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ARSCLIST  November 2021

ARSCLIST November 2021

Subject:

Re: Brittle Acetate Tapes (was 220V/50Hz 1/4" Open Reel Audio Playback Decks)

From:

CBAUDIO <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

CBAUDIO <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 23 Nov 2021 00:58:55 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (608 lines)

A few years ago, I transferred a couple of 3" & some 5" reel-to-reel 
tapes that had me really chasing my tail. The tapes were used as mailers 
for communication between a soldier & his parents during the Viet Nam 
era. All of the recording was done consertively at 3-3/4 IPS so, it was 
impossible to read with a magnetic viewer. Turns out that the soldier 
bought a deck overseas that was 1/4 track & his parents had a deck that 
was half track mono. So, the tapes had both formats recorded on them.

Whew!
CB
Corey Bailey Audio Engineering
www.baileyzone.net

------ Original Message ------
From: "Tim Gillett" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: 11/22/2021 4:20:53 PM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Brittle Acetate Tapes (was 220V/50Hz 1/4" Open 
Reel Audio Playback Decks)

>Hi Abhi and Richard,
>
>Abhi,  with your Lafayette tape recordings have you tried  looking
>at the recorded magnetic patterns using a suitable magnetic reader or
>viewer?
>
>Richard, another machine, the Sony 521 had a small lever at the front
>labelled "4 track/2 track" which altered (only) the head height to
>allow a compromise playback of half track stereo  tapes.  Seemingly
>like the Wollensak, it places the quarter track stereo head pole
>pieces in the centre of the half track stereo position. Like the
>Wollensak it didnt correspondingly alter  erase head height so there
>was potential to accidentally leave the lever in the wrong position
>when making a recording.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Tim
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List"
><[log in to unmask]>
>To:<[log in to unmask]>
>Cc:
>Sent:Mon, 22 Nov 2021 15:42:24 -0500
>Subject:Re: [ARSCLIST] Brittle Acetate Tapes (was 220V/50Hz 1/4" Open
>Reel Audio Playback Decks)
>
>  Hi, Corey and Abhi,
>
>  In late 1962 or early 1963 (I recorded hours of JFK's funeral audio
>on
>  it 58 years ago this week), I bought a Wollensak T-1616-4. It was a
>  really odd duck, but worked reasonably well.
>
>  It had a quarter track stereo combo record/play head made by Shure. I
>
>  don't recall the erase head. It had one complete channel of
>record/play
>  electronics from mic in to 10 W power amp. There was an add-in
>one-tube
>  chassis that was the head preamp which needed to feed a separate
>  amp-speaker combination. While there was a small power transformer,
>the
>  10 W power amplifier was modeled after the AC/DC table radios and had
>
>  the whole power amp run directly off the mains.
>
>  This shows some pictures of the 1616-4
>https://www.ebay.com/itm/313588550900 (not my auction)
>  and I've collected a few things that I have here:
>  <https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7wvowq62e9o5d17/AADOA9TqRJCej268l9wmj1kUa?dl=0>
>
>  The T-1515-4 manual shows at the end the track alignments, and the
>eBay
>  photos above show the track wheel. Other manuals in the folder might
>  provide a better exploded view of the head assembly.
>
>  While there are differences between the 1500 and the 1600 it is
>mostly
>  in the transport control. The 1600 was solenoid controlled for more
>  remote control and a lighter touch on the keys The 1600 could also
>(with
>  the help of 1/8-inch foil tape) do auto repeat.
>  The 1500 was introduced in 1959 and the 1600 in 1960
>
>  I started to go thru the math of the head height adjustment to see
>how
>  it worked out. It does work. So if you want to get caught up with
>mils
>  (thousandths of an inch), have at it. Otherwise look at the pictures
>in
>  the manual at the Dropbox link.
>
>  In the head assembly, there was an "elevator" arrangement (hence I
>knew
>  that was possible when I had John French make one for my APR-5000
>with
>  an 8-track four-channel head). The Wollensak elevator was run by a
>  Delrin disk which protruded out of the side of the head assembly and
>was
>  marked A 2TR B. In the A position, the quarter track R/P head (and
>  presumably the erase head) was positioned so that the left head
>channel
>  aligned with track 1 and the right head channel aligned with track 3.
>In
>  2TR, the head was lowered slightly, presumably just enough so that
>the
>  two quarter track head channels were completely on the professional 2
>
>  track tracks. This would probably have been adjusted for 75 mil
>tracks,
>  since Ampex sort of ruled the roost in that era.
>
>  One can check if this was even possible by looking at
>https://www.richardhess.com/tape/quarterinch_lrg.gif
>
>  Quarter track has 43 mil tracks and centre-to-centre of the 1/3
>stereo
>  pair at 134 mils. That implies 24 mil guard bands...
>  Checking that math, 43x4+24x3 = 244 mils out to out.
>
>  Doing the same with the Ampex format, the two tracks are on 156 mil
>  centres and the track is 75 mils, so the guard band is 81 mils. This
>  gives an out-to-out dimension of 231 mils.
>
>  Normally, the top of the quarter track right channel head would be
>137
>  mils from the top edge of a 250 mil tape, and the bottom of the left
>  channel would be 46 mils below the top of the tape.
>
>  The Ampex 2-track tape would have the bottom of the left channel 84.5
>
>  mils below the top of the tape and the top of the right channel 165.5
>
>  mils below the top of the tape.
>
>  So depressing the quarter track head assembly by 28.5 mils would just
>
>  put the top of the right head at the top of the Ampex two track right
>
>  channel.
>
>  This would put the bottom of the quarter track left channel at 74.5
>mils
>  below the top of the tape, which allows a 10 mil window, so the ideal
>
>  depression for the 2 TR position would be 33.5 mils.
>
>  Continuing on, in order to go to the B position, the full 134 mil
>  centre-to-centre spacing of the quarter track stereo pair would have
>to
>  be covered, or the distance between 2 TR and B would be 100.5 mil
>
>  Roughly, the A-2TR is roughly 1/4 of the total depression and the
>2TR-B
>  depression is 3/4 of the total which is in keeping with what I
>  recall--it was harder to go to B as you were fighting a spring.
>
>  The actual elevator mechanism was a ramp molded into the bottom face
>of
>  the Delrin wheel and a small ball that ran in a cup at the top of a
>post
>  on the head assembly.
>
>  Being a fully mechanical assembly, this would not reset on power on
>so
>  you'd record in the position that it was left in, and I suspect that
>  this little assembly wasn't stable after many uses.
>
>  Cheers,
>
>  Richard
>
>  On 2021-11-22 2:31 p.m., CBAUDIO wrote:
>  > I have about 90 tapes in the studio that were recorded on a
>Wollensak
>  > model 1500. That particular model was 1/2 track, mono.
>  >
>  > Best,
>  > CB
>  > Corey Bailey Audio Engineering
>  > www.baileyzone.net
>  >
>  > ------ Original Message ------
>  > From: "Abhimonyu Deb"
><[log in to unmask]>
>  > To: [log in to unmask]
>  > Sent: 11/22/2021 2:00:44 AM
>  > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Brittle Acetate Tapes (was 220V/50Hz 1/4"
>Open
>  > Reel Audio Playback Decks)
>  >
>  >> Hi Tim and Richard,
>  >> Tim, the Lafayette tapes were recorded on a Wollensak recorder.
>I'm
>  >> afraid I don't know much more than that. However, I suspect that
>the
>  >> tracks 2 and 3 vs. tracks 1 and 4 issue is due to lack of
>maintenance
>  >> of the recorder during the 4 or 5 years that the recordings were
>made
>  >> rather than any compatibility issue between different formats.
>  >> That's because the tracks issue isn't consistent across all of the
>tapes.
>  >> There's another factor that might be significant. Like I said, I
>am of
>  >> Indian origin. My uncle (father's brother) went to the U.S. as a
>  >> graduate student in 1958 and came back to India in 1960, bringing
>the
>  >> Wollensak and 12 Lafayette blank tapes with him. At the time, it
>was
>  >> almost as if he brought a spaceship from Mars!
>  >> My father says that they never demagnetized the heads. They did
>clean
>  >> the heads regularly but sometimes it was with aftershave lotion
>  >> (gasp!) or something similar.
>  >> The tapes are numbered 1 to 12 and were recorded mostly in that
>sequence.
>  >> If I had to find a pattern, it would be that the earlier recorded
>  >> tapes are generally better on track 1 and later tapes are
>generally
>  >> better on track 2.
