LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.0

Help for ARSCLIST Archives


ARSCLIST Archives

ARSCLIST Archives


ARSCLIST@LISTSERV.LOC.GOV


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

ARSCLIST Home

ARSCLIST Home

ARSCLIST  October 2018

ARSCLIST October 2018

Subject:

Re: Soundmirror paper 1/4" tape

From:

Shai Drori <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 25 Oct 2018 18:25:26 +0300

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (339 lines)

I transferred a few dozen paper tapes over the years and found the ATR-100
to be very gentle on them, even with the extra small hubs.
בברכה,
שי דרורי. 0544-470-420
מומחה לשימור ודיגיטציה של נגטיבים אודיו וידאו ופילם 8-35ממ
Cheers
Shai Drori
Expert digitization services for Audio Video
3K scanning for film 8mm-35mm
Timeless Recordings Music Label
www.audiovideofilm.com
[log in to unmask]
Tripadvisor level 6 contributor, level 15 restaurant expert


On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 4:04 PM Gary A. Galo <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Hi Tim and Marie,
>
> The Soundmirror tapes that we have in our archive are also very noisy. I
> suspect that it's a combination of things - the rough paper backing, the
> rough oxide coating, and noise inherent in the Soundmirror's record
> electronics. The oxide coating on those tapes looks like someone slapped it
> on with a paint brush - pretty unrefined!
>
> Our Soundmirror tapes were all made on Scotch 100 paper-backed tape. The
> plastic reels have very small center hubs, and large (roughly 1/4-inch)
> slots that wrinkle the tape. The amount of torque that's required to pull
> the tape off the small center hub when you get near the end is very
> stressful on the tape. I wound all of our paper tapes onto 10 1/2-inch
> reels, which results in smoother motion and less physical stress on the
> tape. All of our Soundmirror tapes suffer from wandering pitch from the
> beginning to the end of the reel, a problem you probably wouldn't notice if
> you played the tapes back on the same machine they were recorded on. But,
> no one would want to use the primitive transport, playback head and
> electronics in one of those machines. Better to play the tapes on a good,
> modern tape machine and deal with the wandering pitch with software.
>
> We don't have any Soundmirror brand tape in our archive. I would be
> interested to know if anyone has any Scotch 111 acetate tapes that were
> made on a Soundmirror. Honestly, I don't know if this was ever done. I
> would bet that they would be somewhat quieter, but probably still suffer
> from noise from the record electronics.
>
> Best,
> Gary
>
>
>
> ____________________________
>
> Gary Galo
> Audio Engineer Emeritus
> The Crane School of Music
> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
>
> "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
> Arnold Schoenberg
>
> "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
> Igor Markevitch
>
> "If you design an audio system based on the premise that nothing is
> audible,
> on that system nothing will be audible."
> G. Galo
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Marie O'Connell
> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2018 2:15 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Soundmirror paper 1/4" tape
>
> Tim,
> I haven't preserved a Soundmirror tape for about 3 years but your
> observations and experience with the noise is similar to what I had.
>
> All the tapes were in Soundmirror boxes and the reels were a deep red
> metal.
>
> Most of the ones I worked on were poorly spooled on the reels and the
> tension was all over the place.
>
> Splices were difficult as the glue seeped through to a few layers which
> resulted in the magnetic layer coming off as the reel turned.
>
> I'll see if I can find photos of a unique soundmirror and reel and send it
> through.
>
> Cheers,
> Marie
>
> On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 5:10 PM Tim Gillett <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > Another observation about these apparently rare paper tape recordings
> > made,
> > I assume, on a Soundmirror machine. (the red tape boxes are all
> > Soundmirror
> > labelled). These recordings are very noisy. I'd read that paper based
> > tapes
> > were noisy partly because of the roughness of the paper backing, and I
> > dont
> > doubt  that's true.   But when one of the recordings finished and it went
> > to
> > blank unrecorded tape  I noticed a large drop in background noise.
> >
> > Maybe the initial recorder had a magnetised tape path? I made a test
> > recording on a blank piece of tape on a good modern recorder and while
> > there
> > was the expected extra "bias noise", the total noise was much lower than
> > on
> > the old recordings. Then I read somewhere that the original Soundmirror
> > recorders used a permanent magnet erase head. I guess this would also
> > explain the very high background noise.
> >
> > Has anyone else experienced this much higher background noise on
> > recordings
> > made on Soundmirror machines?
> >
> > Tim Gillett
> > Perth,
> > Western Australia
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Richard L. Hess" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 8:08 AM
> > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Soundmirror paper 1/4" tape
> >
> >
> > > Hi, Tim,
> > >
> > > The only thought I had is that there was moisture intrusion into the
> > tape
> > > pack at some point to cause this. This could have been moisture on its
> > own
> > > or with biological or chemical contaminants that acted like an adhesive
> > or
> > > caused the tape coatings to act like an adhesive.
> > >
> > > It is just a guess with no real science to back it up.
> > >
> > > Yes, I would try baking to separate, but that's not always useful,
> > either.
> > >
> > > The other thing that has occasionally worked with blocked tapes is
> > > chilling them for a while, both to drive out moisture and get some
> > > micro-movement layer to layer which may "unhook" the little bonds.
> > >
> > > If you hear a zipper noise, you are damaging tape.
> > >
> > > Good Luck!
> > >
> > > Richard
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 2018-10-16 4:58 PM, Tim Gillett wrote:
> > >> Hi Corey,
> > >>
> > >> No, definitely not normal sticky shed or even any stickiness.
> > >>
> > >> My tentative guess is that with time and pressure the rough surface of
> > >> the paper backing has imprinted itself onto the adjacent layer's
> > smoother
> > >> oxide surface so that many tiny "interlock" or clasp points have
> > formed.
> > >> On the sections where the winds have separated without damage, the
