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SF-LIT  May 1995

SF-LIT May 1995

Subject:

Re: "sci-fi" vs. SF

From:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Sat, 29 Apr 1995 17:59:49 -0400

Content-Type:

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Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (29769 lines)

>
>sci-fi always seemed to place those of us who loved it into a "not to be
taken serious" area. SF sounds more like a subject matter to be looked at
seriously.
> Being a longtime SF reader and viewer has made me more aware of other
peoples perception of us that live this type of world. We need to change the
image that we are nothing to be taken lightly and that we are to be looked
upon in the manner of those who in other fields enjoy. 


From [log in to unmask]  Sat Apr 29 19:37:21 1995
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Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 16:37:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fran Skene <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Bob Shaw's Orbitsville
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Thu, 27 Apr 1995, Kevin P. Mulcahy ([log in to unmask]) wrote:

> Actually a bigger engineering feat than the ringworld is the Dyson sphere in
> Bob Shaw's Orbitsville (I wonder if there is a variant title, but Orbitsville
> is what my copy says.

***
I'm very fond of Bob Shaw - I spent time drinking with him at a couple of
Eastercons and I think his Serious Scientific speeches are hilarious - but
I read Orbitsville when it first came out and was turned off by his
depiction of women in this novel:  evil or stupid.  No other choices. For
me, the Wonder of his Dyson sphere was overshadowed by the
characterization. 

Now, this was a while ago and many writers are more aware now of such 
issues, probably Bob as well.

Cheers,   Fran

From [log in to unmask]  Sat Apr 29 22:44:51 1995
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Looking for a Juvenile 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 28 Apr 1995 17:50:29 EDT."
             <[log in to unmask]> 
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 22:44:43 EDT
From: Jen Hawthorne <[log in to unmask]>


>>two boys, (perhaps with a girl) build a vehicle to travel to the moon...
>>someone  tells them to take a chicken with them (for luck?)...
>>they get where they get, find a dying race of beings.....
>>said beings are suffering from a lack of sulfer...... 
>>the traveler's chicken provides all the sulfer they need and out of
>gratitude, the dying race helps them return.

The book you're describing is almost certainly "The Wonderful Flight
to the Mushroom Planet." I don't remember a chicken, but I seem to
remember that one of the kids had brought a snack lunch that included
hard-boiled eggs, and the sulfur in the egg yolks was what did the
trick for the dying aliens.  I don't remember the author, sorry.

-- Jen


From [log in to unmask]  Sat Apr 29 23:43:05 1995
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Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 23:43:02 -0500 (EST)
From: John Noel <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for a Juvenile
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]"
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	The book you are referring to with the two boys and the chicken
taking a trip into space is the enchanting "Wonderful Flight to the
Mushroom Planet" by Eleanor Cameron. Four sequels were written, but none
of them surpassed the original in it's sense of wonder and imagination.
	All of the books are still in print, which is really saying
something considering they were juveniles written in the 50's and 60's.
	By the way, no girls went along for the ride.

	Sweating with Effinger in New Orleans

	John Noel

	"Suddenly, the pouting sex kitten gave way to Diana the Huntress."
								--Newt
From [log in to unmask]  Sun Apr 30 02:36:16 1995
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Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 02:36:15 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ANTHRO IN SF AND BIG 3

In the older SF the best Anthropological SF was written by an
Anthropologist, He was Chad Oliver, author of Mists of Dawn,
Shadows in the Sun, Unearthly Neighbors [anthology] etc.

For the big three include Cherryh, Lois McMaster Bujold and if
she keeps it up Octavia Butler. Sadly the men seem to be falling
down on the job though Roger Mcbride Allen may give Octavia 
competition for the third spot.

I think Bujold may be a worthy successor to Heinlein. She may
even share his flaws.

Gary 
Gary L. Swaty


From [log in to unmask]  Sun Apr 30 02:58:32 1995
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Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 02:58:32 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Audio SF lists

DBAPaul wrote...

> Anyone have thoughts on other "alternate media" SF, Asimov's CD ROM, other
audio's? 

As I've written to SF-LIT before...

Some excellent SF on audiotape is available from three of the biggest
mail-order houses; all make generous introductory offers, and all deal in
unabridged work. (A must, in my estimation.)

I especially recommend the performers on Recorded Books, Inc. Their list
includes works by Greg Bear, Ursula LeGuin, Tolkien and William Gibson.
1-800-638-1304

Books on Tape, Inc., has a more traditional (less contemporary) slant on SF,
although its list includes some work by Asimov ("Forward the Foundation," for
instance.) Readers not as engaging as Recorded Books. 1-800-626-3333. 

The Literate Ear offers work from LeGuin and Orson Scott Card, to name a few.
Relatively small catalog, though. 1-800-777-8327.

-----

At retail level, Brilliance Corporation has a number of SF titles on its
list--including the Asimov/Silverberg "Nightfall." But its compression
techniques and poor readings (mispronunciations and inappropriate
inflections) are a distraction. And its tapes come with two separate tracks
on each side of the tape, requiring a left/right adapter (cheap--about $4 at
Radio Shack) if you're listening on a personal stereo with headphones.
1-800-222-3225.

Star Trek books on tape are o-k diversions, but they're all
abridged...leaving little more meat than in a typical episode.

The library, of course, is a good place to start looking for most of this.

Any other recommendations?

Charles Meyerson

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Apr 30 06:58:50 1995
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Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 12:58:12 -0100
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Roar Vinje)
Subject: Re: Paranoia & Enemy Mine
Content-Length: 341

Mark Woolrich wrote:

>Quick question now.  Who wrote the short story "Enemy Mine" that was made 
>into a film of the same name

Barry B. Longyear in Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine Sept '79

Roar Vinje
===========================
[log in to unmask]
Consultant Engineer
P.O.Box 34 
N-7075 Tiller
Norway
===========================


From [log in to unmask]  Sun Apr 30 12:24:57 1995
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Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 09:07:58 -0700
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: UK Bookstores?
To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
X-Mailer: AIR Mail 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)

To my UK friends: 

I am looking for the following books:

	Star Maker by Stapleton
	The Unsleeping Eye by Compton, David Guy
	Villains and Heroes by Carter, Angela
	Arslan by Engh
	Vermilion Sands by Ballard, JG

I desire to find British bookstore contacts. I know that these were done in 
hard back in the UK , and I would accept reading copies. Anyone know of a good 
vendor in the UK? I have the paperbacks of these novels. I would like to add 
to my library, as I believe that I shall reread them over the decades.

Joe de Beauchamp
Seattle, Wa.
[log in to unmask]
[log in to unmask]
http://www.telebyte.com/money.html





From [log in to unmask]  Sun Apr 30 12:25:12 1995
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Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 09:08:08 -0700
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Clark Ashton Smith
To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
Cc: [log in to unmask]
X-Mailer: AIR Mail 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)

Boris Sidyuk,

Your question about Clark Ashton Smith and his Lost Worlds took some delving 
into the shelfs in my Library. I believe that I have found a comparable Sci Fi 
to Smith's works. If you can not find a copy of it, I will be happy to search 
for a paperback for you. I am very fortunate to have a first signed edition of 
Moon Pool by A. Merritt, which was done in 1919! This precedes Smith by nearly 
two decades. I have no idea as to the value of the book.

Moon Pool encompasses the elements of Smith's works (of which I have all of 
Smith's works). The fantasy, romance, adventure, supernatural, and legends are 
weaved into a magical macabre novel. The story begins with a South Sea voyage, 
and scientist-reporter "Throck" castaway on the d'Entrecasteaux Islands. Off 
the coast of Papua, "the sky was smouldering ochre, when she shows herself in 
her sombrest, most baleful mood". "Over the island brooded a spirit sullen, 
alien, implacable, filled with the threat of latent, malefic forces waiting to 
be unleashed". The language use of this Sci Fi, as I have interposed, is 
meritoriously exquisite. "Thock" vanishes in a moon pool of radiance and 
deliquesces into a dimension. In a subterranean landscape, beneath the island, 
he discovers the archetypes of the ancient lore, and a perilous pernicious 
evil abound. These hauntings, which are antediluvian for mankind's history, 
are about to launch a massive attack on the upper world. Yes, actually, are 
demons have been aliens from another universe. "Throck" is able to thwart 
Satan's troops in their final conquest of humanity. 

Merritt, I believe, was the progenitor of Clark Ashton Smith. William Tenn, 
who may be more entertaining, writes in the same persuasion. I hope that you 
will be able to locate The Moon Pool. He writes as eloquently as Smith, and to 
the level of Meryn Peake. Enjoy!

Joe de Beauchamp
Seattle, Washington, United States
[log in to unmask]
[log in to unmask]
http://www.telebyte.com/money.html

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Apr 30 17:31:23 1995
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Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 17:21:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Patricia Altner <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Lucius Shepard
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The only work by Shepard that I have read is The Golden published in 1993 
by Bantam.I was very impressed by this work. His prose is lush and 
poetic. This is a vampire novel and the scene that still stands out in my 
mind is his description of the Castle Banat where the Family (of 
vampires) converge every few centuries to sample the blood of a mortal 
especially bred for this purpose. Unfortunately before the "decanting" 
can take place someone murders the "Golden". 

Here are a few line from the description of Castle Banat: "The interior 
design of Castle Banat had been contrived not with practical 
considerations of fortification or habitation in mind, but according to a 
series of peculiar architectural fantasies created by an Italian artist 
who had been one of the Patriarch's lovers some six hundred years before, 
and its insane enormity reflected the scope and complexity of the problem 
that confronted Beheim." (Beheim is the protagonist, a former chief 
detective of the Paris police, who has been asked to find the "killer").
"Vast chambers as large as entire castles themselves were spanned by 
bridges - some of them draw bridges- that led to doorless walls; 
hundred-foot-wide stariways ended in midair, and there were chambers that 
opened onto gulfs in whose murky depths stranger edifieces yet could be 
glimpsed. Windowed towers sprouted from the most unexpected places and 
rose toward dim vaulted roofs, and here and there were enormous wheels 
such as those used to raise and lower a portcullis, only the majority of 
these had no purpose whatsoever...."

You get the idea. The description goes on for another page and it amazed 
me how he could immerse the reader in the horror of this place with such 
wonderfully poetic language. The story itself was also gripping, but more 
important was the realization by the newborn vampire Beheim, as he conducted 
his investigation and met other, often cruel, members of the Family, just 
what it meant to be one of these immortals.

I would definitly like to read more by this author, and one of these days 
I will. Recently a friend gave me a t-shirt that says "So many books, so 
little time". And that unfortunately is the truth.

Patricia Altner


From [log in to unmask]  Sun Apr 30 20:56:04 1995
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Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 20:56:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: sf/scifi
To: [log in to unmask]
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No problem. All is forguv.

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Apr 30 21:16:26 1995
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Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 21:16:26 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: I made a sale!

In a message dated 95-04-28 21:48:45 EDT, you write:

> I made my second fiction sale!  It's
>a short story entitled "Agatha V"

Congratulations, Marina!  :)

And hi! to the rest of you on the list.  I've been lurking for the last
couple of weeks, and must say that I've found it fascinating so far.

Um...   ::digging in pockets for Monoploy money::   Where's the line for
Resnick franchises? ;)
  

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Apr 30 21:40:50 1995
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Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 11:43:43 +1000 (EST)
From: Catherine A Murdoch <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Alice's World
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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The author of the book "Alice's world" is (probably) Sam J. Lundwall.  I 
haven't read the book, that's why I say probably.  I checked it out on a 
national database.

--                                                                       --
Catherine Murdoch                  | Internet: [log in to unmask]
Auchmuty Library                   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 217147
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833

"If man could be crossed with a cat, it would improve man, but it would 
 deteriorate the cat."  -  Mark Twain


From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Sun Apr 30 22:55:19 1995
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Date:         Sun, 30 Apr 95 22:48:02 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: SF-LIT digest 80
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Sun, 30 Apr 1995 20:28:35 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

George, I'm glad to hear that some of us still have our Frodo on the
shelf and haven't gone off to Wall Street to pay for the Mercedes by
sending other people's jobs to strange places where children work in
the dark all day.

I've cut my hair and gained a few pounds, but I teach writing in an
urban university and putter around on my books.  As I've aged, though,
I have made one luxury compromise with myself--Nike Airs.  I can walk
for miles in them, and in the winter, it's like wearing snow tires.
Since my feet are my main form of transportation, you could say that
I indulge in fancy tires!

Funny, isn't it, though, how a book that some people see nothing in can
inspire other people to devote their lives to some goal, or give other
people a sense of comfort and support when they need it most.  And like
I said, I'm not surprised at all that young folks in the XUSSR are finding
same things in the RINGS.  But, boy, would I like to be able to write something
with that kind of an effect on the world!

Camille

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 02:21:46 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Stephanie Hall: ling...

Stephanie you said:
>The talk of sf and anthro reminded me of a short story I once read.  It 
>gave a nice layman's explaination of why you can't just walk up to an alien 
>and strike up a conversaton - nicely embedded in the story.  But I can't 
>remember the author or title.  

The Story you are looking for is "Omnilingual" by H. Beam Piper.
It occurred on Mars and the periodic table was the key.

It was anthologized a number of times. The book that came to
hand was FEDERATION By H. Beam Piper, Ace Books 1981. The
anthology failed to provide original publication info.

Gary
Gary L. Swaty


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 04:59:45 1995
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	id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 01 May 95 10:02:27 UTC
From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Enemy Mine
Date: Mon, 01 May 95 09:58:00 UTC
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Encoding: 8 TEXT
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Barry B. Longyear, that's the guy.  Thanks GAE.
I do recall the mine and wondered at the time what it was there for.  Those 
anecdotes about the movie were great; I love that sort of info.  One thing I 
remember cringing at in the movie was the outrageous product placement of a 
futuristic coke can on the trash heap near the mine.

markw

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From: Sandy Moltz <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Lucius Shepard 
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Mon, 1 May 95 7:52:51 EDT
Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85]

I liked _Life during Wartime_.  I guess "liked" is the wrong term.  I found
it a compelling picture of the horrors of war, and would recommend it to the
people discussing the militarism thread.  I think it's more of a political
novel than science fiction.  Right after I'd read it, the news was full of
the disclosures about U.S. complicity with deaths in Guatemala by the 
Guatemalan military.  I immediately thought of Shepard's book.  This
book is one that will stay with you and like John Keegan's non-fiction books
on war will make you think differently about the life of a soldier.
Sandy Moltz [log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 08:17:44 1995
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Date: Mon, 01 May 1995 08:19:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Harrison, Irene R." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Andre Norton Bibliography
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Available from NESFA Press

Andre Norton: A Primary and Secondary Bibliography
Edited by Roger C. Schlobin & Irene R. Harrison

A complete bibliographic reference to Ms. Norton s fiction and non-fiction. 
 Also includes references to critical essays and scholarly works regarding 
her writings, with cover art by Barbara Tiffany-Eglinton, and a new preface 
by Ms. Norton.  Trade paperback, 92+xxvii acid-free pages, $12.50.  ISBN 
0-915368-64-1

 ------------------------
For mail-order sales please add $2 Shipping and Handling for one copy and $4 
for two or more.  Double the Shipping and Handling for foreign orders.  MA 
residents add 5% sales tax.  All prices in US Dollars.  Mail your check or 
charge to NESFA Press, PO Box 809, Framingham, MA 01701-0203 USA


From @INDST.INDSTATE.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 08:39:52 1995
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From: "EJUSERS" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Mon, 1 May 1995 07:34:14 EST
Subject:       Heinlein's "Logic of Empire"
Priority: normal
X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>

Boris Sidyuk writes that "Logic of Empire" (as translated into 
Russian) is pro-communist. Actually, the story in English is based in 
part on Major Douglas's Social Credit theories, just as is BEYOND 
THIS HORIZON, and the economics in general of the early Future 
History Series. --R.D. Mullen.

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 08:59:33 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: re: SF/Sci Fi
Date: Mon, 01 May 95 13:39:00 BST
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Encoding: 20 TEXT
X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0


>In Britian, I am told, dyed-in-the-wool
>fans may use sci-fi without any awareness of its connotations in the US,
>for example.

Hmmmm, not sure about this.  It certainly seems to me that the progression 
Science Fiction/SF > sci fi > skiffy is arranged in order of rising contempt 
or ignorance.  This doesn't mean that anyone using one term or another 
automatically gets pegged on the contempt-scale thereby, but it does mean 
that if you WANT to create a certain impression it's pretty clear which term 
to use.  The image that I get from the term "sci fi" is of a middle-aged, 
slightly bewildered person trying to join in a conversation without having 
realised that passing recognition of Star Trek is really not quite enough 
for an understanding of what SF is generally.  OK, that's a very ungenerous 
stereotype (but by no means the worst available!), and I regularly find 
myself saying "sci-fi" anyway, but in any case the point of this was to 
suggest that maybe the relative weightings of the terms are not restricted 
to the US.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 09:01:15 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: HARDWARE
Date: Mon, 01 May 95 13:39:00 BST
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Encoding: 13 TEXT
X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0


>I thought HARDWARE had FIELDS OF THE NIPHELIM music in it--gothic
>stuff, and lots of ROAD WARRIOR type blowing sand and stuff--have I
>got the wrong movie in my head for this?


That's the one - it also has the lead singer of the now defunct Fields of 
the Nephilim playing (to put it generously) the chap who collects stuff from 
said sandy place.  And Lemmy, bass player (?) of Motorhead, as the 
water-taxi driver, while we're at it.  It's not clear that there was a 
particularly good reason for this....

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 09:09:12 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Enemy Mine
Date: Mon, 01 May 95 13:52:00 BST
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Encoding: 15 TEXT
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>Quick question now.  Who wrote the short story "Enemy Mine" that was made
>into a film of the same name
>
>markw - no franchise available



Barry Longyear, wasn't it?  Part of the Manifest Destiny stuff about human 
expansion into space not necessarily going as smoothly as might be imagined, 
if I remember rightly.  Hubris'n'stuff, I seem to recall.  Too long ago, 
though.  Probably others can help rather more competently.  Couldn't do 
less....

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 
09:02:16 1995
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Date:         Mon, 01 May 95 13:57:55 BST
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject:      Re: Lucius Shepard
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Sat, 29 Apr 1995 11:26:20 -0400

I HAVE BEEN SEAarching for a copy of Lucius Shepard's Life During Wartime for a
 long time now - I work part time in a book shop when I'm not a postgrad studen
t  here in Birmingham UK and I know for a fact that it is out of print. If anyo
ne sees one in a British second hand bookshop could the contact me? I could the
n contact the shop. Or if anyone is willing to photocpy the novella (ooh hiss,
illegal) R & R which Camille Bacon-Smith mentioned and let me have a copy, then
 I would be eternally grateful. Even some bibliographical data about the novell
a would be helpful.
Jonathan Laidlow, University of Birmingham.




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From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Looking for Witches
Date: Mon, 01 May 95 14:50:00 UTC
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Encoding: 17 TEXT
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Yet another query about a long lost title.  Sorry, but you're so good at 
this.
This time the I'm after the author of a short story that appeared in a 
collection published in the mid seventies under a collective title that I am 
sure included the word "Infinity".  I think it was edited by Damon Knight, 
but that may be a poisson rouge.  My best guess at a title for the story is 
"Witches of Kars".  It involved a race of humans who could move their planet 
by use of rituals and apparant magic.  Any ideas?
You may not be interested in this, but the reason for these requests for 
help is that twenty years ago I had a box full of my favourite books 
poisoned by a spillage of paraquat and I've been trying to replace the ones 
I liked ever since.

markw

"They come at night... Mostly." - Newt.

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 09:55:28 1995
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Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 08:55:26 -0500
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X-Sender: [log in to unmask]
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Ed McKnight)
Subject: Re: The first (?) alternate history novel

>
>Can you/anybody tell me where I can find
>  Robert Schmunk's Alternative History bibliography?
>
>TIA,
>Kjell.
>
>Kjell M. Egerdal
>Internet: [log in to unmask]
>X.400   : S=egerdal;P=notis;A=telemax;C=no;
>

An up-to-date copy of the book list (in ASCII form) can be downloaded from
the Ohio State Usenet FAQ archive:

http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/sf/alt_history/top.html

A hypertext version is available from John Leavitt's SF Clearing House. Try:

http://thule.mt.cs.cmu.edu:8001/sf-clearing-house/bibliographies/alternate-h
istories/

Two other archives to try for the ASCII version are:

ftp://gandalf.rutgers.edu/pub/sfl/alternate-histories.txt

ftp://ftp.lysator.liu.se/pub/sf-texts/lists/Alternate_History_v#

The file runs over 400k!

The discussion/newsgroup is alt.history.what-if.



From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 11:09:15 1995
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Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 9:09:12 -0600 (MDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: SF vs. sci-fi

Anyone familiar with Mr. Sci-Fi?  I'm referring, of course, to Forrest J 
Ackerman.  Forry, or 4E if you prefer, has a header on his stationery that 
takes up at least half the page.  He is the creator of Famous Monsters of 
Filmland Magazine, writer, publisher, agent to the sci-fi literary 
illuminati and self-professed inventor of the term Sci-Fi.  Our collection 
includes at least four oral history tape interviews with 4E where he tells 
the story of driving down Sunset Blvd. listening to the radio and talking 
about his new Hi-Fi record player.  Then the light dawned -- Hi-Fi / Sci-Fi
.  Forry has done a lot of promoting of science fiction/fantasy/horror, as 
well as collecting an awful lot.

The feeling I have gotten from listening to the few authors of SF that I 
have gotten to meet is that sci-fi and its fans are a large group and maybe 
someday they will read, or see, something that will draw the distinction 
between the two for them.

Our local cable channel began carrying the Sci-Fi Channel last week.  They 
threw a party and invited Jack Williamson.  He even did a few spots for 
them I've heard (I don't have cable).  It will be interesting to see what 
he has to say about that experience after hearing his comments concerning 
sci-fi to his science fiction class.

After spending nearly 5 years working in the Williamson SF Library, I have 
observed that the people who come in and say Oh wow. Sci-fi! are going to 
read entirely different books than the people who say Oh wow.  Science 
fiction.

Gene

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 11:15:20 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF/Sci Fi
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 16:14:19 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Stephanie A. Hall" at Apr 29, 95 11:00:17 am
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In the last mail Stephanie A. Hall said:
> 
> On Fri, 28 Apr 1995, Signifying Nothing wrote:
> 
> > I would argue that the difference is, almost everyone knows that such 
> > slurs (e.g. "n*gger") are offensive. As this thread proves, not 
> > everyone realizes that there are those who find "sci-fi" offensive. 
> > I'm sure the person who originally started this thread didn't, and is 
> > regretting it now.
> 
> And, we should note, the person who responded did not take offense, but 
> just assumed that the user of the term was unfamiliar with the jargon.
> 
  In Britian, I am told, dyed-in-the-wool 
> fans may use sci-fi without any awareness of its connotations in the US, 

No, I think the attitude is pretty much the same, viz:

1) people who know the field well say SF
2) people who a) don't or b) want to be patronising say sci-fi
3) people in category a who want to refer to sf which DOES correspond
to what people in category b think it is, or who are referring 
ironically but more affectionately than not to the whole field 
including themselves say skiffy.

Ain't language odd? It's a wonder we ever manage to communicate
at all :-)

Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library
The University of Liverpool
051-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]





From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 11:24:35 1995
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Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 08:07:48 -0700
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: UK book dealers
To: [log in to unmask]
X-Mailer: AIR Mail 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)

I am looking for UK book dealers on line. I am attempting to find hard back 
editions for Sci Fi. Help.

Joe de Beauchamp
Seattle, Washington, USA
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 11:28:14 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Niven and militarism and politics (was supernatural animals)
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 16:27:53 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Vaillancourt Alain" at Apr 29, 95 11:32:05 am
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In the last mail Vaillancourt Alain said:
> 
> On Fri, 28 Apr 1995, Teresa J Warren wrote:
> 
> > How does a POSITIVE portrayal of the military mean it's a bad book?  
> > Haldeman's FOREVER WAR was somewhat positive, and I enjoyed it 
> > immensely.  Same goes for Heinlein's STARSHIP TROOPERS or even all of the 
> > STAR TREK series and incarnations.
> > 
> 
> It does not necessarily mean it is a bad book.
> 
> The reverse is true for _Starship_Troopers_.  Heinlein, who had been a 
> sailor but knew not a thing about being a warrior on land, intended it as 
> a pean to  the military.  Very much like Kipling (who glorified the 
> soldier and the military but also knew not of the reality of battle and 
> did not wanto know of it, so enamoured was he of its romance) 

I agree with what's said about Haldeman and Heinlein but I'd disagree
about Kipling. If you read the semi-autobiographical school story
STALKY & CO you will find a story where a politician visiting the school 
to make a speech spouts patriotic rant and is roundly hissed by the
boys who have direct experience of what it is like to lose a parent
killed in action.

And in BARRACK-ROOM BALLADS you'll find many poems from the point of
view of the average soldier which do not talk of military life as
romantic.

Kipling's point about militarism was simply that soldiers are 
frequently despised by the middle-classes until they are called
upon to defend them, when

"It's 'brave red line of heroes' when the guns begin to shoot."

So yes, Kipling was a fervent defender of the military, but because
the military defended the System under which he lived and was often
despised by hypocrites who benefited from them. I am not a supporter
of much of what Kipling believed in, but he WAS a more perceptive
writer of what the military is all about than most of his 
comtemporaries - I would certainly class him as more akin to Haldeman
than heinlein.

Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library
The University of Liverpool
051-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]

> 
> 
> 
> 


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 11:40:25 1995
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          Mon,  1 May 1995 00:58:23 +0300
To: [log in to unmask]
References: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Zoryany Shlyah SF Club
From: Boris Sidyuk <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Mon,  1 May 95 00:58:22 +0300
X-Mailer: BML [MS/DOS Beauty Mail v.1.36]
Subject: Re: moscow 2042
Lines: 18

>   Thanks for the correction, Boris.  I was actually looking at the book when
>   I wrote the message and still got it wrong.  I suppose the book is passe
>   now, but what do you think of it?  Did it read better in Russian than in
>   English?

Usually, you better read a book in the language it was written in. Then you
can see and feel all that the author targeted to bring to you. But sometimes,
translations are much better than original works. Here in the XUSSR we
can see it every day when a very good translator makes a masterpiece
of the completely stupid work. It happens rarely but happens. On my
opinion any translation is an original work, a retelling story by a
translator. I know it because I'm myself a translator.

On the other hand I had no occasion to read Moscow 2042 in English so
I have no idea about it.

Regards, Boris
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 12:26:30 1995
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Nannette Bedrosky" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization:  Creighton University
To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Mon, 1 May 1995 11:25:30 CDT
Subject:       Re: supernatural animals
Priority: normal
X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22)

How about "The Pet" by Charles L. Grant.  A horse comes alive from a 
poster that belongs to a teenage boy.  A horror story.

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 12:40:25 1995
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Date:         Mon, 1 May 95  12:43:13 EDT
From: Bob Roehm <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      UK Bookstores?
In-Reply-To:  note of 05/01/95 12:10
To: "SF & Fantasy Discussion Forum" <[log in to unmask]>


My favorite British mail order bookseller is Andy Richards at Cold Tonnage
Books. He distributes a regular quarterly catalog and packs books for mailing
very carefully. Ken Slater of Fantast (Medway) is also reliable, but I don't
know the current state of the business since his wife Joyce died recently.
Both these dealers handle new and used books, though Andy's tend to be of the
more collectible nature.

I don't have their addresses handy but can send them later. The classifieds in
Locus list several other UK dealers with which I am not familiar but perhaps
someone else here is.

Bob

Robert A. Roehm
Asst., Office of Collection Mgmt., Ekstrom Library
Univ of Louisville, Louisville KY 40292
[log in to unmask] - (502)852-8715

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 12:51:29 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Clark Ashton Smith

  I fully agree with Joe de Beauchamp concerning the wonderful quality
of Abraham Merritt's novels, and hope that reprints on most of his
works could be made available.  I have what I think is a complete
collection of his published works, consisting of reprints as well
as acid-eaten tattered originals. The Moon Pool, and Face in the Abyss,
are my two special favorites.  
  As to modern writers in the Clark Ashton Smith mode - I suggest the
fantasy of Tanith Lee. She has a most lyrical quality of language and
mood.      
 
Dee Sackett
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 12:59:56 1995
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Organization: Zoryany Shlyah SF Club
From: Boris Sidyuk <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Mon,  1 May 95 19:50:17 +0300
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Subject: Re: Enemy Mine
Lines: 7

>   MarkW: Enemy Mine was by Barry B. Longyear.  A neat story about the movie:

Oh, shame on me, of course Barry Longyer. Lloyd Biggle wrote MONUMENT.
I did read both in one collection. Sorry for my confusion. Thanx, George.

Regards, Boris
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 14:50:08 1995
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Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 13:45:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: Karen Warton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Chickens on the moon?
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Paul and Katie, 

The book you are thinking of is _The Wonderful Flight to the Mushroom
Planet_ by Eleanor Cameron.  There were, I believe, five books in the
series.

Two boys build a rocket and fly to Basidium, the mushroom planet, and
discover that its inhabitants are suffering from sulphur deficiency.  They
leave behind their hen (her eggs restore the inhabitants to a healthy
shade of green).

These are probably out of print now, but I read the first book as a
toddler, and a few years ago sought out the rest of the series at the
public library (Juvenile Fiction) and read them, too.  They are not as
good, of course, but can be interesting.


Regards,

Karen Warton
Assistant Cataloger, Special Collections
DeGolyer Library
Southern Methodist University, Dallas


"Woe be to him that reads but one book."--George Herbert, 1651




From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 14:52:43 1995
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From: Karen Warton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: shelf space
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In every library I've worked at, and every bookstore I've visited, the A-C
authors clearly dominate.  But what about L. Ron Hubbard's stuff?  There
are about a dozen volumes and, in hardback, they are huge.  One library I
worked at received a complaint that our collection of Hubbard SF (which,
with 2 copies of each volume, took up a couple of shelves) constituted an
advertisement for Scientology.


Karen Warton
Assistant Cataloger, Special Collections
DeGolyer Library
Southern Methodist University, Dallas

From cstu  Tue May  2 13:10:14 1995
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From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Karen Warton Militarism, etc.
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Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 13:52:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: Karen Warton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Militarism, etc.


While I have no problem with _Star Trek_ despite its military organization
(especially since, in its later forms, it reinforces alternatives to
violence as a solution), I agree with Rick's antimilitary stance. 
Portraying violence for entertainment's sake is not just repulsive; it's
immoral in the sense that it denies the reality of violence and encourages
lazy attitudes toward what violence is and whether it is a useful tool.  I
am tired of hearing that a film or book is extremely violent, but "in a
humorous way," or that it is somehow redeemable because the good guys win. 

The consequences of violence, and the belief that it accomplishes anything,
are all around us.  I have not read Niven, but (e.g.) Tom Clancy's attitude
of "Gee whiz, isn't this neat? And isn't it great that =our government= has
this ability?" is very disturbing.  


Karen Warton
Assistant Cataloger, Special Collections
DeGolyer Library
Southern Methodist University, Dallas





From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 17:14:43 1995
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Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 17:14:43 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Niven and militarism and ...

 Alain Vaillancourt really tore into militarism in Star Trek, and being a
trekker I took minor offense.
 When reading or watching Star Trek you have to realize that Starfleet is a
military organization in an overwhlmingly civilian setting. The duties of the
crew don't allow them to interact with the civilian populace as often as even
I'd like.
 Such issues are the norm today. Look at deep sea exploration, who dominates
? The military- only they have the resources to establish themselves. Yes I
know about the very notable explotatin of civilian scientist, but the
military has the hardware they often need to make the next leap. This will
always be the case. Look at flight, civilian pioneered and now military
dominated. Only recently ahs flight opened up to the common person. It will
be the same with space. Civilians will go there first, the military will then
dominate the field for a while then civilians will move right back in, after
the miltary has done a good amount of research that radically advances the
field.
 In the Star Trek setting civilian space involvement is at about the same
stage that civilian air involvement is now. Passenger liners whisking people
off to exotic destinations for vacation and for migrating around and
colonizing. Very few have their own " personal shuttlecraft" or transporters
and that sort of thing is far off.
 Now that I've wasted some internet space, let me get to my point. Trek is,
like any mass market media, compromised by the need for conflict. The writers
have to include action regularly and plausibly, otherwise there will be no
audience. As it is huge numbers of people tell me they find Trek too "heady."

 Well I'm starting to rant and babble (some will accuse me of having done
this to begin with) so I'll go back to observing. For now.

Alexander
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 17:30:24 1995
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Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 14:13:34 -0700
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Mike Resnick
To: [log in to unmask]
X-Mailer: AIR Mail 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)

Mr. Resnick,

I have bought my first book of yours. I choose to purchase Ivory. After I 
complete this book, I might collect all of your books in hard back. Are all of 
your books in hard back? I have done this with J.G.Ballard and B.Aldiss of 
their full collections. Will you provide me with an incentive? If I collect 
all your books in hard back for my library, will you sign all of them? Well, 
so, as you probably guessed, I am a business man. Us finance guys think that 
way. I am sure that I will enjoy the book and 'am looking forward to dialog 
regarding them.


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 19:28:38 1995
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Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 16:11:47 -0700
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Lucius Shepard 
To: [log in to unmask], Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
X-Mailer: AIR Mail 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)

Anyone know of booksellers in UK?

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 19:31:42 1995
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Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 18:31:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Heinlein's "Logic of Empire"
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Also, the story in the great FUTURE HISTORY series/anthology is more than 
offset (in terms of any suspect commie tendencies!) by "If This Goes On," 
a nice story which is hauntingly prophetic of the fundamentalist/rightist 
movements in the world, and why they threaten free speech/thought/press.


Gary L. Warren


On Mon, 1 May 1995, EJUSERS wrote:

> Boris Sidyuk writes that "Logic of Empire" (as translated into 
> Russian) is pro-communist. Actually, the story in English is based in 
> part on Major Douglas's Social Credit theories, just as is BEYOND 
> THIS HORIZON, and the economics in general of the early Future 
> History Series. --R.D. Mullen.
> 
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 19:35:38 1995
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From: Daniel S Goodman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Beggers vs Mutants?
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Fri, 28 Apr 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Robert Silverberg's wife Karen Haber wrote a series of novels _The Mutant
> Season_, _The Mutant Prime_, and _The Mutant Star_ in '89, '90, and '92 that
> closely resemble Kress's _Beggars in Spain_ ('91).  Has anyone else  been
> bothered by the similarities in these books?

What similarities?  How much 1940's thru 1950's sf have you read?  A 
whole lot of stuff roughly similar to Beggars in Spain was written then.  

Dan Goodman [log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 19:37:15 1995
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From: Daniel S Goodman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: I made a sale!
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Fri, 28 Apr 1995, Marina Frants wrote:

> 
> No doubt all the famous guys on the list will find this really ho-hum,
> but I'm just fit to burst because I made my second fiction sale!  It's
> a short story entitled "Agatha V", and it will appear in _Blood Muse_,
> an anthology of vampire stories edited my Esther M. Friesner.  This
> sorta makes me feel that my first sale wasn't a fluke, that I'm a
> "real" writer.  Though knowing me, I doubt the feeling will last...
> anyway, I just wanted to brag.
> 
Congratulations!

Dan Goodman [log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 20:22:59 1995
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Date: Mon, 01 May 1995 18:22:45 -0600 (MDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: militarism in SF
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Note: Mail transport via Digital Equipment of Canada Ltd. Calgary gateway.


Alain V. makes some excellent points in his recent communication:  his
last idea is expecially worthy of comment:  military SF (and the current
enthusiasm for it) is simply a sign that as social animals we haven't
grown up much in the last 20 years (or perhaps the U.S. and its overall
foreign policy hasn't).  Much SF is, of course, simply a mirror for
current trends and assumptions:  that we might see future space
exploration as galactic conquest carried out by the military is (and
I'm sure this goes almost without saying) an extension of an imper-
ialist attitude that sees humanity or a select group of humanity as
galactic (or world) policemen.  This is pretty much an American
obsession that reflects a lot of implicit assumptions about the
indispensibility of the U.S. in setting right world events and
history generally; I'm not sure it's shared with equal enthusiasm by
non-U.S.n's.  It certainly suggests that the lessons of Vietnam
weren't learned very thoroughly (which brings us to Camille's thread,
which I'll comment on in another missive).

I'm also intrigued by Alain's mention of the Haldeman paradox:  since
I knew a good deal about Haldeman's bio, esp. his experiences in the
VN war, I recognized that much of _The Forever War_ was intended as
satire.  And some of the eccentricities such as the "Fuck you, Sir!" as
standard military language or the cycling into and out of vogue of
homosexuality are, it seems to me, dead giveaways that the book is not
to be taken straight.  But I can understand how some readers unused to
the delights of irony might read the novel as pure punch-up.  Well, the
same thing happened the good Dean Swift and his "Modest Proposal":
quite a few members of the parliament of the day thought the maybe
eating Irish babies wasn't such a bad idea at all, given the problems
of over-population and undersupply of food stuffs.

rick

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 20:46:51 1995
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Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 20:46:51 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: supernatural animals 

Dwain Camps wrote:
>What about Jack the Ripper that has stalked literature ... Is he a super-
>natural monster (ref: "City on the Edge of Forever" by Harlan Ellison
>and appearing in _Dangerous Visions_)?

 The Jack the Ripper creature, did not appear in "City on the Edge of
Forever" it appeared in Robert Bloch's "Wolf in the Fold" in Original Treks
Second season.
 Since you mention Trek though:
 Apollo in "Who Mourns for Adonais?" Second Season
 The Cloud creature in "Obsession" Second Season
 The huge cell in "The Immunity Sydrome" Second Season
 "God" in Star Trek V
 The fear/hate feeding creature in "Day of the Dove" Third Season
 I could list them all but these are the ones that stick out in my mind. (
Some only because they were so BAD. )
 Enought Trek though.
 Do the Paratwa in Christopher Hinz's "Liege Killer" qualify ? They are man
made but their psyche seems mostrous. An opponent that can actually be in two
places at once seems fearsome to me.
 Although ti strays from SF Anne Rice's Portrayal of Ramses in "The Mummy"
was pretty intersting, I thought she could have done more with it though.
 I also vaguely remember a creature that was somehow able to swallow anything
that came at it as well as wreaking havoc on peoples time sense, specifically
their linear view of events. Anyone got a title/author for me ? I just can't
remember, I read it when I was a kid.
 

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  1 21:06:00 1995
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Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 21:05:59 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Alternate media

Stephanie A. Hall wrote

>Well, here is an alternate form that we have the technology for, and 
>could happen, but so far hasn't -- long unserialed video (or whatever 
>moving image of the future).  We have vcrs after all, we can turn them 
>off and on whenever we like.  Long moving image works -- longer than 
>movie theatres or tv programming limitaions allow -- have been a 
>possibility since vcrs came into popular use.  

 I think this is a fascinating Idea. I bet your right about the marketing
aspect. It might be worth it to find out how big a niche market we have here,
someone may actually be interested.
 Another medium I'm excited about is computers. We've all seen the games that
are coming out now on CD, some of them are very immersive and tell quite a
story. Perhaps in the future a story line could be included in these games
that comes to a conclusion, something we could just watch. Maybe then we
could jump in and change the story when we see something we don't like, and
maybe we could just run the whole thing ourselves lik now. When Virtual
Reality becomes more widely available along with Motion Picture Compression,
this could get very interesting.
 I also wanna pick your brains- I just heard that there is a William Gibson
book being released as a movie, does anyone know which one and was the book
any good ?

From shal  Mon May  1 22:22:07 1995
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From: "Stephanie A. Hall" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: re: SF/Sci Fi
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Mon, 1 May 1995, D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple wrote:

> 
> >In Britian, I am told, dyed-in-the-wool
> >fans may use sci-fi without any awareness of its connotations in the US,
> >for example.
> 
> Hmmmm, not sure about this.  It certainly seems to me that the progression 
> Science Fiction/SF > sci fi > skiffy is arranged in order of rising contempt 
> or ignorance.  

I have had only  one British fan tell me this (and now one says it isn't 
so) - so am not sure about it either - we need a larger sample. But at 
least it seems possible that "sci-fi" has traveled outside the US without 
necessarily carrying with it the connotations it has in the US -- and give 
folks the benefit of the doubt. I am curious as to how international 
fannish jargon has become, given World Cons and other international 
events, networking, and the fact that fannish speak has crept into the 
international jargon of computer folk.

Stephanie

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist           The Library of Congress
American Folklife Center               preserves and houses
Library of Congress                    countless ideas and opinions.
Washington, DC 20540-8100              Those expressed here 
[log in to unmask]                           are my own.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 02:05:46 1995
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Date: 02 May 95 02:02:55 EDT
From: Jeff Lemkin <[log in to unmask]>
To: LOC sf discussion <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Bob Shaw's Orbitsville
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>


Fran Skene notes

I'm very fond of Bob Shaw - I spent time drinking with him at a couple of
Eastercons and I think his Serious Scientific speeches are hilarious - but
I read Orbitsville when it first came out and was turned off by his
depiction of women in this novel:  evil or stupid.  No other choices. For
me, the Wonder of his Dyson sphere was overshadowed by the
characterization. 

Now, this was a while ago and many writers are more aware now of such 
issues, probably Bob as well.

Cheers,   Fran

>>That was written in the mid-70s. More recently (early 90s), he's written a
series which I found more engaging than Orbitsville (perhaps because of the
stronger m/f character balance). The titles are: _The Fugitive Worlds_, _The
Ragged Astronauts_, _The Wooden Spaceships_. 

For cool and unusually depicted female characters, M. Coleman Eastman's _Masters
of Glass_ and _The Fisherman's Curse_ , are both superb, as well as being great
reads. M. Coleman Eastman, (who I believe is a man), effortlessly (well, it
*seemed* effortless) creates fully realized female characters. There was
*something* undefinable about _Masters of Glass_ which made me think "I have
never read anything quite like this before".

Ok, Ok, it was a quest, with the young apprentice marching forth to meet and
conquer great evil, growing and learning on the way,but still. . . .

	-Cheers!

	-Jeff


From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 02:52:44 1995
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From: [log in to unmask] (Truls Arnegaard)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Niven and politics
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
References: <[log in to unmask]>

[log in to unmask] writes:
 > May I also suggest for liberal kudos a writer whose name I believe has
 > not yet appeared on this list and whose stories I have not seen for
 > a few years:  Lucius Shepard.  I love his short stories...that mixture
 > of dark fantasy, sf, and political concerns, all done with vivid, lush,
 > descriptive power.  "Salvador" has to be one of the best SF stories of
 > the last 20 yrs.

Agreed! Mr. Shepard does a very good job of bringing out the `dark
fantasy' parts of politics.

 > 
 > However, as with KSR, I was disappointed with his major novel, _Life
 > During Wartime_...it seemed interminable and ultimately without much
 > real point.
 > 

I believe _Life..._ is a fix-up of earlier material? No?

 > Any comments on Mr. Shepard?
 > 
 > Rick


-Truls

-- 
          Truls Arnegaard                       | 
Phone:    +47 67575556                          | Schlumberger Geco-Prakla
Fax:      +47 67575537                          | Jongsaasvn 4
Internet: [log in to unmask]    | N-1300 Sandvika, NORWAY

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 04:45:54 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: UK Bookstores?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 09:45:15 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "[log in to unmask]" at May 1, 95 11:45:16 am
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In the last mail [log in to unmask] said:
> 
> To my UK friends: 
> 
> I am looking for the following books:
> 
> 	Star Maker by Stapleton
> 	The Unsleeping Eye by Compton, David Guy
> 	Villains and Heroes by Carter, Angela
> 	Arslan by Engh
> 	Vermilion Sands by Ballard, JG
> 
> I desire to find British bookstore contacts. I know that these were done in 
> hard back in the UK , and I would accept reading copies. Anyone know of a good 
> vendor in the UK? I have the paperbacks of these novels. I would like to add 
> to my library, as I believe that I shall reread them over the decades.
> 
I would recommend ANDROMEDA BOOKS, 84 Suffolk Street, Birmingham, B1 1TA, UK
(Tel 0121 643 1999 Fax 0121 643 2001) and a good second-hand dealer is Andy
Richard trading as COLD TONNAGE BOOKS, 22 Kings Lane, Windlesham, Surrey GU20 6JQ,
UK (Tel 0276 475388 Fax 0276 451367)

Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library
The University of Liverpool
051-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]

> 
> 
> 
> 


From cstu  Tue May  2 14:20:10 1995
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Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 14:20:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Truls Arnegaard: Niven and politics
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Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 08:53:13 +0200
From: [log in to unmask] (Truls Arnegaard)
Subject: Niven and politics

[log in to unmask] writes:
 > May I also suggest for liberal kudos a writer whose name I believe has
 > not yet appeared on this list and whose stories I have not seen for
 > a few years:  Lucius Shepard.  I love his short stories...that mixture
 > of dark fantasy, sf, and political concerns, all done with vivid, lush,
 > descriptive power.  "Salvador" has to be one of the best SF stories of
 > the last 20 yrs.

Agreed! Mr. Shepard does a very good job of bringing out the `dark
fantasy' parts of politics.

 > 
 > However, as with KSR, I was disappointed with his major novel, _Life
 > During Wartime_...it seemed interminable and ultimately without much
 > real point.
 > 

I believe _Life..._ is a fix-up of earlier material? No?

 > Any comments on Mr. Shepard?
 > 
 > Rick


-Truls

-- 
          Truls Arnegaard                       | 
Phone:    +47 67575556                          | Schlumberger Geco-Prakla
Fax:      +47 67575537                          | Jongsaasvn 4
Internet: [log in to unmask]    | N-1300 Sandvika, NORWAY


From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 07:43:20 1995
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Date: Tue, 02 May 1995 07:45:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Harrison, Irene R." <[log in to unmask]>
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To: 'sf-lit' <[log in to unmask]>
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It was suggested that members of this discussion list might like to know 
about the new edition of the  Andre Norton Bibliography.
 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Available from NESFA Press

Andre Norton: A Primary and Secondary Bibliography
Edited by Roger C. Schlobin & Irene R. Harrison

A complete bibliographic reference to Ms. Norton s fiction and non-fiction. 
 Also includes references to critical essays and scholarly works regarding 
her writings, with cover art by Barbara Tiffany-Eglinton, and a new preface 
by Ms. Norton.  Trade paperback, 92+xxvii acid-free pages, $12.50.  ISBN 
0-915368-64-1
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

For mail-order sales please add $2 Shipping and Handling for one copy and $4 
for two or more.  Double the Shipping and Handling for foreign orders.  MA 
residents add 5% sales tax.  All prices in US Dollars.  Mail your check or 
charge to NESFA Press, PO Box 809, Framingham, MA 01701-0203 USA
 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 08:06:43 1995
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From: Ruth Ballam <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Plymouth
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 11:11:39 GMT
Subject: re: SF/Sci Fi
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
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>
>>In Britian, I am told, dyed-in-the-wool
>>fans may use sci-fi without any awareness of its connotations in the US,
>>for example.
>
>It certainly seems to me that the progression 
>Science Fiction/SF > sci fi > skiffy is arranged in order of rising contempt 
>or ignorance.  This doesn't mean that anyone using one term or another 
>automatically gets pegged on the contempt-scale thereby, but it does mean 
>that if you WANT to create a certain impression it's pretty clear which term 
>to use.  

Well until this thread started I hadn't even heard the term skiffy. 
I tend to write SF (after all it's quicker) and say sci fi.
I read and watch SF rather than talk about it a great deal so maybe I've missed 
out on what's the *in* term.  

As for wanting to "create a certain impression" ? 
Perish the thought !   :-)

Ruth


-------------------------------------------
[log in to unmask]
Ruth Ballam,
Computing Service,
University of Plymouth,
-------------------------------------------

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 12:50:28 1995
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From: Dorothy Solbrig <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for Witches
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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The version I know is not a short story but a whole book called THE 
WITCHES OF KARRES by James H. Schmitz (1966).  It's a lot of fun.  I 
don't have it here so I can't check copyrights to see if it mentions 
earlier publications in parts.


Dorothy Solbrig					[log in to unmask]
Bio Labs Library, Harvard University		(617) 495-3944

On Tue, 2 May 1995, Mark Woolrich wrote:

> 
> Yet another query about a long lost title.  Sorry, but you're so good at 
> this.
> This time the I'm after the author of a short story that appeared in a 
> collection published in the mid seventies under a collective title that I am 
> sure included the word "Infinity".  I think it was edited by Damon Knight, 
> but that may be a poisson rouge.  My best guess at a title for the story is 
> "Witches of Kars".  It involved a race of humans who could move their planet 
> by use of rituals and apparant magic.  Any ideas?
> You may not be interested in this, but the reason for these requests for 
> help is that twenty years ago I had a box full of my favourite books 
> poisoned by a spillage of paraquat and I've been trying to replace the ones 
> I liked ever since.
> 
> markw
> 
> "They come at night... Mostly." - Newt.
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 13:21:09 1995
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   Tue, 02 May 95 13:20:54 EDT
Date: Tue, 2 May 95 13:19:58 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Enemy Mine

In case anyone is interested, Mr. Longyear also wrote a very informative
book on writing SF called, I believe, "The Science Fiction Workshop"
which had some very interesting insights into how he wrote "Enemy Mine",
as well as some of his other works.
I thought this might interest other writer-wanna-bes out there.

     Later,

Robert D. Bair
IBM Charlotte     RDBAIR at CLTVM1
CSP Test Engineering Support
[log in to unmask]
AR: WB3AHC, 1st Class FCC: P1-3-17298, Tripoli: #2253, NAR: #60163

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 13:22:36 1995
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Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 10:22:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Carlsbad City Library <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for Witches
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Hi, Mark.  You're looking for "Witches of Karres" by James H. Schmitz.  I 
believe the short story you remember is the first section of a book by 
the same name.  Captain Pausert rescues three young girls on a planet and 
finds they are members of the infamous Witches of Karres.  (Two of them 
are Goth and the Leewit, the third one's name escapes me at the moment.)  
I haven't read the book for years, but I remember it as being very funny.

--Chris Pickavet
Head of Technical Services
Carlsbad City Library
Carlsbad, CA 92008
[log in to unmask]

On Tue, 2 May 1995, Mark Woolrich wrote:

> (text deleted)
> 
> This time the I'm after the author of a short story that appeared in a 
> collection published in the mid seventies under a collective title that I am 
> sure included the word "Infinity".  I think it was edited by Damon Knight, 
> but that may be a poisson rouge.  My best guess at a title for the story is 
> "Witches of Kars".  It involved a race of humans who could move their planet 
> by use of rituals and apparant magic.  

(more text deleted)
> 
> markw

> 

From cstu  Tue May  2 21:11:36 1995
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Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 21:11:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Mike Resnick: 1995 Hugo Ballot
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: 1995 Hugo Ballot

 1995 Hugo Award nominations

 Best Novel
 MOTHER OF STORMS by John Barnes (Tor)
 BRITTLE INNINGS by Michael Bishop (Bantam)
 MIRROR DANCE by Lois McMaster Bujold (Baen)
 BEGGARS AND CHOOSERS by Nancy Kress (Tor)
 TOWING JEHOVAH by James Morrow (Harcourt Brace)

 Best Novella
 "Cri de Coeur" by Michael Bishop (Asimov's)
 "Melodies of the Heart" by Michael J. Flynn (Analog)
 "Forgiveness Day" by Ursula K. Le Guin (Asimov's)
 "Seven Views of Olduvai Gorge" by Mike Resnick (F&SF)
 "Les Fleurs Du Mal" by Brian Stableford (Asimov's)

 Best Novelette
 "Cocoon" by Greg Egan (Asimov's)
 "The Martian Child" by David Gerrold (F&SF)
 "The Singular Habits of Wasps" by Geoffrey A. Landis (Analog)
 "The Matter of Seggri" by Ursula K. Le Guin (Crank!)
 "A Little Knowledge" by Mike Resnick (Asimov's)

 Best Short Story
 "Mrs. Lincoln's China" by M. Shayne Bell (Asimov's)
 "Dead Man's Curve" by Terry Bisson (Asimov's)
 "None So Blind" by Joe Haldeman (Asimov's)
 "Understanding Entropy" by Barry N. Malzberg (SF Age)
 "Barnaby in Exile" by Mike Resnick (Asimov's)
 "I Know What You're Thinking" by Kate Wilhelm (Asimov's)

 Best Non-fiction Book
 I. ASIMOV: A MEMOIR by Isaac Asimov (Doubleday)
 SPECTRUM: THE BEST IN CONTEMPORARY FANTASTIC ART by Cathy Burnett
    & Arnie Fenner (Underwood Books)
 SILENT INTERVIEWS: ON LANGUAGE, RACE, SEX, SCIENCE FICTION, AND SOME
    COMICS by Samuel R. Delany (Wesleyan University Press)
 MAKING BOOK by Teresa Nielsen Hayden (NESFA Press)
 THE BOOK ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER by Christopher Priest (Fantagraphics)

 Best Dramatic Presentation
 "All Good Things" (STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION)
 INTERVIEW WITH THE VAMPIRE
 THE MASK
 STARGATE
 STAR TREK: GENERATIONS

 Best Professional Editor
 Ellen Datlow
 Gardner Dozois
 Mike Resnick
 Kristine Kathryn Rusch
 Stanley Schmidt

 Best Professional Artist
 Ian Burns
 Thomas Canty
 Bob Eggleton
 Don Maitz
 Michael Whelan

 Best Professional Artwork
 LADY COTTINGTON'S PRESSED FAIRY BOOK by Brian Froud & Terry Jones
    (Pavilion UK)
 Cover for GUN, WITH OCCASIONAL MUSIC by Jonathan Lethem, by Michael
    Koelsch (Harcourt, Brace/NEL UK)
 Cover for FOREIGNER by C. J. Cherryh, by Michael Whelan (DAW/Legend UK)

 Best Semiprozine
 INTERZONE edited by David Pringle
 LOCUS edited by Charles N. Brown
 THE NEW YORK REVIEW OF SCIENCE FICTION edited by David G. Hartwell,
    Donald G. Keller, Robert K. J. Killheffer & Gordon Van Gelder
 SCIENCE FICTION CHRONICLE edited by Andrew I. Porter
 TOMORROW SPECULATIVE FICTION edited by Algis Budrys

 Best Fanzine
 ANSIBLE edited by Dave Langford
 FILE 770 edited by Mike Glyer
 HABAKKUK edited by Bill Donaho
 LAN'S LANTERN edited by George Laskowski
 MIMOSA edited by Dick & Nicki Lynch

 Best Fan Writer
 Sharon Farber
 Mike Glyer
 Andy Hooper
 Dave Langford
 Evelyn C. Leeper

 Best Fan Artist
 Brad W. Foster
 Teddy Harvia
 Linda Michaels
 Peggy Ranson
 Bill Rotsler

 John W. Campbell Award for Best New Writer
 Linda Dunn (2nd year of eligibility)
 David Fentuch (1st year of eligibility)
 Daniel Marcus (2nd year of eligibility)
 Jeff Noon (2nd year of eligibility)
 Felicity Savage (1st year of eleigibility)
 ------------


[From the press release distributed by Intersection, the 53rd 
World Science Fiction Convention, dated 1st May 1995:] 

Attached are a list of the nominees for the 1995 Hugo Awards and 
John W. Campbell Awards. 

The nominees were chosen by popular vote by 477 members of 
Intersection or ConAdian who submitted valid nominating ballots.  
In some categories more than 5 nominations appear due to tie 
votes.  In the "Original Artwork" category only 3 nominations 
appear, as no other candidates appeared on more than 5% of the 
ballots cast in that category, as required by the WSFS 
constitution.  The Hugo Subcommittee of Intersection decided to 
cancel the Best Music category due to a marked lack of interest 
that category: only one nominated item received more than 7 
nominations.  LADY COTTINGTON'S PRESSED FAIRY BOOK received votes 
in both the categories of Best Non-Fiction Book and Best Original 
Artwork; we have decided to assign it to Best Original Artwork. 


                               --Mike & Debby Moir
                                 Hugo Awards Administrators



From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 13:52:48 1995
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Date: Tue, 02 May 1995 13:52:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Looking for Witches
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Are you referring to THE WITCHES OF KARRES, by James Schmitz?

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 14:02:46 1995
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Date: Tue, 02 May 1995 14:02:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Mike Resnick
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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I just walked over to the shelf and checked. 23 of my sf books are
available in hardcover (or once were), which means that 49 of them, including
anthologies I've edited and suchlike, are not.

Yeah, people send copies of my books almost every day for autographs. Just
be sure to send a SASE that can hold them. Or try to catch me during an
autograph session at a convention or a bookstore.

-- Mike Resnick


From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 14:04:02 1995
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Date: Tue, 02 May 1995 14:03:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: I made a sale!
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Hey -- there's nothing "hu-hum" about making a sale, whether it's your
first, your second, or your three hundredth. Congratulations!

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 14:16:58 1995
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Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 10:59:58 -0700
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: UK Bookstores?
To: [log in to unmask]
X-Mailer: AIR Mail 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)

Thank you for the lead on British Bookstores.

Joe de Beauchamp
Seattke, Wa.
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 14:26:49 1995
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From: [log in to unmask] (R. Thompson)
Subject: Re: militarism in SF
X-Mailer: <PC Eudora Version 1.4>

>
>Alain V. makes some excellent points in his recent communication:  his
>last idea is expecially worthy of comment:  military SF (and the current
>enthusiasm for it) is simply a sign that as social animals we haven't
>grown up much in the last 20 years (or perhaps the U.S. and its overall
>foreign policy hasn't).  

The trend in Saturday moring cartooning especially bothers me.  I don't like 
the message we are sending children at ever younger ages, where this is a 
reflection of teen/adult tastes or a new creation for kids minds.

Bob

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 15:25:36 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Looking for Witches

what you are looking for is the "Witches of Karres" by my favorite
author James Schmitz.  I haven't read the entire story but I'm Sure this 
is the one you're looking for

Patty Silva
[log in to unmask]
8-)

From @INDST.INDSTATE.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 15:47:59 1995
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From: "EJUSERS" <[log in to unmask]>
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Date:          Tue, 2 May 1995 14:44:13 EST
Subject:       WITCHES OF KARES
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This story is by James H. Schmitz. --RDM

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 15:48:54 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Kipling
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I agree with Andy Sawyer's assessment of Kipling, and would go further
to suggest that his attitude is not just ironic but occasionally down-
right ambiguous.  Although he has several proto-SF short stories, the
one that deals most explicitly with militarism and oppression of the
underdog by a violent elite is "As Easy As ABC".  But I must confess
that I am bewildered as to how to read the center of gravity of this
story -- for me, it is a confusing and confusingly ambiguous work.  Of
the two contending sides in the conflict, which one has K's sympathies?
Any thoughts on this?

rick

From cstu  Tue May  2 21:45:11 1995
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Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 21:45:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Answers to questions: a question
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I have noticed that when a book is asked to be identified, we get a great 
response, but often we get several messages with the same information 
over a span of time.  I know that part of this is because of the list 
being moderatored; when you answered, the earlier answer had not appeared 
yet.  How would members feel if I was to "moderate" the list so that when 
the same answer, with no new information comes in again, I will not 
forward that to the list.  It is up to the members on this one, but I 
know some people have too full mailboxes right now.  Please send replies 
to me at [log in to unmask] and thanks.
Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]




From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 15:49:23 1995
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From: "Harold L. Drake" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: SF vs Sci-Fi
To: [log in to unmask]
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	I'm responding to Andy Sawyer and comments by others.
	I remember back in the early 1970's I was at one of George 
Price's (publisher Advent Books) Friday night parties on Chicago's 
Northside and knew next to nothing about SF.  George corrected me and 
said something like: "...Don't ever use the term Sci-Fi. Sci-Fi is used 
only by those who are unfamiliar with the field.  Use the term SF...."
	I am in debt to George Price for another reason.  It was at the 
same above party...or, another one...when George asked me if I was 
familiar with an SF author who had written two general semantics novels.
George had been informed that my master's thesis and my doctoral 
dissertation involved aspects of general semantics.  I told George that I 
was not an SF reader...couldn't stand the stuff, actually...and that's 
when he told me about A. E. van Vogt and <The World of A) and (The 
Players of A)--as all of you know, the "A" in each title as originally 
published has the bar on top.  
	Because of George Price... but not planned by me...I have spent 
over 20 years reading, researching, delivering convention papers and 
doing some modest publishing regarding A. E. van Vogt and general 
semantics.  I am currently under contract doing a van Vogt book.  
	Now, SF is the only fiction that I read...that I can stand to read!
I regret that I came to SF in my later years instead of growing up with 
it.  I think that I would have been <smarter> if I had been exposed to a 
steady diet of SF!	
	While I have followed George's advice about "SF vs. Sci-Fi"...I really 
haven't let the term "Sci-Fi" bother me.  Here's why.
		a. I can tolerate a certain amount of honest ignorance,
		   if a person uses the term "Sci-Fi" and they mean no
		   harm.
		b. I can tolerate someone who knows better, using the term
		   "Sci-Fi" in an affectionate manner (perhaps accompanied
		   by a smile and a wink).
		c. I am amused when talking with 4E Ackerman to hear him
		   use the term "Sci-Fi" <because, I think if anyone has
		   a right to do so, it is he>.  Somewhere recently...I've
		   forgotten where...I read that 4E is the <inventor> of the
		   term "Sci-Fi".  I don't care if he is or isn't.  I still
		   like to hear 4E's voice saying, "...Sciiiii-Fiiiii."
		d. <I> use the term "Sci-Fi" in a pejorative term when I
		   by accident rent or channel-flip on to a <bad, "B-or-C-
		   grade" SF movie--(ala Wood).
		e. Does it really matter?
	Regards to all,
	H. Drake

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 15:51:15 1995
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Date: Tue, 02 May 1995 13:51:05 -0600 (MDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: New Gibson film
To: [log in to unmask]
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One of our list readers asked about the new film that is rumoured to be
appearing soon which is a rendering of a Gibson story.  I believe the
film and original story have the same name, "Johnny Mnemonic".  I've read
a couple of reviews of the film in production and it sounds like an
excellent Cyberpunk vision a la "Bladerunner" and "Tek Wars".  Due out,
I believe, in July.

rick


From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 16:03:16 1995
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Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 15:03:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: From Karen Warton Militarism, etc.
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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While I've been EXTREMELY anti-military (esp. during my teenage and 
20-ish years), I've had to come to the conclusion that militarism is an 
unfortunate fact of life.  And, as WWII and to a much lesser extent 
Desert Storm have shown us, the military forces are sometimes necessary 
to save other lives and to insure (for the protagonist nation) a certain 
quality of life.  That's the message I got out of FOREVER WAR and most of 
Heinlein's PAST THROUGH TOMORROW (aka Future History) anthology.

And, please let's face it:  Hitler's Nazi's and Stalin's Red Army weren't 
going to stop exterminating Jews and other political prisoners if 
forceful military AND diplomatic pressures weren't brought to bear.  
Pacifism is useful ONLY if the other guy stops shooting.


Gary L. Warren
(*not* my wife Teresa!)
:D


On Tue, 2 May 1995, Colleen Stumbaugh wrote:

> Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 13:52:37 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Karen Warton <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Militarism, etc.
> 
> 
> While I have no problem with _Star Trek_ despite its military organization
> (especially since, in its later forms, it reinforces alternatives to
> violence as a solution), I agree with Rick's antimilitary stance. 
> Portraying violence for entertainment's sake is not just repulsive; it's
> immoral in the sense that it denies the reality of violence and encourages
> lazy attitudes toward what violence is and whether it is a useful tool.  I
> am tired of hearing that a film or book is extremely violent, but "in a
> humorous way," or that it is somehow redeemable because the good guys win. 
> 
> The consequences of violence, and the belief that it accomplishes anything,
> are all around us.  I have not read Niven, but (e.g.) Tom Clancy's attitude
> of "Gee whiz, isn't this neat? And isn't it great that =our government= has
> this ability?" is very disturbing.  
> 
> 
> Karen Warton
> Assistant Cataloger, Special Collections
> DeGolyer Library
> Southern Methodist University, Dallas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 16:15:58 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
Apparently-To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re : Looking for Witches

    Relying on my memory (I am at work) I believe the title is "Witches
of Karres" by James H. Schmidt.  An excellent book and one of my favorites.
I am very sorry that there is (to my knowledge) no sequel.
    Susan Mozzicato


From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 16:54:38 1995
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 2 May 1995 16:43:37 EST
Date: Tue, 02 May 1995 16:43:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Signifying Nothing <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Shelf Space
To: [log in to unmask]
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In my considerable experience of scifi [sic] sections in bookstores, 
the letters that seem to take up the most space are A (Asimov, 
Anthony, Adams, Aldiss), H (Heinlein, Harry Harrison, Hambly, etc.), 
L-M-N (LeGuin, Lackey, May, McCaffrey, Norton), S (largely due to Star 
Trek, which is beginning to become its own category in some shops) and 
W (Williams, Connie Willis, Wilson, etc). But from working with 
student files here at the college, I'd say the most common letters for 
surnames are G, M, S and W.

FWIW
-joan
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
<D. Joan [log in to unmask]>
>Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak................<
<Whispers the o'erfraught heart and bids it break................>
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 17:06:47 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Alternate media (Gibson Movie)
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue,  2 May 95 14:00: 2 PDT
Message-Id: <9505022100.026B9C@martinw>
X-Mailer: SelectMAIL 1.2

Alexander ([log in to unmask]) wrote:

| I also wanna pick your brains- I just heard that there is a William 
|Gibson
|book being released as a movie, does anyone know which one and was the 
|book
|any good ?

The movie in question in "Johnny Mnemonic" based on the short story of 
the same name.  I recall reading the story in the Gibson short story 
collection titled Burning Chrome.  I'm not as fond of his short stories 
as I am of Gibson's longer works, but Johnny Mnemonic was one of the 
better ones.  I would describe the short story as being a 
self-contained fragment from the larger world that Gibson has created 
in his Neuromancer series.

Gibson also wrote the screenplay for the movie; I've read it, and found 
it to be an entertaining expansion/enhancement of the original short 
story.  We'll just have to see if any of Gibson's talent makes it past 
Keanu Reeves, who plays the main protagonist in the film.  From the 
preview, it looks like Mr. Reeves is reprising his role from Speed, 
with perhaps a touch more irony.  The movie is slated to be a summer 
release.

Bonus factoid on Gibson and movies:  Gibson wrote a screenplay for the 
movie that was to be Aliens III, but it went unused.  If anyone wants 
to hear more about this, I'll be happy to discuss it.


-Martin S. Won

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 17:30:36 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
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Date: Tue,  2 May 95 20:57:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: "Modest Proposal"
X-Genie-Id: 1194444
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

RCOLLIER:
 
You mean Swift's "Modest Proposal" was meant as irony?
 
Omigod, what have I done?
 
(signed) "Going to Confession Now, Although I'm a Protestant"

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 17:30:36 1995
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Subject: "Modest Proposal"
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X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

RCOLLIER:
 
You mean Swift's "Modest Proposal" was meant as irony?
 
Omigod, what have I done?
 
(signed) "Going to Confession Now, Although I'm a Protestant"
From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 17:34:41 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
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Subject: SF-LIT digest 83
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X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

Jonathan:
 
Death to photocopies!  Folks on this list should know better.  Copies of
magazines and used books are incredibly easy to obtain, through SF specialty
shops all over the U.S., Canada, and Great Britain.  There's no excuse.
 
And it isn't even altogether a matter of money--a photocopy of a magazine
story doesn't get Lucius any royalties.  There are important principles
involved, not the least of which is that indiscriminate distribution and
reproduction of material can damage the author's actual ownership of that
property.
 
GAE

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 19:07:33 1995
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Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 18:07:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: Daniel S Goodman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for Witches
To: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]>
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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The Witches of Karres, by James Schmitz.  It's in several collections, 
none of which I can recall the name of just now.  There is also a novel 
version -- which is the original story with much that I consider inferior 
tacked on.

On Tue, 2 May 1995, Mark Woolrich wrote:

> Yet another query about a long lost title.  Sorry, but you're so good at 
> this.
> This time the I'm after the author of a short story that appeared in a 
> collection published in the mid seventies under a collective title that I am 
> sure included the word "Infinity".  I think it was edited by Damon Knight, 
> but that may be a poisson rouge.  My best guess at a title for the story is 
> "Witches of Kars".  It involved a race of humans who could move their planet 
> by use of rituals and apparant magic.  Any ideas?
> You may not be interested in this, but the reason for these requests for 
> help is that twenty years ago I had a box full of my favourite books 
> poisoned by a spillage of paraquat and I've been trying to replace the ones 
> I liked ever since.
> 
> markw
> 
> "They come at night... Mostly." - Newt.
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 19:08:45 1995
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Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 20:09:12 -0300 (ADT)
From: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Looking for Witches
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Mark: I think what you want is *The Witches of Karres* by James H. 
Schmitz. It is a novel now, and my c opy is published in New York, by Ace,
and dated 1981. Original publication is shown as 1966.
If I'm right, please telll me the origin of the quotation at the end of 
your message.

On Tue, 2 May 1995, Mark Woolrich wrote:

> Yet another query about a long lost title.  .  . My best guess at a title 
for the story is 
> "Witches of Kars".  It involved a race of humans who could move their planet 
> by use of rituals and apparant magic.  Any ideas?
> 
> "They come at night... Mostly." - Newt.

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 19:18:36 1995
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Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 19:18:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Arthur Hlavaty <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: shelf space
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>From what I've heard, Hubbard's sf novels are not ads for Scientology.  
They're long-winded, heavy, handed, & ill-written, but they're not ads 
for Scientology.  (Actually, when I read one of his books that was an ad 
for Scientology, I decided that if that is what Enlightenment does to 
one's prose, I do not wish to be Enlightened.)

Arthur D. Hlavaty             [log in to unmask]
Church of the SuperGenius   In Wile E. We Trust


From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 19:33:43 1995
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Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 19:33:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Arthur Hlavaty <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: M. Coleman Easton
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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> For cool and unusually depicted female characters, M. Coleman Eastman's _Masters
> of Glass_ and _The Fisherman's Curse_ , are both superb, as well as being great
> reads. M. Coleman Eastman, (who I believe is a man), effortlessly (well, it
> *seemed* effortless) creates fully realized female characters. There was
> *something* undefinable about _Masters of Glass_ which made me think "I have
> never read anything quite like this before".
> 
M. Coleman Easton is male.  He & I were elementary school classmates.  We 
were the 2 excessively smart unpopular little weirdos who stereotypically 
turn out to be sf writers or fans.

Arthur D. Hlavaty             [log in to unmask]
Church of the SuperGenius   In Wile E. We Trust


From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 20:20:07 1995
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Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 17:17:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi,  etc.

Before putting this whole line of discussion aside (as I hope we will in
the near future) the topic that "Signifying Nothing" and "Stephanie Hall"
are discussing "smells" dangeriously close to the "Political Correctness"
issues that have always bothered me.  There are words in the English
Language that historically put-down, demean, or otherwise offend others.
The "rest" of the language is subject to the interpretations of those who
encounter it.  By "beigeing" language, we come dangerously close to
censorship.  The colorful metaphors I choose to use to describe myself
never will, or should, be used to describe any others of my race, color,
creed, sex, sexual orientation yadda, yadda, yadda.  I am also sick and
tired of someone else deciding what label I will and will not use.  If I
choose to label myself a "Trekkie", I am not implying or stating that
anyone else needs to also be so labeled.  And because I so label myself
is also not for anyone else to assume that it means I am not serious about
"TREK" and the various meanings it embraces.  Clearly, then, in this forum,
"SF" is the prefered usage.  I can appreciate that.  But don't assume that
if I choose to use the term "Sci-Fi" (as in sci-fi reader) to describe
myself that I am any less passionate about the genre, dedicated to learning
as much as I can about the various SF authors, or that I may be any less
learned in the subject.

Julie
Cataloger (and reader) of EATON SCIENCE FICTION
UC Riverside

In message Fri, 28 Apr 1995 21:13:12 -0400,
  Signifying Nothing <[log in to unmask]>  writes:

>
>>From: "Stephanie A. Hall" <[log in to unmask]>
>>  There is nothing "elitist" about fans prefering that the term "sci-fi"
>>  not be used, any more than it is elitist for any group to prefer that
>>  people not use ethnic or racial slurs  -- because that is the level of
>>  insult that "sci-fi" generates.
>>
>
> I would argue that the difference is, almost everyone knows that such
> slurs (e.g. "n*gger") are offensive. As this thread proves, not
> everyone realizes that there are those who find "sci-fi" offensive.
> I'm sure the person who originally started this thread didn't, and is
> regretting it now.
>
>
>>The other in-group out-group term that can get folks into trouble 'round
>>  here is "Trekkie."  Fans of the various Star Trek series prefer to be
>>  called "Trekkers."  The other is seen as an insult.
>>
>
> Again, don't make generalizations like that without a smile :)  I'm a
> fan of Trek, and I happily call myself a "trekkie," and know others
> who do too. The exception proves the rule?
>
> -joan
>
>
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
> <D. Joan [log in to unmask]>
>
>>Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak................<
>>
> <Whispers the o'erfraught heart and bids it break................>
>
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>>
>

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 20:22:30 1995
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Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 17:20:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: LOTR

And the Ents, and the Entwives, too!  (Where ever they may be!)

Julie
Cataloger (and reader) of Fantasy too.
UC Riverside

In message Sat, 29 Apr 1995 10:46:50 -0400,
  Camille <@loc.gov,@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>  writes:

> Boris, it is not surprising that many in your country would be very
> involved in THE LORD OF THE RINGS now.  It is not a light fantasy.  It
> talks about struggle and honor and the capacity of small people, working
> against terrible odds, to turn the world around.  It offers a lot of
> comfort for people who are struggling.
>
> I know that some people who look at the books now, here in the United
> STates, point to kings and wizards and say that it is about giving control
> to others, but we did not feel that way in the sixties.  Many of us in the
> sixties felt we were struggling against an unjust war and a government
> that lied to us all the time, and we protested and marched and talked
>
> about how different the world would be when we were in charge.  And
> THE LORD OF THE RINGS was a big part of that whole movement.
>
> Well, when we to an age where we could be in charge, many of us threw
> Frodo and Sam in a trunk in the attic and went out to join the people
> we had fought against before--easier to buy fancy cars and big houses
> that way.  But some of us still dream the world can be different,
> and we still love Hobbits and Elves.
>
> Camille
>


From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 20:58:16 1995
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Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 20:57:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Niven and militarism and ...
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 2 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

>  Now that I've wasted some internet space, let me get to my point. Trek is,
> like any mass market media, compromised by the need for conflict. The writers
> have to include action regularly and plausibly, otherwise there will be no
> audience. As it is huge numbers of people tell me they find Trek too "heady."

TV does not need the military to show conflict, drama, action.  Every 
saturday morning at 9h30 Bob, the wise old Pong, Dot and her little 
brother Enzo do battle against the scheming Megabyte or foil the evil 
Hexadecimal.  All within the confines of a mainframe computer.  It's 
called _Reboot_.

There was quite a lot of drama, conflict and action in SF films like 
Alien or Jurassic Park, yet there was not the tiniest soldier around.

You don't need the military or violence to have drama.

Militarism in literature means using the military as a crutch.


DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask]


From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 23:14:58 1995
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Date:         Tue, 02 May 95 23:12:29 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Alternate media
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Tue, 2 May 1995 14:03:29 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]>

About Gibson as movie--Johnny Mnemonic (spelling my own!)

About alternate media--I am working on a couple of chapters on SF CULTURE that
I keep screaming "hypertext, I need hypertext" for.  Things where the next
chapter could be any one of three, depending on your interests in the related
topics.  I am growing increasingly impatient with the limits of linearity
of the word frozen in print.

Camille

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Tue May  2 23:28:54 1995
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Date:         Tue, 02 May 95 23:28:44 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: From Mike Resnick: 1995 Hugo Ballot
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Tue, 2 May 1995 21:15:20 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]>

Mike--how did you miss out on a nomination for best professional artist?
Gotta learn to paint, man!

Camille
From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 00:37:04 1995
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Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 00:37:03 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Snow Crash and assorted topics

     A few weeks ago, it was mentioned that Snow Crash was a popular book
among students.  Having read it and been delighted about by it.  I am
wondering what the LIST's thoughts are on it and if anyone could recommend
any other of Mr. Stephenson's novels?
     Having seen of the militarism comments..may I suggest a three-pack of
reading for a multigenerational view
 Heinlein's--Starship Troopers(for the traditional WW II grunt as hero view)
   Haldeman's --The Forever War(for the post-vietnam view)
and, one of my favorites, Orson Scott Card's-- Ender's Game(for the high tech
depersonalization of war)
  by the way, re: SF/Sci Fi...should someone tell the Sci Fi channel how
ignorant it is..or is that the point?
     Regards,
     Chris


From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 00:37:04 1995
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Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 00:37:03 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Snow Crash and assorted topics

     A few weeks ago, it was mentioned that Snow Crash was a popular book
among students.  Having read it and been delighted about by it.  I am
wondering what the LIST's thoughts are on it and if anyone could recommend
any other of Mr. Stephenson's novels?
     Having seen of the militarism comments..may I suggest a three-pack of
reading for a multigenerational view
 Heinlein's--Starship Troopers(for the traditional WW II grunt as hero view)
   Haldeman's --The Forever War(for the post-vietnam view)
and, one of my favorites, Orson Scott Card's-- Ender's Game(for the high tech
depersonalization of war)
  by the way, re: SF/Sci Fi...should someone tell the Sci Fi channel how
ignorant it is..or is that the point?
     Regards,
     Chris

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 00:52:29 1995
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Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 21:35:18 -0700
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Sturgeon Answers
To: [log in to unmask]
X-Mailer: AIR Mail 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)

Last week I read a few messages on Sturgeon. Since I had just completed the 
work "Touch of Strange"by Sturgeon, and previously enjoyed Most than Human; I 
went looking for the story that was discussed. "Slow Sculpture" by Sturgeon is 
in a collection of short stories. The title of the hard back is "Sturgeon Is 
Alive and Well". It was published in 1971 by Putnam and Sons. I paid $4.76 for 
the book, and I saw another copy on the shelf. If someone still wishes this 
book, I can send along to them for the same cost as I paid. Both copies were 
in excellent condition. It is no effort for me to pick up. 

I shall read the book this weekend during my workout at the gym. I am 
finishing "Space Merchants" and should be ready to comment on the story then. 
I also found two more books by A. Merritt, Dee. "Dwellers in the Mirage" and 
"The Face in the Abyss" are the two novels that I just purchased. I found the 
1932 and 1931 unabridged complete versions. Which do you think I should work 
on next?

Joe de Beauchamp
Seattle, Washington, USA
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 02:33:17 1995
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Date: Wed, 03 May 1995 02:33:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: 1995 HOMer Final Ballot
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
X-Vms-To: INTERNET"[log in to unmask]"
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      Final Ballot for the CompuServe Science Fiction and Fantasy 
             Literature Forum's Fifth Annual HOMer Awards.  
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Novel:
 ======
 MOTHER OF STORMS                 John Barnes              Tor
 THE DOLPHINS OF PERN             Anne McCaffrey           Del Rey
 A MIRACLE OF RARE DESIGN         Mike Resnick             Tor
 END OF AN ERA                    Robert J. Sawyer         Ace
 REUNION ON NEVEREND              John E. Stith            Tor

 Novella:
 ========
 "The Last Plague"                Gregory Bennett          Analog Apr 94
 "Melodies Of The Heart"          Michael F. Flynn         Analog Jan 94
 "Last Summer At Mars Hill"       Elizabeth Hand           F&SF Mar 94
 "Haunted Humans"                 Nina Kiriki Hoffman      F&SF Jul 94
 "Seven Views Of Olduvai Gorge"   Mike Resnick             F&SF Oct/Nov 94
 "Les Fleurs Du Mal"              Brian Stableford         Asimov's Oct 94

 Novelette:
 ==========
 "The Martian Child"              David Gerrold            F&SF Sep 94
 "The Singular Habits Of Wasps"   Geoffrey A. Landis       Analog Apr 94
 "Another Story"                  Ursula K. Le Guin        Tomorrow Aug 94
 "Nekropolis"                     Maureen McHugh           Asimov's Apr 94
 "A Little Knowledge"             Mike Resnick             Asimov's Apr 94

 Short Story:
 ============
 "Painted Bridges"                Barbara Delaplace        ALTERNATE OUTLAWS
 "None So Blind"                  Joe Haldeman             Asimov's Nov 94
 "Virtual Love"                   Maureen McHugh           F&SF Jan 94
 "Barnaby In Exile"               Mike Resnick             Asimov's Feb 94
 "Birdie"                         Mike Resnick &
                                    Nicholas A. DiChario   F&SF May 94

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Balloting closes May 14. Winners to be announced by May 20. 


From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 04:44:07 1995
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	id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 03 May 95 09:14:59 UTC
From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: SF/Sci Fi in the UK
Date: Wed, 03 May 95 09:11:00 UTC
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Personally I've never heard of the term"skiffy" before it was mentioned in 
this list, and the only abrieviation of Science Fiction I come across in 
speech is Sci-Fi.  Were someone to mention SF to me I'd be more likely to 
associate it with San Francisco than Science Fiction.

markw - resident of the UK.

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 04:53:48 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF/Sci Fi
Date: Wed, 03 May 95 09:45:00 BST
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"Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>---------------------------------------------------------------------------  
 ---
>In the last mail Stephanie A. Hall said:
>>
>> On Fri, 28 Apr 1995, Signifying Nothing wrote:
>>
>> > I would argue that the difference is, almost everyone knows that such
>> > slurs (e.g. "n*gger") are offensive. As this thread proves, not
>> > everyone realizes that there are those who find "sci-fi" offensive.
>> > I'm sure the person who originally started this thread didn't, and is
>> > regretting it now.
>>
>> And, we should note, the person who responded did not take offense, but
>> just assumed that the user of the term was unfamiliar with the jargon.
>>
>  In Britian, I am told, dyed-in-the-wool
>> fans may use sci-fi without any awareness of its connotations in the US,
>
>No, I think the attitude is pretty much the same, viz:
>
>1) people who know the field well say SF
>2) people who a) don't or b) want to be patronising say sci-fi
>3) people in category a who want to refer to sf which DOES correspond
>to what people in category b think it is, or who are referring
>ironically but more affectionately than not to the whole field
>including themselves say skiffy.
>
>Ain't language odd? It's a wonder we ever manage to communicate
>at all :-)
>
>Andy Sawyer,
>Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
>Sydney Jones Library
>The University of Liverpool
>051-794-2733/2696
>[log in to unmask]


At the risk of sending everyone entirely to sleep...

On the whole I'd say this was true.  I'd have formulated the rules a little 
differently, but what the heck.  The main adjustment I'd make would be to 
the usage of "sci-fi".  Those in "Category 1" are prone to using the term 
"sci-fi" in conversation at times, in my opinion instinctively because it's 
a more phonologically distinctive term to use in conversation.  Presumably 
(assuming that the other rules have some validity) this occurs when one is 
paying more attention to oral clarity than to political weighting in speech, 
or when talking to people whom the possibly more esoteric-sounding "SF" 
might alienate (though here "science fiction" is probably more likely for 
clarity).  So the "dictionary definitions" of the terms would be more or 
less as Andy describes, although everyday usage would tend to blur this 
effect and it is, as he points out, a wonder that we ever understand each 
other at all.

(Sorry - I've been reading too much philology lately.  And /is/ there, 
actually, a hyphen in "anal retentive"?)

Overall, I think that sensitivity to the terms applies as much in the UK as 
in the US, anyway.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 05:00:48 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: From Karen Warton Militarism, etc.
Date: Wed, 03 May 95 09:54:00 BST
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Karen Wharton wrote:

>The consequences of violence, and the belief that it accomplishes anything,
>are all around us.  I have not read Niven, but (e.g.) Tom Clancy's attitude
>of "Gee whiz, isn't this neat? And isn't it great that =our government= has
>this ability?" is very disturbing.


It can get worse, apparently.  There is a statement attributed to Dan Quayle 
which goes something like "We definitely need Star Wars -  without it we'd 
never have prevailed in Red Storm Rising."  Scary (and hopefully apocryphal) 
stuff.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 05:01:01 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Lucius Shepard
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 09:38:18 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "[log in to unmask]" at May 2, 95 11:56:54 am
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In the last mail [log in to unmask] said:
> 
> I HAVE BEEN SEAarching for a copy of Lucius Shepard's Life During Wartime for a
>  long time now - I work part time in a book shop when I'm not a postgrad studen
> t  here in Birmingham UK and I know for a fact that it is out of print. If anyo
> ne sees one in a British second hand bookshop could the contact me? I could the
> n contact the shop. 

As you'rein Birmingham have you tried Andromeda Books?

Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library
The University of Liverpool
051-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]


> 
> 
> 


From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 05:05:48 1995
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	id <[log in to unmask]>; Wed, 03 May 95 09:38:14 UTC
From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Thanks for Witches - more Schmitz?
Date: Wed, 03 May 95 09:34:00 UTC
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Many thanks for all the responses on The Witches of Karres.  I shall see 
whether I can get hold of either version of the story.  Can anyone, (Patty 
perhaps), suggest other titles by James Schmitz I might still find in print?

Please reply direct if you don't think other list members will be 
interested.
[log in to unmask] - be-Witched by the Leewit

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 05:18:38 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: militarism in SF
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Rick ([log in to unmask]) wrote:

>And some of the eccentricities such as the "Fuck you, Sir!" as
>standard military language [...] are, it seems to me, dead giveaways that 
the book is not
>to be taken straight.


I agree.  As a "Brit", I occasionally wonder whether "Roger that" 
(apparently perfectly everyday military usage, though maybe only in the US) 
is used here and there for exactly the same reason.  In the UK (and not, I 
think, in the US), "roger" is a slang verb concerning cursory but 
enthusiastically-prosecuted sex, generally from a somewhat chauvinistic 
point of view....

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 05:18:55 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: New Gibson film
Date: Wed, 03 May 95 10:10:00 BST
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>One of our list readers asked about the new film that is rumoured to be
>appearing soon which is a rendering of a Gibson story.  I believe the
>film and original story have the same name, "Johnny Mnemonic".  I've read
>a couple of reviews of the film in production and it sounds like an
>excellent Cyberpunk vision a la "Bladerunner" and "Tek Wars".  Due out,
>I believe, in July.


That's what I hear, though I'm not sure of the release date.  I gather it's 
filmed in black and white, which may or may not be a good thing but I'm 
inclined to think it's positive.  The original story was certainly very 
good, so that's a start (though not a guarantee, I know...).  Did I hear 
somewhere something about Keanu Reeves being in it?  Or am I just sliding 
further down that there slope?

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 07:43:05 1995
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From: Bob Roehm <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Johnny Mnemonic
To: "SF & Fantasy Discussion Forum" <[log in to unmask]>


Gibson's screenplay for "Johnny Mnemonic" is due to be published by Ace as a
trade paperback this summer. And a novelization of the movie is also to be
published, this by Terry Bisson. While I generally think novelizations aren't
worth the paper they're printed on, any new work by Bisson is worth looking
at.

Bob

Robert A. Roehm
Asst., Office of Collection Mgmt., Ekstrom Library
Univ of Louisville, Louisville KY 40292
[log in to unmask] - (502)852-8715

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 09:45:36 1995
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Date:         Wed, 03 May 95 09:44:02 EDT
From: Sean <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      RE: New Gibson film
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 3 May 1995 09:37:07 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

>That's what I hear, though I'm not sure of the release date.  I gather it's
>filmed in black and white, which may or may not be a good thing but I'm
>inclined to think it's positive.  The original story was certainly very
>good, so that's a start (though not a guarantee, I know...).  Did I hear
>somewhere something about Keanu Reeves being in it?  Or am I just sliding
>further down that there slope?

Hmmmm...black and white, I don't think so. I just saw the preview on t.v.
a few days ago - and it was quite colorful ;-) Yes, Keanu Reeves is in it
as the courier who has to download all that info before his mind crashes,
or something like that. I hope it is a la Bladerunner - dark, grimy, wet,
a real nasty world.
                            - Sean -

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 10:26:30 1995
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Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 10:20:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alex Dunlap <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Alternate media (Gibson Movie)
In-Reply-To: <9505022100.026B9C@martinw>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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I understand that gibsons script for alien3 involved an infestation on an 
l-5 colony and would have been prohibitivaly expensive to film at the time.
considering the pace of inovation in the realm of special efx I wonder if 
things might be different now. 

From shal  Wed May  3 10:31:28 1995
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From: "Stephanie A. Hall" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi, etc.
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Wed, 3 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Before putting this whole line of discussion aside (as I hope we will in
> the near future) the topic that "Signifying Nothing" and "Stephanie Hall"
> are discussing "smells" dangeriously close to the "Political Correctness"
> issues that have always bothered me.  

As I said, I am a folklorist who is interested in the uses of language 
(as well as in SF). I am have been very interested in people's reports 
of the various ways that people use the terms SF and Sci-fi (Thank you 
to everyone for your responses). But I do not in any way intend to assert 
that people should or should not use these terms in any particular ways 
(to attempt to do so is pointless; language grows like kudzu).  

At the same time I do acknowledge that people in a community may assert 
how they and the things that are important to them should be called. 
Knowing which terms are accepted and which are offensive (at any given 
time) is as important to those who wish to communicate on good terms with 
that group as knowing how to say please and thank you in the local language.  
Whether or not it is "politically correct," it is polite.
    
Stephanie

PS -  "Signifying Nothing" is D. Joan Leib

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist           The Library of Congress
American Folklife Center               preserves and houses
Library of Congress                    countless ideas and opinions.
Washington, DC 20540-8100              Those expressed here 
[log in to unmask]                           are my own.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^




From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 10:31:47 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: New Gibson film
Date: Wed, 03 May 95 15:29:00 BST
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>>That's what I hear, though I'm not sure of the release date.  I gather 
it's
>>filmed in black and white, which may or may not be a good thing but I'm
>>inclined to think it's positive.  The original story was certainly very
>>good, so that's a start (though not a guarantee, I know...).  Did I hear
>>somewhere something about Keanu Reeves being in it?  Or am I just sliding
>>further down that there slope?
>
>Hmmmm...black and white, I don't think so. I just saw the preview on t.v.
>a few days ago - and it was quite colorful ;-) Yes, Keanu Reeves is in it
>as the courier who has to download all that info before his mind crashes,
>or something like that. I hope it is a la Bladerunner - dark, grimy, wet,
>a real nasty world.

Colour, eh?  Well, it's lucky that even I don't listen to me.

That'll be Reeves as Johnny, yes.  I seem to recall that Molly's name has 
been changed.  Probably also wrong, of course, but when I heard that I 
couldn't understand why that was an important alteration to make.

I'm still sure I heard /some/ kind of plan for b&w at some point, anyway, so 
there...

          Dave

From cstu  Wed May  3 10:52:03 1995
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Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 10:52:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Name and address, Please
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Since some mailers strip off the header information, if you want a reply,
please put your preferred name and your email address somewhere in your
message.  That way, we can all find you (evil scientist laughter).

Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh,
Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT [log in to unmask]



From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 10:40:23 1995
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Wed, 03 May 95 10:40 EDT
From: [log in to unmask] (cb52)
Subject: Re: 1995 HOMer Final Ballot 
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> 

>
>      Final Ballot for the CompuServe Science Fiction and Fantasy 
>             Literature Forum's Fifth Annual HOMer Awards.  
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Short Story:
> ============
> "Painted Bridges"                Barbara Delaplace        ALTERNATE OUTLAWS
> "None So Blind"                  Joe Haldeman             Asimov's Nov 94
> "Virtual Love"                   Maureen McHugh           F&SF Jan 94
> "Barnaby In Exile"               Mike Resnick             Asimov's Feb 94
> "Birdie"                         Mike Resnick &
>                                    Nicholas A. DiChario   F&SF May 94
>

What is the story "Virtual Love" by Maureen McHugh about?




