LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for ARSCLIST Archives


ARSCLIST Archives

ARSCLIST Archives


ARSCLIST@LISTSERV.LOC.GOV


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

ARSCLIST Home

ARSCLIST Home

ARSCLIST  April 2017

ARSCLIST April 2017

Subject:

Re: How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm

From:

"Gary A. Galo" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 25 Apr 2017 16:55:42 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (1 lines)

John is absolutely right.  A quarter tone is the difference between Melchior and Mickey Mouse.

Gary

Gary Galo
Audio Engineer Emeritus
The Crane School of Music
SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676

"Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
Arnold Schoenberg

"A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
Igor Markevitch


________________________________
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of John Haley <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 12:48:15 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm

OK, Jamie, but I hope you also listen to the final result!

The "sound of a voice" can often be a very good way of telling initially
that something is wrong.  You generally cannot tune something up using just
that.  But, for example, you can often hear immediately that a 78 is
playing at the wrong pitch.  A quarter tone off makes huge changes to a
human voice.
Best,
John


On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 12:18 PM, Jamie Howarth <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> By ear trying to hear 1 beat in 10 seconds is not equivalent to actual
> accuracy as provided by an FFT measurement. Personally I have excellent
> pitch deviation recognition- there was a recent test at the last AES and I
> scored perfectly down to relative deviations of 0.5hz at 440.
> I still use the FFT.
>
>
> Please pardon the mispellings and occassional insane word substitution I'm
> on an iPhone
>
> > On Apr 25, 2017, at 09:03, [log in to unmask] wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Please pardon the mispellings and occassional insane word substitution
> I'm on an iPhone
> >
> >> On Apr 25, 2017, at 08:35, John Haley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>
> >> << but knowing when the recorded sound of the sung voices and
> instruments
> >> are jiving with how they work naturally -- since, after all, these were
> >> humans interacting with their instruments (one also has to know about
> the
> >> instruments of the time, of course). >>
> >>
> >> I agree, totally.  For example, on a solo violin recording, you can
> >> sometimes identify an open string.
> >
> > If it's an open string it's likely reliable as a pitch reference, more
> so than guessing the key. Much more reliable than the "sound of a voice".
> The open A on a violin is gonna be right because if it's out of tune the
> session stops.
> >> That t least gets you in the right
> >> key.  Identifying the key something is performed in is a different
> exercise
> >> than getting the pitch right.  But often that is obvious from the sound
> of
> >> a voice, for a song.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> John
> >>
> >> ​
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Bailey, Mark <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>>>> While I appreciate all the research and discussion, the essential
> method
> >>> is
> >>> still your ears.  <<
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> For us that's absolutely true as well -- the ears are the starting
> point,
> >>> but also need to have the final say. We use the keyboard for a starting
> >>> reference pitch, if needed, especially after elongated periods of
> working
> >>> with many different recordings, but never to follow along etc. And, of
> >>> course, it's not just about hearing pitch, but knowing when the
> recorded
> >>> sound of the sung voices and instruments are jiving with how they work
> >>> naturally -- since, after all, these were humans interacting with their
> >>> instruments (one also has to know about the instruments of the time, of
> >>> course).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Izotope RX5 is now on our purchasing list!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> Mark
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Mark Bailey, head
> >>> Historical Sound Recordings
> >>> Irving S. Gilmore Music Library
> >>> Yale University
> >>> [log in to unmask]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <
> >>> [log in to unmask]> on behalf of John Haley <
> [log in to unmask]>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2017 10:43 AM
> >>> To: [log in to unmask]
> >>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
> >>>
> >>> Sliding pitch is very easily fixed now on Izotope RX5.  It's a snap.
> >>>
> >>> While I appreciate all the research and discussion, the essential
> method is
> >>> still your ears.  I have no difficulty distinguishing pitch errors as
> small
> >>> as half a percent (.5) and have done my own presets on Izotope down to
> that
> >>> amount, and even .2 (point two) where more fine tuning is needed.  If
> you
> >>> can play along with something on the electronic keyboard, even with one
> >>> finger, the direction that the pitch needs to be adjusted becomes
> really
> >>> obvious.  It becomes quite objective, not subjective.  I think being
> able
> >>> to do this easily is just a matter of listening and practice.
> >>>
> >>> The gadgets and guidelines should all be used as an aid, not as the
> final
> >>> word.
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> John
