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ARSCLIST  July 2017

ARSCLIST July 2017

Subject:

Re: Vinyl Sales DOWN - why? See interesting WSJ article today

From:

Jamie Howarth <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 25 Jul 2017 23:47:39 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (388 lines)

Did not see that review! Where can I find it? 

Please pardon the mispellings and occassional insane word substitution I'm on an iPhone

> On Jul 25, 2017, at 21:57, John Haley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> Gary,
> 
> Richard Hess did a bang-up job of reviewing those DuPre recordings in the
> ARSCJ--see Spring, 2016.
> 
> Best,
> John
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 9:02 PM, Jamie Howarth <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> 
>> HDTracks for sure.
>> Search for Mercury Living Presence and they all pop up. The DuPre is
>> either a set or individuals (2015) the Copland third, the h
>> Hindemith/Schoenberg/Stravinsky, and there's an Eroica in there someplace.
>> 
>> Wish there were more.
>> 
>> Please pardon the mispellings and occassional insane word substitution I'm
>> on an iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jul 25, 2017, at 19:44, Gary A. Galo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Jamie,
>>> 
>>> I would like to buy those MLP transfers that you did with Tom. Who's
>> selling them? Amazon? HD Tracks?
>>> 
>>> Gary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:
>> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jamie Howarth
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 6:41 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Vinyl Sales DOWN - why? See interesting WSJ
>> article today
>>> 
>>> That's certainly true --- and the recent few releases of MLP that we
>> were able to do with Tom Fine (DuPre, Copland, Hindemith/Schoenberg/Stravinsky)
>> from the original 3 tracks are a wonder ---- the recordings sound like they
>> were made last week. So it's possible. But yeah, let me have 20 pounds of
>> Tony Bennett, at 99cts/pound from transfers made who knows when and with
>> little or no attention paid other than to press play?
>>> Unfortunate.
>>> 
>>> We have tried to gin up support for a "from scratch" HD digital model
>> but the vinyl acolytes get in the way. I tell you what --- this year is
>> CES, as much as AES. For the amount those guys pay for one phony power
>> conditioner you could finance the retransfer and restoration of a helluva
>> lot of titles.
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 25, 2017, at 6:30 PM, Gary A. Galo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I certainly agree with the points made by both Dennis D. and John H. I
>> think the superb Mercury CD transfers produced by Wilma Cozart Fine in the
>> early-to-mid 1990s did a lot to kick the rest of the recording industry's
>> butt. Prior to their appearance, a lot of major labels were using
>> production tapes rather than original source material which, combined with
>> 1980s digital technology, produced a lot of crappy-sounding CDs. Going back
>> to original source materials and using the best possible digital technology
>> put the Mercury reissues way ahead of their competitors. Those CDs were so
>> well done that, even after 25 years of improvement in digital audio, they
>> still hold up extremely well. Following on the heels of the Mercury CDs
>> were the RCA Victor Living Stereos, Omega's Everest series, Decca Classic
>> Sound, the revival of EMI's Great Recordings of the Century (this time
>> including new transfers of some of their best stereo recordings), etc.
>>>> 
>>>> Unfortunately, a lot of material transferred to CD in the 1980s was
>> never redone, and all of those bargain-priced boxes from the majors labels
>> often contain a mix of more recent transfers, and the garbage they put out
>> in the '80s. In reissuing the Complete Recordings of Everybody, they only
>> spend money on up-to-date transfers when they have no other choice. There
>> are some exceptions, of course.
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Gary
>>>> 
>>>> ____________________________
>>>> 
>>>> Gary Galo
>>>> Audio Engineer Emeritus
>>>> The Crane School of Music
>>>> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
>>>> 
>>>> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
>>>> Arnold Schoenberg
>>>> 
>>>> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
>>>> Igor Markevitch
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dennis Rooney
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 5:26 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Vinyl Sales DOWN - why? See interesting WSJ
>>>> article today
>>>> 
>>>> To add to the points cited by John Haley, with which I agree, it is
>> important to remember that reissues in the commercial record industry were
>> in general organized by the product management department and not A&R.
>>>> Hence the desire to keep production costs low to maximize per unit
>> profits.
>>>> The use of "last released version" usually meant the re-use of an
>> extant production master (often heavily equalized and dynamically
>> compressed, and often itself a copy of an earlier version) rather than a
>> new transfer from the edited master. When CD reissues began, this was the
>> invariable modus operandi. It was only when widespread criticism of the
>> poor quality of those reissues appeared in the specialist press did A&R
>> take charge of the reissue process and demand that a new a/d transfer be
>> made of original source where possible. From that point, the quality of the
>> resulting CD reissue was dependent on the taste and skill of the assigned
>> reissue producer(s). Plenty of mediocre work was still done but the overall
>> level was certainly lifted.
>>>> 
>>>> Those of us who experienced the transition from 78rpm to Lp are used to
>> the salient characteristics of each medium. A stylus placed on a disc is a
>> familiar experience to us which may occasionally produce a nostalgic
>> memory. However, for those who have ears to hear, those media can be valued
>> and enjoyed while acknowledging their total obsolescence.
>>>> 
>>>> DDR
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 10:02 PM, John Haley <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> So much of this discussion just blows by me.  The whole vinyl trend,
>>>>> which is what it is (and apparently a dying one), is based on the
>>>>> false assumption that somehow analog beats digital.  Both media are
>>>>> worth only what is put into them, but digital is a far more
>>>>> transparent way of reproducing music than any vinyl record can ever
>>>>> be.  Period.  That is simply an absolute scientific truth.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am often appalled at all the waste of resources that has been
>>>>> poured into trying to "resurrect" vinyl by those who are fooling
>>>>> themselves into believing that it is somehow superior.  My vinyl
>>>>> record collection is as large as anyone else's, but for heaven's
>>>>> sake, it is time to let it go when it comes to new releases.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yes, there are plenty of examples where the LP sounds better than the
>> CD.
>>>>> In the early CD era there were technical issues, but it has been a
>>>>> long time since those existed.  Apart from that early era, those
>>>>> examples where the LP sounds better are only because the engineering
>>>>> choices that went into the CD (remastering, etc.) were not up to
>>>>> stuff or were misguided or even uninformed.
>>>>> 
>>>>> There is another layer to all this, which is that almost all analog
>>>>> tape master sources really need to some "sprucing up" to sound their
>>>>> best in today's world, and that kind of work is only done in the
>> digital domain.
>>>>> That means that the master gets converted to hi-def digital in order
>>>>> to perform the necessary work to it.  Many things generally need to
>>>>> be addressed--redoing splices, fixing drop-outs, correcting bad
>>>>> edits, correcting pitch anomalies, addressing deterioration of the
>>>>> tape itself--it's a long list.  Very few master tapes from decades
>>>>> ago survive today in pristine condition.  The idea that an old analog
>>>>> tape will just be dubbed into a record cutting machine strikes me as
>>>>> most unlikely in almost all cases.  There may be people who do that,
>>>>> but I can't come up with any good reason why.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> John Haley
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 6:12 PM, Gary A. Galo <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Agreed! Same with 78s.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:
>>>>>> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Shai Drori
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 5:23 PM
>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Vinyl Sales DOWN - why? See interesting WSJ
>>>>>> article today
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Gary
>>>>>> There is another option, that people buy the LP for it's NOT perfect
>>>>> sound.
>>>>>> I love vinyl for what it is, and also for the non audio visual part
>>>>>> of seeing the turntable turn.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> בברכה,
>>>>>> שי דרורי.
>>>>>> מומחה לשימור ודיגיטציה של אודיו וידאו ופילם 8-35ממ Cheers Shai Drori
>>>>>> Expert digitization services for Audio Video Hi Res scanning for
>>>>>> film 8mm-35mm Timeless Recordings Music Label www.audiovideofilm.com
>>>>>> [log in to unmask] Tripadvisor level 5 contributor, level 10
>>>>>> restaurant expert
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 10:14 PM, Gary A. Galo <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I agree that good vinyl cut from a digital master can sound really
>>>>> great.
>>>>>>> I still play some of those old Telarc LPs cut from the Soundstream
>>>>>>> digital tapes, and they still sound pretty spectacular. But, those
>>>>>>> were made at a time when there was no consumer digital format. The
>>>>>>> only way to offer their digitally-mastered recordings to the
>>>>>>> consumer was on vinyl. If the goal is to get as close as possible
>>>>>>> to the sound of the original master, then vinyl cut from digital
>>>>>>> makes no sense anymore. If a vinyl record cut from a digital master
>>>>>>> sounds better than an accurate digital file or high-res disc made
>>>>>>> from that digital master, then the vinyl is probably hiding
>>>>>>> something on the digital master that we don't like, or masking a
>>>>>>> problem in the master with
>>>>>> something euphonic.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ____________________________
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Gary Galo
>>>>>>> Audio Engineer Emeritus
>>>>>>> The Crane School of Music
>>>>>>> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
>>>>>>> Arnold Schoenberg
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
>>>>>>> Igor Markevitch
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:
>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Shai Drori
