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ARSCLIST  April 2017

ARSCLIST April 2017

Subject:

Re: How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm

From:

George Brock-Nannestad <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 25 Apr 2017 12:36:24 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (295 lines)

From: Patent Tactics, George Brock-Nannestad



Hello,

for those who would like to dig deeper into these problems, they could do worse 
than going to

http://charm.cch.kcl.ac.uk/redist/pdf/s3Brock-Nannestad.pdf

for an overview and many literature references. I also criticise modern 
research for blithely accepting commercial transfers of original records to CD 
without any attempt of discussing the value of the transfer in the first place. 
I have seen the first phd-theses that use YouTube transfers as their sources!

Best wishes,


George

------------------------

Steve Smolian wrote:



> The new technology supplies a different solution.  I now use a Technics
> SL-1200-2 with KAB's modification that adds the 78 rpm speed, replacing SP-15
> with its push button incremental speed adjustment. The 1200-2 uses a slider
> with a detent for 78, 33 or 45, depending on the chosen basic speed.  
> 
> I run a Korg guitar tuner (about $ 50) and use the1200-2's slider to change
> record speed while it is playing.  I choose a pre-tuned rather than variable
> instrument- a  woodwind or piano, not a voice or violin, if possible.   The
> tuner works by listening to your speakers.   
> 
> When the record is playing at a speed at which the tuner's needle stabilizes
> at zero, I've adjusted the speed to a definite half-step at A-440 (the
> frequency of the tuner can be adjusted to 435 or whatever you like.)  It's
> easy enough to make a second pass at a half step higher and/or lower as well
> and record all three, should you wish to do so. 
> 
> The crucial step beforehand is to center the record.  I had a machine shop
> grind down the spindle 1/16th and move the edge of the record with my
> fingernail until the cartridge no longer swings.  I also had made a metal
> sleeve that fits over the spindle that restores the original diameter.  The
> machine shop behind my studio made this.  The spindle mechanism for the 1200-2
> is about $ 60.  It's a bit tricky to swap out the original spindle with the
> replacement, so I paid a technician to do this. Another $ 50.  I believe Dave
> Cawley offers one of these.
> 
> Among other things, this process bypasses the Continental 78 rpm and U.S.
> 78.26 speed issue.
> 
> Mr. Cawley has back-ordered an outrigger for the 1200-2 that will accommodate
> my old but recently internally rewired SME 16" arm that will replace the 12"
> one Technics sup[plied.  
> 
> This process does not affect stylus choice, but, if you come to this year's
> ARSC conference this year, my talk Saturday includes an important disclosure
> regarding that issue.  
> 
> Anyone want to by a few not-recently-used pitch pipes?  SP-15s?
> 
> If you need a digital readout of the speed you use for your metadata, products
> are available to do this at about $ 300.
> 
> As I do not have perfect pitch, I find this process very much more efficient. 
> The remaining problem is adjusting a record side that changes speed while
> playing.  
> 
> Steve Smolian 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Haley
> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 9:12 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
> 
> Ben,
> 
> The advice is all pertinent, but here's some simpler advice.   A great many
> 78's do not play at 78 or 78.26 RPM.  They are irregular, and it is always
> best to check the pitch and correct it by ear.  I use a Yamaha electronic
> piano that has pitch at exactly A= 440, top dead center.  With careful
> listening, you can hear very, very small pitch differences--not really that
> hard.  This is far more reliable than trying to figure it out based on
> playback speed, with all the charts and math.  At best, that will just give
> you a good jumping off place.
> Getting the pitch right is VERY important.  A quarter tone off drastically
> changes the sound of most voices and a great many instruments.  that can also
> can change the emotional character of the music quite a bit.  Larger pitch
> variations can easily wreck everything.
> 
> A different issue is: what is the right pitch?   That is another lengthy
> discussion.
> 
> Best,
> John Haley
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 8:45 PM, Corey Bailey <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> 
> > The original question was posted from someone in the US. So yes, all 
> > of the (very interesting) answers were based on "US-centered" speeds.
> >
> > Corey
> > Corey Bailey Audio Engineering
> > www.baileyzone.net
> >
> >
> > On 4/24/2017 3:42 PM, George Brock-Nannestad wrote:
> >
> >> From: Patent Tactics, George Brock-Nannestad
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> all very US-centered, isn't it? The 78.26 comes from a certain number 
> >> of poles in a synchronous motor combined with simple ratios in the 
> >> gearbox that changes the rpm from the motor to the target rpm for the 
> >> turntable. But it is only this figure at 60 Hz mains frequency. If 
> >> you had a slow-speed synchronous motor run off 60 Hz the closest to 
> >> 78.00 is 78.26 rpm. If you use a stroboscope for
> >> 60 Hz
> >> under a 120 Hz light (goes for fluorescent or low-power incandescent 
> >> lamps off the mains), you can only get a stationary ring at 78.26.
