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ARSCLIST  May 2017

ARSCLIST May 2017

Subject:

Re: How many half-tones from 78 rpm to 80 rpm - really

From:

John Gledhill <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 1 May 2017 12:27:34 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (199 lines)

Are you saying that you could walk in and out of a room with material
playing and tell the differences between something that had been shifted
by 0.44%. Such as music or a 1000 hz versus a 1004 hz tone?
And, describe the difference as dramatic?
I find this absolutely fascinating, being somewhat tone deaf myself.

I assume we are not talking about wow or flutter but absolute pitch.

On 5/1/2017 10:56 AM, John Haley wrote:
> Thanks, Michael. The .44 pitch speed/pitch error is a quite significant
> one, even a dramatic one, in terms of its effect on music.
>
> This brings me back to the position I stated earlier in this string, that
> while all the science is dandy, you should be checking pitch individually
> for every 78 record, at least for dubbing work. Without research you
> sometimes can't tell where a record was recorded (which can be different
> from the place of manufacture, as Michael pointed out), whereas the pitch
> is manifest from the record itself and easily ascertained. Using all the
> scientific aids is helpful but doing that without actually checking the
> pitch is ultimately going to lead to errors.
>
> And just checking the pitch is way faster than researching where a record
> was recorded and then doing all the involved math.
>
> While this is off-topic, checking the pitch when dubbing LPs is also a
> great idea. LP pitch is much more standard than 78 pitch, but still not
> totally reliable. So many different companies, employing so many human
> beings, created records, over a long period of time. Nothing is truly
> "standard."
>
> E.g., in past decades, Decca/London Records deliberately released some
> opera recordings way off pitch, just to save record space and jam an opera
> onto two records instead of three. Of course that should never have
> happened at a reputable, big company, but human beings running the company
> made recognizable human decisions. Completely erroneous and misguided, but
> there we are.
>
> Best,
> John
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 10:13 AM, Michael Shoshani<
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
>> Hi John
>>
>> Not so much manufactured as recorded. Strobe discs are dependent on a
>> specific number of lines, which vary according to the frequency of the
>> blinking of the light source. American 60Hz strobe discs require 92 bars,
>> which gives a speed of 78.26 RPM, but in countries where 50Hz is the power
>> frequency, the strobe discs require 77 bars, which gives a speed of 77.92
>> RPM. These are thus the speeds at which electrically driven record players
>> were factory calibrated, and thus the speeds at which the record companies
>> in their respective areas recorded their material.
>>
>> Record companies on both sides of the Atlantic regularly exchanged
>> material; Jack Hylton's HMV records were issued on Victor here, for
>> example, and Duke Ellington's Victor records were issued on HMV there. But
>> these were master pressings, not dubbed and speed-adjusted. Presumably the
>> 0.44% difference in speed is either unnoticed or tolerated by most
>> listeners, since the playing equipment for each would be slightly incorrect
>> for the other country.
>>
>> Michael Shoshani
>> Chicago
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 8:58 AM, John Haley<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Michael, are you saying that 78s manufactured in Europe play at a
>>>
>> different
>>
>>> correct speed than 78's manufactured in the US? I have never heard
>>> anything like that before.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 9:48 AM, Michael Shoshani<
>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Gary,
>>>>
>>>> While the KAB Speed Strobe works independently of the power line
>>>>
>>> frequency,
>>>
>>>> and thus works equally well in 60 Hz and 50 Hz countries in theory, I
>>>>
>>> would
>>>
>>>> submit that in practice it is still geared to the speeds provided on 60
>>>>
>>> Hz
>>>
>>>> turntables, which means that electrically recorded 78s from Europe will
>>>>
>>> be
>>>
>>>> off.
>>>>
>>>> Its specs indicate 78.26 for 78rpm, which is the 60Hz standard;
>>>> Electrically recorded 78s from countries where 50Hz is the power
>>>>
>>> frequency
>>>
>>>> are recorded at 77.92 RPM. Anyone in the UK or Europe, for example,
>>>>
>> who
>>
>>>> uses the SpeedStrobe to set their turntables at 78, will be playing
>>>>
>> their
>>
>>>> locally manufactured records at a speed 0.44% faster than they should
>>>>
>> be
>>
>>> -
>>>
>>>> a slightly greater pitching error than the 0.42% Caruso one. (The
>>>> SpeedStrobe does not offer 77.92, which seems an amazing oversight for
>>>>
>> a
>>
>>>> product intended for worldwide use.)
>>>>
>>>> Michael Shoshani
>>>> Chicago
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 2:40 PM, Gary A. Galo<[log in to unmask]>
>>>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi George,
>>>>>
>>>>> Following Aida Favia-Artsay, the difference between 76.60 (60Hz) and
>>>>>
>>>> 76.92
>>>>
>>>>> (50Hz) is 0.42%. This is an unacceptable pitching error. Are you
>>>>>
>>> telling
>>>
>>>> me
>>>>
>>>>> that every 76.6-rpm Caruso record pitched using her 50 Hz strobe will
>>>>>
>>> be
>>>
>>>>> 0.42% off?
>>>>>
>>>>> It would seem that, for turntables lacking a digital readout, a
>>>>>
>>> sensible
>>>
>>>>> solution is KAB's Speed Strobe:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.kabusa.com/strobe.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> The Speed Strobe comes with its own LED lamp, which is illuminated
>>>>>
>>> with a
>>>
>>>>> quartz-locked AC signal. Therefore, it is not dependent on the power
>>>>>
>>> line
>>>
>>>>> frequency, and will work equally well in 60 Hz and 50 Hz countries.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

--
John Gledhill
BIT WORKS Inc.
905 881 2733
[log in to unmask]
www.bitworks.org

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