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 9:22 AM, Bailey, Mark <[log in to unmask]>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Dear All,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I also want to offer my thanks, mostly as an observer, for this
> important
> >>>> and interesting conversation. Just yesterday in the Yale Historical
> Sound
> >>>> Recordings studio I was having to adjust the speed of two Vladimir de
> >>>> Pachmann 12" 78s -- one higher and the other lower (two different
> >>> recording
> >>>> companies). And there are times, working with early 7" or 10"
> recordings
> >>> of
> >>>> singers, that playing something at 78rpms is almost overwhelmingly the
> >>>> exception, rather than the rule.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> In the Yale HSR studio we use several factors to determine pitch,
> which
> >>> in
> >>>> some cases -- as has been acknowledged in this thread -- involves
> degrees
> >>>> of instinct and guesswork. Since I'm also a professional conductor and
> >>>> performer, I rely heavily on my own ears and knowledge of performance
> >>>> practice, but also with the help of an in-studio keyboard that is
> usually
> >>>> fixed at A=440, but can be adjusted to any pitch level as needed (and
> >>> also
> >>>> has the option of several temperaments, which comes in handy for
> >>>> baroque-period instrument listening instruction). It is incredibly
> >>> helpful
> >>>> to remember, of course, as others will point out, that A=440 wasn't
> >>>> standard everywhere at the turn of the century (even though many who
> do
> >>>> digital transfers default to it) -- Nellie Melba being a case and
> point
> >>> --
> >>>> and also, at least when it comes to singers, a fair number would
> >>> transpose
> >>>> up or down a step or even a half step depending on the aria and vocal
> >>>> circumstances.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> As best we can in the Yale studio, we also try to take these factors
> into
> >>>> account. As for recordings that change pitch during the course of a
> side,
> >>>> some of the newer technical information offered here has also been
> quite
> >>>> interesting.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> All best wishes
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Mark Bailey, head
> >>>> Historical Sound Recordings
> >>>> Irving S. Gilmore Music Library
> >>>> Yale University
> >>>> [log in to unmask]
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ________________________________
> >>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <
> >>>> [log in to unmask]> on behalf of Corey Bailey <
> >>>> [log in to unmask]>
> >>>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 8:45 PM
> >>>> To: [log in to unmask]
> >>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
> >>>>
> >>>> The original question was posted from someone in the US. So yes, all
> of
> >>>> the (very interesting) answers were based on "US-centered" speeds.
> >>>>
> >>>> Corey
> >>>> Corey Bailey Audio Engineering
> >>>> www.baileyzone.net<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/
> >>> url?u=http-3A__www.baileyzone.net&d=DwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=
> >>> 951BIhm_S_xT_hJlCWG6le5HUwYfuQaYiiNjkZyEHaM&m=
> >>> vP2W26Fj23vKsKhQZCL0qR5WIXeDt1d2XF2d7jzBjIE&s=
> >>> r2Y1XaMZ7wh7D4l42kn0vBk76kjsHwlvR9-srBBi8B8&e= >
> >>>> Family Audio Preservation - Audio Engineering<https://
> >>> urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.baileyzone.
> >>> net_&d=DwIFaQ&c=-dg2m7zWuuDZ0MUcV7Sdqw&r=951BIhm_S_xT_
> >>> hJlCWG6le5HUwYfuQaYiiNjkZyEHaM&m=vP2W26Fj23vKsKhQZCL0qR5WIXeDt1
> >>> d2XF2d7jzBjIE&s=GI_WC7uZP1L3NVqef9xI3kf4g9AjimgaxkCuIMpqfB8&e= >
> >>>> www.baileyzone.net<http://www.baileyzone.net>
> >>>> The purpose of this site is to raise awareness about the need to
> archive
> >>>> audio and video recordings which contain your family history. Of prime
> >>>> importance is ...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 4/24/2017 3:42 PM, George Brock-Nannestad wrote:
> >>>>> From: Patent Tactics, George Brock-Nannestad
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hello,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> all very US-centered, isn't it? The 78.26 comes from a certain number
> >>> of
> >>>> poles
> >>>>> in a synchronous motor combined with simple ratios in the gearbox
> that
> >>>> changes
> >>>>> the rpm from the motor to the target rpm for the turntable. But it is
> >>>> only this
> >>>>> figure at 60 Hz mains frequency. If you had a slow-speed synchronous
> >>>> motor run
> >>>>> off 60 Hz the closest to 78.00 is 78.26 rpm. If you use a stroboscope
> >>>> for 60 Hz
> >>>>> under a 120 Hz light (goes for fluorescent or low-power incandescent
> >>>> lamps off
> >>>>> the mains), you can only get a stationary ring at 78.26.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In the not insignificant parts of the world where they use 50 Hz as
> the
> >>>> mains
> >>>>> frequency, the corresponding figure would be 77.92 rpm. You need a
> >>>> different
> >>>>> stroboscope for this and also the slow-speed synchronous motor would
> >>>> have a
> >>>>> different number of poles. Aida Favia-Artsay knew, and her Caruso
> >>>> stroboscopes
> >>>>> came in both varieties.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The Victor Talking Machine Company is on record in the acoustic
> period
> >>> as
> >>>>> specifying 76 rpm for recording and 78 rpm for reproduction of the
> >>>> recording
> >>>>> obtained. Some of their customers obviously did not have absolute
> >>> pitch.
> >>>> In the