> >>
> >> In the not insignificant parts of the world where they use 50 Hz as 
> >> the mains frequency, the corresponding figure would be 77.92 rpm. You 
> >> need a different stroboscope for this and also the slow-speed 
> >> synchronous motor would have a different number of poles. Aida 
> >> Favia-Artsay knew, and her Caruso stroboscopes came in both 
> >> varieties.
> >>
> >> The Victor Talking Machine Company is on record in the acoustic 
> >> period as specifying 76 rpm for recording and 78 rpm for reproduction 
> >> of the recording obtained. Some of their customers obviously did not 
> >> have absolute pitch.
> >> In the
> >> acoustic period of the Gramophone Company, the speed was checked 
> >> every morning by means of a piece of cigarette paper under the wax 
> >> while cutting and counting the revolutions for a minute. They 
> >> preferred 78 rpm!
> >>
> >> In the United Kingdom, the Old Philharmonic Pitch (which corresponded 
> >> to an a4 of 452 Hz (give or take a few) survived in the military 
> >> bands until ca.
> >> 1926,
> >> when they also changed to the New Philharmonic Pitch at 439 Hz. If 
> >> you hear Nellie Melba sing accompanied by the Band of the Coldstream 
> >> Guards in
> >> 1905 with
> >> the key indicated, you can pitch it absolutely correctly when you 
> >> play
> >> it: they
> >> used the Old Philharmonic Pitch. Columbia recorded a lot of military 
> >> bands, and they abandoned the 80 rpm speed for 78 rpm at around the 
> >> same time the bands changed tuning. The interesting thing is that the 
> >> fraction 78/80 is very nearly the same as the fraction 439/452, in 
> >> other words if you played a Columbia band record in 1932 you would 
> >> not know whether it was an early recording slowed down to 78 or 
> >> whether it was actually a new recording with the new pitch and the 
> >> new speed. This is what I habitually in my workshops call "the 
> >> dialectic
> >> triangle:
> >> speed, key, and standard pitch".
> >>
> >> I rarely comment these days, but this issue is very important.
> >>
> >> Best wishes,
> >>
> >>
> >> George
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> 78.26 did not become a standard speed until electric motors were 
> >>> used in cutter and playback turntables. In the acoustic era, 78 
> >>> usually meant 78.00.
> >>> But, if you´re using a modern turntable like, say, a Technics SP-15, 
> >>> 78 actually is 78.26, and the percentage of change must be 
> >>> calculated from that.
> >>>
> >>> Gary
> >>>
> >>> ____________________________
> >>>
> >>> Gary Galo
> >>> Audio Engineer Emeritus
> >>> The Crane School of Music
> >>> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
> >>>
> >>> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
> >>> Arnold Schoenberg
> >>>
> >>> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
> >>> Igor Markevitch
> >>>
> >>> From: DAVID BURNHAM [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> >>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 6:05 PM
> >>> To: Gary A. Galo
> >>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
> >>>
> >>> That's fine, but the standard speed for 78s IS 78.26; I don't know 
> >>> if 80RPM records included a fraction.  LPs, of course are always 
> >>> based on 33 1/3 RPM, so there would be no reason to relate anything 
> >>> to 33.00 RPM.  I'm sure the original question was searching for a 
> >>> corrective adjustment to adapt from standard 78 to Columbia's 80 
> >>> RPM, but that's only a guess.
> >>>
> >>> db
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Monday, April 24, 2017 5:56 PM, Gary A. Galo 
> >>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I specifically said 78.00 in my reply. I assumed that if you meant 
> >>> 78.26, you would have said so.
> >>>
> >>> Gary
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List 
> >>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] 
> >>> On Behalf Of DAVID BURNHAM
> >>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 4:44 PM
> >>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
> >>>
> >>> Are you basing that on 78.00 RPM or 78.26 RPM?
> >>> Not challenging you just a question.
> >>> db
> >>>
> >>>      On Monday, April 24, 2017 4:18 PM, Gary A. Galo 
> >>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> A quarter tone is 3%, a half tone is 6%, and a whole tone is 12%. 
> >>> So, the difference between 78.00 and 80 is just a hair under a 
> >>> quarter tone. A quarter tone would be 80.34; a half tone is 82.68..
> >>>
> >>> Gary
> >>>
> >>> ____________________________
> >>>
> >>> Gary Galo
> >>> Audio Engineer Emeritus
> >>> The Crane School of Music
> >>> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
> >>>
> >>> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
> >>> Arnold Schoenberg
> >>>
> >>> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
> >>> Igor Markevitch
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List 
> >>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] 
> >>> On Behalf Of James Roth
> >>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 3:31 PM
> >>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >>> Subject: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
> >>>
> >>> Hello everybody,
> >>>
> >>> Can anyone tell me how many half-tones up from 78 rpm to 80 rpm?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks.
> >>> Ben Roth
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >

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