I transferred a few dozen paper tapes over the years and found the ATR-100
to be very gentle on them, even with the extra small hubs.
בברכה,
שי דרורי. 0544-470-420
מומחה לשימור ודיגיטציה של נגטיבים אודיו וידאו ופילם 8-35ממ
Cheers
Shai Drori
Expert digitization services for Audio Video
3K scanning for film 8mm-35mm
Timeless Recordings Music Label
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On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 4:04 PM Gary A. Galo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Hi Tim and Marie,
>
> The Soundmirror tapes that we have in our archive are also very noisy. I
> suspect that it's a combination of things - the rough paper backing, the
> rough oxide coating, and noise inherent in the Soundmirror's record
> electronics. The oxide coating on those tapes looks like someone slapped it
> on with a paint brush - pretty unrefined!
>
> Our Soundmirror tapes were all made on Scotch 100 paper-backed tape. The
> plastic reels have very small center hubs, and large (roughly 1/4-inch)
> slots that wrinkle the tape. The amount of torque that's required to pull
> the tape off the small center hub when you get near the end is very
> stressful on the tape. I wound all of our paper tapes onto 10 1/2-inch
> reels, which results in smoother motion and less physical stress on the
> tape. All of our Soundmirror tapes suffer from wandering pitch from the
> beginning to the end of the reel, a problem you probably wouldn't notice if
> you played the tapes back on the same machine they were recorded on. But,
> no one would want to use the primitive transport, playback head and
> electronics in one of those machines. Better to play the tapes on a good,
> modern tape machine and deal with the wandering pitch with software.
>
> We don't have any Soundmirror brand tape in our archive. I would be
> interested to know if anyone has any Scotch 111 acetate tapes that were
> made on a Soundmirror. Honestly, I don't know if this was ever done. I
> would bet that they would be somewhat quieter, but probably still suffer
> from noise from the record electronics.
>
> Best,
> Gary
>
>
>
> ____________________________
>
> Gary Galo
> Audio Engineer Emeritus
> The Crane School of Music
> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
>
> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
> Arnold Schoenberg
>
> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
> Igor Markevitch
>
> "If you design an audio system based on the premise that nothing is
> audible,
> on that system nothing will be audible."
> G. Galo
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Marie O'Connell
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2018 2:15 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Soundmirror paper 1/4" tape
>
> Tim,
> I haven't preserved a Soundmirror tape for about 3 years but your
> observations and experience with the noise is similar to what I had.
>
> All the tapes were in Soundmirror boxes and the reels were a deep red
> metal.
>
> Most of the ones I worked on were poorly spooled on the reels and the
> tension was all over the place.
>
> Splices were difficult as the glue seeped through to a few layers which
> resulted in the magnetic layer coming off as the reel turned.
>
> I'll see if I can find photos of a unique soundmirror and reel and send it
> through.
>
> Cheers,
> Marie
>
> On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 5:10 PM Tim Gillett <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > Another observation about these apparently rare paper tape recordings
> > made,
> > I assume, on a Soundmirror machine. (the red tape boxes are all
> > Soundmirror
> > labelled). These recordings are very noisy. I'd read that paper based
> > tapes
> > were noisy partly because of the roughness of the paper backing, and I
> > dont
> > doubt that's true. But when one of the recordings finished and it went
> > to
> > blank unrecorded tape I noticed a large drop in background noise.
> >
> > Maybe the initial recorder had a magnetised tape path? I made a test
> > recording on a blank piece of tape on a good modern recorder and while
> > there
> > was the expected extra "bias noise", the total noise was much lower than
> > on
> > the old recordings. Then I read somewhere that the original Soundmirror
> > recorders used a permanent magnet erase head. I guess this would also
> > explain the very high background noise.
> >
> > Has anyone else experienced this much higher background noise on
> > recordings
> > made on Soundmirror machines?
> >
> > Tim Gillett
> > Perth,
> > Western Australia
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Richard L. Hess" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 8:08 AM
> > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Soundmirror paper 1/4" tape
> >
> >
> > > Hi, Tim,
> > >
> > > The only thought I had is that there was moisture intrusion into the
> > tape
> > > pack at some point to cause this. This could have been moisture on its
> > own
> > > or with biological or chemical contaminants that acted like an adhesive
> > or
> > > caused the tape coatings to act like an adhesive.
> > >
> > > It is just a guess with no real science to back it up.
> > >
> > > Yes, I would try baking to separate, but that's not always useful,
> > either.
> > >
> > > The other thing that has occasionally worked with blocked tapes is
> > > chilling them for a while, both to drive out moisture and get some
> > > micro-movement layer to layer which may "unhook" the little bonds.
> > >
> > > If you hear a zipper noise, you are damaging tape.
> > >
> > > Good Luck!
> > >
> > > Richard
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 2018-10-16 4:58 PM, Tim Gillett wrote:
> > >> Hi Corey,
> > >>
> > >> No, definitely not normal sticky shed or even any stickiness.
> > >>
> > >> My tentative guess is that with time and pressure the rough surface of
> > >> the paper backing has imprinted itself onto the adjacent layer's
> > smoother
> > >> oxide surface so that many tiny "interlock" or clasp points have
> > formed.
