OK, Jamie, but I hope you also listen to the final result!
The "sound of a voice" can often be a very good way of telling initially
that something is wrong. You generally cannot tune something up using just
that. But, for example, you can often hear immediately that a 78 is
playing at the wrong pitch. A quarter tone off makes huge changes to a
human voice.
Best,
John
On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 12:18 PM, Jamie Howarth <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> By ear trying to hear 1 beat in 10 seconds is not equivalent to actual
> accuracy as provided by an FFT measurement. Personally I have excellent
> pitch deviation recognition- there was a recent test at the last AES and I
> scored perfectly down to relative deviations of 0.5hz at 440.
> I still use the FFT.
>
>
> Please pardon the mispellings and occassional insane word substitution I'm
> on an iPhone
>
> > On Apr 25, 2017, at 09:03, [log in to unmask] wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Please pardon the mispellings and occassional insane word substitution
> I'm on an iPhone
> >
> >> On Apr 25, 2017, at 08:35, John Haley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>
> >> << but knowing when the recorded sound of the sung voices and
> instruments
> >> are jiving with how they work naturally -- since, after all, these were
> >> humans interacting with their instruments (one also has to know about
> the
> >> instruments of the time, of course). >>
> >>
> >> I agree, totally. For example, on a solo violin recording, you can
> >> sometimes identify an open string.
> >
> > If it's an open string it's likely reliable as a pitch reference, more
> so than guessing the key. Much more reliable than the "sound of a voice".
> The open A on a violin is gonna be right because if it's out of tune the
> session stops.
> >> That t least gets you in the right
> >> key. Identifying the key something is performed in is a different
> exercise
> >> than getting the pitch right. But often that is obvious from the sound
> of
> >> a voice, for a song.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Bailey, Mark <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>>>> While I appreciate all the research and discussion, the essential
> method
> >>> is
> >>> still your ears. <<
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> For us that's absolutely true as well -- the ears are the starting
> point,
> >>> but also need to have the final say. We use the keyboard for a starting
> >>> reference pitch, if needed, especially after elongated periods of
> working
> >>> with many different recordings, but never to follow along etc. And, of
> >>> course, it's not just about hearing pitch, but knowing when the
> recorded
> >>> sound of the sung voices and instruments are jiving with how they work
> >>> naturally -- since, after all, these were humans interacting with their
> >>> instruments (one also has to know about the instruments of the time, of
> >>> course).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Izotope RX5 is now on our purchasing list!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> Mark
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Mark Bailey, head
> >>> Historical Sound Recordings
> >>> Irving S. Gilmore Music Library
> >>> Yale University
> >>> [log in to unmask]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <
> >>> [log in to unmask]> on behalf of John Haley <
> [log in to unmask]>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 10:43 AM
> >>> To: [log in to unmask]
> >>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
> >>>
> >>> Sliding pitch is very easily fixed now on Izotope RX5. It's a snap.
> >>>
> >>> While I appreciate all the research and discussion, the essential
> method is
> >>> still your ears. I have no difficulty distinguishing pitch errors as
> small
> >>> as half a percent (.5) and have done my own presets on Izotope down to
> that
> >>> amount, and even .2 (point two) where more fine tuning is needed. If
> you
> >>> can play along with something on the electronic keyboard, even with one
> >>> finger, the direction that the pitch needs to be adjusted becomes
> really
> >>> obvious. It becomes quite objective, not subjective. I think being
> able
> >>> to do this easily is just a matter of listening and practice.
> >>>
> >>> The gadgets and guidelines should all be used as an aid, not as the
> final
> >>> word.
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> John
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 9:22 AM, Bailey, Mark <[log in to unmask]>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Dear All,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I also want to offer my thanks, mostly as an observer, for this
> important
> >>>> and interesting conversation. Just yesterday in the Yale Historical
> Sound
> >>>> Recordings studio I was having to adjust the speed of two Vladimir de
> >>>> Pachmann 12" 78s -- one higher and the other lower (two different
> >>> recording
> >>>> companies). And there are times, working with early 7" or 10"
> recordings
> >>> of
> >>>> singers, that playing something at 78rpms is almost overwhelmingly the
> >>>> exception, rather than the rule.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> In the Yale HSR studio we use several factors to determine pitch,
> which
> >>> in
> >>>> some cases -- as has been acknowledged in this thread -- involves
> degrees
> >>>> of instinct and guesswork. Since I'm also a professional conductor and
> >>>> performer, I rely heavily on my own ears and knowledge of performance
> >>>> practice, but also with the help of an in-studio keyboard that is
> usually
> >>>> fixed at A=440, but can be adjusted to any pitch level as needed (and
> >>> also
> >>>> has the option of several temperaments, which comes in handy for
> >>>> baroque-period instrument listening instruction). It is incredibly
> >>> helpful
> >>>> to remember, of course, as others will point out, that A=440 wasn't
> >>>> standard everywhere at the turn of the century (even though many who
> do
> >>>> digital transfers default to it) -- Nellie Melba being a case and
> point
> >>> --
> >>>> and also, at least when it comes to singers, a fair number would
> >>> transpose
> >>>> up or down a step or even a half step depending on the aria and vocal
> >>>> circumstances.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> As best we can in the Yale studio, we also try to take these factors
> into
> >>>> account. As for recordings that change pitch during the course of a
> side,
> >>>> some of the newer technical information offered here has also been
> quite
> >>>> interesting.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> All best wishes
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Mark Bailey, head
> >>>> Historical Sound Recordings
> >>>> Irving S. Gilmore Music Library
> >>>> Yale University
> >>>> [log in to unmask]
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ________________________________
> >>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <
> >>>> [log in to unmask]> on behalf of Corey Bailey <
> >>>> [log in to unmask]>
> >>>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:45 PM
> >>>> To: [log in to unmask]
> >>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
> >>>>
> >>>> The original question was posted from someone in the US. So yes, all
> of
> >>>> the (very interesting) answers were based on "US-centered" speeds.
> >>>>
> >>>> Corey
> >>>> Corey Bailey Audio Engineering
> >>>> www.baileyzone.net<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/
> >>> url?u=http-3A__www.baileyzone.net&d=DwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=
> >>> 951BIhm_S_xT_hJlCWG6le5HUwYfuQaYiiNjkZyEHaM&m=
> >>> vP2W26Fj23vKsKhQZCL0qR5WIXeDt1d2XF2d7jzBjIE&s=
> >>> r2Y1XaMZ7wh7D4l42kn0vBk76kjsHwlvR9-srBBi8B8&e= >
> >>>> Family Audio Preservation - Audio Engineering<https://
> >>> urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.baileyzone.
> >>> net_&d=DwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=951BIhm_S_xT_
> >>> hJlCWG6le5HUwYfuQaYiiNjkZyEHaM&m=vP2W26Fj23vKsKhQZCL0qR5WIXeDt1
> >>> d2XF2d7jzBjIE&s=GI_WC7uZP1L3NVqef9xI3kf4g9AjimgaxkCuIMpqfB8&e= >
> >>>> www.baileyzone.net<http://www.baileyzone.net>
> >>>> The purpose of this site is to raise awareness about the need to
> archive
> >>>> audio and video recordings which contain your family history. Of prime
> >>>> importance is ...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 4/24/2017 3:42 PM, George Brock-Nannestad wrote:
> >>>>> From: Patent Tactics, George Brock-Nannestad
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hello,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> all very US-centered, isn't it? The 78.26 comes from a certain number
> >>> of
> >>>> poles
> >>>>> in a synchronous motor combined with simple ratios in the gearbox
> that
> >>>> changes
> >>>>> the rpm from the motor to the target rpm for the turntable. But it is
> >>>> only this
> >>>>> figure at 60 Hz mains frequency. If you had a slow-speed synchronous
> >>>> motor run
> >>>>> off 60 Hz the closest to 78.00 is 78.26 rpm. If you use a stroboscope
> >>>> for 60 Hz
> >>>>> under a 120 Hz light (goes for fluorescent or low-power incandescent
> >>>> lamps off
> >>>>> the mains), you can only get a stationary ring at 78.26.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In the not insignificant parts of the world where they use 50 Hz as
> the
> >>>> mains
> >>>>> frequency, the corresponding figure would be 77.92 rpm. You need a
> >>>> different
> >>>>> stroboscope for this and also the slow-speed synchronous motor would
> >>>> have a
> >>>>> different number of poles. Aida Favia-Artsay knew, and her Caruso
> >>>> stroboscopes
> >>>>> came in both varieties.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The Victor Talking Machine Company is on record in the acoustic
> period
> >>> as
> >>>>> specifying 76 rpm for recording and 78 rpm for reproduction of the
> >>>> recording
> >>>>> obtained. Some of their customers obviously did not have absolute
> >>> pitch.
> >>>> In the
> >>>>> acoustic period of the Gramophone Company, the speed was checked
> every
> >>>> morning
> >>>>> by means of a piece of cigarette paper under the wax while cutting
> and
> >>>> counting
> >>>>> the revolutions for a minute. They preferred 78 rpm!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In the United Kingdom, the Old Philharmonic Pitch (which corresponded
> >>> to
> >>>> an a4
> >>>>> of 452 Hz (give or take a few) survived in the military bands until
> ca.
> >>>> 1926,
> >>>>> when they also changed to the New Philharmonic Pitch at 439 Hz. If
> you
> >>>> hear
> >>>>> Nellie Melba sing accompanied by the Band of the Coldstream Guards in
> >>>> 1905 with
> >>>>> the key indicated, you can pitch it absolutely correctly when you
> play
> >>>> it: they
> >>>>> used the Old Philharmonic Pitch. Columbia recorded a lot of military
> >>>> bands, and
> >>>>> they abandoned the 80 rpm speed for 78 rpm at around the same time
> the
> >>>> bands
> >>>>> changed tuning. The interesting thing is that the fraction 78/80 is
> >>> very
> >>>> nearly
> >>>>> the same as the fraction 439/452, in other words if you played a
> >>>> Columbia band
> >>>>> record in 1932 you would not know whether it was an early recording
> >>>> slowed down
> >>>>> to 78 or whether it was actually a new recording with the new pitch
> and
> >>>> the new
> >>>>> speed. This is what I habitually in my workshops call "the dialectic
> >>>> triangle:
> >>>>> speed, key, and standard pitch".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I rarely comment these days, but this issue is very important.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Best wishes,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> George
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> 78.26 did not become a standard speed until electric motors were
> used
> >>> in
> >>>>>> cutter and playback turntables. In the acoustic era, 78 usually
> meant
> >>>> 78.00.
> >>>>>> But, if you´re using a modern turntable like, say, a Technics SP-15,
> >>> 78
> >>>>>> actually is 78.26, and the percentage of change must be calculated
> >>> from
> >>>>>> that.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gary
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ____________________________
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gary Galo
> >>>>>> Audio Engineer Emeritus
> >>>>>> The Crane School of Music
> >>>>>> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
> >>>>>> Arnold Schoenberg
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
> >>>>>> Igor Markevitch
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> From: DAVID BURNHAM [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 6:05 PM
> >>>>>> To: Gary A. Galo
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> That's fine, but the standard speed for 78s IS 78.26; I don't know
> if
> >>>> 80RPM
> >>>>>> records included a fraction. LPs, of course are always based on 33
> >>> 1/3
> >>>> RPM,
> >>>>>> so there would be no reason to relate anything to 33.00 RPM. I'm
> sure
> >>>> the
> >>>>>> original question was searching for a corrective adjustment to adapt
> >>>> from
> >>>>>> standard 78 to Columbia's 80 RPM, but that's only a guess.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> db
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Monday, April 24, 2017 5:56 PM, Gary A. Galo
> >>>>>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I specifically said 78.00 in my reply. I assumed that if you meant
> >>>> 78.26, you
> >>>>>> would have said so.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gary
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
> >>>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
> >]
> >>>> On Behalf
> >>>>>> Of DAVID BURNHAM
> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 4:44 PM
> >>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Are you basing that on 78.00 RPM or 78.26 RPM?
> >>>>>> Not challenging you just a question.
> >>>>>> db
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Monday, April 24, 2017 4:18 PM, Gary A. Galo
> >>>>>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A quarter tone is 3%, a half tone is 6%, and a whole tone is 12%.
> So,
> >>>> the
> >>>>>> difference between 78.00 and 80 is just a hair under a quarter
> tone. A
> >>>> quarter
> >>>>>> tone would be 80.34; a half tone is 82.68..
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gary
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ____________________________
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gary Galo
> >>>>>> Audio Engineer Emeritus
> >>>>>> The Crane School of Music
> >>>>>> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
> >>>>>> Arnold Schoenberg
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
> >>>>>> Igor Markevitch
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
> >>>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
> >]
> >>>> On Behalf
> >>>>>> Of James Roth
> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 3:31 PM
> >>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>>> Subject: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hello everybody,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Can anyone tell me how many half-tones up from 78 rpm to 80 rpm?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks.
> >>>>>> Ben Roth
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
>
|