I concede your point. It's probably best to keep standard on this and not break policy to counteract the (probably) incorrect suggestion of gender that the name provides. "Jean" is hardly unknown for men anyhow. I guess if we can't find masculine pronouns, we should just let it go. I'm beginning to agree with some that we shouldn't even have the 375.
Pete Wilson
Vanderbilt University
________________________________________
From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Gross, Tina M. [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2018 9:52 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Citing proof of gender in 670 for 375
No, it wouldn't be fine to say that, nor to make that assumption based on a photo. This is why the Report of the PCC Ad Hoc Task Group on Gender in Name Authority Records explicitly says : "Do not assume gender identity based on pictures or names."
Ted's questions ("Would I say he has short hair and a moustache? If he doesn’t have a moustache, is the short hair not enough?") point to why it is highly problematic to assume someone's gender based on your perception of their physical appearance. (One can have both a mustache and short hair and be a woman, or nonbinary.) I realize that making this assumption seems like common sense to you, but such an understanding of/approach to gender is simply no longer considered valid or acceptable, but actively harmful to people whose gender might not be "obvious."
If you're not convinced, in addition to reading the Report of the PCC Ad Hoc Task Group on Gender in Name Authority Records, please also check out the following:
Amber Billey, Emily Drabinksi, and K. R. Roberto. "What's Gender Got to Do With It? A Critique of RDA Rule 9.7." Cataloging & Classification Quarterly 52, no. 4 (2014): 412-421.
Kelly J. Thompson. "More Than a Name: A Content Analysis of Name Authority Records for Authors Who Self-Identify as Trans." Library Resources & Technical Services 60, no. 3 (2016): 140-155.
From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Wilson, Pete
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2018 7:01 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Citing proof of gender in 670 for 375
I think if you just said he looked like a man it’d be fine.
Pete
From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Gemberling, Ted P
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2018 6:46 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Citing proof of gender in 670 for 375
Pete,
I wonder how I would do that. Would I say he has short hair and a moustache? If he doesn’t have a moustache, is the short hair not enough? Our sense of gender is usually intuitive. I have only spoken to one person in my life that I couldn’t tell the gender of, and I have spoken to transgender people.
Ted
From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Wilson, Pete
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2018 4:54 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Citing proof of gender in 670 for 375
I would definitely include something in the 670 about how the picture suggested Wilson is male, and I would probably have coded for male, yes. That case is unusual.
Pete
From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Gemberling, Ted P
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2018 4:42 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Citing proof of gender in 670 for 375
Pete, the example I mentioned was a man named Jean Wilson. That is ARN 01139727. I thought it was useful because Jean is usually a woman’s name in America (of course it’s a male name in French). The book where I found the picture is from 1987, and he was born in 1932.
Ted
From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Wilson, Pete
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2018 3:15 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Citing proof of gender in 670 for 375
Ted,
If I thought it very important to include someone’s gender in the authority record, I might do it based on a photo. I don’t think it’s that important.
If you do it, probably you ought to cite the picture as your evidence.
Pete
From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Gemberling, Ted P
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2018 1:46 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Citing proof of gender in 670 for 375
Pete and Jesse, I’m guessing this is because you think the person might look masculine or feminine but might claim some other gender.
Could this be putting rules above practicality? Are you so worried about breaking a rule that you don’t want to give information that might help people?
I have only used a picture as evidence of gender once. It was a picture of a middle aged man, and the book was published, I think, in the 70’s or 80’s.
If we say someone looks like a man or woman and someone later says “no, that’s incorrect,” we can change it. Of course I wouldn’t use a picture as evidence if the gender looked ambiguous.
Ted
From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Wilson, Pete
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2018 1:21 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Citing proof of gender in 670 for 375
Dangerous! I would never use a picture as my only evidence.
I think you could use a statement like “masculine pronouns used in information about author,” citing a page as a source.
Pete Wilson
Vanderbilt University
From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Gemberling, Ted P
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2018 1:18 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Citing proof of gender in 670 for 375
Sometimes there will also be a picture of the person that allows you to identify their gender. I mention the picture in the 670.
Ted Gemberling
UAB Lister Hill Library
From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Jesse Lambertson
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2018 1:14 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Citing proof of gender in 670 for 375
Jay
My personal opinion is that we need a declarative statement in the work that talks about or describes the person's gender
I don't think there are names one can say are 'truly' gendered to be honest
In your example using 'his" in the text, I would think that would be enough to justify a 375 males $2 lcdgt
my 2 pfennigs
thank you
On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 2:11 PM Shorten, Jay <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Is there a best practice citation format for proof of gender in the 670 for the data we put in the 375? Is there a best practice as to when to do it? Obviously we should do it in doubtful or unusual situations, but would it be odd to do this for everyone?
Example: our person’s name is Shelby R. Gilley. Our proof that this is a man’s name is on page 63 (Shelby Gilley wrote about his friendship). Would “page 63 (his)” be sufficient? Or even “page 63 ([male])”? I have found cases where the only proof is the name itself as a clearly masculine or feminine name, or the only proof is the author’s picture.
Jay Shorten
Cataloger, Monographs and Electronic Resources
Associate Professor of Bibliography
Description & Access Department
University Libraries
University of Oklahoma
Co-ordinator, Oklahoma (Tornado) NACO Funnel
Co-owner, PERSNAME-L, the list about personal names in bibliographic and authority records
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
--
Jesse A Lambertson
Head of Cataloging & Metadata
Georgetown University Law Library
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Ph: 202-662-9167
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