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 3:04 PM
>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Vinyl Sales DOWN - why? See interesting WSJ
>>>>>>> article today
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> If I may offer my $0.02 as a consumer this time. Some of the stuff
>>>>>>> on vinyl is there for no reason as new pressing like Herb Alpert.
>>>>>>> Why spend
>>>>>>> $30 on something you can find in the $1 bin? Other stuff is just
>>>>>>> too weird for me to gamble $30 on. With the cost of pressing vinyl
>>>>>>> down to about $2 for high volume, it seems like the record
>>>>>>> companies haven't learned their lesson, and still try to milk a cow
>>>>>>> dry rather than look at what would sustain the niche for many
>>>>>>> years. I buy a lot of vinyl in used stores, I find lots of cool
>>>>>>> stuff I like at prices I am willing to spend. Not $30. As for the
>>>>>>> master being analog or digital, I couldn't care less, and let's
>>>>>>> face it, 99.9999% of the people that would listen to a good quality
>>>>>>> pressing wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Vinyl is noisy
>>>>>>> enough, and personally, I care about the
>>>>>> pressing, not the origin of the master.
>>>>>>> It's 2017, there is a lot of both treasures and garbage that
>>>>>>> originates as analog and digital. A good cut from a digital source
>>>>>>> sound amazing on vinyl, trust me, I got more than a few of those.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> בברכה,
>>>>>>> שי דרורי.
>>>>>>> מומחה לשימור ודיגיטציה של אודיו וידאו ופילם 8-35ממ Cheers Shai
>>>>>>> Drori Expert digitization services for Audio Video Hi Res scanning
>>>>>>> for film 8mm-35mm Timeless Recordings Music Label
>>>>>>> www.audiovideofilm.com [log in to unmask] Tripadvisor level 5
>>>>>>> contributor, level 10 restaurant expert
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 9:44 PM, Eli Bildirici <
>>>>>>> 0000000fd3a0d01d-dmarc- [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Yeah. There are still some ppl doing analogue mastering - Classic
>>>>>>>> Records, Music Matters, Analogue Productions, Sterling (on behalf
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> others) but it's the exception rather than the rule. I think Music
>>>>>>>> Matters may have stopped due to limited sales though (and they're
>>>>>>>> one of
>>>>>>> the 'good guys'
>>>>>>>> here).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>> From: "Gary A. Galo" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 01:58 PM
>>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Vinyl Sales DOWN - why? See interesting
>>>>>>>> WSJ article today
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The whole rationale for vinyl lovers is to be able to hear their
>>>>>>>> favorite recordings from the analog tape era on records made with
>>>>>>>> the best possible disc cutting and pressing. I don't know any
>>>>>>>> vinyl lovers who want records cut from all-digital sources.
>>>>>>>> For them, the whole point is all-analog.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> ____________________________
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Gary Galo
>>>>>>>>> Audio Engineer Emeritus
>>>>>>>>> The Crane School of Music
>>>>>>>>> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
>>>>>>>>> Arnold Schoenberg
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be
>>>>> believed."
>>>>>>>>> Igor Markevitch
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:
>>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Lou Judson
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 24, 2017 1:52 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Vinyl Sales DOWN - why? See interesting
>>>>>>>>> WSJ
>>>>>>>> article today
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Thanks. That one says basically sales are slipping due to poor
>>>>>>>>> sound,
>>>>>>>> bad mastering, and not using the original analogue tapes.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Most recordings these days never had an analog stage, but it
>>>>>>>>> would still
>>>>>>>> be possible to make a good-sounding Lp from a born-digital source.
>>>>>>>> But most people have forgotten how, if they ever knew.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> It is all a bad business decision to do it the way they have done
>>>>>> it...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Yet hi res downloads are still growing!
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> <L>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Lou Judson
>>>>>>>>> Intuitive Audio
>>>>>>>>> 415-883-2689
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 24, 2017, at 10:38 AM, David Crosthwait
>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> A similar article is here:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.channelnews.com.au/vinyl-sales-slump-quality-bla
>>>>>>>>>> med/
>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>> https://www.channelnews.com.au/vinyl-sales-slump-quality-blamed/
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> David Crosthwait
>>>>>>>>>> DC Video
>>>>>>>>>> www.dcvideo.com
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 24, 2017, at 10:17 AM, Lou Judson
>>>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Tell us a little about what the subscribers' article says...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> 1006 Langer Way
>>>> Delray Beach, FL 33483
>>>> 561.265.2976
>> 

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