The 2 inch Ampex 456 was actually in LA and was only baked for 12 hours but
that was back in 2006-7. The 1/4 inch we have in our archive in NZ and as
I've said I bake this for much longer these days. The shipping would have
taken a lot longer and so I'm sure that is a factor in the state of them.

This stock was the main tape used for preservation back in the mid-1990's
until it become apparent, from others experiences, that this was not good
stock. I can also say that not all of it is sticky either, sometimes I am
surprised that tape in sequential order is SSS, then nothing....all out of
the same box that was shipped.

Cheers
Marie

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Scott Phillips <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> I think among other things that we can't control are the shipping
> conditions of the tape, both when new and shipped, after opened and used,
> or perhaps later shipped years later to someone else. Toss in likely louse
> storage in a closet somewhere years later?
>
> No telling how long it could have sat on a loading dock at UPS or FedEx at
> any time, hot sun or freezing rain. I once had to return 2 full pallets of
> new 2" tape to Ampex, it was all sticky and shedding. It turned out it had
> sat in the Florida sun for 3 days baking, with afternoon rains every day as
> it does there. Sure, the pallet was covered, no obvious water marks or
> visible damage. Ampex replaced it all. One key point was not all of the
> tape was from the same batch, but all shed like crazy....
>
> ---Scott Phillips
>
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 2:43 PM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > Wow, I wonder what makes the tapes go so much more sticky in NZ?
> >
> > -- Tom Fine
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Phillips" <
> > [log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Friday, January 29, 2016 3:29 PM
> >
> > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Ampex 456 Grand Master: What To Expect?
> >
> >
> > Interesting!
> >
> > For yet another data point, I have a client in Colorado that has several
> > hundred 2" and perhaps 100 1/4" 456 tapes dating from the late 1970's
> > through perhaps 1990. None of them have ever gone SSS at all, I've seen
> the
> > tapes myself. On the other hand, I worked for years in the Miami Fla.
> area
> > and saw plenty of the problem there. Both were constantly in climate
> > controlled rooms except when removed for use. Storage temperatures were
> > about 72 degrees F in Miami, more like 62 degrees F in Colorado, with a
> few
> > rare dips colder during power failures during the winter. The big
> standout
> > difference? The humidity in the case of the Colorado tapes was rarely
> over
> > 25%, in Miami it was always much higher. These are not the only examples
> > I've run across like this.
> >
> > Not saying that is absolutely the reason, but the Humid storage and use
> > conditions I've personally seen made a world of difference with 456. I
> will
> > say I've never had to bake a 2" tape longer than 24 hours anywhere, but I
> > don't deal with the quantity Marie or Richard do. Having said this, I
> > haven't needed to repeatedly bake the same tapes over years of time,
> once a
> > good transfer was made. I can easily imagine that it is different if
> > repeated baking and transfer of a particular tape over and over the years
> > might need longer and longer times, the chemistry of the degradation
> > marches on....
> >
> > The discussions on this topic have been most enlightening. There is so
> much
> > to do, and the free flow of information and ideas helps us all.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Scott Phillips
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 1:23 PM, Marie O'Connell <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > I am talking mainly 1/4 inch but also 2 inch Ampex 456.
> >> Marie
> >>
> >> On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 6:12 AM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Are you guys talking about 2" 456? I haven't had this extreme a
> problem
> >> > with 1/4" 456 and 406. The one I've had to go 24+ hours with is Scotch
> >> 227.
> >> > I just recently did some circa early 1980s 456, two 7" reels. They
> >> played
> >> > just fine and left no residue I could see on the cleaning swabs, with
> 12
> >> > hours baking and 12 hours cool-down.
> >> >
> >> > -- Tom Fine
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ted Kendall" <
> >> > [log in to unmask]>
> >> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >> > Sent: Friday, January 29, 2016 11:12 AM
> >> >
> >> > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Ampex 456 Grand Master: What To Expect?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > This chimes with my own experience - days are required now where once
> >> >> hours sufficed.
> >> >>
> >> >> About a week is the minimum bake that has had any real effect for
> some
> >> >> time now.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marie O'Connell" <
> >> [log in to unmask]
> >> >
> >> >> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >> >> Sent: Friday, January 29, 2016 5:20 AM
> >> >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Ampex 456 Grand Master: What To Expect?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Hello
> >> >>
> >> >> See Ampex 456, bake Ampex 456, loathe it! We have hundreds of tapes
> in
> >> >> our
> >> >> collections on this stock, and it continues to come in with the new
> >> >> accessions.
> >> >>
> >> >> I bake them now for about 7 to 14 days at 52C for more success,
> >> otherwise
> >> >> I
> >> >> have to keep putting them back in the oven. 12 hours does nothing
> >> anymore
> >> >> and our vaults are humidity/temperature controlled. The really bad
> >> ones I
> >> >> do use a pellon wipe and then, if required, my isopropyl technique
> >> (last
> >> >> resort). My low friction Studers have eliminated much use of iso.
> >> >>
> >> >> Cheers
> >> >> Marie
> >> >>
> >> >> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 11:13 AM, Richard L. Hess <
> >> >> [log in to unmask]>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi, Steve,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> The Ampex patent has in its claims both 50 and 54 °C. That was where
> >> the
> >> >>> higher temperature came from. It is still well below the Tg of the
> >> base
> >> >>> film. (67 - 81 °C) (
> >> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylene_terephthalate)
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Ampex patent here:
> >> >>> http://www.richardhess.net/restoration_notes/USP5236790.pdf
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On 1/28/2016 4:10 PM, Steve Greene wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I used to bake 15" quad reels with a high degree of success at 120F
> >> for
> >> >>>> 24
> >> >>>> hours, with a long ramp down time of another 24 hours before
> handling
> >> >>>> it.
> >> >>>> Knowing what I know now, I might go as high as 125F. 54C (130F)
> seems
> >> >>>> high
> >> >>>> to me.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Steve
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Steve Greene
> >> >>>> Audiovisual Archivist
> >> >>>> Nixon Presidential Library and Museum
> >> >>>> National Archives and Records Administration
> >> >>>> (301) 837-1772
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 8:38 PM, Corey Bailey <
> >> [log in to unmask]>
> >> >>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Hi David,
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> My experience with baking 2" tapes comes from my experiences at
> >> Warner
> >> >>>>> Bros. Studios, Burbank, CA. As Richard Hess said: "456 is the
> poster
> >> >>>>> child
> >> >>>>> for SSS" so, don't ask, just bake it.! Regarding the question of
> how
> >> >>>>> long
> >> >>>>> to bake is dependent on the size and type of oven, the number of
> >> tapes
> >> >>>>> to
> >> >>>>> be baked at one time and (obviously) the condition of the tapes
> >> >>>>> themselves.
> >> >>>>> The oven at WB is commercial grade, capable of baking 34, 10.5"
> >> reels
> >> >>>>> at
> >> >>>>> a
> >> >>>>> time. I've baked as few as two reels on up to an oven full. For
> two
> >> >>>>> reels
> >> >>>>> of 2", the average baking time is 18 - 24 hours. I would suggest
> >> that
> >> >>>>> you
> >> >>>>> only bake as many tapes as you can process in a day so that the
> >> >>>>> stabilization process is as fresh as possible. You mentioned
> leader
> >> >>>>> breaks.
> >> >>>>> Expect any splices to have to be replaced after baking. Not always
> >> the
> >> >>>>> case
> >> >>>>> but, build the labor cost into your budget.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Cheers!
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Corey
> >> >>>>> Corey Bailey Audio Engineering
> >> >>>>> www.baileyzone.net
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> On 1/27/2016 8:29 AM, David Crosthwait wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Hello Tom and Richard,
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> In my digging through a church archive yesterday with new
> clients,
> >> we
> >> >>>>>> uncovered many reels of 24 track on 2" among other audio tapes.
> One
> >> >>>>>> tape of
> >> >>>>>> interest I have with me, destined to a comrade here in town who
> is
> >> as
> >> >>>>>> passionate about vintage audiotape recovery as we are with
> >> videotape,
> >> >>>>>> is a
> >> >>>>>> 24 track on "Ampex Grand Master" 456 from 1988 in a cardboard
> box.
> >> It
> >> >>>>>> has
> >> >>>>>> track assignments within. The tape has leader breaks. In a test
> of
> >> >>>>>> sorts,
> >> >>>>>> we are going to link this up with a 1" C of the concert (same
> >> >>>>>> production,
> >> >>>>>> same date) to create a new stereo mixed version. I've done this
> >> before
> >> >>>>>> so I
> >> >>>>>> am familiar with the routine. The question to you two (and
> others)
> >> is:
> >> >>>>>> What
> >> >>>>>> should we expect from a stickiness standpoint (if any) from 1988
> >> >>>>>> vintage
> >> >>>>>> "Grand Master" 456?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> The client has multiple reels of this concert so this is a test
> of
> >> >>>>>> sorts.
> >> >>>>>> The 24 track will create a ProTools session for the mix down and
> >> new
> >> >>>>>> stereo
> >> >>>>>> imaging (5.1?), to be done at the client's facility. I'm going to
> >> be
> >> >>>>>> remastering the 1" C today to file (it too is in stereo albeit
> with
> >> >>>>>> weak
> >> >>>>>> L-R imaging as viewed on the phase scope). It's a full orchestra
> >> with
> >> >>>>>> choir.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Thank you.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Best Regards,
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> David Crosthwait
> >> >>>>>> DC Video
> >> >>>>>> Transferring NTSC, PAL& SECAM Two Inch Quad and Helical Source
> >> Tapes
> >> >>>>>> (and More)!
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> http://www.dcvideo.com/what-we-do
> >> >>>>>> [log in to unmask]
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> www.dcvideo.com
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Follow DC Video on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dcvideo
> >> >>>>>> Follow DC Video on YouTube:
> >> http://www.youtube.com/user/dcvideoonline
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> --
> >> >>>>
> >> >>> Richard L. Hess email: [log in to unmask]
> >> >>> Aurora, Ontario, Canada 647 479 2800
> >> >>> http://www.richardhess.com/tape/contact.htm
> >> >>> Quality tape transfers -- even from hard-to-play tapes.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >>
>