C. Douglas Baker
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
        [log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 11:47:13 1995
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Mack Lundy" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Continuing to Flog the SF vs Sci Fi vs Skiffy discussion
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wed, 3 May 95 11:48:51 PDT
Encoding:  12 TEXT , 4 TEXT 

I was unaware of the contempt, held by some, for the use of sci fi instead
of SF until I started reading science fiction discussion groups on bulletin
boards.  Likewise, I have never heard of "skiffy" used for science fiction.

I wonder if there is a relationship between SF vs Sci Fi and attendance at
science fiction conventions (cons, I believe they are called).  I have read -
in messages on other listservs and, I think, in the mystery Bimbos of the
Death Sun - that attendees at cons sometimes refer to non-devotees as "
mundanes."  I have not had an opportunity to atttend a convention so I don't
know how widespread this practice is.  Am I stretching the point when I
think that there seems to be similar need in both cases to distinguish the
true believer from the masses.

Mack A. Lundy III                                    [log in to unmask]
Library Systems Manager, Swem Library
College of William and Mary, Williamsburg, VA
VOICE:  (804) 221-3114      FAX:  (804) 221-3088

From cstu  Wed May  3 13:07:48 1995
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From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Mark Stackpole: Re: Thanks for Witches - More Schmitz?
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 11:46:22 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Notification

>From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 11:46:20 1995
Subject: Forwarded: Thanks for Witches - more Schmitz?

That's the killer: James Schmitz still in print. There is only one 
title available currently, "The Best of James H. Schmitz" published 
by the New England SF Association two or three years ago. The 
collection contains his most reprinted short story "Ballanced 
Ecology" and "Lion Loose", which re-cycles the "Yojimbo" plot a good 
three years before Sergio Leone got around to it with "A Fistfull of 
Dollars".
As for out-of-print items, the collection "A Pride of Monsters" 
contains my favorite Schmitz story: "The Searcher", which starts out 
as a simple espionage tale, and switches suddenly into a suspensful 
BEM yarn.
Mark Stackpole
 

Message:
From: (Mark Woolrich) [log in to unmask]:smtp
Date: ## 05/03/95 09:19 ##

Many thanks for all the responses on The Witches of Karres.  I shall see 
whether I can get hold of either version of the story.  Can anyone, (Patty 
perhaps), suggest other titles by James Schmitz I might still find in print?

Please reply direct if you don't think other list members will be 
interested.
[log in to unmask] - be-Witched by the Leewit




From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 11:55:59 1995
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Date:         Wed, 03 May 95 11:49:06 EDT
From: Sean Alan Wallace <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Introit
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 3 May 1995 11:37:56 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]>

Hi Brenda!

>Well, I've only been on this list for two days, but I'm going to dive in and
>introduce myself anyway. I hate lurking. I don't hate lurkers, mind, just
>lurking. :)

Oh sure, give lurkers a bad name ;-)

>I'm of the FIJAGH class of fan, but I'm working on changing that, albeit
>slowly. I just mailed my first attempt at making money off a short story
>today. I don't say sell because I chose the L. Ron Hubbard Writers of the
>Future contest. Why? I'm not utterly sure, but it felt like the right thing
>to do. Registering a reasoned complaint about how a panel was conducted at
>BayCon five years ago has gotten me invited as a guest to each BayCon since.
>Maybe next year I'll be doing a reading. *hope, hope, pray, pray, WRITE,
>WRITE*

Whatcha write?  Fantasy, sf, or somewhere in the middle?

>I'm looking forward to talking with all of you. I see names familiar to me
>from my bookshelf, so even though I don't know you, I feel like I'm among
>friends already.

You should recognize Mikey (resnick) He always seems to pop up in the middle
of a discussion. And there's George Effinger...who else is there?  I have
an address book full of sf authors on the Net - want a list?

>And I dare intrude on one topic line... I hate "skiffy." It always sounded
>pretentious to me. I will say science fiction, SF, or sci-fi. If someone uses
>"skiffy" seriously in my presence, I tend to wince subtly and keep going,
>taking my respect for the speaker down about  half a peg. If they correct me
>for using "sci-fi," the respect level plummets. I also live in the San
>Francisco area and say "Frisco" with regularity. Some things just aren't
>meant to be taken that seriously in my mind. :) (I should also confess to
>having shared a panel with Forry Ackerman, and fell for him immediately,
>which crystallized my liking for "sci-fi" over "skiffy.")

and a few others. I'm not really going to enter this discussion of sf/science
fiction/skiffy/ - most times, I just use sf, science fiction rarely, and as
for skiffy - whoever made that up needs to be shot ;-)

Anyway, welcome to the group, Brenda - what do you read?

- Sean -


*this space is usually filled with something funny, but for the life of me,
I can't think of anything - oh well*

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 12:05:21 1995
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From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Johnny Mnemonic
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 3 May 1995 09:43:48 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

It strikes me as profoundly weird that a short story by Gibson, with a
screen play by Gibson, in a universe created by Gibson, couldbe novelized
by Terry Bisson.  I love Bisson, but he's not exactly cyberpunk.  And,
hasn't Gibson already sort of written the novelization in NEUROMANCER,
COUNT ZERO, et al.?   I really, really hope this is an unsubstantiated
rumor, but
The bean counters will never cease to amaze me.

Camille

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 12:16:50 1995
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Date: Wed, 3 May 95 12:16:46 EDT
From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Continuing to Flog the SF vs Sci Fi vs Skiffy discussion


Yes, con-goers do refer to non-readers of SF as "the mundanes."  We
also use "fen" as the plural form of "fan".  Any close-knit community
bound by a common interest will develop its own linguistic quirks that
will seem strange and incomprehensible to outsiders.  However, between
the fen and the mundanes, there is a very large group of people who
like to read science fiction, but who don't attend conventions or involve
themselves with the genre in any other way.  Fandom actually makes up
only a small part of the science fiction readership, and there's no reason
why this small part should impose its way of speaking on the rest of the
world.  Personally, I always say SF (or skiffy, if I'm being facetious).
But if I hear someone saying sci-fi, I don't correct them.  Either they'll
join fandom and find out for themselves, or they won't, in which case
it doesn't matter how they say it.

Marina Frants
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 13:04:04 1995
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Date: Wed, 03 May 1995 13:04:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Mike Resnick: 1995 Hugo Ballot
To: [log in to unmask]
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 *sigh*  Color-blind. <g>

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 13:06:20 1995
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Date: Wed, 03 May 1995 13:06:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF/Sci Fi in the UK
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Well, to muddy the waters further, the traditional abbreviation for
science fiction is "stf", pronounced "stiff", and derived from Hugo
Gernsback's "scientifiction". It's still used in a lot of the more
tradition-conscious fanzines.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 13:39:38 1995
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From: katie auslander <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi,  etc.etc.etc...
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 13:39:39 -0400 (EDT)
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	lots o' stuff deleted

 "SF" is the prefered usage.  I can appreciate that.  But don't assume that
> if I choose to use the term "Sci-Fi" (as in sci-fi reader) to describe
> myself that I am any less passionate about the genre, dedicated to learning
> as much as I can about the various SF authors, or that I may be any less
> learned in the subject.
> 
> Julie
> Cataloger (and reader) of EATON SCIENCE FICTION
> UC Riverside
> 
	
	I have been avoiding commenting on this subject for a while. 
Julie's above comment just about sums it up for me.  In the "politically
correct" world that we all seem to be sharing, we argue over silly little
points in terminology.  Just because someone uses a different word to
describe something, doesn't mean that someone doesn't enjoy the
aforementioned something.  
	So far, I think, that the general conclusion of this discussion, is
that some people perfer SF, some perfer Sci-fi, and there are the few who
use Skiffy.  I think we should all use what we like.  For in the words of
the Bard: "A rose by any other name, would smell as sweet..."
			-Katie...:)

From cstu  Wed May  3 13:42:54 1995
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From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Let's stop the SF vs. Sci-Fi thread
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The messages are starting to get an Us/Them edge, so why don't we agree 
to disagree on this and move on to other topics.  

Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 13:52:20 1995
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From: Karen Warton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Militarism a fact of life?
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(Climbs on no-phosphate soapbox)

Militarism is a sad fact of life, *now*, but so was cowpox,
until we worked to find a cure.  If we give in to militarism, thinking
it to be some inevitable force, we'll deserve the consequences.

(Clambers down from soapbox with a solemn promise not to comment further
on this thread)

Karen Warton
DeGolyer Library
Southern Methodist University, Dallas



From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 13:58:23 1995
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Language helps to determine the contours of human perception, the 
paradigms of thought, and our evaluational modalities for both.  Thus,
this teapot tempest about what term we use to describe our genre is
trivial only in the most superficial of senses.  With this apologia,
let me leap in to the fray.  Having taught some 20 semesters of 
Science Fiction, I can provide the following stats for my students'
uses of the various terms:

	Speculative Fiction:  1%
	Science Fiction:     10%
	SF		     20%
	SciFi		     65%
	Skiffy:		      0%
	Continuously Bewildered:  4%

Even though I casually mention these terms and their connotative and
pejorative distinctions during the semester (but do not make an issue
of the matter), these ratios do not show a marked alteration when
comparing terminology used at the commencement of a semester with that
employed at its termination.

Generally, my sense is that the increasing percentages are inversely
related to the students' degrees of sophistication about and/or
immersion in the genre.  In other words, approximately two-thirds of
my students are rank neophytes (often, I'm afraid, looking for an easy
end-run around the department's institution-wide literature/composition
requirement), and it is, therefore, likely in general that someone who
uses the term SciFi is also a neophyte.

A word about Stephanie's comment concerning political correctness:  it 
is an unfortunate term hijacked by the conservative Right from earlier
diatribes seeking (appropriately) to discredit Stalinist tactics in
the USSR and applied to attempts to reform language use in N. America
so that this program of resignification would itself be discredited.

But in fact, all PC really means is what Stephanie has suggested:
politeness...or, to put it another way, that no one has the right
to be rude, ill-mannered, or indecorous toward groups of human beings
(or even sentient creatures) who are distinguished from the majority
only by physical markers or social habits.

Which brings us back to SF:  many, many stories about aliens, cyborgs,
robots, etc. are essentially dealing with the question of to whom should
the good manners of human dignity and human rights be extended?  This
is, of course, the central question in _Bladerunner_  and in the 
episodes of STNG dealing with who owns Data and what can be done
with him.

Rick

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 14:15:29 1995
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Subject: Forwarded: Re: Johnny Mnemonic

CEO comments:
From: Mark Stackpole:CEO
Date: ## 05/03/95 14:13 ##
There's a simple reason why Bisson is doing the novelization of 
Gibson's script: Gibson's asking price was way too high. 
However, as has been stated before, the Gibson *script* will be 
published in a trade edition.
Mark Stackpole
 

Message:
From: @loc.gov,@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]:smtp
Date: ## 05/03/95 13:29 ##
It strikes me as profoundly weird that a short story by Gibson, with a
screen play by Gibson, in a universe created by Gibson, couldbe novelized
by Terry Bisson.  I love Bisson, but he's not exactly cyberpunk.  And,
hasn't Gibson already sort of written the novelization in NEUROMANCER,
COUNT ZERO, et al.?   I really, really hope this is an unsubstantiated
rumor, but
The bean counters will never cease to amaze me.

Camille


From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 16:51:29 1995
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Sean> Anyone who writes "Mikey" will still have one hand left to write
"Mike" properly.

-- Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 16:54:46 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
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Actually, we developed most of our lexicon long ago. The best place to
look is FANCYCLOPEDIA II (published in 1959 by Dick Eney), which is
a single-spaced 200-plus page dictionary of fannish terms and their
origins and histories. There was also a 50-page FANCYCLOPEDIGEST, which
came out about 1963, and was supposed to carry the reader over until
the publication of FANCYCLOPEDIA III. As it turns out, FANCY III (its fannish
name, of course) was due to be published by LASFS to coincide with
LACon II, the 1984 worldcon, and is only eleven years late and counting,
also fannish in its way.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 16:56:37 1995
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Date: Wed, 03 May 1995 16:56:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi,  etc.etc.etc...
To: [log in to unmask]
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I thought the point of the discussion was that, for whatever reason, and
whether you agree or not, 90% or more of the pro community finds "sci-fi"
an offensive term, and now that you all know it, why would you use it
around people who feel that way and have never done you any harm?

-- Mike Resnick


From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 18:40:41 1995
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Date:         Wed, 03 May 95 18:24:52 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject:      Re: Introit
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 3 May 1995 18:08:11 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

>Sean> Anyone who writes "Mikey" will still have one hand left to write
>"Mike" properly.

Whooops, DID I do that?  Purely a typing mistake I assure you  -   It will
never happen again, Mikey...;-)

*sound of Mike grinding his teeth*
Mike Resnick picked up a meat cleaver from the table and approached Sean.
"Dear god, Mike, don't do it!"  Sean exclaimed, searching for a way out.
"Hey man, I was just kidding."
Not replying, Mike strode forth to cut the offending member. Sean screamed
as the cleaver flew down. Blood poured profusely out of his wrist, pooling upon
the floor in a crimson lake. His hand lay to his right, the fingers still
twitching.
"Don't ever, ever call me Mikey." Mike turned around and left the room, leaving
Sean on the floor.


I'm definitely ax-ing for it.         - Sean -
    ___
  _|___|_
   |O O|
   ( ^ ) Sean Alan Wallace
    \O/  Not a librarian,
     "   Not a writer,
         just your ordinary Joe.


P.S. Hey, Mike (I'm tempted to add that y ) aren't you coming to MARCON?
Better bring the cleaver - Who else on  the list is going to MARCON?

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 18:48:59 1995
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From: Daniel S Goodman <[log in to unmask]>
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On Tue, 2 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Although he has several proto-SF short stories, the
> one that deals most explicitly with militarism and oppression of the
> underdog by a violent elite is "As Easy As ABC".  But I must confess
> that I am bewildered as to how to read the center of gravity of this
> story -- for me, it is a confusing and confusingly ambiguous work.  Of
> the two contending sides in the conflict, which one has K's sympathies?

Neither side has his respect; both have his sympathies.  "As Easy As ABC" 
is an ambiguous utopia.  Others in the same category:  Le Guin's The 
Dispossessed, Robert Graves's Watch the North Wind Rise/Seven Days in New 
Crete.

Dan Goodman [log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 19:07:39 1995
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From: Daniel S Goodman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: From Mike Resnick: 1995 Hugo Ballot
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On Wed, 3 May 1995, Camille wrote:

> Mike--how did you miss out on a nomination for best professional artist?
> Gotta learn to paint, man!

He may get that nomination after _Alternate Resnicks_ (edited by Michelle 
Resnick) comes out.

Dan Goodman [log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 19:19:00 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Gibson Movie Involvement
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wed,  3 May 95 16:12:14 PDT
Message-Id: <9505032312.0E6444@martinw>
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Kevin Runyon ([log in to unmask]) asked for more info on the unused Gibson 
script for ALIEN 3:

|I would be interested in hearing more about that Martin.
|
|Kev
|Kevin Runyon
[log in to unmask]

I'm about to write what may be referred to as a "spoiler" (revealing 
details of a work before you wish to know them), so those of you who 
plan to read Gibson's script as a piece of fiction, be warned).

I first heard about this script from the ALIENS FAQ, which is regularly 
posted to one of the Usenet groups (alt.rec.movies... whatever .Alien). 
 I subsequently obtained and read the script, and was pleasantly 
surprised by Gibson's screenwriting abilities (more on that later).

Without knowing specifically what you (the SF-Lit readership) want to 
hear, I'll try and limit my message to a few items:  (1)  the basic 
plot of the script, (2)  some thoughts on why it was rejected, and (3) 
 my opinion of Gibson's screenwriting ability.

First, the basic plot:  

We start where ALIENS left off, with the Sulaco carrying some 
characters back to Earth after their encounter.  Via his exposure to 
the queen at the end on ALIENS, Bishop has been "infected" with Alien 
spores, and has been transforming into an Alien egg during the ride 
home (note:  this is not terribly far removed from the ALIEN paradigm 
if you take into account scenes cut from ALIEN).  

When the Sulaco returns to Earth orbit, it is boarded by 
representatives of the major geo-political opponent to The Company, 
whom I'll call the eastern powers.  The eastern powers maintain an 
orbital station (as does The Company).  Observing Bishop's state, they 
extract some organic material from him and begin experimenting with it. 
 Meanwhile, they send the Sulaco back into orbit, where it gets 
intercepted by the Company's station.

On the Company orbital station (which is occupied by hundreds of 
personnel), efforts are made by Company reps to extract whatever's 
commercially useful from the Alien organic material left on the Sulaco. 
 This eventually leads to (via genetic experimentation) an infestation 
of the Alien spores on the station.  Thus chaos and mayhem begins to 
reign, with a few priciple characters (some new, some old) trying to 
deal with the situation.

There's some interesting parallel scenes at this point with the 
activities on the eastern powers station:  They've succeeded in 
releasing the Alien menace upon themselves as well, with some 
terrifying differences due to genetic manipulation.

Eventually, the group on the Company's station (including the principle 
characters) makes a last stand, and succeeds in escaping with help from 
a character from the eastern powers station.


Next, some thoughts on why this didn't get made into a film:

[log in to unmask] wrote:

|I understand that gibsons script for alien3 involved an infestation on 
|an l-5 colony and would have been prohibitivaly expensive to film at 
|the time.  considering the pace of inovation in the realm of special 
|efx I wonder if things might be different now. 

First of all, despite all the conjecture I will spout, I suspect that 
there were dozens, if not hundreds of "back-room" deals and 
conversations over lunch, etc., that figured into the decision not to 
use the Gibson script (and to instead go with the ponderous mass that 
resulted in ALIEN^3).  

Certainly cost was a factor, but I don't believe that the costs of the 
sets and/or special effects were the sole concern.  With the 
big-screen, action-oriented nature of the film, I imagine that they 
wanted a director who could almost guarantee a blockbuster--someone 
like Cameron.  His salary, along with Sigourney's AND the other 
production costs combined with skittishness over Terminator 2's rising 
costs at the time (185 million before advertising) may have worried 
ALIEN3's producers.

I have a further theory about this decision, but as it is even MORE 
conjecture, I'll only inflict it on those who would like to hear it 
(just e-mail me).

The other factor to the decision that I've heard is regarding the use 
of the eastern powers (I believe its name in the script was the "Union 
of Progressive Peoples"), an obvious allusion to the Soviet Union.  
With the USSR's collapse, the decision makers may have thought their 
inclusion would have dated or obsoleted the film.  I don't think much 
of this argument; a very small amount of imagination could have easily 
turned that group into some other geo-political enemy of The Company.

Postscript on the ALIEN epic:  The rumblings are that a fourth movie is 
being discussed, with ALIEN^3 discarded as apocryphal.


Finally, on Gibson's screenwriting abilities:

Although I enjoy his fiction, I often find that the structure and 
composition of Gibson's sentences and paragraphs impede my immediate 
undertanding of the story at hand.   Admittedly, this may be a lack on 
my part, but it seems that the sparse format of the screenplay compels 
the writer to present the activity clearly and concisely.  Gibson's 
storytelling gifts in terms of timing and dialog are thus well 
exhibited in the scripts for both ALIEN 3 and Johnny Mnemonic.

In response to Camille Bacon-Smith's disbelief about Bisson novelizing 
the Johnny Mnemonic script, Mark Stackpole responded:

|There's a simple reason why Bisson is doing the novelization of 
|Gibson's script: Gibson's asking price was way too high. 
|However, as has been stated before, the Gibson *script* will be 
|published in a trade edition.

I've glad the script will be available in trade format; I think it 
stands quite well as a piece of fiction, and as an extended incarnation 
of his existing short story.  I also think it might be somewhat 
frustrating for Gibson to describe the action of his story as 
interpreted by film makers.


As always, all input/comments welcome...

-Martin S. Won


From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 19:36:03 1995
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Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 19:36:01 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Niven and militarism and ...

 I see your point about using the military as a crutch, but let's face it
every one of your examples I recognize has violent conflict. ( I don't
recognize the _Reboot_  refernece but violence inside a computer is violence
just the same. Particularly if the stakes are still existence.)
 The military isn't involved in your examples, but lets face it, the military
puts itself in dangerous situations all the time. They go where the action is.
 No one said that "the action" was any fun, it often is actually unpleasant.
How would you like to take a beating from holding a door shut with a
velociraptor on the other side ? Sounds almost as fun as getting shot at.
 The reality of the universe seems to be that interesting technological
environments inevitably have technological monuments that represent a
valuable investment of resources. A Starship of whatever sort, the latest
transportation devices, whatever. You know, the science in science fiction.
This junk requires vast resource management and logistical expertise to put
together.
 This applies even to very simple things. Take a Phaser in Star Trek, or
whatever the common ray weapon or other gadget is in your favorite universe.
I pick the phaser. For argument's sake I'm gonna compare it to the M-16A2.
The phaser has power clips, the M-16 has cartridges. The phaser requires
power, the M-16 requires bullets. Phasers have to be tuned and focused. The
M-16 has to be leveled and zeroed. The phaser is made of a variety of
materials ranging from a composite metal/plastic outer shell to a series of op
tical elements, to a computer for input processingand all its parts. I'm not
even gonna start on how many parts the M-16 has, but its parts range from
plastic to stainless steel and even iron I'm told. The M-16 is manufactured
by Colt firearms and Kenner ( Yes the toy company. Confidence inspiring isn't
it ?) Both companies employ a number of subcontractors to procure parts. Colt
uses a subcontractor specifically to mill the firing pin. Kenner uses a
different contractor to produce the same part. Both companies subcontract the
raw creation of the plastics and metals in the weapon. They both even use
subcontractors to help manage the paperwork produced by the morass of
subcontractors. Suffice it to say that its a big project. Only a government
could pull together the resources needed to get it rolling. (The government,
that's how a toy company got involved.)
 Lets go back though to the 1950's when DOD issued the request for reasearch
for a new firearm with certain characteristics. They wanted a firearm that
seriously exceeded the capabilities of their previous firearms, insofar as
how many bullets could be fired per minute, what range it could kill at and
so on. No one anywhere knew how to build such a weapon. Lots of scientists
and enigineers had to be involved in designing and testing the weapon. This
is HARD stuff. Again the government had to initiate the project.
 I could've picked the Space Shuttle, or Cellular Phones or the Internet to
bore you all with, but they are even more daunting.
 Governments don't invent radical new technologies for the fun of it. And
they want control over the end product. Soldiers are not allowed to fully
dissassemble M-16's for technical and security reasons. Oh yeah, soldiers.
The government creates militaries to use this stuff. They also create Space
Agencies, like NASA and ESA.
 Governments don't want their stuff broken either. Believe me folks, if
someone was shooting at the Shuttle NASA would arm&armor it to the teeth.
We'd probably go along with it as a populace, probably even support it.
 Why militaries ? Why not Greenpeace ?? I like Greeenpeace, but when Saddam
came rolling into Kuwait they just couldn't help. Neither could NASA. We'll
always have militaries so long as there might be aggressors out there
anywhere. Militaries get all the coolest toys first, so they get written
about. Yes, the first matter energy transporter will belong to a military. (
By the way matter energy trasport is theoretically possible, E=mc^2. c is a
constant, so energy is matter in a different form.)
 I guess that's the really longwinded way of saying the military is
neccessary. Sorry but you all have my hackles up on this one, I really don't
see the military itself as bad, rather like a gun, it is what you do with it
that determines its value. Maybe I should'v just said that to begin with.
 Starfleet is as much a research and exploration group as it is a military.
In teh Next Generation, they end up with more military responsibilities,
because of a stagnation of explorable areas. They need faster ships and more
political alliances to enter a free and more scientific era.
 Well I'm starting to babble and I have to go to work.
 Go Virtually -Alexander [log in to unmask]

Vaillancourt's message:
TV does not need the military to show conflict, drama, action.  Every 
saturday morning at 9h30 Bob, the wise old Pong, Dot and her little 
brother Enzo do battle against the scheming Megabyte or foil the evil 
Hexadecimal.  All within the confines of a mainframe computer.  It's 
called _Reboot_.

There was quite a lot of drama, conflict and action in SF films like 
Alien or Jurassic Park, yet there was not the tiniest soldier around.


 

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 21:34:37 1995
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From: Marcus C Sarofim <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Length: 1562


A couple of things have been mentioned about "fans" and "mundanes".
I would like to point out the large group of people in between - those
who have little contact with cons and pros, (amazingly enough, pun not
intended) but have read voraciously as much SF as they can get their hands on. 

I am currently President of one organization (the MIT Science Fiction
Society) whose motto is "We're not fans - we just read the stuff". 
While that doesn't apply to all of our members, it does apply to a 
large percentage of them, many of whom spend most of their waking,
non-studying hours reading sf. Many of whom would object to being
classified as fan or mundane.

Speaking of the MITSFS (yes, more abbreviations) - we claim to be
the largest open-stack science fiction collection in the world,
with some 18,000 titles (and many more fanzines and magazines
which aren't on our online databases). Does anyone on the list 
know if this is in fact true?

-Marcus Sarofim

------blatant plugs follow-----

p.s. For people interested, our HTML is
http://www.mit.edu:8001/activities/mitsfs/homepage.html
You can even browse our index, and see if in fact there are more titles
published by people whose name begins with A than other letters...
(1180 out of 18500). 

Also, being the maintainer of this library, I am always on the 
lookout for new sources of books/funds/information, so if 
anyone knows of people who are getting rid of their collections
or wish to donate money to a sf-worthy cause, if you could 
refer them to us, I would appreciate it greatly. Thanks!


From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 21:50:40 1995
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Date:         Wed, 03 May 95 21:46:10 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: SF/Sci Fi in the UK
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 3 May 1995 13:35:08 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

Mike, people who use stf as the "proper" abbreviation for science fiction
also think the only good fandom is a fifties fandom.

The one thing I hate about using sf in print is figuring out which article
to use in front of it--is it "a" sf story, figuring the person will see the
abbreviation but say the words, or is it "an" sf story, because the pronounced
spelling is esseff?  Sounds silly, until you try to write a book about SF
Culture!

Camille

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 21:53:08 1995
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Date:         Wed, 03 May 95 21:52:38 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Forwarded: Re: Johnny Mnemonic
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 3 May 1995 15:02:16 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

Mark Stackpole--about your answer to my comments about novelization
of Johnny Mnemonic--you did mean to prove my point, didn't you?

Camille

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 22:29:35 1995
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Date: Wed, 3 May 95 21:29:22 CDT
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask] (Jessica Frasca)
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: SF and movies (AllGrill)
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]



Hi!  I've been lurking here for a while and have enjoyed the
various threads I've been privy to.  I thought I'd squiggle
out of my primordial muckhole and respond to Allgrill's request
for the names of novels that would make good SF movies.

Unless I missed a post, I don't remember anyone mentioning
Asimov's _I, Robot_.

Harlan Ellison wrote a screenplay for it, which unfortunately
is languishing at Warner Brothers.  If Allgrill can't make
some kind of deal with them, maybe we can get Warner to blow
the dust off it themselves (contact person-Lucy Fisher, 
production head).

Easton Press put out a limited-edition, sumptuously illustrated
(by M
(by Mark Zug) version of the screenplay, in which Ellison tells
us to contact Fisher to plead for the movie's case.

Time to slither back into the muck!  See you!


--
--Jessica J. Frasca
[log in to unmask]

"The wa-aiting is the hardest part..."

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May  3 23:11:32 1995
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Date: Wed, 3 May 95 22:11:22 CDT
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask] (Jessica Frasca)
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Engines of the Night
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]



I just finished reading _The Engines of the Night_ by Barry N.
Malzberg (1982), a scathing look at the world of science fiction
writing and publishing.  I am curious as to what the rest of you
who may have read this book think of it, and how much of it
still applies 13 years later.

As an aspiring SF writer (who will have the great good fortune
to be attending Clarion this summer), I found the book
disturbing, yet with a hopeful trend.  Then I re-read Harlan
Ellison's essay "Xenogenesis" in the August 1990 issue of (then)
Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine, detailing the exploits
of a minority of crazed fans, directed against SF authors.  It
set my teeth on edge.

Re:  Malzberg's book:
How do publishers and editors treat writers nowadays?
Are SF editors and their "lists" more respected now?
In light of Ellison's essay (many of the exploits were perpe-
trated at conventions), is it still a good idea to involve
oneself in them in order to "make editor/publisher contacts?"
Can a first-timer get a publisher for, as Malzberg puts it, 
"truly innovative, original work," or must one build a rep
by getting a few books published that are more "traditional?"

Thanks to all for any thoughts on this post.


--
--Jessica J. Frasca
[log in to unmask]

"The wa-aiting is the hardest part..."

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 01:25:17 1995
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 4 May 1995 01:24:53 EST
Date: Thu, 04 May 1995 01:24:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Signifying Nothing <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: From Mike Resnick: 1995 Hugo Ballot
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]"
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> 1995 Hugo Award nominations
[...]
> John W. Campbell Award for Best New Writer
> Felicity Savage (1st year of eleigibility)
> ------------


AAaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!! *incoherent gurgle*

Sorry folks. Felicity Rose Savage is one of my best friends from high 
school; we used to critique each other's work. (I thought she was the 
best writer I'd ever known, and I hoped one day to be as good as she; 
the day we graduated, she told me that *she* had hoped one day she'd 
be as good as *me*!)   Anyway, for those who haven't read her, her 
novel is -Humility Garden- (Roc) and the sequel is due out soon. She 
wrote it when she was 18 (she's just past 20, now). She's also had a 
couple of stories in F&SF and Asimov's. Check her out!!!!!!!!

Now if only she'd get back from Japan so I can rave at her in person!!

-joan

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
<D. Joan [log in to unmask]>
>Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak................<
<Whispers the o'erfraught heart and bids it break................>
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 01:25:53 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 01:25:51 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Here Goes...

Well today is my first day on this list and already I've gotten more mail
then the past year put together!! :D I'm glad to meet all of you and hope
that I can put something of interest into the discussions.

Heading back to my bookshelf and then out to the library to read some more ;)

[log in to unmask] aka C1 aka me :)

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 02:50:11 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 16:53:18 +1000 (EST)
From: Catherine A Murdoch <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: supernatural animals 
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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I'm not sure whether this qualifies.  How about the spiders in John 
Wyndham's book "Web?"

--                                                                       --
Catherine Murdoch                  | Internet: [log in to unmask]
Auchmuty Library                   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 217147
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833

"If man could be crossed with a cat, it would improve man, but it would 
 deteriorate the cat."  -  Mark Twain


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 02:52:33 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 02:52:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: From Karen Warton Militarism, etc.
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Wed, 3 May 1995, Teresa J Warren wrote:

> While I've been EXTREMELY anti-military (esp. during my teenage and 
> 20-ish years), I've had to come to the conclusion that militarism is an 
> unfortunate fact of life.  And, as WWII and to a much lesser extent 
> Desert Storm have shown us, the military forces are sometimes necessary 
> to save other lives and to insure (for the protagonist nation) a certain 
> quality of life.  That's the message I got out of FOREVER WAR and most of 
> Heinlein's PAST THROUGH TOMORROW (aka Future History) anthology.
> 
> And, please let's face it:  Hitler's Nazi's and Stalin's Red Army weren't 
> going to stop exterminating Jews and other political prisoners if 
> forceful military AND diplomatic pressures weren't brought to bear.  
> Pacifism is useful ONLY if the other guy stops shooting.

You are confusing militarism with the military.

You can have a society, a country filled to the brim with soldiers, but 
not having a shred of militarism.

Some of the Dorsai books by Dickson portray such a society.

Militarism is about using military trappings (uniforms, decorations...) 
military values or military priorities in situations where they have no 
place. 

In the long run militarism is counter-productive and always leads to 
defeat in modern war, because industrial warfare requires a balanced 
society (with some investment in peaceful industry, some investment in 
culture and diplomacy, some investment in the military....) to back up 
the armed forces. Prussia was the most militaristic state in Europe and 
by winning the wars of 1866 and 1870 it made Germany into the most 
militaristic state in Europe.  You will note that Germany lost both wars 
in this century to states where the military had always been (till 1948 at 
least) kept on a tight leash.

Au revoir!

DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask] 


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 03:57:46 1995
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From: "A.Seaman" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Thu, 4 May 1995 08:57:05 +0100
Subject:       SF collections/librarianship
Priority: normal
X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>

Dear All,

As Andy Sawyer  knows (hi Andy!) I'm preparing to write about the
 Foundation SF Library (based at the University of Liverpool here in 
the UK) for my Master's degree dissertation.  If any librarians, or 
anyone else for that matter, would be interested in exchanging 
views/opinions about the pains and pleasures of SF librarianship 
and/or genre fiction collections/libraries in general, please feel 
free to mail me at the address below. The work's in the early stages 
of planning at the moment (still got a lot of coursework to do!), but 
I'd be extremely grateful for any ideas or opinions anyone has.
Thanks a lot!

Andrew Seaman (M.A. Librarianship, University of Sheffield)

P.S. Just to add my add my own voice to the SF/sci-fi/skiffy debate. 
I personally feel that anyone using the latter two terms should be 
summarily executed. Maybe I'm being snobbish, but (despite their 
fannish origins) they've always struck me as representing the worst 
excesses of media ignorance about the genre and an easy excuse not to 
treat it with the seriousness it deserves. Give it a silly name and 
you can demean it as much as you want.



**********************************************************
"Literature is a luxury;         Andrew Seaman
fiction a necessity"             c/o University of Sheffield
                                 Dept. of Information Studies
                                 Portobello Court     
G.K. Chesterton                  Sheffield
                                 [log in to unmask] 

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 06:26:17 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi,  etc.
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 11:17:33 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "jdree" at May 3, 95 07:46:49 am
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In the last mail jdree said:
> 
> Before putting this whole line of discussion aside (as I hope we will in
> the near future) 
so do I: I'm sorry to bring this up again!

the topic that "Signifying Nothing" and "Stephanie Hall"
> are discussing "smells" dangeriously close to the "Political Correctness"
> issues that have always bothered me.  There are words in the English
> Language that historically put-down, demean, or otherwise offend others.
> The "rest" of the language is subject to the interpretations of those who
> encounter it.  By "beigeing" language, we come dangerously close to
> censorship.  The colorful metaphors I choose to use to describe myself
> never will, or should, be used to describe any others of my race, color,
> creed, sex, sexual orientation yadda, yadda, yadda.  I am also sick and
> tired of someone else deciding what label I will and will not use.  If I
> choose to label myself a "Trekkie", I am not implying or stating that
> anyone else needs to also be so labeled.  

true, and in general I agree with what you're saying. But also, in general,
you don't call yourself a trekkie, other people do that because they think
that you're an inadequate weirdo who hasn't got a life. If by reclaiming the 
word Trekkie you're making a statement about your relation with people who
use it as a perjorative term (as rap artists like Niggers With Attitude have
been doing), fine. But the term science fiction - let's spell it out and be
proud of it - has been demeaned for so long by people who dismiss it as
"mere" sci-fi that when I see or hear the term in everyday use I get the same
feeling as I do when I hear someone talking about, say Ghost stories as "spook stuff",
or detective stories as "cops and robbers". Let's get this into perspective: I
don't think referring to Philip K Dick as sci-fi is the same thing as using
an insulting racial epithet. And you can easily accuse me of elistism and 
snobbery ("WE read SF not like those nasty common sci-fi readers!") which is
not what I want to get across at all. But part of what I do is try to explain
to people that science fiction is - wait for it for the elitist again- a 
serious body of work in both literary and conceptual terms, and I find that 
the images of "sci-fi" get in the way.

So talking to non-SF readers I NEVER use "sci-fi".  Within the field it depends
who I'm talking to and in what context, but you'll certainly find me at times
in deep discussion about the rilly triffic skiffy of Doc Smith and his
contemporaries.



Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library
The University of Liverpool
051-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 06:41:25 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: STF
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 11:35:07 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "[log in to unmask]" at May 3, 95 01:33:51 pm
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In the last mail [log in to unmask] said:
> 
> Well, to muddy the waters further, the traditional abbreviation for
> science fiction is "stf", pronounced "stiff", and derived from Hugo
> Gernsback's "scientifiction". It's still used in a lot of the more
> tradition-conscious fanzines.
> 
> -- Mike Resnick
> 
I was rather hoping no-one would remember this. It could lead us into
all sorts of smutty puns . . .

Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library
The University of Liverpool
051-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 07:01:16 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 07:01:15 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Enemy Mine

This goes along the Longyear thread,
If your a fan of Barrys work his sequel to Infinity Hold is finally being
published in Absolute Magnitude Magazine.
Apologies in advance if this was brought up before I signed onto this list.

Phil Merkel
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 07:11:40 1995
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Date:         Thu, 04 May 95 12:03:16 BST
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject:      Re: Photocopying
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Wed, 3 May 1995 07:24:20 -0400


I didn't think that second hand books or magazines produced royalties for autho

s. The fact that Life During Wartime is now out of print in this country indica
tes that Lucius is no longer earning in this country from that book. Any copy I
 do find (and I have been looking for a long time) will not earn mr Shepard any
 royalties. Better than a photocopy would be the details of when and where the
novella R & R was printed, so that I could then zip out to the Andromeda SF boo
kshop here in birmingham to see if they had it. Anyone know any more than the t
itle?
On a slightly different note, Tom Maddox's novel HALO is available free on the
WWW (I have the address if anyone wants it). It too is out of print in the UK,
but Tom MAddox has generously allowed it for anyone willing to waste an hour tr
ying to download it.
As to folks on this list knowing better than to photocopy things. Sorry if I do
 not live up to your standards, but given a choice between not reading a text a
nd finding a photocopy to read, I'll take the photocopy. If the book was in pri
nt then I would gladly buy it.
Jonathan Laidlow


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 07:30:45 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF/Sci Fi in the UK
Date: Thu, 04 May 95 10:49:00 BST
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>Well, to muddy the waters further, the traditional abbreviation for
>science fiction is "stf", pronounced "stiff", and derived from Hugo
>Gernsback's "scientifiction". It's still used in a lot of the more
>tradition-conscious fanzines.


Now there's something I've never heard of - thanks.  As a part-time 
linguist/philologist I'm interested in the development and growth of words, 
which over time obviously tends to be the result of the various habits of 
various communities.  This is a good one, though I'm surprised that I don't 
remember seeing it before.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 07:31:01 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi, etc.etc.etc...
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>        I have been avoiding commenting on this subject for a while.
>Julie's above comment just about sums it up for me.  In the "politically
>correct" world that we all seem to be sharing, we argue over silly little
>points in terminology.  Just because someone uses a different word to
>describe something, doesn't mean that someone doesn't enjoy the
>aforementioned something.


I agree wholeheartedly.  Personally, my interest here is simply in the 
resonances of the various terms.  As an amateur linguist and amateur critic 
(among other things) I am strongly conscious that stylistically they have 
different spins on them, largely as a result of tradition whether it's 
overtly recognised or not and in any case depending on context:  there 
really isn't any such thing as a perfect synonym.  The PC angle I hadn't 
thought of in this area, but I guess that's there as well now that you 
mention it.  On the other hand there are phonological considerations, not to 
mention the fact that SF is probably the easiest to type, etc, etc....  I 
don't think anyone here is setting out particularly to be any sort of PC 
nazi over this, but it's interesting to me that while no-one in this 
discussion seems to care terribly strongly about their own or others' usage 
 - or rather no-one seems particularly keen to differentiate them to the 
extent of forcing their own on anyone else - people do seem more or less 
agreed on the /kind/ of relationship between the terms.  That's culture for 
you.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 07:31:57 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi, etc.etc.etc...
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>I thought the point of the discussion was that, for whatever reason, and
>whether you agree or not, 90% or more of the pro community finds "sci-fi"
>an offensive term, and now that you all know it, why would you use it
>around people who feel that way and have never done you any harm?
>
>-- Mike Resnick


An eloquent plea, but what do we then make of the twin facts that there are 
presumably several times more non-pros than pros, and that, going with 
Rick's (I think) stats, a good two-thirds of them are liable to use exactly 
the offending term as a matter of routine?  What about proportional 
representation, eh?

I really can't remember how and when I first came to dislike 
(hypocritically, of course) the term "sci-fi".  I recall regarding it as a 
trivialising and potentially dismissive, value-loaded term while still at 
school, without any real consciousnes of fandom and its traditions, and long 
before I had any chance to become the pro that I have persisted in not 
being.  Still, I think it has its place - although that place is clearly 
NOT, ideally, in Mike Resnick's hearing.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 08:36:37 1995
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Resent-From: "Andrew Wheeler, Doubleday Book Clubs" <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: re: Shepard's THE GOLDEN

Forwarded to:      internet@in1@servers[[log in to unmask]]
          cc:      
Comments by:       Andy Wheeler@SpecClubs@DoubledayNY

   -------------------------- [Original Message] -------------------------      
Though it didn't click when I read THE GOLDEN myself a few years ago, the 
description quoted by (oh, let's just say markw, since we're attributing 
everything to him anyway) is strongly reminiscent of Gormenghast, the castle 
in a trilogy written by Mervyn Peake.

The three books are TITUS GROAN, GORMENGHAST and TITUS ALONE. The first two 
are really wonderful Gothic (20th Century) evocations of this immense city-
sized castle that's been in existence since practically the dawn of time. The 
characters (aside from the setting, which itself is practically a character) 
are memorably odd, with Dickensian names like Steerpike. I'd recommend the 
whole series highly, though the third book (written while the author was 
slowly dying) isn't as good or long and isn't set in Gormenghast.

Shepard was probably trying to evoke Gormenghast with Castle Banat; it's 
fairly well known among fans of weird fantasy.

Another similar castle appears in Michael Moorcock's GLORIANA (another 
wonderful novel, and something of a homage to Peake).

Andy Wheeler

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 09:39:42 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]@lkpsun.lkp.ifsab.se
Subject: Re: Photocopying
X-Vms-To: SMTP%"[log in to unmask]@lkpsun"

> ... given a choice between not reading a text and finding a photocopy
> to read, I'll take the photocopy.

So would I. And chances are very good that I would buy a "real" copy
of the text in question when I found it later even though I had already
read it. I get a slightly uneasy feeling by having read things that I
don't have in my bookshelf to look back upon (and yes, my bookshelf is
getting crowded with amazing speed).

/ Hans

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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 15:32:40 +0200
To: [log in to unmask]@lkpsun.lkp.ifsab.se
Subject: Halo
X-Vms-To: SMTP%"[log in to unmask]@lkpsun"

Jonathan Laidlow mentioned that Tom Maddox' _Halo_ was available somewhere
on the net. I would be interested in knowing just where, so I can try to
get a copy.

/ Hans

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 09:45:00 1995
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From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: The Golden Gormenghast
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 ->
 -> Though it didn't click when I read THE GOLDEN myself a few years ago, the 

 -> description quoted by (oh, let's just say markw, since we're attributing
 -> everything to him anyway) is strongly reminiscent of Gormenghast, the 
castle
 -> in a trilogy written by Mervyn Peake.
 ->

When I first picked up The Golden, (thanks only to it's eye catching cover - 
I seldom linger at horror shelves), and opened  the fold-out cover that 
depicts castle Banat I immediately thought Gormenghast.  The storytelling, 
for me, is nowhere near as good as the Gormenghast books, (at least the 
first two), but it is still a good yarn and the immenseness of castle Banat 
pervades and leaves a lasting sense of awe about the place.
I love Mervyn Peake's illustrations as well as his writings, especially 
those in Titus Alone and his Alice characters.  A rare(?) example of an 
artist/author.
Oh dear I have strayed from SFsci-fistfskiffy.

markw - the oft quoted

"Real eyes realise real lies"

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 09:54:04 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 09:53:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Photocopying
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask] 
 
I can very well conceive of a situation where it is incredibly easier to 
make a photocopy than to somehow buy an out of print SF 
title, and I can even show sympathy to those tempted to do it since 
getting your hands on out of print titles here in Montreal is a terrible 
pain compared to other North American cities.  With the slow exodus of 
the english from the city, droves of english language bookstores have closed.

However, the same arguments that the anti-fur (anti-hunting or whatever) 
lobby uses against buying and wearing "already dead" fur coats (or other  
clothing) apply as strongly and rationally in favor of buying used SF 
titles or even reading said works by getting them in a library or through 
inter-library loan.  And not making photocopies of course.

If you buy a used SF title the money will not be going directly to the 
particular publisher and hence to the particular author you are 
reading, but it will be put in the commercial pipeline ending eventually 
in some author's purse, just like buying an "already dead" animal fur coat 
will lower the store's inventory, which will provoke an eventual demand
for more coats and be the prime factor why a hunter will go out next year 
to set some horrible traps or club some more baby seals before skinning 
them mercilessly.

When you buy a used SF title you are not only putting some money in the 
store's till, (which in turn puts money in the hands of the reader who 
buys books new and sells them when used, which in turn gives more finds 
for the reader next time he/she buys a new book, which then means the new 
book pipeline is fed, leading to the author's purse) but you are 
expressing a preference for SF titles and encouraging that store to buy 
more of the same.

There is a similar argument for reading out-of-print SF books in libraries 
(directly or through inter-library loan) and _not_ making photocopies of 
them.  In most libraries there is a count kept of what books are read most 
often, either by a series of old-fashioned manual methods or by 
subpograms inthe library computers controling circulation.  If you take 
the SF title out each time you want to read it, you are "voting" for a 
particular author or for SF in general each time, because the librarian 
doing "collections development" (what normal people call choosing and 
buying books, but by batch) will see that the SF title (or titles if 
there is the means to make summaries by genre) is read a lot and order 
more by the same author or same publisher next time around.

A similar process occurs if you read a book on the web or get it through 
an FTP or other process:  The demand for it is counted by the system where 
it was (legally) installed.

Again, I have great sympathy for all of those who have problems getting 
access to out-of-print SF titles since I have monster ones myself.

But keep away fom the photocopy machine!

By using it on SF titles you are not only depriving the book market, and,
eventually, the authors of the money they should get for the very long 
hours they put in, you are also silencing any "vote" for SF as a genre.

Au revoir!


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 10:16:50 1995
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Resent-To: multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Date:         Thu, 04 May 95 09:27:40 EDT
Apparently-To: <[log in to unmask]>

Joan and Brenda: here's the info you requested:

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
SF AUTHOR CONTACTS:

Aaron Allston        [log in to unmask]
Don D'Ammassa        [log in to unmask]
John Clute           [log in to unmask]
Diane Duane          [log in to unmask]
George Effinger      [log in to unmask]
Jack (Jay) Haldeman  [log in to unmask] (this is not confirmed)
Rob Hansen           [log in to unmask]
Crawford Kilian      [log in to unmask]
Dave Langford         [log in to unmask]
James Luceno         [log in to unmask]
Mike P. Kube-McDowell [log in to unmask]
Rob Meades           [log in to unmask]
Vonda McIntyre       [log in to unmask]
Peter Morwood        [log in to unmask]
Patrick N. Hayden    [log in to unmask]
Charles Platt        [log in to unmask]
Chris Priest         [log in to unmask]
David Pringle        [log in to unmask]
Mike Resnick         [log in to unmask]
Alan Rodgers         [log in to unmask]
Kristine Kathryn Rusch  [log in to unmask]
Brad Strickland      [log in to unmask]
Jane Yolen           [log in to unmask]
David Wake           [log in to unmask]

MAGAZINES:

Isaac Asimov/ANALOG  [log in to unmask]
Locus                [log in to unmask]
Science Fiction Chronicle  [log in to unmask]


I have several foreign contacts in Germany, France, the Netherlands,
and Australia (Lucy Sussex) if anyone wants them.
                                                  - SEAN -

P.S. any questions?

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 10:51:48 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 21:50:56 +0700 (TST)
From: Robert Horley <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Photocopying
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Thu, 4 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> > ... given a choice between not reading a text and finding a photocopy
> > to read, I'll take the photocopy.

Hi,

I tend to agree with this.  One suggestion I would give would be for 
authors to put out of print works on the net, insuring that their 
copyright was placed right at the front of the document.  One could also 
do like people do with shareware and ask people specifically not to pass 
it on, and also to pay a royalty if the finish reading it and enjoyed 
it...It works with software, and some people are making far more money 
than they would through regular copyright and siphoning off by the 
publisher.

The whole printing industry is geared to quick turnover now, and out of 
print works never seem to see the light of day.  Also piracy on the net 
and by photocopying is going to get worse not better, so maybe it's best 
to go with the flow and try to make the best of it.  I would also suggest 
that new authors try to ensure that the copyright will return to them 
within a fixed number of years of the last printing.

Robert Horley
Phanat Nikhom, Thailand


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 10:54:30 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 10:54:29 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Asking After a Favorite Author

I'm trying to remember the name of the person who wrote the "White Mountains"
series of books, a British SF series about the Earth after a race of aliens
took over and forced everyone to wear mind-control devices after their 12th
birthday (I think it was that age). I read these in sixth grade and was
properly impressed. The first book was a class assignment, the other two were
given me independently by the teacher when she saw my love for the first. I'd
also like to know what else this person wrote, so I can look it up.

Many thanks,
Brenda

From cstu  Thu May  4 11:28:52 1995
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From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Camille Bacon-Smith: Re: Engines of the Night
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Date:         Thu, 04 May 95 11:04:03 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Engines of the Night

Jessica--it is really, really, really hard to sell anything that is
"different" in any part of publishing, or tv/movie industry, for that
matter.  When "they" say they want something different, they mean
they want something like what they published yesterday, but with a
slight change so readers think they've got a new book in their hands.

Of course, if you've written a bunch of stuff that sold like Hershey
Bars, you can be a bit experimental, but just once in a while.  Cause,
when you stop selling big, they stop buying.  I am sure I will get a lot
of resistence to this from the folks that sell on this list, and I am not
speaking out of rancour--I did finally sell my book.  It is an obervation
after studying the field up close for about 15 years.

Camille Bacon-Smith
who studies the people as well as the books.


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 11:17:19 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 08:00:36 -0700
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Aldiss-Hellconia
To: [log in to unmask]
X-Mailer: AIR Mail 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)

I just bought a full orginal hard back set of Hellconia by B. Aldiss. Now that 
I have the trilogy, I have extra hard back of Hellconia Spring, only, for 
sale. This is in excellent condition and 1st edition of British publisher 
Jonathan Cape of 1982. I paid $12.50 several years ago for this book. Anyone 
interested. I need to keep space in my library and the reason for my sell of 
this duplicate edition.

Joe de Beachamp
Seattle, Washington
[log in to unmask]


From shal  Thu May  4 11:18:26 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 11:18:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Stephanie A. Hall" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi, etc.etc.etc...
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Wed, 3 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> I thought the point of the discussion was that, for whatever reason, and
> whether you agree or not, 90% or more of the pro community finds "sci-fi"
> an offensive term, and now that you all know it, why would you use it
> around people who feel that way and have never done you any harm?
> 
> -- Mike Resnick

Yes, well, the insistance of distributors of SF film and television on 
using a term that is both offensive to a core group of their targed 
audience and connotes a product of inferior quality does seem to me to 
be a very odd marketing strategy. 

Stephanie

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist           The Library of Congress
American Folklife Center               preserves and houses
Library of Congress                    countless ideas and opinions.
Washington, DC 20540-8100              Those expressed here 
[log in to unmask]                           are my own.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 11:25:28 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 95 11:22:54 edt
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask], (Marcus C Sarofim) [log in to unmask]
Subject: Reply to: 

CEO comments:
From: Mark Stackpole:CEO
Date: ## 05/04/95 11:23 ##
Re: MIT's collection of SF materials.  I have been looking for quite 
a while the Hugo award winning collection/chapbook "Who Killed 
Science Fiction." I believe it won the award for best fan writing in 
1961 or 1960. The collection at UC Riverside of SF material doesn't 
have an entry in the card catalog, nor is there a listing in OCLC's 
Union List of books (32 Million & growing).
I'm begining to wonder if "Who Killed..." was not published 
separately, but was part of the regular run of some fanzie. Does 
anybody have this item, or can give a citation to it. (I also checked 
LC's catalog as well).
Mark Stackpole

Preceeding Message:
From: (Marcus C Sarofim) [log in to unmask]:smtp
Date: ## 05/04/95 07:25 ##
See document for message.




From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 11:28:25 1995
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Date:         Thu, 04 May 95 11:20:57 EDT
From: Sean Alan Wallace <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: From Alain Vaillancourt: Re: Photocopying
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 4 May 1995 11:12:38 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]>

Alain:

>Again, I have great sympathy for all of those who have problems getting
>access to out-of-print SF titles since I have monster ones myself.
>
>But keep away fom the photocopy machine!

Does this apply to photcopying short stories, Al?  In my experience, when
I am doing research, I often utilize the InterLibrary Loan Service in ordering
hundreds of short stories from magazines otherwise unavailable to
any means I might use. for example: AMAZING STORIES, NEW WORLDS, even fanzines
that are unavailable to the general public. While, yes, I deplore NOT having
a personal copy of the magazine, financial reasons demand that you must
get a photocopy. After all, you cannot spend a thousand dollars on a complete
run of AMAZING STORIES.  Whether or not this actually applies to books, which
more often than not, are seriously out-of-print and out of your means to
buy a copy, then what course are you left to take?  You do not stand
over a book and say, "Dear god, I shouldn't photocopy this. I might affect
the general market." That's not reality. Reality is, in terms of research, is
that you try to get books/short stories/research any way possible, whether
through photocopying or not.

Hmmmmm....any one want to flame me now ;-)
                                                 - Sean -

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 11:31:38 1995
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Date:         Thu, 04 May 95 11:26:51 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: From Alain Vaillancourt: Re: Photocopying
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 4 May 1995 11:12:35 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]>

Jonathan--please send me your snail mail address.  I have a photocopy of
R & R for which royalties HAVE BEEN PAID!  It is part of a bulk-pack of
readings I used for a sf class I taught, and royalties were paid through
the clearing house system my copy-shop uses since the great Kinkos
law suit.  Since I paid both the royalties and the copy-cost, I can
gift you the copy with a clear conscience!  (Right, George?)

By the way, I once wanted to teach BALLAD OF BETA 2 but it was out of
print.  I called the pub, who referred me to the lawyers, who said,
"We don't know and you didn't ask."  My how times have changed!
[log in to unmask]

From cstu  Thu May  4 11:52:12 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 11:52:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Personal messages
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Please!  We have been getting a spate of messages aimed at one person 
only; when you want to talk to that person, please, please, please, send 
the mail to them directly.  You have my humblest thanks when you do. :-)
Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 11:37:38 1995
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Date:         Thu, 04 May 95 11:37:12 EDT
From: Sean Alan Wallace <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Asking After a Favorite Author
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 4 May 1995 11:25:10 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]>

YES! YES!  I got it, I got it!  do i get a prize for remembering ;-)

The bloke's name is John Christopher - he's English. He's written four
books in the Tripod series, the latest (1988) a prequel. Ha, ha, I got
it.

                                 - Sean -

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 11:43:34 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 95 11:38:08 edt
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Forwarded: Re: Forwarded: Re: Johnny Mnemonic

CEO comments:
From: Mark Stackpole:CEO
Date: ## 05/04/95 11:38 ##
I guess. Terry Bisson -- of whom I read "Fire on the Mountain" and 
that trifle about movie makers on Mars -- is not somebody I would 
class as a cyberpunk. In fact, going by Michael Swanwick's "Reader's 
Guide..." he published in Asimov's a decade ago, I would shove Bisson 
into the Robinson/Shepard Humanist camp. 
But he is also a professional writer and money is money. Remember, 
both Effinger and Pournelle did novelizations of Planet of the Apes 
movies. (Alan Dean Foster hasn't cornered the market yet on prose 
versions of films).
Mark Stackpole
 

Message:
From: @loc.gov,@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]:smtp
Date: ## 05/04/95 07:39 ##
Mark Stackpole--about your answer to my comments about novelization
of Johnny Mnemonic--you did mean to prove my point, didn't you?

Camille


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 11:45:28 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 95 11:43:22 edt
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Forwarded: Re: Enemy Mine

CEO comments:
From: Mark Stackpole:CEO
Date: ## 05/04/95 11:44 ##
Was the sequel to "Infinity Hold" rejected by Questar (and isn't that 
line of SF defunct anyway?)? Will this be the only publication of 
this novel, or has it been picked up by another publisher? And what 
is the status of "First Kill All the Lawyers"?
Questions, questions.
 

Message:
From: [log in to unmask]:smtp
Date: ## 05/04/95 08:34 ##
This goes along the Longyear thread,
If your a fan of Barrys work his sequel to Infinity Hold is finally being
published in Absolute Magnitude Magazine.
Apologies in advance if this was brought up before I signed onto this list.

Phil Merkel
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 11:50:21 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 11:50:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Asking After a Favorite Author

The books are;
	"the White Mountains"
	"The City of Gold and Lead"
	"The Pool of Fire"
and the prequel: "When the Tripods Came"
	by John Christopher.  I loved this series but have only read the
trilogy and seen the series.

Patty Silva
[log in to unmask]
8-0
8-)

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 11:50:21 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 11:50:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Asking After a Favorite Author

The books are;
	"the White Mountains"
	"The City of Gold and Lead"
	"The Pool of Fire"
and the prequel: "When the Tripods Came"
	by John Christopher.  I loved this series but have only read the
trilogy and seen the series.

Patty Silva
[log in to unmask]
8-0
8-)
From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 11:50:56 1995
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Date: 	Thu, 4 May 1995 11:49:23 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: WorldBuilding URL

     In case anyone's interested, here's the URL for WorldBuilding 101, an 
     SF story/graphics project run on eWorld (I have no connection to eW; a 
     friend of mine contributed) --
     
     <http://www.amug.org/newton/nanug/BioPages/MarkU/wb101/WB101_Barnard.h
     tml>
     
     Best,
     Andy
     [log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 11:53:15 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Asking After a Favorite Author

John Christopher also wrote:
	The Prince in Waiting
	Beyond the Burning Lands
	The sword of the Sprits		(Sword of the Spirits Trilogy)

	The Lotus caves
	The Guardians
I haven't read any of these, yet 8-)

Patty Silva
[log in to unmask]
8-)

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 11:55:09 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Forwarded: Halo

CEO comments:
From: Mark Stackpole:CEO
Date: ## 05/04/95 11:51 ##
Point your Gopher server to gopher.well.sf.ca.us and under the 
writings/individual authors listings, Tom Maddox's "Halo" -- along 
with his computer writings for Locus  -- are stored.
Mark Stackpole
 

Message:
From: [log in to unmask]:smtp
Date: ## 05/04/95 10:44 ##
Jonathan Laidlow mentioned that Tom Maddox' _Halo_ was available somewhere
on the net. I would be interested in knowing just where, so I can try to
get a copy.

/ Hans


From @CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 11:58:05 1995
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Date:         Thu, 04 May 95 10:08:58 EST
From: Doug Kuiper <@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Neal Stephenson/Language
To: [log in to unmask]

Another Lurker timidly steps into the circle :).  Someone (overeager delete
on my part) was asking for information on Neal Stephenson works.  I reccomend
The Diamond Age, or, A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer.  This book centers
around issues such as continuity of culture in the face of economic and
technological change/progress with a good dash of nature vs. nurture thrown
in.  It is a book I will read again, which is the highest recommendation I
can give.

On a somewhat more dangerous subject, several people have mentioned using
the notation SF out of respect/politeness.  I can agree with this whole-
heartedly.  However, perhaps to those not familiar with the field, this would
seem a bit like a control issue.  In other words, if you don't use the
secret password, you can be in the tree, but not the clubhouse.  In the end
though, I believe politeness and respect would indicate that we address
people in a manner which makes them comfortable.

-Doug Kuiper

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 12:18:07 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Introit
To: [log in to unmask]
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I would love to come to Marcon, if for no other reason than to cut
off your hand and maybe your tongue, but a) I'm pushing up against
a deadline and have to finish a novel this weekend, and b) the idiots
scheduled it on Kentucky Derby weekend.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 12:20:14 1995
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Date: Thu, 04 May 1995 12:20:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Mike Resnick: 1995 Hugo Ballot
To: [log in to unmask]
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Actually, I am told that there -is- an ALTERNATE RESNICKS in the works.
It's being put out by Chuq von Rospach, whose fanzine, Other Realms, has
been nominated for a Hugo or two, and it is said to contain more than
100 pages of embarrassing and humiliating parodies of my work. I can
<yawn> hardly wait.  <g>

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 12:27:54 1995
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Date: Thu, 04 May 1995 12:27:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF/Sci Fi in the UK
To: [log in to unmask]
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Are you aware of all the books that have been written about sf culture?
If there are any you need to borrow, I'd be happy to lend you some.
Just off the top of my head, there's AH! SWEET IDIOCY; FANCYCLOPEDIA II;
THE EIGHTH STAGE OF FANDOM and OUT OF MY HEAD by Robert Bloch; FANDOM
HARVEST by Terry Carr; THE IMMORTAL STORM by Sam Moskowitz; ALL OUR
YESTERDAYS and A WEALTH OF FABLE by Harry Warner; UP TO NOW, by Jack
Speer; THE FUTURIANS by Damon Knight; IN AND OUT OF QUANDRY by Lee
Hoffman; MESSAGES FOUND IN AN OXYGEN BOTTLE and THE EASTERCON SPEECHES
by Bob Shaw; BETWEEN TWO WORLDS by Terry Carr; THE CHICON III PROCEEDINGS;
THE DISCON I PROCEEDINGS; THE NOREASCON I PROCEEDINGS; -- and those are
just off the top of my head. I know I've got dozens more.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 12:28:35 1995
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From: "Brian Attebery" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization:  Idaho State University
To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Thu, 4 May 1995 10:30:53 MST
Subject:       Re: SF/Sci Fi in the UK
Priority: normal
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>

Even worse is the abbreviation "sfnal" (used by the New York Review 
of Science Fiction, among others).  It sounds like somebody with a 
sinus infection.

Brian Attebery ([log in to unmask]) 


> 
> The one thing I hate about using sf in print is figuring out which article
> to use in front of it--is it "a" sf story, figuring the person will see the
> abbreviation but say the words, or is it "an" sf story, because the pronounced
> spelling is esseff?  Sounds silly, until you try to write a book about SF
> Culture!
> 
> Camille
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 12:31:08 1995
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Date: Thu, 04 May 1995 12:31:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Engines of the Night
To: [log in to unmask]
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Malzberg is probably my closest friend in the field, and I think
some of the essays in ENGINES OF THE NIGHT are brilliant. But I disagree
with a number of them. They hold true for Barry, who has a love-hate
relationship with the field and feels it did him dirt, but they are not
true for many of the practitioners who earn a substantial living and
enjoy what they do and the interaction with fans and pros.

As for Harlan's article, it's a crock. For two or three years after
it appeared, my standard Guest of Honor speech was to answer it on
behalf of the silent majority of writers who enjoyed conventions and
fandom. If you want me to be more explicit, I will.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 12:32:17 1995
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Date: Thu, 04 May 1995 12:32:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Mike Resnick: 1995 Hugo Ballot
To: [log in to unmask]
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I think she's back from Japan. I'm pretty sure I was introduced to
her at the Nebulas two weeks ago.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 12:38:30 1995
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Date: Thu, 04 May 1995 12:38:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi, etc.etc.etc...
To: [log in to unmask]
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"What about proportional representation, eh?"

A very good question. But it does rather imply that it's ok to use
the word "nigger" in a crowd that's 80% white and 20% black, and only
wrong when the black section hits 51%. 

You now know beyond any shadow of a doubt that if you use "sci-fi" online,
SOMEone is going to find it offensive. Do what you feel you have to do.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 12:46:36 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 11:46:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: "John J. Ronald" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Kurd Lasswitz?
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Has anyone on this list read Kurd Lasswitz's novel
_Auf Zwei Planeten_ (or in translation "On Two Planets") ??
If so, what were your impressions?  I have to read that
book this summer and would perhaps like to discuss it
with others who have read it.  Thanks!

--John Ronald
	Rice University
	Dept. of German & Slavic Studies

e-mail: [log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 12:53:09 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 12:52:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. S**-F*, etc.etc.etc...
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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3 good reasons to use SF instead of other terms:


1. Let's not be beastly with the authors.

Now that we know that 90% are somewhat irked by the use of something else, 
there is no point in continuing to do so, unless you positively _must_ be 
cruel to them.  And if you must be cruel, surely you can find something 
more imaginative than using these six little characters over and over again. 
Do flog them with their clannish ways, their ego, their etc., instead.


2. SF can stand for Science Fiction or Speculative Fiction.

Most convenient.  Two terms for the price of one.  And that way we can 
avoid any controversies over which is better as a term: science fiction or 
speculative fiction. 


3. SF is much easier and faster to punch out on terrible keyboards.

Faster to punch just anywhere.  And easier to correct too, when you so 
lovingly proofread an e-mail message before sending it out to a listserv 
or a newsgroup.


Au revoir!

DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask] 


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 12:53:41 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 11:53:28 -0500
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
To: "[log in to unmask]"@ssc.wisc.edu
Subject: Too many messages


Is there any way to keep down the personal messages.  Additionally, perhaps
everyone can limit themselves to 2 or 3 messages.  Thanks I am getting
overwhelmed.  Greg

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 13:02:13 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 13:02:13 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF and humor

Here's a new strain. 

What's your favorite SF humor book/short story/movie?

Just asking.

AllGrill

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 13:17:40 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 13:17:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: From Alain Vaillancourt: Re: Photocopying
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Thu, 4 May 1995, Sean Alan Wallace wrote:

> Whether or not this actually applies to books, which
> more often than not, are seriously out-of-print and out of your means to
> buy a copy, then what course are you left to take?  You do not stand
> over a book and say, "Dear god, I shouldn't photocopy this. I might affect
> the general market." That's not reality. Reality is, in terms of research, is
> that you try to get books/short stories/research any way possible, whether
> through photocopying or not.
> 
> Hmmmmm....any one want to flame me now ;-)
>                                                  - Sean -

Actually, I was thinking more of using a very large fire hose.

But seriously, there is more to it than the general market and crass 
lucrative considerations .  The existence of the genre per se is at stake.

Yes, I know, you can sometimes get inter-library documents late, and be 
told, as you gaze at the long awaited pile, that everything has to be 
returned in less than two weeks.

Quite unreasonable! But you should take it out on the inter-library loan 
system, not on the author or his publisher.  Even if the publisher can be 
a thoroughly mean fellow sometimes.

If you rationalize theft of intellectual property and the slow killing of SF 
for the high purpose of Research then you can rationalize a lot more.

Au revoir!

DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask] aa



From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 13:30:15 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 12:30:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: "John J. Ronald" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: SF, Literature, Theory (fwd)
To: [log in to unmask]
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Hello!  Before I start, let me say that, despite being
a literary academic, I *love* Science Fiction, and believe
it is worthy of consideration as "real" literature.
(in fact, despite being a German Lit. person, I am doing
my MA thesis on SF lit. anyway)

But I
do recognize the problematic that SF faces, and I just
wanted to throw an idea out to the forum and see what
reaction I get.

I was just taking a break from reading Thomas Mann's
_Tonio Kroeger_ for one of my graduate seminars tommorow, and
I sat down to scribble in my journal and got to thinking about
Thomas Mann, Gottfried Keller, and all these other "canonical"
authors and their novels about people who want to become
true artists...

Anyhow, after reflecting and scribbling a few pages into my
journal, I examined the irony of a novella like _Tonio Kroeger_,
or a novel like _Der Gruene Heinrich_ (Keller) in which the
hero-protagonist is himself an artist, or at least believes 
himself to be/wants to be, and the works center around their
relationship to life and art, and they try to determine if
they really ARE artists or not.  Now, for whatever reason,
the Literary Canon has crowned both Thomas Mann and 
Gottfried Keller with the mark of "legitimacy" in the
field of literature.

Forgive me if I am becoming to abstract.  Let me get to the point
now.  I came to the tenative conclusion that "Great Works of
Literature" (at least as recognized in the Western Canon)
seldom stand alone.  They depend very much on numerous allusions
and references to OTHER great works of literature;  In the
Western Canon this means first and foremost all the clever
biblical references (which one finds from Medieval Literature
down to the present day), and, next Grecco-Roman Mythology as
laid out by the big-name poets, authors, historians, philosophers,
et. al. of Antiquity.  There has to be this definite "intertextuality",
these references and cross-references in "mainstream" literature
for that work to be considered worthwhile.  Beauty of the
prose itself and clever allusions and cross-references
are the lifeblood of "Great" literary works.  It's no
accident that Goethe's character Werther is found reading
Lessing's _Emilia Galotti_ before he kills himself.  It's
no accident that Kafka's main character in _Der Prozess_,
Josef K, eats an apple in the very opening of the
book (you might miss the significance of this on a first
reading, but afterwords, alarm bells go off in your head
and you immediately realize the relevance of the apple from
the biblical story of the Garden of Eden and humanity's
fall from grace).  Its no accident that Thomas Mann's 
characters often leave Germany and go to Italy in
search of new creativity (Goethe did also, as did Thomas
Mann himself)....

Those SF works that can make this leap and make those allusions,
those references convincingly perhaps (to my mind) will have
a much easier time gaining acceptance than those that do
not.  I guess because, although mainstream literature creates
fictional worlds as well, those fictional worlds are modeled
after THIS one, and can thusly be more easily linked together
than can SF works that have to create entire universes with
their own special natural laws, histories, and realities.
Having Spock read the Star Wars trilogy isn't going to
work, but having him read Plato (and then comment how
this relates to some Vulcan philosopher)...this DOES work.
  
SF works, if written by different authors, can't seem to
refer to each other nearly as easily as more mainstream
literature is capable of doing.  SF texts frequently
HAVE to stand alone (or at least, more alone) than
mainstream literature does, meaning SF has quite an
uphill fight for acceptance into the literary canon.
I find it to be a rather innovative, revolutionary genre
that deserves consideration by Academics sheerly on
the basis of its own merits, but this is tough for
many more conservative, more traditional academics to
accept.

A good friend of mine, also a Germanist like me, also
a huge fan of SF films, books, series, etc. suggested
that (to him at least), much of SF Literature suffers
from what he termed the "Kilgore Trout Syndrome" (after
Vonnegut's recurring SF author character who serves as
a fictional alter-ego to the author Vonnegut himself...
.indeed, very much a self-parody)---Namely, there are
really neat, whacked-out, revolutionary ideas handled
in the field of SF, but so often the prose itself is
so bloody awful, so inelegant, that it is hard to
really enjoy reading it.  My friend did list some
SF works by Pohl, Brin, and others, that he felt
were an exception insofar as the authors paid attention
to the aesthetics of their prose itself and worked that
into the creation of their novels.  This, for him, was
"truly great" science fiction.  Interesting theory, but
it belongs, as I said, to a friend, not to me.

Anyhow, all these thoughts came to me after a few diet
Cokes and page after page of scribbling in my journal,
and I had to present them to SOMEONE before I promptly
forget them again.

Comments?  Thoughts?  Suggeststions?  
I apologize to those of you who have seen this
post already on Morgan Botrell's SF-LIST...I just
wanted to see if I get the same sort of fruitful
reaction on this list as well.

---John Ronald
	Rice University
	Dept. of German & Slavic Studies
	Houston, Texas

e-mail:  [log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 15:09:50 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 12:13:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: ESPANA <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Fen, Cons, etc
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 07:20:26 -0400
From: Marcus C Sarofim <[log in to unmask]> 

:A couple of things have been mentioned about "fans" and "mundanes".
:I would like to point out the large group of people in between - those
:who have little contact with cons and pros, (amazingly enough, pun not
:intended) but have read voraciously as much SF as they can get their 
:hands on. 

:I am currently President of one organization (the MIT Science Fiction
:Society) whose motto is "We're not fans - we just read the stuff". 
:While that doesn't apply to all of our members, it does apply to a 
:large percentage of them, many of whom spend most of their waking,
:non-studying hours reading sf. Many of whom would object to being
:classified as fan or mundane.

	Up until now I hadnt really realised that fandom refered only to 
sf readers who attended conventions. I have only been to two cons so far 
(plus BayCon later this month) but have been reading sf since I was about 
9. Since I grew up in Spain where there is little fannish activity (none 
where I lived) I wasn't even aware of the term until I moved to San 
Francisco almost three tears ago. Since my financial situation is pretty 
much non-existent I cant afford to go to cons most of the time. Still I 
definitely consider myself a fan and will continue to call myself one 
wether I get to go to cons or not. Maybe I'm just a fan in spirit rather 
that fact?

--
Espana N. Sheriff                               "It ain't so much"
[log in to unmask]                                      BILLY THE KID
http://www.Catch22.COM/~espana


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 15:35:18 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: Asking After a Favorite Author (Christopher)
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu,  4 May 95 12:28:36 PDT
Message-Id: <9505041928.24685C@martinw>
X-Mailer: SelectMAIL 1.2

In response to Brenda ([log in to unmask]), Patty Silva 
([log in to unmask]) wrote:

|John Christopher also wrote:
|	The Prince in Waiting
|	Beyond the Burning Lands
|	The sword of the Sprits		(Sword of the Spirits Trilogy)
|
|	The Lotus caves
|	The Guardians
|I haven't read any of these, yet 8-)

The first three Tripods books were (and continue to be) favorites of 
mine; I've also read The Lotus Caves and The Guardians.  I heartily 
recommend The Lotus Caves (even for the a-dults), especially if, like 
me, you re-visit books like Christopher's works and the Narnia series. 
 I possess the Tripods prequel and the Sword of the Spirits Trilogy, 
but (alas), they remain towards the lower half of the Great Unread 
Stack.  Anyone have any thoughts on these?

-Martin S. Won


From cstu  Thu May  4 18:06:10 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 18:06:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF and humor
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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My favority humor books are more fantasy.  When I am blue, I re-read 
_Bored of the Rings_ and it makes my day.  Also, I loved _The Princess Bride_
Colleen
_________________________________________________________________________
Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian    [log in to unmask]
Library of Congress                                  (202) 707-4132
Washington, DC 20540-4861                       FAX: (202) 707-4142
These opinions are mine, Mine MINE!       
__________________________________________________________________________



On Thu, 4 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Here's a new strain. 
> 
> What's your favorite SF humor book/short story/movie?
> 
> Just asking.
> 
> AllGrill
> 


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 16:49:08 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 16:49:07 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: supernatural animals

Dear Fiona,

How about King of the Grey by Richard Knaak?

It has a ghostly crow who's trying to take over the *real* world.

Dan Baker

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 17:47:58 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 14:45:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe DeRouen <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi, etc.etc.etc...
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On Thu, 4 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> A very good question. But it does rather imply that it's ok to use
> the word "nigger" in a crowd that's 80% white and 20% black, and only
> wrong when the black section hits 51%. 
> 
> You now know beyond any shadow of a doubt that if you use "sci-fi" online,
> SOMEone is going to find it offensive. Do what you feel you have to do.

As circumstances would have it, my very first post to this list is going 
to be disagreeing with someone.  So be it.

The analogy of "nigger" to "sci-fi" is weak.  The former is a degrading 
term used to ridicule and oppress a race of people.  The latter is a term 
used to classify a genre of fiction that (I doubt) anyone really uses to 
ridicule or oppress.

Now, I DO agree that the term "sci-fi" is a silly one.  If I'm going to 
abbreviate Science Fiction, I use "SF".  I agree with that.  

It's just the analogy I disagree with. :)

Joe DeRouen
[log in to unmask]

/-----------------------------------------------------------------\
| Joe DeRouen           [log in to unmask]      Dallas, Texas USA   |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| Joe is a freelance writer with regular columns appearing in the |
| Dallas/Ft. Worth Computer Currents monthly magazine.            |
\-----------------------------------------------------------------/


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 17:49:44 1995
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From: katie auslander <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF and humor
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 17:49:48 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "[log in to unmask]" at May 4, 95 05:41:07 pm
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> 
> Here's a new strain. 
> 
> What's your favorite SF humor book/short story/movie?
> 
> Just asking.
> 
> AllGrill
> 

	I have always found the Xanth novels by Piers Anthony hysterical. 
Just the first ten tho, I can't stand his later works.  
	Heres a question to all those who are knowlegble in the area, a
while back I heard a rumour that Piers Anthony hasen't written the latest
Xanth books.  Is there any substance to this rumour?
			-Katie...:)

From cstu  Thu May  4 18:31:05 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 18:31:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Katie Auslander: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi, etc.etc.etc...
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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From: katie auslander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi, etc.etc.etc...
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 17:57:11 -0400 (EDT)

> 
> "What about proportional representation, eh?"
> 
> A very good question. But it does rather imply that it's ok to use
> the word "nigger" in a crowd that's 80% white and 20% black, and only
> wrong when the black section hits 51%. 

	somehow i really doubt that  the use of the term sci-fi is
tantamount to the word ni--.  that word has at least 200 years of derogatory
conotations behind it.  does "sci-fi" really have all those negative
meanings?  I don't think so.  also, before you stated the fact that 90% of
people  are offended at the term sci-fi. could you please tell me where you
got these statistics?  another person (i am sorry, i can't remember who)
posted quite different numbers a while ago.


		just wondering,
			Katie...:)


> 
> You now know beyond any shadow of a doubt that if you use "sci-fi" online,
> SOMEone is going to find it offensive. Do what you feel you have to do.
> 
> -- Mike Resnick
> 



From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 18:28:10 1995
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Date:         Thu, 04 May 95 18:19:38 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject:      Re: Introit
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 4 May 1995 13:16:37 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

Hi Mike,

I have a little problem: I just received a message from one Jessica
who thoroughly attempted to chastise and chew out me out for the informal
message I sent. I calmly (very calmly) explained to her that the
majority of the messages on this list are INFORMAL, and anything
funny is to be taken lightly. I got the impression from her that
she did not appreciate any of my messages (even though I poked fun
at myself in the second message). Did you have a REAL problem with
my messages?

Anyway, I just wanted to inform you of this. I am forwarding her message to
you - I did not like her tone, and have replied in kind to her. She
attempted to keep this private, however. If anyone has the right to
chastise me, it's you, or either the list moderator. She does not.
                                                       - Sean -

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 18:35:24 1995
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From: Moonbeam <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF and humor
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Thu, 4 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Here's a new strain. 
> 
> What's your favorite SF humor book/short story/movie?

My favorite SF books are the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Trilogy 
(HHGTTG, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe, Life, the Universe 
and Everything, So Long and Thanks For All the Fish, and Mostly Harmless 
- named a five-book trilogy by Douglas Adams himself) and the Red Dwarf 
Books (Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers and Better Than Life, by Grant 
Naylor).

Where else can over-the-top in-your-face humor be so subtle :)

Michelle

*********************                                      ->  Michelle Morrell
Dead as a can of spam                                 ->  [log in to unmask]
*********************                         ->  http://paul.spu.edu/~mmorrell

"In the last lorn fight, 'gainst the fall of long night, the mountains stand 
guard, and the dead shall be ward, for the grave is no bar to my call."

Robert Jordan, The Wheel of Time Series, the inscription on the Horn of Valere


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 18:37:13 1995
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From: "David Lenander" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: The Gormenghastly
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thu, 4 May 95 17:36:55 -0500

Another Gormenghastly book (Well, C.S. Lewis said that Peake had invented a new 
genre, the "Gormenghastly" I believe it was)  is Steve Brust's BROKEDOWN PALACE,
although Brust told me that he'd not read Peake.  Maybe he'd read GLORIANA?


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 18:52:47 1995
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Subject: Ellison and Fans
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 15:52:43 -0700 (PDT)
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Mike Resnick wrote:

As for Harlan's article, it's a crock. For two or three years after it
appeared, my standard Guest of Honor speech was to answer it on behalf of
the silent majority of writers who enjoyed conventions and fandom. If you
want me to be more explicit, I will. 

	I was at the 1984 Westercon in Portland when Harlan Ellison delivered 
his Xenogenesis article. As it happened, I was helping out in the SFWA 
suite that night.
	Writer after writer said something like: "Gee, Harlan shouldn't 
have said that" (long pause). "But I remember...." and then they would 
launch into their own horror story.
	The only exception was John Brunner (nothing seems to upset him).
	Later that night, a fan crashed the suite, and was rude to 
Brunner. If he was the sort of person who remembered such things, he 
would have had his own horror story.

-- 

Bruce Byfield ([log in to unmask])			
English Department, Simon Fraser University
Burnaby, B. C. Canada V5A 1S6 604-291-3136		

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 19:07:55 1995
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From: Tony Hsieh <[log in to unmask]>
To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: SF and humor
Date: Thu, 04 May 95 15:08:00 PDT
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Encoding: 13 TEXT
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On Thu, 4 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Here's a new strain. 
> 
> What's your favorite SF humor book/short story/movie?

For a book or books, I'd definitely put the Hitchhiker series right at the
top.  But for SF humor movie, it would have to be "Bill and Ted's Excellent
Adventure" -- which has the BEST use of time travel ever!  IMHO.

Oh yeah, this also is my first post.
  -- Tony
  [log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 19:41:02 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 16:38:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: From Alain Vaillancourt: Re: Photocopying

Not to mention that "little inconvenience" called copyright infringement. I
hate to sound prissy, but it IS against the law.

JM2$ (because this terminal has no "cents")

Julie
[log in to unmask]
Cataloger of SF & F
Reader when I get the chance


In message Thu, 4 May 1995 11:12:41 -0400,
  Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>  writes:

> Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 09:53:39 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Photocopying
>
>
>
> DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask]
>
> I can very well conceive of a situation where it is incredibly easier to
> make a photocopy than to somehow buy an out of print SF
> title, and I can even show sympathy to those tempted to do it since
> getting your hands on out of print titles here in Montreal is a terrible
> pain compared to other North American cities.  With the slow exodus of
> the english from the city, droves of english language bookstores have
> closed.
> However, the same arguments that the anti-fur (anti-hunting or whatever)
> lobby uses against buying and wearing "already dead" fur coats (or other
> clothing) apply as strongly and rationally in favor of buying used SF
> titles or even reading said works by getting them in a library or through
> inter-library loan.  And not making photocopies of course.
>
> If you buy a used SF title the money will not be going directly to the
> particular publisher and hence to the particular author you are
> reading, but it will be put in the commercial pipeline ending eventually
> in some author's purse, just like buying an "already dead" animal fur coat
> will lower the store's inventory, which will provoke an eventual demand
> for more coats and be the prime factor why a hunter will go out next year
> to set some horrible traps or club some more baby seals before skinning
> them mercilessly.
>
> When you buy a used SF title you are not only putting some money in the
> store's till, (which in turn puts money in the hands of the reader who
> buys books new and sells them when used, which in turn gives more finds
> for the reader next time he/she buys a new book, which then means the new
> book pipeline is fed, leading to the author's purse) but you are
> expressing a preference for SF titles and encouraging that store to buy
> more of the same.
>
> There is a similar argument for reading out-of-print SF books in libraries
> (directly or through inter-library loan) and _not_ making photocopies of
> them.  In most libraries there is a count kept of what books are read most
> often, either by a series of old-fashioned manual methods or by
> subpograms inthe library computers controling circulation.  If you take
> the SF title out each time you want to read it, you are "voting" for a
> particular author or for SF in general each time, because the librarian
> doing "collections development" (what normal people call choosing and
> buying books, but by batch) will see that the SF title (or titles if
> there is the means to make summaries by genre) is read a lot and order
> more by the same author or same publisher next time around.
>
> A similar process occurs if you read a book on the web or get it through
> an FTP or other process:  The demand for it is counted by the system where
> it was (legally) installed.
>
> Again, I have great sympathy for all of those who have problems getting
> access to out-of-print SF titles since I have monster ones myself.
>
> But keep away fom the photocopy machine!
>
> By using it on SF titles you are not only depriving the book market, and,
> eventually, the authors of the money they should get for the very long
> hours they put in, you are also silencing any "vote" for SF as a genre.
>
> Au revoir!
>

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 20:53:13 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 20:53:12 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Katie Auslander: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi, etc.etc.etc...

who cares?  everyone gets so uptight about semantics.  isn't there better
things that we could be doing with our time?

I agree that the word "ni---" is hateful.  But as Katie has pointed out, it's
not like people deny you basic human rights because you enjoy SF.  There's a
big difference.

In the immortal words of Woody Allen -- the director of one of my personal
favorite SF humor movies, SLEEPER (okay, it's borderline SF) -- "It's all
mental masturbation."  (how's that for a convoluted sentence?)

Anyway, I don't mean to offend, but it just seems like everyone's being
awfully picky.  Can't we all try to get along?

AllGrill

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 21:38:37 1995
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Date:         Thu, 04 May 95 21:37:58 EDT
From: Sean Alan Wallace <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      *Intuit (please ignore the last Intuit message from me!)
To: multiple recipients of sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>

Sorry guys and girls,

I meant to send that last *Intuit message to Mike, and somehow my
system goofed (or I did, most likely). Please ignore that message -
it's meant for Resnick. Sorry....
                                      - Sean -

From shal  Thu May  4 22:09:34 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 22:09:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Stephanie A. Hall" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi, etc.etc.etc...
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Thu, 4 May 1995, Joe DeRouen wrote:

> The analogy of "nigger" to "sci-fi" is weak.  The former is a degrading 
> term used to ridicule and oppress a race of people.  The latter is a term 
> used to classify a genre of fiction that (I doubt) anyone really uses to 
> ridicule or oppress.
> 

This may have been unclear in the discussion, though it is clear to any 
of us who have had it applied to them.  "Sci-fi" may be a term 
disparaging a genre, "sci-fi reader" (or fan, or "he/she just reads 
sci-fi") is the pejorative as applied to people.

A tale -  When I was in primary school we were always asked to make a 
list of the books we had read during the summer at the begining of the 
school year.  Well, among other reading interests, I was plowing through my 
father's collection of Burroughs, and bothering the local librarian for 
Heinlein, Cordwainer Smith, and such -- some of which was adult fiction 
right over my head. I was actually rather proud to be using the adult 
section of the library. At first I reported what I read honestly, until 
one teacher scolded me for not reading more literary books.  She told me 
I was "smart enough" to read literature, rather than "sci-fi."  Well, of 
course I kept reading what I wanted to, I just got very selective about 
the books I admitted to reading. 

"Sci-fi" is a slur -- because it is associated with a group of people, 
not just books, and it is used to beat those people down.  That is one of 
the reasons that sentiments run so strongly on the issue.  The fact that 
several people here are not aware that it is a slur may be an indication 
that times are changing -- one hopes.

Stephanie

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist           The Library of Congress
American Folklife Center               preserves and houses
Library of Congress                    countless ideas and opinions.
Washington, DC 20540-8100              Those expressed here 
[log in to unmask]                           are my own.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^






From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 22:13:38 1995
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Date:         Thu, 04 May 95 22:05:49 EDT
From: Camille Bacon-Smith <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: From Alain Vaillancourt: Re: Photocopying
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 4 May 1995 11:47:47 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

It seems to me that SFWA ought to be able to negotiate a computer access
to oop materials something like CARL, where you enter your credit card
number, and they charge you for the article, and then fax it to yuo
through your computer.  It is kind of expensive, like $10 or more for
an article from CARL, but the fee should provide for maintaining the
database and for distributing the royalty much like my copy center pays
royalties through a clearing house.  It is a real probem doing consciencious
scholarship if you don't have an unlimited travel budget for visiting
major repositories.

Oh, by the way, I have looked up the publishing information on R & R, which

sort of started this volatile thread:

First pub, Asimovs, April '86.  A good issue in general, now that I recall.

Also appears in YEAR'S BEST, edited by Dozois, the big trade "best",
(Fourth Annual)  St. Martin's, 1987.  It appeared in another Year's best
anthology that same year, in mass market paper, but I forget which one
that was, and I don't have it on hand.
Camille Bacon-Smith

From cstu  Fri May  5 07:42:10 1995
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Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 07:42:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From from Moderator
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

First off, let me warn you that I have 38 messages awaiting approval.  
Some maybe error messages, but in any case, be prepared and patient.  It 
takes me quite awhile to get these messages out without crashing our 
fragile server.

Second, I have received an unanimous voice on my deleting messages that 
repeat information queried, such as the author or title of a story.  I 
will do so when there is no additional information.  I will NOT if the 
info is wrong, mostly because I cannot check every reference for 
accuracy.  

Third, I have also received requests to kill certain threads.  I have
pondered this one and I do not think I can do this with a clear
conscience; if someone is discussing a science fiction related topic, then
they should be able to post regardless of the popularity of the subject. 
This does place a burden on the poster, however, to CLEARLY MARK THE
SUBJECT OF THE POST.  So please, change the subject heading of Repost
Digests or other unclear topics.  This will allow those not interested to
delete the post without reading the message.  For personal replies
(messages intended for one person only), please send these to the poster
directly.  I will only kill threads that wander completely away from
science fiction or fantasy (and I hope that never happens). 

Please send all replies, abuse, thanks you's, etc. on this subject 
directly to me.  Also, if you have any trouble with the list 
(unsubscribing, etc.), please contact me directly at [log in to unmask] for the 
fastest help.  If you send to the list, you have to wait until I make it 
to that message.

Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]


From shal  Thu May  4 22:21:14 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 22:21:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Stephanie A. Hall" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF and humor
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Thu, 4 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> What's your favorite SF humor book/short story/movie?
> 
> AllGrill

Favorite? I don't know. But here's a couple of recently published stories 
that had me in stitches:

"Jesus at the Bat" by Esther Friesner (F&SF July 1994) (ok so it is 
fantasy realism rather than sf)

_Uncharted Territory_  By Connie Willis  (maybe this is funniest to those 
of us who have done ethnographic work.)


Stephanie

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist           The Library of Congress
American Folklife Center               preserves and houses
Library of Congress                    countless ideas and opinions.
Washington, DC 20540-8100              Those expressed here 
[log in to unmask]                           are my own.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 22:30:42 1995
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Date:         Thu, 04 May 95 22:23:36 EDT
From: Camille Bacon-Smith <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: SF/Sci Fi in the UK
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 4 May 1995 13:26:06 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

Mike--the books you mention about fan culture are histories--fan history
is a favorite thing in fandom.  I leave that to the folks who do it well,
since my training is in ethnography.  I have a few histories--TRILLION
YEAR SPREE, Hartwell's book, and a shelf more of lit-crit and stuff--
and of course, Barry Malzberg's book, and Damon's, and a few more, so
that I don't work in a contextual vacuum.  And Patrick has loaned me a
copy of WALT WILLIS'S  stuff, which I have to get back to him next as soon
as I finish the requisite chapter.

Mostly, though, I work from real-time interviews of fans, organizers, pros,
editors and publishers.  David Hartwell is doing peer review, and I

send chapters out to appropriate folks, like Ben Yalow for con organizing,
Patrick for con-structure, folks in costuming, and Joanna Russ for the
part about women.

The most fun part has been visiting people at home, and at work, seeing
how different one publisher is from another--one running the show out of
his living room, another from a chic office building.  The field in all its
variety is quite amazing, but my editor at the University of Pennsylvania
Press is afraid I will have to deliver the manuscript in a wheelbarrow!
Camille

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 22:44:43 1995
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Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 22:44:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Thomas M. Whitehead" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: From Alain Vaillancourt: Re: Photocopying
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Just an observation on photocopying from a ... Libarian!  I have always been
a stickler for trying to understand and obide by copyright legislation 
and the rights of the publisher and the author of a creation. While there 
have always been patrons who have not understood those rights and the legis-
lation the majority of patrons "in previous years" have either understood or
could not afford the earlier copying prices or knew that their copies 
would not last (talking 20-30 years ago).  But I have to say that in the past
ten or less years everyone wants photocopies of everything - without 
regard to condition of materials and, pertinent to this discussion, 
regardless of copyright resrictions - no patron seems to care and in my ex-
perience many librarians do not know or care about copyright.  To many 
librarians out-of-print is equivalent to public domain.  Does 
photocopying in institutional libraries effect sales of retail published
materials? In my opinion very heavily so.   And what the Internet is 
doing and will be doing to literary rights is going to be very interesting.


<*>------------<*>------------<*>------------<*>------------<*>
    Thomas M. Whitehead                 Special Collections
    Temple University Libraries      Philadelphia, PA 19122
<*>                                                         <*>
    Voice: 215-204-8230                   Fax: 215-204-5201
             EMail: [log in to unmask]
<*>------------<*>------------<*>------------<*>------------<*>



From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 22:46:22 1995
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Date:         Thu, 04 May 95 22:31:50 EDT
From: Camille Bacon-Smith <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Engines of the Night
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 4 May 1995 13:33:36 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

Mike, I found Harlan's article to be pretty inaccurate, in the way he
can often be, mostly by generalizing a small minority onto the whole
of fandom.  But, on the other hand, if Harlan wasn't biting the hand that
feeds him, it wouldn't be Harlan.

As for Barry Malzberg, when I was reading ENGINES.. I was thinking of an
article I read, I think in Asimov's, and I think about Randall Garrett,
among others, who have found the demands of the field destructive.  I think
some writers, in all genres, walk through life with, like, their raw nerve
endings hanging out.  I remember when I was writing about hurt-comfort fan
fiction, and how so many of the writers had really life-shattering experiences
they were working out, someone reminded me of that.  She said that what may
seem minor to one person can really hurt a lot in another person's life--
we can't judge someone else's pain by our own capacity.

Barry has always struck me as a writer who expected that being talented
and good at what he writes should be enough to make him successful in his
chosen field.  Unfortunately, his vision is not that of the mass market
we rely on to pay the big bills.  But his vision is a part of him.  So, he
keeps putting himself on the line.  What a dreadful, dreadful wieght to carry.q

 Camille

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 22:55:35 1995
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From: Camille Bacon-Smith <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: SF and humor
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 4 May 1995 17:40:55 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]>

I just love BIMBOS OF THE DEATH SUN, by Sharon McCrumb.  It isn't really
sf, but it hits more nails on the head than are really comfortable.

As for movies, I like WIZARD OF SPEED AND TIME, and EARTH GIRLS ARE EASY.

Camille

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 23:06:34 1995
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Date:         Thu, 04 May 95 22:59:53 EDT
From: Camille Bacon-Smith <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: From Katie Auslander: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi, etc.etc.etc...
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 4 May 1995 18:34:27 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]>

Katie, Katie, Katie--doesn't it matter to you that the people who write the
fiction you claim to love have told you that it offends them to be referred
to with a particular form of the abbreviation of the literary form they
create every day?

It's sort of like deciding you want to call the Bloomsbury group the
boring simps because you don't think that what they call themselves has
any bearing on anything.  Or perhaps we should call Phillip Glass's music
that boring stupid stuff, instead of minimalistic?  The point is, those
who invent the game get to give it a name.  And if you don't believe that
these guys are inventing the game, just imagine what your bookshelves would

look like if they weren't writing--not just the ones on this board, but
all of them.  THEY DON'T LIKE IT.  NONE OF THEM DO.  If you persist, in the
face of repeatedly being told so, you show not ignorance, but willful
malevolence toward the artists, whether that is your intention or not.

Camille

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 23:17:20 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Fri,  5 May 95 02:48:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Humor faves
X-Genie-Id: 0700136
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

Please, no top-ten lists of fave hmorous books and movies.  That topic pops
up on GEnie and CompuServe every week or so, and it's boring and dumb and
pointless.  One new reader will list ten books that are on the stands now
that nobody has ever heard of, and one old reader will start with Stanley G.
Weinbaum and get as far as Ralph Milne Farley.  In between, the rest of the
people list books of varying quality, to no good purpose as far as I can
see.  I don't particularly care what anyone else's favorite books are--even
if I wrote them.
 
If the lists are meant as a means of suggesting titles to others to read,
that's dumb, too, because how much do you know about the person posting the
list?  We don't need to fill up the SF-LIT message block with neofan stuff
like that.
 
Unless, of course, the list is from Resnick or myself.  We're AUTHORITIES.
Kids, don't try this at home.
 
(signed) "The Wise Old Man of the Bayous"

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 23:19:11 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Fri,  5 May 95 02:47:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: E-Mail Addresses
X-Genie-Id: 5539092
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

A while ago some folks printed a little book called E-MAIL ADDRESSES OF THE
RICH AND FAMOUS, or words to that effect.  They put my address in it,
although I am not rich and only incipiently famous.  For two weeks, I
received twenty or more junk e-mails a day, mostly saying "I've never read
your stuff, but I found your address."
 
Y'all, please be thoughtful in your use of the posted address list.
 
George

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May  4 23:19:49 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Fri,  5 May 95 02:46:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Photocopying Redux
X-Genie-Id: 7292087
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

Colleen, your arguments against photocopying were excellent and very well
stated.  I wish people would realize that virtually anything they want to
read is available easily by mail order, if by no other means.  It's a lot
cheaper to order a book from an SF shop (almost all of which carry a large
selection of used books in addition to the new) than photocopying one.
 
Once I went to Kinko's to photocopy one of my own stories for use in my SF
class.  I practically had to jump through hoops to persuade the clerk to do
it, because he told me it was illegal to photocopy copyrighted material.  I
had a really tough time persuading him that I owned the copyright.  I guess
I just don't look like what most folks think an author should look like.
 
A similar thing happened many years ago, when I lived in New York City.  I
was going to visit a friend, and realized after I left my apartment that I'd
forgotten to take a copy of my first novel as a gift.  I stopped in a
Doubleday bookstore to buy one.  I tried to pay for it with a check, but I
didn't have a driver's license.  I mentioned that the book had been
published by Doubleday, that the clerk should look at the name on my check
and the name on the spine of the novel, and look at the jacket photo and
look at me.  He never did sell me that book.  I don't shop in Doubleday
stores anymore. . . .
 
(signed) "Your Usual Victim Type"

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 00:32:27 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Introit
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I don't have a problem with any message I've seen. The day I can't
be teased any more is the day you ought to take me out and shoot me.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 00:38:42 1995
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Date: Fri, 05 May 1995 00:38:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF and humor
To: [log in to unmask]
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Favorite sf humor book?

Start with Sheckley's DIMENSION OF MIRACLES, the absolute top.  

Follow with Sheckley's MINDSWAP and JOURNEY BEYOND TOMORROW, Sladek's
RODERICK AT RANDOM, my own Lucifer Jones books (ADVENTURES, EXPLOITS,
ENCOUNTERS, LUCIFER JONES), John Jakes' MENTION MY NAME IN ATLANTIS,
Effinger's MAUREEN BIRNBAUM, BARBARIAN SWORDPERSON, Effinger's, Chalker's
and my THE RED TAPE WAR, and Barry Malzberg's GATHER IN THE HALL OF
THE PLANETS (written as "K. M. O'Donnell").

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 00:39:13 1995
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Date: 05 May 95 00:38:01 EDT
From: Jeff Lemkin <[log in to unmask]>
To: LOC sf discussion <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: SF and humor
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>


Allgrill@aol writes

Here's a new strain. 

What's your favorite SF humor book/short story/movie?

>>Almost anything written by Keith Laumer, with Retief at the top of the list
>>"John T. Sladek's"  _Mechasm_, a tale which plays like the Marx Brothers on
the infosduperway.
>>The early Harry Harrison's _Bill, the Galactic Nincompoop_ stuff is great
>>No question in my mind that Eric Frank Russell wrote some of the zaniest
fiction in town. Both his short stories and longer pieces have a good-natured
satirical sense that is pretty rare.
>>If you're looking for some good drinking humor, try _Tales from Gavagan's Bar_
by deCamp and Pratt, or
>>more currently, Spider Robinson's witty topors at _Callahan's_ (incarnations
vary)

There are some great people writing out there, but I haven't found any recent
examples of fiction that I considered really humorous. There's been a lot of
fiction that *says* "I'm going to hit you over the head and be your funny tale
now", but nothing that's delivered the way some of the earlier work has. Can I
be losing my sense of humor. . .can anybody tell me what's been written in the
last few years that's passingly humorous.

	Cheers!

	-Jeff


From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 01:04:25 1995
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Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 01:04:20 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Looking for Trek On-Line
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hello All!

I, too, am a new lurker to this list, but would like to ask for your
assistance.  If you know of any Internet sights that would be of particul=
ar
interest to Star Trek fans and students, please mail me the address and a=

brief description of the services offered.

All of this will be going into an item I'm writing for UFP Today, one of =
the
leading Star Trek fanzines.  Sadly, all I can offer for your assistance i=
s a
copy of the story and that glowing feeling that you get from helping your=

fellow lurker.

"Science fiction writers, I am sorry to say, really do not know anything.=
  We
can=92t talk about science, because our knowledge of it is limited and
unofficial, and usually our fiction is dreadful."
-- Philip K. Dick

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 01:35:12 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Kevin Runyon)
Subject: Re: SF and humor

>Here's a new strain. 
>
>What's your favorite SF humor book/short story/movie?
>
>Just asking.
>
>AllGrill
>
>
When I was about 12, I discovered _Bill, the Galactic Hero_ (the original by
Harry Harrison).  It was a trade edition that I still cherish.  I think that
part of its glamour was that I had recently read for the first time
_Starship Troopers_ and it was a terrific homage...'

Kev
Kevin Runyon
[log in to unmask]


"an alliance is nothing more than two parties who think that they can
benefit more by screwing the public rather than each other..."


From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 02:13:12 1995
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Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 02:13:12 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF and humor

Having spent almost 20 years in the belly of the beast (so to speak), I find
that the Reteif novels strike a responsive chord. Until you've fought it from
the inside, you really can't appreciate the sillyness of the goverenment/milit
ary beauracracy. I've oftern wondered what Keith Laumer did before/while he
was writing those stories. He knows too much.

The 'Myth' series is a close second.

Favorite movie?  Buckaroo Banzi. 

What happened to the sequel?

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 05:15:13 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: From Alain Vaillancourt: Re: Photocopying
Date: Fri, 05 May 95 09:54:00 BST
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Encoding: 43 TEXT
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Sean Alan Wallace <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


>Does this apply to photcopying short stories, Al?  In my experience, when
>I am doing research, I often utilize the InterLibrary Loan Service in 
ordering
>hundreds of short stories from magazines otherwise unavailable to
>any means I might use. for example: AMAZING STORIES, NEW WORLDS, even 
fanzines
>that are unavailable to the general public. While, yes, I deplore NOT 
having
>a personal copy of the magazine, financial reasons demand that you must
>get a photocopy. After all, you cannot spend a thousand dollars on a 
complete
>run of AMAZING STORIES.  Whether or not this actually applies to books, 
which
>more often than not, are seriously out-of-print and out of your means to
>buy a copy, then what course are you left to take?  You do not stand
>over a book and say, "Dear god, I shouldn't photocopy this. I might affect
>the general market." That's not reality. Reality is, in terms of research, 
is
>that you try to get books/short stories/research any way possible, whether
>through photocopying or not.
>
>Hmmmmm....any one want to flame me now ;-)

Not at all - well not me, anyway.  In the UK, I believe the rule is 
something like "Thou shalt not photocopy the ENTIRE book - but, OK, for 
research you can grab a bit of it."  I presume that "a bit" is quantified 
somewhere, but the principle, anyway, is that people are not expected to buy 
every book that they might conceivably find useful.  After all, there are 
libraries, and they do have photocopiers in them.  All of which is by way of 
getting to the uninspiring conclusion that A short story is unlikely to 
constitute more than "a bit" of any given book and that one could therefore 
copy it with impunity.  Besides, it's routine on other courses for tutors to 
pass round offprints of individual articles.  Don't see why this should be 
different.  Probably not a great addition to the debate, I'm afraid, but 
there you go...

          Dave

[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 05:23:53 1995
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From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 05:23:56 1995
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From: Ruth Ballam <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Plymouth
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 10:28:15 GMT
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi, etc.etc.etc...
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Priority: normal
X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Mac (v2.1.2)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>

>On Wed, 3 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:
>
>> I thought the point of the discussion was that, for whatever reason, and
>> whether you agree or not, 90% or more of the pro community finds "sci-fi"
>> an offensive term, and now that you all know it, why would you use it
>> around people who feel that way and have never done you any harm?
>> 

Are people really offended by sci-fi ? 
It's hardly a personal insult is it ? If I use sci-fi rather than SF I'm not making any 
comment about any person or group, so what's to be offended about ?
As I've said before, I tend to use SF for email to SF forums/mailing lists but I say 
sci-fi when talking to people (eg. at work), otherwise they wouldn't know what I 
was going on about :-)

On Thu, 4 May 1995 "Stephanie A. Hall" <[log in to unmask]> wrote :
>
>Yes, well, the insistance of distributors of SF film and television on 
>using a term that is both offensive to a core group of their targed 
>audience and connotes a product of inferior quality does seem to me to 
>be a very odd marketing strategy. 
>

I disagree.

To SF fans, SF means Science Fiction, but what about everybody else. 
Someone has already pointed out that to some people SF is San Fransisco. I 
think we can assume that to various groups of people around the world the 
initials SF mean totally different things, so from the point of view of Film/TV 
distributors SF isn't  very useful. 

They *could* use Science Fiction, but everybody tends towards abbreviations 
(as the use of SF proves) so that leaves Sci-Fi (which Joe public understands). 
The "core group" are small in number and aren't likely to boycott a good film (in 
significant numbers) over the use of Sci-Fi so from a marketing point of view it 
makes perfect sense to use Sci-Fi.

So, everybody chill out ! 
Smile. 
Don't let these trivial matters stress you out  :-)
If you have a Macintosh get a copy of Kingyo and watch the cute pink fish 
swimming around. If not, just think about a cute pink fish swimming about for a 
bit, you'll feel a lot better :-)

Ruth 


-------------------------------------------
[log in to unmask]
Ruth Ballam,
Computing Service,
University of Plymouth,
-------------------------------------------

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 05:33:06 1995
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From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 06:44:48 1995
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To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi, etc.etc.etc...
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>"What about proportional representation, eh?"
>
>A very good question. But it does rather imply that it's ok to use
>the word "nigger" in a crowd that's 80% white and 20% black, and only
>wrong when the black section hits 51%.

Not a strict parallel, I'd say, but a worthy point.


>You now know beyond any shadow of a doubt that if you use "sci-fi" online,
>SOMEone is going to find it offensive. Do what you feel you have to do.

Frankly, although it seems that 90% of those who express a preference would 
go for "not-sci-fi" for whatever reason, I suspect that we're doomed anyway, 
in the short term at least.  Last week, for example, the "Radio Times" (one 
of the few venerable and VERY prominent UK magazines giving weekly TV and 
radio listings, as far as I know still published by the BBC) decided to have 
the words "Why sci-fi is taking over TV" (or something very similar) all 
over its cover.  Now, this magazine is not in any way an authority on the 
subject as was evident, if proof were needed, from the rather cursory 
article inside, but it purported to be examining the idea seriously - and 
who was going to demonstrate otherwise to the massed viewing public?  (Now, 
it's obvious to those in the know that they were simply plugging The X-Files 
and one or two other BBC shows without mentioning anything on other 
channels, but again, who's going to get /that/ point across?)  In the face 
of exposure like this, no lobby of SF pros/fans/academics/whatever is really 
likely to get anywhere.  It's in the interest of the mass media to keep SF 
perceived at this cosy, trivial, easily-explained/dismissed level.  Even if 
they understood the genre (which is questionable), I doubt that they'd want 
to go back on decades of publicity to reposition SF as something possibly 
difficult, challenging or important.  Look what happens to the popular 
market then.  In any case, they /don't/ understand it.  Joe Straczynski, 
creator of Babylon 5 (one of those shows not mentioned by the BBC article, 
by the way - odd that it's on Channel 4...) apparently had the repeated 
experience over several years of hearing studio executives "explaining" to 
him "But we've already got a sci-fi show, you see?  There's no need for 
another one..." before Warners finally took the thing.  BBC have done the 
same thing about financing various series.

I know this thread started out with the question of whether we in the UK 
have the same conventions between SF/sci-fi/etc as those in the US, and it 
appears that we have, but, honestly, I can't see "sci-fi" going away if the 
mass media have anything to do with it - which, regrettably, seems 
inevitable.  Personally, I find that this very fact is one that makes the 
term objectionable, but I think it's likely to stay.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 07:12:13 1995
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Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 07:12:13 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Kill all the lawyers

Marc Stackpole wrote:

CEO comments:
From: Mark Stackpole:CEO
Date: ## 05/04/95 11:44 ##
Was the sequel to "Infinity Hold" rejected by Questar (and isn't that 
line of SF defunct anyway?)? Will this be the only publication of 
this novel, or has it been picked up by another publisher? And what 
is the status of "First Kill All the Lawyers"?
Questions, questions.
 --------------------------------------------------------

I don't know the story of Questar except that they're out of business.  Barry
did a talk at a PSFS meeting a few years ago which we drove to the hear him
but missed his talk and only heard him read from the sequel.  If someone on
this list knows Barry or if an interview has that whole story speak up.
I believe the sequel is titled Kill all the Lawyers and as far as I know only
Absolute Magnitude (USed to called Harsh Mistress) will be publishing it.
It would be great if this revived interest in the stories.  I really enjoyed
Infinity Hold and wouldn't mind a few sequels to it on my bookshelf!

Phil Merkel
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 08:25:12 1995
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From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF and humor

AllGrill asks:



>Here's a new strain. 

>What's your favorite SF humor book/short story/movie?

>Just asking.

Harry Harrison's "Stainless Steel Rat" series.

Marina Frants
[log in to unmask]





From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 08:26:44 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF and humor



> Here's a new strain. 
> 
> What's your favorite SF humor book/short story/movie?
> 
> Just asking.

I have a soft spot in my heart for the original "Hitchhiker's Guide to the
Galaxy."  I thought the rest went steadily downhill, but the first one was
hilarious.

Short story?  Gosh, that's a hard one, mostly because I've read so many that
I've overflowed my memory capacity and can't recall.  I suspect that means I
haven't found one that is THAT funny.

Movie?  Hmmm.  Dark Star.  Small portions of Spaceballs were funny.

Joe Karpierz

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 08:30:50 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi, etc.etc.etc...
Date: Fri, 05 May 95 13:08:00 BST
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Encoding: 38 TEXT
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>At first I reported what I read honestly, until
>one teacher scolded me for not reading more literary books.  She told me
>I was "smart enough" to read literature, rather than "sci-fi."  Well, of
>course I kept reading what I wanted to, I just got very selective about
>the books I admitted to reading.

Odd - I had almost an identical experience.  It took me several years of 
school to come across a teacher who wasn't that ignorant on this topic.  My 
liking for SF was "indulged", I think, as a strange anomaly in an 
/otherwise/ "good" academic record.


>"Sci-fi" is a slur -- because it is associated with a group of people,
>not just books, and it is used to beat those people down.  That is one of
>the reasons that sentiments run so strongly on the issue.  The fact that
>several people here are not aware that it is a slur may be an indication
>that times are changing -- one hopes.

It's also used to control markets (also perhaps a form of beating-down if 
you want to look at it that way, though it's not the overt sort that you 
describe).  That was the poorly-explained point of my ramblings earlier 
about TV companies and so on trading on the term.  I wouldn't claim that 
this is a firm generalisation, but it might be fair to suggest that, in a 
way, science fiction is a /genre/, with certain literary characteritics 
(though we can never actaully decide what those are...), while sci-fi is a 
kind of product bearing some relation to science fiction but targetted 
primarily at those who don't know or care much about the latter.  I suppose 
in a sense I mean that sci-fi can contain science fiction in a way that 
trivialises both and is meaningless when reversed.

I wish I could have said that without making it sound ridiculous - there's a 
distinction in there somewhere that I want to pull out, but I somehow can't 
formulate properly.

          Dave

[log in to unmask]
From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 08:37:10 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fen, Cons, etc




> 
> 	Up until now I hadnt really realised that fandom refered only to 
> sf readers who attended conventions. I have only been to two cons so far 
> (plus BayCon later this month) but have been reading sf since I was about 
> 9. Since I grew up in Spain where there is little fannish activity (none 
> where I lived) I wasn't even aware of the term until I moved to San 
> Francisco almost three tears ago. Since my financial situation is pretty 
> much non-existent I cant afford to go to cons most of the time. Still I 
> definitely consider myself a fan and will continue to call myself one 
> wether I get to go to cons or not. Maybe I'm just a fan in spirit rather 
> that fact?

I tend to be on your side of the fence.  I've been reading sf since I was a 
small lad (well, maybe not that small, but I suspect it's something like 25
years now), and only started going to cons in the early 80s (I'm 36 years old).
That was because those were the days I could afford to go.  I was single and
had a good paying job, which meant I could indulge my whims.  

Before that, I was a charter member of the sf club at Purdue, and besides being
an officer, I eventually was the fanzine editor (albeit a bad one in my 
opinion.  I tried to resign once because I thought I wasn't putting in enough
time, but other members wouldn't let me - they just did more of the work).  I
think I was a fan back then, even before I went to a con.

I now am married with 2 children and a mortgage payment.  I no longer can afford
to go to many cons.  Worldcon was almost never missed in the old days (oh yes,
my wife is a fan too - we met at a con).  We may not make a Worldcon for many
years now.  We were at Winnipeg, and won't make it again until after San
Antonio (that one is just too far from the Chicago area to drive to, and 
flying the family will be too expensive).  Our next planned con is Rivercon
over Labor Day Weekend this year in Louisville.  Does that make me a part time
fan?  No, I don't think so.  I read like crazy, and hold supporting memberships
in Worldcons just to vote for the Hugos and site selections.

Whatever.

By the way, Mr. Resnick, from the Progress Report (or flyer, or whatever) I've
just received from Rivercon, you're scheduled to be there.  I hope I can
congratulate you for a Hugo there.

Joe Karpierz 

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 08:37:10 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fen, Cons, etc




> 
> 	Up until now I hadnt really realised that fandom refered only to 
> sf readers who attended conventions. I have only been to two cons so far 
> (plus BayCon later this month) but have been reading sf since I was about 
> 9. Since I grew up in Spain where there is little fannish activity (none 
> where I lived) I wasn't even aware of the term until I moved to San 
> Francisco almost three tears ago. Since my financial situation is pretty 
> much non-existent I cant afford to go to cons most of the time. Still I 
> definitely consider myself a fan and will continue to call myself one 
> wether I get to go to cons or not. Maybe I'm just a fan in spirit rather 
> that fact?

I tend to be on your side of the fence.  I've been reading sf since I was a 
small lad (well, maybe not that small, but I suspect it's something like 25
years now), and only started going to cons in the early 80s (I'm 36 years old).
That was because those were the days I could afford to go.  I was single and
had a good paying job, which meant I could indulge my whims.  

Before that, I was a charter member of the sf club at Purdue, and besides being
an officer, I eventually was the fanzine editor (albeit a bad one in my 
opinion.  I tried to resign once because I thought I wasn't putting in enough
time, but other members wouldn't let me - they just did more of the work).  I
think I was a fan back then, even before I went to a con.

I now am married with 2 children and a mortgage payment.  I no longer can afford
to go to many cons.  Worldcon was almost never missed in the old days (oh yes,
my wife is a fan too - we met at a con).  We may not make a Worldcon for many
years now.  We were at Winnipeg, and won't make it again until after San
Antonio (that one is just too far from the Chicago area to drive to, and 
flying the family will be too expensive).  Our next planned con is Rivercon
over Labor Day Weekend this year in Louisville.  Does that make me a part time
fan?  No, I don't think so.  I read like crazy, and hold supporting memberships
in Worldcons just to vote for the Hugos and site selections.

Whatever.

By the way, Mr. Resnick, from the Progress Report (or flyer, or whatever) I've
just received from Rivercon, you're scheduled to be there.  I hope I can
congratulate you for a Hugo there.

Joe Karpierz 
From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 08:40:05 1995
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   Fri, 05 May 95 08:39:50 EDT
Date: Fri, 5 May 95 08:38:54 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF and humor

For a little light reading, mixed in with humor, I enjoy the "MYTH" books
and the "Phule's Company" books by Robert Aspirin.

AS for movies, the only one that comes to mind is

"Dark Star"

A classic!

     Later,

Robert D. Bair
IBM Charlotte     RDBAIR at CLTVM1
CSP Test Engineering Support
[log in to unmask] or  [log in to unmask]
AR: WB3AHC, 1st Class FCC: P1-3-17298, Tripoli: #2253, NAR: #60163

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 08:56:17 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF and humor



> My favority humor books are more fantasy.  When I am blue, I re-read 
> _Bored of the Rings_ and it makes my day.  Also, I loved _The Princess Bride_
> Colleen

Gosh, I forgot about _Bored of the Rings_.  I also found _Doon_, the Dune
parody, funny as well.

Joe Karpierz

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 08:56:21 1995
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Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 07:53:45 -0500 (CDT)
From: Karen Warton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Photocopying
To: sf-lit mail <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII


Our library will not photocopy more than 10% of any material, no matter
what/who for.  We do have a lot of rare materials, and none of our
collection circulates, so we try to strike a balance.

Karen Warton
Assistant Cataloger, Special Collections
DeGolyer Library
Southern Methodist University, Dallas



From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 09:16:33 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF and humor



> I just love BIMBOS OF THE DEATH SUN, by Sharon McCrumb.  It isn't really
> sf, but it hits more nails on the head than are really comfortable.

At the risk of sounding too repetitious, I loved that one too.  I was going
to mention it in my original post, but then went off into space somewhere and
completely forgot.

The follow up book, _Zombies of the Gene Pool_, is also quite good, although
not as funny.  I don't believe it is intended to be, although it still pokes
fun at people in the field.

Joe Karpierz

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 09:21:01 1995
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Posted-Date: 5 May 1995 09:19:53 -0500
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: 5 May 1995 09:19:53 -0500
From: "George Porter" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF and humor
To: [log in to unmask]
X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP-QM 3.0.2

Subject:RE>>SF and humor                                 Date:5/5/95 
Time:9:19 AM

In the swords and sorcery realm, Greg Costikyan has produced a couple of side
splitting tomes in a series called _Cups and Sorcery_, namely _Another Day,
Another Dungeon_ and _One Quest, Hold the Dragons_.  Much of the humor stems
from his experience as a creator and particip[ant in role playing games.

George Porter


From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 09:23:32 1995
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Date: Fri, 5 May 95 8:22:59 CDT
From: patricia sayre mccoy <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi, etc.etc.etc...
In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 5 May 1995 09:11:51 -0400
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>

> >On Wed, 3 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:
> >
> >> I thought the point of the discussion was that, for whatever reason, and
> >> whether you agree or not, 90% or more of the pro community finds "sci-fi"
> >> an offensive term, and now that you all know it, why would you use it
> >> around people who feel that way and have never done you any harm?
> >> 
> 
> Are people really offended by sci-fi ? 
> It's hardly a personal insult is it ? If I use sci-fi rather than SF I'm not making any 
> comment about any person or group, so what's to be offended about ?
> As I've said before, I tend to use SF for email to SF forums/mailing lists but I say 
> sci-fi when talking to people (eg. at work), otherwise they wouldn't know what I 
> was going on about :-)
> 
> On Thu, 4 May 1995 "Stephanie A. Hall" <[log in to unmask]> wrote :
> >
> >Yes, well, the insistance of distributors of SF film and television on 
> >using a term that is both offensive to a core group of their targed 
> >audience and connotes a product of inferior quality does seem to me to 
> >be a very odd marketing strategy. 
> >
> 
> I disagree.
> 
> To SF fans, SF means Science Fiction, but what about everybody else. 
> Someone has already pointed out that to some people SF is San Fransisco. I 
> think we can assume that to various groups of people around the world the 
> initials SF mean totally different things, so from the point of view of Film/TV 
> distributors SF isn't  very useful. 
> 
> They *could* use Science Fiction, but everybody tends towards abbreviations 
> (as the use of SF proves) so that leaves Sci-Fi (which Joe public understands). 
> The "core group" are small in number and aren't likely to boycott a good film (in 
> significant numbers) over the use of Sci-Fi so from a marketing point of view it 
> makes perfect sense to use Sci-Fi.
> 
> So, everybody chill out ! 
> Smile. 
> Don't let these trivial matters stress you out  :-)
> If you have a Macintosh get a copy of Kingyo and watch the cute pink fish 
> swimming around. If not, just think about a cute pink fish swimming about for a 
> bit, you'll feel a lot better :-)
> 
> Ruth 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------
> [log in to unmask]
> Ruth Ballam,
> Computing Service,
> University of Plymouth,
> -------------------------------------------
> 

Please people--the horse died last night!  Enough already.  Either we get it
or we don't and nothing more you say will change that.  

Patricia Sayre McCoy                      Cataloging Supervisor
[log in to unmask]                      D'Angelo Law Library
uclpsm1@uchimvs1 (Bitnet)                 University of Chicago



From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 09:37:26 1995
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Date: Fri, 05 May 1995 08:36:48 -0600
From: John Jamison <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
Subject:  Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi, etc.etc.etc... -Reply

Well here is my 10 cents worth (inflation
y'know).

I have always heard, and this is admittily
apochraphyl(sp).  Some of the professionals
here can perhaps correct me.  Anyway, I had
always heard that in the dim past of publishing
some publishing houses would have 2 science
fiction lines,  One would have on the spine the
label SF or science fiction.  The other would
have sci-fi on the spine.  Generally SF or
science fiction would be a label placed on
what was considered higher quality stories or
novels.  Sci-fi on the other hand would go on
books that were considered junk by the
publisher or, at least, of a lower quality that
items with the SF or science fiction label.

Being a second hand book dealer I have a lot
of books go through my hands.  Addmittly I
have not done an exhaustive study but it does
seem to me that the books with the label sci-fi
tend to have lower quality artwork and,
looking at them objectively, tend to be what I
am sure someone would label as a lower
quality story.  Now from my personal
viewpoint I love it all.  I love every aspect of
science fiction writing.  I love all the junk, all
the gems, and all the artwork, EVERYTHING.
I even like being told that I just read "sci-fi". 
To quote an otherwise forgettable politician "I
wear their scorn like a badge of honor".

Forgive the mispellings and bad typing.

John Jamison
The Biker Librarian and wannabee bookseller

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 09:41:18 1995
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From: Bob Roehm <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Photocopying debate
To: "SF & Fantasy Discussion Forum" <[log in to unmask]>


Don't libraries in the UK pay an extra fee or royality when they buy a book in
order to, in theory, make up for any lost sales an author might experience? Or
something like that (pardon my ignorance)?

In the United States there is nothing beyond what the publisher gets for the
sale of that particular copy, regardless of how many people read (or copy) it,
the theory here being in part that access to free reading material can promote
an author's work and thus increase actual sales later. Working in both a
library and a bookstore, I suspect there is some truth to this but it's
difficult to document.

Bob

Robert A. Roehm
Asst., Office of Collection Mgmt., Ekstrom Library
Univ of Louisville, Louisville KY 40292
[log in to unmask] - (502)852-8715

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From: Bob Roehm <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Photocopying debate
To: "SF & Fantasy Discussion Forum" <[log in to unmask]>


Don't libraries in the UK pay an extra fee or royality when they buy a book in
order to, in theory, make up for any lost sales an author might experience? Or
something like that (pardon my ignorance)?

In the United States there is nothing beyond what the publisher gets for the
sale of that particular copy, regardless of how many people read (or copy) it,
the theory here being in part that access to free reading material can promote
an author's work and thus increase actual sales later. Working in both a
library and a bookstore, I suspect there is some truth to this but it's
difficult to document.

Bob

Robert A. Roehm
Asst., Office of Collection Mgmt., Ekstrom Library
Univ of Louisville, Louisville KY 40292
[log in to unmask] - (502)852-8715

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 09:46:07 1995
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Date: Fri, 05 May 1995 08:45:09 -0600
From: John Jamison <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
Subject:  Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi, etc.etc.etc... -Reply

Sorry to clog up the group somemore.  I just
wanted to say that, IN RE: my previous post on
what I understand the history of SF vs. SCI-FI
to be, I vote to respect the "Not sci-fi"
viewppoint.

Thanks,
John Jamison
The Biker Librarian and wannabee bookseller


From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 10:19:18 1995
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From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF and humor
Date: Fri, 05 May 95 15:18:00 UTC
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 ->
 -> What's your favorite SF humor book/short story/movie?
 ->

Dark Star without a doubt for the movie category.

As for authors, well:-
Anthony gives me a grin,
Adams makes me smile,
but so far, to date, only Pratchett makes me laugh out loud whilst reading.

markw - wondering what on earth the origin of the name AllGrill is.

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 10:28:37 1995
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To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF and humor
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Camille...

>As for movies, I like WIZARD OF SPEED AND TIME


Yes!!  YesyesyesYES!!!!

I've been looking for a copy of this for a while and just CANNOT find it 
anywhere.  It's a delightful little thing, which I've only ever seen on 
rental and even those copies seem to have died out.  I realise that this 
request is almost certainly doomed to failure, but if anyone can dig up a 
PAL copy of this for me I shall be extremely, not to say generously, 
grateful.  It boasts the most disgustingly saccharine story, theme song and 
everything else, yet does a magnificent job of self-parody that I found 
irresistible.  Please....

          Dave

[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 10:33:56 1995
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From: "Andrew Wheeler, Doubleday Book Clubs" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: humorous SF

Someone's already mentioned Connie Willis's UNCHARTED TERRITORY, but she has 
written several other funny stories (particularly "Spice Pogrom," which I 
think could make a _great_ movie, and has a female protagonist) in her 
collection IMPOSSIBLE THINGS.

Walter Jon Williams's Drake Maijstral books (THE CROWN JEWELS, HOUSE OF 
SHARDS and the upcoming -- in September, but I've read it already, and can 
tell you it's a hoot -- ROCK OF AGES) are very funny, about an Allowed 
Burglar in a future interstellar aristocracy.

Esther Friesner is editing a collection of funny female fantasy stories 
called CHICKS IN CHAINMAIL (also around September, I think) that has a bunch 
of good stories, but of course they're of the barbarian princess variety.

Mary Gentle's GRUNTS! (yet another book not out yet in the US, though I think 
it's been published in the UK) is a look at the Final Battle of Good and Evil 
from the point of view of the orcish footsoldier (tying it nicely to the 
militarism thread), and is hilarious in an occasionally _very_ sick way.

Our own GAE's MAUREEN BIRNBAUM, BARBARIAN SWORDSPERSON is hilarious, about an 
Eastern JAP who finds herself in various SF/vantasy worlds (Pellucidar, 
Asimov's Lagash, etc.) and aquits herself well with a broadsword (pun 
intended). I'm sure Effinger would be too shy to mention it himself, but it's 
a great book (if you can find it -- it was published by Swan Press, which is 
pretty small).

And, of course, there's Terry Pratchett's brilliant Discworld books. The 
first two are just funny, but then they start picking up some very serious 
themes (still handled quite funnily and very well). I think two of them have 
already been optioned for films, but there's no sign of anything happening 
there. GUARDS! GUARDS! has a dragon in it, if that helps.

I just noticed that most of this list is fantasy, rather than SF, but it does 
seem that there is more funny fantasy out there.
                                                         

To pick up on someone else's point, yes, Stephenson's THE DIAMOND AGE is an 
exceptionally good novel. I thought SNOW CRASH was a fun neo-cyberpunk romp 
with some good and interesting linguistic underpinnings, but it was 
essentially a caper novel. DIAMOND AGE is much deeper (he's acknowledged his 
dept to Dickens, and it shows) and will, I imagine, hold up well to 
rereading. It also will help the cause of the SF field (to be a bit 
pontifical for a moment), since all those hordes who devoured SNOW CRASH (but 
knew little about good SF or "real lit'racha") will also read DIAMOND AGE 
and, we can only hope, things will rub off on them. It's a very dense book, 
so it might be tough to teach, but the students would likely be motivated.


Andy Wheeler

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 10:44:01 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF and humor
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>I have a soft spot in my heart for the original "Hitchhiker's Guide to the
>Galaxy."  I thought the rest went steadily downhill, but the first one was
>hilarious.
>


I would say the same, but with regard to the original radio series.  Fondly 
remembered revelation from my schooldays, that is, even if I did 
subsequently discover a related timewarp problem with a couple of Sheckley 
novels (recently recommended by Mr Resnick, I was pleased to see)...  You 
can easily get labelled as a nasty old conservative grouch saying things 
like this, but that's just an occupational hazard of being a nasty old 
conservative grouch, and I still think that the original performances are 
funnier than anything else Adams has ever written (and I'm not dismissing 
him by any means, by the way - I know he was with everyone else in the 
studio, delivering things at the last minute) - with the possible exception 
of Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency.

          Dave

[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 11:03:18 1995
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To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
From: Cherie Ambrosino <[log in to unmask]>
Date:  5 May 95 11:07:27 EDT
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 I'm re-reading my battered and beaten copy of Silverlock [bought already 
battered and beaten years ago] for the umpteenth time =)  - for those who are 
unfamiliar its a wonderful Dante - like story of a disaffected young mundane's 
redemption of spirit in a fantasy land - sprinkled throughout with a number of 
literary references to many classical works - its also got front and end notes 
by Poul and Karen Anderson, as well as Niven and Pournelle - its lyrical and 
fun and one of my favorites - but [sigh] since I found it in a used bookstore 
[and never seen another]  I was wondering if anyone else knew what other books 
John Myers Myers [not a typo!] had written and if they were either in print or 
generally available.  Thanks - Cherie :-)


From @CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 11:07:57 1995
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From: Doug Kuiper <@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Writing/Reading and "Literature"
To: [log in to unmask]

>At first I reported what I read honestly until one teacher scolded me
>for not reading more literary books...

I have had similar experiences.  However, the majority of these experiences
relate to writing.  In high school this generally to the form of rules:
No SF or Fantasy!  Upon asking why, I was told that these genres were
too "formulaic".  In college, I discovered that these unfounded predjudices
continued, sometimes in a less obvious form, but always the writing of SF
or Fantasy was discouraged.  Has anyone else encountered expectations of
this nature?

I believe that, like most predujudices, there is a kernel of truth hidden here.
Most poorly written SF is formulaic.  Just as are many poorly written literary
novels, westerns, etc.  However, I have always been more impressed with good
SF than anything else.  Simply put, the fact that a SF writer can suspend my
disbelief in a world or universe completely (or even slightly) unlike our own
takes more skill than operating in a setting that exists in reality.
Thus, my hat is off to those of you who have crafted something unreal in your
mind and made it real in mine.

-Doug Kuiper
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 11:08:18 1995
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To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF and humor
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>Favorite movie?  Buckaroo Banzi.
>
>What happened to the sequel?

It remains a figment of the popular imagination, I think.  What you get for 
telling people there's going to be a sequel ("...against the Crime Lords of 
the World" or something like that?) and never actually making it.  Can't 
help thinking that Weller and Goldblum, at least, might decide they have 
better things to do these days.  Shame...

I overheard a dealer last weekend telling someone (or was the telling the 
other way round?) that the most sought-after piece of SF movie memorabilia 
in the UK was the Buckaroo Banzai headband.  Strange, I must say, but 
praiseworthy.  Odder than an odd thing, that film.  Apparently the dealer 
had several of the things but had been unaware of this strange undercurrent 
of opinion and neglected to bring them.

          Dave

[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 11:09:00 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Verbiage and What I Read

Hmm... well, for the record and my FINAL word on the subject, I prefer to
type and say SF, but will use sci-fi when feeling iconoclastic or if I ever
get the chance to talk to Forry again, and I certainly don't plan to use it
in front of Mike Resnick unless my sarcasm machine is set to Ellison-level.
:) I don't type it unless I'm being ironic or explanatory. I still dislike
"skiffy," but have now found "stf" and "sfnal" to loathe even more. My
thanks. I should probably point out that while I've been a fan of the genre
for most of my life, I didn't enter fandom proper until 1986.

*****

Sean, you asked me what I read and write. The writing part's simpler. The
story I submitted to WoTF uses the genetic construct concept started with
"The Island of Dr. Moreau" and most recently used by S. Andrew Swann's
trilogy which started with "Forests of the Night." I like working with
human-animal combo characters because they offer unusual characterization
potentials. I'm also a fan of allegorical writing, so being able to comment
on the human condition with a not-quite-human being appeals to me extremely.
I've written stuff wherein all of the bipedal characters were smooth-skinned
humanoids, but I kept throwing in talking unicorns. 

As for what I read, I think you can blame the allegorical writing and talking
animal preference on my reading the Narnia books when I was around 8. My
recent menu of books has included a few installments in Jerry Pournelle's
"There Will Be War" series, Amy Thompson's "Virtual Girl," and Charles
deLint's "Dreams Underfoot." My next book is a John Gardner James Bond novel,
though. My magazine list varies from F&SF to The New Republic, with tons of
stops in-between. I also manage to get to a few comic books here and there,
with a serious addiction to "Catwoman" riding higher than most.

-Brenda

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 11:15:12 1995
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From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Humor faves
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 ->
 -> it's boring and dumb and pointless.
 ->

Oh dear, a Grinch loose on SF-LIT.

markw - the cat without a hat who thinks  Suess is worthy of a mention here.

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 11:45:27 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Niven and militarism and ...

On 5 May -Alexander [log in to unmask] wrote;

>much sniped<
>
 Militaries get all the coolest toys first,<
 
Alexander;

Having retired from the U.S.Navy in November of 94, I can assure you that
that is not the case. I am writing this on a computer that is probably more
powerful than all the military comupter systems on the latest nuclear
submarines--combined, and it's just a 486.

It's not hard to understand why. Everything you said about procurment is
accurate enough, just think about how much time that all takes, plus the
design time for the systems. Plus getting all the technical documentation
written, another specialized function usually subcontracted. Traing needs to
be developed, same story. And faliure projections made, spares to meet those
projections also procured--and placed in the supply system. And all of that
is part of the procurment package. The prices for weapons systems bandied
around congress seem so large because all of that is part of the purchase
price.  

The amount of time involved to do all of that insures that by the time any
piece of military electronics gets to the fleet/field, the electronics is
already obsolete.

Makes it damn hard for a retired electronics tech to get work in his field,
trust me on that. I need to go back to school so I can catch up on the
digital technology, if I want to work in electronics, even if I just want to
use the Voc Ed degree I got while on active duty to teach. 

So I'm planning on going to law school, the moneys a whole lot better, and
the law don't change everytime you blink your eyes.

Cheers!

Michael Fisher

Spring Valley, Ca.

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 12:01:00 1995
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Subject: RE: SF and humor                                                 

*** Resending note of 05/05/95 10:55                                           
 AllGrill asks:                                                                
                                                                               
 >Here's a new strain.                                                         
 >What's your favorite SF humor book/short story/movie?                        
 >Just asking.                                                                 
                                                                               
Movie: Ice Pirates.  The "space herpe" was hilarious.                          
                                                                               
Dwain Camps (MIS 2A)                                                           
Project Leader - Decision Support Services/LOS                                 
Voice: (305) 593-4156  FAX: (305) 470-7909                                     
Internet: [log in to unmask]                                                 

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 12:07:01 1995
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From: Arthur Hlavaty <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF and humor
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Sheckley.  (I just re-read *Mindswap*, which is wonderful, and 
*Dimension of Miracles*, which is even better.)

Sladek (esp. *Mechasm*, *The Muller-Fokker Effect*, & the parodies).

Rudy Rucker.

Brunner's *Timescoop*.

and NOT Sharyn McCrumb.

Arthur D. Hlavaty             [log in to unmask]
Church of the SuperGenius   In Wile E. We Trust


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Date: Fri, 5 May 95 12:13:01 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: SF and F Humor

Would it be asking too much to consider "Monty Python and the Holy Grail"
as Fantasy Humor????????
If I can't include that film, then at least allow "Time Bandits" !

(From someone who never seems to tire from re-watching MPatHG)


     Later,

Robert D. Bair
IBM Charlotte     RDBAIR at CLTVM1
CSP Test Engineering Support
[log in to unmask]
AR: WB3AHC, 1st Class FCC: P1-3-17298, Tripoli: #2253, NAR: #60163

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 13:13:07 1995
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From: MIKE EWEN <[log in to unmask]>
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Cc: [log in to unmask]
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Subject: SF and F Humor

Oh YES!!
MPatHG is a classic in my mind I never tire of his humor.  As for books I would say anything by Anthony.

Lurker in the mist
Mike E     [log in to unmask]
Ah tis' but a scratch!

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 13:13:10 1995
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Date: Fri, 5 May 95 13:13:05 EDT
From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Writing/Reading and "Literature"

>At first I reported what I read honestly until one teacher scolded me
>for not reading more literary books...

I have to report a completely different experience.  None of my teacher
have ever tried to discourage me from reading SF (I got the impression
that most of them were thrilled to see a student who read anything at
all).  In college,  I took several writing workshops, where I was always
the only one doing SF.  Everyone thought it was really cool, including
the professor.  Unfortunately, it made it hard to get a decent critique.
I could hand in a really generic bug-eyed aliens story, and everyone
would go on about how original it was...

Marina Frants
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 13:28:23 1995
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Subject: SF, Literature, Theory
To: [log in to unmask]
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	I'd like to add to the comments on inter-textuality.
	For me, one of the most fascinating types of SF is that whose 
intertextuality includes not only SF, but mainstream literature, too. Two 
writers who excelled in this kind of hybrid were Fritz Leiber and Avram 
Davidson. For example, Leiber's Our Lady of Darkness becomes much more 
meaningful if you know De Quincey's "Levana and Our Ladies of Sorrow," 
and can see how Leiber plays off it. Similarly, his "Button Molder" makes 
sense only if you're familiar with Ibsen's "Peer Gynt," even though the 
story does give a brief explanation of the title.
	As for Davidson, his references are so numerous and so obscure 
that all I can say is that, if I understand half of them by the time I'm 
seventy, I'll start to believe that I'm well-read.
	The reason I like this kind of hybrid is that it avoids the two 
extremes which, as an academic interested in SF, I seriously dislike: on 
the one hand, those who read and refer only to mainstream literature, 
and, on the other, those who are unaware of anything outside SF. Writers 
like Leiber and Davidson prove that it's possible to have a sensibility 
which includes both--and that's immensely reassuring to me.
 -- 

Bruce Byfield ([log in to unmask])			
English Department, Simon Fraser University
Burnaby, B. C. Canada V5A 1S6 604-291-3136		

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 13:30:31 1995
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From: "Brian Attebery" <[log in to unmask]>
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To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Fri, 5 May 1995 11:33:16 MST
Subject:       Re: humorous SF
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I nominate Carol Emshwiller for most off-the-wall humor in SF.  Read 
_Carmen Dog_, "Abominable," and "The Start of the End of It All."  
Next most off-the-wall: Howard Waldrop.

For quieter humor, I like James Schmitz, Fredric Brown, Janet Kagan. 
For satire, Fred Pohl, Joanna Russ (you can hardly get funnier than 
sections of _The Female Man_).  For belly laughs, Connie Willis's "At 
the Rialto" and Eileen Gunn's "Stable Strategies for Middle 
Management." 


From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 13:45:06 1995
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Subject: SF and Humor
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 10:45:03 -0700 (PDT)
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	While I agree with Effinger that lists of favorite books or 
movies is mostly useless, I think that the topic of SF humor is still an 
interesting one.
	In the interests of presenting myself as an easy topic, I'd say 
that most of what passes for humor in SF is juvenile and obvious. The 
most common form is strained puns, of the sort found in the middle Xanth 
books (I gave up on the series long ago, so I can't talk about the later 
ones), or in the Myth series. These books are good enough for a light 
read, but when I've read one or two of a series, I can pretty much 
predict what the others will be like, and what the sources of humor will 
be, so I stop reading.
	On the other hand, SF has produced a few bits of humor which are 
more mature. Harlan Ellison can do rather good character-based humor, 
especially when dealing with American-Jewish culture ("Mom" and "I'm 
Looking for Kadik"). But perhaps the most consistently funny writer of 
serious SF is Avram Davidson. It's not that his jokes are especially 
funny; a punchline like "They let anyone into Eton these days" doesn't 
sound like very much on its own. Rather, it's the way Davidson lead up to 
such lines, with wildly elaborate plots and meandering digressions which 
somehow all manage to come together at the last moment. His best stories 
are so elaborately plotted and elegantly phrased that I find myself 
re-reading them, not for the puns or punchlines, but for the sheer 
storytelling expertise.

-- 

Bruce Byfield ([log in to unmask])			
English Department, Simon Fraser University
Burnaby, B. C. Canada V5A 1S6 604-291-3136		

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 14:19:29 1995
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From: "Andrew Wheeler, Doubleday Book Clubs" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: humor and the death of Questar

I can't believe I left Sheckley and Sladek out of my previous list! I just 
read a Sheckley collection! This is the major problem of an open-ended 
question like this, since there's always more that you've forgotten. It could 
(and probably will, despite GAE's attempt to strangle it in its crib) go on 
for ages.

As to the references to Questar being "defunct," that's not exactly what 
happened. Warner simply relaunched the Warner Questar SF line as Warner 
Aspect. I think the new line is getting more promotion money, the books look 
somewhat more attractive, and there's a new logo. The reason for the change 
was the the old editor left and Warner brought in Betsy Mitchell to run the 
line. But I have heard, unofficially, that the first year or so of Aspect is 
primarily made up of books bought by Questar, so the Longyear may yet appear.
                                                

Andy Wheeler

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 14:22:33 1995
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From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: SF as "literature"/literary references

I'm intrigued by the idea that an author needs to make references
to great literature of the past in order to be taken seriously in the
present.  On source that SF and Fantasy regularly refer to (often
with excellent results) is fairy tales.  Sheri Tepper's _Beauty_,
Joan Vinge's _The Snow Queen_, Jane Yolen's _Briar Rose_, Tanith Lee's
_Red as Blood_  collection, the anthologies edited by Ellen Datlow
and Terry Windling... I could go on an on (and usually do).

Perhaps this thematic dependence on what most people consider "kid stuff"
has something to do with the genre's lack of respect in "literary"
circles.  Your average person-in-the street only knows the Disney
versions of fairy tales, or at best the cleaned-up Victorian versions.
Makes it easy to dismiss SF and fantasy (especially fantasy) as "childish."

Marina Frants
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 14:42:33 1995
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From: Jim Wallace <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Humor/Theory & intertextuality
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Fave humorous SF works? Alexei Panshin's Villiers books (_Star Well_, 
_The Thurb Revolution_, _Masque World_; published by Ace many moons ago, 
I'm not sure they're in print).  The key word here is subtle...
(N.B. did anyone else notice that R.A. MacAvoy grafted her novel _The 
Third Eagle_ into the same universe?)

T. & I. (not to be confused with t. & a.): The idea that the classics are 
one "shared universe" meganovel (that's not what you said, just my 
reworking of it) is intriguing and accurate. And I have to agree that 
when SF does relate back to the "real" world it makes it more 
interesting, _especially_ when it's a different take on the familiar, or 
the unfamiliar.  Poul Anderson's constant mentions of _Tale of Genji_ in 
the Flandry books comes to mind, making you realize that the Empire in 
question traces its ancestry to the Japanese empire.  Or John Morressey's 
wonderful new version of alphabetic order, derived from the 
frequency-of-letters list in Poe's "The Gold Bug" (the Morressey novel is 
_Stardrift_ aka _Nail Down the Stars_).  But neither of these writers is 
particularly literary, just using a device to help suspend disbelief.  So 
I conclude that the literary references can help raise the respectability 
of an SF novel, but is not sufficient in itself; it also requires good 
writing and a host of other factors.  (Note: I am not under the illusion 
that the original poster of this topic meant that intertextuality was 
sufficient to make "sci-fi" into SF into literature; it might appear so 
from my last sentence.  Is my ass now covered?  Good.)

regards,
jim wallace
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 14:48:51 1995
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From: Sandy Moltz <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Assistance, Please
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 5 May 95 14:48:38 EDT
Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85]

I would like to contact a certain science fiction writer to ask him to speak
at a library conference to be held in June 1996.  I know the publisher of
his book due out in October.  My question is:  do I contact the publisher
to ask about the possibility of his speaking?  What office do I contact?
If I don't contact the publisher, who do I approach?  The author is David
Brin.  If any of you know the best way to contact him (and know how receptive
he might be), I'd appreciate any information you might have.  Thanks so much.
Sandy Moltz [log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 15:14:35 1995
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Date: Fri, 05 May 1995 15:14:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: Humor and SF
To: [log in to unmask]
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Though I agree with Effinger and have struggled to restrain myself, I 
have to whisper that Mike Resnick's recursive "His Award-Winning Science 
Fiction Story" is very funny.

Fiona

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 16:42:54 1995
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Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 16:42:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: BERARD SYLVIE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: From Alain Vaillancourt: Re: Photocopying
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Someone in SF-LIT wrote:

> Not at all - well not me, anyway.  In the UK, I believe the rule is 
> something like "Thou shalt not photocopy the ENTIRE book - but, OK, for 
> research you can grab a bit of it."  I presume that "a bit" is quantified 
> somewhere, but the principle, anyway, is that people are not expected to buy 
> every book that they might conceivably find useful.  After all, there are 
> libraries, and they do have photocopiers in them.  All of which is by way of 
> getting to the uninspiring conclusion that A short story is unlikely to 
> constitute more than "a bit" of any given book and that one could therefore 
> copy it with impunity.  Besides, it's routine on other courses for tutors to 
> pass round offprints of individual articles.  Don't see why this should be 
> different.  Probably not a great addition to the debate, I'm afraid, but 
> there you go...

I don't know if this has been said nor if this has concerns with SF, but 
in Quebec, authors are paid for the photocopies made from their writings. As 
far as I can remember, it is a federal (i.e. Canadian, not Quebecois) 
program. Of course (?), authors don't get paid that much... but I 
remember receiving 37,00$ CAN (didn't I buy a book with this 37,00$?).

Au revoir,

Sylvie Berard
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 16:47:48 1995
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Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 16:46:40 +0059 (EDT)
From: "M.L. Davis" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF and humor
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Although I must admit that when I'm having a "bad brain day" I read 
McCafferey, lately I've decided that my new favs are _Waiting for the 
Galactic Bus_ and _The Snake Oil Wars_ by Parke Godwin (?).  Truly 
wonderful, satirical and on-the-mark.  Also:  this author has some of the
*best* biographical notes that I've ever seen--they are about as funny as 
the books themselves.  I just picked these two out of the SFBC catalogue 
recently, and now I've *got* to find more by this guy!

FWIW,

Marie
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:::  "That which does not kill me, makes me funnier"  :::
::: 				- Dennis Miller       :::
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

On Thu, 4 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Here's a new strain. 
> 
> What's your favorite SF humor book/short story/movie?
> 
> Just asking.
> 
> AllGrill
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 17:09:27 1995
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Date: Fri, 05 May 1995 17:09:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Ellison and Fans
To: [log in to unmask]
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Why don't you take a good hard look at the pros' complaints in
"Xenogenesis". Bob Bloch is annoyed that some kid who was going to
publish 3 volumes of Lefty Feep stories in hardcover ran out of money
after the first one. Jim Gunn is upset that someone in a crowded con
suite didn't know him. These are hardly the kind of devastating insults
that the article implies. If Harlan suffers at the hands of fans, and he
does, it's because no one in the history of this field has done more to
invite such behavior.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 17:10:35 1995
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Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 17:10:35 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi & Why hate Trek ?

 I'll be honest here.
 I knew of the distinction before I came to this list. I always write SF or
Science Fiction. I almost never refer to SF as a whole in speech, but when I
do it is SCI-FI. I would never say SF, too confusing.
 I've only been bothered by the use of 'sci-fi' once:
 When we were discussing the Resnick franchises I informed the list that I
was franchise holder #1701. Mr. Resnick pointed out that I must not have an
SF franchise but rather a 'sci-fi' franchise. He clearly meant it to be
derogatory. (I guess Mr. Resnick doesn't like Trek much, Why not I wonder ?
Better be good else I'll call you Mike? )
 Back to my point, only this once has the term ever bothered me, and only
because it was so pointedly derogatory.
 I don't think that we should really be concerned with what people call it,
we should concern ourselves with making sure that more of the best is exposed.
 Besides would you really be offended if someone next to you in a Toyota said
"Blech, your in a Porch. (Porsche)" I really think that some people find our
material beyond them, for whatever reason, and are jealous. Pity them if you
must, but don't let their loss become an offense to you.
 I really hope this thread is about over, sorry if I fed the fire.
 Let me start a thread here, or try at least. 
 I am a Star Trek fan. (Since terminology was such a recent issue I'll just
say I don't like Trekker or Trekkie, I am OK with Trek Fan.) I've noticed an a
version to Trek on this list. Now I know that Trek has spawned some awful
stories. I know some of you feel that Trek is militaristic, meaning military
without neccessity. (That's a point I'd argue, but later.) In the end I feel
that Trek has spawned some good SF. 
 There are loads of episodes from all the series that have merit. My favorites
 are "All Good Things..." the Next Gen(eration) finale. Ellison's "City on
the Edge of Forever," "The Balance of Terror," "Shore Leave," and I suppose
its obvious I could go on forever. There are good novels out there, and bad
ones believe me.
 What I guess I am asking for is what are your reasons for liking/not liking
Trek ?
 For those of you who can't bear Trek and wish to flame me, my address is
[log in to unmask] I can't wait to read what the rest of you have to say.
 Take Care -Alexander

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 17:16:07 1995
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Barry, as I said, is my closest friend in the field. We have collaborated
on stories, bought from each other for anthologies, and last year I edited
a 250,000-word collection of his recursive science fiction. I think that
gives me a unique insight into his outlook on life. Fill a glass halfway
to the top. I would say it's half full. A pessimist would say it's half
empty. Barry Malzberg would want to know who pissed in it. <g>

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 17:18:33 1995
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George, at least they've -heard- of you. I'm on the list too, and to date
I haven't gotten a single piece of offensive crank mail. I feel neglected.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 17:19:36 1995
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From: BERARD SYLVIE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: humorous SF
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Fri, 5 May 1995, Brian Attebery wrote:

> For satire, Fred Pohl, Joanna Russ (you can hardly get funnier than 
> sections of _The Female Man_).

...and J. Russ' _Extra(ordinary) People_ is (I think) as funny as _TFM_!

Sylvie Berard

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 17:27:35 1995
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I'd also like to add the funniest space opera of all to the list: Harry
Harrison's STAR SMASHERS OF THE GALAXY RANGERS.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 17:31:27 1995
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Date: Fri, 05 May 1995 17:31:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: John Myers Myers
To: [log in to unmask]
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John Myers Myers did the first, and probably definitive, biography of
Doc Holliday; I know, because I used it as my source when I wrote a novel
about Holliday.

Of more immediate interest to this group, he also wrote THE MOON'S FIRE-EATING
DAUGHTER, a not-altogether-brilliant sequel to SILVERLOCK.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 17:38:33 1995
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Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 17:38:33 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF vs Sci-Fi

This thread seems to have gotten extremely long.  Not being a person who is
terribly concerned with being politically correct or saying the right things
the right way as long as the point is made clear.  I suggest we look at it in
one of two ways:

    A: A rose by any other name still smells as sweet.

    B: The infidels have been educated!!!

On with life.

Darkstar


From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 17:49:02 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: Gibson Movie Involvement (correction)
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri,  5 May 95 14:42:11 PDT
Message-Id: <9505052142.0B63B0@martinw>
X-Mailer: SelectMAIL 1.2

In a past message regarding why William Gibson's script for ALIENS 3 
didn't get made into a movie, I wrote:

|First of all, despite all the conjecture I will spout, I suspect that 
|there were dozens, if not hundreds of "back-room" deals and 
|conversations over lunch, etc., that figured into the decision not to 
|use the Gibson script (and to instead go with the ponderous mass that 
|resulted in ALIEN^3).  
.
.
.

|I have a further theory about this decision, but as it is even MORE 
|conjecture, I'll only inflict it on those who would like to hear it 
|(just e-mail me).

In the interest of not spreading lies and pernicious nonsense, I have 
to say the the ALIEN FAQ (which I re-read last night) details much of 
the decision-making process (if it can be called that) that went into 
making/un-making ALIEN^3.  Despite the many deliciously conspiratorial 
details I had cooked up for my personal theory, the truth (at least 
according to the FAQ) is available.

-Martin S. Won




From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 17:58:04 1995
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From: BERARD SYLVIE <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: BERARD SYLVIE <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: BERARD SYLVIE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: The never-ending SF vs Sci-Fi thread
To: SF-LIT <[log in to unmask]>
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Hi,

I have read the SF/Sci-Fi debate with great interest. It wasn't obvious 
to me that using "sci-fi" could be offensive in a certain way even though 
I never use it mostly because the term doesn't exist in French (the only
abreviation *IS* SF).
Now, I know.
I will never try to call it s**-f**.
Not even in my diary.
I promise.

Ciao!

Sylvie Berard
[log in to unmask]
Universite du Quebec a Montreal

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 18:39:28 1995
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From: "Eric R. Nolen" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: John Myers Myers
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Cherie,

In addition to Silverlock, John Myers Myers wrote a book called Harp and 
the blade.  I am not sure if this was the sequal or not but I do know 
that a sequal to Silverlock was released.  Mr. Myers main focus in 
writing was in Western Americana.  He has many books on various topics 
such as Doc Holiday, Tombstone, the foudning of Pheonix (Arizona) and 
quite a few others.  

I am unsure if Harp and the Blade is still in print or not but I do work 
in a rather large used book store(s) in Arizona and have access to a used 
copy if you (or any others) are interested (in this book or any others as 
I do have access to quite an inventory of old and new Science Fiction, 
mostly paperback but some nice hardback finds as well).  Cost would be 
that of the book (I estimate it would not be more than $2.00) and 
shipping.  Just e-mail me if you (or any others) are interested.

Eric Rahn Nolen


From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 18:55:41 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: SF Humour
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Further suggestions:  

	Short story:  Connie Willis, "Cretaceous Park" (delightful
			send-up of academia and academic jargon)
	Novels:       Rudy Rucker, SOFTWARE and WETWARE
	TV:  	      "Red Dwarf"

Might it be possible to carry the listings in this thread a bit further
and speculate on what it is that makes an SF story/novel/show funny?  I
suspect some of it has to be unsuspected or bizarre allusions (which is
a major concern in another thread dealing with the connection between
good SF writing, mainstream writing, and the 'maga-novel' of all 
literature.

Rick

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 19:33:28 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: SF, Literature, Theory ("Intertextuality")
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri,  5 May 95 16:26:37 PDT
Message-Id: <9505052326.256440@martinw>
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John Ronald wrote:

|  There has to be this definite "intertextuality",
|these references and cross-references in "mainstream" literature
|for that work to be considered worthwhile.  

Interesting observation...  I suspect that this phenomenon is 
intimately related to the way the literature is treated in academia.  
Now, I'm no academic, and I suspect that I'll make sweeping 
generalizations and even firmly insert my foot into my mouth a few 
times in what I'm about to say--but that's how we learn, right? 
(providing you all do your part and correct me!)

It seems to me that many of the approaches to the study of literature 
try to describe and evaulate the significance of the work in some 
context.  The context varies on the approach (Psychological, 
Deconstructionist, New Historicism, etc. are some of the ones I've 
heard of), but many of them are focussed on some aspect of culture or 
history.  In order to understand and categorize the work's impact in a 
cultural or historical context, it makes sense to connect that work in 
some way to previous human endeavors (which make up the landscape of 
culture and history).  Literary academicians are likely to home in on 
the literary endeavors that the work seems connected to; that seems 
obvious since that's the field they know best.  It's also much easier 
and more defensible to make connections to other literature if a clear 
reference exists in the work itself.

There's also an argument in here somewhere about writers being doomed 
to be products of their reading experience; since most writers are 
readers first, I might suggest that they cannot help but be influenced 
in some way, no matter how small, by their literary forebearers.  I'll 
save that another thread.

On the subject of SF intertextuality, John also wrote:

|SF works, if written by different authors, can't seem to
|refer to each other nearly as easily as more mainstream
|literature is capable of doing.

I think you're right about the difficulty SF has in referring to other 
SF works to some degree; however, as many have discovered, there's a 
huge pool of folklore and mythology to refer to.  I think that the body 
of SF (as we know it today) isn't old or broad enough to have as much 
reference material as "mainstream fiction."  If we consider that 
"mainstream fiction" can draw all the way back to the Bible and before 
and still be self-referential, I think SF has a promising start but 
still a long ways to go before it can be as richly self-referential as 
"mainstream fiction."

John's example:

|Having Spock read the Star Wars trilogy isn't going to
|work, but having him read Plato (and then comment how
|this relates to some Vulcan philosopher)...this DOES work.

I think it would also work to have Philip K. Dick's androids ruminate 
on Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics--evidence in my mind that SF is 
creeping towards the "intertextual-with-other-SF" state.

One last thought on "intertextuality" (at least for this post):  I 
personally believe that it's valid to gauge the value and impact of a 
literary work by examining its connections/references to other literary 
works.  However, in the context of impact upon society (yesterday's, 
today's, and tomorrow's), I also believe that connections to other 
human endeavors (mainly other art forms) should also be explored and 
studied.  I don't think that anyone would argue that modern authors 
(especially the most recent ones) are only the products of what they 
have read; if we spend time examining their literary roots, then I 
think it makes sense to look at their other sources of inspiration.


Now welcoming all corrections...

-Martin S. Won



From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 21:47:25 1995
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Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 21:41:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Alex Dunlap <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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I am fairly new to this list. I have a question which has arisen due to 
the comments below. Is Mike Resnick in charge of this list? I am not 
trying to be sarcastic. I know he is an author, etc., but I wasn
t aware that he was a muckety muck on the list. 
Nancy Dunlap

On Thu, 4 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Hi Mike,
> 
> I have a little problem: I just received a message from one Jessica
> who thoroughly attempted to chastise and chew out me out for the informal
> message I sent. I calmly (very calmly) explained to her that the
> majority of the messages on this list are INFORMAL, and anything
> funny is to be taken lightly. I got the impression from her that
> she did not appreciate any of my messages (even though I poked fun
> at myself in the second message). Did you have a REAL problem with
> my messages?
> 
> Anyway, I just wanted to inform you of this. I am forwarding her message to
> you - I did not like her tone, and have replied in kind to her. She
> attempted to keep this private, however. If anyone has the right to
> chastise me, it's you, or either the list moderator. She does not.
>                                                        - Sean -
> 
 
> 
From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 22:14:55 1995
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   Fri, 05 May 95 22:14:35 EDT
Date: Fri, 5 May 95 22:13:41 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Trek Pros/cons

Trek appears to be the Dallas Cowboys of SF, you either love it or hate it.

I often see people "flame" Trek for it's short comings, how it shows a
militaristic viewpoint of the future, and these same people turn up their
noses to the series and it's many spin-offs, depicting themselves as
superior SF fans because they put Trek in it's place.

I try to accept it for what it is, and for the audience that it is talking
to.  It's a TV show that must find a solution within 15 minutes (including
commercials) to a problem stated in 45 minutes.  It is, IMHO, enjoyable
to watch understanding the limitations given network TV.  If the show was
written at the level of half the good SF novels, it would never make it
out of the editing room.

B5 is a step in the right direction, again IMHO, and the stories deeper
than Trek's, but B5 is working on a story that will take 5 years of
episodes to finish, so more allowances are taken.  I believe if Trek had
not blazed the path of SF television, we would never have seen even the
beginnings of JMS's show.  Trek, et al, showed that SF could be taken in
and enjoyed by "normal" people.

Yes, I go to the conventions.  I have to admit, there are a few people that
visit these gatherings that need to "get a life" as Shatner said on SNL,
these people live and breath Trek, but again, that's me imparting my life
as a benchmark on theirs.  They seem quite happy with it, so good for them.

I just consider it a small slice of my interests.

I feel one thing Trek has brought us, and that is a larger audience of
people that expand out from this to reading more SF and F.



     Later,

Robert D. Bair
IBM Charlotte     RDBAIR at CLTVM1
CSP Test Engineering Support
[log in to unmask]
AR: WB3AHC, 1st Class FCC: P1-3-17298, Tripoli: #2253, NAR: #60163

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 22:23:22 1995
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Date:         Fri, 05 May 95 22:17:14 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi, etc.etc.etc... -Reply
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 5 May 1995 11:33:26 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

I think perhaps there is a miscommunication going on here.  People seem
upset that some people on the list want science fiction called sf.
They don't think the world will change for these people.

Well, neither do the people who want you to call it sf.  Nobody on this
list expects PEOPLE MAGAZINE, or USA TODAY or TV GUIDE to suddenly
start using a preferred term because the practitioners like it.  And
movie and tv studios won't change, because no matter how much the
people actually making the movie or show love the stuff, the marketers
only want to cram it down as many throats as they can--preferably with
Neilson boxes attached to the throats.

All we are saying is that on this list, it would be nice to be polite to
the people with the strong preference, and the strong stake in the genre
not just as neat books, but as a community with a long history that is home
for many of us.

Camille

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 22:41:25 1995
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Date:         Fri, 05 May 95 22:36:12 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Writing/Reading and "Literature"
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 5 May 1995 12:18:37 -0400 from
 <ougKuiper<@loc.gov>

      Doug, in graduate school I was told not to bring in any sf or fantasy
to a writing class, that it was trash and the teacher didn't want to waste
the class's time with it.  On the other hand, he picked out two major flaws
in my work in general which, when I corrected them, lead to selling a fantasy
novel.  AS for his work, well, I walked out on a play he wrote about the
trial of Goebbels, I think--deadly boring and pompous, with nothing of
significance to say about any of the subjects it pretended to consider.

On the other hand, my poetry teacher liked my sf poetry, and even got it--
I remember once he said to another student, in lowering tones, "No, Bing,
it was not a funny poem."  Teacher was right of course--it wasn't.

I always figure that success is the best revenge, though.

Camille

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 23:16:51 1995
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From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi & Why hate Trek ?
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 5 May 1995 20:05:41 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]>

Alexander--there are a handful of episodes that TNG did that were simply
marvelous.  I am terrible at titles of eps, but the one where Picard
lived the life of the man on the dying planet was wonderful, and won a
Hugo.  The two-parter where Picard was taken prisoner by the Cardassian,
I think, was shockingly painful.  The line where he said, "But I saw five,"
to Troi just kicked the breath right out of me.

But I deplore the fact that they lost their sense of humor.  We haven't
had anything of the caliber of PIECE OF THE ACTION, or TRIBBLES in any of
the newer incarnations.  Not that I watch media, or anything, who me?
<she looks behind her, indignant and suspicious, and walks away..> CAmille

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May  5 23:44:25 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi & Why hate Trek ?
To: [log in to unmask]
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When Star Trek first appeared on TV back in 1966 or thereabouts,
it was like a breath of fresh air. Most TV shows of that era -- Gilligan's
Island, Beverly Hillbillies, even Lost in Space -- were aimed at 5-year-old
mentalities. Trek was aimed at maybe the 9-year-old level, which was a
quantum step forward. But let's never forget that Trek was state-of-the-art
sf circa 1934. Women wore 6-inch skirts and never said anything more
important than "All hailing frequencies open", the captain and first
officer regularly left the ship in hostile territory, the ship itself
could make a left turn at light speeds in seconds rather than years,
and great moral questions were resolved in 44 minutes every week.

Do I like it? Not very much. Do I think written sf, even the worst
written sf, is better than the best televised sf? Absolutely. Do I
think the term "sci-fi" should be applied to TV and movies? Let's never
forget who created it and what it was created -for-, which happened to
be bad movies and TV shows pretending they were good sf.

-- Mike Resnick

From cstu  Sat May  6 08:49:13 1995
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Date: Sat, 6 May 1995 08:49:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Oops, Durn listproc
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Someone sent a message last night asking a question about Mike Resnick 
and his place on the list.  It seems LISTPROC ate the message (I approved 
it, honest!).  There is neither hide nor hair of it in the files I can 
access; is it possible for you to send it again and I will shepherd it 
through the system personally this time.  Thanks!
Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Sat May  6 00:05:43 1995
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Date: Sat, 6 May 1995 00:05:42 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Alternate media

Camille,

You said:

>I keep screaming "hypertext, I need hypertext" for.  Things where the next
>chapter could be any one of three, depending on your interests in the
related
>topics.  I am growing increasingly impatient with the limits of linearity
>of the word frozen in print.
>
Camille,

Have you considered the use of the  help file format  used by the Windows
operating system? You could purchase one of the many help compilers available
to
programmers and quickly produce hypertext documents which are in a standard
format
and could be accessed using the windows help facility.

Additionally there is a wonderful quick and dirty hypertext facility
available for free
from ETH Zurich. It has the disadvantage of being completely non-standard. To
read
your documents everyone would have to have the system. The creator of the
document
would have to learn the non-standard system pretty thoroughly; the user would
only
need a few lines of instruction.

The system is called Oberon. It can be downloaded by FTP from:
   neptune.inf.eth.ch  on the  /pub/oberon/windows  directory.

If you want more information on the Oberon and its "Hypertext text without
surprises" I could provide it.

I was going to send this to you personally, but everything I try to send you
directly bounces, so here it is on the list.

Gary
Gary L. Swaty




From [log in to unmask]  Sat May  6 00:17:40 1995
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Date: Sat, 6 May 1995 00:17:40 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Here Goes...

Yes Cuddly....today is also my first day on the subscribe list and I too have
received more mail in my first day than in my 3 years here on AOL. It's a bit
overwhelming. I just hope I can keep up.

From [log in to unmask]  Sat May  6 01:45:50 1995
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Date: Sat, 06 May 1995 01:45:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Sturgeon Nominees
To: [log in to unmask]
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Sturgeon Award Final Nominees


Michael Bishop, "Cri de Coeur," 9/94 Asimov's

Ed Bryant "The Fire that Scours," 10/94 Omni

Pat Cadigan, "Paris in June," 9/94 Omni

Rick Cook & Peter L. Manly, "Symphony for Skyfall," 7/94 Analog

Greg Egan, "Cocoon," 5/94 Asimov's

Michael Flynn, "Melodies of the Heart," 1/94 Analog

David Gerrold, "The Martian Child," 9/94 F&SF

Albert Goldbarth, "The Two Domains," Spring 94 Beloit Poetry Journal

Ursula K. LeGuin, "Another Story," 8/94 Tomorrow

Ursula K. LeGuin, "Forgiveness Day," 11/94 Asimov's

Barry Malzberg, "Understanding Entropy," 7/94 SF Age

Maureen McHugh, "Nekropolis," 4/94 Asimov's

Mike Resnick, "Seven Views of Olduvai Gorge," 10-11/94 F&SF, & Axolotl

Brian Stableford, "Les Fleurs du Mal," 10/94 Asimov's

These come from the distillation of the "Macrolist" (Tangent's 
1994 Suggested Reading List, published in the Nov-Dec 1994 
Tangent, p. 138; 179 stories recommended by Tangent reviewers and 
leading editors in the sf and fantasy field) into a "Microlist" 
(obtained from a top-five ranking by Tangent reviewers and leading 
editors; 70+ stories) into the above 14 stories (which were at the 
top of the ranked list). 

These 14 stories now go to the final judges -- Frederick Pohl, 
Judith Merril, and James Gunn.  The 1994 Theodore Sturgeon 
Memorial Award for the best short story in science fiction will be 
presented at the 1995 Campbell Conference at the J. Wayne and 
Elsie M. Gunn Center for the Study of Science Fiction, University 
of Kansas, Lawrence, Kansas, on July 8th. 

(Above list provided by Christopher McKitterick, Director, 1994 
Sturgeon Award Nominating Committe via Dave Truesdale, Editor, 
Tangent.) 


From [log in to unmask]  Sat May  6 04:22:40 1995
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Date: Sat, 06 May 1995 04:22:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Pros on Sci-Fi
To: [log in to unmask]
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It's probably time to stop the sf/sci-fi debate, but I thought 
lest you feel this is just one writer's gored ox, I would borrow 
some public statements on the subject which are all on file in the 
CompuServe library. Each writer has given me permission to lift 
the quotes:

-- Mike Resnick

                    ******************

It's pretty simple.  The term "sf" goes back to the fairly early 
days of science fiction.  Originally, when Hugo Gernsback 
established the genre commercially by starting Amazing, he called 
it "scientifiction." (Scientific fiction, get it?) The 
abbreviation was "stf." The term never caught on hugely (though 
cognescenti still say "stf" to each other sometimes), and when 
Gernsback was forced out of Amazing and formed another magazine he 
called it by a new name, "science fiction," and the abbreviation 
"sf" started. 

Some years later, a fan named Forrest J Ackerman, or Forry 
Ackerman, or 4SJ Ackerman, invented the term "sci-fi" by analogy 
with "hi-fi." It's a pretty weak analogy to start out with, and 
dated by now, but it caught on for this reason: Ackerman was the 
editor of Famous Monsters of Filmland magazine.  He's always been 
a fan of huge enthusiasm, but little discretion, and he loved 
trashy sf movies without recognizing them as trash. He popularized 
"sci-fi" vigorously, and the media picked it up--in connection to 
the ghastly rubber-suit monster movies.  And lo, for years when 
non-fans referred to "sci-fi," they were talking about the worst 
kind of tripe that could be seen in the theater (before the 
success of 2001 and later Star Wars financially legitimized the 
movie genre), and not about a literary tradition extending back 
past Wells and through Heinlein, Clarke and other writers. 

Most fans, therefore, traditionally hate the term.  Almost (though 
not always) it comes from the lips of someone who doesn't read the 
stuff, assumes it's all rampaging robots and blasters, and speaks 
with ignorant condescension about it. So we have to consciously 
remind ourselves that many people just use the term because they 
don't have the historical perspective of outsiders' contempt that 
still affects us. 

-- Martha Soukup

                   *******************

Sci-fi is pronounced skiffy.  It comes in two flavors:  smooth and 
crunchy-style.  The crunchy-style is more likely to stick to the 
roof of your mind. 

-- David Gerrold

                   *******************

It's not a matter of Thought Police. Some of us can remember when 
you would hide your sf magazine or paperback inside a Playboy 
ripoff because the latter was more socially acceptable than what 
has come to be known as "sci-fi". It is not a social stoicism or a 
sign of mental and cultural interiority to read sf in this day and 
age...but that's only because so many of us fought so long and 
hard to change it, in the public consciousness, from sci-fi to sf. 

-- Mike Resnick

                    *******************

The short version is, Sci-fi means bad 50's monsters from space 
movies.  The story behind that is very long and if you want it, 
I'll give it to you.  But those who have worked in the field for 
years, such as Harlan Ellison, react very unfavorably to having 
their writing equated to bad 50's monsters from space movies. 

Full story:  Back when the rocks were cooling, John Campbell 
attempted to use the term scientific fiction and shortened it to 
scientifiction.  That caught on like raw cod for breakfast.  So 
the term science fiction arose. 

In the 1950's, an icon of Fandom, one Forrest J Ackerman, started 
working for Warner Magazines (not related to today's Warner 
Publishing) on a fan mag called Famous Monsters of Filmland (and 
others to follow). Forry, being something of a media junkie and 
gadfly and damn near ubiquitious, became something of a minor 
celebrity.  He agented for some writers and he attended nearly 
every important convention, he was well known from back in the 
days of First Fandom, he hung out with Julie Schwartz, Jack 
Williamson, Ray Bradbury, and the like. 

He became, in short, something of a fixture on the scene.  But his 
thing was always the ENTIRE range of media, including ANYTHING 
that called itself science fiction.  He focused on bad hollywood 
films of the 1930's to 1950's, from interesting film noir stuff 
like Lugosi and Karloff's THE BLACK CAT to the absolute dregs, 
PLAN NINE FROM OUTER SPACE and ATTACK OF THE ROBOT MONSTERS. 

Forry coined the term Sci-Fi in the 1950's, attempting to come up 
with a short term that media types would employ.  He used "Hi-Fi" 
as it's root, an inapt source, IMHO.  He was also quoted a lot by 
the Hollywood Press about anything and all things Sci-Fi.  To this 
day his license plate reads, "Sci-Fi." 

The problem stems from the fact that because of Forry, others 
began employing the term Sci-Fi as if all science fiction were 
ATTACK OF THE ROBOT MONSTERS. The literature was attempting to 
pull itself out of the pulp era then, with writers like Heinlein 
moving out of juveniles into some serious stuff, Asimov, Blish, 
Budrys, Kornbluth, Matheson, Bester and others were begining the 
movement that hit it's stride in the early 1960's and took off 
from there.  Harlan Ellison was writing and by 1964 (I think) was 
doing a wonderful column about television for the L.A. Free Press. 
In short, lots of serious stuff was being done by lots of really 
fine writers. 

But it was still being labled "sci-fi," (which by the mid-60's had 
come to be called "skiffy" in the publishing business) and because 
of the associations with bad monster movies, WAS NOT BEING TAKEN 
SERIOUSLY. 

Given that, some writers, Harlan among them, began to react with 
strong emotion to the term.  It is Science Fiction or SF or (in 
Harlan's case) speculative fiction.  But it is no longer "sci-fi." 
CREATURE FROM THE BLACK LAGOON is Sci-Fi. "Hitler Painted Roses" 
is speculative fiction. 

For good, bad, or indifferent reasons, "sci-fi" pisses some people 
off.  If the object of the exercise is to piss people off, then by 
all means use the term. If the object is to discuss science 
fiction, use another term. 

-- Raymond E. Feist

                    ********************


From shal  Sat May  6 09:22:58 1995
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From: "Stephanie A. Hall" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF, Literature, Theory ("Intertextuality")
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I also enjoy fiction that refers to or bases itself on other works.  But 
for todays readers and todays writers that can pose problems.  Americans 
are a diverse people, the world is getting to be a smaller place, and 
speculative fiction in particular attempts to deal with a broader view 
of human history.  It is foolish artistically and provincial in the 
science fiction realm to assume that your readers have read any 
particular set of classics.  

Now, speaking as someone who escaped with an MA and my sanity from 
Literary studies to get my PhD in Folklore, I think mainly this is a 
great thing.  Nobody used to include "The Tale of Genji" among the works 
in a US classical literature course.  If it wasn't British or European 
it just wasn't great literature.  It is only rather recently 
that American works could be studied as part of a US Lit major's core 
studies (our British cousins may be amused at this).  Getting out of that 
narrow view of what literature is is great for all of us -- but hard on 
writers who want to make reference.

One way I have seen this handled is for writers to assume that the 
reader may discover the work being referenced through their work --  so 
not making the work being referenced prerequisite reading.  That isn't 
easy, but it is possible.  

What can writers refer to that everyone will know these days?  Rock song 
lyrics, lines from hit movies, a current political misquote?  Folklore? 
(One reason fantasy writers return again and again to Arthurian legend is 
that everyone knows it.) I guess one of the challenges of being a writer 
these days is figuring out what your audience knows.

Stephanie

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist           The Library of Congress
American Folklife Center               preserves and houses
Library of Congress                    countless ideas and opinions.
Washington, DC 20540-8100              Those expressed here 
[log in to unmask]                           are my own.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


From shal  Sat May  6 09:53:21 1995
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From: "Stephanie A. Hall" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trek Pros/cons
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Colleen can stomp me if I get any of this wrong - but here goes:

The query, or part of it, was what place does Trek have on this list?  
This particular list was concieved as a place where people studying sf, 
the sf community, or interested in scholarly study of same could hang 
out.  No particular media was excluded in that concept. SF-LIT, or 
literary sf, was chosen from a group of possible titles for the list - 
but was not intended to keep the list exclusively to discussion of paper 
media.  There have been some very interesting scholarly looks at Trek and 
other TV sf.  Certainly discussion of those aspects would be most 
appropriate here.  Camille Bacon-Smith, on this list, studies media sf and 
media fans and we do want to hear the latest from her!

On the other hand, there are lots of other lists where fans of Trek and 
other shows can hang out and chat. I don't think, with all the traffic we 
already have, that we need to become another one of those lists. That is 
just a practical caution on avoiding too much overlap with other lists - 
which might kill us.  

Stephanie
(who has no idea how many times she has seen the original episodes)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist           The Library of Congress
American Folklife Center               preserves and houses
Library of Congress                    countless ideas and opinions.
Washington, DC 20540-8100              Those expressed here 
[log in to unmask]                           are my own.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


From [log in to unmask]  Sat May  6 13:17:46 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
Subject: Military's toys and habits in SF

 I recently remarked that the military get all the coolest toys first. 
 It was pointed out to me that by the time the equipment reaches the
fleet/field it is already outdated by Micheal Fisher.
 Mr. Fisher I agree that the equipment is outdated technically when it
reaches the field. This is particularly true of naval vessels. And even more
true of spacecraft.
 There is a practical reason. The equipment needs to be ruggedized. This is a
somewhat difficult process, and one made unneccessarily difficult by the
government, but a neccessary task nonetheless. It is my understanding that
the latest greatest Submarine systems are based on embedded i860 processors,
which are about as fast as a 486/25 sx. All in all not too shabby, but
certainly well behind the cutting edge.
 The militaries requirements for procurement include one major hassle: The
ability to be field serviced by the operator. A space agency of any sort has
the same problem a thousand fold. I'd hate to be on the shuttle when the
navigational processor packages failed if I couldn't service them personally.
Sub crews are under almost as stringent requirements. As for the rest of the
military, I just don't know, but from what I've seen I wouldn't expect much
as far as users servicing anything.
 Trying to get back to SF, any space agency is going to have to take some
advice from the Navy. On a number of fronts. 
 Lets start with those pretty unifroms that they wear in Starfleet. It isn't
military for military's sake. All those colors signify the job of the
crewmember. Just like the Navy. Go walk around a carrier deck. Everyone has a
job to do, and everyone has to know what everyone else's job is so they can
stay out of the way. Unlike the traditional military these Naval personnel
don't have time to get close and see what so and so is doing. The guys who
fuel planes wear a different color from the guys who load ordnance, which is
different from the guys who run the lifts, again different from the guys who
run the steam catapults for launching aircraft and so on. I propose that on
the Enterprise they limit the colors to what the producers like for
simplicity of presentation. Accuracy however, can merit it.
 Another thing I've heard everyone complain about is how everyone in Star
Trek seems to be able to fix most everything. Well yeah, member the shuttle
example. It gets worse. Your toolin' around a gazillion light years from
nowhere and all your whatsits start breaking. The Cheif engineer has to keep
the whole ship running and coordinate repair efforts. That means you have to
do your part. If the Cheif engineer is dead YOU have to be ready to take his
place.
 Now imagine taking responsibility for getting all those people trained for
all those jobs. Then you've got to organize them into ships that are entirely
self sustaining. Well you might say all sorts of civilian organizations can
do that, look at retail. HA!! How robust and redundant is the retail or
franchisee systems of corporate organization ? Imagine taking out various
people from various departments simultaneously, setting the place on fire and
shoot it at a Black Hole. I doubt Sears could sell its way out of that kind
of trouble, if selling was the way to do it. Needless to say selling is much
easier than Astrogation and Propulsion Engineering and firefighting, much
less all of th above simultaneously. If I was working at that Sears I'd just
leave. The only organization that has been proven to be able to handle these
kinds of disasters is the military.
 We should remember these radical organizational feats as the primary
accomplishments of any military, particularly succesful ones. The near
impossible task of putting large numbers of personnel in the field with
robust survival and combat equipment is the specialty of this highly
organized system.
 Now what I just said may seem oxymoronic to you, but look at the Antarctic.
Of all the nations participating in research there not one has established an
outpost without the involvment of its military. The Antarctic is a gentle and
homely example of what space will be like. When Antarctica is easy civilians
will move in and the military will move out. Low Earth orbit is becoming easy
now so civilians are moving in. (Our past accomplishments are very militarily
organized, with large numbers of military personnell involved. Look at Apollo
and Soyuz.) ESA and NASA are very civilian now and will remain so until our
next leap in capability. Then they will either involove the military or they
will become very military in nature and organization. I hope for the latter. 
 Or better yet for a real sociological break through, the first one in
recorded history. Maybe I'll join a sociology forum and ask about this. Any
sociologists out there ? Do we have something brewing on the horizon that's
radically different and maybe even more efficient ??
 Well I think that's enough for now. I'll climb back onto the soapbox later.
 Alexander [log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Sat May  6 13:17:52 1995
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Date: Sat, 6 May 1995 13:17:51 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF and humor

In a message dated 95-05-05 13:57:02 EDT,Mr. Woolrich wrote:

>markw - wondering what on earth the origin of the name AllGrill is.
>
>
 I think it means he/she/they are gonna Grill us All about SF.

-Alexander [log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Sat May  6 13:34:10 1995
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I am not in charge of this liist. I am not a muckety muck, whatever
that is (and it sounds messy). I'm just a guy who occasionally
contributes to it, and answers any questions asked of him. 

And while I'll be happy to take full responsibility for my answers,
I am most definitely not responsible for the questions that are asked.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Sat May  6 13:39:05 1995
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Date: Sat, 6 May 1995 13:39:04 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: SF Humor

> Here's a new strain. 
> 
> What's your favorite SF humor book/short story/movie?
> 
> Just asking.
> 
> AllGrill
> 

Novels: Spider Robinson's Callahan's Crosstime Saloon books and their
spinoffs. Alan Dean Foster's Spellsinger series. Craig Shaw Gardner's Tales
of the Cineverse. Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's trilogy. The MythAdventures
series by Robert Lyn Asprin.
Short Fiction: "Jesus At The Bat" by Esther Friesner (F&SF) had me so
enchanted and amused that I did something with it I have NEVER done with
another short story. I stopped reading it silently and began reading it aloud
to savor the prose on two levels. Yes, I was home alone at the time. :) I
wish I'd written it, so I could do a reading of it at a convention!
Movies: Weird Science. Princess Bride. Wizard of Speed and Time (though it's
more fantasy-autobiography, IMHO). Earth Girls are Easy. Project A-Ko (all
four). Any Dirty Pair film. Any Urusei Yatsura film. Those Darn Daleks (fan
film).

*whimsy on*

Sorry to do this as an amateur, Mr. Effinger, sir. But I do need to practice
while I'm working on becoming a pro, don't I?

*whimsy off*

-Brenda

From [log in to unmask]  Sat May  6 14:10:39 1995
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Date: Sat, 6 May 1995 11:11:03 GMT
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi, etc.etc.etc...

You know, if sci-fi is really that insulting (and never really mattered to me
one way or another) then I should probably not get the custom license
plates I ordered: "SIFINUT". I wouldn't want thousands of angry SF
fans chasing me...

Clay "Sifinut" Gediman

Regards
From [log in to unmask]  Sat May  6 15:15:58 1995
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Date: Sat, 6 May 1995 15:15:58 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Alternate media for Camille

 Sorry everyone I don't have Camille's address and neither did the message I
am replying to.

 Camille,
  Try looking into HTML. (HyperText Markup Language.) This is the standard
hypertext language used on the World Wide Web. It has the advantages of wide
distribution and platform independence. 
  Hope that helps.
  Feel free to send me any questions you might have.
  Take care -Alexander [log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Sat May  6 15:16:02 1995
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Date: Sat, 6 May 1995 15:16:01 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re:  Why hate Trek ? and SF Technology Acceptance

 In response to Mr. Resnick on this thread:
 I wasn't alive when Trek came out in the 60's but I do know from history
that it was remarkably forward looking despite its flaws.
 You mention how little women said or wore. I'll add that when a woman had
anything to say she was inevitably the bad guy.
 I'll also point out that Trek opened a lot of doors. When Nichelle Nichols
wanted to leave Trek, for the reason that her role was too minor, Dr. King
spoke with her. In his humble opinion what she did was aquantum leap forward
for women and blacks. He emplored her to stay on the show. After that Ms.
Nichols broke new ground, being involoved in the first televised interracial
kiss with Shatner.
 If Mr. Roddenberry had his way Spock would not have been first officer. That
task would have fallen to Majel Barrett, as "No 1." It is also noteworthy
that on Trek for the first time on TV we got images of a truly
interacial/intercultural group trying to solve problems together.
 In response to your comments on Trek technology, well it Science FICTION.
Why really even bother rationalizing any of it, except from the viewpoint of
trying to get there technically from here. It is just as unlikely that
superluminal velocities will ever be reached as it is to be able to make
fairly sharp left turns at that speed.
 As to the rest, those were creative decisions. It is very interesting to see
our principles in real action rather than to simply watch them. There was a
very "Cowboy" in those times from my understanding. Next Generations approach
of Having the Captain stay on board is certainly more realistic ,and ,in my
opinion, still dramatic.
 I think there was awful Trek, like "Spocks Brain", heavy handed Trek like
"Omega Glory" and downright good SF/Trek like "City on the Edge of Forever."
I agree with you that it is nearly impossible to write good SF for the hourly
TV format. It is impossible to do it consistently on a weekly basis.
 In response to Allain Vaillancourt who wrote:
>I personally groan each time they explain replicators or holodecks as an 
>extension of transporter technology becauses it clashes with the logic 
>in the use of transporters for humans...
(This probably belongs on some more Trek related lists)
 In a word, NO. If a method evolved that would allow matter/energy conversion
precise enough to reconstruct humans and their minds, it is safe to say that
the process could be used to convert an energy reserve to matter on an as
needed basis provided only that the description of the matter was available
and that the object described was within the precision limits of the system.
E=mc^2
E/c^2=m.
 The reason I write this, is because I have found that for some reason people
will accept on speculative technology and not another. I don't know why not.
I believe superluminal travel is possible, because tachyons, if we ever prove
their existence move faster than light. I just talked about matter/energy
conversion. We already have beam weapons. Electronic sheilding is already
available in primitive forms. Star Trek's Hypo Spray was developed for field
use by the US Army. Those neato medical/diagnostic beds are a short technical
step away from MRI and CAT scans. We are getting into talking computers,
computers with solid modeling capacities. We have already created dangerously
intelligent life in computer labs.
 As far as counterintuituve technologies go they already abound. Try on your
Quantum Mechanics hat. You remember the question about the tree in the woods,
does it make a sound ? Well according to Quantum Mechanics it can't fall
until someone/thing attempts to observe it. Then it will probably make a
sound but there is a slight possibility it'll make light instead. (Real
slight, for practical purposes impossible, but existent)
 I guess what I'm saying is that you shouldn't ever look at something in SF
and say,"That's Impossible." One more way to look at it is to say that as our
technology level gets higher we will look more and more like magicians and
eventually gods to our ancestors.
 Well I think that's enough for now kiddies. Someone recently remarked that
they've recieved more mail from this list recently than they have in all the
years they've been on AOL. Well I am starting to write way too much more than
I used to.
 Take care -Alexander [log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Sat May  6 15:20:35 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF and humor

the Wizard of Speed and time is available on video and laser disc.
I know you can get the video from movies unlimited - I'll post their address 
on Monday when I get a chance to go home and get it for you.

Patty Silva
[log in to unmask]

(I have a copy of it and I've met Mike, a great guy)
8-)

From [log in to unmask]  Sun May  7 00:06:13 1995
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Subject: Ellison and Fans
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sat, 6 May 1995 21:06:11 -0700 (PDT)
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Mike Resnick wrote:

Why don't you take a good hard look at the pros' complaints in
"Xenogenesis". Bob Bloch is annoyed that some kid who was going to publish
3 volumes of Lefty Feep stories in hardcover ran out of money after the
first one. Jim Gunn is upset that someone in a crowded con suite didn't
know him. These are hardly the kind of devastating insults that the
article implies. If Harlan suffers at the hands of fans, and he does, it's
because no one in the history of this field has done more to invite such
behavior. 

Mike:

	Maybe I should have used a winking smiley. While I've seen fans 
being outrageously rude to writers, I have also seen them being unusually 
considerate. I have no intention of arguing the issue, or of defending or 
attacking Ellison. I was mentioning an ironic incident, and nothing more. 
If I had realized how strongly you felt on the subject, I would have made 
myself clearer. You'd think that somebody in my job could communicate 
better, wouldn't you?

-- 

Bruce Byfield ([log in to unmask])			
English Department, Simon Fraser University
Burnaby, B. C. Canada V5A 1S6 604-291-3136		

From [log in to unmask]  Sun May  7 00:12:53 1995
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Dick Awards
To: [log in to unmask]
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	People at the local book store were wondering who had won the 
Dick Award this year.
	Anybody know?
-- 
From [log in to unmask]  Sun May  7 01:01:27 1995
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Date: Sun, 7 May 1995 01:01:26 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Trek Pros/cons

Your point was well made and immediately ignored! You seem so wishy-washy in
your viewpoint that it moved me to reply! First, as you say, there are NO
restrictions on the format of the SF or are there any "taboo" subjects. Then
go on to say that perhaps it's better not discussed here. Being a watcher of
Trek in all of it's incarnations, but not necessarilly a Trekkie, Trekker or
what have you, I think that it's definately an OPEN topic here. And why not!
Trek is a valid SF Topic and is established as such. Colleen! Get off the
fence. 

From cstu  Sun May  7 19:58:52 1995
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From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Trek Pros/cons
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Okay, I have check the archives files for May (available to me as moderator; 
coming soon to you through MARVEL) and yes, I did send a message saying 
no science fiction topic would be taboo, BUT I did not then as for the 
Trek thread to be killed; that was another subscriber.  I was very 
confused upon reading the below, as you can understand.  So I have gotten 
off the fence, at least as far as this topics goes. :-)
Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, [log in to unmask]
Recently befuddled Moderator of SF-LIT

On Sun, 7 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Your point was well made and immediately ignored! You seem so wishy-washy in
> your viewpoint that it moved me to reply! First, as you say, there are NO
> restrictions on the format of the SF or are there any "taboo" subjects. Then
> go on to say that perhaps it's better not discussed here. Being a watcher of
> Trek in all of it's incarnations, but not necessarilly a Trekkie, Trekker or
> what have you, I think that it's definately an OPEN topic here. And why not!
> Trek is a valid SF Topic and is established as such. Colleen! Get off the
> fence. 
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Sun May  7 02:45:58 1995
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Date: Sun, 07 May 1995 02:45:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Ellison and Fans
To: [log in to unmask]
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You just happened to push one of my buttons. I've been a pro for well
over a quarter of a century, and during all that time I've never been
treated with anything but courtesy and respect by fandom. And the same
applies for most pros I know.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Sun May  7 02:50:05 1995
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From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Humor. And: Why hate Trek ? Why not if it is done interestingly?
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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And vice versa:

Why love Trek?  Why not if you can get something interesting out of it?

On Sat, 6 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Alexander--there are a handful of episodes that TNG did that were simply
> marvelous.  I am terrible at titles of eps, but the one where Picard
> lived the life of the man on the dying planet was wonderful, and won a
> Hugo.  The two-parter where Picard was taken prisoner by the Cardassian,
> I think, was shockingly painful.  The line where he said, "But I saw five,"
> to Troi just kicked the breath right out of me.

The Hugo winner was "The Inner light", aired in 1992 for the first time, 
with a teleplay by Morgan Gendel and Peter Allan Fields and story by 
Morgan Gendel.  The two-parter was "Chain of command" with Ronald D. 
Moore and Frank Abatemarco responsible for teleplay an story.

I agree about the lack of purpose-built funny episodes in the last 8 
years, but we have been given some splendid short performances in the 
tradition of Buster Keaton each time Brent Spiner has been given some 
uproarious lines to deliver with his deadpan face.  And, of course very 
recently Robert Picardo has shown himself more than apt at delivering 
sarcasm or engaging in more than simply comical repartee (given the 
different level at which you could listen to it) with less gifted 
counterparts or with Ethan Phillips.  I enjoy it a lot because I was 
expecting much worse, thinking that no one could do a comical holographic 
character as well as Chris Barrie (Arnold Rimmer in _Red_Dwarf_)

And of course, There is always Q.

I am a great fan of Shakespeare's _A_Midsummer_Night's_Dream_ (or at 
least those renderings of it which do not take themselves too seriously) 
so whenever I see Q about, I just can't help thinking of Puck flitting 
around and commenting what fools these mortals be, while at the same time 
provoking us to note what blundering twits these gods be.

Wonderful satire!

And if you think John deLancie is too tall too be considered as a 
convincing Puck, then you have been too impressed by Mickey Rooney's 
interpretation of the role.  There have been tall and gangling Pucks 
before.  Just look at the young wanabee thespian in the play within 
_The_Dead_Poet_Society_.

With that point of view, episodes like _deja-Q_ and _Q-Less_ are (for me) 
much more funny than _The_trouble_with_tribbles_ and _Shore_Leave_.  In 
them, you have both straight humor (as in the instant when Sisko clobbers 
Q and we can have a belly laugh at his dazed reaction to this) and 
sarcastic comments on the human condition.

By this you can conclude that  my favorite piece of humoristic writing in 
the domain of science fiction and fantasy is _A_Midsummer_Night's_Dream_ 
by William Shakespeare.

Au revoir!

DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask]



From [log in to unmask]  Sun May  7 03:03:54 1995
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Date: Sun, 7 May 1995 00:03:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fran Skene <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Too many messages
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Thu, 4 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Is there any way to keep down the personal messages.  Additionally,
> perhaps everyone can limit themselves to 2 or 3 messages.  Thanks I am
> getting overwhelmed.  Greg

***
So am I, to the extent of being on the verge of unsubbing for a while. 
The personal messages, and the amusing one or two sentence conversations
that go on and on, use up time with a delete key that is better spent on
my novel... 

Cheers,   Fran

From [log in to unmask]  Sun May  7 09:11:21 1995
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Date: Sun, 7 May 1995 08:11:45 -0500
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Kevin Runyon)
Subject: Re: Alternate media

>Camille,
>
>You said:
>
>>I keep screaming "hypertext, I need hypertext" for.  Things where the next
>>chapter could be any one of three, depending on your interests in the
>related
>>topics.  I am growing increasingly impatient with the limits of linearity
>>of the word frozen in print.
>>
>Camille,
>
>Have you considered the use of the  help file format  used by the Windows
>operating system? You could purchase one of the many help compilers available
>to
>programmers and quickly produce hypertext documents which are in a standard
>format
>and could be accessed using the windows help facility.
>
>Additionally there is a wonderful quick and dirty hypertext facility
>available for free
>from ETH Zurich. It has the disadvantage of being completely non-standard. To
>read
>your documents everyone would have to have the system. The creator of the
>document
>would have to learn the non-standard system pretty thoroughly; the user would
>only
>need a few lines of instruction.
>
>The system is called Oberon. It can be downloaded by FTP from:
>   neptune.inf.eth.ch  on the  /pub/oberon/windows  directory.
>
>If you want more information on the Oberon and its "Hypertext text without
>surprises" I could provide it.
>
>I was going to send this to you personally, but everything I try to send you
>directly bounces, so here it is on the list.
>
>Gary
>Gary L. Swaty
>
>
>
>
>
Microsoft has released a Word 6.0 (for Windows)  hypertext add-on called
"Word Internet Assistant."  It converts word documents to hypertext and has
a Web browsing feature. It's quite good, but I prefer Netscape to do my surfing.

It's available form Microsoft via FTP at ftp.microsoft.com.  The file is
called WORDIA.EXE.

Kev
Kevin Runyon
[log in to unmask]


"an alliance is nothing more than two parties who think that they can
benefit more by screwing the public rather than each other..."


From shal  Sun May  7 10:34:12 1995
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From: "Stephanie A. Hall" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: SF, humor, and literature
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Apparently we all have some humorous sf stories that we cherish.  Here is 
a set of issues I have heard brought up from time to time (most recently 
by Esther Friesner):

While writers know that writing humor is difficult, and risky -- they also 
discover that humorous stories often do not get the merit they deserve. 
Humorous stories rarely get awards. 

Writers famous for being humorists, like Friesner, also may find that 
they are too narrowly type-cast. Publishers and agents may discourage them 
from writing anything else since their name has become associated with 
comedy.  Using a pseudonym might be a solution, but it means that they 
have to start building a new readership base around that new persona.  It 
also plays into the notion that writers write only one kind of thing. 
(This can also be a problem for writers who want to write both fantasy 
and hard sf, etc.).

So if we all enjoy humorous sf why don't we take it, and writers who 
write it, seriously?

Stephanie

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist           The Library of Congress
American Folklife Center               preserves and houses
Library of Congress                    countless ideas and opinions.
Washington, DC 20540-8100              Those expressed here 
[log in to unmask]                           are my own.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


From [log in to unmask]  Sun May  7 14:59:53 1995
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Date: Sun, 07 May 1995 11:59:49 -0700 (MST)
From: "Eric R. Nolen" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dick Awards
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On Sun, 7 May 1995, Bruce Byfield wrote:

> 	People at the local book store were wondering who had won the 
> Dick Award this year.
> 	Anybody know?
> -- 
> 
Mysterium by Robert Charles Wilson won the 1994 Philip K. Dick Award.  
This taken from the May 1995 issue of Locus.

Eric Rahn Nolen


From [log in to unmask]  Sun May  7 19:03:06 1995
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Date: Sun, 7 May 1995 19:03:05 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Terms of Endearment, Teachers' Opinions, Media SF

Hi, Camille. You said in reference to the SF vs. sci-fi argument:

>>Nobody on this list expects PEOPLE MAGAZINE, or USA TODAY or TV GUIDE to
suddenly start using a preferred term because the practitioners like it.<<

Actually, TV GUIDE now uses "Trekker" instead of "Trekkie," based on the
requests of its fans (and possibly Paramount, but I have no idea). This
change just went in over the last two or three years. Me, I call myself a
Trek fan, but I have a life outside Star Trek. ;)

*****

Did I have weird teachers or something? I got assigned SF in junior high and
high school beyond the automatic "Brave New World" and "1984," and my first
creative writing teacher in college gave us "Wizard of Earthsea" before he
let us start writing anything.

And anyone who calls SF formulaic and doesn't think mainstream fiction is
hasn't been paying attention. When there are four root conflicts and fewer
than 20 core plots, all fiction is formula at its core. It's just how well
you flavor the stuff that separates prime rib from Pabulum. And all SF does
differently from mainstream is use the possible as a plot point, not current
or previously-existing things. Or hasn't someone done "Mutiny on the Bounty"
on a starship yet? ;)

*****

Please forgive me, but I'm going to impose on y'all again by asking
questions. I'm going to be doing a panel on media SF and the current wave in
same at BayCon, and I'd like to ask a few questions of everyone:

1) Give me a decent argument as to why HIGHLANDER might not be classifiable
as SF or even sci-fi. I think it's passable SF myself. Either I'm right, or
I'm desperately lost over Christopher Lambert and Adrian Paul.
2) Can I get clearance from the list to call SPACE PRECINCT, SEAQUEST DSV and
EARTH 2 sci-fi? Please?? :)

-Brenda

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Subject: Re: SF vs Sci-Fi
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Science Fiction and Fantasy Listserv

This thread seems to have gotten extremely long.  Not being a person who is
terribly concerned with being politically correct or saying the right things
the right way as long as the point is made clear.  I suggest we look at it in
one of two ways:

    A: A rose by any other name still smells as sweet.

    B: The infidels have been educated!!!

On with life.

Darkstar


From [log in to unmask]  Sun May  7 22:27:42 1995
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Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 12:07:37 +1000 (EST)
From: Mr RW Farnell <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Huxley help. Quote. Hubris. Posthumanism.
To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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The _OED_ entry for "hubris" quotes from A.Huxley:
"Hubris against the essentially divine order of Nature
would be followed by its nemisis".
Does anyone happen to know the origin of this quotation, 
text & approx chapter?
I noticed Bruce Sterling paraphrasing it in his _INTERZONE_
 article 'Cyberpunk in the Nineties' in reference to Shelley's
seminal posthuman construction in _Frankenstein_, as:
"Hubris must meet nemisis".

It would appear to me that the majority of sf dealing with the posthuman
 condition still strikes this "Frankenstein Barrier" (G.Slusser)
when trying to imagine the trully posthuman condition, with perhaps a few
notable exceptions such as O.Butler's _Xenogenisis_ trilogy. Jameson's
"all-too-familiar " of sf is often the unfortunate result.

Anyway , enough of this. Any help in locating the above quote would
be greatly appreciated,

Thanks


From @link-m.muc.de:[log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 00:24:49 1995
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> Date: Fri, 28 Apr 95 11:13:01 +0300
> From: Boris Sidyuk <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: The first (?) alternate history novel
>
> BTW, because of the current political and ideological situation in
> Ukraine there is a very governmentally-thankful fertile soil for
> alternative histories. Soon a lot of ones will appear discribing
> "what if" Ukraine would stay independent in 1918. Of course, most

Oh really? Somehow, I doubt that the Ukrainian government will be
that enthusiastic about stories in which the Makhnovites fight off the
Red Army successfully, and establish an anarchocommunist Ukraine! >B->

- Tim Slater

## CrossPoint v3.02 ##

From cstu  Mon May  8 09:32:42 1995
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Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 09:32:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: TREK SITES AND DISCUSSIONS (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 08 May 1995 07:28:07 EST
From: SINYA B SCHAEFFER <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: TREK SITES AND DISCUSSIONS

Colleen: 
     I did not read the Trek thread until today.  Sorry it seems to ge 
getting out of hand. 
     I  believe that  the original poster  did  NOT propose discussing 
TREK on this list at all.  He  or  she  was ASKING someone to POINT to 
the appropriate Trek  site  or  fan   forum  for  this topic.   I  was 
thinking of asking you  to  point her  to MARVEL which list  all those 
Trek lists and newsgroups.  Perhaps you  could reiterate this  on  the 
list. 
     I  think discussing the phenomenon  of  Trek  mightbe appropriate 
here but not the discussing the eps and its contents.  It  is too much 
duplication and also too much mail. on SF-Lit. 
      I am writing as an AVID Trekker here.  ;) 
                                Sinya 

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 08:52:23 1995
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Date: Mon, 8 May 95 08:52:19 EDT
From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Trek Pros/cons

I must admit I like Trek myself.  It has produced a lot of really good stories,
and even the not-so-good ones can be entertaining.  Obviously, if you judge it
by the same standard as print SF, it's junk, but why should it be judged 
that way?  It would be like judging a mainstream dramatic show by the
standards of mainstream literature.

Marina Frants
[log in to unmask]


From @INDST.INDSTATE.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 09:14:18 1995
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From: "EJUSERS" <[log in to unmask]>
To: Mr RW Farnell <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Date:          Mon, 8 May 1995 08:10:22 EST
Subject:       Re: Huxley help. Quote. Hubris. Posthumanism.
Priority: normal
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``hubris against the essentially divine order of nature would be 
followed by its appropriate nemesis.'' --Aldous Huxley, ``The Double 
Crisis,'' THEMES AND VARIATIONS, NY: Harper, 1950.
    R.D. Mullen <[log in to unmask]>

From shal  Mon May  8 09:51:46 1995
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From: "Stephanie A. Hall" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: TREK SITES AND DISCUSSIONS (fwd)
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>      I  believe that  the original poster  did  NOT propose discussing 
> TREK on this list at all.  He  or  she  was ASKING someone to POINT to 
> the appropriate Trek  site  or  fan   forum  for  this topic.   I  was 
> thinking of asking you  to  point her  to MARVEL which list  all those 
> Trek lists and newsgroups.  Perhaps you  could reiterate this  on  the 
> list. 
>                                 Sinya 

That is the LC MARVEL gopher server. Gopher to marvel.loc.gov -- under 
Employee Information, "What if .." science fiction club, there are some 
nice collections Colleen of information for sf on the net that puts 
together.  --- Stephanie

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist           The Library of Congress
American Folklife Center               preserves and houses
Library of Congress                    countless ideas and opinions.
Washington, DC 20540-8100              Those expressed here 
[log in to unmask]                           are my own.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 09:59:19 1995
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Date: Mon, 08 May 95 09:50:36 est
From: "Karen Newton" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Sci-fi and proud of it!

       Let me say up front that, after several weeks of lurking, I
       have decided to sign off this list serv because there are
       just too many messages for me to keep up.

       One reason I it's not worth it to me, is that I have found
       the atmosphere rather alarmingly intolerant.  I followed the
       long thread on sci-fi versus SF, waiting for someone to
       suggest that there was room for two terms for the same
       thing, that people who like the expression sci-fi (and many
       of us do or this would not be an issue), should be able to
       use it without having others jump on them.  No one really
       said that.  They would say "well, yeah, I sometimes use it
       but after all, if you guys are offended by the term then I
       guess I should change."  Why should we have to change?  And
       why do you insist on assuming that we want to offend you?  I
       don't care if you call it SF?

       I have been reading sci-fi (there I said it!) for over 30
       years.  Except for one Trek symposium, I don't go to cons.
       I do, however, buy, borrow, and read (but never photocopy)
       lots of sci-fi books.  There are more of me than there are
       of you-- if there weren't, you'd all be waiting tables at a
       deli!  You tell me that the word sci-fi offends you because
       "it's been used to beat people down," "if represents a whole
       other genre," "it has a negative history."  So fine.  Don't
       use it.

       I guess I was happier when I was ignorant, when I didn't
       know there was this elitist need among science fiction
       writers to make people conform.  The last thing I need is a
       list serv with word police.  Who would have thought that
       people who can envision entire universes could not conceive
       of two terms for the same concept?

       [log in to unmask]



From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 10:18:17 1995
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Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 11:18:49 -0300 (ADT)
From: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trek Pros/cons
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Why "obviously junk"? I admit that even as dramatic/tv science fiction it 
is problematic in many ways (which I am sure all of us recognize some 
of), but some of the things that it is doing (or trying to do!) are 
fascinating, in particular its exploration of the nature and development 
of humanoid personality in terms of the analytical psychology of C. G. 
Jung. This is serious stuff. 
*****************************************************************
patricia monk (dr)                              [log in to unmask]
                   "just visiting this planet"
*****************************************************************
On Mon, 8 May 1995, Marina Frants wrote:
> I must admit I like Trek myself.  It has produced a lot of really good stories,
> and even the not-so-good ones can be entertaining.  Obviously, if you judge it
> by the same standard as print SF, it's junk, but why should it be judged 
> that way?  It would be like judging a mainstream dramatic show by the
> standards of mainstream literature.

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 11:22:44 1995
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Date: Mon, 08 May 1995 09:22:09 -0600 (MDT)
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From: [log in to unmask] (Phil Harrison)
Subject: Re: Too many messages
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>
>On Thu, 4 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:
>
>> Is there any way to keep down the personal messages.  Additionally,
>> perhaps everyone can limit themselves to 2 or 3 messages.  Thanks I am
>> getting overwhelmed.  Greg
>
>***
>So am I, to the extent of being on the verge of unsubbing for a while. 
>The personal messages, and the amusing one or two sentence conversations
>that go on and on, use up time with a delete key that is better spent on
>my novel... 
>
>Cheers,   Fran


I guess I'll have to be a third in this chorus.  I have really enjoyed the
list, and
maybe I can get back on it sometime, but for now it's gotten too time-
consuming.  All the reparte' and personal anecdotes are interesting, but
not really what I subscribed for.  It is diluting the discussion of real SF.
One last question before I go...Is there a list that is oriented more toward
the writing of SF?  The reference lists have been interesting, but I would
like to start writing some stories, and a list geared toward the actual
writing would be very helpful.  Anyone?

Thanks for the stimulation and the fun.  Best wishes to all.

Phil Harrison


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 11:22:44 1995
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Date: Mon, 08 May 1995 09:22:09 -0600 (MDT)
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From: [log in to unmask] (Phil Harrison)
Subject: Re: Too many messages
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>
>On Thu, 4 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:
>
>> Is there any way to keep down the personal messages.  Additionally,
>> perhaps everyone can limit themselves to 2 or 3 messages.  Thanks I am
>> getting overwhelmed.  Greg
>
>***
>So am I, to the extent of being on the verge of unsubbing for a while. 
>The personal messages, and the amusing one or two sentence conversations
>that go on and on, use up time with a delete key that is better spent on
>my novel... 
>
>Cheers,   Fran


I guess I'll have to be a third in this chorus.  I have really enjoyed the
list, and
maybe I can get back on it sometime, but for now it's gotten too time-
consuming.  All the reparte' and personal anecdotes are interesting, but
not really what I subscribed for.  It is diluting the discussion of real SF.
One last question before I go...Is there a list that is oriented more toward
the writing of SF?  The reference lists have been interesting, but I would
like to start writing some stories, and a list geared toward the actual
writing would be very helpful.  Anyone?

Thanks for the stimulation and the fun.  Best wishes to all.

Phil Harrison

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 11:23:32 1995
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: The Lions of Al-Rassan
Date: Mon, 08 May 1995 11:23:26 EDT


I would like to give the award for best current fantasy author
to Guy Gavriel Kay... he just blew me away with his latest novel,
Lions of Al-Rassan.

When I read it, I felt like I was wandering through the 
courtyards of the Alhambra again, only 700 years ago when
they were still thronged with Muslims and Spaniards. Maybe
its just that pre-Inquisition Spain is one of my favorite
time periods, with its architecture, the mix of cultures of
Jew, Muslim, and Christian, the amazing scientific advances...

Lions was a wonderful book. I recommend it heartily to everyone.

-Marcus

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 12:05:56 1995
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Date: Mon, 08 May 1995 11:05:17 -0600
From: John Jamison <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
Subject:  Sci-fi and proud of it! -Reply

Wow Karen.  That was a great post.  I
sincerely mean that.  I am sorry you are
leaving.


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 13:11:58 1995
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From: Patricia Altner <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sci-fi and proud of it!
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I have to agree with Karen; although I still will remain a member of the 
list. However I too have been dismayed by the elitist attitude, and 
especially by those who compare the use of a racial slur to the term sci-fi.

Patricia Altner
[log in to unmask] 

On Mon, 8 May 1995, Karen Newton wrote:

>        Let me say up front that, after several weeks of lurking, I
>        have decided to sign off this list serv because there are
>        just too many messages for me to keep up.
> 
>        One reason I it's not worth it to me, is that I have found
>        the atmosphere rather alarmingly intolerant.  I followed the
>        long thread on sci-fi versus SF, waiting for someone to
>        suggest that there was room for two terms for the same
>        thing...
>        I have been reading sci-fi (there I said it!) for over 30
>        years.  Except for one Trek symposium, I don't go to cons.
>        I do, however, buy, borrow, and read (but never photocopy)
>        lots of sci-fi books.  There are more of me than there are
>        of you-- if there weren't, you'd all be waiting tables at a
>        deli!...
> 
>        I guess I was happier when I was ignorant, when I didn't
>        know there was this elitist need among science fiction
>        writers to make people conform.  The last thing I need is a
>        list serv with word police. 
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 13:39:18 1995
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   Mon, 08 May 95 13:38:54 EDT
Date: Mon, 8 May 95 13:37:31 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Any other readers of Nancy V. Berberick?

I recently was introduced to an author I had not read before by a friend.
She had the December issue of "REALMS OF FANTASY", and though I don't usually
stray far from SF, I decided to read a few stories.  In this issue was a
wonderful tale of passion and desire called "THE RUSTY SMITH AND FAER LINDEN"
written by NANCY V. BERBERICK.  The prose throughout the story was almost
musical.  After reading this wonderful tidbit, I decided I wanted more.
After visiting a few bookstores I found a book by her called "THE PANTHER'S
HOARD".  There it was again, that same lyrical writing going on for
hundreds of pages.  I enquired about the other books the author wrote that
were listed inside the front cover, but found them out of print.
I guess I'll have to look hard at the used book stores to see if I can find
any of these earlier novels.
Is there anyone else out there that has read Nancy's work?  If you haven't,
I highly recommend you at least give the RoF magazine a look for a wonderful
sample of this author's unique style.

     Later,

Robert D. Bair
IBM Charlotte     RDBAIR at CLTVM1
CSP Test Engineering Support
[log in to unmask]
AR: WB3AHC, 1st Class FCC: P1-3-17298, Tripoli: #2253, NAR: #60163

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 13:57:00 1995
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   Mon, 08 May 95 13:55:28 EDT
Date: Mon, 08 May 1995 13:55:26 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: note of 05/08/95 11:47
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Subject: Sci-fi and proud of it!                                          

I too am sorry to see you leave.  Maybe the volume of messages would           
go down if people would only respond directly instead of posting responses     
as Coleen has requested.                                                       
                                                                               
I too am a lurker (mostly).  My few responses have resulted in a significant   
amount of flaming in my direction.  I may be unsubscribing soon for the same   
reasons you suggested.                                                         
                                                                               
I agree with everything you said in your posting.                              
                                                                               
Dwain Camps (MIS 2A)                                                           
Project Leader - Decision Support Services/LOS                                 
Voice: (305) 593-4156  FAX: (305) 470-7909                                     
Internet: [log in to unmask]                                                 

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 14:07:32 1995
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Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 13:07:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: Daniel S Goodman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Reply to: 
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Thu, 4 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

"Who Killed Science Fiction?" was, I believe, mostly distributed through 
SAPS -- the Spectator Amateur Press Society.  I believe the Hugo rules 
were then changed to keep any apazine from winning the fanzine Hugo 
again.  (Fandom was a lot smaller then -- I believe SAPS have 20 or 30 
members, and it takes a wider distribution than that to win the fanzine 
Hugo these days.)

> From: Mark Stackpole:CEO
> Date: ## 05/04/95 11:23 ##
> Re: MIT's collection of SF materials.  I have been looking for quite 
> a while the Hugo award winning collection/chapbook "Who Killed 
> Science Fiction." I believe it won the award for best fan writing in 
> 1961 or 1960. The collection at UC Riverside of SF material doesn't 
> have an entry in the card catalog, nor is there a listing in OCLC's 
> Union List of books (32 Million & growing).
> I'm begining to wonder if "Who Killed..." was not published 
> separately, but was part of the regular run of some fanzie. Does 
> anybody have this item, or can give a citation to it. (I also checked 
> LC's catalog as well).
> Mark Stackpole
> 
> Preceeding Message:
> From: (Marcus C Sarofim) [log in to unmask]:smtp
> Date: ## 05/04/95 07:25 ##
> See document for message.
> 
> 
> 
> 

From @CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 14:42:14 1995
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Date:         Mon, 08 May 95 13:49:43 EST
From: Doug Kuiper <@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Guy Gavriel Kay
To: [log in to unmask]

>I would like to give the award for best current fantasy author to Guy
>Gavriel Kay...He just blew me away with his latest novel, Lions of Al-
>Rassan.

Ah, many thanks for the news that there is a new Kay book.  I'll be at the
bookstore this evening.  My personal favorites remain the Fionavar trilogy.
One (should I say, three?) of a handful of books that have actually had me
laughing aloud and crying.  I can think of no one else currently writing
fantasy in Kay's class.

If fantasy is not a taboo topic, I would askothers their opinion on the
best (or better) fantasy writer(s) working today.

-Doug Kuiper
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 14:51:55 1995
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Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 11:49:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi, etc.etc.etc... -Reply

Thank-you, Camille, for saying it so well (and, hopefully, putting an end to
this particular thread.)  :-)    (I forget often to "smile" on this list)

Julie
[log in to unmask]
EATON Cataloger


In message Sat, 6 May 1995 08:38:45 -0400,
  Camille <@loc.gov,@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>  writes:

> I think perhaps there is a miscommunication going on here.  People seem
> upset that some people on the list want science fiction called sf.
> They don't think the world will change for these people.
>
> Well, neither do the people who want you to call it sf.  Nobody on this
> list expects PEOPLE MAGAZINE, or USA TODAY or TV GUIDE to suddenly
> start using a preferred term because the practitioners like it.  And
> movie and tv studios won't change, because no matter how much the
> people actually making the movie or show love the stuff, the marketers
> only want to cram it down as many throats as they can--preferably with
> Neilson boxes attached to the throats.
>
> All we are saying is that on this list, it would be nice to be polite to
> the people with the strong preference, and the strong stake in the genre
> not just as neat books, but as a community with a long history that is home
> for many of us.
>
> Camille
>

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 14:57:11 1995
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Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 14:57:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Movies unlimited

Hee's the address that I said I'd send:
	Movies Unlimited
	6736 Castor Ave.
	Philadelphia, PA 19149
		1-800-523-0823
Wizard of Speed and time is listed on Page 73 of their 1995 catalog
#77-5006 for $14.99, shipping is $4.00
I hope this helps

Patty Silva
[log in to unmask]
8-)

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 15:00:05 1995
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Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 11:57:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Writing/Reading and "Literature"and sf and teachers

I feel so sorry for those of you who had bad experiences with teachers of
such limited scope that they would'nt "allow" another viewpoint (i.e., SF)

I guess my own experiences were mostly positive. In fact, during high school
(if I can remember back THAT far!) I was able to utilize many an SF theme in
English classes -- I remember doing some sort of "learning how advertizing
works" sort of a thing, and using SF for my own advertizing.

I hope that since we are "on the same side" as far as SF is concerned, that
we need not worry about being "put down" by one another. :-)

Julie
[log in to unmask]
the one who forgets to :-)


In message Sat, 6 May 1995 08:41:48 -0400,
  Camille <@loc.gov,@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>  writes:

> Doug, in graduate school I was told not to bring in any sf or fantasy
> to a writing class, that it was trash and the teacher didn't want to waste
> the class's time with it.  On the other hand, he picked out two major flaws
> in my work in general which, when I corrected them, lead to selling a
> fantasy novel.  AS for his work, well, I walked out on a play he wrote
> about the trial of Goebbels, I think--deadly boring and pompous, with
> nothing of significance to say about any of the subjects it pretended to
> consider.
> On the other hand, my poetry teacher liked my sf poetry, and even got it--
> I remember once he said to another student, in lowering tones, "No, Bing,
> it was not a funny poem."  Teacher was right of course--it wasn't.
>
> I always figure that success is the best revenge, though.
>
> Camille
>

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 15:13:53 1995
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From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Guy Gavriel Kay

Doug Kuiper wrote:

>Ah, many thanks for the news that there is a new Kay book.  I'll be at the
>bookstore this evening.  My personal favorites remain the Fionavar trilogy.
>One (should I say, three?) of a handful of books that have actually had me
>laughing aloud and crying.  I can think of no one else currently writing
>fantasy in Kay's class.


I'm thrilled to hear that Kay's newest is finally out.  He's an amazing
writer, and has been my favorite for years.  My favorite of his is
_A Song for Arbonne_, but I seem to be in the minority on this one.
Most Kay fans prefer _Tigana_, which is also great, of course.  What 
impresses me the most about Kay is his world-building.  His settings are
so rich in detail and description that I could conjure up clear visual
images of Arbonne, Fionavar, etc. months after I finished the books.  I love
his characters, even if some of them do seem to walk around with the
words "dead meat" written on their foreheads. :-)

I'm particularly looking forward to _The Lions of Al-Rassan_, since I
have such fond memories of my trip to spain a few years back.

>If fantasy is not a taboo topic, I would askothers their opinion on the
>best (or better) fantasy writer(s) working today.

I'd like to recommend Ellen Kushner.  She's only written two books,
_Swordspoint_ and _Thomas the Rhymer_, and they're both excellent.  She
has Kay's knack for rich, lyrical prose, but there are few other
similarities between them.

Marina Frants
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 15:26:09 1995
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Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 14:52:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Linda Sweeting <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ?Book title suggestions needed!
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Hi!
I am the library media specialist at Parkdale High School (Prince 
George's County, Maryland) and am seeking title suggestions for my 9th  
Grade University High School English Teacher to assign to incoming 9th  
graders for a Summer reading project.  The book should be a novel with  
the theme of world hunger.  Sad to say, the students aren't greatly 
excited by this assignment so I try to find fun titles ...every year we 
have a different theme & many students didn't like _Jurassic Park_, last 
year's reading assignment ... with this theme I am stymied!!!

Thanks (in advance)
Linda
[log in to unmask]
>O<




From cstu  Mon May  8 20:58:54 1995
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Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 20:58:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Info Request; Please reply to Linda
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

This request came through from a non-subscriber, so please make sure you 
send a copy to her.  Answers to the list will be posted, but you may 
answer just to Linda.
Colleen

From: Linda Sweeting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: ?Book title suggestions needed!

Hi!
I am the library media specialist at Parkdale High School (Prince 
George's County, Maryland) and am seeking title suggestions for my 9th  
Grade University High School English Teacher to assign to incoming 9th  
graders for a Summer reading project.  The book should be a novel with  
the theme of world hunger.  Sad to say, the students aren't greatly 
excited by this assignment so I try to find fun titles ...every year we 
have a different theme & many students didn't like _Jurassic Park_, last 
year's reading assignment ... with this theme I am stymied!!!

Thanks (in advance)
Linda
[log in to unmask]
>O<





From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 15:29:51 1995
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Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 14:21:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: Daniel S Goodman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ellison and Fans
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Fri, 5 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Why don't you take a good hard look at the pros' complaints in
> "Xenogenesis". Bob Bloch is annoyed that some kid who was going to
> publish 3 volumes of Lefty Feep stories in hardcover ran out of money
> after the first one. Jim Gunn is upset that someone in a crowded con
> suite didn't know him. These are hardly the kind of devastating insults
> that the article implies. If Harlan suffers at the hands of fans, and he
> does, it's because no one in the history of this field has done more to
> invite such behavior.

I'll say one thing for Harlan Ellison -- he's mellowed since he was a 
young fan himself.  (At least, if any of the stories I've heard from old 
fans are accurate.)

Dan Goodman [log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 15:43:27 1995
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Date: Mon, 08 May 1995 21:41:29 -0100
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Roar Vinje)
Subject: Humor, sci-fi and aliens
Content-Length: 1522

Hi,

I've been lurking around for a while, occasionally answering some questions
about books found on my shelves, and kind of tried to keep up with the flow
of SF vs Sci-Fi postings threatening to fill my mailbox. 

Humor first - one of the better, *hard* humorous SF books I have read is Who
Goes Here? by Bob Shaw. I think Bob may be one of the best writers of short
novels and short stories ever; not all his books are humorous, but they are
usually good. Another favourite is Fredric Brown and his Martians Go Home -
and his short shorts of course. And Terry Pratchett, who is getting better
for every new book.

Then I have a point to make about SF vs you know what. About ten years ago
Isaac Asimov wrote a column in F&SF telling his reasons for not using the
term sci-fi. He made me think, and he drove home his point with such force
that I have never used the term willingly again. I'm going through my old
copies now (I have been a subscriber since 1974) to find the essay, but due
to space restrictions they are stored away at my parents house, so it might
take time. For nothing else, that essay is reason enough for me. 

And then aliens. I am, in that I am Norwegian, male, old (enough), and I
have been reading SF and fantasy for 20 years now. I am running out of
shelves....

My name means honour and spear from old Norse,
and I am not shouting although my name is

Roar Vinje
===========================
[log in to unmask]
Consultant Engineer
P.O.Box 34 
N-7075 Tiller
Norway
===========================


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 16:09:56 1995
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Date: Mon, 08 May 1995 16:09:50 -0400 (EDT)
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To: [log in to unmask]
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I have a copy. It was edited and published by Earl Kemp, and the
reason for the rule change had nothing to do with apas, but rather
with a one-shot winning the Hugo.

-- Mike Resnick

From cstu  Mon May  8 21:14:22 1995
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Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 21:14:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: April Archives are Up
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Yes, it was quite a wait, but I think you will be pleased.  The May 
archive was over 2.5 mg originally, which I took 1 mg off by deleting 
errors and duplicates.  Yes, I know there are still dups in the file, but 
my eyes are starting to cross, so I had to stop.  
	
I want to thank all of you for your patience on this and on all the 
duplicate mail last month.  Hopefully, I have gotten this down so that 
only occasional messages double up.  

You may either get a copy of the archive file (sf-lit.log9504) or please 
view it through out gopher LC MARVEL.  The URL is:

	gopher://marvel.loc.gov/11/.listarch/sf-lit

Or if coming through the main menu choose:
 
Employee Information
  Clubs and Organizations
    What IF... LCRA Science Fiction Forum
      Miscellaneous Science Fiction/Fantasy and Related Information
	SF-LIT List Server Archives

Please let me know if you have any problems.
Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]



From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 17:23:19 1995
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From: "John J. Ronald" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sci-fi and proud of it!
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Mon, 8 May 1995, Karen Newton wrote:

...She wrote quite a lot that I agreed with, though I for
one have just been hitting the trusty "delete" key throughout
the whole SF vs. Sci-Fi debate.  IMHO, folks that get all
in a tizzy about the distinction between SF and Sci-Fi really
need to get a life.  I prefer to just say "Science Fiction"
--It's a mouthful to say and a few extra keystrokes, but
it gets across what I want to say.  When I mean science fiction,
I mean SCIENCE fiction, not SF "because you can use it to
mean 'Speculative Fiction'...All fiction is SPECULATIVE;
what interests me is Science, Technology, and the relationship
humans have to these things as played out in fictional
form."  But you wanna call it "SF" or "Sci-Fi" or what
ever, I don't really CARE.  We obviously have a common interest
in this stuff, so why bicker about something so stupid?
Let's get back to talking about actual WORKS of Science Fiction,
and skip the debate on semantics.  If I want linguistic arguments
I'll subscribe to a lingustic LISTSERV group.  My $.02 worth,
anyhow.  Sorry to see ya go, Karen.

--John Ronald
	Rice University


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 18:17:28 1995
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Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 18:08:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi & Why hate Trek ?

Alex, my reasons for hating trek (to a point I still watch the show)
is that when it comes to science fiction in general most people
(who don't know anything about science fiction- and there are a lot
of them) compares it to star trek and how well it does in that comparison.
What they can't seem to admit to themselves is that although
Star Trek is science fiction not all science fiction is Star Trek.
This is my reason and my two cents. 

Patty Silva
[log in to unmask]
8-)

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 18:44:59 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Sci-fi and proud of it!

In a message dated 95-05-08 12:55:35 EDT:

> Who would have thought that
>       people who can envision entire universes could not conceive
>       of two terms for the same concept?
>
>       [log in to unmask]

 I'm sorry but s/he is right. Who does care ? It shouldn't matter.

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 18:55:51 1995
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From: Jesse Saich <[log in to unmask]>
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Well put. As one who has been "lurking" for several weeks as well, I 
found the "discussion" concerning SF vs. Sci-Fi rather disturbing.  While 
I tried to understand the position of the "fans" and "pros," I continually
found myself bewildered by the lack of tolerance to the issue.  I *enjoy* 
Science Fiction in many forms.  Perhaps if I had a more vested interest 
in the genre I would be more defensive (sensitive?) about its name.  

Jesse Saich
University of California, Davis
[log in to unmask]


On Mon, 8 May 1995, Karen Newton wrote:

>        Let me say up front that, after several weeks of lurking, I
>        have decided to sign off this list serv because there are
>        just too many messages for me to keep up.
> 
>        One reason I it's not worth it to me, is that I have found
>        the atmosphere rather alarmingly intolerant.  I followed the
>        long thread on sci-fi versus SF, waiting for someone to
>        suggest that there was room for two terms for the same
>        thing, that people who like the expression sci-fi (and many
>        of us do or this would not be an issue), should be able to
>        use it without having others jump on them.  No one really
>        said that.  They would say "well, yeah, I sometimes use it
>        but after all, if you guys are offended by the term then I
>        guess I should change."  Why should we have to change?  And
>        why do you insist on assuming that we want to offend you?  I
>        don't care if you call it SF?
> 
>        I have been reading sci-fi (there I said it!) for over 30
>        years.  Except for one Trek symposium, I don't go to cons.
>        I do, however, buy, borrow, and read (but never photocopy)
>        lots of sci-fi books.  There are more of me than there are
>        of you-- if there weren't, you'd all be waiting tables at a
>        deli!  You tell me that the word sci-fi offends you because
>        "it's been used to beat people down," "if represents a whole
>        other genre," "it has a negative history."  So fine.  Don't
>        use it.
> 
>        I guess I was happier when I was ignorant, when I didn't
>        know there was this elitist need among science fiction
>        writers to make people conform.  The last thing I need is a
>        list serv with word police.  Who would have thought that
>        people who can envision entire universes could not conceive
>        of two terms for the same concept?
> 
>        [log in to unmask]
> 
> 
> 



From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 19:23:16 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: David Wingrove
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I've recently had a series of SF novels recommended to me:  _Chung Kuo_,
_The Broken Wheel_, _The White Mountain_, _The Stone Within_, all by
David Wingrove.  Apparently they are based on a projection of Chinese
feudal society and Taoism into the future.  Before I plunge into this
2000+pp epic, I thought I'd ask what other readers on our list may have
felt about this series.

Rick

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Subject: Re: Humor faves by g.effinger

If this strain bores you, then don't read it.  No one is forcing you to click
on every message in your e-mail.  There are a lot of strains on here that
bore me -- SF v. Sci-fi, for example -- that I skip right over.  But if it
floats your boat to talk about it, go ahead.  

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 21:11:42 1995
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From: Berni Phillips <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Guy Gavriel Kay
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On Mon, 8 May 1995, Doug Kuiper wrote:

> If fantasy is not a taboo topic, I would askothers their opinion on the
> best (or better) fantasy writer(s) working today.

One author who consistently turns out fine fantasy is Patricia McKillip.
Her most recent novel, one of the (now defunct) Brian Froud faery land
series, SOMETHING RICH AND STRANGE, is a lovely modern fairy tale with
a "green" theme.  

Robin McKinley is another whose prose is outstanding.  Her BEAUTY (not
to be confused with Sheri Tepper's BEAUTY) is the best fairy tale re-
telling I've ever read.  I found DEERSKIN disappointing for its excessive
(IMHO) violence, but I can't complain that it wasn't well written in
other respects.  Her recent short story collection, THE KNOT IN THE
GRAIN AND OTHER STORIES, is also very good.

I hope that other fine writers with only one or two books out, such as
Greer Gilman and Delia Sherman, produce more, for MOONWISE and THE 
PORCELAIN DOVE are wonderful books.

Berni 

From cstu  Mon May  8 21:49:46 1995
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Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 21:49:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Fantasy literature
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	Fantasy literature is also welcome to be discussed on this list,
and it is my favorite genre.  As to other fantasy authors to recommend, oh
my, what a list I could provide.  But let me hit a few favorites.  Any of
the Master Li novels by Barry Hughart are great.  Also, anything by Robin
McKinley, as mentioned earlier and I will also mention her duet, _The blue
sword_ and _The hero and the crown_. I do enjoy David Eddings and Robert
Jordan, but you better like LOTS of volumes before you being these; 
Eddings likes 5 volume sets and Jordan's work is 6 volumes and growing. 
Patricia C. Wrede is good (try _Caught in Crystal_) and R.A. MacAvoy's
_Tea with a black dragon_ is a classic (to me).  One that is borderline
science fiction/fantasy is Steven R. Boyett's _The Architect of Sleep_; 
does anyone know if he ever did a sequel?  And last, if you like Jane
Austin/Regency era books, you will like Patricia C. Wrede and Caroline
Stevemer's _Sorcery for Cecelia_.  This is a title that I love and have
met know one who has read it unless I introduced them to it (I'm sure list
members know if it).   All these books I re-read regularly.

Colleen
_________________________________________________________________________
Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian    [log in to unmask]
Library of Congress                                  (202) 707-4132
Washington, DC 20540-4861                       FAX: (202) 707-4142
These opinions are mine, Mine MINE!       
__________________________________________________________________________
From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 22:16:51 1995
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Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 19:15:49 -0700
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Space Merchants
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask],
        [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
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X-Mailer: AIR Mail 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)

                         Space Merchants
                      by Phol and Kornbluth
                   
Sell      Sell      Sell. I have an opportunity for YOU! This
place is sooo HOT that I can not even go. The place is Venus and
the time is now. Are you feeling that government is enroaching on
your privacy? Would you like to pay fewer tax dollars and get a
tax credit? Venus is the perfect homestead for you.  A new planet
with a new life. The romance and sex abounds in this heated
environment; because you can not go outside, you have a captive
audience for YOUR fantasy partner. Just imagine the thrill when
THEY find out that you're always around! The paycheck will double
for the hazardous duties, but think of your savings with nowhere
to shop. If you're into money, sex, romance, lower taxes, and
privacy; for a limited time only, don't wait and be on the next
flight to Venus!

I recently re-read Space Merchants. This 1953 novel, which is in
paperback or hardback, satirizes the business world. In the early
50's, we didn't know that Venus clouds were poisonous and the
temperatures soar to 400 F. Somehow, Phol did. In the last part
of the book, there are a number of mentions of the "Greenhouse
Effect". The text actually uses this vocabulary. The government
is the Chamber of Commerce,  and the world domination is from a
few corporations in advertising. The government wants to promote
the population to Venus, even if it is hostile. Mitchell
Courtney's job is to persuade colonists to leave Earth. Mr.
Courtney even convinces the "conservationists" that Venus is a
good place for the fanatics. In this science fiction novel,
citizens are hooked on many consumer products, and they will
REALLY pay for those goodies on Venus. Everyone gets what they
want. Courtney, after being kidnapped, inherits the corporation
and gets the girl. The governments eliminates the undesirables.
The businesses of Earth have a higher profit margin, for shipping
and handling to the new domicile. WHAT A DEAL!

This is a humorous novel with perceptions 40 years in advance. I
hope you rush out and buy a paperback or hardback. Why? I am a
finance guy.Since I
have limited editions of both, it will run up the value of my
copies, the old supply game. Get them while they're hot.

Joe de Beauchamp
[log in to unmask]



From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 22:22:09 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fantasy literature

If we're talking fantasy, does that mean fairy tales, too?  Because I could
talk fairy tales all day.  And while we're on the subject, check out Disney's
stage version of BEAUTY AND THE BEAST.  It's the most amazing tech show I've
ever seen, not the heart and humor of the movie, but wo!  Also, anybody ever
read the original Brother's Grimm?  

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May  8 23:34:05 1995
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From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
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Subject: Re: Writing/Reading and "Literature"and sf and teachers
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DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask]

Seems like when you have fairly good lit. teachers in whatever country you 
are in and whatever language they teach, they cannot avoid placing SF on the 
curriculum.  It is as much part of modern lit. as detective novels, the 
new novel and comic strips and books.

Jules Verne's _20,000_leagues_under_the_sea was part of the curriculum in 
the french lit. classes (3rd year) at my high school and we all 
gathered together to see the Disney version in the auditorium at the end 
of the year. In my english (english as a foreign language of course) 
classes in the fifth year, each of us had to choose a SF novel to
read, report on in writing and discuss in class.

That was back in 1970 and 1972 but I do not think they have changed 
things much.  Just last week I learned that my cousin's son, who is going 
at the same private high school I went to (Notre Dame) was doing, as part 
of his school work, a fiction video on a pill which changed men into women.

Au revoir!






From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 00:11:21 1995
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From: Steven H Silver <[log in to unmask]>
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Since people are tossing around the names of some of their favorite 
fantasy authors, let me recommend Harry Turtledove.  Although lately he 
has been making a big name writing Science Fiction/Alternate History, his 
first several novels/books were Fantasy/Alternate History.

Harry holds a Ph.D. in Byzantine history and his knowledge of the period 
and his research skills show strongly in the seven books set in the 
Videssos Empire as well as his fix-up novel _Agent of Byzantium_.  
Although his books are generally very good, anybody with a good knowledge 
of the period can read them in a deeper way to find historical events 
included as well as an occassional pun which will probably be missed by 
the general readership.

He also has a very good humorous fantasy novel out entitled "The Case of 
the Toxic Spell Dump".

Steven H Silver
Indiana University, Department of History
[log in to unmask]
[log in to unmask]

"There are some knightly souls who make their visits to bookshops not because
they need any certain volume, but because they feel that there may be some
book that needs them."
           -Christopher Morley

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 00:27:02 1995
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Date: Tue, 09 May 1995 00:26:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Ellison and Fans
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Harlan's the topic of one of this year's Hugo nominees -- THE BOOK ON THE
EDGE OF FOREVER, which is up for best non-fiction book. Fans and enemies
alike may find it interesting.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 00:32:13 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Sci-fi and proud of it!
To: [log in to unmask]
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Look, most of us have been living with "sci-fi" since Forry invented
it 40 years ago, and will live with it for the next 40 years, too.
A lot of us find it offensive for reasons that have been thoroughly
documented here. We know we'll never get TV Guide or Variety to stop
using it, but we'd like to think that within the sf community, we shouldn't
be subjected to a term we find offensive.

If you want to use it, no one will stop you. I hope that a) if someone
uses language that you find offensive, you will be as tolerant as you
wish us to be, and b) that you will not blame all sf writers if a
few, upon hearing/seeing the expression, decide to have little to do
with you. Most us will put up with it, and try, from time to time, to
explain why we find it offensive. What I still cannot figure out is
why anyone wants to use a term that people who have done them no harm
find offensive, but that's obviously another union. Mine is writing sf,
not sci-fi, books and stories.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 00:46:31 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Sci-fi and proud of it!

In a message dated 95-05-08 11:32:52 EDT, you write:

>       I guess I was happier when I was ignorant, when I didn't
>       know there was this elitist need among science fiction
>       writers to make people conform.  The last thing I need is a
>       list serv with word police.  Who would have thought that
>       people who can envision entire universes could not conceive
>       of two terms for the same concept?
>
>       [log in to unmask]

Bravo!  

I am not resigning from the list, but I must say that I agree wholeheartedly
with your sentiments.  It's really quite difficult to believe that adult
people have wasted so much time over such a... such a meaningless, trivial,
insignificant matter.

[log in to unmask]



From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 01:23:58 1995
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 9 May 1995 01:23:51 EST
Date: Tue, 09 May 1995 01:23:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Signifying Nothing <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Left Hand
To: [log in to unmask]
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I hope this is not too sensitive a subject.

I am taking a course this semester in "The Bible and Literature." Our 
final paper assignment is to write on the connections/relationship 
between the Bible and a literary work of our choice. I've decided to 
do _Left_Hand_of_Darkness_ and to write, at least in part, about the 
messianic connections between Genly Ai and Jesus, both strangers in 
strange lands. I welcome any suggestions or ideas or references you 
would care to share.

Interestingly, when the professor handed out a list of which 
classmates are doing what works, I noticed four different people are 
doing the Chronicles of Narnia, three are doing _The_Handmaid's_Tale_ 
(is that considered sf in this forum?) and one is doing the work I 
originally considered, Heinlein's _Job._ (I decided against it because 
I couldn't find my copy.)

I look forward to your responses.
-joan
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
<D. Joan [log in to unmask]>
>Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak................<
<Whispers the o'erfraught heart and bids it break................>
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 01:29:17 1995
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Subject: RE: From Alain Vaillancourt: Re: Photocopying
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To the best of my knowledge, if a book is out of print then it is not 
illegal to photocopy it (in Australia at least).  Please note, I said 
this is "to the best of my knowledge," I am NOT claiming this as graven 
in stone, or anything of that nature.  It is always possible that I am wrong.

--                                                                       --
Catherine Murdoch                  | Internet: [log in to unmask]
Auchmuty Library                   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 217147
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833

"If man could be crossed with a cat, it would improve man, but it would 
 deteriorate the cat."  -  Mark Twain


From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 01:42:58 1995
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From: Catherine A Murdoch <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: From Alain Vaillancourt: Re: Photocopying
To: [log in to unmask]
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Dave mentioned that copyright permits the copy of a "bit" of the book, 
but he wasn't sure how much constituted a "bit."  I used to work in the  
Distance Education section of a Library, and we used to copy material for 
the external students.  In this country, the legal limit for photocpying 
from a book was 10% or one chapter, whichever is the greater.  As far as 
journal articles go, I believe the limit is one article per issue, but I 
am very hazy on this last bit so I can't swear to it.

--                                                                       --
Catherine Murdoch                  | Internet: [log in to unmask]
Auchmuty Library                   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 217147
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833

"If man could be crossed with a cat, it would improve man, but it would 
 deteriorate the cat."  -  Mark Twain


From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 03:40:03 1995
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From: Catherine A Murdoch <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF Humor
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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I would have to say thath Terry Pratchett is my favourite form of SF 
humour.  He appeals to what my husband calls my "warped sense of 
humour."  I usually get strange looks when I read Pratchett in public, 
because I have a hard time to keep from laughing out loud.

--                                                                       --
Catherine Murdoch                  | Internet: [log in to unmask]
Auchmuty Library                   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 217147
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833

"If man could be crossed with a cat, it would improve man, but it would 
 deteriorate the cat."  -  Mark Twain


From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 04:25:18 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tue,  9 May 95 08:08:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Barf-Back
X-Genie-Id: 0338294
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

Colleen, as you will delete redundant messages, I have a further request:
could you also limit the amount of "barf-back" (the Internet term I heard
meaning the quoted material from the pervious message which the respondent
includes in his reply.  Sometimes this barf-back goes on at great length,
often needlessly as we get the point soon.  That would shortent the
messages, either if sent individually or in the digest.
 
Your online secret admirer. GAE

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 04:25:18 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tue,  9 May 95 08:09:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Humor in SF
X-Genie-Id: 0767129
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

I'm sorry, I forget the Norwegian gentleman's name as I replied here on
Aladdin.
 
I agree with many of his suggestions.  I hate to toot my own horn, and do so
rarely, but in the early part of my career (from 1970 until 1985, when I
wrote WHEN GRATVITY FAILS--although there was a good deal of humor in an
otherwise straight futuristic SF murder mystery, and in later books), I
wrote almostly exclusively humor.  Those books include WHAT ENTROPY MEANS TO
ME (my first book, and a Nebula nominee), my third short story, "All the
Last Wars at Once (a Hugo nominee), HEROICS, the third book of that semi-
series ( THE ZORK CHRONICLES), THE NICK OF TIME and it'semi-sequel, THE BIRD
OF TIME, my Pulphouse collection (THE OLD FUNNY STUFF), a Pulphouse book
(LOOK AWAY, an ironic and funny alternate look at the Civil War Siege of
Atlanta (it concerns Atlanta as Beirut, and what it would've been if present-
day peacekeeping forces had showed up in Atlanta to try to keep things under
control), my short story collections, and many of my uncollected stories,
including my Hugo-nominated "The Aliens Who Knew, I Mean, Everything," about
aliens who land on the White House grounds, demand to talk to the President,
and advise him about all kinds of stuff.  Many, many of these aliens arrive,
until virtually everybody has his personal advisor.  Their advice is dumb--
the President asks, for instance, at a concert during the playing of
Beethoven's Ninth, that it's considered one of the greatest musical
compositions of all time; the alien says it's okay, but the true greatest
human work of music was Miklos Rozca's score for the film "Ben Hur."  The
president asks who was the greatest president, thinking Washington,
Jefferson, or Lincoln; the reply is James Knox Polk (actually the reason
given are pretty good; Polk was an excellent president, though not in the
big-three plus FDR (in my opinion) league.  The aliens believe they know the
best of everything, and advise everybody about everything, driving all
humans batty .  Even though they think they know everything, they're
technologically behind us--they have a huge mothership; it's huge because
they've never developed the transisor, nd the ship operates on old-fasioned
vacuum tubes ("You can't just turn the key and soom off into space; you have
to turn the key and wait for the ship to warm up, THEN you can zoom off into
space. And if a tube burns out, you have to take it down to a drugstore and
use the tube-tester (remember those).
 
There are many other forgotten books and movies, and as I said, that saddens
me.  I'm glad the Maureen Birnbaum stories were mentioned, but I think more
of these others I've mentioned that the Birnbaums.
 
One last point: few SF stories have been nominated for awards, for the same
reason that few comedies win Oscars, etc.  The reason is the same in both
cases--most people will vote for "important" works rather than rather than
humor.  My example is Woody Allen.  He was nominated often early in his
career, but people noticed his humor to the extent that they never saw his
true craftmanship.  That may have ended with "Annie Hall," or "Hannah and
Her Two Sisters."  I don't know how to affect the same change with my stuff.
 
Your pal, "The Franklin Pangborn of SF" (if anyone knows who the 30's
character actor F. Pangborn was--he always played officious hotel desk
clerks, etc.).  He was no relation that I know to the SF writer Edgar
Pangborn, aothor of DAVY.
 

From cstu  Tue May  9 07:58:34 1995
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Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 07:58:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Barf-Back
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> Colleen, as you will delete redundant messages, I have a further request:
> could you also limit the amount of "barf-back" (the Internet term I heard
> meaning the quoted material from the pervious message which the respondent
> includes in his reply.  

GAE,
	Alas, it is beyond my control, I cannot edit messages that are 
posted to SF-LIT (a good thing, in some ways).  So please, dear posters, 
if you are going to include the original message, just include the 
pertinent part, not the whole message.  This is especially important for 
replies to longer messages.

Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 04:25:21 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tue,  9 May 95 08:09:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Reactions to My SF-Wrting
X-Genie-Id: 2664471
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

Julie, lots of time people ask me what I do for a living.  I say, "I write."
Then they get interested, and ask what I write.  I used to say "Science
Fiction," and their faces would fall and they'd say "Oh," in a disparaging
tone.  Now I say "I write books and short stories."  Of course, they say,
"Have you had anything published?" (one of my favorite insults, along with
"I've heard of you, but I've never read anything of yours," and similarly,
"I have several of your books but haven't read them--why do these people
think I need to hear this?), and I reply, "Yes, thirty books, novels and
short story collection, and several stories in the highest-paying and most
prestigious magazines and anthologies today, including three to Playboy (if
they respond negatively to Playboy, I point out that they have so much money
that they can buy the best fiction from the best authors in the U.S. and
elsewhere.  I had a lead story in an issue with Stanley Elkin, one my
absolute fave mainstream authors; another time I had a story in an issue
with Isaac Beshevis Singer (okay, that time HE had the lead story; I was
just proud to be in the same issue with me).  All the best SF/fantasy
authors appear regularly there--Alice Turner is a great editor, with a long-
term knowledge of good fiction.  She also makes sure there's no fiction
demeaning to women.  I hate that some people told me that my best story
wouldn't be nominated by them because they wouldn't get the magazine because
of the sex (which, in my opinion, is pretty clean--just conventional pretty
women with their tops off in not very erotic poses--, but still.  There are
better magazines to buy if you want sexier porn, including Penthouse.  Okay,
sorry for the lecture in the last part.
 
Your online pal, George

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 04:25:22 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tue,  9 May 95 08:10:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Pro Horror Stories
X-Genie-Id: 3147609
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

Dan, we all have several--if not many--horror stories, our own and those
we've heard from colleagues.  I've gotten lots of hate mail about my best-
known and most successful novel, WHEN GRAVITY FAILS.  From one guy,
responding to the photo on the back (I'm looking long-haired and moustached,
and wearing an Arab headress I picked up cheaply at the Egyptian pavilian at
the '84 New Orleans worlds' fair): "No self-respecting Jew would buy that
book."  He hadn't read it, but his problem was with the photo. Also, I
checked out the manuscript with two native-born Middle Eastern shopkeepers,
Muslims, to see if anything in the book offended them.  They loved the novel
(I also got a call from the Islamic Information Service, whoever they are,
and said the book had been passed around the office, and they also
complimented me on the accuracy and respect I showed their religion and
culture.  I said I was very gratified; the kicker was the guy told me that
they were liberal Sunni Muslims, and they couldn't speak for the Shi'ites."
I guessed that if I heard from the Shi'ites, it wouldn't be a phonecall.  It
might be a shot in the head. . . !).  Nonetheless, I got hate mail from
American Muslims saying "How dare you right about our culture when you
didn't grow up in it?"  That's absurd to me; Homer didn't know about the
Trojan culture, Jane Austen didn't know about people she didn't know about
first hand; the list goes on and on.  I don't think you have to grow up in a
culture to write about it, if you research it thoroughly and have it checked
out thoroughly, as I did.  I don't think you have to restrict yourself to
writing only about your sex, age, etc.  Otherwise, I could only write about
balding middle-age white guys from Cleveland and living in New Orleans.
That's absurd on the face of it.
 
I have other horror stories--and I'm sure Resnick has some, too--but this is
enough for know.  BTW, did Ellison mention the cupful of warm vomit thrown
by a fan into a pro's face?  If not, he did elsewhere, on radio I know.
 
Your pal, George
 

From cstu  Tue May  9 08:11:02 1995
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From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From George A. Effinger: Fantasy books
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>From [log in to unmask] May  9 08:06:33 1995
Date: Tue, 9 May 95 11:30:00 UTC
From: [log in to unmask]

            Despite the fact that she's a close friend, I have to
            mention Barbara Hambly, most of whose books I read before I
            met her.  I loved them, although I don't read much fantasy,
            particularly wizard or vampire stuff.  She always rings new
            changes on both kinds of stories.  My favorite of her new
            books is a great fantasy set in '20s Hollywood, about
            moviemaking in the silent era, called BRIDE OF THE RAT GOD
            (there's an unbiased review in the July "Asimov's" magazine,
            and it list lots of her best achievements in that book).
            She does both humor and horror, great action, wonderful
            characters (she's always been great at that)--including '20s
            silent actors who are obviously real actors--Charlie
            Sandringham, the drunk with the great profile, is of course
            John Barrymore--and plenty of other silent stars who appear
            as themselves.  The contrast between the totally self-
            absorbed star of the film BRIDE OF THE RAT GOD, who cares
            nothing about anything but parties, getting stoned on booze
            and cocaine, and her pet Pekes, and the narrator, her
            intellectual and very straight sister-in-law, is extremely
            well-done (her sister-in-law has no illusions about the
            star, yet she pities her and does lots of services for her
            that should be taken care of by the star's servants and
            studio assistants).  There's romance, very sweet and
            charming, between the sister-in-law and the film's
            cameraman, a great portrait of an ancient Chinese wizard who
            helps them, wonderful scenes including historical events
            including the burning of a local amusement pier, a marvelous
            and accurate portrait of Los Angeles when it wasn't so big,
            and Venice when it still had canals, and a thrilling final
            confrontation with the Rat God (including an amazing
            transformation of the Pekes to their mythical ancestral
            forebears, the fu dogs that protected buildings; fu dogs are
            the pairs of big critters outside Chinese restaurants with
            their paws on two different objects; one is the female with
            a paw on a puppy, and the other is the male with his paw on
            a ball, although I'm not sure what it represents--Barbara
            knows, and she's told me, but I've forgotten).
 
            Her other great fantasy novels are her Darwath series, Those
            Who Hunt the Night (one of the few vampire novels I like; a
            sequel is in the works, as is a new Darwath novel), and a
            non-SF/fantasy book, SEARCH THE SEVEN HILLS, a murder
            mystery set in Rome during the early days of Christianity.
            It's a great mystery with lots of surprises, great
            characters (as usual), and a thing that the "Asimov's"
            reviewer mentioned about RAT GOD--that Barbara is able to
            write a historical novel that does the rarest thing in that
            genre: not showing her research.
 
            She's just sold three very good non-SF/fantasy mystery
            novels set in New Orleans in 1939.  I've read them, and as a
            New Orleans resident of 25 years, I couldn't find fault with
            her stories, characters, and local history and color.
            They're excellent.
 
            As I said, we're pals, and maybe some may think that, after
            all, I was biased and over-enthusiastic, but after rereading
            this, I still don't think so.
 
            My second and third recommendations for great fantasy
            authors are John Crowley (Little, Big) and most of Terry
            Pratchett.  I'm an omnivorous reader, as long as I know that
            the authors are to my taste.  Sometimes I'm wrong, but not
            often.
 
            Once again, sorry to go on so long.
 
            GAE



From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 04:25:23 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tue,  9 May 95 08:07:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Trek
X-Genie-Id: 5252558
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

Patricia, I've never seen anything on Trek, old or new, that had anything to
do with Jung, and I've read lots of Jung.
 
When I first watched Trek, when it was first broadcast, I loved it and
thought it would be good for SF in general.  I was 18 years old then, and
I've since changed my mind.  Here are my reasons: the typical old Trek
series had basically one plot (although there were exceptions): the
Enterprise showed up at a planet.  There was a lifeform on the planet.  It
was either friendly or hostile.  If friendly, the Enterprise crew made
friends with it; if hostile, they killed it.  Then they went away and never
came back.  There were, as has been noted, several excellent episodes, but
overall it was repetitious and often dumb (some of the dumb stuff has
already been noted).  In new Trek, which I watched only the first two
seasons, I was appalled by the fact that Roddenberry kept such restrictive
control on the development of the show.  This fact is borne out by the fact
that Melinda Snodgrass, a very good SF writer and a major Trek fan, got what
would be a dream job for her: story editor on that show.  Roddenberry
objected to things she wanted to do, including developing relationships
among the characters (the implied Picard/Crusher love affair, development of
Data in ways Roddenberry didn't like, and the same with Worf and perhaps
others).  He made it so difficult for her that, despite her love of the show
and the great job, she was forced to quit.  He also alienated others very
close to both shows--D. C. Fontana, and David Gerrold (although David
defends Roddenberry in one of the biographies that came out in last year or
two).  I know that Roddenberry exercised tyrannical control over the Trek
novels--his attitude was that if you didn't see something on the original
episodes, it didn't exist (nothing that he didn't create was canonical).
Barbara Hambly wrote a few Trek books, and in one she had Uhura chased
through the Enterprise by bad guys.  To get away, Uhura took a lift down,
got off and ran through a mess hall, then took a lift up and lost her
pursuers.  The manuscript came back from Roddenberry saying "We never saw
this mess hall on the original episodes.  Take it out."  As if the
Enterprise doesn't have mess halls!  And Barbara got the mess hall from the
"official" Star Trek Enterprise blueprints--which Roddenberry also disowned.
 
I was offered a lot of money to write a hardcover Trek novel--the old
generation.  The money was triple what I'd ever been offered before.  I came
up with a neat idea--the first contact between humans and Klingons,
explaining the cause of their enmity.  The publisher loved my outline.
After thinking about it for a while, I finally told them I was turning down
the money.  Lots of my friends (including my girlfriend) think I was dumb;
they don't understand that I hate writing other people's stories--and this
would've been.  The characters are completely locked in--there's nothing you
can do with them, unless you return everything to just the way it was at the
beginning--and they wanted a "real SF writer" to do this one, and I have a
lot of trouble with the dumb science on the show (e-mail me if you'd like to
know specifics about that).  I figured I could make up that money writing
two or three of my own books, which I could finish in less time than the
Trek book which would've been an albatross around my neck.  I'd be thinking
for a couple of years, "Jeez, I got to write that book," and it would never
get done.
 
Sorry to go on so long, and go away from your message, but I thought some of
the above was germane to the ongoing Trek discussion.
 
Your friend (I hope), George Alec Effinger

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 04:25:25 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tue,  9 May 95 08:06:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re:Hubris
X-Genie-Id: 5995463
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

There are several A. Huxley citations in Bartlett's, but none of them about
hubris.
 
The usual definition of hubris--which I've heard and read often--is
"overweening pride."  The same two words are always used, meaning that the
various people using that definition derive it from a single source (about
which I don't know anything).  However, at Yale in the mid-60s, I was a pre-
med but majoring in classics (I wanted to read Homer and my favorite
playwrights and philosophers in the original) and was studying Latin and
Greek.  I attended a guest lecture by Erich Segal (who wrote LOVE STORY, but
was--and may still be--a classics professor at Harvard).  He said the true
translation of the word hubris was not "overweening pride," but "wanton
violence."  His explanation said that heroes sometimes feel that they are
above the laws of gods and men, and perform wanton violence that offends the
gods, leading to their downfall--perhaps through the Nemesis (a Greek
mythological being with semi-godlike power; one often reads in Greek mythic
literature of "the vengeance of Nemesis."  Nemesis also punished people who
disregarded conventional behavior of several sorts, including bragging
immoderately about their abilities, luck, fortune, etc.  They were struck
down by Nemesis, perhaps leading to the more-accepted "overweening pride"
translation.
 
Sorry to be so pedantic.  Jeez, if I'd only known that I'd never be a
doctor, I might've taken some writing classes--if I'd known then that I'd be
a writer someday, which I didn't.  Oh well.  Sometimes I wish I could go
back in time and edit my past; I made lots of dumb mistakes (as did we all),
and I hurt people without meaning to or knowing about it until later, and I
let people hurt me when I could've prevented it (I could tap myself on the
shoulder and tell my younger self not to marry one or two women, and not to
get seriously involved with a few more).  Those vain regrets are a symptom
of how old I'm getting, I guess.  On second thought, If I hadn't married one
of those women, I wouldn't be a(n) SF writer now.  Y'all know that story?  I
may have told it here--it's pretty damn amazing, with strange coincidences
and all.
 
Your pal, George

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 04:50:28 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF, Literature, Theory ("Intertextuality")
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 09:49:56 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <9505052326.256440@martinw> from "[log in to unmask]" at May 5, 95 08:47:55 pm
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In the last mail [log in to unmask] said:
> 
> John Ronald wrote:
. . . > 
> 
> On the subject of SF intertextuality, John also wrote:
> 
> |SF works, if written by different authors, can't seem to
> |refer to each other nearly as easily as more mainstream
> |literature is capable of doing.
> 
When SF refers to other SF this is often in a kind of in-joky fashion.
Part of the question of "intertextuality" is also to do with larger
questions than genre - ie a story involving a character who sets home
after a war and has a lot of adventures, culminating in returning home
to find someone after his wife - is going to instill remeniscences of
the Odyssey in the averagely well-read reader whether the author intends it
or not.

> I think you're right about the difficulty SF has in referring to other 
> SF works to some degree; however, as many have discovered, there's a 
> huge pool of folklore and mythology to refer to.  I think that the body 
> of SF (as we know it today) isn't old or broad enough to have as much 
> reference material as "mainstream fiction."  If we consider that 
> "mainstream fiction" can draw all the way back to the Bible and before 
> and still be self-referential, I think SF has a promising start but 
> still a long ways to go before it can be as richly self-referential as 
> "mainstream fiction."
> 
> John's example:
> 
> |Having Spock read the Star Wars trilogy isn't going to
> |work, but having him read Plato (and then comment how
> |this relates to some Vulcan philosopher)...this DOES work.
> 
> I think it would also work to have Philip K. Dick's androids ruminate 
> on Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics--evidence in my mind that SF is 
> creeping towards the "intertextual-with-other-SF" state.

I'm not sure as Dick's and Asimov's books refer to different levels of
fictional reality. When Dick is being intertextual he refers to works of
philosophy and the Bible. There's no need for him to refer to Asimov
except as a knowing nudge to the reader and I don't think Dick's humour
works on this sort of level.
> 
Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library
The University of Liverpool
051-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
> 
> 
> 


From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 05:12:56 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sci-fi and proud of it!
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 10:12:10 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "[log in to unmask]" at May 8, 95 09:30:38 pm
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In the last mail [log in to unmask] said:
> 
> In a message dated 95-05-08 12:55:35 EDT:
> 
> > Who would have thought that
> >       people who can envision entire universes could not conceive
> >       of two terms for the same concept?
> >
> >       [log in to unmask]
> 
>  I'm sorry but s/he is right. Who does care ? It shouldn't matter.
> 
No it doesn't really: I don't even know why I'm replying to this. But
hasn't the entire discussion suggested the conclusion that people 
AREN'T talking about the same concept? I really don't see anything elitist
in people like Mike Resnik not wanting to be likened to the sort of
stuff in FAMOUS MONSTERS OF FILMLAND. That's not the sort of stuff he
writes. End of story.
Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library
The University of Liverpool
051-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 05:22:27 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi & Why hate Trek ?
Date: Tue, 09 May 95 09:53:00 BST
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Encoding: 49 TEXT
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To avoid endless paraphrasing (been doing too much of that recently), let me 
just subscribe to this bit of Mike Resnick's summary of Star Trek, and TV SF 
generally, and its place in the universe.

>When Star Trek first appeared on TV back in 1966 or thereabouts,
>it was like a breath of fresh air. Most TV shows of that era -- Gilligan's
>Island, Beverly Hillbillies, even Lost in Space -- were aimed at 5-year-old
>mentalities. Trek was aimed at maybe the 9-year-old level, which was a
>quantum step forward. But let's never forget that Trek was state-of-the-art
>sf circa 1934. Women wore 6-inch skirts and never said anything more
>important than "All hailing frequencies open", the captain and first
>officer regularly left the ship in hostile territory, the ship itself
>could make a left turn at light speeds in seconds rather than years,
>and great moral questions were resolved in 44 minutes every week.

Yep.  Quantum step forward in a desperately backward environment.  Still, 
the leaps have to be made, if only belatedly.

But I have a reservation over this bit...


>Do I like it? Not very much. Do I think written sf, even the worst
>written sf, is better than the best televised sf? Absolutely.

Personally I would have to point out The X-Files and Babylon 5 to anyone who 
asked me where SF was these days, amongst the rather large number of books 
under which I would also have to bury them.  I'd also have to draw attention 
to the BBC's short piece The Flipside of Dominic Hide (and maybe, but not 
necessarily, its sequel, Another Flip for Dominic) - little more than a 
retread of a very old SF theme, but beautifully done.  For all of these I 
reckon I could make a case for describing them as decent literature.  The 
Prisoner also must deserve a mention, at the very least - despite its being 
embedded to an extent in the above-described era.  What about The Twilight 
Zone, and The Outer Limits (in parts, at least)?

On the other hand I would find myself advising that the general rule of 
avoiding anything advertised on TV as SF (or, more likely, sci-fi) would 
gain more than it lost.


>Do I
>think the term "sci-fi" should be applied to TV and movies? Let's never
>forget who created it and what it was created -for-, which happened to
>be bad movies and TV shows pretending they were good sf.

Hear, hear...

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 05:31:59 1995
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Date:         Tue, 09 May 95 10:26:58 BST
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject:      Re: Photocopying SF
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Thu, 4 May 1995 17:45:33 -0400

So which is more important? The authors royalties? Or the pleasure of reading t
he book? If I can find a book then I will buy it. If I photocopy a chapter or a
 short story which I later find (or is re-issued) then I will buy it. I am not
a criminal. The market forces which it has been suggested we should promote are
 not interested in us. They are interested in the fast buck, the big sell. I kn
ow - I work in a book shop. Photocopying also costs money. It also puts money b
ack into the economy. Photocopy departments here in England pay money for a lic
ence which allows copyright - for review purposes - the reproduction of either
a chapter or one article from any book.

The question of out of print books is interesting - do any of the professionals
 on the list feel that they'd rather no one read their work because it had drop
ped out of print, or was not in print in a country, than allow 'illegal' photoc
opying?

Of course if everyone is sick of this strain, lets kill it.

I still don't see why George thought this list was above my type of person

Jonathan Laidlow

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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: John Myers Myers
Date: Tue, 09 May 95 10:46:00 BST
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> I'm re-reading my battered and beaten copy of Silverlock [bought already
>battered and beaten years ago] for the umpteenth time =)  - for those who 
are
>unfamiliar its a wonderful Dante - like story of a disaffected young
>mundane's
>redemption of spirit in a fantasy land - sprinkled throughout with a number
>of
>literary references to many classical works - its also got front and end
>notes
>by Poul and Karen Anderson, as well as Niven and Pournelle - its lyrical 
and
>fun and one of my favorites - but [sigh] since I found it in a used 
bookstore
>[and never seen another]  I was wondering if anyone else knew what other
>books
>John Myers Myers [not a typo!] had written and if they were either in print
>or
>generally available.  Thanks - Cherie :-)

I agree that Silverlock is marvellous.  I wish I could find a copy of my 
own...  One other book by Myers that I know exists is The Moon's Fire-Eating 
Daughter.  I did find it in a new edition (US, I think) maybe six or eight 
years ago, but I have no idea whether it's available now.  Someone really 
ought to reprint Myers!  Anyway, I would say that TMFED is overall a little 
less successful that Silverlock while exhibiting the same sense of fun. 
 Redemption of a tired college professor this time, as I recall.  I can't 
check, because someone borrowed it some years ago.  I think it's the fate of 
all Myers books to be lent and never returned in an endless random sequence.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 07:03:02 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: humorous SF
Date: Tue, 09 May 95 11:57:00 BST
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>I just noticed that most of this list is fantasy, rather than SF, but it 
does
>seem that there is more funny fantasy out there.
>


Maybe it's easier to parody fantasy than it is SF - much of the humour I've 
come across in the genre involves a book's self-parody.  Then again, has 
anyone yet mentioned Harrison's The Technicolour Time Machine?  I must 
confess that I've not read the book, but I have a tape of radio version that 
was very neatly done and suggests that the book represents Harrison on very 
good form.

And are we including writers like Vonnegut?  He sprang to mind as someone 
who seems to me to be funny even when serious just because he's so damn 
/clever/.  Latest I've read by him is Hocus Pocus, which is perhaps veering 
more towards SF than he has for a while and which has some hilarious - and 
often also sick - moments.

The Illuminati books?  People keep telling me they're great.

I can't remember, either, whether anyone's mentioned Lem.  The Cyberiad and 
the Pirx stories are, in their different ways, frequently hilarious.  Also 
One Human Minute, though this is more clearly satirical and less overtly 
"comic".

          Dave

[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 08:18:29 1995
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From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fantasy literature
Date: Tue, 09 May 95 13:17:00 UTC
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Woa, not only science fiction but fantasy too.

First off I must state that Fan is my preferred abrieviation and that I'll 
be grossly offended if anyone uses the term fan-ci.

One fantasy author who stands out for me, and who's books I go back to again 
and again is Lord Dunsany.  I know of only two of his books, The King Of 
Elfland's Daughter and The Charwoman's Shadow, and would be indebted to 
anyone who can point me in the direction of more.
Another favourite, this time from childhood, is The Phantom Tollbooth, by 
Norton Juster if memory serves, (which is by no means certain).

markw - who owns a Seventh Wave album called Psi-Fi

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 09:31:12 1995
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From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fantasy literature



>If we're talking fantasy, does that mean fairy tales, too?  Because I could
>talk fairy tales all day.  And while we're on the subject, check out Disney's
>stage version of BEAUTY AND THE BEAST.  It's the most amazing tech show I've
>ever seen, not the heart and humor of the movie, but wo!  Also, anybody ever
>read the original Brother's Grimm?  


Actually, the original wasn't Brothers Grimm.  I'm totally blanking on
the name of the Frenchwoman who wrote it, but I have read it, and it's
great.

Marina Frants
[log in to unmask]



From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 10:41:12 1995
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Mack Lundy" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Science in Science Fiction
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 9 May 95 10:42:57 PDT
Encoding:  25 TEXT , 4 TEXT 

Thanks to a reference in Omni, I found this journal article:

"Life History Strategies and Population Biology in Science Fiction Films"
by May R. Berenbaum and Richard J. Leskosky and published in Bulletin of the
Ecological Society of America 73(4):236-240. (Dec. 1992).

Berenbaum is (was) in the Dept. of Entomology and Univ. of Ill. and Leskosky
is (was) in the Unit for Cinema Studies also at Univ. of Ill.

The authors, with tongue in cheek, study alien invasion movies from the 50's
from the standpoint of population biology and life history.  Obviously we
are talking about SCI-FI here and not SF.  How successful the invasions were,
what caused the invasions to fail (where applicable).  The article includes
graphs that show the "overall mortality of sci-fi creatures," "population
densities of sci-film creatures," "body sizes of sci-fi creatures," "annual
production of sci-fi films," and "semelparity and iteroparity in sci-fi
films."  The last item refers to reproduction.

Note the use of "sci-fi" in the graph titles.  It certainly seem appropriate
here given the distinctions drawn between SF and SCI-FI in recent postings.

Does anyone know of similar articles?  I have a vague memory of a discussion
about why it is scientifically impossible to have a 50' grasshopper and why
the effect on the incredible shrinking man of falling off a table would be
negligible.

Mack A. Lundy III                                    [log in to unmask]
Library Systems Manager, Swem Library
College of William and Mary, Williamsburg, VA
VOICE:  (804) 221-3114      FAX:  (804) 221-3088

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 10:48:32 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Re:Hubris
Date: Tue, 09 May 95 15:46:00 BST
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[Medium-pedantic lit. crit. [another abbreviation of which I disapprove but 
with which I've reached an uneasy truce!] follows - just in case anyone 
wants to bypass it - though I hope it's of interest to those discussing 
this...]


George Alec Effinger wrote:

>The usual definition of hubris--which I've heard and read often--is
>"overweening pride."  The same two words are always used, meaning that the
>various people using that definition derive it from a single source (about
>which I don't know anything).

This is close to the definition I've always come across.  A lot of 
Shakespearean study veers periodically towards the classical Greek (well, 
Aristotelian, I think) formulations of comedy and tragedy.  In the past I've 
argued that these formulae are worse than unhelpful in Shakespearean 
criticism, but that's by the way - the notion of hubris, as often applied to 
characters like Leontes (Winter's Tale) or Brutus (J Caesar), is used to 
indicate one of the classic "flaws" that can lead to a character gaining the 
stature of a tragic hero.  As I recall (very likely wrongly, I must say) 
hubris is described as "the sin of pride", not exactly meaning that the 
offender is simply a pompous git who deserves to be slapped down (as some 
people apparently interpret it), but that with the best will in the world 
(Brutus really IS an honourable man!) they feel that they have to act 
against an established natural order.  The "sin" lies in their failing to 
realise that their principles, noble as they may be, are of little 
consequence in the grand order (ie their excessive "pride" lies in their 
believing they can and should make a difference), and their "punishment" is 
self-inflicted in the sense that the grand order goes ahead and rolls 
straight over them without pausing or noticing - that's one of the things 
that make it a grand order!  (By the way, the same thing, oddly, resurfaces 
as a very strong theme in the Gothic revivalist novels - at least, according 
to my undergraduate dissertation it does!)


>[...] I attended a guest lecture by Erich Segal (who wrote LOVE STORY, but
>was--and may still be--a classics professor at Harvard).  He said the true
>translation of the word hubris was not "overweening pride," but "wanton
>violence."  His explanation said that heroes sometimes feel that they are
>above the laws of gods and men, and perform wanton violence that offends 
the
>gods, leading to their downfall--perhaps through the Nemesis [...] Nemesis 
also punished people who
>disregarded conventional behavior of several sorts, including bragging
>immoderately about their abilities, luck, fortune, etc.  They were struck
>down by Nemesis, perhaps leading to the more-accepted "overweening pride"
>translation.

That sounds plausible, though I'm not entirely comfortable with it. 
 Certainly I can see "overweening pride" and "wanton violence [against the 
natural order]" as alternative translations that have evolved in different 
directions for their own purposes - different aspects for different 
occasions.  Maybe in normal use "hubris" really does evoke something as 
shabby as ordinary bragging and so on (to which the Nemesis business would 
believably apply in popular folklore - though I am certainly not the expert 
here on that...), and only takes on this specialised and elevated meaning in 
the context of drama (much like "tragedy" itself, come to that) and as one 
of the levers making up the Greek system.


>Sorry to be so pedantic.

Nah - it's useful to examine the roots of these things, even if a conclusion 
isn't instantly evident.


>On second thought, If I hadn't married one
>of those women, I wouldn't be a(n) SF writer now.  Y'all know that story? 
 I
>may have told it here--it's pretty damn amazing, with strange coincidences
>and all.

Well, if it hasn't been done to death here already I'd certainly be 
interested to hear it, so there's my vote...

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 10:57:56 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Trek
Date: Tue, 09 May 95 15:54:00 BST
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Encoding: 19 TEXT
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>When I first watched Trek, when it was first broadcast, I loved it and
>thought it would be good for SF in general.  I was 18 years old then, and
>I've since changed my mind.  Here are my reasons: the typical old Trek
>series had basically one plot (although there were exceptions): the
>Enterprise showed up at a planet.  There was a lifeform on the planet.  It
>was either friendly or hostile.  If friendly, the Enterprise crew made
>friends with it; if hostile, they killed it.  Then they went away and never
>came back.

Somewhere I have a boiled-down spoof script from way back when that pokes 
hilarious (but affectionate, I hasten to add!) fun at exactly this kind of 
thing, among others.  If anyone would like a copy, mail me privately and 
I'll see if I can dig it up (apologies in advance if it's already been 
consigned to the outer darkness).  Then again it's floating around on 
various ftp sites so maybe everyone's seen it already...

          Dave
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 11:01:45 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fantasy literature

I think Raymond Feist is one of the better fantasy authors around but the
same caveat applies to him as it does to Jordan and Eddings,stories with
multiple volumes.

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 11:21:14 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fantasy literature
Date: Tue, 09 May 95 16:08:00 BST
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>One fantasy author who stands out for me, and who's books I go back to 
again
>and again is Lord Dunsany.  I know of only two of his books, The King Of
>Elfland's Daughter and The Charwoman's Shadow, and would be indebted to
>anyone who can point me in the direction of more.

TKoED is a marvellous book.  The only other book of his that I know I have 
at the moment is a book of lectures on literature (the Donellan Lectures, I 
think it's called).  I'll try to find the details for tomorrow.  I would 
guess there's no chance of it being in print, but all sorts of things (like 
me copy of this) turn up secondhand of course.

(I don't know what fan-ci means, by the way, but I'll punch anyone who 
applies it to me just in case it's as twee and affected as it sounds...)

          Dave

[log in to unmask]

From @INDST.INDSTATE.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 11:22:23 1995
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From: "EJUSERS" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Tue, 9 May 1995 10:18:42 EST
Subject:       RE: Hubris
Priority: normal
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>

In citing the source for Huxley's remark on hubris, I neglected to 
give the page number. Again, the words quoted appear on page 271 of 
THEMES AND VARIATIONS, NY: Harper, 1950; that is, in the last 
paragraph of the essay "The Double Crisis," which concernes the 
threat of nuclear destruction and the exhaustion of natural 
resources, especially through erosion. --R.D. Mullen, 
<[log in to unmask]>

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 11:30:44 1995
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Date: Tue, 09 May 1995 11:29:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Signifying Nothing <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Hubris
To: [log in to unmask]
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I was going to say I learned this in a high school science fiction 
course, but upon second thought I think it was actually the Greek 
mythology course I had with the same teacher. In any case, as I 
learned it, hubris is the sin of considering oneself in a league with 
the gods; the implication being that gods have, in addition to 
omnipotence, certain responsibilities (to the natural order of things, 
or balance, or Equilibrium in Earthsea terms) which the mortal, 
however well-meaning, is ill-equipped to take on.

Of course, she was probably putting it in oversimplified terms for all 
the idiots in the class. I was constantly under-challenged in high 
school. Teachers loved me because I actually gave some thought to the 
stuff they made us read.

-joan
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
<D. Joan [log in to unmask]>
>Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak................<
<Whispers the o'erfraught heart and bids it break................>
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 13:05:22 1995
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From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 11:47:10 1995
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Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 10:47:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Space Merchants
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Yes, yes, YES!

SPACE MERCHANTS is a great book, not only because of its satirization of 
the business world, but also because of its DEAD ON portrayal of the 
advertising world, all of which is still sadly relevant to today's 
overcommercialization and "media-zation."

I've heard repeatedly, too, that the book is a REQUIRED reading in many 
college advertising courses.  Can anybody in this list confirm that?


Gary L. Warren
(aka "glw")
:D


On Tue, 9 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

>                          Space Merchants
>                       by Phol and Kornbluth
>                    
> Sell      Sell      Sell. I have an opportunity for YOU! This
> place is sooo HOT that I can not even go. The place is Venus and
> the time is now. Are you feeling that government is enroaching on
> your privacy? Would you like to pay fewer tax dollars and get a
> tax credit? Venus is the perfect homestead for you.  A new planet
> with a new life. The romance and sex abounds in this heated
> environment; because you can not go outside, you have a captive
> audience for YOUR fantasy partner. Just imagine the thrill when
> THEY find out that you're always around! The paycheck will double
> for the hazardous duties, but think of your savings with nowhere
> to shop. If you're into money, sex, romance, lower taxes, and
> privacy; for a limited time only, don't wait and be on the next
> flight to Venus!
> 
> I recently re-read Space Merchants. This 1953 novel, which is in
> paperback or hardback, satirizes the business world. In the early
> 50's, we didn't know that Venus clouds were poisonous and the
> temperatures soar to 400 F. Somehow, Phol did. In the last part
> of the book, there are a number of mentions of the "Greenhouse
> Effect". The text actually uses this vocabulary. The government
> is the Chamber of Commerce,  and the world domination is from a
> few corporations in advertising. The government wants to promote
> the population to Venus, even if it is hostile. Mitchell
> Courtney's job is to persuade colonists to leave Earth. Mr.
> Courtney even convinces the "conservationists" that Venus is a
> good place for the fanatics. In this science fiction novel,
> citizens are hooked on many consumer products, and they will
> REALLY pay for those goodies on Venus. Everyone gets what they
> want. Courtney, after being kidnapped, inherits the corporation
> and gets the girl. The governments eliminates the undesirables.
> The businesses of Earth have a higher profit margin, for shipping
> and handling to the new domicile. WHAT A DEAL!
> 
> This is a humorous novel with perceptions 40 years in advance. I
> hope you rush out and buy a paperback or hardback. Why? I am a
> finance guy.Since I
> have limited editions of both, it will run up the value of my
> copies, the old supply game. Get them while they're hot.
> 
> Joe de Beauchamp
> [log in to unmask]
> 
> 
> 
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 11:51:23 1995
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Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 10:51:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sci-fi and proud of it!
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Since I was (don't throw bricks at me!) a PERRY RHODAN reader when I was 
a kid in the 70's, I'd term that series, or Asimov's LUCKY STARR stuff or 
even (risking the wrath of my fellow Trekkers now) most of the STAR TREK 
works as "sci-fi."  And most definitely all the "B" horror/monster movies 
of the 50's (i.e. Godzilla, 50-Ft. Woman, etc.).


Gary L. Warren


On Tue, 9 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Look, most of us have been living with "sci-fi" since Forry invented
> it 40 years ago, and will live with it for the next 40 years, too.
> A lot of us find it offensive for reasons that have been thoroughly
> documented here. We know we'll never get TV Guide or Variety to stop
> using it, but we'd like to think that within the sf community, we shouldn't
> be subjected to a term we find offensive.
> 
> If you want to use it, no one will stop you. I hope that a) if someone
> uses language that you find offensive, you will be as tolerant as you
> wish us to be, and b) that you will not blame all sf writers if a
> few, upon hearing/seeing the expression, decide to have little to do
> with you. Most us will put up with it, and try, from time to time, to
> explain why we find it offensive. What I still cannot figure out is
> why anyone wants to use a term that people who have done them no harm
> find offensive, but that's obviously another union. Mine is writing sf,
> not sci-fi, books and stories.
> 
> -- Mike Resnick
> 
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 12:42:12 1995
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From: Ruth Ballam <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Plymouth
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 14:13:51 GMT
Subject: Re: Trek Pros/cons
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>Trek appears to be the Dallas Cowboys of SF, you either love it or hate it.

My feeelings towards Trek could better be described as apathy. :-)

The original series was good. Some of the films were good (some were utter 
tripe !). The Next Generation started well and then fell into recyling story ideas. 
Deep Space Nine was promising but got a bit lost. Voyager (what I've seen of it) 
has promise but I wouldn't put any money on it daring to do anything new 
(Phage, otherwise known as Neilix's Lungs, was dire !)

I think that the passion in Trek flamings comes from the fact that a lot of people 
feel let down. Trek *was* a trail blazer, now it is little more than a marketting 
franchise. Paramount don't want to risk their golden goose by doing anything 
risky and therefore, interesting. 

I keep on watching (in hope) but I drew the line at paying out good money to see 
Generations. I'll watch that at Glastonbury as it'll be free :-)

Ruth




-------------------------------------------
[log in to unmask]
Ruth Ballam,
Computing Service,
University of Plymouth,
-------------------------------------------

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 12:57:26 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fantasy literature
Date: Tue, 09 May 95 17:08:00 BST
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>I think Raymond Feist is one of the better fantasy authors around but the
>same caveat applies to him as it does to Jordan and Eddings,stories with
>multiple volumes.


Vaguely relevant:  it seems odd that Feist crops up regularly in cover 
blurbs for Janny Wurts saying "This is groundbreaking, brilliant stuff" or 
similar.  They are married, I believe...  I wonder if she's now prominent 
enough to do the same in return.

Still, I thought that Faerie Tale was a superior treatment of the things it 
was a treatment of.  Not corny or saccharine, as might have been expected.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 13:02:58 1995
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Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 13:02:57 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi & Why hate Trek ?

In a message dated 95-05-08 23:28:26 EDT, you write:

>Alex, my reasons for hating trek (to a point I still watch the show)
>is that when it comes to science fiction in general most people
>(who don't know anything about science fiction- and there are a lot
>of them) compares it to star trek and how well it does in that
>comparison.
>What they can't seem to admit to themselves is that although
>Star Trek is science fiction not all science fiction is Star Trek.
>This is my reason and my two cents. 
>
>Patty Silva
 If I understand you Patty, you are telling me that you resent Trek because
people wonder why other SF doesn't do as well, but do you mean commercially (
My first thought ) or qualitatively. ( My second thought )
 If its the commercial option then why do you care ? SF is art and art is
created/exists for its own sake. It should be evaluated solely on its self
contained merits. These are the values it presents, and its quality of
presentation. (I'm certain you could subdivide these infinitessimally, but I
believe they are inclusive.)
 If you find that SF doesn't measure up to Trek qualitatively, than you must
mean the prodcution/presentation of the product. Storywise there is a lot of
SF that's as good and much better, but it is hard/impossible to beat Trek for
impressive effects and sets and other production issues. Admittedly that's
all most folks care about and so they might find other SF lacking. There are
notable exceptions, T2, Jurassic Park and Stargate. These are pretty much the
only shows that out-produce Trek that I know of. Trek has spoiled its
audience visually, and even sonically.

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 13:03:54 1995
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Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 13:03:54 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Terms of Endearment, Teachers' Opinions, Media SF

In a message dated 95-05-07 20:44:47 EDT, you write:

>1) Give me a decent argument as to why HIGHLANDER might not be
>classifiable
>as SF or even sci-fi. I think it's passable SF myself. Either I'm
>right, or
>I'm desperately lost over Christopher Lambert and Adrian Paul.
>2) Can I get clearance from the list to call SPACE PRECINCT, SEAQUEST
>DSV and
>EARTH 2 sci-fi? Please?? :)
>
>-Brenda
>
>
1. Your lost over Christopher Lambert and Adrian Paul. You can still talk
about it though, they are Fantasy.
2. First off you don't have to get clearance, but they are all fine I think.
I haven't seen Space Precinct, but I liked Seaquest and Earth 2, what little
I saw.

 I'd have sent this one privatley Colleen, but well I felt like puffing out
my chest and helping Brenda out in public ;)

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 14:18:24 1995
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Date: Tue, 09 May 1995 14:18:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Space Merchants
To: [log in to unmask]
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Official records aren't kept, but it's generally accepted that
either THE SPACE MERCHANTS or DUNE is the best-selling science fiction
novel of all time, world-wide.

It might also interest you to know that the authors' working title
for THE SPACE MERCHANTS, and the title that was used for its magazine
serialization, was GRAVY PLANET.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 14:20:53 1995
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Date: Tue, 09 May 1995 14:20:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Sci-fi and proud of it!
To: [log in to unmask]
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I would have thought it was simply a matter of good manners. What
do you do when you know something offends people who have not offended you?

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 14:31:51 1995
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Date: Tue, 09 May 1995 14:31:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Trek
To: [log in to unmask]
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Good for you, George. My proudest moment last year was turning down
a Trek novel and a Star Wars trilogy within a week of each other.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 14:45:40 1995
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Date: Tue, 09 May 1995 14:45:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Space Merchants
To: [log in to unmask]
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I can't specifically confirm that THE SPACE MERCHANTS is required reading
in various college courses. But I can generalize and tell you that
lots of sf -is- required in college. In fact, various portions of my
own work, from SANTIAGO to the Kirinyaga stories, are required reading
in more than 75 colleges, here and abroad, and since THE SPACE MERCHANTS
has probably outsold all 40+ of my books put together, I can't imagine
that it -isn't- required reading in quite a few colleges.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 14:48:35 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Space Merchants



> I've heard repeatedly, too, that the book is a REQUIRED reading in many 
> college advertising courses.  Can anybody in this list confirm that?

Awhile back I posted a list of some of the books I was required to read as part
of the Science Fiction course at Purdue University back in the late 70s/early
80s (prehistory - I can't remember that far back which year I took the course).
At the time I didn't list Space Merchants because I forgot (all forgive me,
please).  But yes, it was required reading 15 years ago.  I couldn't swear to
it now.

Joe Karpierz





From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 14:49:02 1995
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Date: Tue, 09 May 1995 14:48:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi & Why hate Trek ?
To: [log in to unmask]
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I gave up watching network TV maybe 20 years ago, so I've never seen
X-Files or Babylon-5...but are you seriously saying that, in your mind,
they rank as highly as, to take a few out of the air, ENDER'S GAME,
NEUROMANCER, WHEN GRAVITY FAILS, and THE DISPOSSESSED?

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 15:14:59 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF, Literature, Theory ("Intertextuality")
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue,  9 May 95 12:07:57 PDT
Message-Id: <9505091907.396E88@martinw>
X-Mailer: SelectMAIL 1.2

In response to my post on intertextuality, Andy Sawyer wrote:

|When SF refers to other SF this is often in a kind of in-joky fashion.
|Part of the question of "intertextuality" is also to do with larger
|questions than genre - ie a story involving a character who sets home
|after a war and has a lot of adventures, culminating in returning home
|to find someone after his wife - is going to instill remeniscences of
|the Odyssey in the averagely well-read reader whether the author 
|intends it
|or not.

An excellent example.  In response to my example (which follows)

> I think it would also work to have Philip K. Dick's androids ruminate 
> on Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics--evidence in my mind that SF is 
> creeping towards the "intertextual-with-other-SF" state.

Andy wrote:

|I'm not sure as Dick's and Asimov's books refer to different levels of
|fictional reality. When Dick is being intertextual he refers to works of
|philosophy and the Bible. There's no need for him to refer to Asimov
|except as a knowing nudge to the reader and I don't think Dick's humour
|works on this sort of level.

Perhaps I can expand a bit on my example:  I don't envision PKD the 
writer referring to Asimov's laws in his fiction.  Rather (taking a cue 
from Andy's more general example), I imagine an "artificially 
intelligent" being (such as one of PKD's androids) reflecting on early 
attempts to regulate and shape artificial intelligence (such as Asimov's 
three laws).  The "larger questions than genre" include those of the 
right/responsibility of the creator relative to the created, or the 
perceived superiority of one sentient group over another, etc.

How does that work?  (Thanks, Andy, for providing me the impetus to 
refine my example).

-Martin S. Won 



From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 16:52:06 1995
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Subject: Re: Trek Pros/cons




> I think that the passion in Trek flamings comes from the fact that a lot of people 
> feel let down. Trek *was* a trail blazer, now it is little more than a marketting 
> franchise. Paramount don't want to risk their golden goose by doing anything 
> risky and therefore, interesting. 

I'm not sure that this has any place here, but I thought that as an additional
little tidbit to the discussion, it might be interesting.

On a recent episode of Babylon 5, one of the subplots dealt with a Babylon 5
souvenir shop opening up on the station.  One could conceivably buy shirts,
figures, masks, hats, etc., all related to the station and its inhabitants.
The character Ivanova was dead set against the idea.  Her line, which struck
both my wife and I as somewhat telling, was something on the order of "We're
not some sort of deep space franchise out here."

I wonder how much Paramount winced at that line, if anybody over there saw it.

Joe Karpierz

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 17:27:31 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi & Why hate Trek ?



> I gave up watching network TV maybe 20 years ago, so I've never seen
> X-Files or Babylon-5...but are you seriously saying that, in your mind,
> they rank as highly as, to take a few out of the air, ENDER'S GAME,
> NEUROMANCER, WHEN GRAVITY FAILS, and THE DISPOSSESSED?

I haven't really said anything about this thread, but I feel like I have
something to say here.

In answer to your question, in my opinion (and I know you didn't ask me :-))
no.  

Ender's Game, in my mind, rates as one of the modern classics.  I was completely
blown away.  I haven't been surprised as that book surprised me in a very long
time.  Neuromancer and When Gravity Fails were both wonderful books.  I'm
sorry to say that I've never been able to complete The Dispossessed.  But I
suppose 3 out of 4 isn't too bad.  And those aren't four bad books to be 
pulling out of the air!

I take televised science fiction (or whatever we're calling it today) in a
completely different light.  You just cannot have the depth of storytelling and
characterization in a television show as you do in a novel.  I believe it is
impossible.  Refer to the interview with George R. R. Martin that is in the
latest issue of Locus (it showed up yesterday at my house) for his experiences
with television vs. the written word.  But I do believe that I can be 
entertained by televised science fiction.  And I believe that there is televised
science fiction that stands above others.

There is a glut of the stuff on television these days, most of it pretty bad.
I'm a Trek fan, so I watch those two shows.  I find Voyager better than Deep
Space 9 (I know, who cares?).  I've watched VR.5.  Yechh.  I've watched 
Seaquest.  Yechh.  The Sliders promo turned me off.  I've watched one X-files.
It was okay.  But I believe that Babylon 5 stands head and shoulders above them
all.  Maybe that is a result of the fact that Harlan Ellison is involved with
the show.  I don't know.

I do know that in terms of television, I ask myself, "was I entertained by
what I just saw?"  If the answer was yes, I continue watching the show.  If not,
I probably don't.  But I never try to compare literary science fiction to that
which is media (I wonder why that term is used.  Isn't the printed page a 
media?) produced.  They are different animals.  And I try to keep it that way.

But I tell you this.  If all televised science fiction were to drop off the
face of the earth, it wouldn't hurt that much.  I could still read.

Joe Karpierz

From @gps1.leeds.ac.uk:[log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 17:46:54 1995
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From: Steven French <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Leeds
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 2:34:29 GMT
Subject: Re: Sci-fi and proud of it!
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
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With regard to why anyone would want to use a term that people who have 
done them no harm find offensive, I once had great difficulty convincing 
the white students in an first year university class that blacks might find 
certain early Tom & Jerry cartoons offensive. The black students, of 
course, came out very strongly in support of that suggestion, which 
surprised some of their white colleagues, but still the majority of the 
latter thought a big deal was being made of nothing. And this was in the 
context of a general discussion over whether the name and associated 
paraphenalia of the university football name - the 'Indians' - might be 
offensive to Native Americans and if so should be changed. To which the 
overwhelming response was 'we're the Indians and proud of it'.

The failure to seriously entertain the possibility of changing some aspect 
of behaviour because others find it offensive was frustrating and 
ultimately quite depressing ...


Cheers,
Steven French
[log in to unmask]
"In place of the old local and national seclusion and self-sufficiency, 
we have intercourse in every direction, universal inter-dependence of
nations. And as in material, so also in intellectual production. The 
intellectual creations of individual nations become common property. 
National one-sidedness and narrow-mindedness become more and more 
impossible, and from the numerous national and local literatures there 
arises a world literature." (Manifesto of the Communist Party, Karl Marx 
and Frederick Engels; International Publishers 1941, pp. 12-13)

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 19:02:26 1995
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From: Steven H Silver <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: [log in to unmask]
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On Tue, 9 May 1995, D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple wrote:

>  
> Vaguely relevant:  it seems odd that Feist crops up regularly in cover 
> blurbs for Janny Wurts saying "This is groundbreaking, brilliant stuff" or 
> similar.  They are married, I believe...  I wonder if she's now prominent 
> enough to do the same in return.

I think SF artist Don Maitz would be a little distraught to hear about 
this since when I saw Don & Janny back in November, they seemed very 
happily married.

Steven H Silver

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 20:04:11 1995
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From: Catherine A Murdoch <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Catherine A Murdoch <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: Catherine A Murdoch <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Best (or Better) fantasy writers
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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I don't think I would go as far as describing other fantasy writers as 
being "better" than Guy Gavriel Kay.  Like Doug, I think his Fionavar 
Tapestry is great - I have read it several times.  However, I do think 
that Mercedes Lackey, Anne McCaffrey and Raymond E. Feist are equal to Kay.


--                                                                       --
Catherine Murdoch                  | Internet: [log in to unmask]
Auchmuty Library                   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 217147
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833

"If man could be crossed with a cat, it would improve man, but it would 
 deteriorate the cat."  -  Mark Twain



From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 20:33:16 1995
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From: Joe DeRouen <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi & Why hate Trek ?
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On Tue, 9 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> I gave up watching network TV maybe 20 years ago, so I've never seen
> X-Files or Babylon-5...but are you seriously saying that, in your mind,
> they rank as highly as, to take a few out of the air, ENDER'S GAME,
> NEUROMANCER, WHEN GRAVITY FAILS, and THE DISPOSSESSED?

I don't think any of us can really compare SF television to SF 
literature.  It's two different animals, apples and oranges.  

Compared to the rest of what television has to offer, X-Files is probably 
some of the best fare out there.  Compared to good literature, of course 
it's going to fall flat.  

Joe DeRouen
[log in to unmask]



From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 23:27:53 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
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Date: Wed, 10 May 95 02:57:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Humor faves
X-Genie-Id: 3240071
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

AllGrill, I never said the lists bore me.  I said they were pointless, and I
think they are: just lists of various writers and various books, some good
and some terrible (depending on one's standards), with little practical
value.  But I do read them.  I like to keep up with what is popular in the
field these days.  Still, that kind of thing is better suited to a GEnie or
CompuServe forum; I believe it's too redolent of fanac for this rather
academic venue.
 
GAE

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May  9 23:28:41 1995
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Date: Wed, 10 May 95 02:57:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Puzzlement
X-Genie-Id: 6800682
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

Jonathan:
 
I am confused about your remark "I still don't see why George thought this
list was above my type of person."  When did I say something like that?
What do you mean?  And, come to think of it, what type of person are you?
 
(signed) "Confused and Wet in New Orleans"

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 00:46:39 1995
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Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 00:46:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Signifying Nothing <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Intertextuality
To: [log in to unmask]
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The question interests me, especially the Asimov example (paraphrased: 
an author today writes about artifical intelligences discussing 
Asimov's laws of robotics). My question would be, where do we draw the 
line between reference and plagiarism? That is, if I write a story in 
which a man goes mad after his mother murders his father and marries 
the uncle, am I "alluding to" or "plagiarizing" Hamlet? It seems 
obvious that this depends on how close the resemblance is. 

At the same time I can envision someone reading a book with the above- 
described Asimov allusion and saying to his/herself, "Hey, why Asimov? 
Why couldn't they be discussing Gibson's views of artificial 
intelligence, or John Doe's or Mary Smith's..." and then you get into 
this whole nasty issue of defending your (the author's) choice of 
Asimov, when that really isn't the point at all. Maybe I'm overly 
paranoid, but there are readers who will deliberately misunderstand 
the message in just this way.

I hope some of the above was coherent. :)

-joan
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
<D. Joan [log in to unmask]>
>Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak................<
<Whispers the o'erfraught heart and bids it break................>
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 00:50:29 1995
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Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 00:50:28 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Attitude not terminology

In a message dated 95-05-09 08:35:00 EDT, you write:

> But
>hasn't the entire discussion suggested the conclusion that people 
>AREN'T talking about the same concept? I really don't see anything
>elitist
>in people like Mike Resnik not wanting to be likened to the sort of
>stuff in FAMOUS MONSTERS OF FILMLAND. That's not the sort of stuff he
>writes. End of story.
>Andy Sawyer,
Well, When I talk about Roamnce there are a number of trashy novels w/o too
much merit beyond being able to while away some time. That isn't the whole
genre though. Shakes Romeo & Juliet is a fine Tragic Romance now isn't it,
but it is still a Romance. With anything you talk about I think most educated
people realize that terms have a range of meaning. 
 I don't think I'm being too clear, Sci-Fi & SF are abbreviations for Science
Fiction. (SF can be more generalized as Speculative Fiction, but I think
that's redundant. As someone said on this list all fiction is speculative.)
There is outstanding Science Fiction there is HORRIBLE science fiction, there
are tragic and comic SF pieces. There is a wide range of stuff and it is all
science fiction. Sci-Fi means Science Fiction to thos who use it as much as
SF means it to all of us. As some have pointed out, Sci-Fi has the advantage
of often being clearer to more people.
 There are always people who will say,"OH Science Fiction, why do you watch
that crap ?!?" Well they don't know what they are talking about. Pity them.
Explain it to them if you must. 
 The attitude is at issue here much much more than a stupid choice of
abbreviations. It is the attitude that we must change, not the terminology.
If we make everyone respect SF no one will have any reason to be upset by
whatever term is used to describe it. Face it, someone saying {cringe} skiffy
w/respect is certainly a lot better than someone calling it SF, for Shitty or
Stupid or Silly or Slumberous Fiction.
 ( Pardon my expletives )
 With that said, and the hope that we will work on attitudes rather than on
terminology, I will continue to use SF. I started cause it is easier to type,
I'll continue not to offend all who might be and cause it is still easier to
type. I hope you can all go beyond this and try to make people understand and
respect SF, as it will serve your ends more fully than making a terminology
change. After all, attitudes will persist despite minor idiomatic change. 
 Trust me I know first hand the stigma's that can be associated w/ a
profession (Ice Hockey) and skin color (I dunno not white). Until you change
peoples minds, you can call it any thing they'll still call you a brute or
continue to hate you or think you are stupid. You have to fight the problem
not the symptom.
 Gettin opionated -Alexander [log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 02:32:42 1995
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Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 23:36:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: ESPANA <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi & Why hate Trek ? (fwd)
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Espana N. Sheriff				"It ain't so much"
[log in to unmask]					BILLY THE KID
http://www.Catch22.COM/~espana	      		

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 16:58:16 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi & Why hate Trek ?

:I gave up watching network TV maybe 20 years ago, so I've never seen
:X-Files or Babylon-5...but are you seriously saying that, in your mind,
:they rank as highly as, to take a few out of the air, ENDER'S GAME,
:NEUROMANCER, WHEN GRAVITY FAILS, and THE DISPOSSESSED?

:-- Mike Resnick

Correct me if Im wrong, but your statement was that you found the "worst" 
written sf was better than the "best" televised SF, including, one would 
assume Trek episodes writen by authors such as Ellison and Sturgeon, or 
Babylon 5 episodes written by Peter David with Ellison as a consultant.
Or any Twilight Zone, Prisoner, Dr. Who (not usually plot, but dialogue)
Red Dwarf (for humour), etc.	
	Im sorry to break it to you, but there's alot of consistently 
horrible written fiction out there, there's also a lot of mediocre 
fiction out there, wether SF, Fantasy or other, and the fact that it 
is printed word rather than television or film or radio does nothing to 
raise it in my esteem at all. Good writing, plots and dialogue remain 
good wether used for television or not. 
	This said, I dont suppose for a second that even a good episode of 
X-Files, B5 or Trek will rank with Shakespeare's plays, but they're certainly 
alot closer than half of what gets passed off published as Science Fiction at 
my local bookstore.  



(Peter David, in case you havent heard of him, writes comics and some 
novelizations and such, while not high art the man writes intelligent 
humorous stuff and has a good ear for dialogue, he also writes a column 
called "But I digress") 


--  
Espana N. Sheriff                               "It ain't so much"
[log in to unmask]                                      BILLY THE KID
http://www.Catch22.COM/~espana

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 03:45:49 1995
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From: Ruth Ballam <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Plymouth
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 8:48:28 GMT
Subject: Re: Trek Pros/cons
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
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>On a recent episode of Babylon 5, one of the subplots dealt with a Babylon 5
>souvenir shop opening up on the station.  One could conceivably buy shirts,
>figures, masks, hats, etc., all related to the station and its inhabitants.
>The character Ivanova was dead set against the idea.  Her line, which struck
>both my wife and I as somewhat telling, was something on the order of "We're
>not some sort of deep space franchise out here."
>
>I wonder how much Paramount winced at that line, if anybody over there saw it.
>

Peter David wrote that episode and threw in the franchise line, fully expecting it 
to be cut. Joe left it in because he thought it was funny. What I loved was the 
teddy bear [there is a story behind the bear if anybody wants to know :-) ]


-------------------------------------------
[log in to unmask]
Ruth Ballam,
Computing Service,
University of Plymouth,
-------------------------------------------

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 05:52:10 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi & Why hate Trek ?
Date: Wed, 10 May 95 10:48:00 BST
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>>Alex, my reasons for hating trek (to a point I still watch the show)
>>is that when it comes to science fiction in general most people
>>(who don't know anything about science fiction- and there are a lot
>>of them) compares it to star trek and how well it does in that
>>comparison.
>>What they can't seem to admit to themselves is that although
>>Star Trek is science fiction not all science fiction is Star Trek.
>>This is my reason and my two cents.
>>
>>Patty Silva
> If I understand you Patty, you are telling me that you resent Trek because
>people wonder why other SF doesn't do as well, but do you mean commercially 
(
>My first thought ) or qualitatively. ( My second thought )


I thought the frequent attitude being suggested here was that of evaluating 
Show X in terms of how closely it approximates to effectively /being/ Star 
Trek (without strict reference to quality or commercial massiveness).  Seems 
to me that a lot of people know almost nothing about SF other than the ST 
(not really surprising), so that gets used as a reference point - with 
potentially dire consequences for the public image and the future of the 
genre, especially on TV and to a slightly lesser extent film.

Then again maybe Patty meant something else entirely...

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 06:33:09 1995
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF, Literature, Theory ("Intertextuality")
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 11:30:01 +0100 (BST)
From: Andy Butler <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <9505091907.396E88@martinw> from "[log in to unmask]" at May 9, 95 05:00:52 pm
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> |When SF refers to other SF this is often in a kind of in-joky fashion.
> |Part of the question of "intertextuality" is also to do with larger
> |questions than genre - ie a story involving a character who sets home
> |after a war and has a lot of adventures, culminating in returning home
> |to find someone after his wife - is going to instill remeniscences of
> |the Odyssey in the averagely well-read reader whether the author 
> |intends it
> |or not.

I think the last clause is crucial: intertextuality doesn't really 
involve the author (who's dead in this theory anyway).  The reader reads 
a novel about a long journey and return, after years, to a borderline 
faithful wife, and views it as Odyssean whether the author has heard of 
Homer or not.  (If the author - say James Joyce - has heard of Homer, 
then it's more a case of allusion than intertextuality)

Rather than Philip K. Dick's robots ruminating about the Three Laws, think
of Sladek's Tik-Tok, Roderick and Three Laws of Robish.  Again, a
deliberate reference or allusion, but not intertextuality as I understand
it.  But to sit down and read, say, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
and compare the androids' behaviour to that of Asimov's robots would be
intertextual.  And thinking about it, Jack Bohlen's trip with Arnie Kott to
the Martian shrine, and return to a less than faithful wife in Martian
Time-Slip is somewhat Odyssean.  I doubt Dick intended that. 

Oh and I hate "sci-fi" as well, until espionage novels are spy-fi, 
sentimental fiction is cry-fi, detective fiction is p-i-fi and so on.  
But my problem is: should it be SF or sf?


Cheers

Andy Butler

English Department
University of Hull
Hull
UK

[log in to unmask]

"We drift down time, clutching at straws.  But what good's a brick to a 
drowning man?"





From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 06:44:12 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi & Why hate Trek ?
Date: Wed, 10 May 95 11:37:00 BST
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Encoding: 38 TEXT
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>I gave up watching network TV maybe 20 years ago, so I've never seen
>X-Files or Babylon-5...but are you seriously saying that, in your mind,
>they rank as highly as, to take a few out of the air, ENDER'S GAME,
>NEUROMANCER, WHEN GRAVITY FAILS, and THE DISPOSSESSED?
>
>-- Mike Resnick


Not at all - I'm not sure they're easily comparable, though I can try.  On 
the other hand I think they ARE much more easily comparable to novels than 
to existing TV shows.  I'm just saying that, in my opinion, RIGHT NOW they 
are doing healthier things to the position of SF as a genre than pretty much 
any TV show since The Prisoner - and given the profile of TV compared to any 
of these novels I can't help seeing this as a good thing (aside from the 
fact that I rather enjoy both shows anyway).  That is why I think it would 
be to miss a very significant thing to leave these out of a description of 
SF today.

Some of the writing I would certainly compare in quality (obviously not in 
style) to that of Neuromancer.  The others you list I have yet to read, so 
maybe I should just refer a few couple of recently-popular things.  In many 
ways I would say it's generally superior to that of A Fire Upon the Deep. 
 It seems to me to walk all over that of Take Back Plenty (surprisingly, to 
me).  It's nowhere near the level of Dick's best, for sheer control, but for 
some reason it reminds me of my favourites of Hambly's books.  These series 
may not be at all your personal cup of tea, and no-one in any case would 
claim that they are perfect, but if you haven't seen them at all then if 
nothing else the /attention/ to quality (whether considered ultimately 
successful or otherwise) might impress you.  We are certainly and thankfully 
beginning to grow out of cowboys-in-spaceships, at least as an exclusive 
diet, and this is only being achieved by people making things for TV 
differently at last and making them so /well/ that they start to shift 
perception of the genre.  The two shows also seem to share the common factor 
of commitment to their respective stories above the fast buck franchise 
ideal apparently active elsewhere.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 07:20:18 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fantasy literature
Date: Wed, 10 May 95 12:17:00 BST
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>> Vaguely relevant:  it seems odd that Feist crops up regularly in cover
>> blurbs for Janny Wurts saying "This is groundbreaking, brilliant stuff" 
or
>> similar.  They are married, I believe...  I wonder if she's now prominent 

>> enough to do the same in return.
>
>I think SF artist Don Maitz would be a little distraught to hear about
>this since when I saw Don & Janny back in November, they seemed very
>happily married.
>
>Steven H Silver

Woops!!  Apologies to all and sundry, particularly those actually concerned. 
 I hereby nominate myself for the elaborate public suicide award.

I wonder where I heard that first time round - for some reason there was 
definitely a story along those lines.  Ah well - that will teach me to post 
without checking.  Sorry again...

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 07:44:13 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi & Why hate Trek ?
Date: Wed, 10 May 95 12:41:00 BST
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>But I tell you this.  If all televised science fiction were to drop off the
>face of the earth, it wouldn't hurt that much.  I could still read.
>
>Joe Karpierz

Sad but true.  I gather that I am regularly in some danger of sounding 
evangelical over  Babylon 5 and The X-Files, which is not my intention.  TV 
SF itself is not placed to compete with the depth and variety of books. 
 Then again, surely no aspect of TV can do that directly?  Regarding these 
two shows, anyway, my main point is that Stracjynski and Carter (the shows' 
respective creators) seem to me to be mounting a major assault aimed at 
dragging TV SF into this century and pulling a good lump of the viewing 
public with them.  This WILL, I think, make quite a difference outside the 
circle of those who know to look out for Gibson, Card, Effinger and le Guin. 
 Maybe, on the whole, those already in the circle don't need to worry about 
this but it's of interest to me!

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 07:46:56 1995
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To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fantasy literature
Date: Wed, 10 May 95 12:45:00 BST
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>Yes, Ray Feist and Janny Wurtz are married, but not to each other. Ray
>lives in San Diego with his wife, Kathy, who is also a writer; Janny
>lives in Florida with her husband, Don Maitz, a perennual Hugo nominee
>in the Pro Artist category.

Oh dear - the names in no way seem to help with the story that I clearly 
less-than-half-remember.

I wonder who I was really thinking of.

How embarrassing.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 07:53:42 1995
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Date: Wed, 10 May 95 07:32:33 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Open question for all: multiple readings

I have a question that has plagued me since subscribing to a number of
similar forums as this.  I note that a good number of people will read a
"good" book more than once.

Where do you find the time ???????????

In my own situation, I have a hard time keeping up with the books that I
have on the shelf, I could never consider re-reading any of them, even if
I did love the story.  Possibly I am a slower reader.  As of this moment,
I have at my bedside 3 novels, 1 half way read; 4 magazines; and 3
reference/technical books that I have started for reference material in
my own SF writing.  I also have 2 short stories 3/4 complete; and one
novella length story about half way finished.  Lying around the house are
4 other technical manuals that I have started dealing with computer software,
but I know I struggle to read that stuff.  Usually after a couple pages my
mind starts to wander.  (A bad habit for a Test Engineer!! :-> )
Then there is all the other activities going on that interfere with reading,
such as work, a business I own on the side, hobbies, etc...

I guess what I am looking for is, what motivates you to read books again
and again.  Do you feel there is nothing else out there that interests you?
Does it take you only 3 hours to read a 300 page novel??  What is the
motivation?

And PLEASE, don't take this in a negative light.  I am simply curious.
It seems that SF/F has the largest percentage of this type of reader.
Thanks in advance for your replies.

     Later,

Robert D. Bair
IBM Charlotte     RDBAIR at CLTVM1
CSP Test Engineering Support
[log in to unmask]
AR: WB3AHC, 1st Class FCC: P1-3-17298, Tripoli: #2253, NAR: #60163

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 07:59:54 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi & Why hate Trek ?
Date: Wed, 10 May 95 12:57:00 BST
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One more thing.  Sorry to keep pecking at this.

>I take televised science fiction (or whatever we're calling it today) in a
>completely different light.  You just cannot have the depth of storytelling
>and
>characterization in a television show as you do in a novel.  I believe it 
is
>impossible.

[...]

>There is a glut of the stuff on television these days, most of it pretty 
bad.
>I'm a Trek fan, so I watch those two shows.  I find Voyager better than 
Deep
>Space 9 (I know, who cares?).  I've watched VR.5.  Yechh.  I've watched
>Seaquest.  Yechh.  The Sliders promo turned me off.  I've watched one 
X-files.
>It was okay.  But I believe that Babylon 5 stands head and shoulders above
>them
>all.  Maybe that is a result of the fact that Harlan Ellison is involved 
with
>the show.  I don't know.

It sounds as if Ellison has the freedom to contribute absolutely what, as 
and when he feels like it.  That sounds good in itself and also promising as 
a symptom of how the show is run generally.  I've been VERY impressed with 
pretty much everything I've heard about how the work gets done by all 
concerned, actually.  But what I wanted to point out was that Babylon 5 is 
conceived as running for exactly five years - no more, no less - and that we 
are told that its overall plot and character development is all pretty much 
preset by the guy behind it already.  (One thing he says sometimes, for 
instance, is that he knows what the last line of the last episode is, and 
who will say it.)  Given, what, 80 or so hours of actual screen-time to do 
stuff that's already this co-ordinated, we may yet see a fair stab being 
made at a show that does a novel-type job.  OK, I'm a definite fan, but in 
this case I have a serious literary interest in the thing as well as a 
simple enjoyment of the entertainment.  Something new is being done, I 
believe.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 08:20:46 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF, Literature, Theory ("Intertextuality")
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 13:20:07 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <9505091907.396E88@martinw> from "[log in to unmask]" at May 9, 95 05:00:52 pm
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In the last mail [log in to unmask] said:
> 
> In response to my post on intertextuality, Andy Sawyer wrote:
> 
> 
> |I'm not sure as Dick's and Asimov's books refer to different levels of
> |fictional reality. When Dick is being intertextual he refers to works of
> |philosophy and the Bible. There's no need for him to refer to Asimov
> |except as a knowing nudge to the reader and I don't think Dick's humour
> |works on this sort of level.
> 
> Perhaps I can expand a bit on my example:  I don't envision PKD the 
> writer referring to Asimov's laws in his fiction.  Rather (taking a cue 
> from Andy's more general example), I imagine an "artificially 
> intelligent" being (such as one of PKD's androids) reflecting on early 
> attempts to regulate and shape artificial intelligence (such as Asimov's 
> three laws).  The "larger questions than genre" include those of the 
> right/responsibility of the creator relative to the created, or the 
> perceived superiority of one sentient group over another, etc.
> 
> How does that work?  (Thanks, Andy, for providing me the impetus to 
> refine my example).
> 
No, I'm still not sure, because in the end Dick is still writing the 
novel (There goes my credibility in "death of the author" theory) so any 
specific references to Asimov or the 3 laws would be one sf writer 
referring to another, and to my mind very much on the lines of
those stories which have, say, a Martian base called Clarke City or 
Port Bradbury. It could, theoretically, work in an abstract fashion as
you describe it if the AI is grappling with its own "inner drives" and
as it were comes out with something like the 3 Laws as a starting point for
speculating on the relationship between human and robot. It's an abstract
point, but interesting. Although Dick saw himself as very much part of
the sf community I'm not sure of many references he made to it in his fiction -
apart from the deity Elron in an early short story.

Of course, for intertextual references to sf, you could try 
William Burroughs, who inserted quite a lot of sf into his cut-ups.
His biography has him reading and using, for instance, various texts
by Poul Anderson. And Burroughs texts like NOVA EXPRESS are echoed in
a lot of more avant-garde references. Isn't there something about 
Gibson revising NEUROMANCER to take out the overt echoes of
Burroughs?

Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library
The University of Liverpool
051-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]

> 
> 


From cstu  Wed May 10 08:33:47 1995
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From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Open question for all: multiple readings
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There are certain titles I re-read because a) I want a good book and I 
know this is one or b) this book is a comfort book, and is best read while 
eating comfort food.  Different books have different feelings they evoke 
and sometimes I like to re-experience them.  This is true of _Bored of 
the Rings_ (to chase the blues), _War of the Oaks_ (it was just that 
good), or _The blue sword_ (a tourist trip to exotic places).  I also 
re-read all the Oz books, Mary Poppins and other good children's books, 
so maybe I am just a re-reader by nature.

Colleen
_________________________________________________________________________
Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian    [log in to unmask]
Library of Congress                                  (202) 707-4132
Washington, DC 20540-4861                       FAX: (202) 707-4142
These opinions are mine, Mine MINE!       
__________________________________________________________________________



From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 09:32:07 1995
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From: Joan Wilson <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Open question for all: multiple readings
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wed, 10 May 95 9:32:03 EDT
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Why do I read certain books again and again?  Why do people
ride a roller coaster more than once?  They already know where
they're going to get sick and on which hills they're going to
scream.  The experience was so much fun!  

-- 
Joan Wilson
[log in to unmask]
Hampton Public Library
Hampton, VA

From @CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 10:20:54 1995
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Date:         Wed, 10 May 95 09:58:00 EST
From: Doug Kuiper <@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Open Question ...: multiple readings
To: [log in to unmask]

>What motivates you to read books again and again?


I agree that there are many conflicts in reading a book multiple times.
Not only with outside interests, but all of the other literature in the
world that exists to be read.  However, I find I will read a book again
if (1) It made me laugh or cry (The Hobbit) (2) I just LOVED it (Neuromancer)
or (3) It is such a dense, encyclopedic text, that I know that I missed
much of what I could appreciate upon re-reading (Gravity's Rainbow (which I
consider neo-fantasy) or any Kafka).  This last I learned through reading
Moby Dick, a book I despised upon initial reading, tolerated on the second,
and loved on the third.

This does create choices which limit my exposure to other, new, works.  Yet
there is a certain satisfaction in truly mastering a text, in understanding
it on many levels, and recognizing the allusions to other works.  For me,
the greater understanding of the text is worth the possibility that at this
moment I might be missing something new and fantastic.

-Doug Kuiper
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 10:35:45 1995
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From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Open question for all: multiple readings
Date: Wed, 10 May 95 14:40:00 UTC
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So far as science-fiction and fantasy goes I read for enjoyment and 
stimulation.
As with other things I enjoy I don't limit myself to experiencing the 
activity just the once.

If I read a book and don't really like it I tend not to keep it, at least 
not on my limited shelf space; so my shelves are stacked with books I've 
read more than once.

Topping the tables of most read are Silver Locusts/Martian Chronicles, Lord 
of the Rings, The King of Elfland's Daughter, the original 14 Oz books, 
Ringworld/Ringworld Engineers, and Interview With The Vampire.

I re-read non-fiction too, but that's generally 'cos it takes several reads 
for me to understand them.


markw - who has too little time to do all the reading and re-reading he'd 
like to

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> Does it take you only 3 hours to read a 300 page novel??

If I really sat down and read constantly, without getting up constantly
to fix whatever, making tea, etc, I guess it would take me something
like 4 hours. But then English is my second language.

/ Hans

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 10:45:20 1995
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From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trek Pros/cons
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Yep, Ivanova's line about B5 not being "a DEEP SPACE FRANCHISE, it MEANS 
something" was the best one in the episode.

Second best part of the show was the intro and Sheridan's subsequence 
spacing of Bab-BEAR-lon 5--the teddy bear Ivanova gave him.  Since my 
wife and I are somewhat teddy bear collectors, we're hoping for an 
eventual rescue of it in a future episode!  ;D


Gary


On Tue, 9 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> > I think that the passion in Trek flamings comes from the fact that a lot of people 
> > feel let down. Trek *was* a trail blazer, now it is little more than a marketting 
> > franchise. Paramount don't want to risk their golden goose by doing anything 
> > risky and therefore, interesting. 
> 
> I'm not sure that this has any place here, but I thought that as an additional
> little tidbit to the discussion, it might be interesting.
> 
> On a recent episode of Babylon 5, one of the subplots dealt with a Babylon 5
> souvenir shop opening up on the station.  One could conceivably buy shirts,
> figures, masks, hats, etc., all related to the station and its inhabitants.
> The character Ivanova was dead set against the idea.  Her line, which struck
> both my wife and I as somewhat telling, was something on the order of "We're
> not some sort of deep space franchise out here."
> 
> I wonder how much Paramount winced at that line, if anybody over there saw it.
> 
> Joe Karpierz
> 
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 11:07:50 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Open question for all: multiple readings
Date: Wed, 10 May 95 15:56:00 BST
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>I have a question that has plagued me since subscribing to a number of
>similar forums as this.  I note that a good number of people will read a
>"good" book more than once.
>
>Where do you find the time ???????????

Personally I usually don't.  I used to.  Sometimes a particular favourite 
leaps into my hand unbidden.  "Neuromancer" did that a few months ago when I 
was bogged-down in the other things I was reading at the time.  That sort of 
thing seems to loosen-up my reading muscles sometimes.  Recently I happened 
to come across a copy of Dickson's "Necromancer" (odd coincidence...) so I 
now find myself going through the Dorsai stuff again now that it's likely to 
make a little more sense.  Usually I feel too scared by the proportion of 
books in my possession that I have yet to read to allow myself to go back 
over others.  Then again I feel stupid trying to discuss things I read 
twenty years ago as if I could really remember them well, so that can prompt 
the occasional foray into history.  (Andre Norton next for that treatment, 
perhaps.)  Overall, though, I have the same problem with books as I have 
with music - the depressing knowledge that there's bound to be stuff in both 
sizeable collections that is destined never to be enjoyed again - by me, at 
least.  I tell myself, then, that the collections are there for reference, 
just in case (but in case of what...?).  I presume that this is a common 
situation.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 11:36:05 1995
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From: Ruth Ballam <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Plymouth
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 13:48:11 GMT
Subject: Re: Open question for all: multiple readings
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
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>Date:          Wed, 10 May 1995 08:19:12 -0400
>Reply-to:      [log in to unmask]
>From:          [log in to unmask]
>To:            Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject:       Open question for all: multiple readings
>
>I have a question that has plagued me since subscribing to a number of
>similar forums as this.  I note that a good number of people will read a
>"good" book more than once.
>
>Where do you find the time ???????????
>
>I guess what I am looking for is, what motivates you to read books again
>and again.  Do you feel there is nothing else out there that interests you?
>Does it take you only 3 hours to read a 300 page novel??  What is the
>motivation?
>

Well a 300 page book takes a little more than 3 hours :-) but if there's nothing on 
TV (or only one programme worth watching) and I'm all out of new books then 
it's nice to dig out an old favourite and reread it (300 pages will fill an evening). 

My main problem with new books is buying them. I can read more in a month 
than I can afford. Also a "good" book is worth rereading in the same way that a 
good film is worth rewatching, you notice more of the little details the second 
time. 


-------------------------------------------
[log in to unmask]
Ruth Ballam,
Computing Service,
University of Plymouth,
-------------------------------------------

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 11:48:17 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Open question for all: multiple readings

>Why do I read certain books again and again?  Why do people
>ride a roller coaster more than once?  They already know where
>they're going to get sick and on which hills they're going to
>scream.  The experience was so much fun!
>
>--
>Joan Wilson

I like the analogy!

But...  what if to get back on, you must wait in a long, long line.
Over in Fantasyland, there is another ride that you heard was great also,
but the line is equally long.  Would you decide to ride Cyber Mountain again,
knowing how exciting the thrill is, and how much you loved it, or would you
stand in the equally same long line to ride The Mirror of Her Screams thrill
ride that is new, but unknown?

     Later,

Robert D. Bair
IBM Charlotte     RDBAIR at CLTVM1
CSP Test Engineering Support
[log in to unmask]
AR: WB3AHC, 1st Class FCC: P1-3-17298, Tripoli: #2253, NAR: #60163

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 11:53:26 1995
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Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 11:53:26 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Why hate Trek ? & TV and other media.

In a message dated 95-05-09 16:58:49 EDT, you write:

>I gave up watching network TV maybe 20 years ago, so I've never seen
>X-Files or Babylon-5...but are you seriously saying that, in your
>mind,
>they rank as highly as, to take a few out of the air, ENDER'S GAME,
>NEUROMANCER, WHEN GRAVITY FAILS, and THE DISPOSSESSED?
>
>-- Mike Resnick
>
>
 None of these shows are consistently up to that level, but they all get into
the ballpark at least when they get good. They are limited by format. 
 Imagine, if you will,  a TV versionof ENDER'S GAME or NEUROMANCER.  You have
entered the Primetime zone...
 OK OK,It just hit me though. Point is this stuff can be really good. As good
as I think TV has ever been, and it gets better as people write for it more
and more. They build plots around its limitations, and the effects get better
and more common, especially all those effects you're not suppose to realize
are effects. There is a reason there is are awards categories for all that
stuff too, namely they deserve it, but they have different limitations. Like
comparing SF artwork and short stories and novels. They all have to be judged
differently. Depending on your tastes one may not suit you. 
 TV is an evolving medium. It has only been around a short time when compared
to writing. In the last 40 or so years TV has come much further than writing
did in its first 1000. Film is older than TV, but still infantile compared to
writing. 
 Computer media are evolving even faster. They have affected writing, TV,
film and just about every other artform we know. Yes even oil painting. Alas
I stray. My point is simply that we have to tolerate and nurture evolving medi
a and try to contribute what we can to make them grow.
 Mike how about writing an original screenplay or teleplay ? Maybe just for
your own entertainment. If you've done one I'm unaware of it. (You could
accuse me of being unaware of much, but I'm working on it.) I try writing all
the time and I think I suck, but it makes me appreciate what you write.
 Am I starting to preach ?? Well amen and goodbye for now. I'm certain I'll
snnoy more later.
 Take Care -Alexander [log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 11:57:15 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Trek Pros/cons
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>Yep, Ivanova's line about B5 not being "a DEEP SPACE FRANCHISE, it MEANS
>something" was the best one in the episode.
>
>Second best part of the show was the intro and Sheridan's subsequence
>spacing of Bab-BEAR-lon 5--the teddy bear Ivanova gave him.  Since my
>wife and I are somewhat teddy bear collectors, we're hoping for an
>eventual rescue of it in a future episode!  ;D

I've an idea that this has already been mentioned, but in case it hasn't the 
story is that That Bear was given to Stracjynski by Peter David (who wrote 
the episode) when the script was accepted.  Stracjynski told him he'd get 
him for that, and contrived to work into the episode the spacing of the 
defenceless bear on the grounds that it was offensively cute.  He talks with 
some warmth of filming the bear against the blue-screen, the bear's 
posterior firmly impaled on a long stick.

Those whacky people...

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 12:48:01 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: humor in SF&F

My favorite funny person in SF is Fredric Brown.  Just can't beat some of his
short shorts.  In fantasy, does anyone else like Thorne Smith? Night Life of the Gods and Skin & Bones crack me up every time I read them.

PS: to M. Resnick,  I would like to hear the story also.  And, I loved the Talesof the Galactic Midway.

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 13:07:04 1995
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Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 12:06:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: Daniel S Goodman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: David Wingrove
To: [log in to unmask]
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On Mon, 8 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> I've recently had a series of SF novels recommended to me:  _Chung Kuo_,
> _The Broken Wheel_, _The White Mountain_, _The Stone Within_, all by
> David Wingrove.  Apparently they are based on a projection of Chinese
> feudal society and Taoism into the future.  Before I plunge into this
> 2000+pp epic, I thought I'd ask what other readers on our list may have
> felt about this series.

Do you like really long series?  If I recall correctly, the complete 
series is supposed to be 42 books.  Each of the books published so far is 
bulkier than the average trilogy.  Before plunging in, I would advise 
looking at a library copy of one of the books published so far.  It's not 
a 2000+pp epic -- it's much longer than that.

I didn't like the author's style, and the passages I looked at seemed to 
me to move slowly.

Dan Goodman [log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 13:30:59 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Humor faves

GAE,

These lists are  valuable to me because I like to read what's on them.
  That's all.  It's a cultural enrichment kind of thing, you know what I'm
saying?  There is no point.  It's just for fun.

Why can't academics have fun, too?

AllGrill

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 13:33:08 1995
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Date:         Wed, 10 May 95 13:25:03 EDT
From: Sean Alan Wallace <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Open question for all: multiple readings
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 10 May 1995 08:20:26 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

>Where do you find the time ???????????

For the most part, most of us are students, researchers, and/or teachers...
As we are sf buffs, we MAKE THE TIME...I usually read late at night for
about 4 hours, finish a book, and then go to bed feeling really great if the
book was really good. I won't sacrifice my reading time to nothing,
nobody, not even my job - all that is done in the daytime. At night,
it's MY WORLD.

>I guess what I am looking for is, what motivates you to read books again
>and again.  Do you feel there is nothing else out there that interests you?
>Does it take you only 3 hours to read a 300 page novel??  What is the
>motivation?

What motivates us? Consider this: outta of the thousands of books I've have
read, I consider only a hundred really good to read over and over. Those
100 become the basis on how we grade/judge others. Those are the forerunners -
they are our guides. I read them over and over because - hey, a great book
is a great book. True, I know what's going to happen, but now I understand
why, how, and the book moves smoother. As for reading time, it usually
takes me about 2 hours for a 237 book, whereas a 300 page - maybe 4 hours
tops. A larger book than that takes up to 2 days - no less, no more.

>And PLEASE, don't take this in a negative light.  I am simply curious.
>It seems that SF/F has the largest percentage of this type of reader.
>Thanks in advance for your replies.

Maybe you don't have the same push/desire we have. Some people just READ
the books as a side object. We sf-lovers read it through and through
and try to understand every little tidbit in it. Some of us are driven
to produce fanzines, others are driven to write sf as a result, and some
are driven into fields related to sf. I don't know whether or not you have
that burning desire. (did any of that make sense ;-)   - Sean -

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 13:44:24 1995
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Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 13:44:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Why hate Trek ? & TV and other media.
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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I've written a couple of screenplays. One, an adaptation of my novel SANTIAGO,
will theoretically be filmed within a year.

It's a totally different discipline, which is why so many novelists
go out there to conquer the industry and promptly disappear. Most movies
can't handle much more plot and cerebration than gets put into a short
story, and you have to remember that a novel that reaches 400,000 readers
will be on the bestseller lists for half a year, while a film that
reaches 4,000,000 viewers is a bomb. In other words, don't make 'em
think too hard with a movie; it hurts their heads.

Even in Hollywood, writing -anything-  -- novels, poetry, screenplays -- ranks
above writing for TV, which on a pay and pride scale is the lowest
of the low, at least among all the writers and executives I've met out there.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 13:48:22 1995
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Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 13:48:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: humor in SF&F
To: [log in to unmask]
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Uh...-what- story would you like to hear also?

Yeah, I remember Thorne Smith. In fact, I just wrote a story in his
style for a Sherlock Holmes anthology Marvin Kaye it putting together.
He goes on the fictional assumption that Doyle dies in 1920, and the
estate farms out all the untold stories (like the Giant Rat of Sumatra)
to the leading writers of the day -- Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Gertrude
Stein, Edgar Rice Burroughs, etc. So each of us had a double challenge:
complete a story that Watson briefly referred to, and do it in the style
of the author who was assigned to us. 

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 14:07:11 1995
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From: katie auslander <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Open question for all: multiple readings
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 14:07:15 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "[log in to unmask]" at May 10, 95 11:56:29 am
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> 
> >Why do I read certain books again and again?  Why do people
> >ride a roller coaster more than once?  They already know where
> >they're going to get sick and on which hills they're going to
> >scream.  The experience was so much fun!
> >
> >--
> >Joan Wilson
> 
> I like the analogy!
> 
> But...  what if to get back on, you must wait in a long, long line.
> Over in Fantasyland, there is another ride that you heard was great also,
> but the line is equally long.  Would you decide to ride Cyber Mountain again,
> knowing how exciting the thrill is, and how much you loved it, or would you
> stand in the equally same long line to ride The Mirror of Her Screams thrill
> ride that is new, but unknown?

	The long line to wait for the roller coaster could be seen as the
wait in the library for the book to come in...

				-Katie...:)


> 
>      Later,
> 
> Robert D. Bair
> IBM Charlotte     RDBAIR at CLTVM1
> CSP Test Engineering Support
> [log in to unmask]
> AR: WB3AHC, 1st Class FCC: P1-3-17298, Tripoli: #2253, NAR: #60163
> 


From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 15:56:47 1995
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Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 12:54:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Open question for all: multiple readings--reply to Sean

Ah, Sean,

How young you must be...how independenly wealthy...how wonderful for you
that you can read to the exclusion of real life considerations.

As for "we SF-lovers" speak for yourself.  Try maintaining a household on
one and one half salaries in a community that underpays its folks, and
lays-off other folks.  Try finding time to read when you are responsible for
that household and EVERYTHING that that word implys.  Try being a little
sensitive to others who obviously do not have the luxuries that you are able
to flaunt.

Julie
[log in to unmask]


In message Wed, 10 May 1995 14:14:22 -0400,
  Sean Alan Wallace <[log in to unmask]>  writes:

>
>>Where do you find the time ???????????
>>
>
> For the most part, most of us are students, researchers, and/or teachers...
> As we are sf buffs, we MAKE THE TIME...I usually read late at night for
> about 4 hours, finish a book, and then go to bed feeling really great if the
> book was really good. I won't sacrifice my reading time to nothing,
> nobody, not even my job - all that is done in the daytime. At night,
> it's MY WORLD.
>
>
>>I guess what I am looking for is, what motivates you to read books again
>>   and again.  Do you feel there is nothing else out there that interests
>> you? Does it take you only 3 hours to read a 300 page novel??  What is the
>>  motivation?
>>
>
> What motivates us? Consider this: outta of the thousands of books I've have
> read, I consider only a hundred really good to read over and over. Those
> 100 become the basis on how we grade/judge others. Those are the
> forerunners - they are our guides. I read them over and over because - hey,
> a great book is a great book. True, I know what's going to happen, but now
> I understand why, how, and the book moves smoother. As for reading time, it
> usually takes me about 2 hours for a 237 book, whereas a 300 page - maybe 4
> hours tops. A larger book than that takes up to 2 days - no less, no more.
>
>
>>And PLEASE, don't take this in a negative light.  I am simply curious.
>>  It seems that SF/F has the largest percentage of this type of reader.
>>  Thanks in advance for your replies.
>>
>
> Maybe you don't have the same push/desire we have. Some people just READ
> the books as a side object. We sf-lovers read it through and through
> and try to understand every little tidbit in it. Some of us are driven
> to produce fanzines, others are driven to write sf as a result, and some
> are driven into fields related to sf. I don't know whether or not you have
> that burning desire. (did any of that make sense ;-)   - Sean -
>
From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 17:15:10 1995
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Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 17:15:09 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Open question for all: multiple readings

 Well scarily enough, it actually takes me about 5 hours to read a good 300
page or so novel. I can do it much faster, but it isn't any fun, and I have
to digest it for a day or so before I can remember much. I have a lot of
trouble focusing on technical material as well and often just have to plow
through it as fast as I can and depend on my "post processing facilities."
 I reread for the simple enjoyment of it, as someone said like riding a
roller coaster again and again. Sometimes I pick up an old book and just read
my favorite passages. If time permits I might also just wander around the
book reading bits and pieces here and there. Sometimes I even rewrite
segments to suit my fancy, making the characters act as I thought they should
have when I originally read the book. I often rewrite my rewriting. 
 I guess, I'm saying that I don't like to just pass through a book, I like to
experience it, make it mine. I spend a lot of time with books I care about. I
allow them to affect me as much as I try to affect them.
 I starting to feel almost mystical so I'm quitting on this one.
 I would like to add that although I read fast, I type slowly. I am simply
going to have to buy a computer voice dication system, or else I'll never
write anything in reasonable time.
 -Alexander [log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 17:15:45 1995
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Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 17:15:45 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF, Literature, Theory ("Intertextuality")

In a message dated 95-05-10 08:01:19 EDT, you write:

>Oh and I hate "sci-fi" as well, until espionage novels are spy-fi, 
>sentimental fiction is cry-fi, detective fiction is p-i-fi and so on.
>
>But my problem is: should it be SF or sf?
>
>
>Cheers
>
>Andy Butler
>
>
 You know, I hate to say this, but I like the sound of all those xyz-FI's. It
kind of tickles my funny bone.

As to your question: I have no idea, but I always capitalize SF. (At least I
try to.)

-Alexander

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 17:42:04 1995
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Date:         Wed, 10 May 95 17:39:53 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi & Why hate Trek ?
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Sat, 6 May 1995 08:52:06 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

You know, when we talk about the six inch skirts in original trek, we
ought to remember that many of us young women also wore six inch skirts
as our regular attire.  Remember the sixties?  Remember mini-skirts and
go-go boots.  It really does look much stranger now, when we don't wear
skirts that length.


Camille

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 17:47:32 1995
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Date:         Wed, 10 May 95 17:43:05 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Alternate media
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Sat, 6 May 1995 08:57:59 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]>

Gary--the problem with using an ftp hpertext program is that my
publisher wants linear text for acid free paper.  We know acid-free
ink on acid free paper lasts hundreds of years, and we don't have a life
expectancy on electronic media yet.  But, it does seem that as writers of
books of and about science fiction, we are being bypassed by the very
technology about which we write.  It is sort of like using a quill pen
to write about automated printing presses--if you know enough to go back
and tell the natives about the new technology, you are frustrated  by the
technology you must use to connect with the folks back home.  Sigh.

Camille

From cstu  Thu May 11 07:26:04 1995
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Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 07:26:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi & Why hate Trek ?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Thu, 11 May 1995, Camille wrote:

> You know, when we talk about the six inch skirts in original trek, we
> ought to remember that many of us young women also wore six inch skirts
> as our regular attire.  Remember the sixties?  Remember mini-skirts and
> go-go boots.  It really does look much stranger now, when we don't wear
> skirts that length.

And we have to keep in mind the context of the time; to have women on a 
combat ship AND in officer's positions was radical for the 1960's.  By 
today's standards, it is lame and if the new ST shows continued this, 
they would be sexist.  
Colleen
_________________________________________________________________________
Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian    [log in to unmask]
Library of Congress                                  (202) 707-4132
Washington, DC 20540-4861                       FAX: (202) 707-4142
These opinions are mine, Mine MINE!       
__________________________________________________________________________



From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 17:47:56 1995
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From: Steve <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: multiple readings


  From: [log in to unmask]

  I have a question that has plagued me since subscribing to a number of
  similar forums as this.  I note that a good number of people will read a
  "good" book more than once.

The pleasures which are most intense in a first reading (excitement, exposure
to the new, that kind of thing) are not particularly important to me. I often
read the last 20-30 pages of a book before starting, so that I don't get
distracted by that sort of thing. On the other hand, second and subsequent
readings reveal nuances, interconnections, implications, and inter-
textualities which are difficult to pick up the first time through. If you
know what's coming, it's easier to see how it comes.

Given these pleasures, some books stand up to second readings a lot better
than others. As it happens, books that stand up to rereadings well are also
books I like better the first time through. So, it all works out well for me ;)

I think this is a different reason than the "I liked it at the shore last
summer, can we go back this year?" thing that other people have been talking
about. 

I believe acedemic readers in general, and readers of "literary" fiction, 
also tend to read books more often than the average reader.

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 18:39:14 1995
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Date:         Wed, 10 May 95 18:32:46 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Terms of Endearment, Teachers' Opinions, Media SF
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Sun, 7 May 1995 20:44:48 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]>

Brenda, Highlander is fantasy.  He is a magical creature--immortal--
and he carries a magical item--a sword, which is magical because it
is one of the few things that can kill an immortal.  There are no
scientific or pseudo-scientific explanations for how things work--they
just do.  And there is no technological or other-worldly explanation,
except something no-one bought in the MOVIE THAT DOES NOT EXIST.

As for SEAQUEST, well, I'd call it sci-fi in the grand old tradition of
rubber monsters.  I'd sort of give EARTH 2 a "wait and see," because they
seem to want to address some interesting issues and it also seems to be
developing some depth of character and motivation.  AS for SPACE PRECINCT,

personally, I wouldn't dignifiy it with any status as sf.  SPACE COPS,
now, that one isn't bad.

Camille

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 18:44:26 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Why reread books?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 10 May 1995 08:20:28 EDT."
             <[log in to unmask]> 
Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 18:44:23 EDT
From: Marcus C Sarofim <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Length: 1460


Hello!

In answer to your question, why do some of us read novels multiple
times? 

First, a 500 page novel (the Lions of Al-Rassan) will take me about
5 hours to read the first time... if I ever reread it (not likely,
since I don't own it, but always possible) it will take significantly
less time (probably 3 hours or so). So it isn't _that_ much time.

Second: you often get a lot out of a second reading - subtleties of
the author, references that are impossible to understand without
knowing events that happen in the future, etc.

Third: After reading a book with great characterization, you begin
to feel like the main characters are "friends" and to revisit them,
one needs to read the book again. (I feel this with acting too - 
after spending a month rehearsing Three Sisters [Anton Chekhov]
every performance was like revisiting the family, and therefore
something comfortable and enjoyable. And something I miss, now that
its over...).

Also, I don't only reread SF. I reread books like A Picture of
Dorian Grey and Count of Monte Cristo as well.

Finally, a lot of SF reads more quickly than many books in other
genres: I wouldn't want to read Foucault's Pendulum at 100 pages
an hour, nor Don Quijote de La Mancha, nor 100 Years of Solitude.
(There are exceptions to this, of course. I found Red Mars took
me a long time - I enjoyed it a lot, but it was a very slow book
to read.).

-Marcus

p.s. And technical books of any sort take forever...

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 19:11:58 1995
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Date:         Wed, 10 May 95 19:04:33 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: TREK SITES AND DISCUSSIONS (fwd)
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Mon, 8 May 1995 09:39:43 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]>

Ummm--I have to take exception to prohibiting discussion of certain Trek
episodes here.

Clearly, this is not the place for "oh, golly, wow," stuff, or
"That babblewave machine in episode three should have made Captain Red
Shirt turn blue in episode seven hundred and ten."

But, there are good things that merit discussion even in Trek episodes.
If it is okay to discuss the content for thought of a book like
THE WIZARD OF EARTHSEA, why isn't it all right to discuss what makes
CHAIN OF COMMAND distinctive, thoughtful, and insightful television?

Camille
(Who is a bona fide academic, and who is really tired of seeing
television dismissed out of hand.  If we don't examine the good, and
encourage it, we will get only the bad, by default--and de fault will
be ours!)

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 19:47:10 1995
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Date:         Wed, 10 May 95 19:44:17 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Left Hand
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Tue, 9 May 1995 07:29:24 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

Joan--I think LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS may be a bit more difficult
than some other books, because the underlying philosophy is Taoist,
not Christian.   If I were trying to do it, though, I don't think
I'd cast Genli Ai as the Christ figure.  St. Thomas, maybe.

Camille

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 20:07:06 1995
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Date:         Wed, 10 May 95 19:50:34 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Humor in SF
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Tue, 9 May 1995 07:54:50 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

George, at the risk of offending where no offense is meant, I have
never seen your funny stuff on the shelves at my local Borders or Waldens.
Is it still in print?  Where can we get some?

Camille

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 20:25:31 1995
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Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 18:25:19 -0600 (MDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Search for an old SF story
To: [log in to unmask]
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Can anyone out there identify the following story and its author:  it is
about someone who creates creatures tht personify great works of music.
They apparently evolve for survival and when they are 'played back',
the results, in a musical sense, are horrendous.

I just have a vague flicker of recall on this one...and need help.

Rick

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 20:32:09 1995
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Date:         Wed, 10 May 95 20:26:23 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Space Merchants
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Tue, 9 May 1995 16:51:32 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

I have required SPACE MERCHANTS in my sf classes both in folklore and
literature departments, but I don't know about marketing departments.
I do know that my students don't like it.  They think it is boring and
oversimplified and not really fiction anymore, so what's the point?

I find this attitude pretty annoying, but I can't figure out what to
do to give my students a sense that the present doesn't exist in a
vacuum.  Camille

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 20:41:53 1995
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Date:         Wed, 10 May 95 20:36:35 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi & Why hate Trek ?
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 10 May 1995 07:14:55 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]>

Actually, the best of X-Files can stand up to most sf these days.  Of
course, like written sf, X-Files is seldom at its best.

The problem may be that different things make visual media interesting.
No, they can't tell you in words what is going on in somebody's head,
but good performances can leave you in litte doubt.  The abduction arc
in X-Files had amazing performances, music, lighting, direction that
all contributed to the primary message that the dialog carried, and a
brooding melancholy that we haven't seen on television for a long time,
and don't often get in writing either.  OF course, when it is bad, it is
pretty bad, but I'd like to see the same set of talent get their hands on

WHEN GRAVITY FAILS.  These guys really know noir!

Camille

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 20:45:10 1995
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Date:         Wed, 10 May 95 20:43:25 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Intertextuality
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 10 May 1995 07:27:45 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

For you intertextuality guys, I'd recommend Edward Said, THE WORD, THE
TEXT, AND THE CRITIC."  It is a terrific critique of the cult of
the unique in canonical Western literature, and how out of synch with
the rest of world literatures the whole notion is.

Camille

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 20:56:18 1995
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From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Open question for all: multiple readings
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 10 May 1995 08:20:22 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

Robert--I read my favorite books over and over again.  For one thing,
my memory was damaged in an illness, and I can't remember the things I
read very well, so I have to reread them if I want to remember what is in
them.  But I reread even before I suffered memory loss.  Sometimes I prefer
to experience again something I know I like rather than risk disappointment
with something new.  And some things are just too good to leave behind,
or too complex to understand in the richness they deserve in only one reading.

C.J. Cherryh sf I reread because it is too complicated to appreciate the
first time.   I're reread LeGuin's LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS at least a dozen
times, to teach it, but I still find something new to think about.
And Tolkein I reread because it comforts me to do so.

Many reasons.  And I am slow to take on a new author, I'm afraid.  My life
has too much uncertainty to add to it in my down time!

Camille

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 22:03:31 1995
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Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 11:58:07 +1000 (EST)
From: Mr RW Farnell <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: INTERZONE on Net?
To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Having recently found all the back issues of _CHEAP TRUTH_ posted
 on the Net, I was wondering if _INTERZONE_ issues might also be
lurking out there somewhere, especially back issues. If so , could 
someone please post me the site where I can find them.

If not, does anyone know where they might be available in Australia?

Thanks

Ross Farnell
Monash Uni
Melbourne Australia


From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 23:00:25 1995
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Date:         Wed, 10 May 95 22:42:50 EDT
From: Catherine Morgan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Intertextuality
To: [log in to unmask]

CJ Cherryh uses what appears to be intertextuality (if I understand the term
correctly) in _Forty Thousand in Gehenna_. In chapter II.vii, in a lecture on
the flora and fauna of their destination, the reptilian builders are referred
to as Caliban and Ariel. "Caliban is a character in a play; he was big and ugly
.  That's what the probe crew called him." (32).
     It seems to me a tribute to literature that SF authors portend that the
thread of earth culture will be carried across the galaxy. I'm not sure, usuall
y, that that thread will survive public education, let alone transverse the
lightyears. (Sorry, at best I'm a cynic, mostly to avoid being disappointed.
You may also read coward instead of cynic. ;-)  ).
     Not having read the endnotes for Brust's _Phoenix Guards_, I was most plea
santly surprised to find echoes of Dumas' _The Three Musketeers_. Now, this is
not an argument for intertextuality; however, the flavour was indeed agreeable.

              --Cat.

Catherine Buck Morgan
College of Library & Information Science, USC
[log in to unmask]
Phone (803)951-3144

If I am not for myself, Who is for me?
If I am only for myself, Who am I?
If not now, When?

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 23:07:02 1995
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Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 20:07:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fran Skene <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sci-fi and proud of it!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.950508152226.7406B-100000@dale>
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On Mon, 8 May 1995, Jesse Saich wrote:

> Well put. As one who has been "lurking" for several weeks as well, I 
> found the "discussion" concerning SF vs. Sci-Fi rather disturbing.  While 
> I tried to understand the position of the "fans" and "pros," I continually
> found myself bewildered by the lack of tolerance to the issue.  I *enjoy* 
> Science Fiction in many forms.  Perhaps if I had a more vested interest 
> in the genre I would be more defensive (sensitive?) about its name.  

***
I once was avid about calling science/speculative fiction/fantasy "SF"
rather than "skiffy" (which is how I pronounce it when I'm in a dialogue
with others who use "sci fi").  But that was when I was an avid fan (read
"fanatic").  Now I've mostly "gafiated" (read: get away from it all) -
chalk it up to old age (I've a nine-month-old grandson, after all) and to
developments in my life that drastically reduced the importance of SF
fandom. 

What I'm working up to is that, while the use of the term "sci fi"
sounds like fingernails across a blackboard to me, I have no wish to alter
the vocabulary of those have the same reaction in reverse! 

Cheers,   Fran


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fran Skene                                      a gopher on the
[log in to unmask]                                electronic cowpath....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 23:10:35 1995
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Date:         Wed, 10 May 95 23:01:22 EDT
From: Catherine Morgan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      RE: Reading and re-reading
To: [log in to unmask]

I agree with Colleen about the "comfort zone" that some books provide. When I
am in need of a good friend, I turn to childhood's favorites: Scott's _Ivanhoe_
; Dumas' _The Three Musketeers_ --actually nearly anything by pere or fils;
Vernes' _40,000 Leagues_. As an adult, my reading has slowed--something to do
with 3 kids, grad school, etc.-- but MZB's _Avalon_ and Michner's _The Source_
have become part of the list. Just in case you're saying these aren't quite in
the genre, allow me to add Anthony's Tarot series and his Immortals.

    But still I regret there is so little time and so many books.....

                                             --Cat.

Catherine Buck Morgan
College of Library & Information Science, USC
[log in to unmask]
Phone (803)951-3144

If I am not for myself, Who is for me?
If I am only for myself, Who am I?
If not now, When?

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 23:15:44 1995
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Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 20:15:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fran Skene <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: David Wingrove
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On Mon, 8 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> I've recently had a series of SF novels recommended to me:  _Chung Kuo_,
> _The Broken Wheel_, _The White Mountain_, _The Stone Within_, all by
> David Wingrove.  Apparently they are based on a projection of Chinese
> feudal society and Taoism into the future.  Before I plunge into this
> 2000+pp epic, I thought I'd ask what other readers on our list may have
> felt about this series.

***
My one experience with this series was when I dipped into a horrific 
scene in book one (sexual torture and murder).  I put the book down and 
have had no desire to read it or the series.

This is not to say that others would be as horrified as I.  It's a very 
popular series, and obviously involved a lot of research on the part of 
the author.  Moreover, the books are available in my library.  We 
librarians avoid censorship as much as we can.

Cheers,   Fran


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fran Skene                                      a gopher on the
[log in to unmask]                                electronic cowpath....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------



From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 10 23:33:44 1995
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Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 23:33:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Open question for all: multiple readings
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Wed, 10 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> I guess what I am looking for is, what motivates you to read books again
> and again.

A bad memory.  After 10 to 20 years I tend to forget things or mix them 
up with the 50 or so novels and short story collections I read per year.

So I have to re-read a few classics now and then to know what I am 
talking about or to discover things I had not noticed when I was younger.

> Do you feel there is nothing else out there that interests you?

Sure, leisure non-fiction takes up much more of my reading time.

> Does it take you only 3 hours to read a 300 page novel??

Less sometimes, if I it is riveting and if I do it in one sitting.  
Actually, I should not call it a sitting, since continuously change 
reading positions.

> What is the motivation?

Pleasure.  Nothing else

Bye!

DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 01:57:31 1995
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Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 01:57:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Humor faves
To: [log in to unmask]
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Read your U. S. Constitution, Article 37, Paragraph 4: "Academics are
not allowed to have fun."

Q.E.D.

Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 03:36:57 1995
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Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 17:40:15 +1000 (EST)
From: Catherine A Murdoch <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Open question for all: multiple readings
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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If I really enjoyed a book, then I would re-read it.  I frequently 
re-read books, just as I sometimes watch a movie more than once.

--                                                                       --
Catherine Murdoch                  | Internet: [log in to unmask]
Auchmuty Library                   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 217147
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833

"If man could be crossed with a cat, it would improve man, but it would 
 deteriorate the cat."  -  Mark Twain


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 04:53:52 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 11 May 95 09:56:02 BST
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Reading books.


	The remarks about reading reminded me of something I copied years
ago and have on an index card on my wall.
	My [poor] translation of it is:
	'Better is the reading of one day than the writing of many, for that
which is written in many days can be read in one.'  Augustine, De Musica (pr).
	Sometimes I read - sometimes I write.
						f.

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 06:35:41 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF, Literature, Theory ("Intertextuality")
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 11:23:30 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Andy Butler" at May 10, 95 08:00:37 am
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In the last mail Andy Butler said:
> 
> > |When SF refers to other SF this is often in a kind of in-joky fashion.
> > |Part of the question of "intertextuality" is also to do with larger
> > |questions than genre - ie a story involving a character who sets home
> > |after a war and has a lot of adventures, culminating in returning home
> > |to find someone after his wife - is going to instill remeniscences of
> > |the Odyssey in the averagely well-read reader whether the author 
> > |intends it
> > |or not.
> 
> I think the last clause is crucial: intertextuality doesn't really 
> involve the author (who's dead in this theory anyway).  The reader reads 
> a novel about a long journey and return, after years, to a borderline 
> faithful wife, and views it as Odyssean whether the author has heard of 
> Homer or not.  (If the author - say James Joyce - has heard of Homer, 
> then it's more a case of allusion than intertextuality)

How about this? Intertextuality is a matter of reflections of the common
culture shared by reader and writer, the kind of automatic language of
character, imagery and plot which "come naturally", more or less unconsciously.
If the writer deliberately makes reference to other works of literature, we
have allusions. (and if the writer deliberately attempts to make the reader
feel that the first-mentioned process is happening, we have postmodernism:-)

> 
> Oh and I hate "sci-fi" as well, until espionage novels are spy-fi, 
> sentimental fiction is cry-fi, detective fiction is p-i-fi and so on.  

Thank you for another fascinating thread which will go on and on. And fiction
about paranormal powers is of course psi-fi. Rather mournful tearjerkers are
sigh-fi. Postmodernist stuff involving "unreliable narrators" is lie-fi. ANIMAL
FARM and CHARLOTTE'S WEB are both examples of sty-fi.


> But my problem is: should it be SF or sf?

Nuke Hull!!

Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library
The University of Liverpool
051-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]



From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 06:40:54 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Open question for all: multiple readings
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 11:33:40 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "[log in to unmask]" at May 10, 95 08:19:12 am
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In the last mail [log in to unmask] said:
> 
> I have a question that has plagued me since subscribing to a number of
> similar forums as this.  I note that a good number of people will read a
> "good" book more than once.
> 
> Where do you find the time ???????????
> 
> In my own situation, I have a hard time keeping up with the books that I
> have on the shelf, I could never consider re-reading any of them, even if
> I did love the story.  

The short answer is that I make the time by not watching nearly enough televison
and not mowing the lawn nearly enough.

I am also a fast reader - probably too fast - and I travel to and from work
on public transport which gives me an hour at least a day to either read or
stare out of the window.

But this is a good question. I like to re-read. I don't consider a book is
really a favourite unless I want to re-read it. So as well as all the books
I HAVEN'T read which I feel I really must, I have a long list of books which
I really want to re-read. This is in addition to books like, say delany's
Neveryona series which in the light of stuff I have read since I very much 
want to re-read on the basis that I will get more out of them now - and I
DID like them first time round, just that by the time you've finished the
end, you want to go back to the beginning because the later events shed
light on what happened earlier (as in, say, Wolfe's NEW SUN books which I 
re-read in the summer) - and things like earlier volumes of series of which
I now have the second and third volumes and really want to re-read so that
I can recall what happened.  And all this is in addition to stuff I have to 
re-read because I'm teaching or writing about it or discussing it.

If you think YOU feel inadequate, that's nothing on what I feel when
I survey the tottering mounds of books . . . 

Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library
The University of Liverpool
051-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]



From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 06:45:41 1995
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Date:         Thu, 11 May 95 11:38:10 BST
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject:      Re: New thread!!          Anyone read Vurt?
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Thu, 4 May 1995 11:52:12 -0400

I have decided to abandon the photocopying debate as it got too boring, just as
 long as no one thinks I am a criminal! I am a respectable postgraduate student
. Last word: George, I think I was confused.....sorry!

NEW!! Has anyone read VURT by Jeff Noon, a Manchester based SF novel published
last year which won the Arthur C.Clarke prize. the sequel POLLEN has just been
published (although the publisher has since gone bust. I believe it is availabl
e in the states. VURT is great, strange lo-tech cyberpunk. In my early days as
a sad e-mailer I came across a very old 'Cyberpunk canon' article and I suggest
ed VURT but the response was 'very punk, not very cyber' from a well known nove
list who I unfortunately plagued with my message.

This makes me wonder how cyberpunk is being defined - certainly I think VURT ha
s a very British spin on the trad cyber-fiction, although its quite strange to
be discussing something as 'traditional ' already. I wondered if anyone on the
list had read the book? It appears to be one of the most interesting and fun bo
oks to arrive recently. Certainly if they ever let me do some teaching as I pro
gress through my academic career I would certainly use it.
Jonathan Laidlow


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 08:07:00 1995
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From: Ruth Ballam <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Plymouth
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 12:46:14 GMT
Subject: Re: Open question for all: multiple readings--reply to Sean
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Priority: normal
X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Mac (v2.1.2)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>

Chill out ! 

If you keep jumping down peoples throats like that we *might* start wondering if 
you have some sort of a chip on your shoulder. So, Shean reads late at night 
and "makes the time" to do so. I don't see how that is flaunting anything. 

It might just be possible that someone could find your whining about having to 
survive on *only* one and a half salaries rather insulting. Do you think maybe 
*you* could be more sensitive  to the possibility that others might be worse off 
than you ?

On Thu, 11 May 1995  jdree <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>Ah, Sean,
>
>How young you must be...how independenly wealthy...how wonderful for you
>that you can read to the exclusion of real life considerations.
>
>As for "we SF-lovers" speak for yourself.  Try maintaining a household on
>one and one half salaries in a community that underpays its folks, and
>lays-off other folks.  Try finding time to read when you are responsible for
>that household and EVERYTHING that that word implys.  Try being a little
>sensitive to others who obviously do not have the luxuries that you are able
>to flaunt.
>
>
>In message Wed, 10 May 1995 14:14:22 -0400,
>  Sean Alan Wallace <[log in to unmask]>  writes:
>
>>
>> For the most part, most of us are students, researchers, and/or teachers...
>> As we are sf buffs, we MAKE THE TIME...I usually read late at night for
>> about 4 hours, finish a book, and then go to bed feeling really great if the
>> book was really good. I won't sacrifice my reading time to nothing,
>> nobody, not even my job - all that is done in the daytime. At night,
>> it's MY WORLD.
>>


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 08:48:00 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Open question for all: multiple readings



> 
> >Where do you find the time ???????????
> 
> For the most part, most of us are students, researchers, and/or teachers...
> As we are sf buffs, we MAKE THE TIME...I usually read late at night for
> about 4 hours, finish a book, and then go to bed feeling really great if the
> book was really good. I won't sacrifice my reading time to nothing,
> nobody, not even my job - all that is done in the daytime. At night,
> it's MY WORLD.

Well, therein lies the difference for some of us.  I was going to reply to the
original post, but this one will help make my point.  I suspect that the
original poster is somewhat like myself.  I have a family, and my family comes
first and foremost.  I work 10 hour days, and by the time I come home, eat
dinner, play with the kids, and help put them to bed, it's roughly 9 p.m.
Yeah, I can read then.  But getting up at 5 a.m. means I'm falling asleep in
the chair at about 9:30 p.m.

This is in no way a slam on you.  I read much more when I was a college student
as well.  And I certainly make an effort to stay up late to read, but it just
always doesn't work.  That's all.

> What motivates us? Consider this: outta of the thousands of books I've have
> read, I consider only a hundred really good to read over and over. Those
> 100 become the basis on how we grade/judge others. Those are the forerunners -
> they are our guides. I read them over and over because - hey, a great book
> is a great book. True, I know what's going to happen, but now I understand
> why, how, and the book moves smoother. As for reading time, it usually
> takes me about 2 hours for a 237 book, whereas a 300 page - maybe 4 hours
> tops. A larger book than that takes up to 2 days - no less, no more.

I'd agree with the great book concept, and I used to reread books often.  Now 
I have more books in the house than I will ever read in my lifetime (well, at
least before the kids are grown and out to college).  And I continue to buy
books.  Plus the fact that I'm just not that fast a reader.  I read faster than
most people I know and work with, but certainly not as fast as some of the
people here on the list.

> Maybe you don't have the same push/desire we have. Some people just READ
> the books as a side object. We sf-lovers read it through and through
> and try to understand every little tidbit in it. Some of us are driven
> to produce fanzines, others are driven to write sf as a result, and some
> are driven into fields related to sf. I don't know whether or not you have
> that burning desire. (did any of that make sense ;-)   - Sean -
> 

My only objection here is the implication that just because we don't read as
voraciously (for whatever reason that might be) as some, we are not sf-lovers.
Au contraire.  We love it.  We just have other priorities at this time in our
lives.

Joe Karpierz

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 09:19:29 1995
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Date:         Thu, 11 May 95 14:14:13 BST
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject:      Re:SF on television
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Thu, 4 May 1995 11:45:46 -0400

What I find surprising on the list are the attempts to classify tele-visual
SF. How would we classify X-Files?? I would call it SF (and bloody good too). T
The whole question of classification is tricky. there were threads about UFOs
in later episodes of Twin Peaks, but I would not call that SF. Speaking of Davi
David Lynch could someone give me some info on the extended version of Dune
which apparently appeared on American TV. In the UK all we have ever seen is
the three hour Movie version. Did the extend version add anything. Whenever I
watch it I have to explain to people what is going on. I feel that as a visual-
isation of the book it works magnificently, but the story? No way.
If we can discuss Dr Who then we can discuss Star Trek.
What about mainstream novels which use SF elements? Angela Carter uses fantasy
Alasdair gray uses fantasy/SF, Paul Theroux's O-Zone is a great SF romp.
Jonathan Laidlow, University of Birmingham


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 09:33:52 1995
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Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 08:31:35 -0600
From: John Jamison <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
Subject:  Re: Open question for all: multiple readings--Reply

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>Where do you find the time ???????????

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Quite frankly I don't.  There have been a few
times that I have reread a book.  Usually
because it has been so long since the first time
that I have forgotten a lot of the story.  Other
times recently is because my wife of 2 years
(anniversary SUnday May 30th, married at a
Convention but that is another story) read to
one another and I want to share a book with
here, i.e. "The Enormous Egg".

Otherewise there is just too LIFE in my life. 
Between a job from 8-5 and a second hand
book business.  Still and all I feel like I get
some of my SF "kick" from buying and selling
SF books.  
I want to add, though, that if you have the
time - enjoy.
John Jamison
THe Biker Librarian and wannabee bookseller


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 09:43:52 1995
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Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 09:43:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: BERARD SYLVIE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Open question for all: multiple readings
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Here is my contribution to this discussion.

Of course, for my Ph.D., I rererereread the books (novels, short stories) 
I work on. I figure that does not qualify as mere rereading. But the 
point is that with some books (for example, _Left hand of the darkness_) 
I STILL HAVE FUN!!!

Sylvie

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 10:13:33 1995
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From: BERARD SYLVIE <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: BERARD SYLVIE <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: BERARD SYLVIE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fantasy literature
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Tue, 9 May 1995, Marina Frants wrote:

> >If we're talking fantasy, does that mean fairy tales, too?  Because I could
> >talk fairy tales all day.  And while we're on the subject, check out Disney's
> >stage version of BEAUTY AND THE BEAST.  It's the most amazing tech show I've
> >ever seen, not the heart and humor of the movie, but wo!  Also, anybody ever
> >read the original Brother's Grimm?  
> Actually, the original wasn't Brothers Grimm.  I'm totally blanking on
> the name of the Frenchwoman who wrote it, but I have read it, and it's
> great.

_Beauty and the Beast_ has indeed French origins. The original title is
_La Belle et la bete_ and the author is Jeanne Marie Leprince de Beaumont
(1711-1780).

I hope this helps.

Ciao,
Sylvie Berard

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 10:38:45 1995
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Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 11:39:19 -0300 (ADT)
From: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Search for an old SF story
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I think you must mean Philip K. Dick's "The Preserving Machine" in his 
collection of the same title (published in New York, by Ace, 1969).

*****************************************************************
patricia monk (dr)                              [log in to unmask]
                   "just visiting this planet"
*****************************************************************


On Thu, 11 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> 
> Can anyone out there identify the following story and its author:  it is
> about someone who creates creatures tht personify great works of music.
> They apparently evolve for survival and when they are 'played back',
> the results, in a musical sense, are horrendous.
> 
> I just have a vague flicker of recall on this one...and need help.
> 
> Rick
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 10:49:39 1995
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Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 10:49:38 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: SF on TV, multiple readings

Thanks for the public help. It's the ONLY response I've received. :) I was
asking for clearance to use "sci-fi" for SQ DSV, Space Precinct and the other
one because, frankly, I think they're awful. I'd call Bab5 SF.

Speaking of same, I was once told that a short story of medium length
contained exactly enough material for a feature-length film. As TV series
consist of 48 minutes of film/video, this means we're dealing with (US
average) 26 short-short stories written by several dozen people with a stock
set of characters per season. I've tried writing stories that short. You can
get the plot in, you can sketch the characters, but that's about it. Imagine
having 20 people of varying talent churning out stories that are supposed to
be internally consistent BEFORE they're good. Probably why British SF has a
bit more strength to it, even Dr. Who. It may have a lot of writers, but Who
never had more than two per episode block. Red Dwarf has two writers who only
have to come up with six plots per season. Much kinder on the shows. (Don't
ask me about Blake's 7 or The Survivors. I have never been able to understand
why Terry Nation's work is so revered. His stuff always bores me.) Bab5 is
the only SF story on the air that has a predetermined beginning, middle and
end. JMS says it's drifted a bit from the start, but if anyone can show me a
writer that ALWAYS sticks to the original outline, I'll kiss his/her naked
ass and take him to dinner. :)

And do PLEASE tell about the bear! I want one!

*****

I read a story more than once because of the effect it has on me. If I get so
transported by a story that I feel like I was there and don't just wish I
was, I'll reread it. Spider Robinson's Callahan's works, the Chronicles of
Narnia, and (to bring in a third genre of storytelling) the original Elfquest
series of comic books by Richard and Wendy Pini did that for me.

On that topic, anyone know where I might find a certain bumper sticker? It's
blue on white, with the image of a lion and the caption, "Aslan is on the
move!" I couldn't find the car's owner to ask. My first attempt at locating
it will be Christian book stores. Based on the 3-D witness symbol on the same
car, I think it's a safe attempt. Nice to know the anti-Lewis slanders that
surfaced when that book came out aren't holding sway on some people. :) (ref:
Narnia was judged Satanic due to the talking animals by the same breed that
condemned rock and roll)

-Brenda

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 11:09:31 1995
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Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 16:11:20 +0200
To: [log in to unmask]@lkpsun.lkp.ifsab.se
Subject: Cheap Truth
X-Vms-To: SMTP%"[log in to unmask]@lkpsun"

> Having recently found all the back issues of _CHEAP TRUTH_ posted
> on the Net

Where? Pointers to an ftp site or equivalent that carries them would
be greatly appreciated.

/ Hans

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 11:36:44 1995
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Date:         Thu, 11 May 95 10:35:14 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Why reread books?
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 11 May 1995 07:50:43 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]>

Well, all of my reading has been tainted by my academic reading, and I
haven't hit 100 pages an hour in at least 15 years.  I'm lucky if I hit
50 pages an hour.  But I like reading slowly--it's sort of the difference
between marathon runners and folks who like to walk in gardens instead.
Reading slowly is calming, reading things I have read before and therefore
know the ending is calming.  And finding new things in old books feels like
discovering something new about an old friend--the pleasure is that we
can still explore the relationship.

Camille

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 11:39:56 1995
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Date:         Thu, 11 May 95 10:44:59 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: CHEAP TRUTH  Net?
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 11 May 1995 09:50:01 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>


Do you have a site location for CHEAP TRUTH?  I have been too busy lately
to do any exploring, and I deeply miss that sense of discovery!

Camille

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 12:23:56 1995
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Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 11:23:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Space Merchants
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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If your complaining students think SPACE MERCHANTS is boring, MAKE them
read a so-called "classic" like RETURN OF THE NATIVE (which our high 
school honours English teacher assigned wayy back in '78-9) or WAR AND 
PEACE (which I  :::dodging bricks!::: haven't read, but have heard 
student horror stories about).

Otherwise, give your li'l complainers a more easy assignment--like 
writing a 2,000-word paper on the history of world literature.  ;D


Gary
(who daily hears stories about whining students from my wife who's a 7th 
grade English/history/speech/math teacher!)


On Thu, 11 May 1995, Camille wrote:

> I have required SPACE MERCHANTS in my sf classes both in folklore and
> literature departments, but I don't know about marketing departments.
> I do know that my students don't like it.  They think it is boring and
> oversimplified and not really fiction anymore, so what's the point?
> 
> I find this attitude pretty annoying, but I can't figure out what to
> do to give my students a sense that the present doesn't exist in a
> vacuum.  Camille
> 
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 13:53:39 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thu, 11 May 95 17:30:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Great Lost Literature
X-Genie-Id: 2224489
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

Camille, my books are _born_ out-of-print.
 
Try interlibrary loan.
 
Your pal, George
 
PS: Mike, wish I'd known about that M. Kaye anthology.

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 14:11:06 1995
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Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 11:15:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: ESPANA <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi & Why hate Trek ? (fwd)
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Espana N. Sheriff				"It ain't so much"
[log in to unmask]					BILLY THE KID
http://www.Catch22.COM/~espana	      		

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 07:27:37 -0400
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi & Why hate Trek ?

On Thu, 11 May 1995, Camille wrote:

> You know, when we talk about the six inch skirts in original trek, we
> ought to remember that many of us young women also wore six inch skirts
> as our regular attire.  Remember the sixties?  Remember mini-skirts and
> go-go boots.  It really does look much stranger now, when we don't wear
> skirts that length.

:And we have to keep in mind the context of the time; to have women on a 
:combat ship AND in officer's positions was radical for the 1960's.  By 
:today's standards, it is lame and if the new ST shows continued this, 
:they would be sexist.  
:Colleen

	It should probably be pointed out that the female crewmembers 
originally did not wear mini-skirts and sport beehive hair-dos. If you 
recall the first two episodes (i think it was just the first two) 
uniforms where trousers for both sexes. In the first episode Number One 
was quite a competent character and I believe she had a pageboy type 
haircut as did the blonde woman in the second episode (I dont remember 
her name, but the navigation officer made the "Ice Queen" crack about 
her?) and both wore uniforms identical to the rest of the crew.
It was outside pressures that changed this attitude. Even so they did a 
fairly good job of having a mixed gender/race crew even when it was not 
the most advisable of courses.




From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 14:28:25 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Alternate media (hypertext)
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 11 May 95 11:21: 9 PDT
Message-Id: <9505111821.096A3C@martinw>
X-Mailer: SelectMAIL 1.2

Camille Bacon-Smith wrote:

|Gary--the problem with using an ftp hpertext program is that my
|publisher wants linear text for acid free paper.  We know acid-free
|ink on acid free paper lasts hundreds of years, and we don't have a life
|expectancy on electronic media yet.  But, it does seem that as writers of
|books of and about science fiction, we are being bypassed by the very
|technology about which we write.  

This info might be of interest to this thread:  I've got a CD-ROM 
(published by Clarinet, I believe) that is supposed to have a 
hypertext-annotated version of an SF story (Fire Upon the Deep, I 
think--don't everyone e-mail the listserver with the correct name, please) 
among other SF works.  I haven't actually checked out the hypertext because 
the hypertext version is for Windows only (editorial aside:  BOOOO!  
HSSSS!) and I use a Mac at home.  This annotation is probably not the most 
revolutionary use of hypertext (in fact, it probably has minimal impact on 
the storytelling structure), but it is the only SF work I'm aware of that 
uses hypertext.

Unfortunately, I don't think that this CD-ROM was a very successful 
commercial venture, and so authors may have to wait a while before 
publishers will be comfortable with this format.  And, of course, for 
anyone who's eager to publish hypertext fiction at any cost, there's the 
Web...

-Martin S. Won


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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Space Merchants
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 11 May 95 11:46:27 PDT
Message-Id: <9505111846.1B6A3C@martinw>
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Camille Bacon-Smith wrote:

|I have required SPACE MERCHANTS in my sf classes both in folklore and
|literature departments, but I don't know about marketing departments.
|I do know that my students don't like it.  They think it is boring and
|oversimplified and not really fiction anymore, so what's the point?

I think you mentioned this before, Camille, and I'm just as depressed 
hearing it this time.  If you can't get people to value the revolutionary 
and visionary works of the past, well then you're likely to get folk who, 
well, can't appreciate work like the original Star Trek.  Perhaps you can 
try putting it in the historical perspective of, "Where does popular 
culture get this distrust of commercialism/corporations?"  You can point to 
tons of SF movie examples (Aliens, Total Recall, RoboCop, etc.) and other 
popular non-SF works that exhibit this theme.

I guess that in retrospect this is an underlying problem in much of 
academia; there seems to be a lack of patience among today's readers for 
works that have historical significance.  People seem to want to know more 
about what's going on today, especially since the culture and society are 
changing so much more rapidly than in the past.

There's a thread we might pursue:  Anyone want to talk about the effect 
that rapid change has on our ability (and indeed, need) to examine and 
evaluate what has gone on before?

-Martin S. Won


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 14:59:46 1995
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Date: Thu, 11 May 95 14:57 EDT
From: [log in to unmask] (cb52)
Subject: Re: Re: New thread!!          Anyone read Vurt? 
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> 

 
Here's an excerpt of what I posted in rec.arts.sf.written a few
weeks after it was released in the US:


     VURT is an average attempt at mimicking the style of the
cyberpunk genre using a different set of reality obfuscating
techniques. Instead of Cyberspace we have the world of VURT,
which one enters via an hallucinogenic drug applied by sticking a
feather on the back of the tongue.  There really is very little
new or innovative in VURT, other than the drug.  After reading
it, I had a "been there, done that" reaction.  The prose style
and dark vision of the future come right out of the cyberpunk
genre (this prose style or dark world is not unique to cyberpunk
either).  The attempt at an existentialist obfuscation of reality
is also similar to that of cyberpunk and again there is nothing
particularly new or unique.  Finally, the story itself is not all
that compelling. Never does the reader really feel they know
Desdemonia, the lover, whose loss and attempted recovery fuel the
entire drama.

     Overall, a rather mediocre novel.



Since that time I've come to look back on VURT with even more disdain.




C. Douglas Baker
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
        [log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 15:07:48 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Satanic Narnia
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 11 May 95 12:00:39 PDT
Message-Id: <9505111900.276A3C@martinw>
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Brenda ([log in to unmask]) wrote:

|Nice to know the anti-Lewis slanders that surfaced when that book came out 
|aren't holding sway on some people. :) (ref: Narnia was judged Satanic due 
|to the talking animals by the same breed that condemned rock and roll)
|
|-Brenda

I'm intrigued by this!  From what I understand of C.S. Lewis, he considers 
himself a very "Christian" person and has written several books on the 
subject.  Do you (Brenda) or anyone else know more about this criticism of 
Narnia that you'd care to share?

-Martin S. Won



From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 15:10:05 1995
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Date: 	Thu, 11 May 1995 16:14:38 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re[2]: CHEAP TRUTH  Net?

     To find Cheap Truth zine, try (ignore < and > symbols): 
     
     <gopher://gopher.etext.org/11/Zines>
     
     or
     
     <http://www.etext.org/Zines/>
     
     and search through zine archive by NAME.
     
     Andy


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: CHEAP TRUTH  Net?
Author:  [log in to unmask] at nylanr01
Date:    5/11/95 2:52 PM


Do you have a site location for CHEAP TRUTH?  I have been too busy lately 
to do any exploring, and I deeply miss that sense of discovery!
     
Camille


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 15:26:36 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Why reread books?



> 
> Well, all of my reading has been tainted by my academic reading, and I
> haven't hit 100 pages an hour in at least 15 years.  I'm lucky if I hit
> 50 pages an hour.  But I like reading slowly--it's sort of the difference
> between marathon runners and folks who like to walk in gardens instead.
> Reading slowly is calming, reading things I have read before and therefore
> know the ending is calming.  And finding new things in old books feels like
> discovering something new about an old friend--the pleasure is that we
> can still explore the relationship.

I feel so much better now knowing someone out here reads as slow as I do.  I'm
in that 50 pages per hour range as well, and while it slows my consumption 
rate, I really do enjoy books much more that way.

Related to the slow reading rate is the trend of most novels today to be huge
tomes, on the order of 400-600 pages.  For example, most of David Brin's work,
and at least a couple of this year's Hugo nominees, _Mirror Dance_ and 
_Mother of Storms_.  It would be interesting to me to find out what the 
scholars (and everybody else) on the list, including our resident professionals,
have to say as to the cause of this trend, and whether they feel this is a
"good" or "bad" thing.

Thanks.

Joe Karpierz

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 15:58:52 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: Intertextuality/Plagiarism
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 11 May 95 12:51:43 PDT
Message-Id: <9505111951.2B6A3C@martinw>
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joan ([log in to unmask]) wrote:

|The question interests me, especially the Asimov example (paraphrased: 
|an author today writes about artifical intelligences discussing 
|Asimov's laws of robotics). My question would be, where do we draw the 
|line between reference and plagiarism? 

Let me throw another wrench in that work:  the "homage", often used in 
film when the artist (usually the director) lifts a sequence or manner 
of framing and cinematography from another film.  I would define these 
three terms as follows:  a reference is used when an understanding of 
the referencee will promote a greater understanding of the referencer. 
 Plagiarism occurs when party A tries to pass off party B's work/ideas 
as exclusively their own (usually with some gain in mind--if there's 
nothing to be gained either way, then why care?).  A homage is a 
duplication or mimicking of another artist's work with the expressed 
intent of acknowledging that artist's mastery of the subject.

In my mind, these three conditions overlap in many cases, thus making 
it difficult to draw clear lines between them.  In the case of 
plagiarism, I would suggest that some aspect of "gain" define whether 
or not plagiarism has occured; if the referencer gains something 
significant from hiding the fact that these ideas were not original, 
then I would consider that a case of plagiarism.

Perhaps a fourth case applies here as well:  parallel evolution.  Woe 
be to the individuals who find themselves in this situation...  

-Martin S. Won



From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 18:17:10 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Rereading
To: [log in to unmask]
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I suspect the subject of rereading SF books really gets at something
far deeper in terms of personal psychology:  some of us like to repeat
pleasurable experiences because we can predict they will pleasurable
again, we will become more accomplished at the task and thus perform it
more efficiently, and (usually as a consequence of the second point) we
will be able to concentrate on the deep and peripheral structures of the
task/text rather than central concepts/functions.  Good books, eating
the same dessert each time one goes to a restaurant (or, in fact, going
back to the same restaurant), sex (??!!), vacations, and the like
are all examples.

But others of us are not so drawn to repeating even pleasurable ex-
periences, whether it is the rereading of a book or repeating a
sumptuous meal, and I suspect there are two reasons for this:  1. We
live in an age of incredible variety and choice (and this is, for
most people, unlike any other historical age), and there is simply
no way we can sample a large portion of these choices if we repeat
ourselves (every rereading means essentially one fewer new books read);
2. This group is hooked on encountering unfamiliarity, being 
challenged by surprises, satiating curiousity through experiencing
the new.

I, for example, hardly ever reread a book unless I have to teach it
(a task which throws me directly into the first group); nor do I
usually return to the same restaurant or, if I do, I never order the
same dish again; we've got lots of mountains near Calgary and I've
climbed lots of them, rarely repeating an ascent, and feeling just
vaguely bored if, for some reason, I have to.

It is possible, of course, that we all mix and match between these
two selection styles depending on what the content of the choice/
decision is; but I suspect that overall most of us tend toward one
pole or the other.  It might be interesting to speculate on what 
early childhood experiences predisposed us in one direction or 
another -- did the repeaters have a less stable childhood than the
non-repeaters?  Any ideas?

Rick

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 18:30:30 1995
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Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 16:30:24 -0600 (MDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Hubris
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Just a couple of words on this thread (hopefully it hasn't died complete-
ly yet) before I take a 2-wk break for a travel holiday.

In addition to bragging (usually a sign of a falsely high estimation
of oneself and one's abilities -- i.e. Arachne and her weaving),
arrogant pride, and wanton violence, hubris is, as well, often 
the sin of the Overrreacher, who is the person who deliberately 
and consciously violates the boundary between the human and the
divine, who, in effect, aspires beyond the condition of the human
to the status of the spiritual.  Now, of course, this boundary is
often difficult to discern, but in tragic drama/fiction the potential
transgressor is always provided with warnings (which he/she usually
ignores because of the blinding allure of his/her possible rise in
The Great Chain of Being [in Milton this is part of what Satan
tempted Eve with -- gaining traits of "the gods" and thereby domiance
over Adam]).

This sort of prideful ambition that violated natural boundaries was
often perceived as visual analogy of flight:  those who could leave the
surface of the earth and aspire into the heavens were doomed by their
ambition and blindness since only angels could fly.  Thus, the impor-
tance of the myth of Icarus in all this (see, for example, the first
few lines of Marlowe's _Dr. Faustus_).  

The other challenge to God was the creation of life...and thus the
Frankenstein structure.

All tragedy that uses hubris as a motivating engine is essentially
quite conservative and cautionary.  What's interesting, of course,
in connecting this to SF is the fact that SF, both in film and text,
has retained the images of hubris -- what else is space travel but
the greatest soaring above the earth's surface?  What else are
robots and cyborgs and androids but the technological challenge to
God's divine authority for the creation of life? -- without the
cautionary subtext that "there are some things Man was not meant
to know".  Why and how this subtext has been eroded would require
a review of the projects of both the Renaissance and the later
Enlightenment, and I think I've gone on sufficiently enough at
this point.

Rick

From cstu  Fri May 12 07:34:34 1995
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From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Save this message!
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Current SF-LIT membership: 413

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From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 18:53:45 1995
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Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 18:53:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Marvin Kaye's Sherlock Anthology
To: [log in to unmask]
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George> I only heard of it by a stroke of luck; Terry McGarry mentioned
it in passing, late one night on GEnie. I called Marvin the next morning
and threatened to break his knees if he didn't invite me and let me
write in the style of either Edgar Rice Burroughs, Damon Runyon, or
Thorne Smith. ERB and Runyon had already been assigned, but I must
have sounded like I wasn't kidding, because he gave me Smith even tho
the book was officially closed. I'd look for it in 8-10 months.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 20:49:37 1995
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Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 20:49:36 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: information on a. mccaffrey

thank you!

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 22:37:53 1995
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Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 22:37:52 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Open question for all: multiple readings--reply to Julie

On 05-11 Julie posted to student Sean:

>Try maintaining a household on one and one half salaries in a >community
that underpays its folks and lays-off other folks.
>Try finding time to read when you are responsible for
>that household and EVERYTHING that that word implys.

For me that would mean leaving my job and, possibly, moving.  I think Sean
was offering a valid answer to a valid question it wasn't *much* of a flaunt,
nor is this.

How do I find the time?  I *always* have a book with me.  I keep books in my
car, my office, my bedstand, etc.  True it is a little odd, my friends and
associates comment when they see me without a book. I am currently reading
three books _Cyberweb_ at my office,
an issue of _Analog_ in my car (I drive my family around and pick them up a
lot so I read while I wait), I'm reading _Dolphins of Pern_ at home, and if I
can't sleep I re-read cyberpunk (Williams, Gibson, Vinge).  Perhaps if I paid
more attention the fist time, I wouldn't re-read.

--Paul

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 22:40:54 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Alternate media

Camille posted:

>
>Gary--the problem with using an ftp hpertext program is that my
>publisher wants linear text for acid free paper.
>

Isn't he REALLY worried about maintaing his income?  If your publisher had a
choice between publishing an ftp hpertext novel and publishing a 'dead tree'
novel wouldn't he choose the route he knows?  He knows what he needs to do to
publish a 'traditional novel' and he knows what HIS return will be.  Why
should he be concerned with new tech.

If he *wants* to publish you, pitch him a traditional AND a high tech novel
package deal.  How much power do writers have?

CD ROM would provide *some* duplication security.

--Paul


From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 23:03:38 1995
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Date:         Thu, 11 May 95 23:03:06 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: SF, Literature, Theory ("Intertextuality")
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 11 May 1995 13:24:01 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

Sigh-fi!  I want it!  I want  it!
       and GONE WITH THE WIND is cry-fi!

Camille


From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 23:16:57 1995
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Date:         Thu, 11 May 95 23:08:17 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Re:SF on television
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 11 May 1995 13:45:03 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

I think X-files is sf, although I have heard that, like Spielberg,
Carter doesn't think his product is sf.  On the other hand, an
episode like "Squeeze," which I saw alone and later had to sleep with
a light on, is pure horror in the best meaning of the word.

(In "Squeeze," a mutant who hybernated for 30 years in a paper mache
nest came out to rip out human livers and eat them for sustanance.
He had, among his mutations, the ability to elongate his body and
stretch it thin, so that he could fit through very narrow openings, like
up through the toilet, and in through heating ducts you might find in
an older house (not the kind you could push an elephant through on
many action shows).

Of course, the scary part, in good horror fashion, is only partly the
monster.  The real horror is that nobody believes Mulder, our hero.  He's
out there like some poor demented Cassandra, and nobody's listening.
Meanwhile the monster is crawling through the damsel's heating vent...

I wonder what Chris Carter, the inventor of X-Files, read as a boy?

Camille

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 23:32:32 1995
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From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Space Merchants
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 11 May 1995 15:05:14 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

Martin, I think we have two problems when we teach sf.  One, that students
tend to be so a-historical in their outlook that if it didn't happen today
they are not interested.  Two, that sf has a reputation of being both
future-oriented and not valuable.  The same student who will read MOBY
DICK will not put the patience into understanding the value of something
like SPACE MERCHANTS partly because the idea of something set in the
future that is already past confuses them, and partly because they can't
see putting the work into something they classify as trash in a course
they classify as a blow-off.   it only takes a day to wake them up that
in  MY classes, everybody works, but they can't really shake that old
prejudice about "trash."  And instead of reading the prose as the

satiric ad-speak that it is, they just assume that it has no literary
merit because it has no long sentences with big words in them.

Camille
(who is wondering why she is trying to teach sf again this summer!)

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 11 23:47:33 1995
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From: Ruth Ballam <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Plymouth
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 15:09:48 GMT
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi & Why hate Trek ?
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
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On Thu, 11 May 1995, Camille wrote:

> Remember the sixties?  Remember mini-skirts and go-go boots.  

No   :-)


-------------------------------------------
[log in to unmask]
Ruth Ballam,
Computing Service,
University of Plymouth,
-------------------------------------------

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 00:43:54 1995
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Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 00:43:53 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: The Big 3, 5 or Whatever

I had some additional thoughts so I'm going to revive this thread.

I suspect that the reason the "Big 3" became the "Big 3" is that they are the
writers who are read and whose names are recognized by people who otherwise
do not read much Science Fiction.  Yes, I have met people who have never
heard of Asimov, Heinlein, and Clarke, but I've met far more who've said
something like, "I've read a little bit of Science Fiction; _Foundation_ and
_Starship Troopers_."

I had a conversation like this with someone just a couple of evenings ago.
 My friend knew the names of Asimov, Heinlein, and Clarke and had read works
by each of them.  When I mentioned the name of Mike Resnick as being one of
my favorite writers he gave me a blank stare!

If my theory holds up then Niven and Pournelle are almost certainly _not_ in
the league of the "Big 3."  Names I would suggest are Ray Bradbury, Ursula K.
LeGuin and Harlan Ellison.

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 00:43:54 1995
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Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 00:43:53 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: The Big 3, 5 or Whatever

I had some additional thoughts so I'm going to revive this thread.

I suspect that the reason the "Big 3" became the "Big 3" is that they are the
writers who are read and whose names are recognized by people who otherwise
do not read much Science Fiction.  Yes, I have met people who have never
heard of Asimov, Heinlein, and Clarke, but I've met far more who've said
something like, "I've read a little bit of Science Fiction; _Foundation_ and
_Starship Troopers_."

I had a conversation like this with someone just a couple of evenings ago.
 My friend knew the names of Asimov, Heinlein, and Clarke and had read works
by each of them.  When I mentioned the name of Mike Resnick as being one of
my favorite writers he gave me a blank stare!

If my theory holds up then Niven and Pournelle are almost certainly _not_ in
the league of the "Big 3."  Names I would suggest are Ray Bradbury, Ursula K.
LeGuin and Harlan Ellison.
From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 02:49:12 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re:  Militarism a fact of life?

On May 3, Karen Warton writes:

>Militarism is a sad fact of life, *now*, but so was cowpox, until we >worked
to find a cure.

As much as I would like to see militarism vanish from the face of the earth,
I don't think this analogy holds up.  Cowpox was a biological disease.
 Militarism is not something that can be "cured."  It is a social problem
arising because people are people.

To the extent that I believe in original sin, I do not believe that we human
beings can overcome our own imperfections all on our own _a la_ _ Star Trek:
 The Next Generation_.

(Please note:  I am talking about militarism _not_ the military! :))  

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 05:08:40 1995
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Subject: Re: New thread!!          Anyone read Vurt?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 10:07:57 +0100 (BST)
From: Andy Butler <[log in to unmask]>
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> 
> NEW!! Has anyone read VURT by Jeff Noon, a Manchester based SF novel published
> last year which won the Arthur C.Clarke prize. the sequel POLLEN has just been
> published (although the publisher has since gone bust. I believe it is availabl
> e in the states. VURT is great, strange lo-tech cyberpunk. In my early days as
> a sad e-mailer I came across a very old 'Cyberpunk canon' article and I suggest
> ed VURT but the response was 'very punk, not very cyber' from a well known nove
> list who I unfortunately plagued with my message.

Vurt got republished by Pan in the UK, Pollen may yet go the same route.  
I gather that Ringpull have been / will be taken over by another 
company.  Noon also published a short story in GQ, which was funny but 
not as good as Vurt.  Pollen meanwhile is on my rapidly growing "Must 
read THIS week" list.  Sigh.

I've wrote a conference paper on Vurt and Snow Crash if anyone is 
interested in a copy.

This seems to be winging around parts of the internet:

Subject: RE: Jeff Noon interview

Interview with Jeff Noon
By Rich Swanson
2/11/95

Jeff Noon's first novel, VURT, was published in the UK last year and won the
Arthur C. Clarke award for best science fiction novel of the year. Crown
Publishing has just released the book here in the States and the mainstream
press has been quite good to this amazing piece of cyberpunk. Mr. Noon's
depiction of a drugged out, rocked out, futuristic Manchester even has the
American music press paying attention to this book. I spoke to Jeff Noon in
New London, CT where he stopped at Booksmith for the first stop on his
publicity tour.

Rich Swanson:  VURT is your first novel; how difficult was it making the
transition from playwright to novelist?

Jeff Noon: Very easy. When I started to write VURT, it was though the book
had been waiting for me to start is, to release the tale. With plays I was
constantly bound by the limitations of the stage; with VURT there were no
limits. This was scary at first - how on earth would I control this freedom?
But I just let it flow, allowing the weirdness to grow.

RS: Reviewers have been at a loss to describe VURT, just lumping it into the
cyberpunk or cyberfiction category. What's your personal soundbite on VURT?

JN: VURT is a transitionary story - growing out of the last seeds of
cyberpunk, waiting for it's next flowering. I don't know what to call it,
really. It's a fable more than anything. A fairy tale for the future. To me
it's a love story.

RS: In VURT you depict a physical dreamworld that people can access by taking
engineered designer VURT drugs. Give a brief take  on the plot and the
genesis of the story and characters.

JN: I wanted to write about Virtual Reality but extend it way beyond the
technology so that it becomes an organic process. A magical process. The
access points in the feathers came out in this desire. Add to that the
imagined ability to be able to records and playback dreams, and the seed of
VURT is sown. But I don't know what the VURT is; neither do the characters.
It's a fluid, mysterious medium: a drug, a game, a hobby, a religion, a tool,
a way to knowledge & an evolution of the spirit. The story grew out of the
excitement of writing, there were no plans made, no research undertaken. The
narrative and the characters grew like the VURT itself; flowing through and
around each other. My job was to control the flow.

RS: I see some Burroughs and Philip K. Dick influence on VURT. Who are the
authors (sci-fi or not) who've influenced you the most?

JN: I've never read Philip K. Dick. I loved Blade Runner, surely one of the
best movies of all time, and I'm aware of PKD's obsession with the shifting
boundaries of dream and reality, so that ties in. Burroughs I like in short
doses. I'm not really interested in promoting language over narrative drive.
To me, the story must be told; any fun and games I have along the way are
purely to add a poetic or ironic twist. The main man for me is J.G. Ballard.
He was the first writer to actually celebrate the future, and that was a big
release for me. And then Gibson, of course, again a celebration. But mainly
I'm influenced by music. I write to music, to let the rhythms take the words
on a trip. Modern Jazz, Ambient Dub trance, Funky Jams, Scratching Guitars
and Hip Hop Madness........

RS: You give a fantastic version of a druggy club rave in VURT. What's your
experience in music and the club scene in Manchester?

JN: Since the Sex Pistols hit Manchester in 1976, I've been heavily involved
in the music scene, whether it be playing, dancing or simply listening.
Manchester is a very musical city and it is not impossible not to be taken
over by it. I was aware that nobody was tapping into the city's beat in
words, so I thought, "Why not?". The words and the beat were waiting for me.

RS: The attention that the mainstream press is giving VURT has ranged from
ecstatic to confused. What do you think of all the attention? What were your
expectations when you first started writing it?

JN: I was asked to write the novel by a friend, who was setting up his own
publishing company, so I didn't really have any expectaions. He had no money
to promote the book. The success of VURT in the UK is totally based on word
of mouth. People pass it on to their friends. You can't buy that kind of
publicity. I'm enjoying the attention it's now getting, especially travelling
through the States. I'm meeting people at reading who are seriously involved
with the book and that is gratifying. 

RS: Do you have a sequel to VURT planned? 

JN: There are four books planned in the VURT sequence. The second one is
called POLLEN and will be out shortly in Britain, and next year in the
States. It has totally different characters than VURT, and a different feel.
I'm more interested in telling the story of the VURT itself (whatever it
might be) than following particular people through time. After POLLEN I'm
going to take a rest from the VURT for a while. I have lots of other kinds of
books to write.

RS: Had any great dreams lately?  

JN: I rarely remember my dreams. The last one that really struck me involoved
myself knowing that I was in a dream, whilst my companions thought it was
real. I had to try and persuade them that they weren't real, they were mere
creatures of my imagination. I finally managed to make them believe this and
they became very angry at me, because their whole meaning in life had been
undermined. They started to attack me. I woke up.


Cheers

Andy Butler

English Department
University of Hull
Hull
UK

[log in to unmask]

"We drift down time, clutching at straws.  But what good's a brick to a 
drowning man?"





From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 05:33:55 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: SF on TV, multiple readings
Date: Fri, 12 May 95 10:11:00 BST
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>Imagine
>having 20 people of varying talent churning out stories that are supposed 
to
>be internally consistent BEFORE they're good. Probably why British SF has a
>bit more strength to it, even Dr. Who. It may have a lot of writers, but 
Who
>never had more than two per episode block.

>(Don't
>ask me about Blake's 7 or The Survivors. I have never been able to 
understand
>why Terry Nation's work is so revered. His stuff always bores me.)


Just wanted to suggest that this is a curious pair of statements to find in 
the same message...

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 05:34:09 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Why reread books?
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Camille said:

>Well, all of my reading has been tainted by my academic reading, and I
>haven't hit 100 pages an hour in at least 15 years.  I'm lucky if I hit
>50 pages an hour.

I was wondering about all this, myself.  I /can/ hit 100 pages or so an hour 
if I really /have/ to get through something for reasonable familiarity but 
have not (as usual) left myself enough time to do it right.  (I remember 
first encountering The Tempest this way - not entirely satisfactory - and I 
challenge anyone to get through, say, Foucault's Pendulum at that speed and 
really know what's going on!)  Actually it also works if the book is just 
cheerful drivel, but that doesn't seem to be the main idea here - for a 
"good" book, (or an interestingly bad one - you know what I mean) I feel 
that this is to do it a disservice.  Studying something, though, and feeling 
that I've done it and myself justice, I find the rate often drops to 
something like 40 or 50 pages an hour.  I tend to find that I feel more 
confident about the book if I've actually read all the words and reflected 
on them...  The Tempest certainly benefited from this treatment when I had 
the time to do it.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 07:35:31 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: INTERZONE on Net?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 11:59:19 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Mr RW Farnell" at May 11, 95 09:49:03 am
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In the last mail Mr RW Farnell said:
> 
> 
> Having recently found all the back issues of _CHEAP TRUTH_ posted
>  on the Net, I was wondering if _INTERZONE_ issues might also be
> lurking out there somewhere, especially back issues. If so , could 
> someone please post me the site where I can find them.
> 
> If not, does anyone know where they might be available in Australia?
> 
As far as I know, INTERZONE is not available on the net: David Pringle
has only recently got onto email.

Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library
The University of Liverpool
051-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
> 
> 


From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 08:25:45 1995
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   Fri, 12 May 95 08:25:42 EDT
Date: Fri, 12 May 95 08:20:43 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Sci-Fi ??

So, a story written in the future dealing with interplanetary espionage
would be...      Spi-Fi ???

Or a tale of earth in the far future when we have run out of water would
be...            Dri-Fi ???

Or maybe even a story telling of a mad mathmatician set in the 22nd century
could be...      Pi-Fi ???


     Later,

Robert D. Bair
IBM Charlotte     RDBAIR at CLTVM1
CSP Test Engineering Support
[log in to unmask]
AR: WB3AHC, 1st Class FCC: P1-3-17298, Tripoli: #2253, NAR: #60163

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 09:19:05 1995
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From: Christina Noll <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject:  Re: Open question for all: multiple readings -Reply

Joe Karpierz writes:

> I work 10 hour days, and by the time I come home, eat dinner, play with the
>kids, and help put them to bed, it's roughly 9 p.m.
>Yeah, I can read then.  But getting up at 5 a.m. means I'm falling asleep in
>the chair at about 9:30 p.m.

>This is in no way a slam on you.  I read much more when I was a college
>student as well.  And I certainly make an effort to stay up late to read, but it
>just always doesn't work.  That's all.

Yes, that about sums it up.  Thank you, Joe. I personally get misty-eyed for
those college days when 4 hours of sleep were enough.

[log in to unmask]


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From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Rereading
Date: Fri, 12 May 95 14:17:00 UTC
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 ->
 - >It might be interesting to speculate on what
 ->early childhood experiences predisposed us in one direction or
 ->non-repeaters?  Any ideas?
 ->

So far as I can recall, I never re-read anything (for pleasure) before I was 
18+; could this be relevent.
I had a very quiet/uneventful childhood and often re-read books, and re-view 
films.
As for not having enough time - eternity is enough for me ;-|

markw

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 09:51:00 1995
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Date: 12 May 1995 09:51:09 EST
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From: "CHRISTINE T CALLAHAN" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: NARNIA AS SATANIC
To: [log in to unmask]
Comment: NARNIA AS SATANIC

 On  the subject of  Narnia being Satanic, I suspect the attitude 
here is the same as the that which condemns WIZARD OF  OZ because 
it has witches (and one  of htem is even good and beautiful�) and 
a  wizard,  and  lots  of  othr fantasies that  don't conform  to 
literal reality and a narrow view of Christianity. It seems to be 
a combination of total lack of imagination and  fear  of anything 
that wasn't taught in church, which is  truly sad--for the adults 
and even more  for  the children, who might have  the capacity to 
begin with but  who  are being stifled by  the fears and lack  of 
imagination of their elders. What's more, a  lot  of these adults 
want to constrict the minds of not only their own children but of 
everyone else's as well--look at  the lists  of banned books  and 
attempted bannings around the country over the last  few years. A 
lot  of those endangered books are fantasy, fairy tales, etc. And 
of course there's the  new  drive  to  ban Halloween for children 
because of  the witches and ghosts. The narrow-minded literalness 
of these people is  truly boggling. I suppose if anyone tried  to 
tell them  that Lewis, a devout Christian, was writing a parable, 
they wouldn't understand. The concept  of  using  an entertaining 
story to express a religious idea seems to be beyond them--Christ 
taught in parables, but that  was  Christ, in  the Bible. Period. 
Christ  used  story backgrounds understandable to  his listeners; 
C.S.Lewis used the fairy tale framework familiar to  his readers. 
But getting this across to the objectors seems to  be impossible. 
It  requires  a  mental flexibility they  lack  (the  concept  of 
historical context is also a problem here--but then understanding 
the idea of historical context also requires imagination, doesn't 
it? Literal-mindedness just can't deal with it) Sigh. 
     Anyway, Happy Friday� 
     Chris Callahan                                               

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 10:30:59 1995
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Date:         Fri, 12 May 95 10:17:17 EDT
From: Catherine Morgan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Re-reading books
To: [log in to unmask]

Oops! Before anyone "flames" me (not that that would happen here ;-) ) I've
again demonstrated my humanity by making a mistake; viz. Verne's book
is _20,000 Leagues..._, not 40,000. (I am reading Cherrth's _Forty Thousand in
Gehenna_, which led to my mind glitch.)

Speaking of Verne, has anybody heard anything about the publication in English
of the manuscript recently discovered by his family? I'd love to read it....

                                               --Cat.

Catherine Buck Morgan
College of Library & Information Science, USC
[log in to unmask]
Phone (803)951-3144

If I am not for myself, Who is for me?
If I am only for myself, Who am I?
If not now, When?

From cstu  Fri May 12 12:37:54 1995
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Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 12:37:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Fiction with science background (fwd)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

This was sent to me by Linda Sweeting; please be sure to send a copy of 
your information to Joan Miller ([log in to unmask]).  She is 
looking for fiction with a science background to it.

Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 08:01:36 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
To: Multiple recipients of list LM_NET <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Fiction with science background

Should have indicated in the subject line that this is elementary.  Does anyone
out there have recommendations of elementary fiction that have a science
background.  All I can think of is Arm of the Starfish.  (My excuse, I'm in a
high school library now!)  Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks!
                     Joan Miller ([log in to unmask])



From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 10:43:08 1995
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Date: Fri, 12 May 95 10:42:59 EDT
From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Why reread books?

Dave writes:

>I was wondering about all this, myself.  I /can/ hit 100 pages or so an hour 
>if I really /have/ to get through something for reasonable familiarity but 
>have not (as usual) left myself enough time to do it right.  (I remember 
>first encountering The Tempest this way - not entirely satisfactory - and I 
>challenge anyone to get through, say, Foucault's Pendulum at that speed and 
>really know what's going on!)  Actually it also works if the book is just 
>cheerful drivel, but that doesn't seem to be the main idea here - for a 
>"good" book, (or an interestingly bad one - you know what I mean) I feel 
>that this is to do it a disservice.  Studying something, though, and feeling 
>that I've done it and myself justice, I find the rate often drops to 
>something like 40 or 50 pages an hour.  I tend to find that I feel more 
>confident about the book if I've actually read all the words and reflected 
>on them...  The Tempest certainly benefited from this treatment when I had 
>the time to do it.

There seems be a musunderstanding about fast readers.  I can only speak for
myself of couse, but I don't read fast because I _try_ to read fast, or
because I _have_ to read fast.  That's just how I read.  I don't skim.  I
do read every word.  I savor the language and try to understand all the
ideas.  But I still read about 100 pages an hour.  Even _Foucault's Pendulum_

Marina Frants
[log in to unmask]



From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 10:45:30 1995
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Date:         Fri, 12 May 95 10:31:54 EDT
From: Catherine Morgan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      re: David Wingrove and Ken Kato
To: [log in to unmask]

Wingrove's epic _Chung Kuo_ series is very complicated, but it does seem to
be capable of integrating Confucian/Toaism into an sf story with a great deal
of skill. However, I agree about the torture/rape/etc. stuff-- we would not
lose anything if that were missing from the text, or if it were less explicit.

Another author who has managed to transplant a tradition across the universe is
Ken Kato in his _Yamato_ and _Yamato II_ series. Again, it tends to be a bit
graphic, but the Japanese/Chinese conflict is well represented.

Nonetheless, both are good reads-- and even though I'm a working on my library
and info. sci. degree, and generally get bent all out of shape over censorship-
- I won't give these to my kids to read for some time yet...

                                --Cat.

Catherine Buck Morgan
College of Library & Information Science, USC
[log in to unmask]
Phone (803)951-3144

If I am not for myself, Who is for me?
If I am only for myself, Who am I?
If not now, When?

Catherine Buck Morgan
College of Library & Information Science, USC
[log in to unmask]
Phone (803)951-3144

If I am not for myself, Who is for me?
If I am only for myself, Who am I?
If not now, When?

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 11:24:45 1995
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From: [log in to unmask] (Dan Trefethen)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: To Camille, re: Effinger
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 08:10:49 -0700 (PDT)
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Camille, I understand you're looking for Effinger's funny stories, and he 
suggested you try interlibrary loan.  With all respect to George, I don't 
think you'll have a lot of luck with that.  The stories are published all 
over the place, and it's a fair amount of sleuthing just to pin down the 
citations.

I have an alternative for you.  I own a copy of "The Old Funny Stuff", a 
compilation of George's humor that was published by Pulphouse Publishing 
in 1989.  This is such a small-press publication that maybe even *George* 
doesn't have a clean copy.  It includes such stories as "Mars Needs 
Beatniks", "White Hats" and "The Aliens Who Knew, I Mean, Everything".

If you e-mail me directly, we can make arrangements for a loan.  I don't 
normally loan books to people I don't know, but I think I can make an 
exception in this case (in the interests of academic scholarship, of course).

--Dan Trefethen
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 11:37:57 1995
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Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 11:37:42 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Militarism a fact of life?

In a message dated 95-05-12 09:49:34 EDT, RSMITH2678  wrote:

>To the extent that I believe in original sin, I do not believe that
>we human beings can overcome our own imperfections all on our own _a la_ _
>Star Trek: The Next Generation_.

I agree that humans as a species may never be able to reach the level
portrayed in the many different incarnations of TREK, however you have to
realize that there were  numerous outside forces influencing human cultural
and social
evolution in the TREK Universe.  In TREK there was the Earth/Romulan war
which
help to unite the many cultures on the planet for the benefit of all, also
contact with
Vulcans and other species would help to shape our world.  In essence we would
no longer be the masters of our own desitiny, but just a member of a larger
crew working towards a common destiny.

As it is now our ship is taking on water and no one brought in buckets.

Steve


From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 11:41:36 1995
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Fri, 12 May 95 11:41 EDT
From: [log in to unmask] (cb52)
Subject: Re: Re:  Militarism a fact of life? 
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> 

>On May 3, Karen Warton writes:
>
>>Militarism is a sad fact of life, *now*, but so was cowpox, until we >worked
>to find a cure.
>
>As much as I would like to see militarism vanish from the face of the earth,
>I don't think this analogy holds up.  Cowpox was a biological disease.
> Militarism is not something that can be "cured."  It is a social problem
>arising because people are people.
>
>To the extent that I believe in original sin, I do not believe that we human
>beings can overcome our own imperfections all on our own _a la_ _ Star Trek:
> The Next Generation_.
>
>(Please note:  I am talking about militarism _not_ the military! :))  
>


I completely agree with you. For a quaint little story on this topic look
at J.G. Ballard's "War Fever" in his short story collection also entitled
WAR FEVER. A neat little story.
 



C. Douglas Baker
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
        [log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 12:12:40 1995
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Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 02:02:18 +1000 (EST)
From: Mr RW Farnell <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: CHEAP TRUTH SITE
To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I found the issues of _CHEAP TRUTH_ via <Lynx> so please excuse
 the less than direct reference to the site.
Under <Lynx> they can be found in < Yanoff's Internet Services List>
( Try < [log in to unmask]> )
IN: 'Literature/Books/Languages'
  'Speculative Fiction Clearing House'
 'www. Zines'
Then select  _ CHEAP TRUTH-
All the Issues are listed seperately.

Please excuse the less than direct location!
Good Luck. 

Cheers
Ross Farnell
Monash Uni
Melbourne Australia


From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 12:30:09 1995
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Date:         Fri, 12 May 95 12:15:41 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Re: New thread!!          Anyone read Vurt?
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 12 May 1995 06:54:21 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

Hmmmm.  I just read a book called CYBERIA, in which the author, Douglas
Rushkoff, draws connections between computers and certain drugs, like
LSD and DMT, to create a space he calls CYBERIA, connecting it as part of
the continuum from the sixties drug culture to the present house culture
and cyberpunk to create a new subculture of self-creating consensual
realities that constitute this space.  So it sounds like VURT is in this
vein, which includes the MONDO 2000 crowd and deadheads and Timothy Leary.

I'm not sure I get it, but apparently there is a space where VURT does fit
into cyberspace.   Camille

From @INDST.INDSTATE.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 12:30:19 1995
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From: "EJUSERS" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Fri, 12 May 1995 11:30:26 EST
Subject:       Re: New Verne book.
Priority: normal
X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>

There's an article on the "new" Verne book in the March 1995 SCIENCE-
FICTION STUDIES. --R.D. Mullen <[log in to unmask]>

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 12:51:29 1995
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Date:         Fri, 12 May 95 12:25:04 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Alternate media
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 12 May 1995 08:07:17 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]>

Paul, to answer your most important question--writers like me have no
power at all.  Well, for my non-fiction, my editor has a standing offer
open for anything I want to do, basically.  We talk, pass ideas back and
forth, and then I go and do something completely different.  She trusts
me because she knows I do conscienscious work in areas that the academic
world finds moderately interesting, so I sell reasonably well in an
academic context.  But how much power does my editor have?  Enough to
give me relative carte blanche, but production is outside her bailiwick.
And since my power is directly dependent upon good reviews and good sales,
it depends upon production making the best decisions about maximizing sales--
right now, that is paper.  As for novels, I'm lucky that anyone buys them

at all.  In sf and fantasy, so many fans want to be pros that they don't
have to pay much and can pick and choose between the unknowns with impunity.
Once you become a Resnick, however, you have a lot more power, but it still
rises or falls on your numbers.  We are all, alas, prisoners of commerce!

Camille

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 12:56:01 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Use of SF vs. Sci-Fi & Why hate Trek ?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 16:02:21 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Ruth Ballam" at May 12, 95 08:30:38 am
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In the last mail Ruth Ballam said:
> 
> On Thu, 11 May 1995, Camille wrote:
> 
> > Remember the sixties?  Remember mini-skirts and go-go boots.  
> 
> No   :-)
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------
> [log in to unmask]
> Ruth Ballam,
> Computing Service,
> University of Plymouth,
> -------------------------------------------
> 
How does the catch-phrase go: if you were there, you certainly WON'T
remember it.:-)

Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library
The University of Liverpool
051-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]


From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 12:59:23 1995
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Date:         Fri, 12 May 95 12:41:01 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: New thread!!          Anyone read Vurt?
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 12 May 1995 09:48:26 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

Andy--Thanks for posting your interview about VURT--is that the paper, or
part of the material you used to compose the paper?

Camille

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 13:18:12 1995
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Date:         Fri, 12 May 95 12:59:30 EDT
From: Camille <@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      re: David Wingrove and Ken Kato
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 12 May 1995 12:53:34 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

Hmmm.  How does Wingrove combine Confucian and Taoist philosophy?  They
are sort of contradictory, aren't they?

Camille

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 13:30:05 1995
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Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 13:29:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Militarism a fact of life?  And lack of imagination in Star Trek.
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Fri, 12 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> >Militarism is a sad fact of life, *now*, but so was cowpox, until we >worked
> >to find a cure.
> 
> As much as I would like to see militarism vanish from the face of the earth,
> I don't think this analogy holds up.  Cowpox was a biological disease.
>  Militarism is not something that can be "cured."  It is a social problem
> arising because people are people.
> 
> To the extent that I believe in original sin, I do not believe that we human
> beings can overcome our own imperfections all on our own _a la_ _ Star Trek:
> The Next Generation_.

OK then, if you want a better analogy, we managed to overcome cannibalism! 

And after that, we managed to overcome the practice of widespread religious 
human sacrifice.

>From that viewpoint it seems rather easy to overcome the need to go to 
war against other nations, since eating and praying seem to be more basic 
urges (and more difficult to rationalize) than dying for a flag.

Which is why the future society in Star trek, the next generation seemed 
so flat and implausible.  Seems much easier to overcome a social ill like 
militarism than profound human urges like ambition, jealousy and cupidity.

And, of course, the scripts in the Next Generation never managed to 
illustrate this, or even attempted to explore this disappearance of such 
basic human drives.  On the other hand, the original series sometimes 
explored the slow disappearance of such urges in human-like alien 
societies (see the aliens of Rigel 4 in "Wolf in the fold", which had 
nearly done away with jealousy) because at the time Roddenberry was not 
yet ossified and he was being prodded into creativity by external influences.

Of course, the disapearance of militarism is not a sure thing, and even 
if it does disappear, it might be for something worse.

Post-nuclear holocaust dystopias where there is no militarism (everything 
military has been blown away or disbanded) but a reversion to cannibalism 
by the survivors are too numerous to count.

Au revoir!

DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask] 


From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 13:56:43 1995
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Date: 12 May 1995 13:56:13 EST
Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
From: "SINYA B SCHAEFFER" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: SF-LOVERS LIST
To: [log in to unmask]
Comment: SF-LOVERS LIST

SF-LOVERS: 
     Does anyone know  the status  of  the SF-LOVERS list?   I haven't 
gotten a post from it for a very long time.  Thanks. 
                                Sinya 

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 14:16:13 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Ref: SF-LOVERS list

append from [log in to unmask]

It is up and running fine.  I just received posts from it last night.
A bunch of TV stuff; SQ, VR5, ST:V, etc...

     Later,

Robert D. Bair
IBM Charlotte     RDBAIR at CLTVM1
CSP Test Engineering Support
[log in to unmask]
AR: WB3AHC, 1st Class FCC: P1-3-17298, Tripoli: #2253, NAR: #60163

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 14:22:30 1995
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	id AA21447; Fri, 12 May 95 13:21:33 CDT
Date: Fri, 12 May 95 13:21:33 CDT
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask] (Jessica Frasca)
To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Engines of the Night
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]



My thanks to all who posted replys to this thread.  I had pretty
much heard only one side of the story--now I have a better idea
of the realities, both positive and negative.  Hopefully, 
assuming any success on my part in the field, I will draw more
"good" vibes than "bad." ;-)

I feel much better now! 8-D

--
--Jessica J. Frasca
[log in to unmask]

"The wai-aiting is the hardest part...."  --Tom Petty (1981)

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 14:27:29 1995
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Date:         Fri, 12 May 95  14:30:16 EDT
From: Bob Roehm <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      SF-LOVERS LIST
In-Reply-To:  note of 05/12/95 14:09
To: "SF & Fantasy Discussion Forum" <[log in to unmask]>


The posts are coming, though sporadically. A day or two (or more) will go by,
then several digests will come all at once. I understand the list has had
numerous software and hardware problems the last year, but it is definitely
still active.
Bob

Robert A. Roehm
Asst., Office of Collection Mgmt., Ekstrom Library
Univ of Louisville, Louisville KY 40292
[log in to unmask] - (502)852-8715

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 14:38:19 1995
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Date: Fri, 12 May 95 13:38:05 CDT
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask] (Jessica Frasca)
To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
Subject: Out-of-print books
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]



A thought on the problem of finding out-of-print books and 
stories:

Assuming a few points:
  1. The rights to the work have reverted to the author or 
     his/her estate.
  2. The author has access to a computer, modem, and desktop
     publishing software.
  3. The author has sufficient funds to maintain an account
     on a bulletin board service.

Couldn't the author set up their own World Wide Web page, and
offer to print up, for a reasonable fee including a modest
profit, copies of their otherwise unavailable works?  (As a
bonus, living authors could offer to autograph the copies.)

Interested readers, collectors, and teachers would then have
perfectly legal access to these works, minimizing the quandry
of whether or not to photocopy.  More importantly, the works
in question would remain in circulation, rather than just
gathering dust on a used-bookstore shelf.

More famous authors _might_ be able to afford a staff to 
handle these orders.  Less famous authors would be giving
themselves a little PR, and making an extra $1000, perhaps,
a year, which never hurts.

Any thoughts as to the feasability of this idea, either now
or in the not-too-distant cyberfuture?

--
--Jessica J. Frasca
[log in to unmask]

"The wai-aiting is the hardest part...."  --Tom Petty (1981)

From cstu  Fri May 12 14:50:29 1995
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Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 14:50:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: SF-LIT delayed, not down
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

This weekend I will be leaving town until Sunday evening and SF-Lit's  
co-owner, Eric Johnson is out of the country (I told you this would 
happen, Eric).  Soooooo, SF-LIT will not have any messages forwarded from 
now until when I get back.  Please do not be discouraged; all the 
messages will await my return (sitting silently in my mailbox, just 
waiting to pounce! :-) ).  Any message you send will be dealt with as 
soon as I return.  Have a great weekend!

Colleen 
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]



From cstu  Sun May 14 16:18:17 1995
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Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 16:18:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Robert Horley: Extending copyright period (fwd)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 11:24:36 +0700 (TST)
From: Robert Horley <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Extending copyright period=20



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Hi Colleen:

  I thought this posting from Project Gutenberg might be of
  interest to the members of this list as several members are
  professional writers, and Michael Hart of Project Gutenberg
  has given permission for me to forward it to the sf-lit
  list.
 =20
  Of course the final decision of whether this goes out to the
  list rests with you as the list facilitator, but I think it is
  relevant for the group since we have been recently
  discussing copyright laws and the unavailability of out of
  print books.
 =20
  If anyone has any comments, please address them to me
  through the list if you think other members would be
  interested.  Otherwise, please direct them to me personally,
  or to Michael hart at Project Gutenberg
  ([log in to unmask])

  Robert Horley
  Phanat Nikhom, Chonburi, Thailand
 =20
  The document follows.
> From [log in to unmask] May  4 20:59:45 1995
> Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 09:46:57 CDT
> From: "Michael S. Hart" <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply to: Project Gutenberg Email List
>      <[log in to unmask]>
> To: Multiple recipients of list GUTNBERG
>      <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Free Winnie! [Your Comments]
>=20
> (c)1995  Free Winnie! [TM]
>=20
> Here is a trial balloon we are working on to send out to the general Net.
>=20
> We have already received a reply letter from Vice President Al Gore, so a
> letter from you to our goverment officials listed below WILL be effective=
.
>=20
> Suggestions and comments are STRONGLY encouraged.  Thanks,  Michael
>=20
> [I think there is too much good information here to edit it down further,
> so I hope you will take the time to read the following 10 page pamphlet.]
>=20
>=20
> This is the Third Edition and contains many additional items from a
> wide range of sources, including:
>=20
> 1*  The U.S. Constitution
> 2*  The Federalist Papers
> 3.  The U.S. Supreme Court
> 4.  A Tax On All Internet Information [The Tobin Tax]
> 5.  What Happens When Your Library Can't Get The Information You Ask For
>     Because It Went Out of Print In Only Six Years But Is Copyrighted An
>     Additional 100 Years?
> 6.  Copyright Becomes "Permanent" When the Only People Living After Your
>     Copyright Expires Are Legal Fictions [Known as "Corporations"
> 7.  If This Is The "Information Age,"--Then Why Are They Locking It Up??
> 8.  Record Book, Music and Movie Sales Were Posted in 1994
>     . . .So Why Does The Publishing Industry Need Each One
>     Of You To Give Up Your Rights to 1,000,000 Of These?
> 9.* Reply Letters From Vice President Gore
>=20
> * indicates the work referred to is available as an Etext
>   from Project Gutenberg and/or other sources or will be.
>=20
>=20
> Suggestions and comments are STRONGLY encouraged.  Thanks,  Michael
>=20
> *** Here Is The Revised Version of The Original, Based On A
> *** Variety of Suggestions We Received-The 9 Major Comments
> *** We Received Are Also =FCIncluded. . .
>=20
> #9. . .Those who sent in letters to the people listed below
> when the first edition of this note appeared received reply
> letters last week, reply letters that mentioned the subject
> by name, but did not mention which way anyone was voting on
> the subject.  Please make your letters clear enough that it
> is obvious you want them to take a stand to defend a public
> right to those 1 million copyrighted items that will be out
> of the public domain if this law is passed.
>=20
> ***
>=20
> Free Winnie!
>=20
> We are being asked by our government, at the request of some
> publishers of books, music and movies, TO GIVE UP ALL RIGHTS
> TO A MILLION BOOKS, MUSICAL SELECTIONS OR MOVIES--copyrights
> are supposed to protect the rights of the entire public, not
> just the copyright holders.
>=20
> 19 years ago, in 1976, copyrights were extended 19 years and
> Winnie-the-Pooh's copyright got extended from 1982 to 2001--
> just six years before that term was set to expire.
>=20
> 19 years later, in 1995, another copyright extender is being
> proposed, this time to extend the Winnie-the-Pooh copyrights
> for another 20 years, until 2021, via House Resolution #989.
> and Senate Bill #483.
>=20
> If this continues no more material is likely to enter public
> domain status, since the copyrights will never expire, and a
> Public Internet Library will never be possible.
>=20
> If we are to pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps, as the
> people in high places keep admonishing us to do, then we had
> better at least have some bootstraps to pull ourselves up by
> or we are not going to get very far.  Just as your computers
> pull themselves up by their bootstraps when turned on, [boot
> is an abbreviation of bootstrap], so too do people need this
> selfsame process to become aware of their surroundings, then
> empowered to handle those surroundings.
>=20
> Language is quite possibly the greatest invention of all our
> history, and speaking, listening, reading and writing are an
> eloquent requirement for much of human interaction.
>=20
> If we copyright 99% of all the things written in a language,
> people will have a difficult time in mastering that language
> as witnessed by the drop to the 53% US Adult Literacy Report
> figures released just last year.
>=20
> Most of us grew up with Winnie-the-Pooh, as did our parents,
> and our grandparents, as Winnie was read to children in 1926
> and then to their children [including me] a generation later
> and then a generation after that to even another generation.
> It has been nearly 70 years since Winnie-the-Pooh was put in
> bookstores for the first time, and the author only lived for
> 40 years after publication, and thus has not been able to do
> anything in the way of receiving royalties for 30 years.
>=20
> If the proposed "life plus 70 years" copyrights are allowed,
> then we would never see public domain copies of Winnie for a
> period of 110 years.
>=20
> Nevertheless, even with sales to 60 million this would leave
> 99% of the population without a copy, even presuming all the
> copies of Winnie-the-Pooh were still in circulation.
>=20
> Even if we presumed sales to 600 million, 90% of the persons
> in the world would not have a copy.
>=20
> Sales of 60 to 600 million are subject to big reality check.
> Most books on the best-seller lists have trouble selling one
> million copies. . .only 17 books sold a million copies, from
> last year's sales figures [1994], yet that was a record year
> for million sellers.
>=20
> We have to understand that even best-sellers rarely reach 1%
> of the world's population, or even a country's population.
>=20
> It would take sales of two and half million for 1% of the US
> to have a copy of something, and this just doesn't happen in
> any cases but a literal handful.
>=20
> Sales of even 1 million are enough to guarantee a place on a
> best-seller list's top contenders, but those sales reached a
> fraction of 1% of the world's population while well over 99%
> of the people in the world have to wait for the materials to
> enter the public domain before they are entitled to a copy--
> are we going to now insure they have to wait a lifetime from
> publication to public domain???
>=20
> Obviously, with this kind of a LIMITED DISTRIBUTION NETWORK,
> the vast majority of the people on Earth will never see this
> classic of children's literature, Winnie-the-Pooh, though it
> has been scheduled to be in the public domain several times.
>=20
> The truth is that, for the first time, we have a chance at a
> new UNLIMITED DISTRIBUTION NETWORK. . .and we must not let a
> system of ethics that evolved when there was never enough to
> go around decide that we will FORCE there to never be enough
> to go around simply because that is what we are used to.
>=20
> WE CAN NOW HAVE ENOUGH BOOKS FOR EVERYONE FOR THE FIRST TIME
> . . .the first time in all history that there will be enough
> of something for everyone, other than air.
>=20
> We had battles over water rights, land rights, light rights,
> [when high rises threatened to block the light], but we have
> started a new battle in the Information Age as a reaction to
> the ease of getting information.
>=20
>=20
> When Project Gutenberg was founded, in 1971, Winnie-the-Pooh
> was scheduled to reach public ownership in 1982, 56 years of
> copyright having originally been set to expire at that date;
> what better book to introduce all the children in this world
> to reading.
>=20
> However, six years before that expiration date to set Winnie
> free from copyright restrictions, that law was revoked to be
> replaced with an expiration date of 2001.
>=20
> Now that once again six years remains before these copyrights
> are due to expire, another movement is underway to keep these
> copyrights from expiring by revoking that law put in place 19
> years ago and replacing it with another 20 years' copyright.
>=20
> If this process continues, everything will remain under these
> copyright laws, and nothing will enter the public domain ever
> again. . .
>=20
> If you would prefer to continue to have a flow of information
> into the public domain please let the government know because
> there are two bills in Congress which are scheduled to extend
> copyright for another 20 years much as they were extended for
> 19 years, 19 years ago in 1976. . .
>=20
> These bills are House Resolution 989 & Senate Bill 483.
>=20
> Here are names and addresses of a few top government people a
> letter, phone call, fax or email on the subject might be sent
> to with some hope of continuing the public domain process.
>=20
> A more complete list is available in file /etext95/uscon95b--
> under the Project Gutenberg /pub/etext directories in most of
> the sites that carry Project Gutenberg materials.  If needed,
> you may download this file from mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu.
>=20
> Communications should be short and to the point:  referencing
> Senate Bill 483 and House Resolution 989, abbreviations are:
> S. 483 and H.R. 989
>=20
> If you are FOR Public Domain you are AGAINST these two bills.
> If you are AGAINST Public Domain you are FOR these two bills.
>=20
> If you are FOR extended copyrights say you are FOR the bills.
> If you are AGAINST extended copyrights, you are AGAINST them.
>=20
> From what we have been told:
>=20
> 1.  Letterhead letters are the most powerful.
> 2.  Plain paper letters are the next most powerful.
> 3.  Faxes and Telegrams are the next most powerful.
> 4.  Phone calls are the next most powerful.
> 5.  Email, where they have it, seems to be effective.
> 6.  We should also pursue a written petition.
>=20
> If you know only the name of your Representative or Senator--
> but don't want to download a file to get the address send to:
>=20
> Representative or Senator [fill in name] of [fill in state]--
> House Office Buildings or Senate Office Buildings [pick one]
> Washington, DC, 20515
>=20
>=20
> Bill Clinton
> President of the United States
> 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
> Washington, DC 20500
> [log in to unmask]
> (202) 456-1414 Pres Clinton's office
> press 1 then 2
> (202) 456-1111 White House comment line
>=20
>=20
> Al Gore
> Vice-President of the United States
> 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
> Washington, DC 20500
> [log in to unmask]
> (202) 456-2326
> (202) 456-7125
>=20
> House Democrat Leadership:  [log in to unmask]
>=20
> Senator Orrin Hatch, Chairman
> Committee on the Judiciary
> Dirksen Senate Office Building, Room 224
> Washington, DC  20510-6275
> phone - 202-224-5225
> fax - 202-224-9102
>=20
> Henry Hyde, Chairman
> Committee on the Judiciary
> Rayburn House Office Building, Room 2138
> Washington, DC  20515-6216
> phone - 202-225-3951
> fax - 202-225-7682
>=20
> Representative Newt Gingrich
> Rayburn House Office Building, Room 2428
> Washington, DC  20515
> phone - 202-225-4501
> fax - 202-225-4656
> [log in to unmask]
>=20
> Representative Richard A. Gephardt
> Longworth House Office Building
> Washington, DC  20515
> phone 202-225-2671
> fax 202-225-7452
>=20
> Senator Tom Daschle
> 509 Hart Senate Office Building
> Washington, DC  20515
> 202-224-2321
> 202-224-2047
> [log in to unmask]
> ftp://ftp.senate.gov/member/sd/daschle/general/daschle.html
>=20
> Senator Bob Dole
> 141 Hart Senate Office Building
> Washington, DC  20515
> 202-224-6521
> 202-228-4569
>=20
> Here are several suggestions of ideas people think we
> should have included in our postings of "Free Winnie."
>=20
> They include:
>=20
> 1*  The U.S. Constitution
>=20
> 2*  The Federalist Papers
>=20
> 3.  The U.S. Supreme Court
>=20
> 4.  A Tax On All Internet Information
>=20
> 5.  What Happens When Your Library Can't Get The Information You Ask For
>     Because It Went Out of Print In Only Six Years But Is Copyrighted An
>     Additional 100 Years?
>=20
> 6.  Copyright Becomes "Permanent" When the Only People Living After Your
>     Copyright Expires Are Legal Fictions [Known as "Corporations"
>=20
> 7.  If This Is The "Information Age,"--Then Why Are They Locking It Up??
>=20
> 8.  Record Book, Music and Movie Sales Were Posted in 1994
>     . . .So Why Does The Publishing Industry Need Each One
>     Of You To Give Up Your Rights to 1,000,000 Of These?
>=20
> 9.  See Above, re: Reply Letters From Vice President Gore
>=20
> * indicates the work referred to is available as an Etext
>   from Project Gutenberg and/or other sources.
>=20
>=20
> 1*  The U.S. Constitution
>=20
> "It is worth mentioning that the Constitution says
> copyright must be temporary.  This policy of
> extending copyright by 20 more years,
> every 20 years, is a means of achieving
> perpetual copyright while pretending it is not.
> That is trampling the Constitution, and it is deceitful."
>=20
> Richard M. Stallman  [GNU and Free Software Foundation]
>=20
>=20
> 2*  The Federalist Papers [All is Quotation]
>=20
> THE FOURTH class comprises the following miscellaneous powers:
> 1. A power ``to promote the progress of science and useful arts,
> by securing, for a limited time, to authors and inventors,
> the exclusive right to their respective writings
> and discoveries.''
>=20
> The utility of this power will scarcely be questioned.
> The copyright of authors has been solemnly adjudged, in Great
> Britain, to be a right of common law. The right to useful
> inventions seems with equal reason to belong to the inventors.
> The public good fully coincides in both cases with the claims
> of individuals. The States cannot separately make effectual
> provisions for either of the cases, and most of them have
> anticipated the decision of this point, by laws passed at the
> instance of Congress.
>=20
>=20
> 3.  The U.S. Supreme Court
>=20
> _Stewart v. Abend_, a landmark 1989 copyright case, the Supreme
> Court noted that copyright serves a higher purpose than just
> providing income to authors and creators:
>=20
>    Although dissemination of creative works is a goal
>    of the Copyright Act, the Copyright Act creates a
>    balance between the artist's right to control
>    the work during the term of copyright protection and
>    the public's need for access to creative works.
>    The copyright term is limited so that the public
>    will not be permanently deprived of the fruits of
>    an artist's labors. (495 U.S. 207, 228 (1990))
>=20
> _Summary_
>=20
> The proposed 20 year extension of copyright will continue the
> near complete inaccessibility of a large portion of our common
> heritage.  This proposal should not be passed by Congress.
> The reasons include:
>=20
>  * This is contrary to the purpose of copyright outlined in the
> United States Constitution.
>=20
>  * It primarily benefits a handful of large companies, with no
> public benefit.
>=20
>  * U.S. copyright extension is not compatible with either the
> Berne Convention or the European Union for works published
> prior to 1978.  [Even if these laws had never been introduced,
> works published in 1978 would still have another 39 years under
> their original 56 year copyright terms.]
>=20
>  * Works that would be about to fall into the public domain are
> of a great educational and historical importance.
>=20
>  * Public domain material is used to create new works, such as
> reference books, CD-ROMs, on-line material, and documentary and
> educational films.
>=20
>  * Congress should encourage the development of new
> technologies, with laws that increase the availability of
> creative works to the public.
>=20
>=20
> 4.  A Tax On All Internet Information
>=20
> "TOBIN TAX" ON G-7 AGENDA.
> A tax on international electronic currency transactions and the transfer
> of information electronically will be on the agenda at June's G-7 summit
> in Halifax.  The tax was first proposed by Nobel Prize winning economist
> James Tobin and was recently supported at the recent UN Summit on Social
> Development by Canada and France.  (Toronto Financial Post 3/15/95 p. 4)
>=20
> In addition there is a movement to "read" everything you send, too; this
> accounts for the restrictions on encryption and the weakening of the DES
> [Defense Encryption Standard?] so that even the "most secure" message is
> readable by those who think they should be able to.
>=20
>=20
> 5.  What Happens When Your Library Can't Get The Information You Ask For
>     Because It Went Out of Print In Only Six Years But Is Copyrighted An
>     Additional 100 Years?
>=20
> Half the books stocked by libraries are out of print if re-ordered after
> five years have passed.  If this continues at that rate then 75% of them
> are out of print after 10 years, 87% after 15, 94% after 20, and only 3%
> would be left much after 25 years.  This does not take into account that
> a huge portion of copyrighted material goes "out of print" the very day,
> week, or month it goes into print, as with television shows, newspapers,
> magazines, radio shows, etc.  A trip to the local bookstore revealed the
> policy that many paperbacks go out of print after only 6 weeks, not that
> 6 year figure for books and other more durable information.
>=20
>=20
> 6.  Copyright Becomes "Permanent" When the Only People Living After Your
>     Copyright Expires Are Legal Fictions [Known as "Corporations"
>=20
> Copyright is currently 75 years. . .if you are old enough to read this--
> you are very likely not going to be here by the time the copyright would
> have expired on any new books, movies or music you saw in the last eight
> years. . .after all, only 1% of us live to be over 85. . .and they would
> like to extend these copyrights to 95 years.
>=20
> According to the US Supreme Court materials are not supposed to be under
> permanent copyright protection:  yet 97% of the people who saw any movie
> last year will be dead by the time it goes into the Public Domain, under
> the current 75 year copyrights. . .since 75 is as old as the most recent
> figures say the average American is going to get and not many viewers of
> movies are 0 years old when they see them; about 1% of the US population
> lives to be over 85.  If the new copyright law is passed, virtually none
> of our population will live the required 95 years to have copies made in
> the Public Domain, which renders the copyright permanent for those other
> than those "fictional entities" known as corporations.
>=20
>=20
> 7.  If This Is The "Information Age?"  Why Are They Locking It All Up?
>=20
> If information doubled at an average rate of every 14 years in the 1900s
> and copyrights last 75 years, then only 1 piece of information out of 32
> is currently in the Public Domain.
>=20
> Why do they need to make it even less by increasing copyright duration
> 19 years 19 years ago, and 20 years now?
>=20
> Information is going out of date faster every day.  Hundreds of papers,
> books, movies, musical selections, are all prepared with a lifetime of
> a day, a week, or a month or two, and is never heard from again except
> on New Year's Day Flashback.
>=20
> Of course, if information is doubling every year, as some experts say:
> then 1 year from now 1/2 the information would be over 1 year old. . .
> and 2 years from now 1/4 of the information would be over 2 years old,
> and 3 years from now 1/8 of the information would be over 3 years old,
> and 4 years from now 1/16 of the information would be over 4 years old
> and it would only take 5 years! for 1/32 of the information to be over
> 5 years old. . .so who needs a 100 year copyright?!?
>=20
> We have heard that information is doubling as fast as every 2 years, and
> as slow as every 20 years.  The most reliable sources say 5 to 15 years.
> Even at a 14 year doubling rate the original US copyright of 14 years is
> going to put half the information under copyright at any given time.  At
> 28 years, it would put 3/4 of the information under copyright.  At 56 it
> put 15/16 of the information under copyright, and the 1976 Copyright Act
> moved copyright to 75 years, leaving only a few percent of information a
> =E0=EFviable part of public domain information.
>=20
> The newly proposed 20 year extensions would remove about 60% of that few
> percent of public domain information from public domain access and leave
> it under copyright for so long that 99% of all information would be that
> part under copyright, and only 1% would be left for the public domain.
>=20
>=20
> 8.  Record Book, Music and Movie Sales Were Posted in 1994
>     . . .So Why Does The Publishing Industry Need Each One
>     Of You To Give Up Your Rights to 1,000,000 Of These?
>=20
> The book publishing industry had a record number of million sellers last
> year and certainly does not need the public to give up its rights to old
> copyrighted material that should be becoming new public domain material.
> If the  book publishing industry wants to produce a new edition under an
> entirely new copyright, that is perfectly legal under the old copyright,
> all they have to do is add some value to the old manuscript, just as the
> works of Shakespeare have been recopyrighted all these years, by editors
> who rewrite and reedit these timeless treasures into new editions.  Much
> of the support for this new law comes from the publishing industry.  The
> time to give an industry some support is when there is a great need, the
> famous "Chrysler Bailout" of 15 years ago is a prime example, in which a
> huge amount of public taxes were spent to keep Chrysler from disaster.
>=20
> Last year Chrysler had a record year, and now the previous Chrysler head
> is trying to buy the company.  This is one kind of success in bailouts.
>=20
> Perhaps when the book publishing is doing as poorly as Chrysler was, the
> time will then come to consider how applicable it is to take rights away
> from the public for the benefit of corporations.  There are six billions
> of people in the world today, and the greatest sellers of an editions of
> books, music or movies haven't reached but a very small fraction, and we
> have, for the first time, an opportunity to give the entire world access
> to public domain information.
>=20
> Let's not cut the amount of information in the public domain by over 60%
> of what it would be otherwise, just on the eve of a truly worldwide time
> of an Information Age.
>=20
> Let us not create an even wider discrepancy between the Information Rich
> and the Information Poor as we have been warned us about repeatedly.
>=20
> The music industry shipped one billion items last year, a record for the
> entire history of the music industry.  Therefore the music industry does
> not need this kind of bailout of copyright taking precedence over public
> domain at this time, and the efforts of the music industry to extend the
> copyright laws are also out of place at this time.
>=20
> The movie industry also had a record year, so the same applies in a case
> considering movie copyrights.  Just look at who the highest paid CEOs or
> Board Chairmen are, and you will see.  Not only that, but there just are
> not that many movies from over 75 or 95 years ago to be concerned about,
> and most of those are "out of print" and can never be brought back.  The
> fact is, that the movie industry complains that they are having a hugely
> difficult time in creating an archive of movie history because most of a
> whole history of moviemaking has been thrown away. . .but wouldn't there
> be more copies to search for if these were not so zealously guarded by a
> series of copyright laws. . . .
>=20
> Sounds very much like cases of wanting to have your cake and eat it too.
>=20
> These comments were put together by a great many suggestions, and thanks
> to all those whose efforts were sent in.  If we didn't include yours, an
> updated version of this is in the works, and you are encouraged to put a
> new or old suggestion in.  We had to work a lot to keep this short.
>=20
>=20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
>=20
> Thank you for your time and consideration,
>=20
> Michael S. Hart, Professor of Electronic Text
> Executive Director of Project Gutenberg Etext
> Illinois Benedictine College, Lisle, IL 60532
> No official connection to U of Illinois--UIUC
> hart @uiucvmd.bitnet or [log in to unmask]
>=20
>=20
> Internet User Number 100 [approximately] [TM]
>=20
> Break Down the Bars of Ignorance & Illiteracy
> On the Carnegie Libraries' 100th Anniversary!
>=20
> COPYRIGHT 1995 PROF. MICHAEL S. HART, ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
> THIS MESSAGE MAY NOT BE COPIED WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION
> *OTHER THAN TO REPLY TO THE AUTHOR OR TO THIS EMAIL LIST*
> THIS COPYRIGHT NOTICE WOULD ACCOMPANY ALL SUCH QUOTATIONS
> PERMISSION EASILY AVAILABLE UPON REQUEST TO THIS ADDRESS.
>=20
> For those who received previous permission to repost this
> article in its previous edition, permission is granted to
> also repost this third edition.    Many thanks!   Michael





From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 15:32:08 1995
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Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 15:29:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Lorraine Prentice <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Militarism a fact of life? And lack of imagination in Star Trek.
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <Pine.SV4.3.91.950512150924.11549B-100000@thunderbird>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Fri, 12 May 1995, Vaillancourt Alain wrote:

> On Fri, 12 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:
> 
> > >Militarism is a sad fact of life, *now*, but so was cowpox, until we >worked
> > >to find a cure.
> > 
> > As much as I would like to see militarism vanish from the face of the earth,
> > I don't think this analogy holds up.  Cowpox was a biological disease.
> >  Militarism is not something that can be "cured."  It is a social problem
> > arising because people are people.
> > 
> > To the extent that I believe in original sin, I do not believe that we human
> > beings can overcome our own imperfections all on our own _a la_ _ Star Trek:
> > The Next Generation_.
> 
> OK then, if you want a better analogy, we managed to overcome cannibalism! 
> 
> And after that, we managed to overcome the practice of widespread religious 
> human sacrifice.
> 
> >From that viewpoint it seems rather easy to overcome the need to go to 
> war against other nations, since eating and praying seem to be more basic 
> urges (and more difficult to rationalize) than dying for a flag.
> 
> Which is why the future society in Star trek, the next generation seemed 
> so flat and implausible.  Seems much easier to overcome a social ill like 
> militarism than profound human urges like ambition, jealousy and cupidity.

I believe it's being suggested that militarism stems, in large part, from 
profound human urges like aggression, territorialism, greed, and 
power lust. Social ills, to my mind, are such things as poverty, hunger, 
homelessness, illiteracy, and hopelessness.  Perhaps if societies focused 
their surplus energy on curing these social ills, there would be no time 
(or testosterone) available for militarism--the polite cover for naked 
aggression etc.  Just day dreaming on a Friday afternoon, I suppose...

Lorraine Prentice

 

 


From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 15:34:02 1995
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Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 12:33:27 -0700
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Out-of-print books
To: [log in to unmask]
X-Mailer: AIR Mail 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)

Jessica J. Frasca:

As a CFO of an Internet services company and an avid collector of books, I can 
respond to your inquiry. The cost for a business page is $150 setup and $25 
per month. The author or group of authors could calculate the breakeven of 
this venture. 

Would I collect books on the net? Probably not. I enjoy the hunt for the 
texts. I like the increasing worth of the novels. These are books which no one 
else may have interest in reading (ie, Ballard, Clark Aston Smith, Merritt, 
Peak, Aldiss, etc..). There is one author currently down loading his books for 
free on the net. I tried it once, but the files were gigantic. 

Perhaps a better solution is to post catalogs on the net. Some of this is 
available on Compuserve now (Pandoras Books). I think this could be very 
profitable for someone to do. Maybe, I should write up the business plan on 
this idea, fund it, and find anyone interested to run it.


Joe de Beauchamp
Seattle, Washington

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 15:35:52 1995
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 id <[log in to unmask]>; Fri, 12 May 1995 15:35:45 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 15:35:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Alternate media
To: [log in to unmask]
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There are a lot of limits to power, or clout, in the sf field. After
more than 50 books, some Hugos and Nebulas, a couple of bestsellers, and
a relatively good sales record, here's what I -can- do:

1. Sell any story or book I want to write
2. Sell to just about any publisher around (the only one I haven't
   sold to, over the years, is del Rey)
3. Get "leader treatment" (i.e., raised metallic type, ad budget,
   dump displays, etc) written into my contract
4. Count of selling any story to at least 4 countries, any book to 
   at least 6.
5. Ignore deadlines.

At the same time, here's what I -can't- do:

1. Get as big an advance as I want
2. Choose my cover artist
3. Have -any- input into cover art, packaging, or marketing
4. Get reviewed by the New York LIterary Establishment
5. Get paid on time by any publisher in the industry; this goes for
   signature advances, delivery payments, and royalty statements.

It tends to even out in the end.

<signed> "Just your typical 25-year overnight success", Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 15:45:53 1995
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From: "Jim, DECnet/OSI:VMS, LKG2-2/Q5  12-May-1995 1521 -0400" <[log in to unmask]>
To: local:.us1rmc::"[log in to unmask]"@us1rmc.bb.dec.com
Apparently-To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: SF-LOVERS LIST

There've been lengthy pauses since Saul moved onto a new PC of his very own
( too bad he couldn't get a real computer! :-)  But there have also been
periods of steady activity; we're in the middle of one now.

The latest I have is Volume 20 : Issue 89, one of four mailed Thursday, 11 May.

I've dropped off the distr altogether, in the past, without anyone knowing the
reason why -- nor caring: I asked about it, and it got fixed, end of matter.
Mail a request to the subscription-admin address:

	[log in to unmask]

and mention in the body that you thought you were already on the list.
I have no idea whether your message will get read by a human or a batch
router, but you'll have given his system its best chance of working.  I think
the worst that could happen is that you get added as a new subscriber while a
corrupted or non-functional address stays on the list, non-functioning...

You can catch up on back issues, while you're waiting to hear, via anonymous
ftp:
	[log in to unmask]

In the directory pub/sfl/Digest are archived past months' issues as well as
past years' (and the current month's are usually there too, dumped into a
workfile called RMAIL).  If you copy one of these, remember they're sizeable
files, each containing dozens of issues -- after-hours copying, I should say.

Or check out ftp://sflovers.rutgers.edu/pub/sflovers on the Web.
									-JwT

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 16:01:52 1995
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          with SMTP (PP); Fri, 12 May 1995 22:01:39 +0000
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 22:01:37 +0200 (MESZ)
From: "[log in to unmask]" 
      <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Writing/Reading and "Literature"and sf and teachers
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 9 May 1995, Vaillancourt Alain wrote:

> Seems like when you have fairly good lit. teachers in whatever country you 
> are in and whatever language they teach, they cannot avoid placing SF on the 
> curriculum.  It is as much part of modern lit. as detective novels, the 
> new novel and comic strips and books.

   Well, I don't think you can say this about Germany. I am quite sure that 
you won't find ANY teachers here, that will teach SF at college level or 
even mention it. You might be able to write your MA thesis on SF if you try 
really hard and camouflage it as something else, but you will have a LOT of 
trouble to find courses focussing on SF.
   I am actually thinking of going to the US for the (nearly) sole reason 
to study SF there, because there are hardly any opportunities here and 
people nearly laugh in my face, when I mention that I intend to study it.
   

That's all for now.
Cheerio
Andreas

[log in to unmask]









From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 16:21:54 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: Serge Berezhnoy <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Moscow 2042
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 00:20:19 +0400


 > I suppose the book is passe now, but what do you think of it?  Did it read
 > better in Russian than in English?

Alas, I read it in Russian only. Original text always preferrable for me :)
And I think the novel is almost non-fiction. The mix of the REAL haox of both 
Soviet and post-Soviet times. Voynovich only made them slightly more 
readable... The sad conclusion for my country, but I'm happy that this book
was published here -- it means we really can see our true faces and not brake 
the mirror after this.

Serge Berezhnoy
St.Petersburg, Russia

--- GoldED 2.50.Beta5+
 * Origin: Camelot-89. Voice call (812)-310-6007 (2:5030/207.2)




From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 16:22:04 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: Serge Berezhnoy <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Enemy Mine
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 00:20:20 +0400


I like the original Barry Longyear's story (it was translated into Russian)
too much for compare it with the movie. And all the Mr. Effinger wrote about 
the film people makes me sure that they were kizzloddas (sorry my poor 
Draconian spelling). They couldn't add anything valuable to the movie, but
I must be grateful (both to they and to God) that they don't kill the story 
main idea completly. Good for them.

Serge V. Berezhnoy
St.Petersburg, Russia

--- GoldED 2.50.Beta5+
 * Origin: Camelot-89. Voice call (812)-310-6007 (2:5030/207.2)




From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 16:22:12 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: Serge Berezhnoy <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: McHugh's "Virtual Love"
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 00:20:23 +0400


C. Douglas Baker asked:

 > What is the story "Virtual Love" by Maureen McHugh about?

The story of ill woman lives mostly in the many-user virtual reality unde the 
different artificial faces and fall in love with the other masked user.

Well-made story, but I read it in translation and, I'm afraid, I didn't catch 
all the charm of the original text.

Serge V. Berezhnoy
St.Petrsburg, Russia

--- GoldED 2.50.Beta5+
 * Origin: Camelot-89. Voice call (812)-310-6007 (2:5030/207.2)




From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 16:22:23 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: Serge Berezhnoy <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: The Golden Gormenghast
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 00:20:24 +0400


Help, anybody!

 ->> description quoted by (oh, let's just say markw, since we're
 ->> attributing everything to him anyway) is strongly reminiscent
 ->> of Gormenghast, the castle in a trilogy written by Mervyn Peake.

We made the translation of "Amber Chronicles" or Roger Zelazny, and several
quotes and reminiscents we couldn't found - for now. In BLOOD OF AMBER Merlin 
compares Keep of Four Worlds with Gormenghast. We found that Gormenghast is 
form one of Mervin Peake's novels, but, alas, none of novels by Peake were 
translated to Russian and we can't found original publications.

The questions:

1 - What is the trilogy title?
2 - What are the novels titles?
3 - Would anybody be so kind to quote the description of Gormenghast?

All this information we'll include to the comments to the translation.

Answer via email, please.

Serge V. Berezhnoy
St.Petersburg, Russia
[log in to unmask]

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From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 16:22:41 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: Serge Berezhnoy <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Russian alternate histories
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 00:20:16 +0400


Last five years were the time of real blowup for Russian alternate histories.

Vasily Aksenov's masterpiece OSTROV KRYM (THE CRIMEA ISLAND) was the first.
The books was published outside of USSR first, so you had to know about it
long before I'd read it.

Then there were several works of Andrey Lazarchuk. The novel INOYE NEBO 
(ANOTHER HEAVEN) was the hit. The world where Hitler killed in 1943 and Hering
victoriously finished WWII. And in 1991 huge The Third Reich include almost all 
Europe countries begins fall aparts.

BTW, I rememer, last year I wrote a rewiew on the book. :)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Svyashchenny Mesyats Rin'" ["Sacred Month of Rin'"],
Andrei Lazarchuck (Terra Fantastica, St.Petersburg, 384 pp, hc)
1993. Cover by Dmitry Kholodov.

New collection of Andrei Lazarchuk contains four titles: short
novel "Inoye Nebo" ["Another Heaven"], novella
"Teplo i Svet" ["Warmth and Light"] and two
short stories - "Svyashchenny Mesyats Rin'" and
"Mumiya" ["Mummy"]. The first and the last
titles are original, and "Sacred Month..." is at first
in book. All four titles are alternate worlds stories.

"Another Heaven" has very strong plot. In fact, it is
political thriller. Basic point of the world's history is the
Third Reich's victory in WWII. All Europe - except Great
Britain - occupied, and a European part of USSR too. Russian
national state (non-Communist, of course) remains in the West
Siberia; the East Siberia occupied by Japan. Huge Third Reich
existed with some troubles to the late 1980th and then departure
began. The hero, "Pan" Valinetsky, is senior agent of
Special Operations Department of Siberian Air Forces. He and his
group get a secret task to ensure security of Moscow summit of
the Russian and German leaders, where the problem of reunion of
Russia may be solved. Lazarchuk is extremely good in tiering
plot-lines in this novel. Group of Valinetsky confronts not only
against Georgia terrorists-freedom-fighters, but against both
Russian and German nationalist fanatics, Japan agents and,
meanwhile, German secret police. Add to this highly developed
alternate world, deeply overthought terminology - and you may
be undoubtedly sure you'll enjoy this novel.

"Sacred Month of Rin'" is another well-made tale.
Clerical Russian Empire in XXII century widened it's influence
to the newly discovered human-like off-world alien race. Dogmas
of one of the aliens' religions seemed very close to the
Orthodox Christian Church's ones, and, in time, it becomes the
state religion on the planet. The problem is that metabolism of
aliens connected symbiotically with one of the planet's animal
named "Igrikho". This species take proteines necessary
for their life from blood of aliens, which, in their turn, need
in proteines contains in "Igrikho's" odor. This
biological circle (its existence remains unknown to earthmen)
brings to life several customs absolutely incompatible with
Christianity - such as limited infanticide,



From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 16:22:52 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: Serge Berezhnoy <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: 1995 Russian SF Awards
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 00:20:14 +0400


1995 BRONZE SNAIL AWARD

Presenting annualy for the best publications of the previous year by Boris 
Strugatsky personaly.

Novel:       Andrey Lazarchuk, SOLDATY VAVILONA (SOLDIERS OF BABEL)
Novella:     Alexander Shchegolev, "Noch navsegda" ("Night Forever")
Short Story: Boris Shtern, "Kashchey Bessmertny - poet besov" ("Kashchey the 
  Immortal - Poet of the Imps")
Non-fiction: Vyacheslav Rybakov, KRUZHAS' V POISKAH SMYSLA (CIRCLING IN QUEST 
 OF REASON)
===================================================================

1995 INTERPRESSCON AWARD

Presenting annualy by the voting by the InterPressCon participants.

Novel: Svyatoslav Loginov, MNOGORUKY BOG DALAINA (COUNTLESSHAND GOD OF DALAIN) 
Novella: Sergey Kazmenko, "Znak Drakona" ("Sign of the Dragon", posthumously) 
Short Story: Sergey Lukyanenko, "Fugu v mundire" ("Fugu in the coat")
Non-fiction: Vadim Kazakov, "Polyot nad gnezdom lyagushki" ("Flying Above the 
 Frog Nest")

====================================================================

1995 STRANGER AWARD

Professional writers award, presenting annualy by the special jury.

Life Achievements:    Vitaly Bugrov (posthumously)
Novel:                Mihail Uspensky, TAM, GDE NAS NET (THERE WE ARE NOT)
Novella: Mihail Uspensky, "Dorogoi tovarishch korol" ("Dear Comrad the King") 
Short Story: Boris Shtern, "Kashchey Bessmertny - poet besov" ("Kashchey the 
Immortal - Poet of the Imps")
Translation:          Sergey Khrenov for the translanion of "Manuel Saga" by
                           James Branch Cabell
Non-fiction:          Victor Pelevin, "Zombifikatsia" ("Zombification")
Editor:               Roman Solntsev for "Den' i Noch" magazine (Krasnoyarsk).
Publisher: Mir Publishing House for the "Foreign SF" book line. Artist: Yana 
Ashmarina for the illustrations to The Collected    Works of Robert Heinlein

Good SF!

Serge V. Berezhnoy
St.Petersburg, Russia
[log in to unmask]
--- GoldED 2.50.Beta5+
 * Origin: Camelot-89. Voice call (812)-310-6007 (2:5030/207.2)




From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 19:02:34 1995
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Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 18:02:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Militarism a fact of life? And lack of imagination in Star Trek.
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Eh, if I slept during anthropology class, not ALL the human race 
consisted of cannibals.  Thus, "we" never outgrew cannibalism (esp. since 
some still exist in the wilds of Africa and (maybe if this is still the 
case) South America.


glw
(Gary L. Warren, in case no one remembered!  ;D)


On Fri, 12 May 1995, Vaillancourt Alain wrote:

> On Fri, 12 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:
> 
> > >Militarism is a sad fact of life, *now*, but so was cowpox, until we >worked
> > >to find a cure.
> > 
> > As much as I would like to see militarism vanish from the face of the earth,
> > I don't think this analogy holds up.  Cowpox was a biological disease.
> >  Militarism is not something that can be "cured."  It is a social problem
> > arising because people are people.
> > 
> > To the extent that I believe in original sin, I do not believe that we human
> > beings can overcome our own imperfections all on our own _a la_ _ Star Trek:
> > The Next Generation_.
> 
> OK then, if you want a better analogy, we managed to overcome cannibalism! 
> 
> And after that, we managed to overcome the practice of widespread religious 
> human sacrifice.
> 
> >From that viewpoint it seems rather easy to overcome the need to go to 
> war against other nations, since eating and praying seem to be more basic 
> urges (and more difficult to rationalize) than dying for a flag.
> 
> Which is why the future society in Star trek, the next generation seemed 
> so flat and implausible.  Seems much easier to overcome a social ill like 
> militarism than profound human urges like ambition, jealousy and cupidity.
> 
> And, of course, the scripts in the Next Generation never managed to 
> illustrate this, or even attempted to explore this disappearance of such 
> basic human drives.  On the other hand, the original series sometimes 
> explored the slow disappearance of such urges in human-like alien 
> societies (see the aliens of Rigel 4 in "Wolf in the fold", which had 
> nearly done away with jealousy) because at the time Roddenberry was not 
> yet ossified and he was being prodded into creativity by external influences.
> 
> Of course, the disapearance of militarism is not a sure thing, and even 
> if it does disappear, it might be for something worse.
> 
> Post-nuclear holocaust dystopias where there is no militarism (everything 
> military has been blown away or disbanded) but a reversion to cannibalism 
> by the survivors are too numerous to count.
> 
> Au revoir!
> 
> DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask] 
> 
> 
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 19:09:43 1995
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: New thread!!          Anyone read Vurt?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 00:08:54 +0100 (BST)
From: Andy Butler <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Camille" at May 12, 95 01:29:53 pm
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Now then,
> 
> Andy--Thanks for posting your interview about VURT--is that the paper, or
> part of the material you used to compose the paper?
> 
> Camille
> 
No, it's just something I shamelessly stole when it appeared on the PKD 
discussion list.  My paper is about 30KB (if I've counted right) or 500 + 
lines, and was composed without the aid of this useful interview.


Cheers

Andy Butler

English Department
University of Hull
Hull
UK

[log in to unmask]

"We drift down time, clutching at straws.  But what good's a brick to a 
drowning man?"





From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 12 21:21:44 1995
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Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 21:21:44 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Militarism a fact of life...

 Friday 12 May, Alain Vaillancourt wrote; 
>>>
And after that, we managed to overcome the practice of widespread religious
human sacrifice.
>>>>>

Well, maybe in Canada and other some other countries. Here in the U.S.,
although it is illegal to sacrifice another adult, if you wish to sacrifice
your own child to your god; it is perfectly legal to do so in many (most?)
states. Mind you, you can't just kill her outright, you have to wait for her
to get a serious illness. At that point you are allowed to deny the child
proper medical treatment while the child dies a slow painful death as you
perform whatever rituals you deem fit, usually prayer (Christian Scientists).
Jehovas Wittnesses are a little less fanatic. Their dogma only prohibits
blood transfusions, so if the doctor can fix you without needing a
transfusion, you don't have to be a sacrifice, otherwise. . .

On the whole, I rather put up with a little  militarism.

Normally I sign off cheers, but. . .

Michael Fisher, Spring Valley, Ca.

From [log in to unmask]  Sat May 13 09:31:46 1995
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From: Richard Wallace Oberdorfer <[log in to unmask]>
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Rereading
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sat, 13 May 95 9:31:43 EDT
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>; from "[log in to unmask]" at May 12, 95 7:31 am
X-Mailer: PENELM [version 2.3.1 PL11]

It seems to me that that there are plenty of books one can
come back to again and again.  I've read John M. Ford's THE
DRAGON WAITING four times.  The characterizations, the
spectacular prose, and the impressive historical scholarship
keep drawing me back -- and I always find something new.

There are plenty of good books for which one reading seems
plenty; and unfortunately, there are even more that I wish I
had never picked up the first time. Still, I worry about the
conclusion that the pace of our age makes one encounter with
anything enough.  You may not be able to duplicate your first
positive impressions when you approach a book the second time,
but -- for me anyway -- coming back is like renewing an old
friendship.

Richard Oberdorfer

From [log in to unmask]  Sat May 13 14:09:07 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Why reread books?
Date: Sat, 13 May 95 18:42:00 BST
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Marina wrote:

>Dave writes:
>
>>I was wondering about all this, myself.  I /can/ hit 100 pages or so an 
hour
>>if I really /have/ to get through something for reasonable familiarity but 

>>have not (as usual) left myself enough time to do it right.  (I remember
>>first encountering The Tempest this way - not entirely satisfactory - and 
I
>>challenge anyone to get through, say, Foucault's Pendulum at that speed 
and
>>really know what's going on!)
>
[...]
>There seems be a musunderstanding about fast readers.  I can only speak for
>myself of couse, but I don't read fast because I _try_ to read fast, or
>because I _have_ to read fast.  That's just how I read.  I don't skim.  I
>do read every word.  I savor the language and try to understand all the
>ideas.  But I still read about 100 pages an hour.  Even _Foucault's 
Pendulum_

Well, in my (more extreme!) youth I used routinely to read a lot more 
quickly than I do now.  Maybe I've just trained myself into reading slowly 
for some perverse reason of concentration.  I know that I keep going back 
again to see how a bit I've just read feeds into this bit, and then going 
back again to see how they both flow into /this/ bit, so who knows what 
other awful habits I have in this direction and don't notice at all? 
 (Someone said something about rewriting books mentally while reading them - 
there's an element a bit like that in there as well, though I think it's 
more to do with just playing with alternatives.)  It must be impossible 
realistically to compare the speeds at which different people are getting 
what they might call value out of something they read, though.  What 
happens, out of interest, when you read poetry?  At that rate (bearing in 
mind the quantities of blank paper involved) you'll blast through a complete 
Larkin in, what, half an hour?  An hour?  Difficult for me to imagine anyone 
enjoying that, though no doubt some do.  I read fast (including poetry, I 
confess!) if I feel I have to, because for some reason I seem no longer to 
enjoy covering the ground as I used to but can persuade myself it's 
necessary on occasion.  I wonder sometimes whether I'm trying to capture 
more fully the feel of the language as spoken, or something, hence the query 
about poetry.  Oh, I dunno....

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Sat May 13 14:11:51 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Ref: SF-LOVERS list
Date: Sat, 13 May 95 18:54:00 BST
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Regarding the SF-Lovers list...