> >>>>> acoustic period of the Gramophone Company, the speed was checked
> every
> >>>> morning
> >>>>> by means of a piece of cigarette paper under the wax while cutting
> and
> >>>> counting
> >>>>> the revolutions for a minute. They preferred 78 rpm!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In the United Kingdom, the Old Philharmonic Pitch (which corresponded
> >>> to
> >>>> an a4
> >>>>> of 452 Hz (give or take a few) survived in the military bands until
> ca.
> >>>> 1926,
> >>>>> when they also changed to the New Philharmonic Pitch at 439 Hz. If
> you
> >>>> hear
> >>>>> Nellie Melba sing accompanied by the Band of the Coldstream Guards in
> >>>> 1905 with
> >>>>> the key indicated, you can pitch it absolutely correctly when you
> play
> >>>> it: they
> >>>>> used the Old Philharmonic Pitch. Columbia recorded a lot of military
> >>>> bands, and
> >>>>> they abandoned the 80 rpm speed for 78 rpm at around the same time
> the
> >>>> bands
> >>>>> changed tuning. The interesting thing is that the fraction 78/80 is
> >>> very
> >>>> nearly
> >>>>> the same as the fraction 439/452, in other words if you played a
> >>>> Columbia band
> >>>>> record in 1932 you would not know whether it was an early recording
> >>>> slowed down
> >>>>> to 78 or whether it was actually a new recording with the new pitch
> and
> >>>> the new
> >>>>> speed. This is what I habitually in my workshops call "the dialectic
> >>>> triangle:
> >>>>> speed, key, and standard pitch".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I rarely comment these days, but this issue is very important.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Best wishes,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> George
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> 78.26 did not become a standard speed until electric motors were
> used
> >>> in
> >>>>>> cutter and playback turntables. In the acoustic era, 78 usually
> meant
> >>>> 78.00.
> >>>>>> But, if you´re using a modern turntable like, say, a Technics SP-15,
> >>> 78
> >>>>>> actually is 78.26, and the percentage of change must be calculated
> >>> from
> >>>>>> that.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gary
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ____________________________
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gary Galo
> >>>>>> Audio Engineer Emeritus
> >>>>>> The Crane School of Music
> >>>>>> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
> >>>>>> Arnold Schoenberg
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
> >>>>>> Igor Markevitch
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> From: DAVID BURNHAM [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 6:05 PM
> >>>>>> To: Gary A. Galo
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> That's fine, but the standard speed for 78s IS 78.26; I don't know
> if
> >>>> 80RPM
> >>>>>> records included a fraction.  LPs, of course are always based on 33
> >>> 1/3
> >>>> RPM,
> >>>>>> so there would be no reason to relate anything to 33.00 RPM.  I'm
> sure
> >>>> the
> >>>>>> original question was searching for a corrective adjustment to adapt
> >>>> from
> >>>>>> standard 78 to Columbia's 80 RPM, but that's only a guess.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> db
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Monday, April 24, 2017 5:56 PM, Gary A. Galo
> >>>>>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>  wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I specifically said 78.00 in my reply. I assumed that if you meant
> >>>> 78.26, you
> >>>>>> would have said so.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gary
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
> >>>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
> >]
> >>>> On Behalf
> >>>>>> Of DAVID BURNHAM
> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 4:44 PM
> >>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Are you basing that on 78.00 RPM or 78.26 RPM?
> >>>>>> Not challenging you just a question.
> >>>>>> db
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>    On Monday, April 24, 2017 4:18 PM, Gary A. Galo
> >>>>>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>  wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A quarter tone is 3%, a half tone is 6%, and a whole tone is 12%.
> So,
> >>>> the
> >>>>>> difference between 78.00 and 80 is just a hair under a quarter
> tone. A
> >>>> quarter
> >>>>>> tone would be 80.34; a half tone is 82.68..
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gary
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ____________________________
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Gary Galo
> >>>>>> Audio Engineer Emeritus
> >>>>>> The Crane School of Music
> >>>>>> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
> >>>>>> Arnold Schoenberg
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
> >>>>>> Igor Markevitch
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
> >>>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
> >]
> >>>> On Behalf
> >>>>>> Of James Roth
> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 3:31 PM
> >>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>>> Subject: [ARSCLIST] How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hello everybody,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Can anyone tell me how many half-tones up from 78 rpm to 80 rpm?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks.
> >>>>>> Ben Roth
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
>

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.LOC.GOV

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager