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ARSCLIST  November 2022

ARSCLIST November 2022

Subject:

Re: Wire recording archival housing vendor

From:

Angie Dickinson Mickle <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 13 Nov 2022 07:23:47 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (296 lines)

A lot of things to address here.

Paul, if you are storing with the boxes, you will find that different 
brands at different times had different sized boxes.  The spool sizes 
are standardized. I would recommend keeping the spools in the original 
container unless there is a mold or rust issue.

Which way to store them (horizontal or vertical) makes no difference as 
long as the wire end has been properly secured.  If the wire is spooling 
off, it was not secured and should be address.  Vertical storage will 
help keep the wire from shifting too much and spooling off if it does 
become loose.

In regard to bleed, yes, there can be some noticeable bleed depending on 
the volume at which the wire was originally recorded.  Storing tails out 
is possible with Nick's machine for all wire sizes, and can be done with 
modified Webster-Chicago machines for the more common 2.75" size, though 
not easily.  Most of these wires have been sitting heads out for 70+ 
years.  How much will winding tails out help now?


Angie Dickinson Mickle
Avocado Productions
Zephyr Room Studio
Broomfield, CO
www.avocadoproductions.com
303-719-1707

On 11/12/2022 2:10 PM, Paul Jackson wrote:
> I don't remember anything about the machine or the taping and sound, or 
> storage, except when I was young, my uncle, a minister, had all of his 
> sermons on wire, and would record the family's talking at Thanksgiving.
> This would have been in the 1940s. Sorry I can't help. ;-) I remember it 
> looked something like this one:
> 
> Paul Jackson
> 
> On 11/12/2022 12:44 PM, Richard L. Hess wrote:
>> I stand corrected, thanks Steve and Corey.
>>
>> The Peirce seems to have identical takeup and supply reels and looks 
>> similar to the GE. I saw an interesting article in Audio Engineering 
>> Dec 1953 on World Radio History about magnetic performance of 
>> stainless steel wire.
>>
>> https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-Audio/50s/Audio-1953-Dec.pdf 
>> <https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAMQw7AJahcKEwiIzsuTvan7AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fworldradiohistory.com%2FArchive-All-Audio%2FArchive-Audio%2F50s%2FAudio-1953-Dec.pdf&psig=AOvVaw0egieA6glEfdyIe0YAc3yF&ust=1668371190270101> 
>>
>>
>> I guess most of the wire recorders I've seen are the Webster ones with 
>> the fixed takeup reels.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Richard
>>
>> On 2022-11-12 2:38 p.m., Steve Smolian wrote:
>>> Actually, there are at least two wire systems that work like tape 
>>> transports, with removable reels on both sides.  GE had one and I 
>>> forgot the other.
>>>
>>> Steve Smolian
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion 
>>> List<[log in to unmask]>  On Behalf Of Richard L. Hess
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2022 2:29 PM
>>> To:[log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Wire recording archival housing vendor
>>>
>>> I would talk to Nicholas Bergh and/or Angie Dickenson Mickle, both on 
>>> the ARSC technical committee. Both restore wires and come at it from 
>>> two different directions. Nick has built the ultimate wire player and 
>>> Angie uses well-maintained, selected vintage machines.
>>>
>>> Wires are almost always stored heads out as the takeup reel is fixed 
>>> to the player and the wire must be rewound to be removed.
>>>
>>> Wires are easily tangled especially if the ends are not secured.
>>>
>>> I chaired a session on wires at the last ARSC conference, Angie and 
>>> Nick were the two major contributors. I got to hear this from them.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>> On 2022-11-12 2:08 p.m., CBAUDIO wrote:
>>>> Hi Paul,
>>>>
>>>> I can't find a reference as to how wire recordings should be stored
>>>> either. Perhaps someone with the knowledge will post. I also haven't
>>>> (knowingly) experienced the cross-talk that has been mentioned in any
>>>> of the wire recordings that I have transferred, although I have
>>>> wondered about it. Should recorded wire be stored tails out like
>>>> reel-to-reel audio tape? All of the wire recordings, that I have
>>>> encountered, have been stored heads out. I have only come across a
>>>> plain steel wire recording once, and it was on a 1/4" shafted hub.
>>>>
>>>> One thing I can say is that if your institution has a working player,
>>>> it would be good to address those wires that have become unraveled.
>>>> One of those 'Round Tuit' projects. :)
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> CB
>>>> Corey Bailey
>>>> www.baileyzone.net
>>>>
>>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>>> From: "Paul Sutherland"<[log in to unmask]>
>>>> To:"[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>; "CBAUDIO"
>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Sent: 11/12/2022 7:32:45 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Wire recording archival housing vendor
>>>>
>>>>> I'll be honest, I'm struggling to find the reference now. I thought I
>>>>> read it here
>>>>> <https://cool.culturalheritage.org/byform/mailing-lists/arsclist/2009 
>>>>> /05/msg00001.html>  (ARSCLIST post from 2009), but I can't see any
>>>>> discussion of orientation there except the initial question. You can
>>>>> probably safely ignore my assertion here.
>>>>>
>>>>> (That thread is also where I saw mention of removing the original
>>>>> cardboard container.)
>>>>>
>>>>> That said, I imagine there might be some difference if the wire is
>>>>> partially unravelled, which quite a lot of ours are. We have one
>>>>> extreme case of a wire that is very unravelled (fortunately after
>>>>> digitization, I'm not sure at what point it became so unravelled),
>>>>> and I can imagine it being detrimental to any future salvage to put
>>>>> the weight of the vertical spool on the unravelled wire. Also, as the
>>>>> proposed microfilm packaging is larger than the wire recording and
>>>>> the wire has no original packaging (again, a few cases for us),
>>>>> transporting them vertically would lead to rolling, which in the case
>>>>> of partially unravelled wire would mean rolling over loose wire. This
>>>>> seems unnecessary to me, so if it made no difference otherwise, I
>>>>> would be happy to store them flat.
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Paul Sutherland
>>>>> Archivist atwww.amphilsoc.org/library/CNAIR  Musician at
>>>>> www.hearlambeth.com
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> -----------
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>  on behalf of CBAUDIO
>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2022 02:20To:[log in to unmask] 
>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Wire recording archival housing vendor
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Paul,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm curious; Where did you come across the knowledge that wire
>>>>> recordings should be stored flat? I wasn't aware that it could make a
>>>>> difference. I was aware that motion picture film is to be stored flat
>>>>> but wire recordings?
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> CB
>>>>> Corey Bailey
>>>>> www.baileyzone.net
>>>>>
>>>>> ------ Original Message ------
>>>>> From: "Paul Sutherland"<[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> To:[log in to unmask]
>>>>> Sent: 11/11/2022 6:46:32 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Wire recording archival housing vendor
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you so much everybody!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Based on the info so far, I think I may need to go with microfilm
>>>>> boxes. Unless someone is able to identify explicitly designed wire
>>>>> housing.
>>>>>> Corey - I've read that removing the original cardboard boxes is best
>>>>> for long-term storage, but yes, there is much metadata on those that
>>>>> it would be useful to keep. If others think that it's actually okay
>>>>> to keep them in their original cardboard boxes, I would go with this.
>>>>> We also unfortunately don't yet have cold storage available for these
>>>>> but hopefully soon. Thanks also for the post about playing them.
>>>>>> It's also my understanding that they should be stored flat
>>>>> (horizontally). I could stack microfilm reels like that in larger
>>>>> archival boxes.
>>>>>> The Webster-Chicago boxes fit into a 16mm microfilm box. Silvertone
>>>>> ones (blue, round boxes) don't, so I would use 35mm microfilm boxes.
>>>>>> I'd rather have individual housing than having to construct
>>>>> dividers, but that's definitely an option. A 7" or 10.5" reel-to-reel
>>>>> box would be quite economical though, divided up that's 4 or 9 spaces
>>>>> for 3.5"x3.5".
>>>>>> Thanks for the reminder to tape the wire down too!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Appreciate all the info so far.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> Paul Sutherland
>>>>>> Archivist at
>>>>> www.amphilsoc.org/library/CNAIR<http://www.amphilsoc.org/library/CNAI 
>>>>> R> 
>>>>> <http://www.amphilsoc.org/library/CNAIR<http://www.amphilsoc.org/libr 
>>>>> ary/CNAIR>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Musician atwww.hearlambeth.com<http://www.hearlambeth.com>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>  on behalf of Paul Jackson
>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 18:10
>>>>>> To:[log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Wire recording archival housing vendor
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One place to check for such storage boxes would be Uline:
>>>>>> https://catalog.uline.com/Fall-Winter-US-2022/82/#
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another may be, University Products. They are very good for Museum
>>>>>> storage materials.https://www.universityproducts.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/10/2022 9:43 AM, Lance Watsky wrote:
>>>>>>>   Hi Paul,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Back when I worked at the State of Georgia Archives, we would get
>>>>> boxes and create dividers for delicate objects.
>>>>>>>   You may want to contact Conversation Supply companies, like 
>>>>>>> Gaylord.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Best,
>>>>>>>   Lance
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Lance Watsky
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Manager of Media Archives & Licensing
>>>>>>>   Sherman Grinberg Film Library
>>>>>>>   21011 Itasca Street
>>>>>>>   Chatsworth, CA 91311
>>>>>>>   C: (909) 223-7941<tel:%28909%29%20223-7941>
>>>>>>> E:[log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   ________________________________
>>>>>>>   From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion
>>>>> List<[log in to unmask]>   on behalf of Paul
>>>>> Sutherland<[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>   Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 7:52 AM
>>>>>>> To:[log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>   Subject: [ARSCLIST] Wire recording archival housing vendor
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Hi all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   We have a number of wire recordings on original spools in
>>>>> original cardboard boxes, that we are looking to rehouse. They are
>>>>> standard commercial size (2.75" diameter, 0.6-ish" wide). Some are
>>>>> starting to unravel, though fortunately they were almost all already
>>>>> digitized. My main concern is giving them individual housing so the
>>>>> wires do not tangle with others.
>>>>>>>   ARSC's guide
>>>>> (p64)<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.clir.o 
>>>>> rg_wp-2Dcontent_uploads_sites_6_2015_05_ARSC-2Dw-2Dcover.pdf&d=DwIFAw 
>>>>> &c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=Kp4tmL90KaBMzYo2uBG6 
>>>>> UY1FLVcV8J78ZNTo3170Ups&m=n2FQz1znjkBuCJuvfRFTUwlovOe4m0_Z1ytfGUrtjIQ 
>>>>> &s=Tiixwv4G0iITLG38Pk71QHrl9YayXLWsnWjivbFtooI&e=>
>>>>>   says they should be stored in acid-free boxes of the appropriate
>>>>> size, but I have not been able to find a vendor selling the right
>>>>> size - either labeled as for wire recordings or reel-to-reel audio
>>>>> tapes. I imagined I might find 3" reel-to-reel tape boxes at
>>>>> Hollinger or Gaylord, but they only go down to 7". The closest
>>>>> possibly suitable thing I can find is microfilm storage boxes, but
>>>>> those are also slightly bigger (3.75" diameter).
>>>>>>>   Does anybody know of a vendor selling acid-free boxes for wire
>>>>> recordings? Or has anyone had success getting custom ones made, or
>>>>> using something of similar size?
>>>>>>>   Thanks!
>>>>>>>   Paul
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   ---
>>>>>>>   Paul Sutherland
>>>>>>>   Archivist
>>>>> athttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.amphilsoc.o
>>>>> rg_library_CNAIR&d=DwIFAw&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfii
>>>>> MM&r=Kp4tmL90KaBMzYo2uBG6UY1FLVcV8J78ZNTo3170Ups&m=n2FQz1znjkBuCJuvfR
>>>>> FTUwlovOe4m0_Z1ytfGUrtjIQ&s=K4yQ8LNzBK7HMrED2szW92aFTuYEYEtUrWJX8kotc
>>>>> wo&e=<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.amphils 
>>>>> oc.org_library_CNAIR&d=DwIFAw&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_Cdpgn 
>>>>> VfiiMM&r=Kp4tmL90KaBMzYo2uBG6UY1FLVcV8J78ZNTo3170Ups&m=n2FQz1znjkBuCJ 
>>>>> uvfRFTUwlovOe4m0_Z1ytfGUrtjIQ&s=K4yQ8LNzBK7HMrED2szW92aFTuYEYEtUrWJX8 
>>>>> kotcwo&e=>
>>>>>>>   Musician
>>>>> athttps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.hearlambeth
>>>>> .com&d=DwIFAw&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=Kp4tmL9
>>>>> 0KaBMzYo2uBG6UY1FLVcV8J78ZNTo3170Ups&m=n2FQz1znjkBuCJuvfRFTUwlovOe4m0
>>>>> _Z1ytfGUrtjIQ&s=iAow4vIf0Yo658iZ-0OWoROCEWYOvLOdqB_QbBC6jwE&e=<https: 
>>>>> //urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.hearlambeth.com&d=D 
>>>>> wIFAw&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=Kp4tmL90KaBMzYo 
>>>>> 2uBG6UY1FLVcV8J78ZNTo3170Ups&m=n2FQz1znjkBuCJuvfRFTUwlovOe4m0_Z1ytfGU 
>>>>> rtjIQ&s=iAow4vIf0Yo658iZ-0OWoROCEWYOvLOdqB_QbBC6jwE&e=>
>>

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