> > >> interlocks have released and now there is no longer a stiction in
> those
> > >> sections. I can rewind the tape back from where the tape stopped and
> it
> > >> winds perfectly. No stiction. For a paper tape, the pack is quite
> good.
> > >> When I run the tape forward, as soon as it gets to the point where I
> > >> stopped separating the wind, the adhesion resumes.
> > >>
> > >> It's complicated by various sticky tape splices which have gone gooey
> > and
> > >> oozed, causing adhesions at those points but that's a separate issue.
> > >>
> > >> Yes there are unrecorded sections which I can experiment with.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> Tim
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Corey Bailey"
> > >> <[log in to unmask]>
> > >> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 4:12 AM
> > >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Soundmirror paper 1/4" tape
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Hi Tim,
> > >>>
> > >>> It's hard to recommend a solution without visually assessing the
> > >>> problem. For polyester base tapes that have layer-to-layer adhesion,
> I
> > >>> usually have to bake them at a lowered temperature (118° F. or less)
> > for
> > >>> 6 to 8 hours and then I will check the tape again. For paper backed
> > >>> tape, baking may not work. Is there an unrecorded section that you
> > could
> > >>> use for testing? For me, baking audio tape is reserved as a last
> > resort.
> > >>> Layer-to-layer adhesion is the one exception.
> > >>>
> > >>> Cheers!
> > >>>
> > >>> Corey
> > >>>
> > >>> Corey Bailey Audio Engineering
> > >>> www.baileyzone.net
> > >>>
> > >>> On 10/16/2018 6:11 AM, Tim Gillett wrote:
> > >>>> Thanks Gary,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Yes having had experience with one tape like this 15 years ago (from
> > >>>> the same person's archive) I'm aware of the centre track, the tracks
> > 2
> > >>>> and 3 capture and the azimuth corrector technique. It's just a shame
> > I
> > >>>> wasnt aware of this sticking problem back then as I guess if I'd
> > >>>> unwound them then it wouldnt have been as much of a problem as has
> > now
> > >>>> become 15 years on.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I only recently discovered that the tapes have been stored in less
> > than
> > >>>> ideal conditions with high humidity and evidence of mould on some
> > tapes
> > >>>> (but apparently not on any of these Soundmirror tapes that I can
> see.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Yes hoping Richard Hess or maybe Peter Brothers might have
> experience
> > >>>> with this sticky problem.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Regards,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tim.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary A. Galo" <
> [log in to unmask]
> > >
> > >>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 8:57 PM
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Soundmirror paper 1/4" tape
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hi Tim,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> This is a strange problem. I've worked with quite a few Brush
> > >>>> Soundmirror tapes in our archive, and the only spots where I found
> > any
> > >>>> sticking was on a couple that had leader tape spliced on at the
> > >>>> beginning. But, it was confined to that spot, and not all the way
> > >>>> through.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Regarding playback on modern equipment, I use tracks 2 and 3 of a
> > >>>> 4-channel head. They fit right over that single half track on the
> > >>>> Soundmirror tapes. The stereo playback allows proper azimuth
> > >>>> adjustment, and gets you inside of most of the edge curl that may
> > have
> > >>>> occurred. It may also get you inside any oxide shedding that may
> > >>>> happen, if that stickiness is confined to the edges. Then I put the
> > two
> > >>>> channels through a phase corrector before summing them to mono.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Richard Hess may be able to better address the sticking problem.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Best
> > >>>> Gary
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Gary Galo
> > >>>> Audio Engineer Emeritus
> > >>>> The Crane School of Music
> > >>>> SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ________________________________
> > >>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
> > >>>> <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Tim Gillett
> > >>>> <[log in to unmask]>
> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 8:32:39 AM
> > >>>> To: [log in to unmask]
> > >>>> Subject: [ARSCLIST] Soundmirror paper 1/4" tape
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hello,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I'm having problems with some very early Soundmirror tapes using a
> > >>>> paper backing, circa late 40's early fifties I guess. I suspect they
> > >>>> havent been wound or played for many decades. They contain live
> > >>>> recordings of mainly classical oratorio concerts.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The tape wind is semi sticking to the next wind in varying degrees
> > >>>> depending on the tape in question. With a couple I've been able to
> > >>>> slowly wind them off without tape breakage or loss of oxide. Once
> > they
> > >>>> have been unstuck and spooled onto the take up reel they remain
> > unstuck
> > >>>> and play well. I've been able to repair old splices and clean off
> old
> > >>>> spreading adhesive.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> But this one is more sticky and further into the reel I go it has
> > >>>> started to really stick to the next wind and rip off small pieces of
> > >>>> oxide (I guess more tension from being under a constant torque wind
> > for
> > >>>> many years has made the inner layers stick more to each other).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Any hints on treating the tape to help it wind off without damage,
> or
> > >>>> with less damage? Heat, humidity etc?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tim Gillett
> > >>>> Perth,
> > >>>> Western Australia
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ---
> > >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> > >>
> > > --
> > > Richard L. Hess                   email: [log in to unmask]
> > > Aurora, Ontario, Canada                             647 479 2800
> > > http://www.richardhess.com/tape/contact.htm
> > > Quality tape transfers -- even from hard-to-play tapes.
> >
>

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.LOC.GOV

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager