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ARSCLIST  January 2022

ARSCLIST January 2022

Subject:

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [ARSCLIST] Rolling Stone says CDs are back

From:

Ron Roscoe <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Mon, 24 Jan 2022 15:23:38 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (501 lines)

Gary is the best!!  And so is his paper:  "1996 ARSC Journal paper "Disc Recording Equalization Demystified",
Ron Roscoe

-----Original Message-----
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dennis Rooney
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2022 12:26 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ARSCLIST] Rolling Stone says CDs are back

We are all indebted to Gary Galo for his persistent slaying of audio urban
legends such as have cluttered this site in recent days.

DDR

On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 12:21 PM Gary A. Galo <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> 2) is more-or-less correct - many early converters switched back and forth
> between the left and right channels, causing an inter-channel time delay,
> as I noted in my ARSC presentation on the PCM-F1. The channels weren’t
> out-of-phase, however, which would imply a 180 degree difference. The
> difference was more like 40 degrees, as I showed in my presentation on the
> PCM-F1 last spring.
>
> 1) is not correct. RIAA EQ was not applied to a master tape. Magnetic disc
> cutter heads are constant-velocity transducers. Between the playback tape
> deck and the cutter amplifier, there's a filter network  that alters the
> incoming flat response to insert the two constant-displacement portions of
> the RIAA curve, so that what's cut on the record by the constant-velocity
> transducer becomes constant-velocity below 50 Hz, constant-displacement
> between 50 and 500.5, constant-velocity between 500.5 and 2122, and
> constant-displacement between 2122 and the upper end of the spectrum.
>
> Best,
> Gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <
> [log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of D. Allen
> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2022 12:03 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ARSCLIST] Rolling Stone says CDs
> are back
>
> two things
> 1) many original cd’s used master tapes with riaa curve applied.
> 2) the first cd player analogue was out of phase, digital stream is left
> then right not simultaneously as analogue does
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 10:59 John Haley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > Great explanation, Gary.  Thanks for setting things straight on all of
> > this.  I get very impatient these days when I see opinions in print
> > based upon  the creed that Analog = good, Digital = bad.  Life is not
> > nearly that simple.  There is good, bad and ugly in every format, and
> > that has always been true.  And as you know, I wholeheartedly agree
> > that higher resolution formats, with higher sampling rates and greater
> > bit depth, can sound noticeably better than Redbook's 44/16.  They
> > just do.  It's not hard to hear.
> >
> > Best,
> > John H. Haley
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 10:39 AM Gary A. Galo <
> > [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > A few comments in response to Paul and Tim...
> > >
> > > First, although the 50 uS/15 uS pre-emphasis specification was part
> > > of
> > the
> > > Sony/Philips Red Book of standards for the Compact Disc, very few
> > > manufacturers actually used it. Out of some 8000 CDs in my
> > > collection,
> > less
> > > than 100 have pre-emphasis, and those are almost entirely Japanese
> > > discs manufactured by Denon, either on the Denon label or on discs
> > > they manufactured for other labels (like early Music and Arts CDs).
> > > Those time constants represent the two turnover frequencies; there's
> > > a
> > high-frequency
> > > boost that begins at 3183Hz (the+3dB point), shelving at 10610Hz.
> > >
> > > Back in the early 1990s I built two sample rate converters based on
> > > evaluation boards I got from Analog Devices for their AD1890 series
> > > of sample rate converter chips. I put an LED on each one that lights
> > > up whenever a pre-emphasis flag is detected on a CD. At that time I
> > > checked all of the CDs in my collection and put a note on each tray
> > > card for
> > discs
> > > that had pre-emphasis. Although those SRCs have been obsolete for
> > decades,
> > > I still use them with an old CD transport to check for pre-emphasis
> > > on
> > old
> > > CDs that I acquire.
> > >
> > > Suffice to say, pre-emphasis was not the reason that early CDs
> > > sounded harsh and bright because complementary de-emphasis was
> > > applied by the CD player in playback. There's much confusion about
> > > the reason for pre-emphasis/de-emphasis on early CDs. The usual
> > > explanation is that it reduced noise. Yes, it’s true that noise from
> > > early A/D and D/A
> > converters
> > > was reduced by boosting the top end with an analog filter AHEAD of
> > > the
> > A/D
> > > conversion, and applying a complementary cut with an analog filter
> > > AFTER the D/A conversion. It must be pointed out that the Red Book
> > > pre-emphasis specification was conceived when Sony and Philips
> > > envisioned the CD to
> > be a
> > > 14-bit format, a frightening thought from where we sit today. These
> > > early converters not only had high noise levels, but they also had
> > > very poor low-level linearity. The poor linearity was exacerbated by
> > > the fact that most of those alleged 14-bit converters barely made 13
> bit performance.
> > > When the CD was finally introduced, technology had evolved to the
> > > point where it was possible to make it a 16-bit format (thank The
> > > Force for
> > that
> > > one!). But, again, most early 16-bit converters barely made 14-bits
> > > when
> > it
> > > came to noise levels and low-level linearity.  Improving low-level
> > > linearity was the main benefit of Red Book pre-emphasis, with noise
> > > reduction coming along as part of the package. Some early digital
> > recorders
> > > also implemented pre-emphasis, including the Sony PCM-F1, which
> > > could be used as either a 14- or 16-bit recorder.
> > >
> > > Limitations in the old converters were the main reason why early CDs
> > > -
> > and
> > > players - sounded harsh and bright. But, this is a long-solved problem.
> > > Based on CDs in my own collection, by about 1990 the humble Compact
> > > Disc began to sound very good if done properly. I still use many of
> > > the
> > Mercury
> > > Living Presence reissued from the early 1990s as reference material
> > > for equipment evaluation (those amazing Mercury tapes were carefully
> > > transferred using a dcs A/D converter that was well ahead of most of
> > > the competition). Yes, I am a big fan of high-res formats. Higher
> > > sampling rates and bit depths do, indeed, sound better. But the
> > > nasties that we
> > once
> > > associated with Compact Discs have been a thing of the past for a
> > > long time.
> > >
> > > For reference, my CD playback system consists of an Audiolab
> > > CDT-6000 CD transport and a Benchmark DAC3 HGC D/A converter. For
> > > high-res material,
> > I
> > > use an Oppo UDP-205 high-res player as a transport or server,
> > > feeding a Geerfab D.Bob via HDMI which, in turn, sends native
> > > high-res PCM or DSD
> > via
> > > S/PDIF to the Benchmark DAC. Information on those products can be
> > > found
> > > here:
> > >
> > > https://benchmarkmedia.com/collections/digital-to-analog-audio-conve
> > > rter
> > > https://geerfab.com/audio/
> > > https://www.audiolab.co.uk/6000cdt/
> > >
> > > I have proposed a presentation for the upcoming ARSC virtual
> > > conference
> > on
> > > the Red Book pre-emphasis standard, why it was used, how it was
> > originally
> > > implemented, along with various methods for applying the de-emphasis
> > curves
> > > in the digital domain (some more successful than others). I won't
> > > know until early February if my proposal will be accepted. Stay tuned.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Gary
> > >
> > > Gary Galo
> > > Audio Engineer Emeritus
> > > The Crane School of Music
> > > SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
> > >
> > > "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
> > > Arnold Schoenberg
> > >
> > > "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be believed."
> > > Igor Markevitch
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <
> > > [log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Tim Gillett
> > > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2022 5:57 AM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ARSCLIST] Rolling Stone says
> > > CDs are back
> > >
> > > Yes initially on the CD, treble was pre emphasised, and the CD
> > > player was designed to de emphasise it, cancelling the effect out.
> > > So when used as designed there was no  tinnyness in CD's.
> > >
> > > Vinyl  used, and still  uses the RIAA curve which, like early CD pre
> > > emphasis, is corrected on playback.
> > >
> > > Magnetic analog audio tape also used and still uses pre emphasis and
> > > the signal is corrected  at playback.
> > >
> > > Unlike vinyl and audio tape, when converters greatly improved over
> > > the years, eventually CD  pre emphasis and de emphasis was deemed
> > unnecessary.
> > >
> > > That's my understanding any way.
> > >
> > > Stereo Lab - CD de-emphasis (pspatialaudio.com) [1]
> > >
> > > Tim Gillett
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: [log in to unmask]
> > > To:<[log in to unmask]>
> > > Cc:
> > > Sent:Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:28:11 -0800
> > > Subject:Re: [ARSCLIST] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ARSCLIST] Rolling Stone says
> > > CDs are back
> > >
> > >  I was going to stay out of this. Initially most CDs sounded a bit
> > > tiny, as in tin pan. There also was less dynamic. That issue may
> > > have been solved on some but not others.
> > >
> > >  On 1/21/2022 7:22 PM, Tim Gillett wrote:
> > >  >
> > >  > An irony is the introduction of digital recording and the CD made
> > > it
> > >
> > > possible for consumers to  hear effectively for the first time  >
> > directly
> > > from "the original analog master tape", without intervening  > tape
> > > or vinyl bottlenecks. Especially classical music lovers embraced  >
> > > the
> > truer
> > > sound, and freedom from disc wear etc.
> > >  >
> > >  > Many people embrace something new because it's new - for them -
> > > > however limited a perspective that is.
> > >  >
> > >  > Tim Gillett
> > >  > ----- Original Message -----
> > >  > From:[log in to unmask]
> > >  > To:<[log in to unmask]>
> > >  > Cc:
> > >  > Sent:Fri, 21 Jan 2022 22:25:24 +0000  > Subject:Re: [ARSCLIST]
> > > [EXTERNAL] Re: [ARSCLIST] Rolling Stone says  > CDs are back  >  >
> > > For some of the projects that I work on I get to transfer all the  >
> > > tapes  > involved in making an album including the multitracks, the
> > > original  > masters  > and the production masters. It
> > was
> > > standard practice for major label  > vinyl  > masters to be cut from
> > > a second or third generation production master  > back  > in the day
> > > and, while the original master may have been recorded at  > 30ips,
> > > > the production master would often run at 15ips as a full side of
> > > an  >
> > album  >
> > > wouldn't fit on a 10.5" reel at 30ips. Nowadays I wouldn't be that
> > > > confident about cutting an album from the original tapes as there
> > > can  > be  > defects on some tapes which require a little editing.
> > > For the  > projects that  > I work on, everything is digitised in
> > > the 96kHz 24 bit format which  > gives  > an accurate representation
> > > of what is on the
> > tape
> > > in my experience.
> > >  >
> > >  > James.
> > >  >
> > >  > On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 at 20:18, Gary A. Galo <  >
> > > [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >  >
> > >  > > The other reason for using digital masters - from what I've
> > > been  > told by  > > people in the industry - is that the major
> > > record companies are  > very  > > concerned about the fragile and
> > > deteriorating condition
> > of
> > > the  > classic  > > analog tapes that are so prized by audiophiles.
> > > A
> > disc
> > > cutting  > engineer  > > usually needs to spot check several
> > > sections of
> > a
> > > master tape in  > order to  > > get everything ready to go, and the
> > record
> > > companies are concerned  > about  > > the wear and tear on those
> > > tapes if multiple attempts are needed.
> > >  > So, they
> > >  > > make a one-shot digital transfer, which requires playing the
> > > old  > tapes only  > > one time.
> > >  > >
> > >  > > A few years ago, a well-known audiophile reissue company
> > > embarked  > on  > > reissuing a major series of recordings from the
> > > early days of  > stereo on  > > both SACD and vinyl. They claim an
> > > "all-analog" signal
> > path.
> > > From  > what I  > > was told by reliable sources, their claim is
> > > true,
> > but
> > > their SACDs  > and LPs  > > were not cut directly from the original
> > tapes.
> > > The fragile,  > original tapes  > > were carefully copied to new,
> > > 30-ips analog tapes. Those copy tapes  > were  > > used as the
> > > masters for the SACDs and vinyl releases, minimizing  > any  > >
> > > further wear on the originals.
> > >  > >
> > >  > > I think it's now pretty rare that an audiophile reissue,
> > > licensed  > by a  > > third-party vendor, is made directly from the
> > > original tape,
> > and
> > > > most new  > > LPs of vintage material do, indeed, seem to be
> > > > sourced
> > from
> > > digital  > copies.
> > >  > >
> > >  > > Best,
> > >  > > Gary
> > >  > >
> > >  > > -----Original Message-----
> > >  > > From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <  > >
> > > [log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of John Haley  > > Sent:
> > > Thursday, January 20, 2022 10:44 PM  > >
> > > To:[log in to unmask]  > >
> > Subject:
> > > Re: [ARSCLIST] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ARSCLIST] Rolling Stone  > says CDs
> > > > >
> > are
> > > back  > >  > > I think Gary is absolutely right. I am sure that
> > > every
> > vinyl
> > > record  > > pressed by a major record company today is coming from a
> > > digital  > master.
> > >  > > For one thing, no one "in the business" is going to give up
> > > digital
> > > > > editing. With all the great digital editing and restoration
> > > > > tools  >
> > >
> > > available, we are never going back to the world of editing by means
> > > > of tape  > > splicing with a razor blade, scraping oxide off a
> > > tape to
> > remove
> > > > noises,  > > etc. And the last time I looked, there is no analog
> > audio  >
> > > restoration  > > program for your computer!
> > >  > >
> > >  > > Best
> > >  > > John Haley
> > >  > >
> > >  > > On Thu, Jan 20, 2022, 5:59 PM Gary A. Galo <  > >
> > > [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >  > >
> > >  > > > Steve is right - a lot of audiophile LPs are mastered from  >
> > > digital files.
> > >  > > > These included many classic analog master tapes that have
> > > been  >
> > >
> > > > digitized and then cut to vinyl from the new digital masters.
> > > To
> > >  > me,
> > >  > > that's P.T.
> > >  > > > Barnum at work. If you hate digital and love analog, you are
> > > > entitled  > > > to your view. But be careful about drawing
> > > conclusions about how  > much  > > > better vinyl is than digital
> > > when the vinyl records you're buying  > are  > > > cut from digital
> > > masters. One of the problems, of course, is that  > a  > > > lot of
> > > vinyl collectors have no way of knowing how their records  > were  >
> > > > > made, because many manufacturers of vinyl releases keep the  >
> details to  > > themselves.
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > > Best,
> > >  > > > Gary
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > > Gary Galo
> > >  > > > Audio Engineer Emeritus
> > >  > > > The Crane School of Music
> > >  > > > SUNY at Potsdam, NY 13676
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > > "Great art presupposes the alert mind of the educated listener."
> > >  > > > Arnold Schoenberg
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > > "A true artist doesn't want to be admired, he wants to be  >
> > > believed."
> > >  > > > Igor Markevitch
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > > -----Original Message-----
> > >  > > > From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <  > > >
> > > [log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Steve Smolian  > > > Sent:
> > > Thursday, January 20, 2022 12:14 AM  > > >
> > > To:[log in to unmask]
> > > > > > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [ARSCLIST] Rolling Stone says CDs are
> > > > > > >
> > > back  > > >  > > > This message did not originate from SUNY Potsdam
> > > or
> > one
> > > of its  > trusted  > > > senders. Do not open attachments, click on
> > links,
> > > or provide your  > > > credentials if the source is suspicious.
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > > My current favorite piano sound "bath" is Simone
> > > Dinnerstein's  > playing  > > > with Zuill Bailey on Telarc's
> Beethoven Cello Sonatas.
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > > On the other side of the same hand, there is also the
> > > absurdity  > of  > > > copying born digital recordings to LP which
> > > brings back good
> > old
> > > > wow  > > > and flutter, limits the dynamic range, and reintroduces
> > > > >
> > > accumulated  > > > low level hums disguised as "warmth."
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > > Steve Smolian
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > > -----Original Message-----
> > >  > > > From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <  > > >
> > > [log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Giovanni Punto  > > > Sent:
> > > Wednesday, January 19, 2022 10:00 PM  > > >
> > > To:[log in to unmask]
> > > > > > Subject: [ARSCLIST] Rolling Stone says CDs are back  > > >  >
> > > > > > > > I
> > > was expecting the usual "The Millennials Discover Their  > Parent's
> > > > >
> > >
> > > ____ and Think it's Way Cool" article written by some reporter  > >
> > > > unfamiliar with the item and who just didn't get it.
> > >  > Surprisingly,
> > >  > > > this guy is not just talking
> > >  > > > (writing) through his hat and puts into words some of the
> > > vague  >
> > > > > thoughts and feelings I have about CDs and other hard copy media
> > > > > >
> > vs.
> > >  > > > disembodied downloads and streams. He also comes up some  >
> > > interesting  > > > points concerning box sets that I hadn't thought of.
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > > Maybe some of the rest of you share his and my attachment to
> > > the
> > >
> > > > > concrete object, too (I know that this is a ridiculous  >
> > > understatement  > > > to make to this crowd). Or you may disagree
> > > with everything he  > writes.
> > >  > > > In either case, I think the article is worth reading through.
> > > I  > hope  > > > this link works for you. I linked to the article
> > > from a blog,
> > > > there  > > > may have been something in the link to get past a pay
> > wall.
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > >
> > >  > > >
> > >  >
> > > https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/cd-revival-compact
> > > -d
> > >  > > > iscs-rob-sheffield-1284487/
> > >  > > >
> > >  > >
> > >  >
> > >  > --
> > >  >
> > > ********************************************************************
> > > **
> > >  > * James Perrett
> > >  > * JRP Music Services, Hampshire, U.K.
> > >  > * Audio Mastering, Restoration, Recording and Consultancy  > *
> > > Phone
> > > +44 (0) 777 600 6107  > * [log in to unmask]  > *
> > > http://www.jrpmusic.net  >
> > > ********************************************************************
> > > **
> > >  >
> > >  > -------------------------
> > >  > Email sent using Optus Webmail
> > >
> > > -------------------------
> > > Email sent using Optus Webmail
> > >
> > > Links:
> > > ------
> > > [1] http://pspatialaudio.com/cd_deemp.htm
> > >
> > >
> >
>


-- 
1006 Langer Way
Delray Beach, FL 33483
561.265.2976

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