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ARSCLIST  May 2018

ARSCLIST May 2018

Subject:

Re: CD-R life

From:

Steve Smolian <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 28 May 2018 11:00:19 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (178 lines)

I've been using MAM-gold discs since they first came on the market.  No problems reported at this end or by clients.  

I'm sure they would be tough to playback if exposed in a sandstorm or other fierce conditions, but since gold is the only substance used to make CDs that does not oxidize, it reduces their age-connected problems by that measure.  I've not seen any delaminate, another feature of importance.  Nor have I heard any reports regarding gold disc failure on-line.  

Now offered at over a buck to about $ 3.00, they are not cheap.  But they remove some of the gamble from the use of CDs for archival purposes.  When required, I use a white top no logo version so I can use a Primera printer for labeling, now costing $ 2.40 each in lots of 100.    Beware of offers where the top surface is gold but the bottom, recordable side is not.  I order through Amazon so I can easily return misdescribes products.

The downside is that CDs are limited to the 44.1/16 standard.  You can record soundfiles with greater resolution onto them by violating the standard at the cost of time stored per disc, about 20 or so minutes if 96/24- I've not done the calculation- and hope that a program to decode them will be conveniently available when needed. 

There are alternate ways of storing audio, discussed elsewhere ad nauseum but, If CDs are your preference for long-term storage, gold CDs are a good sleep-at-night product.

Steve Smolian


Steve Smolian

-----Original Message-----
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Bryan Martin
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 10:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] CD-R life

Not gold-plated, and definitely no paper labels. My guess is a bad lot of discs (dye problem or perhaps a laminating issue?), because the problem was confined to a specific range of dates. I haven't checked any more discs since the content was ripped.

On the subject of M-Discs, has anyone else used them? They're not our main archiving solution, I'm using them as a backstop. I'm not usually an early adopter, but I found the testing results impressive. Any thoughts out there?


Bryan Martin, MusBac, MA
Technical Supervisor
Music Library
University of Toronto
(416) 978-3739
https://music.library.utoronto.ca



-----Original Message-----
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Gary A. Galo
Sent: May 25, 2018 1:15 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] CD-R life

And, did any of them have paper, adhesive labels. I've had problems discs that I used paper labels on. 

Gary

____________________________

Gary Galo
Audio Engineer Emeritus
The Crane School of Music
SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676

"Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
Arnold Schoenberg

"A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
Igor Markevitch

-----Original Message-----
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steven Smolian
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2018 11:47 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] CD-R life

Were these gold-plated CDs?

Steve Smolian

-----Original Message-----
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steven Smolian
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 4:09 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] CD-R life

Were these gold on the underside?

Steve Smolian

-----Original Message-----
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bryan Martin
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 11:14 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] CD-R life

Faculty of Music concerts at UofT were archived on very expensive, archive-quality HHB discs from about 1999 to 2014. Around 2007 we discovered, quite by accident, that some of these were failing within 6 months. That led to a massive push to rip the content from these discs. Some were recoverable only by doing a 1x speed transfer from a TASCAM CD-210 to an HHB CD-recorder. Out of nearly 1000 recordings, several dozen were completely unrecoverable, and a few hundred were recovered but with noticeable damage to the audio. A lot of the discs had very pronounced clicking, which we found could be removed satisfactorily using declicking software. The primary lesson learned is that a manufacturer's reputation is not particularly trustworthy. When I reached out to HHB, I got a terse reply from a sales rep, and nothing but crickets thereafter.

We now archive digital recordings on a dedicated file server (for immediate access), a NAS box (as a backup), and to M-Disc DVDs, which have proved to be very robust so far.

As far as TY CD-Rs go, wasn't the main selling point that they burned essentially error-free? That's great, but I think experience teaches us that dye-based media can't be counted on for durability, regardless of who makes them.


Bryan Martin, MusBac, MA
Technical Supervisor
Music Library
University of Toronto
(416) 978-3739
https://music.library.utoronto.ca




-----Original Message-----
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Steven Smolian
Sent: May 14, 2018 7:11 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] CD-R life

Not specifically, but there was no evasive words used.  

Steve


-----Original Message-----
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Eli Bildirici
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 6:43 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] CD-R life

Hahaha, I don't doubt. Do you remember what they said?

-------- Original Message --------
From: Steven Smolian <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 06:13 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] CD-R life

>Back in the day when I was on the AES committee creating the standards for testing CDs,  I saw an outrageous claim by TY in a print ad.  I contacted them and was told that they arrived at their figures by tweaking the testing parameters to give their product the best results.   Exactly why we need standards.
>
>Steve Smolian
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List 
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Eli Bildirici
>Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 4:29 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] CD-R life
>
>(IOW, in my initial post here, which I am now realizing you weren't 
>responding to, I should have specified that TY's dye composition/mfr 
>process lives on, somehow, under CMC. I realize now that the way I 
>phrased it in my reply to you sounded ambiguous. Carry on)
>
>-------- Original Message --------
>From: Lou Judson <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 04:12 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] CD-R life
>
>>
>> Eli, are you saying geniune Japanese TY CDRs are still available? If so, where, or is it secret?
>> 
>> <L>
>> Lou Judson
>> Intuitive Audio
>> 415-883-2689
>> 
>> On May 14, 2018, at 12:42 PM, Eli Bildirici <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> 
>> > I am aware, but iirc error tests with e.g. CD-DVD Speed show the CMC Mag disks are less robust than the Japanese manufactured ones, though the formula is the same. This may have affected long-term longevity somewhat too but it's only been a couple of years, so it's hard to know for sure. In any case the theme in this thread seems to be 'dye matters, and proper storage matters quite a lot as well'.
>> > I should have mentioned that they are still available though and are still probably your best bet.
>> > 
>> > -------- Original Message --------
>> > From: Lou Judson <[log in to unmask]>
>> > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 03:33 PM
>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] CD-R life
>> > 
>> >> 
>> >> TY formula still available:
>> >> <https://www.amazon.com/CMC-Pro-Powered-Technology-Watershield/dp/
>> >> B000LUC8WW> 
>> >> <http://www.microboards.com/blank-media/cmc-pro-media/cmc-pro-cd-r
>> >> -media>
>> >> search for TY CDrs for more info.
>> >> I won’t use anything else, until forced to.
>> >> <L>
>> 

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