> > >> On the sections where the winds have separated without damage, the
> > >> interlocks have released and now there is no longer a stiction in
> those
> > >> sections. I can rewind the tape back from where the tape stopped and
> it
> > >> winds perfectly. No stiction. For a paper tape, the pack is quite
> good.
> > >> When I run the tape forward, as soon as it gets to the point where I
> > >> stopped separating the wind, the adhesion resumes.
> > >>
> > >> It's complicated by various sticky tape splices which have gone gooey
> > and
> > >> oozed, causing adhesions at those points but that's a separate issue.
> > >>
> > >> Yes there are unrecorded sections which I can experiment with.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> Tim
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Corey Bailey"
> > >> <[log in to unmask]>
> > >> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 4:12 AM
> > >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Soundmirror paper 1/4" tape
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Hi Tim,
> > >>>
> > >>> It's hard to recommend a solution without visually assessing the
> > >>> problem. For polyester base tapes that have layer-to-layer adhesion,
> I
> > >>> usually have to bake them at a lowered temperature (118° F. or less)
> > for
> > >>> 6 to 8 hours and then I will check the tape again. For paper backed
> > >>> tape, baking may not work. Is there an unrecorded section that you
> > could
> > >>> use for testing? For me, baking audio tape is reserved as a last
> > resort.
> > >>> Layer-to-layer adhesion is the one exception.
> > >>>
> > >>> Cheers!
> > >>>
> > >>> Corey
> > >>>
> > >>> Corey Bailey Audio Engineering
> > >>> www.baileyzone.net
> > >>>
> > >>> On 10/16/2018 6:11 AM, Tim Gillett wrote:
> > >>>> Thanks Gary,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Yes having had experience with one tape like this 15 years ago (from
> > >>>> the same person's archive) I'm aware of the centre track, the tracks
> > 2
> > >>>> and 3 capture and the azimuth corrector technique. It's just a shame
> > I
> > >>>> wasnt aware of this sticking problem back then as I guess if I'd
> > >>>> unwound them then it wouldnt have been as much of a problem as has
> > now
> > >>>> become 15 years on.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I only recently discovered that the tapes have been stored in less
> > than
> > >>>> ideal conditions with high humidity and evidence of mould on some
> > tapes
> > >>>> (but apparently not on any of these Soundmirror tapes that I can
> see.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Yes hoping Richard Hess or maybe Peter Brothers might have
> experience
> > >>>> with this sticky problem.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Regards,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tim.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary A. Galo" <
> [log in to unmask]
> > >
> > >>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 8:57 PM
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Soundmirror paper 1/4" tape
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hi Tim,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> This is a strange problem. I've worked with quite a few Brush
> > >>>> Soundmirror tapes in our archive, and the only spots where I found
> > any
> > >>>> sticking was on a couple that had leader tape spliced on at the
> > >>>> beginning. But, it was confined to that spot, and not all the way
> > >>>> through.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Regarding playback on modern equipment, I use tracks 2 and 3 of a
> > >>>> 4-channel head. They fit right over that single half track on the
> > >>>> Soundmirror tapes. The stereo playback allows proper azimuth
> > >>>> adjustment, and gets you inside of most of the edge curl that may
> > have
> > >>>> occurred. It may also get you inside any oxide shedding that may
> > >>>> happen, if that stickiness is confined to the edges. Then I put the
> > two
> > >>>> channels through a phase corrector before summing them to mono.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Richard Hess may be able to better address the sticking problem.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Best
> > >>>> Gary
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Gary Galo
> > >>>> Audio Engineer Emeritus
> > >>>> The Crane School of Music
> > >>>> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ________________________________
> > >>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
> > >>>> <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Tim Gillett
> > >>>> <[log in to unmask]>
> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 8:32:39 AM
> > >>>> To: [log in to unmask]
> > >>>> Subject: [ARSCLIST] Soundmirror paper 1/4" tape
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hello,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I'm having problems with some very early Soundmirror tapes using a
> > >>>> paper backing, circa late 40's early fifties I guess. I suspect they
> > >>>> havent been wound or played for many decades. They contain live
> > >>>> recordings of mainly classical oratorio concerts.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The tape wind is semi sticking to the next wind in varying degrees
> > >>>> depending on the tape in question. With a couple I've been able to
> > >>>> slowly wind them off without tape breakage or loss of oxide. Once
> > they
> > >>>> have been unstuck and spooled onto the take up reel they remain
> > unstuck
> > >>>> and play well. I've been able to repair old splices and clean off
> old
> > >>>> spreading adhesive.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> But this one is more sticky and further into the reel I go it has
> > >>>> started to really stick to the next wind and rip off small pieces of
> > >>>> oxide (I guess more tension from being under a constant torque wind
> > for
> > >>>> many years has made the inner layers stick more to each other).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Any hints on treating the tape to help it wind off without damage,
> or
> > >>>> with less damage? Heat, humidity etc?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tim Gillett
> > >>>> Perth,
> > >>>> Western Australia
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ---
> > >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> > >>
> > > --
> > > Richard L. Hess email: [log in to unmask]
> > > Aurora, Ontario, Canada 647 479 2800
> > > http://www.richardhess.com/tape/contact.htm
> > > Quality tape transfers -- even from hard-to-play tapes.
> >
>
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