>  >> Richard, I had read about your experience with the carbonyl iron
>tape
>  >> in one of your papers a year or two ago (or maybe on your blog?).
>I
>  >> tried your solution myself more than once, also with varying
>degrees
>  >> of success.
>  >> From my experience, I can't find any pattern to the cupping
>problem.
>  >> Could it be a maintenance issue? There was no cupping problem at
>all
>  >> with the EMI acetates in Gramophone Company of India's archive.
>  >> On the other hand, I have seen this problem consistently on tapes
>from
>  >> other sources and of varying brands that were not well maintained.
>My
>  >> Lafayette tapes have no cupping problem at all. They were just
>kept on
>  >> a bookshelf (in their boxes) for the past 50 years.
>  >> The whole subject is really mysterious and so much fun!
>  >> Best wishes,
>  >> Abhi
>  >> --------------------------------------------
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> Abhimonyu DebAudio Consultant and Digitization
>  >> Specialisthttps://www.linkedin.com/in/abhimonyudeb
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>     On Sunday, 21 November, 2021, 11:48:43 pm IST, Richard L.
>Hess
>  >> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>  >>
>  >>  Hi, Abhi and Tim,
>  >>
>  >> Great discussion. The cupping is a real issue, but so is edge
>waviness.
>  >>
>  >> On the suggestion of Friedrich Engel (retired BASF Historian), I
>once
>  >> reviewed the only carbonyl iron tape I've ever seen. This was one
>of the
>  >> first Magnetophon experimental tapes from circa 1935. It was so
>badly
>  >> cupped that it was like a carpenter's steel tape and could support
>  >> itself extending from the reel.
>  >>
>  >> Hydration was Herr Engel's suggestion, I tried about 24 hours with
>the
>  >> tape in a pancake form on a support over about an inch of water in
>a
>  >> sealed container. It ran beautifully and was more like a satin
>ribbon
>  >> than a tape measure.
>  >>
>  >> HOWEVER, I have repeated that once or twice since with far less
>success.
>  >> The hydration probably reduces the strength of the tape.
>  >>
>  >> The worst over-hydration I've ever seen was a damp 1-inch Scotch
>201
>  >> acetate tape. The acetate had swollen so much that the first half
>inch
>  >> at the hub had been deformed and the closest layers had been
>forced
>  >> through the slot of the hub, causing a bump. Of course it was
>worse on
>  >> the track one side (which was recorded while only about five
>tracks had
>  >> been used) and the tape had been wound tails out so the pack was
>tight
>  >> and the first song of the album was most damaged!
>  >>
>  >> I put a pressure pad hard against the head (while adding extra
>pressure
>  >> to the pinch roller to keep the tape on speed). My hands were very
>  >> cramped a half hour later. Then Paul MacDonald from Cape Breton
>Island,
>  >> Nova Scotia who is a musician and excellent recording/mastering
>  >> engineer, spent days with it picking out a similar piece of music
>to
>  >> cover the bumps using Sound Blade software. It turned out
>beautifully.
>  >>
>  >> If the edges are wavy, then certainly tracks 2 and 3 would be a
>better
>  >> choice, if the cupping is tamable.
>  >>
>  >> It is such a difficult line to draw between doing no harm to the
>  >> original and capturing the best possible transfer which will
>likely be
>  >> the last transfer made (unless you really miss the mark). If you
>are
>  >> doing risky procedures, it is important to inform the clients
>about the
>  >> problems and risks before proceeding.
>  >>
>  >> Cheers,
>  >>
>  >> Richard
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> On 2021-11-21 4:55 a.m., Tim Gillett wrote:
>  >>>  Hi Abhi,
>  >>>
>  >>>  I suspect your experience with the old acetates is common. When
>  >>>  brittle they can break easily but at least they break cleanly
>and
>  >>>  can  be spliced back together again. The other issue which is
>common
>  >>>  is "cupping" on the oxide side. The top and bottom edges of the
>tape
>  >>>  are OK on the tape head but the centre section doesnt want to
>sit flat
>  >>>  so the sound is often muffled or weak. We can increase the tape
>  >>>  tension across the head but it risks breaking the tape.
>Sometimes
>  >>>  a temporary felt pressure pad, or small artist's brush, or even
>a
>  >>>  fingertip as you did can be used to press the centre section
>against
>  >>>  the head.
>  >>>
>  >>>  The problem you mentioned with the Lafayette acetates could be
>that
>  >>>  they were recorded on a Brush Soundmirror machine which only
>recorded
>  >>>  in the centre of the tape, leaving the top and bottom edges
>  >>>  unrecorded. A "cupped" acetate tape is the worst for this as it
>keeps
>  >>>  that most important part of the tape off the head. The reason
>the
>  >>>  Studer machine didnt play them well is probably that it was an
>NAB
>  >>>  half track machine which would have missed the centre part of
>the
>  >>>  tape. You're right that tracks 2 and 3 of a quarter track
>machine
>  >>>  would read it much better.   Actually a very good playback
>can be
>  >>>  obtained from a Soundmirror tape with a four track (four
>channel) 1/4"
>  >>>  head  using tracks 2 and 3.
>  >>>
>  >>>  Best wishes,
>  >>>
>  >>>  Tim Gillett
>  >>>
>  >>>  Perth, Western Australia
>  >>>
>  >>>  ----- Original Message -----
>  >>>  From: "Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List"
>  >>>  <[log in to unmask]>
>  >>>  To:<[log in to unmask]>
>  >>>  Cc:
>  >>>  Sent:Sun, 21 Nov 2021 04:58:17 +0000
>  >>>  Subject:Re: [ARSCLIST] 220V/50Hz 1/4" Open Reel Audio Playback
>Decks
>  >>>
>  >>>   Hi Richard,
>  >>>   Wow! You have no idea what it means for a little guy like me
>to
>  >>>  contribute to this forum!
>  >>>   First, just a very quick background. Although I was born and
>brought
>  >>>  up in the U.S., I spent all of my adult and professional life
>in India
>  >>>  (I am of Indian origin).
>  >>>   I used to work in the recording studio of the Gramophone
>Company of
>  >>>  India. It used to be a wholly owned subsidiary of the GC of UK.
>Later
>  >>>  it became independent.
>  >>>   GC of India has a tape archive with acetates starting from
>around
>  >>>  1955. They are almost entirely EMI tapes and are in excellent
>  >>>  condition. There’s no problem of brittleness and they play
>fine on
>  >>>  A80’s and 807’s.
>  >>>
>  >>>   Now I work independently, usually with smaller archives or
>individual
>  >>>  collections. The name brand tapes that I get, e.g. Scotch 111
>or
>  >>>  141, usually play fine on my A807. However, given the tropical
>  >>>  climate in India and the lack of maintenance of the tapes,
>warping is
>  >>>  a frequent problem.
>  >>>   A few years ago, I inherited a dozen Lafayette brand tapes
>from my
>  >>>  uncle. The tapes were purchased in 1960 and recorded between
>1961 to
>  >>>  1965.
>  >>>   These tapes are mostly brittle. Instead of A807, for most of
>these
>  >>>  tapes I had to use an Akai GX-4000D quarter track deck to play
>half
>  >>>  track recordings. Yes, I know I broke every rule in the book
>but I
>  >>>  couldn't think of any other way.
>  >>>   Interestingly, for some of these tapes played on the Akai, I
>got a
>  >>>  better playback from tracks 2 and 3 compared to tracks 1 and 4.
>Of
>  >>>  course, I had to reverse them on my DAW.
>  >>>   A few years ago I got an acetate similar to your Vermont tape.
>I
>  >>>  actually had to unwind several hundred feet of tape from the
>reel,
>  >>>  somehow thread the tape onto my Akai without any reels on
>either side,
>  >>>  and hold my index finger softly against the playback head while
>  >>>  playing.
>  >>>   So, basically, the brittle acetates that I've encountered are
>due to
>  >>>  lack of maintenance or a cheap brand of tape.
>  >>>   Coming back to Dave's original post, I was thinking to myself
>when I
>  >>>  first read it that it might be nearly impossible to find a
>machine
>  >>>  that can satisfy all of his conditions. But, then, I don't have
>any
>  >>>  experience with the ATR 100 or APR-5000.
>  >>>
>  >>>   Best wishes,
>  >>>   Abhi (short for Abhimonyu)
>  >>>   ------------------------------------------
>  >>>
>  >>>   Abhimonyu DebAudio Consultant and Digitization
>  >>>  Specialisthttps://www.linkedin.com/in/abhimonyudeb
>  >>>
>  >>>   On Saturday, 20 November, 2021, 09:53:59 pm IST, Richard L.
>Hess
>  >>>  <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>  >>>
>  >>>   Hi, Abbimonyu,
>  >>>
>  >>>   This issue comes up in regard to many different machines. When
>I had
>  >>>  my
>  >>>   A80s, I used them for acetate tapes on a regular basis. I
>haven't
>  >>>  used
>  >>>   an A807 for a long time (as I preferred the A810 over the A807
>for
>  >>>  many
>  >>>   reasons, and the A80 over the A810).
>  >>>
>  >>>   In many respects, I think that the Sony APR-5000 is the
>gentlest of
>  >>>  the
>  >>>   list I posted. On the  other hand, I had no bad feedback from
>the
>  >>>  two
>  >>>   A807s (refurbished by Roger Ginsley) that were sold into an
>archiving
>  >>>
>  >>>   project in Pakistan to use alongside their Tascam BR-20s
>(which I did
>  >>>
>  >>>   not suggest for the current project because many versions were
>not
>  >>>  made
>  >>>   with power supply voltage selection).
>  >>>
>  >>>   However, to answer Tim Gillette's rephrasing of the question,
>we
>  >>>  might
>  >>>   consider machines that start the capstan motor when going into
>play
>  >>>  so
>  >>>   you are not banging the stopped tape into the full-speed
>capstan. The
>  >>>
>  >>>   Sony APR-5000 works that way and mutes the audio for a short
>period
>  >>>  of
>  >>>   time at startup.
>  >>>
>  >>>   You weren't missing something and it is good that you posted.
>Perhaps
>  >>>  I
>  >>>   didn't provide enough weight to that criteria.
>  >>>
>  >>>   I'd be interested in hearing more about the fragile acetate
>tapes
>  >>>  that
>  >>>   you encounter as I've been surprised at how well the Scotch
>111 and
>  >>>   Audio Devices acetate tapes have held up. I've even been
>pleased with
>  >>>
>  >>>   the paper tapes I've transferred as well. The only really
>fragile
>  >>>   acetate tape I've come across was one that sat behind a wood
>stove
>  >>>   through several Vermont winters. One face was welded together
>and
>  >>>  broke
>  >>>   on ever rotation of the supply reel.
>  >>>
>  >>>   The one thing that seems to fail for me are splices onto paper
>  >>>  leader. I
>  >>>   have to remake all those splices after baking in many
>instances, but
>  >>>   that's with back-coated polyester tapes.
>  >>>
>  >>>   Cheers,
>  >>>
>  >>>   Richard
>  >>>
>  >>>   On 2021-11-19 8:41 p.m., Abhimonyu Deb wrote:
>  >>>   > Given the notable list of people who have replied so far,
>normally
>  >>>  I would keep my mouth shut.
>  >>>   > However, I do think everyone is missing an important point.
>  >>>   >
>  >>>   > Dave mentions that the machine should be able to play
>fragile
>  >>>  acetate tapes. The A80’s, 807’s and Otari 5050’s that
>I’ve
>  >>>  worked with would fail miserably here unless I’m missing
>something.
>  >>>   > Abhimonyu Debhttp://linkedin.com/in/abhimonyudeb
>  >>>   >
>  >>>   >
>  >>>   >
>  >>>   > On Saturday, November 20, 2021, 6:42 AM, James Perrett
>  >>>  <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>  >>>   >
>  >>>   > On Sat, 20 Nov 2021 at 00:55, Richard L. Hess
>  >>>  <[log in to unmask]>
>  >>>   > wrote:
>  >>>   >
>  >>>   >>
>  >>>   >> Long ago, a company I think called
>  >>>   >> "DarkLab" in Germany made EIA to DIN adapters out of
>plastic.
>  >>>   >>
>  >>>   >>
>  >>>   > They still make them and sell them on Ebay. I bought some a
>few
>  >>>  months ago
>  >>>   > but haven't used them yet.
>  >>>   >
>  >>>   > James.
>  >>>   >
>  >>>
>  >>>   --
>  >>>   Richard L. Hess                  email:
>  >>> [log in to unmask]
>  >>>   Aurora, Ontario,
>Canada                            647
>  >>>  479 2800
>  >>>   http://www.richardhess.com/tape/contact.htm
>  >>>   Track Format - Speed - Equalization - Azimuth - Noise
>Reduction
>  >>>   Quality tape transfers -- even from hard-to-play tapes.
>  >>>
>  >>>  -------------------------
>  >>>  Email sent using Optus Webmail
>  >>>
>  >>
>  >> --
>  >> Richard L. Hess                  email:
>[log in to unmask]
>  >> Aurora, Ontario,
>Canada                            647 479
>2800
>  >> http://www.richardhess.com/tape/contact.htm
>  >> Track Format - Speed - Equalization - Azimuth - Noise Reduction
>  >> Quality tape transfers -- even from hard-to-play tapes.
>  >>
>
>  --
>  Richard L. Hess email: [log in to unmask]
>  Aurora, Ontario, Canada 647 479 2800
>http://www.richardhess.com/tape/contact.htm
>  Track Format - Speed - Equalization - Azimuth - Noise Reduction
>  Quality tape transfers -- even from hard-to-play tapes.
>
>-------------------------
>Email sent using Optus Webmail

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