>It is up and running fine.  I just received posts from it last night.
>A bunch of TV stuff; SQ, VR5, ST:V, etc...
>

Well, I gather that's the idea (I've been getting things, too, lately) but 
it seemed from what Saul was saying a while ago that all or at least the 
vast majority of the barrage of technical problems had been sorted weeks 
ago.  It has seemed quieter recently than before the disaster, but it has 
still been pretty steady at that level.  Even then it seemed that the main 
problem had been mail queues, crashes and other nasties that conspired to 
ensure that for a while the very few who got anything actually got the same 
thing every ten minutes for a week.  In case anyone who feels they ought to 
be getting it is not getting any (and that can, of course, be tough), then 
it seems that Saul Jaffe is very much on the case and the address for 
queries is still:

[log in to unmask]

I've no idea what the explanation might be, but surely it can't hurt to ask. 
 Hope that helps

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Sat May 13 14:36:28 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: odd statements

Hi, Dave, You said:

>>Just wanted to suggest that this is a curious pair of statements to find in
the same message...<<

Not extremely. Let me explain. I find that, as a general rule, British TV SF
is more consistently written than US TV SF. I just happen to find one
particular British TV SF writer's work to not be to my taste. He's
technically competent. His style doesn't grab me. Is it clearer to you now?
:) And yes, this means that I found the Terry Nation era of Dr. Who to be the
most boring period of the series, Tom Baker or not. I prefer Peter Davison
and Sylvester McCoy, anyway.

From [log in to unmask]  Sat May 13 14:37:26 1995
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Date:         Sat, 13 May 95 14:24:50 EDT
From: Catherine Morgan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      re: Wingrove and Chinese phil.
To: [log in to unmask]

On Fri., 12 May, Camille wrote:

 "Mmmmmmm. How does Wingrove combine Confucian and Taoist philosophy? They
 are sort of contradictory, aren't they?"

 No, they are not. First, I did not say that Wingrove _combined_ the two,
although I can see how you might have deduced that. Second, Confucianism and
Taoism are complementary philosophies. Confucianism was an ethical system that
focussed primarily on how government should be run for the benefit of all. He
encouraged the age-old practice of ancestor worship.

Taoism was centered around ancestor worship, pantheism, and magic. Taken to-
gether, Taoism is the mystical side of Chinese philosophy, and Confucianism is
the practical side.

    --Cat., whose undergraduate degree is in Eastern Philosophy
            and Existentialism, two other systems not mutually exclusive  ;-)

Catherine Buck Morgan
College of Library & Information Science, USC
[log in to unmask]
Phone (803)951-3144

If I am not for myself, Who is for me?
If I am only for myself, Who am I?
If not now, When?

From [log in to unmask]  Sat May 13 21:23:56 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Rereading

There's also the association of what was going on when I  first read a story.
 Rereading a story to revisit a moment of the past.

(not sure I worded that idea too well)

On the other hand, I find that rereading often disapoints me.  My memory of a
story often adds my own flavor to a story, rereading does take some of the
'enhanced rememberance' away devaluing my opinion of a story.

--Paul


From [log in to unmask]  Sun May 14 10:38:36 1995
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Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 07:37:30 -0700
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Hubris is Pubris
To: [log in to unmask]
X-Mailer: AIR Mail 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)

Review of Wings on a Song 
by Thomas Disch

Thomas Disch book was great for I had the following dream:

Soon, with the slow de-volution of the human race; they're loss
of volition, drive, mental capacity and hubris;  I shall don my
harlequin mask and begin speaking to the masses. I will offer
them irrefutable syllogisms. I shall conquer, support, and enjoin
their egos, before further erosive decay causes MORE decline of
our species. Only a God could arrest the deleteriousness of their
weak pronounced lassitudes. My rhetoric shall be carried across
every electronic wave with HOPE. The announcements will, also, be
done subliminally, with song, and soul. 

Before it is too late, I shall tell them, and with impetration,
that  "You -the people- may be assuaged, and not discouraged, for
I am here. Do not loose heart in the morass of TV morbidity! Fear
not, in the journalist allures of the Simpson symposium. I know,
since the trial of ten years, ago that gigantic collectives have
formed fan clubs, and even theater, to commemorate Mr. Simpson's
not guilty verdict. And what a magnificent trial it was, but,
surely, to advance as a people, we must strive towards a better
life for all! This stupor and torpid attention to the 'booby
tube' must end. Mr. Simpson's appearances at  the symposium, his
national bestseller, and his rise to become the first black
president, have drained your zest for life.  With this
mesmerizing broadcast, I shall help you cast off HIS hero
worship! Soon, you shall become cognizant how HE used HIS
billions of dollars to worm his way into every minute of your
life. This infatuation caused the fatuousness of today's events,
the moral squalor and the lack of incentive. Together, we shall
reopen the factories. We shall change money again. We will have
sex again without guilt of homo-cide. I know, when it was
discovered that OJ was a homo, and that homicide was acquitted
in concept and form, we lost ourselves. We lost our interest
and we have lived in shock ever since."

The computers have calculated the necessary inflection, syntax,
and verboseness in my hyperbolic speech. "I shall be a
resurrection and a salvation."  With humorous hubris, I shall
save mankind with my song and dance. The world is a stage and it
is mine for the taking. "I am HE that has returned to you." I am
Al Jolson that was cloned from the DNA/RNA of Adolf Hitler. My
genetic soup will zoup them up!

And the narrator recalls a century later: Al Jolson's performance
was superlative. Yes, friends, the Simpson scourge was defused.
Egos were repaired. The replacement cost? Well, someday,
we might get back to breakeven. At least we got our sex acts
back, with a certain stiffness. 

Joe de Beauchamp
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Sun May 14 16:39:38 1995
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Subject: Re: militarism a fact of life?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 13:39:34 -0700 (PDT)
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C. Douglas Baker:

 	Militarism is not something that can be "cured."  It is a social problem
arising because people are people.  
	To the extent that I believe in original sin, I do not believe that 
we human beings can overcome our own imperfections all on our own.

	You seem to be using instincts as an explanatory principle. The 
result seems circular: in effect, you seem to say that people are 
militaristic because people are militaristic.
	This is a common assumption in capitalistic societies, where it 
is comforting to believe that competition is inevitable. It is also very 
common in science fiction, perhaps because SF is still American-centered, 
and the United States has a strong capitalistic ethos. It may have 
something to do with Heinlein's influence, too. But, whatever the case, 
the idea deserves to rank with the worst cliches of SF. I thought that 
Fritz Leiber had lampooned it to death with "Our Saucer Vacation," but I 
notice it creeping back recently.
	Of course, it is obviously a valid view. Only an idiot would 
claim that humans are incapable of aggression. But I doubt if they are 
naturally aggressive any more than they are naturally cooperative. It seems 
to me that you can only can down on one side of the issue by selectively 
choosing your facts.

-- 

Bruce Byfield ([log in to unmask])			
English Department, Simon Fraser University
Burnaby, B. C. Canada V5A 1S6 604-291-3136		

From cstu  Sun May 14 18:00:22 1995
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Date: Sun, 14 May 1995 18:00:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Please no more messages on Militarism
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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The discussion on the topic of militarism has moved away from science 
fiction/fantasy and become one of human nature.  Please let this topic 
die, unless you have a angle more closely related to the purpose of the 
list.  Unfortunately, I must discard any messages on this topic that do 
not have a science fiction or fantasy relationship.

Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]



From shal  Sun May 14 18:44:57 1995
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From: "Stephanie A. Hall" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Militarism a fact of life? And lack of imagination in Star Trek.
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Dear, oh dear, cultural evolution again: the great bugaboo of 19th century 
science and still alive and well in science fiction.  _Star Trek_ in 
particular does perpetuate the idea.  I guess the idea that space travel 
is a necessary outcome of evolution has a certain romance. As does the 
companion idea that we will all have to learn to live in peace in order 
to "evolve" into space faring people.  Who knows? maybe wishing it so may
make it so -- but they are not concepts supported by anthropology.

Those who believe we are evolving away from our aggressive past often call
upon the idea that "we are preditors" and "were always warlike." False 
assumptions:  

Look at your teeth and fingernails and compare them to the teeth and claws 
of real preditors.  We are scavengers who occasionally predate. That's why 
we invented grocery stores.  

Contrary to social-evolutionist's beliefs, there have been many cultures 
that did not practice warfare -- some are still with us today (the Hopi 
are a well-known example).  War is not a necessary condition of mankind. 

The American Anthropolgical Association has long fought the outdated 
idea of human aggression as inevitable. The idea endangers cultural 
relations between peoples, is used to justify inappropriate foreign 
policies, imperialism, wars, etc.  They have issued a formal statement 
that the anthropological evidence does not support the idea that humans 
are necessarily aggressive.

Why is it that folks are always decrying SF stories that have errors in 
physical or engineering science, but accept SF that perpetuates outdated 
ideas or utter hogwash in their presentation of social science?  
I have enjoyed Trek as much as anyone. But when the Captain (pick your 
favorite) starts talking about how an alien "planetary culture" may 
eventually "evolve" past their "warlike period" to the point where they 
can "join the Federation" it is time to reach for the remote.  


Stephanie

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist           The Library of Congress
American Folklife Center               preserves and houses
Library of Congress                    countless ideas and opinions.
Washington, DC 20540-8100              Those expressed here 
[log in to unmask]                           are my own.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^









From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 15 01:27:16 1995
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Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 01:27:15 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Sci-Fi ??

In a message dated 95-05-12 10:38:40 EDT, you write:

>From: [log in to unmask]
>Sender: [log in to unmask]
>Reply-to: [log in to unmask]
>To: [log in to unmask] (Multiple recipients of list)

<<snip>>

>Or maybe even a story telling of a mad mathmatician set in the 22nd
>century
>could be...      Pi-Fi ???

Hey, don't forget about the futuristic story about the guy who just won't
give up no matter what: Try-Fi.

Or the story about the futuristic guy who likes girls *and* boys: Bi-Fi.

Or the story about the futuristic fisherman:  Fly-Fi.

Or the story about the futuristic private investigator:  Pry-Fi.

Or the story about the futuristic annonymous remailer: annon.penet.-Fi.

::snicker:: 



From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 15 02:55:16 1995
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Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 02:55:13 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Please no more messages on Militarism

Ok, but do you or does anyone on the list know a good list for that/this
discussion ?
I hate talking to myself, but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do, and I
want that conversation at least now.
 -Bothering everyone I'm sure 
 Alexander

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 15 06:04:44 1995
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To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: odd statements
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>Not extremely. Let me explain. I find that, as a general rule, British TV 
SF
>is more consistently written than US TV SF. I just happen to find one
>particular British TV SF writer's work to not be to my taste. He's
>technically competent. His style doesn't grab me. Is it clearer to you now?
>:) And yes, this means that I found the Terry Nation era of Dr. Who to be 
the
>most boring period of the series, Tom Baker or not. I prefer Peter Davison
>and Sylvester McCoy, anyway.

Fair enough.  Personally I can't remember which bits of Dr Who Nation wrote, 
except that I'm reasonably sure he wrote (very likely among others) the bits 
introducing the Daleks which must have been way, way, before the Baker era 
(Hartnell or Troughton, surely...) - but that's entirely beside the point. 
 I've an idea that McCoy is often taken as the Doctor that really took the 
show (with the help of the BBC executive) to previously unplumbed depths of 
self-regarding silliness - but maybe that was someone else.  I'm not at all 
up on it (this may be obvious, I feel...).  I gave up on it after the Tom 
Baker period, although I was subsequently told that Colin Baker (correct 
name?) brought some spirit back into it...

I have some admiration for Nation's efforts.  His writing can certainly be 
less than sparkling, but all the same he has kept the flag flying quite 
personfully for a long time.  It is difficult to make a claim for Blake's 7 
being particularly literary, but all the same Nation personally hauled the 
project into the air and kept it there for four years (doing most of the 
writing for the first two - in fact the whole of the first one).  There is, 
all the same, a pretty good argument to the effect that the show at least 
kept the idea of ambitious TV SF alive (however you rate its success) and 
thereby performed something of a service.  Straczynski (the B5 man) in fact 
cites Blake's 7 in these terms, so it's clearly done some good and Nation 
surely can't be all bad even if his personal delivery can be faulted!

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 15 10:49:20 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: re: multiple reading

Multiple reading of books:

I agree with another listmember who wrote that rereading books 
is one's general habit and not something that involves only 
one genre or another.

Also, some of us "adopt some profession which leaves only 
short, stolen hours for the pleasures of the mind."  (Alexis 
de Tocqueville in _Democracy in America_, translated by Georgie 
Lawrence)  Some of the members of this list must match this 
description.  I for one, read all my assignments for the 
university classes with a marker and notebook in my hand, 
rarely do the same however, when it comes to fiction and to my 
favorits within, SF&F.  Furthermore, I steal most of those 
hours from sleep; all these circumstances lead to inevitably 
missing a few nuiances of the book.  Then, rereading books is 
always another attempt of discovery, the sensation is similar 
to suddenly noticing a beautiful tree in your neighborhood 
where you've been living for 20 years.

Gyorgyi Toth

P.S.: I just bought an English copy of _The Lord of the 
Rings_.  It will be a significantly new experience after 
reading it about twelve times in Hungarian.


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 15 12:43:32 1995
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From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Reading speed
Date: Mon, 15 May 95 09:52:00 UTC
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Isn't the human brain an amazing organ.  To read it must focus and direct 
the eyes to the image of a word, recognise it and retrieve it's meaning, (in 
context of course); and at 100 pages an hour it must do this at a consistant 
rate of around 15 times per second!
My personal model though can only manage around a third that rate.  Perhaps 
I should invest in a maths co-processor, or go-faster stripes.

markw - who'd love one and a half salaries to run his family on.


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 15 14:18:12 1995
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Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 14:19:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: "M.L. Davis" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 1995 Russian SF Awards
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Sun, 14 May 1995, Serge Berezhnoy wrote:

> 
> 1995 BRONZE SNAIL AWARD
> 
> Presenting annualy for the best publications of the previous year by Boris 
> Strugatsky personaly.
> 
Um,... I've been sitting here trying desperately to determine just what 
a bronze snail a) is and b) has to do with sf.  Hugos and nebulas and 
suchlike I think I've got covered, but bronze snails ;)?  Would you care 
to let us in on the origin/meaning behind this award?  

Marie
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:::  "That which does not kill me, makes me funnier"  :::
::: 				- Dennis Miller       :::
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 15 15:28:19 1995
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Date: Mon, 15 May 95 15:28 EDT
From: [log in to unmask] (cb52)
Subject: Re: Re: militarism a fact of life? 
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> 

>C. Douglas Baker:
>
> 	Militarism is not something that can be "cured."  It is a social problem
>arising because people are people.  
>	To the extent that I believe in original sin, I do not believe that

I have not followed this thread since I commented that J.G. Ballard's __War
Fever__ (the short story) was applicable to the discussion. I did not make
the above comment. Please be more careful in your attributions.


>
>	You seem to be using instincts as an explanatory principle. The 
>result seems circular: in effect, you seem to say that people are 
>militaristic because people are militaristic.
>	This is a common assumption in capitalistic societies, where it 
>is comforting to believe that competition is inevitable. It is also very 
>common in science fiction, perhaps because SF is still American-centered, 
>and the United States has a strong capitalistic ethos. It may have 
>something to do with Heinlein's influence, too. But, whatever the case, 
>the idea deserves to rank with the worst cliches of SF. I thought that 
>Fritz Leiber had lampooned it to death with "Our Saucer Vacation," but I 
>notice it creeping back recently.
>	Of course, it is obviously a valid view. Only an idiot would 
>claim that humans are incapable of aggression. But I doubt if they are 
>naturally aggressive any more than they are naturally cooperative. It seems 
>to me that you can only can down on one side of the issue by selectively 
>choosing your facts.
>
>-- 
>
>Bruce Byfield ([log in to unmask])			
>English Department, Simon Fraser University
>Burnaby, B. C. Canada V5A 1S6 604-291-3136		
>
>


C. Douglas Baker
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
        [log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 15 18:49:18 1995
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From: [log in to unmask] (Duffy Tweedy)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Satanic Narnia
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 15:56:13 -40962758 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <9505111900.276A3C@martinw> from "[log in to unmask]" at May 12, 95 06:58:01 am
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I checked out the question of objections to Lewis's Narnia series
with the folks on the conservative Christian listserv I'm on.  This
listserv is mostly evangelical, fundamentalist, and all born-again,
so it has a lot of the very people one might expect to object to
occult symbols in literature.  None of them had objections to Narnia,
on the conservative Christian listserv I'm on.  This
listserv is mostly evangelical, fundamentalist, and all born-again,
so it has a lot of the very people one might expect to object to
occult symbols in literature.  They also tend to be big fans of C.S.
Lewis, both his Christian apologetics and his fiction.  None of them
had objections to Narnia, and most were surprised at the very idea.
A few thought they recalled Jack Chick (of the silly little Chick
comicbooks fame) denouncing Narnia, but even that was anecdotal.  So
there must not be much suspicion out there, or someone would have let
 Narnia, and most were surprised at the very idea.
A few thought they recalled Jack Chick (of the silly little Chick
comicbooks fame) denouncing Narnia, but even that was anecdotal.  So
there must not be much suspicion out there, or someone would have let
me know.

--Duffy

----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Duffy Tweedy, Instruction Librarian                   619 534-4711
UC San Diego Library 0175R                           fax: 534-7548
9500 Gilman Drive                          [log in to unmask]
La Jolla, CA 92093-0175
[log in to unmask]
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----------
"Unless expressly stated otherwise my comments do not necessarily
reflect the 
views or policies of the University of California or the UCSD
Libraries."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
"Be awake to all the dangers; stay firm in the faith; be brave and be
strong.  
Let everything you do be done in love."  --1 Cor 16:13 - 14
alifornia or the UCSD
Libraries."
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 15 18:51:30 1995
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From: katie auslander <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: i'm signing off
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 18:51:37 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Colleen Stumbaugh" at Apr 28, 95 08:38:56 am
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	i am ceasing my subscription, but here is one final comment.
	there have been good threads, and boring threads.  i think this list
has potential, if people would resist the nasty flame, and insult comments
that just started recently, and is one of my main reasons for logging off.
	in the long run, though i enjoyed the list.  enjoy discussing
science fiction all.
				bye,
				  Katie...:)

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Mon May 15 22:14:58 1995
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Date:         Mon, 15 May 95 22:12:19 EDT
From: @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]
Subject:      re: multiple reading
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id:   <950515.221434.EDT.CAMILLE@TEMPLEVM>

You know, thinking about stealing time from sleep to read, I wonder if
those of us who read obssessively in spite of overfull schedules do without
proper sleep in general?  I don't sleep much.  That doesn't mean I am one
of those geniuses who does fine on four hours a day--it means I'm sleepy
a lot, but can't sleep anyway.  Insomnia and rereading may go hand in hand--
I find that I am less likely to stay up all night if I already know the
way the book ends!

Camille

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 16 00:54:53 1995
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Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 00:54:52 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Reading speed

I seem to have gotten the go faster stripes. I timed myself re-reading
Hitchhiker's Guide. I read about 110 pages/hour for old material. I timed
myself reading the Windows '95 Resource Kit beta version and got about 
70/hour,but that was on a computer screen. I read Joseph Cambell's Hero with
a Thousand Faces for the first time also at about 60/h. (58 an hour) 
 I'm not posting to brag, but I noticed the difference between the Beta Resour
ce Kit and Campbell's work which I rate at about the same complexity. Just to
make sure it wasn't material type, I pulled out a book on Open Networking
with OSI and got 58/hour.
 I'm wondering if anyone else reads faster on a computer screen ? You all get
the question, cause you raised the topic. Also you are all avid readers.
Take care -Alexander

From cstu  Tue May 16 07:04:00 1995
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Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 07:04:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From [log in to unmask]: Militarism ... 
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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This message does eventually get back to science fiction, so as promised, 
I will pass it on even though it deals with militarism.  
Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]



Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 00:55:38 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Militarism: a way of organizing. You got Better ?

SORRY COLLEEN.

 Humans are scavengers, but scavengers are unsuccessful predators. Even the
most successful predators scavenge on occasion, we scavenge primarily. We can
only hunt because of our superior intelligence and tool using ability. 
 I point to our eyes as the primary reason for our predatory very
pre-history. The only reason to develop stereo vision is for hunting, it is
neccesary for good eye hand coordination.
 Enough about our ancestry, because you are right. Militarism is an idea born
of modern man, an intelligent tool using scavenger and forager.
 Why ? Because it is an efficient way to organize large numbers of personnell
and machinery, and it allows for a distinct command structure. As I said
before it is an extremely efficient structure with redundancy built in for
continued operation in survival situations. Particularly ones that require
teamwork and are under duress.
 There is a situation where military symbolism is used to what some would
call excess. This is where the military is portrayed as a glorious profession
and is given undue attention and essentially becomes the center of a
civilization. The reason this is usually done, politically, is for moral and
national pride. 
 Even when NASA made its bid for the moon it used highly military symbolism
to motivate public interest and effort. The astronauts were, to a man,
decorated military aviators and combat veterans. The public lost interest
about the same time NASA started sending the most qualified folks into space
instead of the most glamorous.
 Another organization that had extremely good results from militarism was the
Nazi party. The Third Reich was extremely efficient. They held a knife to the
worlds throat despite having a small amount of the world's resources. If not
for the overwhelming and untouchable resources of the United States, I
wouldn't be alive, and alot of you would be speaking German. I suppose it
helped that Hitler was mad, because if he made sensible decisions there are
clearly times when another decision would have turned the war back over to
the Reich. 
 The real problem I think is that there is a knee jerk reaction to Military
environment. A sort of military=bad attitude. This is probably because of my
last example, clearly bad. Well I'm sorry, but you've got to look at this
reasonably. If you have a better organization to use in SF then let's hear
it. I really want to see a realistic organization that performs better in
emergency team situations. Let's hear 'em. Otherwise remember that like any
tool Militarism can be used and misused. NASA used it. Hitler misused it.
Others no doubt fall right in between these extremes to muddy the situation.
 There is one final problem with militarism: You need an "enemy." Both of my
examples had one. Hitler pointed at the Jewish population and anyone else who
had interfered with the Fatherland. NASA used the Soviet Union. Hitler aimed
for revenge and complete victory. NASA aimed for the accomplishment of a goal
and some civil if not friendly competition.
 I believe a little competition is good, but militarism is a very aggressive
stature. Roddenberry's vision in Trek is of an organization that takes the
best qualities of the military and softens the blow of its aggressive
posture. The original series shows off some of this vision, with the neat
everyday usage of weapons that stunned rather than wounded and a Captain that
asked first on occasion before shooting. Kirk's character was limited in this
role because of network prejudices.
 Jean-Luc Picard in the Next Generation is more in line with Roddenberry's
original vision. Picard surrenders more often than he shoots. He disdains the
use of force, but he does know when he must use it.
 As far as the military dominating the Trek universe, well did any of you
ever serve your country overseas ? It isn't much fun and you spend most of
your time with your compatriots and you don't get a whole bunch of time to go
exploring the native richness. Sadly military life in the 24th century hasn't
changed much, especially not naval life.
 So long as Paramount chooses characters in a military setting, the Trek
universe will always be militaristic. Frankly I'd like to see a non-Starfleet
Star Trek series. There are a lot of untold stories because of the format. A
Romulan based StarTrek would interest a lot of folks, but would be VERY
military. From Paramounts point of view, a formula show has been developed
that sells ridiculously well. They have a lot to lose if they change th
format. Money. It ain't conducive to art is it.


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From: Ruth Ballam <[log in to unmask]>
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To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 9:19:02 GMT
Subject: That Bear
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
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I forget who asked about the B5 teddy bear but, Peter David says he got it from the 
Vermont Teddy Bear Company (it's a twenty inch bear).  :-)


-------------------------------------------
[log in to unmask]
Ruth Ballam,
Computing Service,
University of Plymouth,
-------------------------------------------
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The Apotheosis of the Hamburger
The Newsletter of the AFFN - number 8, May 1995


Liverpool Science Fiction Texts and Studies

The first three of these are now published.  Olaf Stapledon: Speaking for
the Future is the first full length biography of the Liverpool based
philosopher and writer and is written by Robert Crossley.  The second
volume, edited by David Seed, is Anticipations: Essays on Early Science
Fiction and Its Precursors.  It is available in both hardback and
paperback.  This is also the case for Utopian and Science Fiction by
Women: Worlds of Difference, edited by Jane L.  Donawerth and Carol A.
Kolmerten.  (Has anyone else noticed the way science is becoming an
adjective modifying the noun "fiction"  rather than part of the noun?  A
recent blurb biography labelled one critic as a writer on "modern and
science fiction"). 

Future volumes will include a volume of essays by Brian Aldiss, essays on
Chinese utopian literature and an anthology of stories predicting the
Great War.  The editorial address is Liverpool University Press, PO Box
147, Liverpool L69 3BX, UK and the general editor of the series is David
Seed, who of course also runs the M.A. in Science-Fiction Studies at
Liverpool University. 


Conferences

The following is a listing of the upcoming conferences which I know about
in the UK: corrections and additions are always welcome. 

26 - 28 May 1995 Virtual Futures 1995 Conference on cyberpunk,
	cyberculture and non-linearity, with an impressive list of invited
	speakers.  Contact Virtual Futures '95, Centre for Research in 
	Philosophy and Literature, University of Warwick, Coventry, CV4 7AL, 
	(phone [01203] 523523, ext.  2582), e-mail [log in to unmask]

17 - 19 July 1995 Charlotte Perkins Gilman: Optimist Reformer.  Author of
	Herland and much more, social theorist and feminist.  Details from Val
	Gough, Department of English, University of Liverpool, Liverpool, L69 
	3BX, UK. 

26 - 29 July 1995 The Time Machine: Past, Present and Future.  The H. G.
	Wells Society and the Eaton Program for Science Fiction and Fantasy
	Studies are marking the centenary of the publication of H. G. Wells's
	classic The Time Machine with an international symposium at Imperial
	College, London.  Speakers include Brian Aldiss, Michael Foot, Doris
	Lessing and Elaine Showalter.  Details from Professor Patrick Parrinder,
	82 Hillfield Avenue, Crouch End, London, N8 7DN, UK [Phone (0181)
	3406355]. 

24 - 25 November 1995 Postfaction: The Step Beyond Postmodernism and Its
	Fiction "postmodernist and anti-realist fiction have striven to 
	carry out the problematization of fact and fiction . . . Does such 
	fiction accomplish anything beyond this problematization? Postfaction 
	provides a forum for the treatment of this question by exploring three 
	characteristic topoi: the attempt to problematize traditional 
	notions of time and history; the attempt to foreground the acts of 
	writing and discursive practice in the creation and interpretation of 
	texts;  and the reconsideration of language in light of the notions of 
	entropy and apocalypse in order to expose language as an impure 
	medium of communication."  Send all papers to Postfaction, Centre for 
	Research in Philosophy and Literature, University of Warwick, Coventry 
	CV4 7AL, England, E-mail: [log in to unmask] by July 31, 
	1995. 

11 - 13 July 1996 Speaking Science Fiction.  Conference on sf, and its
	dialogues with other disciplines, with other forms and within the mode
	itself.  Write to: Andy Sawyer c/o Special Collections, Sydney Jones
	Library, University of Liverpool, P. O. Box 123, Liverpool, L69 3DA, 
	UK. 

******************************************************************************

The small print: The Apotheosis of the Hamburger is the newsletter of the
Academic Fantastic Fiction Network and is edited by Andy Butler who can be
contacted via English Department, Hull University, Hull, HU6 7RX, UK Phone
(01482) 472922 (after 6 pm, and please leave name and number if I'm not
there).  E-Mail: [log in to unmask] Copies of this newsletter
are available via e-mail.  Please feel free to copy and distribute to
interested parties.  Respect due: Mark Bould, Rosemary Gray, James Kneale,
Andy Sawyer.  "Hamburgers . . . have been aestheticized to such a point of
frenzy and hysteria that the McDonald's hamburger has actually vanished
into its own sign. Just watch the TV commercials." 

******************************************************************************

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 16 08:59:55 1995
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Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 09:00:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Sandra Kisner" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: [log in to unmask]
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: introduction of the Daleks to Dr Who

> Fair enough.  Personally I can't remember which bits of Dr Who Nation
> wrote, except that I'm reasonably sure he wrote (very likely among
> others) the bits introducing the Daleks which must have been way, way,
> before the Baker era (Hartnell or Troughton, surely...)
> Dave

    It was very early Hartnell, I believe the second story, that the
Daleks were introduced.  Watchers of Blakes 7 might be interested in
the teleport/communications wristbands used in that story.

Sandra Kisner
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 16 11:36:38 1995
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Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 10:36:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: That Bear
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Does Vermont Teddy Bear Co. have a mailing address where we can order the 
bear, or at least a catalog?


GLW
(who's "bear-ry interested"!)
;D


On Tue, 16 May 1995, Ruth Ballam wrote:

> I forget who asked about the B5 teddy bear but, Peter David says he got it from the 
> Vermont Teddy Bear Company (it's a twenty inch bear).  :-)
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------
> [log in to unmask]
> Ruth Ballam,
> Computing Service,
> University of Plymouth,
> -------------------------------------------
> 
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 16 11:45:48 1995
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Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 17:43:33 +0200 (METDST)
From: Paolo Piccioni <[log in to unmask]>
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Worst SF book
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Hi all!

I've got for you a new thread:
What is in your opinion the worst SF book ever released?
Have you got any SF books in your bookshelves that you never be able to read?

I don't want to condemn any author, of course! My questions 
is for those books that have some difficult language passages, 
poor or copied ideas and awful finals. 

                   |~~_________________________
            /___ __| | All men are equal, but  |       Paolo Piccioni
           |__| |  | | someone is more equal   |   
           |    |  | | than others....         |   [log in to unmask]
           '-()-'--'-'-()()--------------()()--'


From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 16 13:35:17 1995
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Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 13:35:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: That Bear
To: [log in to unmask]
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X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]"
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Here's the address:
   Vermont Teddy Bear Company
   2031 Shelburne Road
   Shelburne, VT  05482

Telephone: 802-985-3001

Joyce

[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 16 13:36:30 1995
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From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: That Bear


> Does Vermont Teddy Bear Co. have a mailing address where we can order the 
> bear, or at least a catalog?

They have an 800 number: 1-800-829-BEAR.  I've seen their catalogue,
it's totally adorable, and they will dress up a bear anyway you like,
they'll even make custom outfits (I'm sure the B5 bear was a custom
job).

Marina Frants
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 16 13:44:50 1995
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Date: Tue, 16 May 95 13:39:25 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Worst SF books

>I've got for you a new thread:
>What is in your opinion the worst SF book ever released?

I'm probibly going to get stoned for this one, but.....

Only one book comes to mind.  This book I tried to suffer through a couple
of times, but found the characterization too soupy, the story too boring,
and I never actually read the whole thing.  There comes a point in building
characters within a story that I just get too much information from the
author, and it just bogs the whole story down.

That book was "Fear No Evil" by Heinlein

(running for cover)


     Later,

Robert D. Bair
IBM Charlotte     RDBAIR at CLTVM1
CSP Test Engineering Support
[log in to unmask]
AR: WB3AHC, 1st Class FCC: P1-3-17298, Tripoli: #2253, NAR: #60163

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 16 14:00:52 1995
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Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 14:00:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: BERARD SYLVIE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Left Hand
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On Tue, 9 May 1995, Signifying Nothing wrote:

> I am taking a course this semester in "The Bible and Literature." Our 
> final paper assignment is to write on the connections/relationship 
> between the Bible and a literary work of our choice. I've decided to 
> do _Left_Hand_of_Darkness_ and to write, at least in part, about the 
> messianic connections between Genly Ai and Jesus, both strangers in 
> strange lands. I welcome any suggestions or ideas or references you 
> would care to share.
> Interestingly, when the professor handed out a list of which 
> classmates are doing what works, I noticed four different people are 
> doing the Chronicles of Narnia, three are doing _The_Handmaid's_Tale_ 
> (is that considered sf in this forum?) and one is doing the work I 
> originally considered, Heinlein's _Job._

I hope this is not too sensitive an answer.
I think this is to be included to something I would call the 'mythic 
temptation' in SF. If SF uses Greek/Latin, Celtic, etc. myths, why 
wouldn't it use the rich Judeo-Christian mythology (of course, some may 
not agree that THIS is mythology)?

Ciao,

Sylvie Berard
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 16 14:13:50 1995
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Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 14:13:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: BERARD SYLVIE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF, Literature, Theory (fwd)
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On Thu, 4 May 1995, John J. Ronald wrote:

> Those SF works that can make this leap and make those allusions,
> those references convincingly perhaps (to my mind) will have
> a much easier time gaining acceptance than those that do
> not.  I guess because, although mainstream literature creates
> fictional worlds as well, those fictional worlds are modeled
> after THIS one, and can thusly be more easily linked together
> than can SF works that have to create entire universes with
> their own special natural laws, histories, and realities.
> Having Spock read the Star Wars trilogy isn't going to
> work, but having him read Plato (and then comment how
> this relates to some Vulcan philosopher)...this DOES work.
> SF works, if written by different authors, can't seem to
> refer to each other nearly as easily as more mainstream
> literature is capable of doing.  SF texts frequently
> HAVE to stand alone (or at least, more alone) than
> mainstream literature does, meaning SF has quite an
> uphill fight for acceptance into the literary canon.
> I find it to be a rather innovative, revolutionary genre
> that deserves consideration by Academics sheerly on
> the basis of its own merits, but this is tough for
> many more conservative, more traditional academics to
> accept.

This problematic leads me to another question. What do you think of those 
SF works where authors deliberately create fake intertextuality 
this still a way to back up the fiction/discourse/referent on a cultural 
(future, potential) background? 

Ciao,

Sylvie Berard
[log in to unmask]

From cstu  Tue May 16 14:42:47 1995
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Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 14:42:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Worst SF Books: Extension
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Let's take this thread deeper; what is the criteria of a good science 
fiction book?  Is it different from a standard novel and if so, in what 
ways?  What about fantasy, and does a good fantasy have different 
criteria than a good science fiction story?  
Colleen
_________________________________________________________________________
Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian    [log in to unmask]
Library of Congress                                  (202) 707-4132
Washington, DC 20540-4861                       FAX: (202) 707-4142
These opinions are mine, Mine MINE!       
__________________________________________________________________________




From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 16 14:46:27 1995
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From: BERARD SYLVIE <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Why reread books?
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Fri, 12 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> I feel so much better now knowing someone out here reads as slow as I do.  I'm
> in that 50 pages per hour range as well, and while it slows my consumption 
> rate, I really do enjoy books much more that way.

I French I read very fast (though I cannot say how fast). Part of my
pleasure as a reader is to read a book in 1-2 days. I have to forget the
real world when I read, and the only way is to keep on reading until the
book is finished. When a book takes me to long to read (i.e. 1 week),
fortunately this only happens when I don't really like it, I just lose all
interest. 

This is, I think, part of the reason why I don't have the same pleasure 
when I read English books in their original version. I know that I lose 
some of the flavour when I read a translation, but I can't help losing some 
of my interest when I need to read slowly (and in English, I do read slowly).
Guess what I do for my Ph.D.? Sometimes I first read the translation
(when the book is translated in French) to get all the pleasure and then I 
read the original version to get the 'texture'. Am I sick, doctor?

Ciao,

Sylvie Berard
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 16 18:22:02 1995
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Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 18:21:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Worst SF book
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask] 

Poor or copied ideas?

Weak Plot?

Any novel with Gentry Lee's name on it, but the first one (whose title 
escapes me) was the absolute worst.

Yes, it was even worse than _The_Adolescence_of_PI_ (which I actually 
threw away:  the only time I have ever done so, as the 7,342 books in my 
library tend to prove).

Yes, it was worse than the miserably unimaginative exercises Pournelle 
and Niven foist upon the world every year. 

Yes, it was worse than the "experiments" Heinlein had published in his 
last doddering years.

And yes, it was so bad that I only managed to read the first chapters, 
and then promptly returned it to the library in disgust.

Au revoir!


From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 16 18:58:00 1995
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Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 15:55:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: Worst SF Books: Extension

Hi, all!

If I may add another 2 cents: beyond evaluating the merits of the story,
what was it about the whole of the SF/F novel that made it the "worst"?

By way of example: during a fantasy lit class, we were assigned "Huon of the
Horn" by Andre Norton.  The editing was so bad, what with misspellings and
gramatical errors that the entire class decided that the book was not worth
our time to read.  This decision had nothing to do with the author, or with
the actual content of the story, it's just that it was poorly constructed
as a published piece, so much so, that it destroyed the pleasure of the
read.  To this day I do not remember the story, and because my only copy
is the "published piece", I will not go back and try to reread.

Julie
[log in to unmask]
She who keeps EVERYTHING

In message Tue, 16 May 1995 14:50:10 -0400,
  Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>  writes:

> Let's take this thread deeper; what is the criteria of a good science
> fiction book?  Is it different from a standard novel and if so, in what
> ways?  What about fantasy, and does a good fantasy have different
> criteria than a good science fiction story?
> Colleen
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian    [log in to unmask]
> Library of Congress                                  (202) 707-4132
> Washington, DC 20540-4861                       FAX: (202) 707-4142
> These opinions are mine, Mine MINE!
> __________________________________________________________________________
>

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 16 19:57:50 1995
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Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 20:58:29 -0300 (ADT)
From: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Worst SF books
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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You can't possibly think _Fear No Evil_ is worse than _To Sail Beyond the 
Sunset_, can you?  ;-)  (now running too) 

*****************************************************************
patricia monk (dr)                              [log in to unmask]
                   "just visiting this planet"
*****************************************************************
On Tue, 16 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:
> I'm probibly going to get stoned for this one, but.....
> Only one book comes to mind.  This book I tried to suffer through a couple
> of times, but found the characterization too soupy, the story too boring,
> and I never actually read the whole thing.  There comes a point in building
> characters within a story that I just get too much information from the
> author, and it just bogs the whole story down.
> That book was "Fear No Evil" by Heinlein       (running for cover)

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 16 23:12:57 1995
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From: [log in to unmask] (Elena Barrantes)
Message-Id: <9505170301.AA07133@cariari>
Subject: Re: Worst SF books
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 21:01:11 -0600 (CST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "[log in to unmask]" at May 16, 95 02:25:08 pm
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Hello,
   about worst SF books...

> 
> That book was "Fear No Evil" by Heinlein
> 
I must agree, and the worst part is I usually like Heinlein (at least his
early work).
   
  I tried, really I tried (I couldn't finish it).
  
  Anthony R. Sanchez
  San Jose, Costa Rica.
  

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 16 23:21:59 1995
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From: [log in to unmask] (Elena Barrantes)
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Subject: Re: multiple reading
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 21:10:21 -0600 (CST)
In-Reply-To:   <950515.221434.EDT.CAMILLE@TEMPLEVM> from "@loc.gov, @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]" at May 16, 95 06:53:08 am
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   About finding reading time...

   I usually sleep well, and find time to read in the day, maybe on the bus
to work or while my PC is compiling.  I don't waste free time, but hardly
ever lose any sleep.
  But I have seen people that read at night, especially when they have a
tight schedule or a deadline to meet.  I have always wondered about this,
seeing that the person is hysterical because of the little time he has left,
but insists in reading until the wee hours an SF novel.
  Could it not be an escape valve?  It would be interesting to measure the
quality of their work if they didn't have this temporary escape, and SF
fills this need very well.
   

  Anthony R. Sanchez
  San Jose, Costa Rica.

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 17 00:44:26 1995
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Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 21:44:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fran Skene <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Worst SF books
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On Tue, 16 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> >I've got for you a new thread:
> >What is in your opinion the worst SF book ever released?
> 
> Only one book comes to mind.  This book I tried to suffer through a couple
> of times, but found the characterization too soupy, the story too boring,
> and I never actually read the whole thing.  There comes a point in building
> characters within a story that I just get too much information from the
> author, and it just bogs the whole story down.
> 
> That book was "Fear No Evil" by Heinlein

***
I had a stronger reaction to that, namely that it was sexual fantasies of 
a middle-aged writer who knew that everything he wrote would be bought.  
I didn't finish either, and stopped reading Heinlein at that point.  A 
year or two ago, I tried again (Friday, I think), and stopped after a 
chapter or so.

I liked Robert Heinlein (in 1977, he phoned long distance to give regrets 
about not attending a con I was associated with, and stayed on the phone 
for an hour - even asking about my cats) but he ran afoul of publishers 
no longer expecting his best.  It reminds you that publishers are not in 
business to publish Good Writing, unless that also coincides with 
predicted profits.

Cheers,   Fran


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fran Skene                                      a gofer on the
[log in to unmask]                                electronic cowpath....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------



From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 17 03:06:36 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Sci-fi and proud of it!

Well said, and as long as your BUYING the books you can call them anything
you want.  I won't be offended at all.(S)  (I never  actually was thinking
proper communications is more important than etiquette.)  Joe Walsh had the
right idea when he put out a record and titled it, "You bought it.  You name
it."  Any other apologies from any other elitist snobs?(g)  Just to make a
point here are some abbreviations I use every day see if you can guess what
they mean.  If you do good for you if not maybe we can see two sides to this
coin and get on with life.  MT's, AVC, VMS, COW, MTE, and SF( no it doesn't
mean science fiction in this respect)  If you guess wrong I won't be offended
but probably 90% of my associates will.  You first Mike?

Darkstar
(and feeling very dark indeed)


From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 17 04:37:00 1995
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From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Worst SF books
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 ->
 -> I'm probibly going to get stoned for this one, but.....
 ->
 -> That book was "Fear No Evil" by Heinlein
 ->
 -> (running for cover)
 ->
Hope there's shelter for two.
Though not THE worst FNE does rate amongst the books that I dislike and have 
kept.  I have read it several times, usually after reading some criticism of 
Heinlein, to try and get some verve out of it, but so far to no avail.  The 
reason for this is that much of his work I really do love, "Number of the 
Beast", and even , (donning flak jacket), "Glory Road" for instance.

As to my vote for THE worst, I can't recall.  If I read a bought book that 
is naff I just give/throw/sell it away and forget about it.

So what does make a good sci-fi, (what the hell, I'm still under cover), 
story.  For me, if the idea grabs me, anything else, such as good character 
developement and other aspects of good story writing is just a bonus:  David 
Brin's "Practice Effect" and A E Van Vogt's "The Silkie" are good examples.
On the other hand stories with "life", an atmosphere, a whole invisible 
unmentioned background are probably the ones I have the highest regard for - 
and here Ray Bradbury is the outstanding light on my bookshelf.
Fantasy is different, (get away!), and here I have to be taken by one or 
more characters pretty quickly to continue.  The Dragon books are a good 
example here. Lessa immediately appealed as did Menoly later on and to a 
lesser extent Jaxom, but I did find that the aspects of the stories not 
directly involving the characters I was interested in were dull.  Valley Of 
The Horses is like that, I've read it three times but still only pay 
attention to every other chapter.  Same goes for Lord of the Rings when the 
company splits.
Too much rambling.  I'll lie quiet a while and see if I can break cover 
safely later.

markw - I do not like green eggs and ham

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 17 05:22:28 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: Serge Berezhnoy <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Snails and sf (Re: 1995 Russian SF Awards)
Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 13:20:09 +0400


M.L. Davis <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

 >> 1995 BRONZE SNAIL AWARD
 >> Presenting annualy for the best publications of the previous
 >> year by Boris Strugatsky personaly.

 > Um,... I've been sitting here trying desperately to determine
 > just what a bronze snail a) is and b) has to do with sf.  Hugos
 > and nebulas and suchlike I think I've got covered, but bronze
 > snails ;)?  Would you care to let us in on the origin/meaning
 > behind this award?

Xcuse me for I didn't do it in the first message.

What snails do with sf, eh?

Well, one of the best novel of A. & B.Strugatsky has a title _Snale on the 
Slope_, and has a classic hokku of Isa in epigraph. I can't translate it into 
English in its original form and beauty (not only because I know it only in 
Russian translation ;) ), but in the very first iteration it'll be so: "Snail 
slowly crawl up on the slope of the Fuji -- up to the top of the mountain".

Snail in the award title is a metaphoric simbol of a hard writer's labor must 
be awarded. And the Bronze Snail Award trophy is a bronze statute of a snail on 
the rock.

Serge V. Berezhnoy
St.Petersburg, Russia
[log in to unmask]

--- GoldED 2.50.Beta5+
 * Origin: Camelot-89. Voice call (812)-310-6007 (2:5030/207.2)




From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 17 06:19:23 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: SF-LIT list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Journal of the Fantastic in the Arts
Date: Wed, 17 May 95 11:06:00 BST
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I've been wondering about the availability of this US journal.  I believe 
it's quarterly (or, at least, that it used to be).  I'm interested in 
finding out whether it's still published and whether back-issues are 
available.  I have the address Orion Publishing, 3959 Route 31, Suite 210, 
Liverpool NY.  I'd like to know the following, if anyone is able to tell 
me...

1)   Is the thing still published?

2)   Is this still the right snail-mail address?

3)   Is there now an e-mail address to go with it, where I can make a query?

4)   Is there (best of all, but I'd like to know the answer to the others 
even if this information is available) a distribution address (preferably 
including e-mail) for the journal in the UK?

Surely someone must have heard of this...!?

          Dave

[log in to unmask]  (Sometimes I remember!)

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 17 07:47:51 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Worst SF book
Date: Wed, 17 May 95 12:45:00 BST
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>Poor or copied ideas?
>
>Weak Plot?
>
>Any novel with Gentry Lee's name on it, but the first one (whose title
>escapes me) was the absolute worst.
>
>Yes, it was even worse than _The_Adolescence_of_PI_ (which I actually
>threw away:  the only time I have ever done so, as the 7,342 books in my
>library tend to prove).
>
>Yes, it was worse than the miserably unimaginative exercises Pournelle
>and Niven foist upon the world every year.


I dunno - I have to say that The Legacy of Heorot was the one that came to 
my mind when these criteria came up.  Borrowed ideas, strung together by, 
well, a string really - no plot to speak of.  Absolute failure to live up to 
 - nay, to have anything whatever to do with - its pompously portentous 
title, though it seems to me that the survivalists towards whom it seems to 
be aimed might not be in a position to notice this.  (There must be /some/ 
reason why its readership hasn't risen up to complain about the con job....) 
 Maybe the same goes for the authors, who can tell? Characters you could 
slide under a doormat and be glad they were out of sight.  Ach, it's 
rubbish.

Then again, I'm sure I've seen at least one person here invoking it as a 
genuinely fine example of something or other, so this is my final message 
before joining the massed and swelling ranks of those dashing maniacally for 
cover....

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 17 10:10:06 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Worst Book

     David Hipple wrote:
     "I dunno - I have to say that The Legacy of Heorot was the one that 
     came to my mind when these criteria came up.  Borrowed ideas, strung 
     together by, well, a string really - no plot to speak of...."
     [snip]
     
     Just for the record, this reader enjoyed being scared by "The Legacy 
     of Heorot" (how is that pronounced, anyway?) very much, as did a 
     somewhat discerning acquaintance of mine, to whom I lent the book 
     (that's at least two fans).  Granted, the plot and characters are 
     nothing exceptional, but I think Legacy is a solid example of SF 
     horror -- probably on the same level as the movie "Predator," starring 
     Ahnold, but perhaps not as good as some of Stephen King's books.
     
     Andy McCann


From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 17 10:31:32 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Cover Art Blues, Terry Nation, Satanic Narnia

Hello, Mike. You said (in part):

>>At the same time, here's what I -can't- do:

(#1 deleted)

2. Choose my cover artist<<

Pardon me while I gape a second, then remember a few authors whose
credentials are at least as strong as yours who obviously don't receive that
perk, either. Alan Dean Foster comes to mind. I DO hope you at least get them
to give the artist an accurate description of the scene they want depicted? I
will never forget the book I read (whose title escapes me) wherein the title
character was black/Cherokee and the cover art showed him as a Northern
European blond. Things must be improving, though, at least in some small way
with some people. The covers for David Weber's "Honor Harrington" series have
been quite accurate and well-done.

*****

Dave, while I will sometimes argue with success, I won't do it very
assiduously. Mr. Nation has my respect, even if I find his writing boring.
And Colin Baker went down as the least popular Doctor of all seven. Too much
of a pompous git until the last few episodes of the single-season storyline
"Trial of a Time Lord." By then it was too late.

*****

The majority of the protests against The Chronicles of Narnia were lodged
when it was first released several decades ago. Lewis' apologetics were
similary treated. I would not expect modern conservatives to feel antipathy
for his works, with Jack Chick being incapable of seeing anything that is not
explicitly (in his mind) biblical as being harmful. His analyses of
role-playing games and the rock music industry are studies in assumptive
"literature." It only points up the truism that the blasphemy of an earlier
age is the dogma of the next. Narnia is a small example. Time travel in
fiction is a larger one. It's even being used in a specific line of Harlequin
romance novels these days. Nasty but true.

-Brenda

From shal  Wed May 17 12:00:21 1995
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From: "Stephanie A. Hall" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit listserv <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: The good, the bad, and the ugly
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My vote for the worst books are the last books "by" L Ron Hubbard.  These 
were allegedly compiled by the executors of his estate and other interested 
parties from pieces of published and unpublished work after his death.  
Their only saving grace is that portions of them are hysterically 
funny -- unintentionally so.

To be readable at all a book should, at the very least, have an author!

The books I enjoy have interesting characters and plots. The science of 
the science fiction has to be worked into the story -- not a story worked 
around the science.  First of all good science fiction should be good 
fiction.

Plausibility is important -- even if the scientific possibilities are 
stretched a bit, at least they should be made believable. I do become 
annoyed when the astronomy or engineering is gotten right but the biology, 
anthropology, or pscychology has obvious errors. Science fiction should 
include all the sciences. That's a tall order sometimes; no author is 
an expert on everything. But the best ones do their homework.  

Stephanie

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist           The Library of Congress
American Folklife Center               preserves and houses
Library of Congress                    countless ideas and opinions.
Washington, DC 20540-8100              Those expressed here 
[log in to unmask]                           are my own.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 17 12:34:59 1995
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From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Legacy
Date: Wed, 17 May 95 17:34:00 UTC
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 ->
 ->      Just for the record, this reader enjoyed being scared by "The Legacy 

 ->      of Heorot"
 ->

Me too.  The first time I read it I found it hard to put down and so must 
rate at least in my top 100.  But what do I know, I only buy, read, collect 
and (very) occasionally write the stuff, I never took a degree in it.

markw - who has a complete collection of Vortex science fiction magazine.

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 17 13:37:57 1995
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Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 12:37:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: That Bear
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Thanks from two teddy bear lovers!


Gary & Teri
:D


On Tue, 16 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Here's the address:
>    Vermont Teddy Bear Company
>    2031 Shelburne Road
>    Shelburne, VT  05482
> 
> Telephone: 802-985-3001
> 
> Joyce
> 
> [log in to unmask]
> 
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 17 13:47:18 1995
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From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: From Mark Woolrich: RE: Worst SF books
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Have to say *I* didn't like NUMBER OF THE BEAST either:  too many 
whimsical incestuous fantasies, too much dialogue AND monologues which 
went nowhere, AND not a good Heinlein adventure story at that.  But I 
*did* think FRIDAY was a much better book.

Anyway, give me RAH's THE PAST THROUGH TOMORROW (Future History 
anthology) anytime, and I'll re-read it through and through!


Gary


On Wed, 17 May 1995, Colleen Stumbaugh wrote:

> This one got caught in a name glitch.  Sorry.
> Colleen
> Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
> [log in to unmask]
> 
> 
> 
> From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: RE: Worst SF books
> Date: Wed, 17 May 95 09:36:00 UTC
> 
> 
>  ->
>  -> I'm probibly going to get stoned for this one, but.....
>  ->
>  -> That book was "Fear No Evil" by Heinlein
>  ->
>  -> (running for cover)
>  ->
> Hope there's shelter for two.
> Though not THE worst FNE does rate amongst the books that I dislike and have 
> kept.  I have read it several times, usually after reading some criticism of 
> Heinlein, to try and get some verve out of it, but so far to no avail.  The 
> reason for this is that much of his work I really do love, "Number of the 
> Beast", and even , (donning flak jacket), "Glory Road" for instance.
> 
> As to my vote for THE worst, I can't recall.  If I read a bought book that 
> is naff I just give/throw/sell it away and forget about it.
> 
> So what does make a good sci-fi, (what the hell, I'm still under cover), 
> story.  For me, if the idea grabs me, anything else, such as good character 
> developement and other aspects of good story writing is just a bonus:  David 
> Brin's "Practice Effect" and A E Van Vogt's "The Silkie" are good examples.
> On the other hand stories with "life", an atmosphere, a whole invisible 
> unmentioned background are probably the ones I have the highest regard for - 
> and here Ray Bradbury is the outstanding light on my bookshelf.
> Fantasy is different, (get away!), and here I have to be taken by one or 
> more characters pretty quickly to continue.  The Dragon books are a good 
> example here. Lessa immediately appealed as did Menoly later on and to a 
> lesser extent Jaxom, but I did find that the aspects of the stories not 
> directly involving the characters I was interested in were dull.  Valley Of 
> The Horses is like that, I've read it three times but still only pay 
> attention to every other chapter.  Same goes for Lord of the Rings when the 
> company splits.
> Too much rambling.  I'll lie quiet a while and see if I can break cover 
> safely later.
> 
> markw - I do not like green eggs and ham
> 
> 
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 17 15:22:52 1995
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Mack Lundy" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Worst SF - Fritz Leibers The Wanderer
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wed, 17 May 95 15:24:53 PDT
Encoding:  38 TEXT , 4 TEXT 

I just finished listening to Fritz Leiber' The Wanderer on tape (Recorded
Books).  While I don't think it was the absolute worst SF that I have
experienced, and there were several plot complications that were interesting,
it still irritated me.  The only reason I stuck with it was that it was the
only tape I had with me while driving.

If you haven't read the book, the basic plot has a planet sized body
appearing behind the moon, begins "eating" the moon, and the effects  on the
earth of the loss of the moon combined with the  presence of a new body with
the same mass as the earth.

What didn't I like about it:

1.  I thought it was bloated.  There were at least seven subplots that I
thought did not contribute to the overall story.  I would rather have seen
the space given to the three major plot lines or left out entirely.

2.  I thought most of the descriptions were in the purple range of the spectrum.

3.  Unless a sequel is planned, I thought the ending was weak.  The book
just sort of ended.

4.  The featured alien is given earth creature characteristics (as well as
earth human female characteristics) based on physical appearance.  If it
looks like a cat it must act like a cat even if it did evolve who knows how
long ago and how far away.

5.  I couldn't warm up to any of the characters.  I didn't care what hapened
to any of them.

On the positive side, I did think the basic concept was interesting and the
description of the nature of galactic civilization had a neat twist.

If anyone has a different take on this book I would be interested in hearing
it.

Mack
[log in to unmask]

Mack A. Lundy III                                    [log in to unmask]
Library Systems Manager, Swem Library
College of William and Mary, Williamsburg, VA
VOICE:  (804) 221-3114      FAX:  (804) 221-3088

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 17 15:29:57 1995
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From: "John J. Ronald" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Worst SF books
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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The worst SF book I have come across was a selection of short
stories by Kim Stanley Robinson, which I bought on a lark
in Canterbury.  Let me clarify this by also saying the book
did contain ONE and ONLY one story that was a perfect Gem,
a story I truly loved and heap praise on for its aesthetics
and creativity.  That story was "The Blind Geometer", probably
K.S. Robinson's best story ever.  But the other stories in
the mini-anthology.....well, they sucked.  Bad.  They rambled,
they made no sense, they had no discernable plot.  They reminded
me of the way a 4 year old tells stories...I eventually threw 
the book away in disgust.  I left it lying on a park bench in
Weimar, Germany hoping maybe someone else would find it and
get more enjoyment out of it than I did.  What a waste of british
paper and currency.  I wish I had selected another book instead.

--John Ronald
	Rice University


From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 17 17:12:19 1995
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Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 17:12:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Cover Art Blues, Terry Nation, Satanic Narnia
To: [log in to unmask]
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Sometimes cover art can be terribly frustrating. For example: while
I couldn't choose my cover artist, Tor always tried to accomodate me.
I got Michael Whelan for 3 of my first 5 Tor books, and Boris Vallejo
for another. Then Whelan told them he couldn't make the deadline for
SECOND CONTACT, so they ran a generic piece of spaceship art. And since
I didn't have a Whelan cover, and the book was not my most ambitious
work (it was a "getaway" contract filler), they cut my print run by
maybe 45,000 paperbacks. Well, I've been around a long time, and the
book got a fine review from the NY Daily News, and when the dust had
cleared it sold as many copies as I usually sold...but the sell-through
percentage was up around the 80% mark because of the lowered print run.
 
Well, the sales department got one look at that 80% figure, and
came up with the pronouncement: Resnick sells 60% with Whelan and Boris,
and 80% with spaceships. From that day to this, I've never had anytthing
onmy Tor covers (even on BULLY!, which is set in Africa in 1910) except
spaceships. Abd I had to move half my output to Ace, Warner's and
Bantam to get "name" artists.

Go sell 80% of your print run. See what it gets you. <g>

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 17 17:17:10 1995
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Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 17:17:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Sci-fi and proud of it!
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Me not at all, Darkstar. Guessing games with offensive terms aren't
to my liking.

- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 17 17:34:45 1995
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Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 17:34:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: HOMer Awards
To: [log in to unmask]
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The results of the 5th Annual HOMer Awards, voted on by the
CompuServe Science Fiction/Literature Membership:

Novel: END OF AN ERA, by Robert Sawyer

Novella: "Seven Views of Olduvai Gorge", by Mike Resnick

Novelette: "The Martian Child", by David Gerrold

Short story: "None So Blind", by Joe Haldeman




From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 17 17:38:16 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE:From [log in to unmask]: Militarism

I just wanted to say that I was responding to the following from Stephanie
Hall. It must have been accidentally cut when I sent it. More likely I forgot
to put it in. The whole message follows:

>Dear, oh dear, cultural evolution again: the great bugaboo of 19th
>century 
>science and still alive and well in science fiction.  _Star Trek_ in 
>particular does perpetuate the idea.  I guess the idea that space
>travel 
>is a necessary outcome of evolution has a certain romance. As does
>the 
>companion idea that we will all have to learn to live in peace in
>order 
>to "evolve" into space faring people.  Who knows? maybe wishing it so
>may
>make it so -- but they are not concepts supported by anthropology.
>
>Those who believe we are evolving away from our aggressive past often
>call
>upon the idea that "we are preditors" and "were always warlike."
>False 
>assumptions:  
>
>Look at your teeth and fingernails and compare them to the teeth and
>claws 
>of real preditors.  We are scavengers who occasionally predate.
>That's why 
>we invented grocery stores.  
>
>Contrary to social-evolutionist's beliefs, there have been many
>cultures 
>that did not practice warfare -- some are still with us today (the
>Hopi 
>are a well-known example).  War is not a necessary condition of
>mankind. 
>
>The American Anthropolgical Association has long fought the outdated 
>idea of human aggression as inevitable. The idea endangers cultural 
>relations between peoples, is used to justify inappropriate foreign 
>policies, imperialism, wars, etc.  They have issued a formal
>statement 
>that the anthropological evidence does not support the idea that
>humans 
>are necessarily aggressive.
>
>Why is it that folks are always decrying SF stories that have errors
>in 
>physical or engineering science, but accept SF that perpetuates
>outdated 
>ideas or utter hogwash in their presentation of social science?  
>I have enjoyed Trek as much as anyone. But when the Captain (pick
>your 
>favorite) starts talking about how an alien "planetary culture" may 
>eventually "evolve" past their "warlike period" to the point where
>they 
>can "join the Federation" it is time to reach for the remote.  
>
>
>Stephanie
>
>
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist           The Library of Congress


From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 17 17:38:23 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: multiple reading & sleep

In a message dated 95-05-16 06:56:37 EDT,Cammille wrote:

>You know, thinking about stealing time from sleep to read, I wonder
>if
>those of us who read obssessively in spite of overfull schedules do
>without
>proper sleep in general?

 Well, I sometimes do without too Camille. It is kind of scary to me because
I have an erratic sleep schedule as it is, due to my jobs. (Hockey and
Computer Consulting.) There have been a number of studies that say these
types of sleep habits are BAD. (If you don't get the good-bad thing see
Eegon.) My coaches are upset by my sleep and want me to quit consulting. I
tell them to pay me, but from a health standpoint they are right.
 The way I deal is to take as many naps as I can, wherever I can, an idea I
took from my cat. (She seems to be fine.) I can often only set aside 2 or 3
hours for sleep, but if I try I can get another hour or two at least napping
15-30min a shot.
 There is a problem with napping though, not enough time for REM or dream
sleep. I have to set aside at least two nights a week that I sleep eight
hours or else I get real mean. (Even for a hockey player.) 
 So does anyone else have this trouble, and how do you deal with it. 
 The things we do for our SF.
 Take care -Alexander


From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 17 17:38:25 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject:  RE: Worst SF books

 Well if there can be a judge for the worst SF I must be it. I liked Fear No
Evil and Friday. I seem to be able to enjoy anything, well almost. 
 I am stubborn, and once I decide to read something, it gets read PERIOD.
That isn't a smart policy.
 For the Worst SF ever I nominate: Battlefield Earth By  L. RON HUBBARD. This
book could have been editied to half its length without losing a thing, and
maybe gaining readability by normal humans. ( I must be a mutant.) 
 For the worst series I nominate that overgrown L. RON HUBBARD series
"Invasion Earth" or some such. Again I simply decided to read this and
stubborness carried me through. I wish it hadn't.
 There is a thread of course, which makes me wonder why I followed this
author, was it some subconscious form of self abasement ?
  I have more. A book I mentioned once before in this forum. Liege Killer, by
Christopher Hinz. This book has a promising idea -a genetically engineered
"race" of asassins with two bodies. That's about where it ends though. The
book had BAAD editing. The book had awful characters, and weird technology,
but the one idea interested me alot. Unfortunately it was encased in pure
drivel.

 Sorry, please don't read those books. Save Yourselves.
 -Alexander
From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 17 18:50:22 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Worst Book

i recently read Xenocide by Orson Scott Card, and although i did not feel it
was the worst book, i did feel that it was the biggest let-down of a book
that ive had in a long time.  after ender's game and speaker for the dead i
was expecting the best and he did not bring together well at all.  i felt
that he faked his way out of all the problems.  does anyone else agree with
me on that.
                                             Mike Barr
P.S.  i still love almost every other book by OSC.

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 17 18:50:22 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Worst Book

i recently read Xenocide by Orson Scott Card, and although i did not feel it
was the worst book, i did feel that it was the biggest let-down of a book
that ive had in a long time.  after ender's game and speaker for the dead i
was expecting the best and he did not bring together well at all.  i felt
that he faked his way out of all the problems.  does anyone else agree with
me on that.
                                             Mike Barr
P.S.  i still love almost every other book by OSC.
From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 17 19:23:34 1995
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Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 16:28:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: ESPANA <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Cover Art Blues, Terry Nation, Satanic Narnia (fwd)
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Espana N. Sheriff				"It ain't so much"
[log in to unmask]					BILLY THE KID
http://www.Catch22.COM/~espana	      		

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 12:04:56 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Cover Art Blues, Terry Nation, Satanic Narnia

Hello, Mike. You said (in part):

>>At the same time, here's what I -can't- do:

(#1 deleted)

2. Choose my cover artist<<

Pardon me while I gape a second, then remember a few authors whose
credentials are at least as strong as yours who obviously don't receive that
perk, either. Alan Dean Foster comes to mind. I DO hope you at least get them
to give the artist an accurate description of the scene they want depicted? I
will never forget the book I read (whose title escapes me) wherein the title
character was black/Cherokee and the cover art showed him as a Northern
European blond. Things must be improving, though, at least in some small way
with some people. The covers for David Weber's "Honor Harrington" series have
been quite accurate and well-done.
*****

	I agree, it's ridiculous that the author so often has little or 
no input and the artist obviously has not read the book. I've seen quite 
a few that screw up pretty badly. Although I haven't read the "Bill the 
Galactic Hero" books, I'm told that he's supposed to have 2 left arms 
(one on each side) but in one of the paperback editions they show him with 
two left arms, and one right. It's a shame, because there's some 
wonderful cover art out there as well, I remember the first new books I 
ever bought with my own money (babysitting cash) where the Chronichles of 
Narnia (all 7) in the gorgeous paperback editions by Lions (Collins Publ. 
Group) with cover art by Stephen Lavis. A few other books that I love I 
try and get in the editions that I remember and like, for instance 
Shardik with the large upright bear with long claws, The Robots of Dawn 
with the full color robot with his arms over his head, The Best of 
Cordwainer Smith paperback with most of the characters drawn by someone 
who obviously read the stories. I've always loved books partly just 
because they where just that, the smell, the feel of old hardcovers, I 
used to *love* the rocket coming from the open book symbol from DoubleDay.
It's always a bit depressing to see books I like in cheap hastily done editions.
Maybe I'm just too attached to the damn things.
	But im starting to digress and I havent had any coffee 
today. I'll shut up now.


 

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 01:06:43 1995
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Date:         Thu, 18 May 95 00:13:37 EDT
From: Catherine Morgan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      re: Left Hand, thread
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  Your message of Wed, 17 May 1995 07:07:29 -0400

>On Tue, 9 May 1995, Signifying Nothing wrote:
>
>> I am taking a course this semester in "The Bible and Literature." Our
>> final paper assignment is to write on the connections/relationship
>> between the Bible and a literary work of our choice. I've decided to
>> do _Left_Hand_of_Darkness_ and to write, at least in part, about the
>> messianic connections between Genly Ai and Jesus, both strangers in
>> strange lands. I welcome any suggestions or ideas or references you
>> would care to share.
>
On Wed, 17 May 1995, Sylvie Berard wrote:

>I hope this is not too sensitive an answer.
>I think this is to be included to something I would call the 'mythic
>temptation' in SF. If SF uses Greek/Latin, Celtic, etc. myths, why
>wouldn't it use the rich Judeo-Christian mythology (of course, some may
>not agree that THIS is mythology)?

Stephen Lawhead has done just that in his earlier works, i.e. _Dream
Thief_, _Empyrion_, and _The Dragon King Trilogy_.  His later works deal
more with Celtic mythology (_The Pendragon Cycle_ and _Song of Albion_).

A small Christian press (whose name escapes me) began an sf series. Its
first publication was a teen-oriented book by Gregory J. Smith, _Opera-
tion Master Planet_. In this book, the Source is G-d, the Power is the
holy spirit, and the Friend is Jesus. (Rather thinly veiled.)

I wish I could remember the author and title of another book-- it was
_The ? Light_-- which was a spaceodyssey about a "sect" which had sur-
vived milleniums of persecution and whose philosophy of religion strong-
ly resembled Judaism. I believe it was called _The Astral Light_. Good
read.

All of which is to say that there is an element of sff writers who do
pull on the "Judeo-Christian" mythology in their writings.

But, Signifying Nothing, was Jesus, a Jew born in Israel, truly a
"stranger in a strange land"?  Wait, please understand, I'm merely
pointing this out philosophically.... I do not, by any means, intend to
inflame or begin a religious debate..... Just pointing out points to
ponder :-)
                                  --Cat.

Catherine Buck Morgan
College of Library & Information Science, USC
[log in to unmask]
Phone (803)951-3144

If I am not for myself, Who is for me?
If I am only for myself, Who am I?
If not now, When?

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 03:44:47 1995
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Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 09:41:35 -0100
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From: [log in to unmask] (Roar Vinje)
Subject: Re: Worst Book
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     Andy McCann wrote:
>
>     Just for the record, this reader enjoyed being scared by "The Legacy 
>     of Heorot" (how is that pronounced, anyway?) very much, as did a 
>     somewhat discerning acquaintance of mine, to whom I lent the book 
>     (that's at least two fans).  Granted, the plot and characters are 
>     nothing exceptional, but I think Legacy is a solid example of SF 
>     horror -- probably on the same level as the movie "Predator," starring 
>     Ahnold, but perhaps not as good as some of Stephen King's books.

I couldn't agree more. A simple plot - maybe, but I would call it a tight focus 
on problems an exploration ship could encounter, findind the only habitable 
and *friendly* spot on a planet with a lot of big, ugly animals on the
mainland. 
As for the security officer, added to the expedition as an afterthought, I find
his problems being heard quite normal for a peaceful society. And the initial 
surveys of the island said *no dangers here*.

I read the book in one sitting, as did three of my friends, and we all agreed 
that we truly enjoyed this book. And we are all looking forward to the sequel.

By the way, the only Niven book I didn't enjoy much was The Descent of Anansi,
but even that one would not qualify as the worst SF book.

As for worst SF book:
Damia's Children by Anne McCaffrey, followed by Sassinak by Anne McCaffrey
and Elisabeth Moon. Damia's Children I couldn't finish, nothing happened for
120 pages, and the basic plot was the same as in The Rowan and Damia.
Sassinak started beautifully, and then ended as a terrible rewrite of Dinosaur 
Planet Survivors (which I did like, actually). But why these two books as the
worst? The dissapointment I think. AMcC has written wonderful books (the
first six dragonriders books, Crystal Singer etc..), so these to are just
too awful
compared to those. 

Roar Vinje
===========================
[log in to unmask]
Consultant Engineer
P.O.Box 34 
N-7075 Tiller
Norway
===========================


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 05:04:55 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Worst Book
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>     David Hipple wrote:
>     "I dunno - I have to say that The Legacy of Heorot was the one that
>     came to my mind when these criteria came up.  Borrowed ideas, strung
>     together by, well, a string really - no plot to speak of...."
>     [snip]
>
>     Just for the record, this reader enjoyed being scared by "The Legacy
>     of Heorot" (how is that pronounced, anyway?) very much, as did a
>     somewhat discerning acquaintance of mine, to whom I lent the book
>     (that's at least two fans).

I know - I, too, have a discerning friend who likes the thing.  He seems 
happy enough with it as a mouth-open-and-brain-in-first-gear romp, but 
personally I can't even like it on that level.  I've sounded off about it 
here before so I shan't go into it at length again, but one of my principal 
objections to the book overall, other than simply the lightness of character 
and plot, is that every important detail of the resolution is foreshadowed 
so early and so heavy-handedly that I had the cynical feeling that I was 
reading it backwards.  That kind of knackered it for me, even as an 
adventure...

In case no-one's answered the other point, Heorot is pronounced sort of like 
it looks, with a couple of qualifiers.  It's tempting for some (including 
me!) to lengthen the vowels for a kind of cod antiquated feel, but I think 
that they are all short.  The "o"s then are easy.  The "e" (if this is 
right) is roughly as in English "hair" (except that that's long - "set" is 
better though perhaps less intuitive) as opposed to "hay".  Sounds odd to 
modern ears, but that's what you get for it not being modern.

At the risk of /really/ patronising evryone here, it might just be worth 
stating the probably very obvious - that Heorot was the name of the hall 
built for his faithful warriors by the chief Hrothgar in the poem Beowulf. 
 It was in this hall that the descendant of Cain, Grendel, exacted his 
revenge on humanity by coming in from the fens and killing even  the 
fiercest of warriors in their home time after time.  Hrothgar's men were 
powerless to fend Grendel off and Beowulf himself arrived from overseas to 
fight him, at one point tearing off Grendel's arm which was then displayed 
over the door of the hall, before going into the fens to deal with Grendel's 
mother and thus saving the day, not to mention noble Hrothgar's sadly 
diminished followers.  "Heorot" happens also to be Old English for "stag", 
often a symbol of royalty.  Beowulf is the oldest surviving English poem (as 
far as I know), and is incomplete even so.  Parallels between the ancient 
poem and the modern book seem to be limited to the facts that the book 
initially sells itself (at least to some) by alluding to the poem, and that 
in some effort at justification the authors decided to name the new species 
grendels.  Otherwise, none of the plot, action or character is relevant in 
the slightest.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 05:20:25 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Cover Art Blues, Terry Nation, Satanic Narnia
Date: Thu, 18 May 95 10:17:00 BST
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Brenda:

>Dave, while I will sometimes argue with success, I won't do it very
>assiduously. Mr. Nation has my respect, even if I find his writing boring.
>And Colin Baker went down as the least popular Doctor of all seven. Too 
much
>of a pompous git until the last few episodes of the single-season storyline
>"Trial of a Time Lord." By then it was too late.


Well, as I think I mentioned, I have almost no personal expertise whatever 
on Doctor Who - at least none relevant to this more recent material.  I must 
say, though, that it seems clear even to me that there are at least two 
distinct camps here.  Maybe those who liked Colin Baker (I know there are 
some!) /really/ like him - there are definitely those who would cheerfully 
burn McCoy for his part in what they perceive as the merciless prostitution 
and vivisection of the series.  Actually even if it happened it was probably 
his fault least of all, but there you go...

(I've seen Baker in the informal spinoffs called The Stranger or The 
Outsider or whatever they were called.  I must say that I rather enjoyed 
them, even if they were somewhat stodgy, and for me it was really Baker's 
performance that held them up.)

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 06:03:50 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: The good, the bad, and the ugly
Date: Thu, 18 May 95 10:58:00 BST
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Stephanie:

>My vote for the worst books are the last books "by" L Ron Hubbard.  These
>were allegedly compiled by the executors of his estate and other interested 

>parties from pieces of published and unpublished work after his death.
>Their only saving grace is that portions of them are hysterically
>funny -- unintentionally so.
>
>To be readable at all a book should, at the very least, have an author!

A very fair and reasonable point.

A friend instantly recommended the "Hubbard" books to me when I mentioned 
this thread to him.  Between you, you and he have convinced me to have a go.

I am very sorry to say that I can't find (I've been looking for months) a 
book that I know I used to have that was amazingly dreadfully written. 
 Characters were forever expressing their emotions by wriggling their 
eyebrows or other equally bizarre demonstration, and no utterance was 
complete with some contortion of the lips.  Sadly missed.  That's one that I 
would recommend in absentia, anyway.  If I can find the thing I'll post the 
details.  It's unbelievable.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 08:38:46 1995
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From: Ruth Ballam <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: University of Plymouth
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 13:16:42 GMT
Subject: Worst Books
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After a quick survey in the office we've agreed on the Thomas Covenant books. 
Most of the comments aren't repeatable in polite company but the word "shite" 
was used a lot.   

Runners up
************
* Battlefield Earth was in the running except that not all of us had read it so 
couldn't comment.   
*Terry Brookes got a vote for the Shannara books.
*Communion.
*The first of the new Star Wars books, which went straight into the bin after 
reading.
*Skylark series - E.E. Doc Smith 
*Frankinstein Unbound - Brian Aldiss
*Spiderworld - Colin Forbes

Ruth and friends
University of Plymouth
England


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 08:53:00 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: CHEAP TRUTH WWW site
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 13:43:31 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "John J. Ronald" at May 18, 95 06:43:53 am
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Someone posted a message giving the details of a www site for
CHEAP TRUTH. Unfortunately I lost the details. Could you or
whoever has the details repost?

Sorry to take up time with my own incompetence!

Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library
The University of Liverpool
051-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
> 
> 


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 09:00:43 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: Worst SF books



>  Well if there can be a judge for the worst SF I must be it. I liked Fear No
> Evil and Friday. I seem to be able to enjoy anything, well almost. 

I'll join you on this one.  While part of the issue is that I will attempt to
read something that I think I'll like (judging by book reviews, blurbs on the
book, who the author is, etc.) so that I won't be disappointed, the other part
is that I very rarely dislike something that I've read.  And I'll always try
to finish the book.

>  I am stubborn, and once I decide to read something, it gets read PERIOD.
> That isn't a smart policy.

Again, I'm the same way.  And no, it's not a smart policy, because you end up
wasting time reading a book you're just not enjoying instead of one you might
be able to.  My exception to this is short stories.  I seem to be able to put
down a short story I don't like without any problems at all.

I have two entries into the Worst SF book category.  One of these books is the
one and only sf novel I've never been able to get through, even though I
started it 2 or 3 times.  That book is "The Dispossessed" by LeGuin.  I know
how much people love it.  I just couldn't get through it.  Granted, this was
many years ago, so I may be able to get through it now, but I've got too many
books in the house now that I haven't yet tried to read for me to go pick this
one back up.

The other book came on a recommendation from a book review.  I used to subscribe
to Galaxy when a) I was a teenager, and b) it was on its last legs.  Before
Spider Robinson took over the book reviewing chores for Galaxy, Theodore
Sturgeon reviewed books for that magazine (at least I think it was Galaxy).
Anyway, he said that the best sf novel ever written was "Dahlgren" by Delany.
So I went out and bought it.  It took me an entire summer to read (1976 I
think it was), and to this day I don't know why I bothered to finish it.  I
know that "Dahlgren" is one of those books one either loves or hates, and it
has generated a ton of discussion in various forums over the last 20 years, but
I just couldn't get into it.  But I finished it.  Not a smart policy.

Joe Karpierz

From cstu  Thu May 18 10:00:26 1995
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From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Worst SF books
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Many of you have talked about books you disliked but completed reading 
anyway.  Let me mention a book I did not read, but I think would be very 
bad.  Granted, it is more of a horror book, but the principal is the 
same.  One of the collections I worked on for awhile was the Copyright 
Paperback Collection, housed in the Library of Congress's Rare Book Div.  
It is a collection of (supposedly) all book originally released in 
paperback.  There are some trash items in the collection, but the one 
that really made me laugh was a book about a Nazi spy in WWII who was 
also a vampire.  The plot revolved around his being captured and sent to 
a prison camp in Greenland (or was it Iceland).  Just reading the blurb 
was enough to make me think "This must be really bad."  If anyone has 
read this and can support or contridict what I am saying, please feel 
free to do so.  My point is in some cases, I am negative about a book 
just from the cover and blurb (and in a very few cases, just from the cover).
Colleen
_________________________________________________________________________
Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian    [log in to unmask]
Library of Congress                                  (202) 707-4132
Washington, DC 20540-4861                       FAX: (202) 707-4142
These opinions are mine, Mine MINE!       
__________________________________________________________________________

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 10:04:22 1995
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Date:         Thu, 18 May 95  10:07:06 EDT
From: Bob Roehm <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Worst SF - Fritz Leibers The Wanderer
In-Reply-To:  note of 05/18/95 06:42
To: "SF & Fantasy Discussion Forum" <[log in to unmask]>


If I'm reading Mack Lundy's note correctly, he is criticizing Fritz Leiber's
The Wanderer after only listening to a taped reading of the book. Whatever the
merits (or lack thereof) of a particular work, there is a considerable
difference between actually reading the printed text and listening to even a
skillful reader tell the story. Even though the words may be the same, we are
really dealing with two different media.

Other points come to mind as well: Was the tape abridged or unabridged? Mack's
comment about "bloated" seems to inply the latter, but I'm not familiar with
this recording. And prose that may sound "purple" while being read aloud may
not seem quite the same when being read on the page.

It's been a long time since I read The Wanderer, but I recall it being pretty
fair. It did win the Hugo for Best Novel in 1964 (I think), though I think
that was more in regard to Leiber's career than this particular novel, which
was certainly uncharacteristic of the rest of his work.

Another point comes to mind on this "worst books" thread: What may seem a bad
book today may not have been so when the book was published. How much should
we be reading in the context of a work's time?

Bob

Robert A. Roehm
Asst., Office of Collection Mgmt., Ekstrom Library
Univ of Louisville, Louisville KY 40292
[log in to unmask] - (502)852-8715

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 10:32:12 1995
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Date: 	Thu, 18 May 1995 11:36:42 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re[2]: CHEAP TRUTH WWW site

     Go to:
     
     http://www.etext.org/Zines/
     
     and choose "Search through the zine archive by name".
     
     Or, more directly:
     
     gopher://gopher.etext.org:70/11/Zines/CheapTruth


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: CHEAP TRUTH WWW site
Author:  [log in to unmask] at nylanr01
Date:    5/18/95 10:17 AM


Someone posted a message giving the details of a www site for 
CHEAP TRUTH. Unfortunately I lost the details. Could you or 
whoever has the details repost?
     
Sorry to take up time with my own incompetence!
     
Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection 
Sydney Jones Library
The University of Liverpool
051-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
> 
> 
     


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 10:47:31 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Bad SF/F

A book I found disappointing was "Achilles' Choice" by Larry Niven and Steve
Barnes. It was too predictable. It was still better than "Rowan" by Anne
McCaffrey, though. That book made me want to fly to Ireland, track her down,
and shake her by the shoulders while screaming, "WHY, Anne, WHY? You're
BETTER than that!" There was never any doubt that Rowan would save the world.
YAWN.

What makes bad SF/F? In many ways, the same things that make any fiction bad.
Insufficiently drawn characters, plots that jump tracks worse than an Amtrak
cross-country train whose engineer is on pot, writers who insist on using bad
similes like the one I just did and aren't doing it for comic effect, and
"gotcha" endings that are more cliche than surprise. What bad SF can have
that the other genres don't is bad science on top of everything else, such as
if it uses a line like "I can make the Kessel run in 12 parsecs" and means it
as more than a show of braggadocio. Bad fantasy falls prey to aping Tolkien
or forgetting such niceties as the fact that plate armor is heavy, like some
role-playing games I could think of. That stuff all falls under the field of
accuracy. Fantasy can get away with showing stuff that "can't" happen in
reality, like "Highlander" and its immortals and the Quickening, but that
Quickening hurts like hell, the sword fights tire them out, and they aren't
gifted with good swordsmanship upon their resurrections. They also have to
learn how to time their "deaths" and go into hiding to regroup and acquire
new identities. It's not perfect fantasy, but it covers enough of the bases
to be decent. And yes, I am completely ignoring that pathetic attempt at a
sequel that made them space aliens. It would be like accepting the film
version of Asimov's "Nightfall" as a decent interpretation of the original
text.

-Brenda
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From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Bad Covers (Was Worst SF Books)

Colleen writes:

> [snip]  My point is in some cases, I am negative about a book 
> just from the cover and blurb (and in a very few cases, just from the cover).

That's very true, and unfortunate.  A couple of years ago I read a book called
_Wulfsyarn_ by Phillip Mann.  Now, I would *never* have chosen that book on my
own.  The cover painting had a man's face in front of a spaceship that looked
vaguely like the Enterprise.  Let's face it, any non-Trek book that makes you
think of Trek when you look at it is probably bad news.  The jacket copy didn't
help -- it made the story sound like the worst sort of hard SF, the kind where
the characters exist only to move the machinery around.  But I was supposed
to be reviewing this book for _Publishers Weekly_, so I read it, and boy, am
I glad I did.  I was beautifully written, emotionally gripping, and full of
fascinating ideas about human and alien nature.  Unfortunately, no one else
I know seems to have read this book (how about on this list... anyone?), and
I wonder how much of this is due to the awful packaging.

Marina Frants
[log in to unmask]

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From: [log in to unmask] (Ed McKnight)
Subject: SF and Sci-Fi

I've rarely heard anyone use the term "sci-fi" in a derogatory manner, and I
don't think any insult is usually intended by its use.  However, I tend to
assume that the speaker is either being ironic or attempting to claim
greater familiarity with the genre than he/she actually has.  This obviously
isn't fair, since a number of this mailing list's subscribers use the term,
but it has always been my knee-jerk response.  The term "science fiction"
carries with it no such claim to familiarity, and I would certainly never
think ill of anyone who used it no matter how unfamiliar they might be with
the genre.   My principal objection to "sci-fi" is therefore neither that it
signifies contempt nor that it shows ignorance, but that (strangely enough)
it SOUNDS pretentious.

Ed "I'm-not-exactly-an-insider-myself" McKnight  -   [log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 12:25:12 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
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Date: Thu, 18 May 95 16:01:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Authors and Covers
X-Genie-Id: 6983629
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

We don't have any say in our covers, for the most part, although I always
have cover approval written into my contracts.  What happens in actual fact,
though, is that I get a proof of the cover by FedEx, along with a note that
says "Here's your cover art, don't you just love it?  Because it's going to
be published in twenty minutes and it's too late to do anything about it."
 
We all have had some nightmare covers, but the worst I've ever seen were the
old Doubleday hardcover two-color jobs, most of which were grotesque
collages.  I've had six or seven of them.  If you want to see about the
worst book jackets in history, get copies of my novel HEROICS or short story
collection IRRATIONAL NUMBERS (as if you could!).  Wow.
 
GAE

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 12:24:38 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thu, 18 May 95 16:00:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Reading Speed
X-Genie-Id: 7671306
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

I have very little time for pleasure-reading, unfortunately.  I usually have
three writing projects going at once, in different stages.  I have what I'm
actually writing in the final stage, a second story or book in the gathering-
material-and outlining stage, and a third in the early preparatory stage.
The latter two require a good deal of research and reading.  I tend to
research almost everything, even if the story is a light humor piece.  I
mentioned this to Tim Powers once, and he said he had the same need to get
all the facts straight, but that sometime "doing research" is a means of
avoiding the actual work of writing: it _feels_ as if you're doing something
constructive, but in reality you're procrastinating after a certain point.
He realized he'd reached that point once when he was making transatlantic
telephone calls to find out what color the carpeting was in a certain room.
That kind of "research" is pointless; when you're writing fiction, you're
allowed to make stuff up, even if you get the color of the carpeting wrong
in a real-world place.
 
So most of my reading is history, science, politics, etc. necessary for
whatever I'm working on.  The pleasure reading comes at night, before bed,
for maybe an hour.  And I like to read only superior fiction for pleasure--I
have no use for "good reads."  I like to read books that don't irritate me
with their shoddiness in any of the basic elements of fiction; I don't have
time for that.  For me, part of the pleasure (beyond that of skillfully
drawn characters and compelling story) is to see how another writer has used
his unique creativity to solve fictional problems that I have or may
confront myself.
 
For instance, I really enjoyed Jonathan Lethem's GUN WITH OCCASIONAL MUSIC,
which I finished a few days ago.  It took me ten days to read it--not
because I was bogged down, but because I loved his prose and I rationed the
book out to about thirty pages an evening.  I can't help being analytical
while reading (or watching movies; I've only found one other person--another
SF writer--who enjoys going to movies with me, because I'm always taking the
films apart scene by scene as I watch them).
 
That's why I never take it as a compliment when somebody tells me that he's
read one of my books in an hour or two.  I probably spent six months of
actual writing time, and the better part of a year or two putting that book
together, and I'm sure a lot of my effort was wasted on someone racing
through the pages.  I'm also not impressed by people telling me about the
vast numbers of books they own, as if they were trophies of some sort.
Buying books is not an achievement.  I have a constant war with my
girlfriend, because we have severe bookshelf space at home, and I see no
reason to hang onto a book that either I'm never going to read, or read once
and plan never to read again.  She refuses to get rid of any book, ever.  So
I'm always weeding out "my" books and donating them to the New Orleans
Public Library to make room for new books.
 
GAE

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 12:24:16 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thu, 18 May 95 16:01:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Authors and Covers II
X-Genie-Id: 2526617
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

Mike, the dumbest experience I ever had with covers was with the publisher
of a certain series of mine.  The first in the series had a very good
painting, I thought.  The second book had a similar painting, and so did the
third.  I mentioned this to the art director.  I said each book's cover
looked just like the other: they all had the protagonist, a flying police
car, a bar, and a half-dressed woman.  They were also done in the same
colors and shades, and I said they looked too much alike on a bookstore's
shelves.  The art director told me that the artist thought that the covers
were "thematic."  I told her that the fourth book was going to be a
challenge for the artist, because in it the protagonist goes on the
pilgrimage to Mecca, and there's a decided lack of bars in that holy city.
She said, "Why not have a going-away party for him before he leaves?"  So I
did--well, it helped me introduce some characters and ideas, anyway.
Finally, I just sort of hinted that maybe I could get a new cover artist.
 
That's when she told me that the artist was her husband.
 
(signed) "Always Wanted A Richard Powers Cover"

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 12:25:36 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thu, 18 May 95 16:00:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: SF-LIT digest 105
X-Genie-Id: 9218817
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

Aarrgghhh.
 
Can we please stop talking about "worst SF books" before some of my own
titles get mentioned?
 
I'm not being modest when I say that I've written two or three of the worst
SF books since the Dawn of Creation.  Wow.  There are a couple that I'll
autograph only if the person promises that he'll never read them.  One, in
particular, is pretty terrible; I wrote it when I was desperately in need of
money, in the hospital for a few months, and connected to machines.  It was
a great idea for a novel--something I'd sold to the publisher before I got
ill--and I wish I'd been able to give the story all my attention.  Still, it
got published with my name on it, so I can't very well tell all the people
who bought it, "I'm sorry about how bad it is, but there are extenuating
circumstances."
 
I like to think that after I wrote those awful ones, I wrote a few that made
up for them.
 
And it's odd how, every now and then, someone will tell me that the awful
ones are their favorites.  De gustibus, y'all.
 
GAE

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 12:41:28 1995
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Mack Lundy" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Worst SF - Fritz Leibers The Wanderer
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 18 May 95 12:43:31 PDT
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 18 May 1995 11:44:06 -0400.<[log in to unmask]>
Encoding:  49 TEXT , 4 TEXT 

Robert A. Roehm Wrote:

>If I'm reading Mack Lundy's note correctly, he is criticizing Fritz >Leiber'
s The Wanderer after only listening to a taped reading of the book. >
Whatever the merits (or lack thereof) of a particular work, there is a >
considerable difference between actually reading the printed text and >
listening to even a skillful reader tell the story. Even though the words >
may be the same, we are really dealing with two different media.

Ok, you're right.  It probably isn't fair to judge a book from only a
recording. I almost didn't send the message because I hadn't actually "read"
the book.  On the other hand,  I have listened to enough recordings from
Recorded Books - of books that I have also read - that I didn't think that
the diffference in media was significant.  Also, by listening, rather that
reading, I actually experienced every word; if I had been reading I would
have been tempted to skip.

>Other points come to mind as well: Was the tape abridged or unabridged? >
Mack's comment about "bloated" seems to inply the latter, but I'm not     >
familiar with this recording.

It was an unabridged recording.  Here I still maintain that there were many
subplots that did not contribute significantly to the story.

I just finished reading _Worldwar: Tilting the Balance_, the second volume
of Harry Turtledove's alternate history of WWII.  Turtledove has lots of
subplots going on but they contribute to the overall story and begin to
interweave.

>And prose that may sound "purple" while being read aloud may not seem >
quite the same when being read on the page. 

Good point.  I guess I put a lot of faith in the recording because of
previous experiences where I felt that listening a recording of the book
contributed significantly to my enjoyment  of the work.  I have read and
listened to Patrick O'Brian's Jack Aubry novels.  I enjoyed the listening
experience more and got more out of the novels while listening.  That doesn'
t mean that I have given up reading, however.

>Another point comes to mind on this "worst books" thread: What may seem a >
bad book today may not have been so when the book was published. How much >
should we be reading in the context of a work's time?
>
Real good point!  I suspect that, in 1964 and as high school junior, I would
have loved this book.  Not long ago I read the restored, originalversion of
Heinlein's _Stranger in a Strange Land_.  Here was a book that I thought was
great when it came out but had to force myself to finish in the 90's

Mack

Mack A. Lundy III                                    [log in to unmask]
Library Systems Manager, Swem Library
College of William and Mary, Williamsburg, VA
VOICE:  (804) 221-3114      FAX:  (804) 221-3088

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 12:48:29 1995
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From: Moonbeam <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Cover Art Blues, Terry Nation, Satanic Narnia
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Thu, 18 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Sometimes cover art can be terribly frustrating. For example: while


As a diehard Robert Jordan fan, I can agree with this. The Darrell Sweet 
covers, while fine as a print, have nothing what-so-ever with the actual 
contents of the novels. It is quite obvious that he does not read the 
book in advance, and is only going by a thin outline from the publishers.

It is too bad, too. The Wheel of Time Series deserves a more accurate 
representation of the magnificent story inside.

Michelle

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 13:35:08 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Worst SF books

I am reading with growing horror at how many people have dislike the later
works of Heinleim.  I am not ashamed to admit that his Howard Families series
and tie in are some of my favorite reading and rereading material.  
As for the worst book every, it was something called "Eat Them Alive", a
rather sordid little bit of science fiction.  In it a man was raising giant
preying mantis who ate people alive.  It was so horrible in fact that a
teacher friend of mine still uses it in his class room as an example of how
not to construct novels.

See ya all in church

Lee Brown

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 13:56:43 1995
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Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 14:57:27 -0300 (ADT)
From: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Bad Covers (Was Worst SF Books)
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Marina: I haven't read (or even seen) Phillip Mann's _Wulfsyarn_, but I 
think that I would have been put off by the cover you describe. In case 
you are interested, I *have* read, and enjoyed, _The Eye of the Queen_ by 
the same author - you might like to try it, although I can't guarantee 
you will like it. He has also started a series called The Story of the 
Gardener, of which Volume 1 is _Master of Paxwax_ which I found very 
mannered and not very interesting. 

*****************************************************************
patricia monk (dr)                              [log in to unmask]
                   "just visiting this planet"
*****************************************************************
On Thu, 18 May 1995, Marina Frants wrote:

> A couple of years ago I read a book called
> _Wulfsyarn_ by Phillip Mann.  Now, I would *never* have chosen that book on my
> own.  .  . . .  But I was supposed
> to be reviewing this book for _Publishers Weekly_, so I read it, and boy, am
> I glad I did.  I was beautifully written, emotionally gripping, and full of
> fascinating ideas about human and alien nature.  Unfortunately, no one else
> I know seems to have read this book (how about on this list... anyone?), and
> I wonder how much of this is due to the awful packaging.
> Marina Frants
> [log in to unmask]
> 

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 14:30:29 1995
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From: @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]
Subject:      Re: Authors and Covers
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id:   <950518.142548.EDT.CAMILLE@TEMPLEVM>

George, when it comes to cover horror stories, mine is so bizarre I am
boggled still.  When ENTERPRISING WOMEN came up from the art dept., they
had put a mauve background behind a b&w picture of a dying Spock amid a
veritable bounty of Christ-symbols.  Mauve was supposed to be some sort of
code-color for "feminist."  The editorial department sent it back, because
the photo was completely obscured by the background color.  So Art sent it
back with a hot pink background.  Editorial didn't want to tell me what the
color was, but I sort of sat in their offices until they told me.  When I
complained at how inappropriate the color was--Spock dying, complete with
cross and pinwheeling sun, on a hot pink background--the art DESIGNER said
I had no business interfering in their ARTISTIC FREEDOM!   Well, we did get

the color changed to something more appropriate--and we won't tell the dirty
tricks, including taking cold-blooded advantage of an untimely death, it
took to change it--but the art department is not happy with me.

Camille

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 14:34:16 1995
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From: @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]
Subject:      Re: Reading Speed
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id:   <950518.142939.EDT.CAMILLE@TEMPLEVM>

Reading a book like THE DISPOSSESSED takes me forever to read, because
I have to stop after every chapter and spend the rest of the day pursuing
all the avenues of thought that the chapter opens up.  Reading a book like
Gleik's CHAOS, on the other hand, takes a long time because my mind wanders,and
I have to drag it back on point time and time again.

Camille

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 14:49:56 1995
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Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 13:49:40 -0600 (CST)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Worst SF - Fritz Leibers The Wanderer
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Bob Roehm's comment about reading a book within the context of its time
is important. Many of the sf novels acknowledged as great in their day
are no longer readable by today's standards, in part because sf has simply
improved, in part because the standards have changed, and in part, I
suspect, because many of us are no longer 12 years old. I loved the 
Foundation series as a kid, but now find it virtually unreadable. Ditto Slan and E. E. Smith. Leiber's The Wanderer was an important novel in its day, which
is why I chose it for continued inclusion in the 4th edition of Anatomy
of Wonder just out, but by today's standards it does seem a bit creaky.

My own choices for the worst sf novel?  Well Hubbard is kind of in a league
of his own, like Gretzky or Babe Ruth, or Babe Didrickson Zaharias, but among
mere mortals, I'd pick Stephen R. Donaldson's Gap series. That bloated, 
purple prose that is marginally acceptable in Lord Foul's Bane, and actually
improves in the later Covenant novels, is just fingernails on the blackboard
within a science fiction context, and then there's the sado-masochism, which
is enough to give any normal person the willies.

Another candidate, though less well known, is Lunar Justice by Charles Harness;
next to the Donaldson books, it's the worst sf novel I've reviewed or read
in the past seven or eight years. Then there's Nicholas Baker's masturbation
fantasy The Fermata. Read that one with gloves on!

Mike Levy

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 14:56:10 1995
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Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 13:55:57 -0600 (CST)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Authors and Covers
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Frequently a bad cover isn't entirely the cover artist's fault either. I 
think it's Michael Whelan who, in one of his books, shows a series of paintings
he did for a Poul Anderson novel. The initial and highly accurate illustration
features a vaguely feline alien. The succeeding versions, created consecutively
at the insistence of the art director, feature more and more humanoid-female-
bimboeque aliens, each a bit more sexy and silly than the last. 

Another silly cover illustration--the original illustration for Charles
de Lint's Svaha.

Mike Levy

From @CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 15:46:54 1995
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Date:         Thu, 18 May 95 11:40:06 EST
From: Doug Kuiper <@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Worst SF Book/Cover Art Blues
To: [log in to unmask]

My nomination goes to (tension producing pause) ... Lear's Daughters.
I can't remember who wrote this tedious tome, but it was about a planet
inhabited by some type of creatures who lived in labyrynthian tunnels.  This
planet was being expolored by a group of humans.  The great, driving secret of
the book was "What's really going on in those tunnels anyway?"  However, after
about three hundred pages in which nothing happened, I gave up.  It is the only
book I have left unfinished.   The qualities that drove me away from this
book were: a lack of character development, a lack of plot movement, and what
seemed to me ponderous, mechanical prose.  This is all IMHO, of course.  I
don't even remember who wrote this book, I hope it's no one on the list ;).

Colleen wrote:
>... in some cases, I am negative about a book just from the cover and blurb...

I have this problem as well.  If a book has not been reccomended to me, or if
it is not among a group of authors that I enjoy, I tend to (somewhat)
unconciously resort to looking at the cover.  This is unfortunate,
but especially true of paperbacks.  Within the myriad of books in the SF
paperback section, an attractive cover can lead me to reading the synopsis
or leafing through the pages and perhaps discovering a new author.  This leads
me to sympathize with Mike and the other pros who have little (or no) control
over cover art.  I think the combined effect of visual and the written media is
very interesting.  Excellent Cover Art can actually lead me to the discovery
of great writing.  Therefore, even though Cover Art might be considered
*gasp* marketing, it can actually introduce a wider audience to great work.



-Doug
[log in to unmask]

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From: Doug Kuiper <@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Bad SF/SF on TV
To: [log in to unmask]

Bob wrote:
>How much should we be reading in the context of a work's time?

I think, in terms of the "worst", that is a very fair question.  Literary
styles, technique, and grace do evolve.  In terms of the best, however, I
believe that the best literature is, in a practical sense, timeless.

A brief return to SF/Fantasy on TV.  Has anyone seen an animated series on
MTV entitle The Maxx?  The art is amazing and the dialogue and subject matter
are remarkably mature for TV. I believe it is based upon a comic book.

-Doug
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 16:58:51 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Worst SF - Fritz Leibers The Wanderer


> Real good point!  I suspect that, in 1964 and as high school junior, I would
> have loved this book.  Not long ago I read the restored, originalversion of
> Heinlein's _Stranger in a Strange Land_.  Here was a book that I thought was
> great when it came out but had to force myself to finish in the 90's

Well, at the risk of being called a heretic or something, I never even read
_Stranger in a Strange Land_ until sometime in the last two or three years, and
then it was the originally published version, not the restored version.  I
really never understood what all the hype was about.  This probably gets to
your point exactly.  I was very young (under 5, I think) when it came out, so
of course I didn't read it when it was socially relevant.

Odd thing though.  I bought the really nicely bound edition from the SFBC when
the published the restored version.  I hope to reread it some day (not THAT
thread again :-)) and see if anything changes for me.

Joe Karpierz

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 17:44:22 1995
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Mack Lundy" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Worst SF - Fritz Leibers The Wanderer
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thu, 18 May 95 17:46:13 PDT
In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 18 May 1995 17:12:21 -0400.<[log in to unmask]>
Encoding:  16 TEXT , 4 TEXT 

Mike Levy wrote:

>I loved the Foundation series as a kid, but now find it virtually >
unreadable. Ditto Slan and E. E. Smith. Leiber's The Wanderer was an >
important novel in its day, which is why I chose it for continued inclusion >
in the 4th edition of Anatomy of Wonder just out, but by today's standards >
it does seem a bit creaky.

Mike,

Why was The Wanderer an important novel for its day?  I missed it at the time.

thanks

Mack (who is beginning to think he shot from the hip regarding The Wanderer)
                   

Mack A. Lundy III                                    [log in to unmask]
Library Systems Manager, Swem Library
College of William and Mary, Williamsburg, VA
VOICE:  (804) 221-3114      FAX:  (804) 221-3088

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 23:01:12 1995
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Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 23:01:06 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Bad Covers

I do judge my purchases partly by the cover art, after blurbs, after Title,
after author, after reviews I've read.

I don't usually regret this _but_ ONE cover really turned me off, and in  a
state of temporary loss of memory I didn't recognize the author.  I saw it
many times *but* I NEVER PICKED UP THE BOOK.

Folks, I really screwed up.

--Paul (with no _Jurasic Park_ on my shelves)

PS.  I almost bought that signed edition, but didn't.  I *knew* it was an
autopen <g>





From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 23:11:53 1995
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Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 23:11:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Reading Speed
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Good message, George. I read it in 23 seconds.

-- Mike

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 18 23:20:19 1995
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Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 23:20:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Authors and Covers II
To: [log in to unmask]
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Over the years, I've had some of the best: Michael Whelan, Jim Burns,
Kelly Freas, Jeff Jones, Boris Vallejo, Kevin Johnson, Don Ivan Punchanz,
a bunch of others. Of all 50+ of my books, I -really- liked Whelan's
cover to PARADISE, Without naming artists, I think I liked maybe 4 other
covers.

It's the foreign covers that make you sit up and take notice, tho.
THE SOUL EATER isa very introspective book that takes place on a
one-man spaceship; the Japanese version had a naked barbarian swordswoman
on the cover. WALPURGIS III is an inquery into the nature of evil, set
on a world that worships Satan; the German edition had a 18th-Century
pirate ship on the cover. THE DARK LADY is kind of metaphysical science
fiction; the British edition merely swiped the American cover to
Bruce Sterling's ISLANDS IN THE NET. There's a photo of me and seven
Japanese men and women on the back of one of the Japanese editions;
we're all smiling gleefully into the camera -- but I never posed for
that picture. They cut my photo out of an issue of Locus and pasted
it over some other guy...but I don't read Japanese, so I don't know
what I'm supposed to be doing there.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 19 02:00:19 1995
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Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 02:00:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Signifying Nothing <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Alvin Maker
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]"
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According to a friend who's in the publishing business, Tor will be 
putting out the fourth book in Orson Scott Card's Alvin Maker series 
this fall. It's titled "Alvin, Journeyman" and will be in cloth for 
$23.95...I have the ISBN if anyone wants it.

Now all those of us who've been waiting years for this will have to go 
back and reread the first three books...! 

-joan
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
<D. Joan [log in to unmask]>
>Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak................<
<Whispers the o'erfraught heart and bids it break................>
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 19 02:21:39 1995
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Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 02:21:39 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Reading Speed

 Mr Effinger,
{ You get called that until you say otherwise by me at least. Excuse me if
I'm being old world.}

 I don't just race through your work or anyone's I read it and enjoy it as
best I can. I just read fast. I like to tear things up when I read them too,
and I like to reassemble them in my own way. I reread and I'll end up doing
it differently. (The tearing and reassembly.) I change with time, and so do
my analysis of something as subjective as great fiction or any prose. I suck
in data and make/remake sense of it. To me the best writer are the ones whose
words naturally build themselves into ideas in my mind and take all the work
of "making" sense away.
 I stray. I appreciate all the work writers do, just because I read quickly
doesn't mean I don't think about what I read. There is always time long after
I read to think, more so if I don't have to read.
 I guess that's an interesting note. I don't like reading itself, I like
feeling the ideas and thinking about them. I view reading as acquiring data.
I still have to process and interpret it. Its that second stage that drives
me.

 Enough for now. Take care all. -Alexander

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 19 05:07:40 1995
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From: Richard Wallace Oberdorfer <[log in to unmask]>
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Worst SF book
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 19 May 95 5:07:38 EDT
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>; from "Paolo Piccioni" at May 16, 95 1:18 pm
X-Mailer: PENELM [version 2.3.1 PL11]

I have a couple of titles that simply left me cold -- although
I understand other people loved them.  The first is THE
DIFFERENCE ENGINE, an alternate history the goes off in too many
directions at once and really never seems to take the time to
pull things together. The second is a book other people consider
a classic: Heinlein's STARSHIP TROOPERS, the content of which I
found respulsive in the extreme.  While there are elements in
Heinlein's other books that may bother me, the other novels I
have read all have some redeeming charateristics. TROOPERS made
me wonder if the whole thing could have been a
reverse-psychology joke.

Richard Oberdorfer

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 19 06:11:06 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Worst SF - Fritz Leibers The Wanderer
Date: Fri, 19 May 95 11:04:00 BST
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>Another point comes to mind on this "worst books" thread: What may seem a 
bad
>book today may not have been so when the book was published. How much 
should
>we be reading in the context of a work's time?


I was thinking about exactly this with regard to Robert Silverberg who has 
got to be one of my all-time favourite authors.  I found myself looking at 
Those Who Watch this morning, and remembering it as a truly dreadful thing. 
 Then again it may have been perfectly acceptable in its day.

By the way, I managed (ta-DAAAA) to dig up what is possibly the worst book 
on the face of the planet, which I feared I'd lost for ever.  It's called 
Cradle of Stars, by Alex Random.  Apparently he's responsible for two other 
novels (at least).  If anyone  knows of copies of Star Cluster Seven or Dark 
Constellation, I'd be interested...

"Taylor grimly agreed.  He went to fetch Parry, and then waited in silence 
for Elgar Laxton!  The facts were incontrovertible!  He could not get away 
from them!  The only thing of which he was uncertain was the future and all 
it contained..."

Or, "'But make no move until you are certain the kidnappers have acted 
insincerely, or with trickery.'"

These are two of the few passages that don't involve someone's eyes 
gleaming.  People do say and do a lot of things grimly, though.  It goes on 
and on and on...

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 19 06:36:18 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Bad Covers (Was Worst SF Books)
Date: Fri, 19 May 95 11:19:00 BST
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Marina:

>> [snip]  My point is in some cases, I am negative about a book
>> just from the cover and blurb (and in a very few cases, just from the
>cover).
>
>That's very true, and unfortunate.  A couple of years ago I read a book 
called
>_Wulfsyarn_ by Phillip Mann.  Now, I would *never* have chosen that book on 
my
>own.  The cover painting had a man's face in front of a spaceship that 
looked
>vaguely like the Enterprise.  Let's face it, any non-Trek book that makes 
you
>think of Trek when you look at it is probably bad news.  The jacket copy
>didn't
>help -- it made the story sound like the worst sort of hard SF, the kind 
where
>the characters exist only to move the machinery around.


Waaaa!   I have only one Philip Mann novel, and it's so dense that I just 
haven't yet been able to finish it (hey, some books you just have to be in 
the right mood - Attanasio as well, for instance), but I still feel 
justified in saying I love the thing and his writing generally.  Mine's 
called The Eye of the Queen, and describes the efforts of Contact Linguists 
(yep - no Space Patrol here) to make sense of an alien culture which may or 
may not be massively more advanced than ours.  It is BRILLIANT - and had it 
not been remaindered I'd probably never have bought it since the cover, 
while not as bad as that described above, made tyhe whole thing look like a 
pretty cheap adventure.  I wonder if Mann suffers from this all the time, 
and is only read by isolated indivduals who come across him by accident!

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 19 08:27:01 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Authors and Covers
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 13:17:48 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "[log in to unmask]" at May 18, 95 01:30:17 pm
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In the last mail [log in to unmask] said:
> 
>  
> We all have had some nightmare covers, but the worst I've ever seen were the
> old Doubleday hardcover two-color jobs, most of which were grotesque
> collages.  I've had six or seven of them.  If you want to see about the
> worst book jackets in history, get copies of my novel HEROICS or short story
> collection IRRATIONAL NUMBERS (as if you could!).  Wow.
>  
> GAE
> 
Yes indeed. They do have a certain - umm - grotesque charm. Just what on
earth does the cover of IRRATIONAL NUMBERS (aeroplanes zooming out of the 
eyesockets of a mask-like face, footballs sticking out if its cheeks)
mean? Definitely the sort of stuff to get a reader to pick the book up and 
open it, I don't say.

Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library
The University of Liverpool
051-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 19 08:32:58 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Reading Speed
Date: Fri, 19 May 95 13:21:00 BST
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Alexander:

> I guess that's an interesting note. I don't like reading itself, I like
>feeling the ideas and thinking about them. I view reading as acquiring 
data.
>I still have to process and interpret it. Its that second stage that drives
>me.

I have a problem with this, though maybe it helps to explain a division that 
appears to be emerging here.  Frankly I still can't help believing that 
anyone who just batters through Attanasio or Banks, say (or Joyce, or Eliot, 
or...) is just missing a good part of the point as I would see it.  Some 
writers write with a skill that appears to me to demand that the reader 
/feel/ the stuff.  "Doing" the language itself, as part of the ideas of the 
book overall.  You can take a photo of the beach, or a map or whatever, for 
a certain sort of precise record, or you can spend time physically exploring 
the caves and rockpools and running the textured sand through your fingers - 
which doesn't mean dawdling, since on any decent beach there are going to be 
a good few pools and it is bound to take time.  And once you're firmly in 
the habit of reading this way, then maybe you are inevitably going to apply 
the same treatment to lesser works unless you consciously remind yourself 
otherwise.  Either way, you are perhaps after something specific but 
different if you choose one of these sorts of reading against the other.

I can't think of a way of testing this - presumably everyone thinks that 
their own personal method of reading is ideal for their own needs, so it'll 
be the needs that cause the variation and these would be the hardest 
elements of the whole thing to identify and play with.  On the other hand, 
lit courses seem to have a way of fostering painstaking attention to detail 
and I have yet to come across one that advocates speed of reading as such. 
 :-)

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 19 08:56:30 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Journal of the Fantastic in the Arts
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 13:55:14 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" at May 17, 95 07:46:14 am
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In the last mail D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple said:
> 
> 
> I've been wondering about the availability of this US journal.  I believe 
> it's quarterly (or, at least, that it used to be).  I'm interested in 
> finding out whether it's still published and whether back-issues are 
> available.  I have the address Orion Publishing, 3959 Route 31, Suite 210, 
> Liverpool NY.  I'd like to know the following, if anyone is able to tell 
> me...
> 
> 1)   Is the thing still published?
> 
> 2)   Is this still the right snail-mail address?
> 
> 3)   Is there now an e-mail address to go with it, where I can make a query?
> 
> 4)   Is there (best of all, but I'd like to know the answer to the others 
> even if this information is available) a distribution address (preferably 
> including e-mail) for the journal in the UK?
> 
As far as I know it's still going although the last issue I saw was dated 
1991. The address in the magazine is as you say, but a flyer I have gives the 
correspondence address as 1157 temple Trail, Stow, Ohio 44224-2238. 
Nothing else I have from the IAFA gives any more information.

Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library
The University of Liverpool
051-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]



From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 19 09:04:29 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Philip Mann's WULFSYARN & Ugly Covers

Marina Frants mentioned this book as an example of a horrible cover that 
probably turned most of its potential readership away. As possibly the only 
other person on this list who read it (interestingly, I also read it as part 
of my job -- to review it for the SF Book Club), I can agree that it's a very 
interesting and well-constructed story. It's very reminiscent of Gene Wolfe's 
work, particularly in its interest in a distanced narrator (the story is of a 
doomed starship voyage and is told by a robot who is caring for the insane 
sole survivor). I thought the cover was just boring (I didn't particularly 
notice that the ship on the cover looked like the Enterprise, but, then 
again, I read the book before it had a cover) rather than actively off-
putting, but it obviously didn't help, since this is the first mention I've 
heard of it since.

After the horror stories our resident pros have been telling about the rotten 
covers they've gotten, I feel like I should stand up for the publishers' side 
of things, but I really don't have any good stories myself. My company's very 
lucky, since we sell directly to readers and so don't have sales/marketing 
people telling us what our book covers should look like. The last time I 
heard that our art director asked an artist to make a change in a finished 
piece was for the cover of our new edition of DUNE. The artist had made so 
many little ripples in the sand that they looked like a brain, and the AD had 
to ask him to tone it down a bit. 

Andrew Wheeler

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 19 09:32:13 1995
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Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 09:32:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Authors and Covers
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I know of one unusual case in which the author was pleased with the cover 
art:  Gregory Frost's thriller _The Pure Cold Light_ (1993).  The 
publishing rep noticed a postcard Frost was carrying and said, "Hey, that 
would make a great cover for your book," and the deed was done.  Frost 
didn't tell them that he'd painted the picture himself, because he knew 
they'd have yanked it immediately: can't allow the author to be happy with 
it, after all!

Fiona


From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 19 10:14:56 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Worst SF - Fritz Leibers The Wanderer
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Partly because Leiber was big at the time--The Big Time had won the Hugo
a couple of years earlier. Partly because The Wanderer was itself a large 
book, much longer than most of the current crop of sf novels and much more 
structurally complex.

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 19 10:29:58 1995
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Subject: Spaceships on Africa Novels

YIPES! Mike, tales like that make me think I should stick to short stories
and keep my day job. Or maybe I just shouldn't try to get published by Tor?
:)

Congratulations on the HOMer award, by the way. You earned it.

-Brenda

From @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Fri May 19 12:48:21 1995
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Date:         Fri, 19 May 95 12:45:37 EDT
From: @pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:[log in to unmask]
Subject:      Re: Reading Speed
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id:   <950519.124709.EDT.CAMILLE@TEMPLEVM>

I'm beginning to think of it as fractal reading.  The book is simply
longer for some of us than others, because we are reading it at a
different scale.  When we find the perfect book, we will read forever
and never reach the end, while others will finish it in the moment,
and wonder at it's clarity and beauty!

Camille

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 19 17:45:39 1995
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Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 17:44:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Arthur Hlavaty <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Reading Speed
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I know you're not supposed to say, "Yes, I agree" to the whole group, but 
it seems impossible to send a note to that effect to Camille.  Great image!

Arthur D. Hlavaty             [log in to unmask]
Church of the SuperGenius   In Wile E. We Trust

On Fri, 19 May 1995, it was written:

> I'm beginning to think of it as fractal reading.  The book is simply
> longer for some of us than others, because we are reading it at a
> different scale.  When we find the perfect book, we will read forever
> and never reach the end, while others will finish it in the moment,
> and wonder at it's clarity and beauty!
> 
> Camille
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 19 19:58:54 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Worst SF, Cover Art, + Humor
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 19 May 95 16:51:14 PDT
Message-Id: <9505192351.0E5EB0@martinw>
X-Mailer: SelectMAIL 1.2

I can't recall a "worst SF book I ever read"; I think instead of SF 
books that I probably won't ever re-read.  My habit of not reading 
anything unless it meets many criteria (has been recommended by several 
people I respect, is almost guaranteed to hold something of interest 
for me, etc.) has served me well in this, I think.  Life is too short 
and reading time far too valuable (as indicated in another thread) to 
waste time on bad books.  Of course, I risk not being exposed to a 
great book simply because I didn't pick it up at random, but then again 
I have access to a pool of SF readers who are all too happy to spout 
about all manner of interesting SF titles, so I don't worry about 
that too much ;-).

I'll make reference to the cover art thread; my book-selecting criteria 
allow me to totally ignore the image that's on the cover.  My feeling 
has always been that there's no consistent, substantial connection 
between what's on the cover and what's on the pages, and I think that 
theory's been validated, at least anecdotally, by the stories we've 
heard on this list so far.   

And speaking of bad SF, here's some humor I thought was appropriate to 
the subject.  If you'd rather not see this kind of thing posted to this 
group, just give me (or Colleen the almighty) a message.


-Martin S. Won

---------------------------------------


All true excerpts from the slushpile at
    "Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine."

                ***********

(Note: spelling, punctuation, and syntax are all as in the
original.)

Out of the dark void came what looked like a giant rabbit
followed by small rabbits which had looked as if they had
undergone a mutation with three ears and 2 tails.  They
discovered they were on Rabbitania.
--
Weston was known for the firm but genital hold he had on his
men.  It was one of the reasons he was chosen for this
mission over six other equally qualified men.
--
Freddy was in the habit of staring at Beverly's legs as they
peaked from her Susie Wong slit dresses.  She had a dozen of
them.
--
"Something must have happened, since it's not like her to
come back naked and not aware of anything."
--
The eyes of the braver animals ran down my neck and spine.
--
"Bastard!  I shall severe your soul."
--
The afternoon was very calm but consolidated.  The birds
were singing but were not blithesome.
--
He groped in his trousers and came up with a dirty piece of
trash which I thought he'd just throw away.
--
"Stand slow!" a voice rang out with hollow ubiquity.
--
When I thought of the poetics of such a confrontation in the
blackness of eternity, I laughed sardonically, in a dry
voice, to myself.
--
"Good morning, Anna, Lovely maid," Logo said in a soft voice
bowing slightly, "How nice to see your structured form again
today."
--
The two naked bodies, which were lying beneath the satin
sheets, were no longer the people whom everyone, who was
anyone, knew whenever reality was in existance.
--
"Oovil snetch," he growled in his mind.
--
My shouted words were lost in the damp chill, and my legs
were already beginning to bale out, filling my shoes
quickly.
--
The willowy king stood tehre with his usually sick
disposition.  From the faint light in the hallway, his
yellow glaring cat eyes pointed at him.
--
Kildo threw his waning arms around the large granite boulder.
--
Miles looked deep into those clear blue eyes who's debts
were infinite.
--
"Be good," he called after her as he bit back the tears in his eyes.
--
Sudenly, all the eyes in the room rose from their fixed
positions on the floor to stare at him.
--
Mona was on the liquilounge, her dark eyes pouring over him like warm
jello.
--
John wasn't at all surprised at the transformation of his
body into what he believed were light waves.
--
Fearless, as he was dumb, he walked over to the edge of the ship.
--
"Are the shields contoured to the ship" the computer asked
breathlessly.
--
The universe is a vast region of deep mystery steeped in
antiquity.
--
"Do you want to come over and have a gunfight?" I asked.
He seemed a bit loath to answer.
--
They were human in every way but they owned the necks,
heads, facial expressions were that of a chicken.
--
"Ejaculations aside, that's one hell of a package to
swallow!"
--
Of course, his eyes couldn't help but embrace the pool in
front of them.
--
Jake was not a man to show much emotion, but he found
himself supressing the urge to smile out loud.
--
Ashala's head felt like vermicelli slowly slipping off the
platter of her sholders.
--
A pool of surpressedd sweat started building under his
forehead.
--
Kincaid was an older man with sparse grey iron hair.
--
And he was damned attractive physically, too.  When she
looked at him she felt...unusual.
--
Instinctively, without thinking about it, he grabbed the
woman and hugged her and then gave her breasts a couple of
playful pinches.  "Commander please," she said as she
blushed and began yodeling.
--
Bucking and snorting like some psycholdelic bronco the man had
all he could do to keep his pecker from detaching from his
midsection and assuming an orbit some excessive distance from
the circumference of the planet.
--
He gazed at what appeared to be an invisable column coming from
an infinite distance.
--
Onion oil!  I couldn't imagine anyting worse than a daily
bath in onion oil.
--
He was tall, thin and bony, like a cadaver trying to remember
something, what was it?  oh yes!  I'm dead,
I shouldn't be walking around like this.
--
There would not be many more darknesses before Lyra became a
guardian, and if sheh was going to keep hes promises that
she would still boil boldy as a guardian, she might as well
practice.
--
Talan gestured at the controls.  "Overheating of the
glycgroms in the thermoperamulator.  You know how it is."
--
She is powdered, painted, and tearful, playing again one of
her greatest rolls.
--
The man spoke a foreign tonuge to them which they followed
with out question.
--
The faces of the children were tear stained and pained Zone
Paw to move on.
--
Are you going to go up t her and say, (you have to pardon me
I'm form another planet, Let's get together for a life
spand.)"  The dwarf came back strongly.  [all punctuation,
etc., *is* accurately transcribed.]
--
"Marry me my beautiful moonlight Luna to this sun-born,
non-stop make and viola!"
--
It seems occasionally events occur which had they not
happened no one would imagine they could.
--
It ws a planet spinning around Proxima Centauri,
an Earth like planet covered with an average of two
miles of water.
--
On Nov. 29, 2083 the object wold hit.  It's antimatter would
interact with ordinary matter on Earth and there would be an
explosion with the incredible force of 1000 megatons.  New
York City is doomed!
--
"Corporeal, we've got to do our best to keep this from the
public."
"I know sir, but its already too late."
What do you mean, the general inquired?
"While you were gone I let a curious private in
on the secret."
"We've got to stop him."
By now he's long gone.  Sorry sir."
"Oh no."
--
He saw the cute way her curly hair floated on her head.
--
Kree's voice grabbed my heart from behind.
--
A large serf of joy rode under Lisa's face.
--
Sublimely, this time, and just by feel, light was even
dimmer inside the war machine than merely beneath the
overhang that had been gutted out for it
keeping its resplendency restrained.
--
Despite the different meanings conjured up in each other's
head when the other spoke he knew that in this instance his
image was hers.
--
Then his head, which supported his bushy brown hair, turned
to look at his sister.
--
It was kind of bazaar for him to see his sister holding the
arm of a semi-automatic machine gun.
--
Most people who have seen Dr. Robinson describes him as a
strange looking man with coal black hare and a a coal black
mustache.
--
I caress her cheek.  She shutters.
--
He whetted his lips.



From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 19 22:16:44 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Sat, 20 May 95 02:07:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Resnick Glorified
X-Genie-Id: 3103564
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

I was asked to write some bio material for the program book of a convention
called Conquest, at which Mike Resnick, for some unexplained reason, is
Guest of Honor.  I did my best to praise Mike to the skies, which is what's
expected in these pieces; however, anyone who knows me well can attest that
I am innately an honest, truthful, and honorable person.  I cannot tell a
lie--Mike bribed me to say nice things about him.
 
I upload this here so y'all can get to know a little better the Fiction
Factory That Walks Like A Man.
 
     After all, what is there to say about Mike Resnick?
Plenty.  And I sure wish I could, but we've signed a non-aggression pact
because David Gerrold has massed his forces on our common borders.  Mike and
I have a lot in common because he lives in Ohio and I was born in Ohio, and
he's lived in Chicago and I've been through there a few times, too.  And
David Gerrold is one of those California people.
     Anyway, Mike Resnick is fast becoming one of the old dinosaurs of the
SF world--and, Mike, you know I mean that in just the most complimentary
way.  I say "old dinosaur" when I speak of an established writer of great
stature, such as, oh, Jerry Sohl or Otis Adelbert Kline or Ed. Earl Repp.
Truthfully, Mike fully deserves to be included in the company of those
scientifiction luminaries.
     Mike certainly has all the qualifications.  For one thing, he's old.
He's even older than I am, and I have no doubt that he'll stay that way for
some time to come.  As for his literary achievements, he has many.  He's
written lots of books and lots of short fiction, and I'm almost certain that
someone has probably paid enough attention to compile a bibliography, should
you wish to find some of Mike's actual titles.
     Not only has Mike written a ton of stuff--this is amazing--he's also
collected a good share of awards from both his readers and his peers,
everything from some collie dog thing that I don't know much about to the
Hugo and Nebula Awards, which don't come cheap, believe me.  Mike has always
been one of the most thoroughly and reliably entertaining writers in the SF
world.  Still, not satisfied with being merely popular, he has added
critical acclaim as his literary skills and ambitions continued to develop.
It hardly seems fair.
     Of course, I have to say that Mike has worked for his success, and has
earned every bit of it.  The fact that, for instance, he knew both Jules
Verne and H. G. Wells personally may have given him a slightly unfair
advantage over the rest of us, but I for one pay that no mind.  Mike is a
kind, generous, and gracious man.  He has passed along the gifts he learned
at the feet of The Great Ones--he's responsible for buying the first
published stories of a good many beginning writers for inclusion in the
anthologies he edits.  I've often heard him giving the benefit of his vast
experience to a new writer, saying things like "This opening line is just
terrible.  Here's how _Jules_ would've written it."  Or "You have this
character behaving stupidly.  This is what _H. G._ would've done."  It's
pretty damn awe-inspiring.
     The fact that these Founders of Modern Science Fiction (I don't mean
Mike here; I'm talking about J. and H. G.) unduly influenced Mike's own
writing is something we can afford to overlook.  So what if _Santiago_ is a
thin copy of Wells' _San Diego_?  So what if "Ninety-Nine Views of Olduvai
Gorge" (I know it's not "Ninety-Nine," but it's some number and I don't feel
like going into the other room to check) is a meager retelling of Verne's
"Vingt-et-Un Vus de la Ravine Neander"?  I'm sure that the very day Mike
gets his first original idea, he will turn it into a superlative story.  I
have that much faith in him.
     I'm proud to have known Mike for many years, and to be counted one of
his friends.  I cheer for him every time he's nominated for an award
(unless, of course, someone else in the category is noticeably cuter)(hey,
it could happen).  I look forward, along with the rest of our SF community,
to whatever novels and short fiction Mike presents us with in the future.
     It's a sad thing, really, that Mike's so very old, and that soon he'll
have to retire and hand his vaunted eminent position over to some younger,
brighter author-with-Ohio-connections.  We'll miss you, Mike (and by the
way, can you take Connie Willis with you?).

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 19 22:41:40 1995
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Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 19:41:14 -0700
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask] (deborah schoeneman)
Subject: Re: Alvin Maker
To: [log in to unmask]

You wrote: 
>
>According to a friend who's in the publishing business, Tor will be 
>putting out the fourth book in Orson Scott Card's Alvin Maker series 
>this fall. It's titled "Alvin, Journeyman" and will be in cloth for 
>$23.95...I have the ISBN if anyone wants it.
>
>Now all those of us who've been waiting years for this will have to go 

>back and reread the first three books...! 
>
>-joan
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
><D. Joan [log in to unmask]>
>>Give sorrow words: the grief that does not speak................<
><Whispers the o'erfraught heart and bids it break................>
>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
>
I would like to know when this book is being published.  I just 
finished Ender's Game; and wow, did I love it so much!!! You?  
Interested in discussing Card's works?  Know anywhere else such a 
thread occurs?

Thanks!!!

Debbie

From [log in to unmask]  Sat May 20 00:29:55 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Please, I Insist
X-Genie-Id: 3808867
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

Alexander (et al.):
 
Please call me George.  I'm uncomfortable about being called "Mr. Effinger."
To me, that was my dad, and he passed away a while ago.  In my mind, I'm
still a vibrant 25 years old.
 
It is to laugh.

From [log in to unmask]  Sat May 20 12:40:46 1995
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From: [log in to unmask] (set chaos/total)
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Worst SF book
X-Vms-To: SMTP%"[log in to unmask]"
X-Vms-Cc: NABADM

I second the nomination of THE DIFFERENCE ENGINE.  Read the whole thing once,
then went back and skimmed it.  Still didn't get it.  Had the boyfriend read it.
He couldn't explain it to me either.  We both found it boring and discontinuous. 
The premise was great but the implementation seemed irrelevant.  I have read the
rest of Gibson's work and enjoyed it greatly, but I am not familiar with
Sterling's.  After this experience I am not sure I will bother to read anything
else by Sterling.

Another book I disliked intensely was Michael Moorcock's first (?) novel that
became a series, but I can't remember the name of it.  I wonder why.

As for DAHLGREN I was enthralled, but I can easily see why people can't stand
it.

N.A. Bogart

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From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Resnick Glorified
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask] 

Among his many achievements you forgot to mention his daughter Laura, who 
is off on a lit career of her own.

When I saw her for the first time in an old old book (1991 probably) last 
week I was forced to conclude that Resnick must be a much older guy than 
I thought.

>From his postings I had pictured him as a spunky young fellow.  And now I 
learn he is a contemporary of the author of "Robur le conquerant" and 
"Voyage au centre de la terre".

Au revoir!


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> Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 00:20:16 +0400
> From: Serge Berezhnoy <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Russian alternate histories
>
>
> Then there were several works of Andrey Lazarchuk. The novel INOYE NEBO
> (ANOTHER HEAVEN) was the hit. The world where Hitler killed in 1943 and
> Hering victoriously finished WWII. And in 1991 huge The Third Reich include

- I think you must mean "Goering" (you thought it was one of those  
transliterations where an "h" gets lost in Russian, didn't you?)


--
Tim Slater, B.A. (Nat. Sci.), MITI
[log in to unmask]     CIS: 1000024,2546
Eglinger Str. 15A, D-82544 Egling-Moosham, GERMANY
_____    __          phone: +49-8176-1393   fax: -1722
  |     |__          Oeffentlich bestellter und allgemein beeidigter
  | RAN  __| LATER   Dolmetscher und Uebersetzer fuer die englische Sprache

## CrossPoint v3.02 ##

From [log in to unmask]  Sat May 20 18:06:54 1995
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Date: Sat, 20 May 1995 18:06:54 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Accurate topic lines, please

Please, please, please, everyone:

Update those subject lines instead of slavishly adhering to the original!

Why has a thread of comments about Babylon 5 (for instance) continued to
appear under a "Star Trek" line...when the contents of the postings make no
reference to Trek?

If you want those of us with no time to do more than skim the topics list to
read your comments, take a second to put a brief (accurate) header on your
remarks.

Best wishes,

Charles Meyerson

From [log in to unmask]  Sat May 20 20:48:47 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Card's "Alvin Maker" stories...read by the author

I'm just now listening to Card's own reading of the first book in the series,
"Seventh Son." This is my first exposure to his work and I'm only about a
third of the way through it...but it's delightful listening.

>From the same company: Card's "Ender's Game" and "Speaker for the Dead"; and
LeGuin's "Wizard of Earthsea" trilogy, to name just a few of the SF(!) titles
on the list. 

Available from local libraries...or for purchase or rental directly from "The
Literate Ear," 1-800-777-8327. (And if you buy a tape for donation to a
library, they'll give you the tax-deductible receipt and a free rental of
your choice.)

Charles Meyerson

From [log in to unmask]  Sat May 20 21:50:16 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Resnick Glorified
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Actually, I am a young 53. George is an ancient 48.

Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Sun May 21 00:42:01 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
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Subject: RE: Worst SF books

In a message dated 95-05-17 13:52:13 EDT, Gary  wrote:

>.
>
>Anyway, give me RAH's THE PAST THROUGH TOMORROW (Future History 
>anthology) anytime, and I'll re-read it through and through!
>
>
>Gary

Same here!  I got my Science Fiction Book Club copy on March 2 1967 and it's
been one of my favorites ever since.  At 17 going on 18, I was very much
taken with Heinlein and had been for a couple of years.  To have 667 pages of
him drop into my lap all at once was quite a heady experience.  All for the
princely sum of $1.98.  Wow.  ;)

As for *worst*, that's tough.  I've been thinking about that ever since this
thread started, and if I've read anything that was absolutely TERRIBLE, I
have mercifully forgotten what it was.  They say the brain tends to forget
pain.  ;) 

Al

[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Sun May 21 00:42:09 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
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Subject: Re: Worst SF book

In a message dated 95-05-19 07:12:08 EDT, [log in to unmask] (Richard
Wallace)  wrote:

>The second is a book other people consider
>a classic: Heinlein's STARSHIP TROOPERS, the content of which I
>found respulsive in the extreme. 

Forgive my curiosity, but what about STARSHIP TROOPERS repulsed you so?

Al (who's beginning to think it's time to reread some Heinlein again) Evans

[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Sun May 21 02:07:17 1995
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From: Fran Skene <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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On Thu, 18 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> I have two entries into the Worst SF book category.  One of these books is the
> one and only sf novel I've never been able to get through, even though I
> started it 2 or 3 times.  That book is "The Dispossessed" by LeGuin.  I know
> how much people love it.  I just couldn't get through it.  Granted, this was
> many years ago, so I may be able to get through it now, but I've got too many
> books in the house now that I haven't yet tried to read for me to go pick this
> one back up.

***
I found when I read it the first time that it moved more slowly than, 
say, The Lathe of Heaven, but that I was well-rewarded in the end - it's 
such a substantial story with a setting that becomes absolutely real.  
Especially, The Dispossessed has a beginning paragraph that draws me 
right in every time:

"There was a wall. It did not look important. It was built of uncut rocks
roughly mortared. An adult could look right over it, and even a child
could climb it. Where it crossed the roadway, instead of having a gate it
degenerated into mere geometry, a line, an idea of boundary. But the idea
was real. It was important. For seven generations there had been nothing
in the world more important than that wall." 

***

> The other book came on a recommendation from a book review.  I used to
> subscribe to Galaxy when a) I was a teenager, and b) it was on its last
> legs.  Before Spider Robinson took over the book reviewing chores for
> Galaxy, Theodore Sturgeon reviewed books for that magazine (at least I
> think it was Galaxy). Anyway, he said that the best sf novel ever
> written was "Dahlgren" by Delany. So I went out and bought it.  It took
> me an entire summer to read (1976 I think it was), and to this day I
> don't know why I bothered to finish it.  I know that "Dahlgren" is one
> of those books one either loves or hates, and it has generated a ton of
> discussion in various forums over the last 20 years, but I just couldn't
> get into it.  But I finished it.  Not a smart policy.

***
I kept a copy of Dahlgren by my bed, and read until I fell asleep each
night - about 15 minutes.  After a month of so of this, I finally finished
the book.  I enjoyed those 15 minute chunks because every sentence is
well-crafted, but the overwriting took the life out of the novel as a
whole.  Best bed-time reading I ever had. 

Cheers,   Fran


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fran Skene                                      a gofer on the
[log in to unmask]                                electronic cowpath....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

From [log in to unmask]  Sun May 21 02:33:25 1995
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From: Fran Skene <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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On Fri, 19 May 1995, Richard Wallace Oberdorfer wrote:

> I have a couple of titles that simply left me cold -- although
> I understand other people loved them.  The first is THE
> DIFFERENCE ENGINE, an alternate history the goes off in too many
> directions at once and really never seems to take the time to
> pull things together. The second is a book other people consider
> a classic: Heinlein's STARSHIP TROOPERS, the content of which I
> found respulsive in the extreme.  While there are elements in
> Heinlein's other books that may bother me, the other novels I
> have read all have some redeeming charateristics. TROOPERS made
> me wonder if the whole thing could have been a
> reverse-psychology joke.

***
I didn't like The Difference Engine as much as the others, but any Gibson
story is worth rereading, and I've read it two or three times.  Steampunk
is hard to do well, I think, but this book is still very readable. 

I read Starship Troopers when it first came out, and I remember not liking
the plot.  Just not my cup of tea.  One blip in an otherwise good series
of early Heinlein novels. 

Cheers,   Fran


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fran Skene                                      a gofer on the
[log in to unmask]                                electronic cowpath....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------



From [log in to unmask]  Sun May 21 07:17:12 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Worst SF, Cover Art, + Humor
Date: Sun, 21 May 95 12:16:00 BST
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[log in to unmask]:

>Life is too short
>and reading time far too valuable (as indicated in another thread) to
>waste time on bad books.  Of course, I risk not being exposed to a
>great book simply because I didn't pick it up at random, but then again
>I have access to a pool of SF readers who are all too happy to spout
>about all manner of interesting SF titles, so I don't worry about
>that too much ;-).

For purposes of reading pleasure I agree entirely, but there can be other 
considerations.  A while ago, for example, I took a strong interest in 
Gothic revivalist fiction, much of which is painfully awful although the 
novels concerned did (in my opinion. anyhow) help to transform a number of 
ideals from classical literature into some of what we'd now call SF, fantasy 
or horror.  Whether this idea is correct or woefully misguided, it was still 
necessary to read with interest some truly horrible stuff.  I'd guess it's 
similar to the situation of someone making a study of, say, soap opera.  You 
don't examine it simply to show it's awful (and then only to some people) - 
you just have to try to take an objective view of Baywatch etc in context...


>[...] the cover art thread; my book-selecting criteria
>allow me to totally ignore the image that's on the cover.  My feeling
>has always been that there's no consistent, substantial connection
>between what's on the cover and what's on the pages, and I think that
>theory's been validated, at least anecdotally, by the stories we've
>heard on this list so far.

Also generally true, I'd say, but there may still be subtle effects going 
on.  When I was much younger (that's my excuse...) I was rather fond for a 
while of the Lensman series.  The Panther editions I was reading generally 
had predictable cover paintings suggesting big spaceships in even bigger 
spaces, with the exception of Children of the Lens (I think), the cover of 
which looks for all the world like a poor photo of a cheap model with some 
fairy lights out of focus in the background.  Now, by the time I got to this 
volume I was already beginning (redemption, at last...) to see the whole 
series as no more than a cheery romp, but all the same I still retain an 
impression of this particular episode of the series as being somewhat more 
naff than the rest.  I've very little idea these days what actually happened 
in the story, but the physical presentation of the thing seems to have 
affected my assessment of it overall.  Then again I'm also the kind who 
can't help preferring the experience of reading a hardback rather than a 
paperback (other things being equal), and I have real trouble shaking the 
idea that a record sounds better after the artist has signed the cover....


>And speaking of bad SF, here's some humor I thought was appropriate to
>the subject.  If you'd rather not see this kind of thing posted to this
>group, just give me (or Colleen the almighty) a message.

Personally I'm grateful for all that - thanks!

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Sun May 21 07:37:17 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Worst SF book
Date: Sun, 21 May 95 12:36:00 BST
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>I second the nomination of THE DIFFERENCE ENGINE.  Read the whole thing 
once,
>then went back and skimmed it.  Still didn't get it.  Had the boyfriend 
read
>it.
>He couldn't explain it to me either.  We both found it boring and
>discontinuous.
>The premise was great but the implementation seemed irrelevant.  I have 
read
>the
>rest of Gibson's work and enjoyed it greatly, but I am not familiar with
>Sterling's.  After this experience I am not sure I will bother to read
>anything
>else by Sterling.

Sterling is very funny.  I don't mean he's a comedy author - except perhaps 
some bits about the CIA in the non-fiction The Hacker Crackdown.  He's just 
very sharp.  I'd recommend not giving up on him.

Anyway I liked The Difference Engine, though not hugely.  Then again my 
copy's a hardback, for which I have a naive weekness, so what can I say...?


>Another book I disliked intensely was Michael Moorcock's first (?) novel 
that
>became a series, but I can't remember the name of it.  I wonder why.

Redundant comment number 3487, 'cos everyone probably knows this as well... 
 A lot of Moorcock's stuff for a certain period was cranked out at what some 
might regard as absurd speed and without undue regard for literary 
amazingness in order to keep New Worlds magazine afloat financially. 
 Personally I'm not very impressed by most of his work anyway (with a few 
vivid exceptions), but that, at least, accounts for some of the overall low 
points.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Sun May 21 08:15:50 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Worst SF, again...
Date: Sun, 21 May 95 13:14:00 BST
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On mature reflection (much as that pains me) I have to offer Donaldson for 
this award.  Personally I'm quite impressed by the Covenant books, 
particularly considering that it seems they were his very personal and 
pretty successful (IM-not-exactly-HO) attempt to deal with issues that he 
grew up with.  From what little I've heard, I even like the gentleman 
himself (though that is of course by the way).  On the other hand I just 
cannot understand what possessed him to write the Mordant's Need books.  I 
really liked the idea of magic as "Imaging" (I think that was it), but that, 
great though it is and nicely rendered, is just no excuse for two novels of 
otherwise shattering rubbish.  They read (more so as they go on) like some 
of the worst D&D sessions it has ever been my misfortune to experience - 
with added, but inexplicable, sex.  I just don't understand why they exist. 
 I suppose I've read worse, technically, but these two are a tragic 
disappointment.

Incidentally, I've kind of lost momentum (too many distractions, for months) 
with the Gap series and will have to start it again, but the general 
consensus among those who have persisted with it seems to be that it 
improves as it goes on in that you can get a clearer view of what he's been 
getting at from the beginning - which I guess might mean that it's actually 
well put-together.  Or not.  Better read it, I suppose...

              Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Sun May 21 16:54:09 1995
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Date: Sun, 21 May 1995 16:54:09 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Reading Speed

I'm not copying your whole message, as it is long. I am reffering to Dave's
Message of 5/19 on Reading Speed.
 You seem to believe that it isn't possible to enjoy wordcraft if you read
fast. Well I can.
 You seem to believe that it isn't possible to enjoy a book if you read fast.
I can.
 When I say I don't like reading. Reading in and of itself is a mean to an
end. To use your analogy I hate traveling. I like going places, and I like
enjoying the places I go, but I hate the actual travel. The books feed me
ideas, they fuel my imagination. That is more important than anything else
one can get from a text. I think that there si a lot to be seen in  the mere
wordcraft, but please remember the purpose

Hi DAVE!!!

>himself (though that is of course by the way).  On the other hand I just
>cannot understand what possessed him to write the Mordant's Need books.  I
>really liked the idea of magic as "Imaging" (I think that was it), but that,
>great though it is and nicely rendered, is just no excuse for two novels of
>otherwise shattering rubbish.  They read (more so as they go on) like some
>of the worst D&D sessions it has ever been my misfortune to experience -
>with added, but inexplicable, sex.  I just don't understand why they exist.
> I suppose I've read worse, technically, but these two are a tragic
>disappointment.
>

Hmmm....Dave - you still didn't give a good enough reason to label this
as the worst book. In fact, both books were meant to be 1 book in the
beginning, but as a result, were split. I have dabbled in D&D and still
don't see the resemblance between the rpg and Mordant's Need. After the
depressive-as-hell Covenant series, MORDANT's NEED comes across as quite
light-hearted, humourous, and etc.The plot is tight, not a lot of loose
ends that I can see, the characters are believable. If we were to talk
rubbish - I would nominating dozens of 50'ish pulp writers which were
a lot worse and have nothing common with today's writers. In fact, I
consider Mordant's Need as one of the best fantasy/romance books I'v read
in a long time (besides Tolkien, Jordan).


BTW, has anyone read THE BAKER's BOY by J.V Jones? I swear if I
ever see another Darrel Sweet cover like that, I'll tear it up. Hell,
it's damaging the marketing of the book - I was almost tempted not to buy
the bloody thing based on the cover. But anyway, the story was pretty
good - a bit graphic on the violence and sex, but hey, the Middle
Ages weren't exactly that nice either (nor the Inquistion for that fact)

                                                  - Sean -

From [log in to unmask]  Sun May 21 18:28:32 1995
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Date: Sun, 21 May 1995 15:27:45 -0700
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask] (deborah schoeneman)
Subject: Re: Card's "Alvin Maker" stories...read by the author
To: [log in to unmask]

You wrote: 
>
>I'm just now listening to Card's own reading of the first book in the 
series,
>"Seventh Son." This is my first exposure to his work and I'm only 
about a
>third of the way through it...but it's delightful listening.
>
>>From the same company: Card's "Ender's Game" and "Speaker for the 
Dead"; and
>LeGuin's "Wizard of Earthsea" trilogy, to name just a few of the SF(!) 
titles
>on the list. 
>
Absolutely wonderful, isn't he?  I just finished "Ender's Game", 
reading it, that is.  Care to discuss here or on TAM-LIT?

HAPPY READING!!!!

Debbie
>Available from local libraries...or for purchase or rental directly 
from "The
>Literate Ear," 1-800-777-8327. (And if you buy a tape for donation to 
a
>library, they'll give you the tax-deductible receipt and a free rental 
of
>your choice.)
>
>Charles Meyerson
>


From [log in to unmask]  Sun May 21 19:35:47 1995
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From: Alex Dunlap <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Resnick Glorified
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I saw a picture of you in a book about SF authors. I know what you look like.
Nancy Dunlap

On Sun, 21 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Actually, I am a young 53. George is an ancient 48.
> 
> Mike Resnick
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Sun May 21 21:04:20 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Robert Horley)
Subject: Johnny Mnemonic Movie

Hi,

I just recieved this post from Michael Hart at Project Gutenberg, and
thought the members of this list might like to see it.  Looks like they
should have let Gibson write the script after all.  These movie people are
such idiots.  They'll spend millions of dollars to get some empty headed
bimbo to pose half naked on the screen, but they are unwilling to spend a
fraction of this amount to to let the originator of the story write the script.

Regards
Robert Horley, Phanat Nikhom, Chonburi, Thailand


>Sender: Project Gutenberg Email List <[log in to unmask]>
>From: "Michael S. Hart" <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject:      Ask Dr. Internet
>To: Multiple recipients of list GUTNBERG
<[log in to unmask]>
>Content-Length: 12848
>
>"Ask Dr. Internet"
>
>3rd Week of May, 1995

>(cut other items)

>Do You Know Anything About "Johnny Mnemonic?"
>
>In response to questions about "Johnny Mnemonic," the upcoming movie, from
>William [Neuromancer] Gibson's short story [in "Burning Chrome and OMNI as
>I recall], we managed to send one of our virtual friends to the prepremier
>only about 36 hours ago, and, while I will still be going, I am afraid the
>responses were not good from both our reviewer and the entire audience.  A
>cover story in the just out June WIRED also manages not to say anything of
>any relevance about it.
>
>Our reviewer goes to many such screenings, and relates that audience are a
>mix of reviewers and interested parties. . .in this case people from mixes
>of computer and science fiction areas. . .and usually voice their opinions
>in a fairly obvious manner.  I will try to get permission to say more, but
>for now, I can only say there was a deafening silence when there should be
>deafening applause, and others noises when there should be none.
Robert Horley
Phanat Nikhom, Chonburi, Thailand


From cstu  Mon May 22 07:28:14 1995
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Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 07:28:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Robert Horley: Johnny Mnemonic Movie
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Sorry, problems with the listproc again.
Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]

Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 08:04:35 +0700
From: [log in to unmask] (Robert Horley)
Subject: Johnny Mnemonic Movie

Hi,

I just recieved this post from Michael Hart at Project Gutenberg, and
thought the members of this list might like to see it.  Looks like they
should have let Gibson write the script after all.  These movie people are
such idiots.  They'll spend millions of dollars to get some empty headed
bimbo to pose half naked on the screen, but they are unwilling to spend a
fraction of this amount to to let the originator of the story write the script.

Regards
Robert Horley, Phanat Nikhom, Chonburi, Thailand


>Sender: Project Gutenberg Email List <[log in to unmask]>
>From: "Michael S. Hart" <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject:      Ask Dr. Internet
>To: Multiple recipients of list GUTNBERG
<[log in to unmask]>
>Content-Length: 12848
>
>"Ask Dr. Internet"
>
>3rd Week of May, 1995

>(cut other items)

>Do You Know Anything About "Johnny Mnemonic?"
>
>In response to questions about "Johnny Mnemonic," the upcoming movie, from
>William [Neuromancer] Gibson's short story [in "Burning Chrome and OMNI as
>I recall], we managed to send one of our virtual friends to the prepremier
>only about 36 hours ago, and, while I will still be going, I am afraid the
>responses were not good from both our reviewer and the entire audience.  A
>cover story in the just out June WIRED also manages not to say anything of
>any relevance about it.
>
>Our reviewer goes to many such screenings, and relates that audience are a
>mix of reviewers and interested parties. . .in this case people from mixes
>of computer and science fiction areas. . .and usually voice their opinions
>in a fairly obvious manner.  I will try to get permission to say more, but
>for now, I can only say there was a deafening silence when there should be
>deafening applause, and others noises when there should be none.
Robert Horley
Phanat Nikhom, Chonburi, Thailand



From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 22 05:02:09 1995
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	(1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA01061; Mon, 22 May 1995 11:01:42 +0200
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 11:01:06 +0200 (METDST)
From: Paolo Piccioni <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Worst SF book
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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As I am the starter of this little loved thread, I have to give you my 
personal opinion about your answers. It seems that masters like Heinlein, 
Leiber, LeGuin and others, have made their own unreadable book.
Well, I think that there's no author who has writed always good books. 
If not, that author could be the subject of a good SF book. (A writer who 
never make mistakes...isn't a great idea?).
Said this, I have my own worst SF books to mention here (don't worry George, 
none of your works are here!):
1) _Stations of the tide_ by Michael Swanwick.
   I read it in three months. Results? Now is rubbish.
2) _The warrior's apprentice_ by Lois McMaster Bujold.
   Where is _Barrayar_?!?
3) _Transition_ by Vonda N. McIntyre.
   A confused plot, with too many characters.
But these three are nothing, compared with _The black throne_ by Fred 
Saberhagen & Roger Zelazny. I bought it in late 1992. How can I finish it? 
I tried, and I tried, and I tried, and I still trying, but there's no way. 
Anyone know how to read it? Tell me!

P.S. As english is my 2nd language, probably I writed some 
mistakes...don't take care of them. I hope to have your forgiveness!


                   |~~_________________________
            /___ __| | All men are equal, but  |       Paolo Piccioni
           |__| |  | | someone is more equal   |   
           |    |  | | than others....         |   [log in to unmask]
           '-()-'--'-'-()()--------------()()--'


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 22 08:55:24 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Reading Speed
Date: Mon, 22 May 95 13:20:00 BST
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Alexander (I think):

> You seem to believe that it isn't possible to enjoy wordcraft if you read
>fast. Well I can.
> You seem to believe that it isn't possible to enjoy a book if you read 
fast.
>I can.


Not at all - and I'm sorry if either of these seemed to be central to what I 
was saying, since both contentions, were they there, would clearly annoy a 
number of readers here.

In fact I am now more than ever inclined to believe that an examination of 
what we all really, personally, individually get out of reading is probably 
beyond the scope of this medium or discussion simply through being largely 
untestable.  Evidently different people get different mixtures of the same 
or different pleasures out of reading.  Indeed some of the pleasures can be 
to do with reading stuff that isn't really very pleasurable in itself.  For 
their own reasons, people will read different things at different speeds. 
 Me, I like travelling as well as arriving!

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 22 09:20:01 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Worst SF, again - Mordant's Need
Date: Mon, 22 May 95 13:36:00 BST
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Encoding: 60 TEXT
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Sean Alan Wallace <[log in to unmask]>, regarding Mordant's Need.

>Hmmm....Dave - you still didn't give a good enough reason to label this
>as the worst book. In fact, both books were meant to be 1 book in the
>beginning, but as a result, were split. I have dabbled in D&D and still
>don't see the resemblance between the rpg and Mordant's Need.

Sorry - I got carried away again and didn't really explain this.  The 
apparently inevitable slide towards a series of encounters with arbitrary 
monsters each of which could be defeated through a particularly (and 
rapidly-discovered) cunning trick coupled withj a spot of hack'n'slashery 
was what I had in mind.  It's a comparatively small bit of the book(s), but 
for me it undermined the rest of it.  I think the whole story about the 
squeaky alien (forgotten his name) actually reminded me of the same sort of 
thing in the sense that it all seemed there entirely to push the story 
along, no matter what liberties have to be taken to force it all into place. 
 (You KNOW, as soon as you see him, that that power armour is going to be of 
some, probably pivotal, significance later on.  You also know that it can't 
be allowed still be in existence/working order at the end.  Narrows things 
down considerably.  The wedding, on the other hand, is just funny.)


>After the
>depressive-as-hell Covenant series, MORDANT's NEED comes across as quite
>light-hearted, humourous, and etc.The plot is tight, not a lot of loose
>ends that I can see, the characters are believable. If we were to talk
>rubbish - I would nominating dozens of 50'ish pulp writers which were
>a lot worse and have nothing common with today's writers.

All depends on the criteria and context, you're right.  I'd hope that 
there's a place for recognising something that should never have seen the 
light of day in its current form.  [Actually, that reminds me, wasn't it 
you, Sean, that was talking about a "Chthon Award" with this sort of thing 
in mind?  If so, then we seem to have found an axis of symmetry across which 
we can throw things at each other!]  MN, to me, reads as if it was lashed 
together (possibly, though I hadn't considered it before, partly as a 
conscious departure from the Covenant books) in a hurry and for the most 
part I couldn't stand the characters.  I quite liked the handling of the 
central two, although their respective liberations from their pasts were a 
bit obvious and made the book as a whole that much more transparently 
predictable.  I /loved/ the sporadically mad old fellow, and got the feeling 
that Donaldson had really delved into that one and enjoyed it.  And I still 
think that Imaging was the best and most consistent new basis for magic that 
I've come across for ages.  (Pity about the story around it...!)

Oh, all right!  There are things about this book that are OK and it just 
doesn't exhibit the relentless failure to communicate as some of the stuff 
you mention above.  Then again very little does, so I think I'll let my 
nomination stand, just for variety, even if the competition is somewhat 
massed!


>In fact, I
>consider Mordant's Need as one of the best fantasy/romance books I'v read
>in a long time (besides Tolkien, Jordan).

I might even have to go along with that.  Terry Brooks springs to mind...

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 22 09:44:49 1995
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Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 06:27:04 -0700
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Geston, Mark S.
To: [log in to unmask], Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
X-Mailer: AIR Mail 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)

Mark S. Geston is alive and well. He wrote Seige of Wonder, Out of the Mouth 
of the Dragon, Lords of the Starship. He is currently working on a new novel. 
Anyone interest in a Geston fan club, please email me. I have enjoyed the 
above novels, and have found them of high quality. Has anyone else read these?

Mr. Geston is now an Attorney in Boise, ID.

I would like the phone number and address for two publishers.

	Gregg Press
	Thor Press
Thank you,

Joe de Beauchamp
Seattle, Wa. 
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 22 09:49:03 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Date: 22 May 95  09:43 EST
Subject: Need help in finding a short story
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id:  <[log in to unmask]>

I need help in finding a particular sci-fi short story that once 
appeared in Playboy.  I do not remember the author or even the title 
but I can give you the story line:

        In the future people have the ability to travel back in time 
to the Prehistoric Era to hunt dinosaurs.  So as to not change the 
course of history, only dinosaurs that would have died that same day 
are hunted.  On one particular excursion, a fellow on the hunting trip 
becomes afraid of a T-Rex and accidentally falls off the specially 
made platform and crushes a butterfly.  Thinking nothing of it, he 
gets back onto the platform and continues the hunt.  Of course, when 
he returns to the future he finds his world is now full of hatred and 
chaos.  And all because he killed one butterfly.

        I read this story back in my teenage years when I was into 
those types of magazines, but now, of course, I don't have that issue 
it appeared in anymore.  If someone is familiar with this story, is 
this short story available in any anthology?  I frequent used book 
stores and pick up older sci-fi collections but have never found the 
"butterfly" story.

Thank you in advance,
Michael Moncey ([log in to unmask])


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 22 10:38:51 1995
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From: John Jamison <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject:  Need help in finding a short story -Reply

Mike-I have read that story also.  It was in an
issue of Colliers magazine that my parents had
saved.  (they never throw anything away).  I
am sure it was probably printer elsewhere.  I
-he said ashamedly-cannot remember author or
title either.


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 22 10:45:56 1995
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Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 07:28:10 -0700
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Three Stigma of Palmer Eldritch
To: [log in to unmask]
X-Mailer: AIR Mail 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)

I am finishing the book The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch by P. Dick which 
was done in 1964. I am very interested in the opinions of this book. I 
understand that it has a high price tag on 1st edition copy, well over $1000. 

I find the text interesting. It plays on reality versus perception. It is a 
story how colonist on Mars, who are bored with the mundane, take a drug called 
Can-D. This drug allows the user to experience new realities, not just 
hallucinations. Palmer Eldritch returns from a distant star system with a 
improved drug Chew-Z. There is a group of rich people who are artifically 
evolved through a method and save the world. There is a group of person, which 
the rich hire, which do precognition work and foretell the future. Probably 
Dick's best novel that I have read. 


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 22 10:58:57 1995
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Date: 22 May 1995 10:59:10 EST
Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
From: "CHRISTINE T CALLAHAN" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: SHORT STORY REQUEST
To: [log in to unmask]
Comment: RE: SHORT STORY REQUEST

Michael Moncey asks  about  a  short story featuring time changes 
caused by stepping on a butterfly during a dinosaur hunt. Off the 
top  of  my  head  that sounds like  a Bradbury story  titled  (I 
*think*)  "The  Sound  of  Thunder".  It  was  in  one   of   his 
collections. but I forget which--GOLDEN APPLES OF THE SUN, maybe? 
Anyway, I'm 99 and 99  one hundredths percent sure it's Bradbury. 
Good story, as I recall (too many years since I reread him�) 
     Chris Callahan                                               

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 22 11:05:04 1995
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From: [log in to unmask] (Dan Trefethen)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Need help in finding a short story
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 08:05:03 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]> from "[log in to unmask]" at May 22, 95 10:30:09 am
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The dinosaur story (where the guy crushes a butterfly) is "A Sound of 
Thunder", by Ray Bradbury.  It's one of the earliest and best examples of 
the "ripple effect" theory of time travel.  I don't know where it was 
originally printed, but you can find it reprinted in Bradbury 
collections, I'm sure.

--Dan Trefethen
[log in to unmask]

From @INDST.INDSTATE.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Mon May 22 11:26:38 1995
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From: "EJUSERS" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Mon, 22 May 1995 10:25:45 EST
Subject:       Re: Need help in finding a short story
Priority: normal
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>

"Sound of Thunder" and GOLDEN APPLES is correct.--R.D. Mullen

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 22 12:08:23 1995
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          Mon, 22 May 1995 17:06:30 +0100
From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: science fiction foundation WWW page
To: [log in to unmask] (sflit)
Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 17:06:22 +0100 (BST)
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I am creating a www page for the Science Fiction Foundation Collection.
It is still in progress, but what there is, linked to pagesabout our MA
course, Foundation journal, and a planned conference, can be found
on

http://www.liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html

Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library
The University of Liverpool
051-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 22 12:14:58 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Three Stigma of Palmer Eldritch
Date: Mon, 22 May 95 16:49:00 BST
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>I am finishing the book The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch by P. Dick
>which
>was done in 1964. I am very interested in the opinions of this book.


I love this book.  Every time I read it I decide it's about something I 
hadn't thought of before.

Scary writing, though.

Give me my Perky Pat set - I'll be fine....

          Dave
From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 22 13:25:54 1995
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	id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 22 May 95 18:29:10 UTC
From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Donaldson + SF games
Date: Mon, 22 May 95 17:19:00 UTC
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Oddly enough I have the opposite opinion.  Try as I might I just cannot 
progress further than halfway through the first Covenant book; the Mirror 
books though, I couldn't put down.
Has anyone noticed a similarity to the critters in the computer game The 
Horde and the voracious monstrosities in Mirror?
On that note, has anyone any opinions on games based on science 
fiction/fantasy books?  Seeing how negative comparisons with movies and TV 
has been I expect this query will test your critical vocabulary some.
 ->
 -> On mature reflection (much as that pains me) I have to offer Donaldson 
for
 -> this award.  Personally I'm quite impressed by the Covenant books,
 -> particularly considering that it seems they were his very personal and
 -> pretty successful (IM-not-exactly-HO) attempt to deal with issues that he 

 -> grew up with.  From what little I've heard, I even like the gentleman
 -> himself (though that is of course by the way).  On the other hand I just
 -> cannot understand what possessed him to write the Mordant's Need books. 
 I
 -> really liked the idea of magic as "Imaging" (I think that was it), but 
that,
 -> great though it is and nicely rendered, is just no excuse for two novels 
of
 -> otherwise shattering rubbish.  They read (more so as they go on) like 
some
 -> of the worst D&D sessions it has ever been my misfortune to experience -
 -> with added, but inexplicable, sex.  I just don't understand why they 
exist.
 ->  I suppose I've read worse, technically, but these two are a tragic
 -> disappointment.
 ->

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 22 13:25:54 1995
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From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Donaldson + SF games
Date: Mon, 22 May 95 17:19:00 UTC
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Oddly enough I have the opposite opinion.  Try as I might I just cannot 
progress further than halfway through the first Covenant book; the Mirror 
books though, I couldn't put down.
Has anyone noticed a similarity to the critters in the computer game The 
Horde and the voracious monstrosities in Mirror?
On that note, has anyone any opinions on games based on science 
fiction/fantasy books?  Seeing how negative comparisons with movies and TV 
has been I expect this query will test your critical vocabulary some.
 ->
 -> On mature reflection (much as that pains me) I have to offer Donaldson 
for
 -> this award.  Personally I'm quite impressed by the Covenant books,
 -> particularly considering that it seems they were his very personal and
 -> pretty successful (IM-not-exactly-HO) attempt to deal with issues that he 

 -> grew up with.  From what little I've heard, I even like the gentleman
 -> himself (though that is of course by the way).  On the other hand I just
 -> cannot understand what possessed him to write the Mordant's Need books. 
 I
 -> really liked the idea of magic as "Imaging" (I think that was it), but 
that,
 -> great though it is and nicely rendered, is just no excuse for two novels 
of
 -> otherwise shattering rubbish.  They read (more so as they go on) like 
some
 -> of the worst D&D sessions it has ever been my misfortune to experience -
 -> with added, but inexplicable, sex.  I just don't understand why they 
exist.
 ->  I suppose I've read worse, technically, but these two are a tragic
 -> disappointment.
 ->

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 22 15:24:21 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: From Robert Horley: Johnny Mnemonic Movie
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Mon, 22 May 95 12:16:38 PDT
Message-Id: <9505221916.265F84@martinw>
X-Mailer: SelectMAIL 1.2

About the imminent Johnny Mnemonic movie, Robertk Horley wrote:

|I just recieved this post from Michael Hart at Project Gutenberg, and
|thought the members of this list might like to see it.  Looks like they
|should have let Gibson write the script after all.  These movie people are
|such idiots.  They'll spend millions of dollars to get some empty headed
|bimbo to pose half naked on the screen, but they are unwilling to spend a
|fraction of this amount to to let the originator of the story write the 
|script.

Well, here's the trouble:  Gibson *did* write the script (at least the first 
version of it).  Then, as with most movies, several people who were _not_ the 
main visionaries (i.e. the director, producers, casting director, various 
marketing folk, etc.) got involved and this scene got altered, and that actor 
turned out to be too weak for that part, and there wasn't enough money to do 
justice to that set, etc.  This explanation is in no way meant to be an 
apology for the poorly-realized film that will appear this Memorial Day, but 
I have been watching Johnny Mnemonic develop into a film for some time, and 
the truth, if not stranger, is certainly sadder than fiction.

|we managed to send one of our virtual friends to the prepremier
|>only about 36 hours ago, and, while I will still be going, I am afraid the
|>responses were not good from both our reviewer and the entire audience.  A
|>cover story in the just out June WIRED also manages not to say anything of
|>any relevance about it.
|>
|>Our reviewer goes to many such screenings, and relates that audience are a
|>mix of reviewers and interested parties. . .in this case people from mixes
|>of computer and science fiction areas. . .and usually voice their opinions
|>in a fairly obvious manner.  

I managed to be present at the "prepremiere" as well, and perhaps I was one 
of those voicing his negative opinion in an obvious manner.  As I had 
mentioned in a previous post, I was lucky enough to read the script that 
Gibson wrote for the film; we've subsequently heard that this script will be 
released as a trade paperback.  To any Gibson fans out there, or anyone who 
is disappointed by the movie, I *heartily* recommend that you read this 
script.  

I can spout for pages about what I thought was wrong with the film, but 
rather than subject all of you to that, I'll summarize with a general 
comment about filmmaking and then apply it to Johnny Mnemonic.  Most 
Hollywood filmmaking is a collaborative process; groups can sometimes produce 
some wonderful work, but from what I've observed, the most stellar examples 
of American film come about largely from the singular or agreed-upon vision 
of one or two powerful elements within any given moviemaking project (i.e. 
demanding, perhaps dictatorial directors such as Kubrick or Coppola).  What I 
observed in Johhny Mnemonic was the desire from several different interests 
to achieve the following goals (not necessarily in order of priority):

(1)  Tell a compelling story set in a fascinating near-future setting
(2)  Confuse as little of the audience as possible with the features of 
Gibson's complex vision of the future
(3)  Match the plot and dialogue to the (often limited) capabilities of the 
players (including Keanu Reeves, Dolph Lundgren, and the director's wife, 
who's name escapes me)
(4)  Sell a soundtrack of music that doesn't necessarily have anything to do 
with the film (other that 30 seconds of playtime during an action sequence), 
yet features artists that are some way connected with Columbia's parent 
company, Sony

Final word:  If you're going to see this film anyway, see it on the big 
screen (to get the full benefit of the special effects), but perhaps at 
matinee prices.  

|I will try to get permission to say more, but
|>for now, I can only say there was a deafening silence when there should be
|>deafening applause, and others noises when there should be none.

Unlike the person who wrote the above, I can say quite a bit more, but I'll 
save it unless I hear that someone else would like to discuss it.

-Martin S. Won
 [log in to unmask]

P.S.  I've got a Japanese cut of the film, which is supposedly somewhat 
different from the American release (hopefully it's closer to the script).  
I'll drop a note about it as soon as I've had the chance to watch it.


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 22 17:31:45 1995
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Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 17:31:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: From Robert Horley: Johnny Mnemonic Movie
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask] 

Last week there were two long articles on the making of _Johnny_Mnemonic_ 
in a local cultural freebie called _The_Montreal_Mirror_.  One of the 
articles was an account on how all of the exteriors for the film 
(including some interiors) had been filmed right here in Montreal, from 
the drop-the-VW-from-the-bridge scene to the dilapidated factory interior 
scenes.  Not a single scene was filmed in New Jersey.  What looks like an 
imagined Jersey of the 21st is already here in Montreal along the abandoned 
Lachine Canal.  It is also in Berlin, but that is another story.

The other article was a long interview with Gibson.  The gist of both 
articles was that Gibson had not only authored the first script for the 
movie but was on hand for all the revisions right up to what he said was 
the 16th as they were filming.  Gibson also stressed that he had 
total control over his movie (he insisted on this), proudly noting that the 
falling VW was a symbol that was in the first as well as the 16th version
of the script.  AND he was right there on the spot when they filmed the 
scene here last summer to see that the VW was dropped just exactly as he 
intended, and was also on stage for the other scenes to follow everythig 
through.

Gibson also told the reporter from the _Mirror_ that he was right there 
next to the programmers and special effect experts when they did all the 
post-production digital and analog effects, holding their hands to see 
that they carried through his inspiration all the way.

No comments on the final cut of the movie, but given his total control 
(written in the contract) over so much, I would be surprised to learn 
that at the very last moment before the film was released he had lost 
control.

If somebody has read a post-opening interview of Gibson somewhere, 
please post references to it here so that we can have some solid facts 
from the author on who was responsible for the final cut.

Au revoir!


From @link-m.muc.de:[log in to unmask]  Mon May 22 19:34:03 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Humor from the slushpile
References: <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Z-Netz Network Area, Germany
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                                        21.05.95 / 21 May 95

Please, Martin Won, more! More!

But in smaller doses; that much at one time is a serious health hazard (said  
he, gasping for breath and holding on to the desktop).
--
Tim Slater, B.A. (Nat. Sci.), MITI
[log in to unmask]     CIS: 1000024,2546
Eglinger Str. 15A, D-82544 Egling-Moosham, GERMANY
_____    __          phone: +49-8176-1393   fax: -1722
  |     |__          Oeffentlich bestellter und allgemein beeidigter
  | RAN  __| LATER   Dolmetscher und Uebersetzer fuer die englische Sprache

## CrossPoint v3.02 ##

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                                        21.05.95 / 21 May 95

Please, Martin Won, more! More!

But in smaller doses; that much at one time is a serious health hazard (said  
he, gasping for breath and holding on to the desktop).
--
Tim Slater, B.A. (Nat. Sci.), MITI
[log in to unmask]     CIS: 1000024,2546
Eglinger Str. 15A, D-82544 Egling-Moosham, GERMANY
_____    __          phone: +49-8176-1393   fax: -1722
  |     |__          Oeffentlich bestellter und allgemein beeidigter
  | RAN  __| LATER   Dolmetscher und Uebersetzer fuer die englische Sprache

## CrossPoint v3.02 ##

From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 22 21:05:37 1995
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Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 21:03:00 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Magazines & Cover Art

I haven't seen any comments of magazine cover art.  The more popular SF mags
(eg Asimov's, Analog, F&SF) usually have decent covers.  Frequently the cover
art is created for the lead story although sometimes a 'stock' illustration
is used.
    I prefer Science Fiction Chronicles for both content and cover art over
Locus and its lack of cover art.  The defunct Aboriginal Science Fiction had
good covers which were frequently overshadowed by their interior art, til
they stopped the glossy interior.
    BUT... Science Fiction Age takes this month's whatinhell are they up to
award.  I've been a subscriber for about two years and enjoy this mag
immensely, recieved the May issue long ago, it had their usual 'style' cover,
distinctive font style, etc.  Last week I was browsing the racks of a Barnes
& Noble and saw a new issue of SFA totally different style cover similar
artwork, different font style.  It looked amaturish, the word garrish comes
to mind.
    I plucked it from the shelf, looked at the innards and thought "Whoa,
Deja Vu."  I knew I hadn't bought anything that looked like that mag, but I
remembered almost every story.  Muttering "It's the drugs, it's the drugs,
gottta change the med's" I bought it and brought it home.  It's the same
issue, with a different cover the subscription's cover is by far better.
     If anyone knows why they did this please tell me before I find myself in
a auto that changes into a Black Dodge Stealth.  Hey never mind DON'T tell me
I'd enjoy a new car.

---Paul


From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 23 01:05:56 1995
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Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 01:05:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Resnick Glorified
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]"
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Then there's no way you'll be able to keep your hands off me if we ever
meet, right?

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 23 03:38:53 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: Serge Berezhnoy <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Russian alternate histories
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 11:35:14 +0400


 > - I think you must mean "Goering" (you thought it was one of
 > those  transliterations where an "h" gets lost in Russian, didn't
 > you?)

Yes. My German far worst even then my Russian :)

Good SF!

Serge V. Berezhnoy
St.Petersburg, Russia
[log in to unmask]
--- GoldED 2.50.Beta5+
 * Origin: Camelot-89. Voice call (812)-310-6007 (2:5030/207.2)




From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 23 05:02:23 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
References: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Zoryany Shlyah SF Club
From: Boris Sidyuk <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tue, 23 May 95 11:28:53 +0300
X-Mailer: BML [MS/DOS Beauty Mail v.1.36]
Subject: No Worst SF, again...
Lines: 7

On my very personal private opinion there is no such thing as
the worst SF (or fantasy, or any other collection of words).
Any literary work has its right to exist, any literary work
is excellently great if there is a single reader who enjoys it.

Regards, Boris
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 23 05:02:24 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
References: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Zoryany Shlyah SF Club
From: Boris Sidyuk <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tue, 23 May 95 11:54:34 +0300
X-Mailer: BML [MS/DOS Beauty Mail v.1.36]
Subject: Re: Three Stigma of Palmer Eldritch
Lines: 9

>   I am finishing the book The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch by P. Dick which
>   was done in 1964. I am very interested in the opinions of this book. I
>   understand that it has a high price tag on 1st edition copy, well over $1000.

Personally, I consider the novel the best of Dick's works. It's really
even better the MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE and DO ANDROIDS...

Regards, Boris
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 23 07:44:30 1995
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Date:         Tue, 23 May 95  07:47:15 EDT
From: Bob Roehm <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Johnny Mnemonic
To: "SF & Fantasy Discussion Forum" <[log in to unmask]>


FYI: Both the Terry Bisson novelization and the William Gibson screenplay
(this volume also includes the short story) hit the bookstores last week.
There's also an interview with Gibson in yesterday's (Monday, 5/22) New York
Times.

Bob

Robert A. Roehm
Asst., Office of Collection Mgmt., Ekstrom Library
Univ of Louisville, Louisville KY 40292
[log in to unmask] - (502)852-8715

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 23 07:48:56 1995
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Date: 23 May 1995 07:49:07 EST
Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
From: "CHRISTINE T CALLAHAN" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: JOHNNY M.
To: [log in to unmask]
Comment: RE: JOHNNY M.

   The  ads  in  the  NY  Times  and Washington Post  for  JOHNNY 
MNEMONIC show Gibson as writer. Like  Alain Vaillancourt, I'd  be 
very interested in  seeing post-release comments by  Gibson,  and 
also any comments by  list members who decide to  see  the movie. 
I'm planning on taking off next week, and might go  to  a matinee 
just to  see  for myself; I expect there'll be  a *long* list  of 
comments when I get back� 
     Chris Callahan (who plans to reread the story  in  the  next 
few days)                                                         

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 23 08:57:16 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Date: 23 May 95  08:43 EST
Subject: Thank You!
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id:  <[log in to unmask]>

I want to thank all those who answered my question about the butterfly 
story (which I now know is Ray Bradbury's "Sound of Thunder"- thanks 
to you!).  At least now I have the advantage of pinpointing the book 
to find -GOLDEN APPLES OF THE SUN.

Thanks Again!

Michael Moncey
([log in to unmask])

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 23 09:24:08 1995
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Date: Tue, 23 May 95 09:24:04 EDT
From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Reading Speed

A few months ago, this reading speed discussion was going on on another listserv.
At the time, I decided to do an experiment and make myself read slower to see
if I got more out of the book.  I tell you, it sucked!  The only way I could
read slow was to concentrate on my reading speed to the exclusion of everything
else.  After ten pages, I had no idea what I've read.  I went back and reread
at my usual pace, and after I was done with the book, I could remember 
everything I've read and even recite a couple of favorite passages from
memory.

Marina Frants
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 23 10:05:40 1995
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Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 10:05:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Harold L. Drake" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: JFA SPECIAL ISSUE CALL FOR PAPERS 
To: [log in to unmask]
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 10:49:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Harold L. Drake <hdrake@marauder>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: JFA SPECIAL ISSUE CALL FOR PAPERS

---------- Forwarded message ----------

	The following was distributed at the March, 1995 conference on the
 Fantastic in the Arts at Ft.Lauderdale,Florida, USA.  
	CALL FOR PAPERS, "Mental Abilities"--A special topic issue of the 
JOURNAL OF THE FANTASTIC IN THE ARTS.  (This special topic issue has been 
approved by JFA executive editor, Carl Yoke.)
	This special issue of JFA is edited by H. L. Drake, Millersville 
University and is scheduled for publication in mid-1997 or early 1998.  
The topic is "mental abilities" in science fiction-science fantasy 
stories.  Preference will be given to international and multicultural 
PROPOSALS dealing with the following: (1) an historical perspective which 
compares and contrasts past-to-contemporary stories establishing a socio-
economic-political literary pattern regarding mental abilities; and, (2) 
an SF author who seems to have a message regarding the necessity for real 
life human mental improvements.
	Published authors may write about themselves and their work re-
garding "mental abilities."
	After PROPOSALS have been approved, finished papers are to be 
from three to six thousand words in length.
	DO NOT SEND A FINISHED PAPER UNTIL YOUR PROPOSAL HAS BEEN 
APPROVED.  Proposals must be approved and special instructions given 
before a finished paper can receive final acceptance.
	DEADLINE FOR PROPOSALS...ONLY...is October 1, 1995.  Send 100-
200 word PROPOSALS with a business size SASE to:
		H. L. Drake
		JFA Special Issue
		Communication & Theatre Department
		Millersville University
		Millersville, Pennsylvania 17551

	NOT INCLUDED IN THE "CALL FOR PAPERS" distributed at last week's 
convention is...YES...I will accept PROPOSALS (only proposals) by way of 
email.  But even then, if/when a proposal is accepted...we will 
eventually have to use the traditional mail system.
	PROPOSALS from outside of the United States are encouraged.
	Thanks and any questions/discussion/et cetera...please feel free 
to email me at the following address:
	
	[log in to unmask]



From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 23 12:13:36 1995
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Date:         Tue, 23 May 95 12:11:45 EDT
From: Sean Alan Wallace <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Wm. Mark Simmons
To: [log in to unmask]

Has anyone read IN THE NET OF DREAMS and WHEN DREAMS COLLIDE by Wm.
Mark Simmons? I was duly impressed by both books, and can't seem
to find out what happened to Simmons - both books were done
by Questar Fantasy, but I can't find any others.
Has any one heard of the guy - I sent him a letter via Questar but
no response
              - Sean -

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 23 13:18:45 1995
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X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 12:17:26 -0600
From: John Jamison <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject:  Wm. Mark Simmons -Reply

Sean, I have read and enjoyed both of those
books.  Mark lived in KC for a while and hung
out with the SF club I am in.  I saw him this
past feb. in Wichita.  He is now living in
Louisiana and working in a radio station there. 
He just turned in a new book.  Not sure what it
is about.  Took him a while to write because
he had some illness in his family and other life
stuff like moving several states away.


From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 23 13:28:18 1995
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Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 10:27:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe DeRouen <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Wm. Mark Simmons
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Tue, 23 May 1995, Sean Alan Wallace wrote:

> Has anyone read IN THE NET OF DREAMS and WHEN DREAMS COLLIDE by Wm.
> Mark Simmons? I was duly impressed by both books, and can't seem
> to find out what happened to Simmons - both books were done
> by Questar Fantasy, but I can't find any others.
> Has any one heard of the guy - I sent him a letter via Questar but
> no response

I enjoyed both books, the first a tad more than the second.  There should 
obviously be a third;  WHEN DREAMS COLLIDE did end on a bit of a 
cliffhanger.  However, I've yet to see or hear anything about another 
Simmons offering . . .  It's nice to know someone out there enjoyed the 
books as well.  If you hear anything, let me know.  I'll do the same.

Joe DeRouen
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 23 13:30:46 1995
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Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 12:30:45 -0500 (CDT)
From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: From Robert Horley: Johnny Mnemonic Movie
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

It should also be noted that the promo/interview of Gibson SCI-FI Channel 
ran on Sunday's SCI-FI BUZZ program had not a whit of criticism of the 
film.  But then most of SF Ch. is publicity schlock anyway!


Gary


From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 23 15:53:08 1995
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Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 15:53:07 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Please, I Insist

OK George.
George is my middle name.
Alexander George Ibrahim. Now you know where the agi in [log in to unmask] comes
from.
Since I started on that 98 is my number. I play Ice Hockey and that is the
year of the next winter Olympics so remember that name: IBRAHIM #98
(Really ?
 NO, Not REAALLY.)
Take care -If you don't know I ain't tellin'

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 24 11:17:57 1995
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Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 10:17:59 -0500
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Ed McKnight)
Subject: Gibson Interview NYT

It's not exactly a post-release interview, but the New York Times had an
interview with William Gibson in the Monday edition (May 22 1995; Section D;
Page 3; Column 1).  He doesn't discuss his response to the finished version
of the film, but he does discuss his role in the original financing of the
movie:  "Originally we [Gibson and Robert Longo] were talking about a 1.5
million art-house movie, black and white . . . it turned out no one would
give us any money for that . . . Robert's lawyer took us aside and said 'Ask
them for 15 to 20 million, and they'll pay attention.' "  So he was involved
from the start.  The interview also focuses at length upon Gibson's
notorious ignorance of/aversion for computers, on-line communication,
cellular phones, etc.
Ed McKnight       -        [log in to unmask]

<><><><><><><><><><><><><>
 "We are what we pretend to be, so we must 
  be careful about what we pretend to be."    
                                            -Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><>

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 24 12:29:49 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Wed, 24 May 95 16:11:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Phil Dick Faves
X-Genie-Id: 1658973
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

Boris, I have many favorite Phil Dick books, including Man In the High
Castle (and I have a book of his essays and other materials that includes
the first two chapters of the unfinished sequel to Man/Castle)(Unabashed
Brag Warning--the same book has an essay from about 1974, about what young
SF writers should be like, and he mentions me as a worthy example.  We'd
met, spoken at length, and talked on the same panel discussion at some
California convention not long before.  So there), Do Androids Dream, and
Three Stigmata (which was so frighteningly paranoid that my hands actually
sweated while I read those scenes--a fact).  Others include the "what is
reality" books and quirky social satire such as Martian Timeslip, Ubik
(maybe my absolute favorite), The World Jones Made, Game Players of Titan (I
read that one in high school, as did my best friend; we adapted the cheating
rules to Monopoly, to make that game more interesting), Time Out of Joint,
Dr. Bloodmoney, Galactic Pot-Healer (not well-liked even by some Dick fans;
I thought it was funny and moving and well-paced), A Maze of Death (another
superb "what is reality" novel), We Can Build You, and Flow My Tears the
Policeman Said.  Also, his short story collections are extremely good--he
was as good a short fiction writer as he was a novelist (and, as I said, his
quality varied in both forms).
 
I have other favorites, but their titles escape me now.  Dick wrote a lot of
potboilers just to pay the rent, but I feel that even the worst of Dick is
better than the best of some others I could name.  Oddly, among the books of
his I _didn't_ care for are his later ones, Valis, The Divine Invasion, and
The Transmigration of Timothy Archer.
 
One of my proudest moments happened in Baird Searles' long out-of-print SF
Readers' Guide.  He gave short accounts of many current writers (in the
early or middle '70s).  At the end of each entry, he had a line titled "If
you like this writer, you may enjoy this other writer."  After my entry, he
said "if you like Effinger, try Philip K. Dick."  I'm still not sure what I
have in common with Dick, but I was incredibly flattered.  Another great
moment was being asked to give a blurb to Dick's hardcover novel (it's first
publication--he couldn't get it published during his lifetime) Mary and the
Giant.  Again, I was flattered and honored.
 
George
 
Your pal, George

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 24 12:43:16 1995
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Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 10:43:09 -0600 (MDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Walter Miller

In addition to Canticle for Leibowitz, Walter Miller also wrote 3 short 
novels that have been collected in a book titled Conditionally Human, and 9 
short stories collected in View from the Stars.  In 1978 Gregg Press 
published a book titled The Science Fiction Stories of Walter Miller.  It 
collects all 12 stories from both books.  The last book of Miller's that we 
have is The Best of Walter M. Miller, Jr. from Pocket Books, 1980.  It 
contains all the Gregg Press stories plus 2 more.  It looks like if you had 
Canticle and Best of, you would have everything by Miller that has ever 
appeared in book form.

Gene Bundy
Williamson SF Library
Eastern New Mexico University
From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 24 12:53:01 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Wed, 24 May 95 16:12:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Bradbury Collection
X-Genie-Id: 4817389
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

Michael, if you can't locate the short-story collection of Bradbury's, you
can try out-of-print bookstores, and the most likely to have then are SF
specialty shops--as I've mentioned before.  E-mail me
([log in to unmask]) for a few bookstore suggestions and addresses.
 
Hmm.  Colleen, would it be worthwhile to upload some of those bookstore
names, addresses, and phone numbers?  Or is that too commercial for this
lit'ry list?
 
George

From cstu  Wed May 24 15:04:05 1995
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Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 15:04:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: List of bookstores on SF-LIT
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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	Since there is no way we could list every bookstore, I think it 
would be unfair to do so here, HOWEVER, there are several such lists 
available elsewhere on the Internet.  If someone whats to list the URL's 
or addresses of these sites, that would be fine.  For example, Tor has a 
World Wide Web home page at http://www.tor.com  which lists lots of neat 
stuff.  

Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]



From cstu  Wed May 24 17:21:04 1995
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Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 17:21:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Oops, more on bookstores
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

As an after thought, it would certainly be fine to offer info to others 
who contact you directly, George (who am I to censor your mail?).  

Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 24 14:28:37 1995
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Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 15:29:09 -0300 (ADT)
From: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sci-fi and proud of it!
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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 "So tell me which SF book was a list of proper terminology printed in?" The
book you could have looked in for such a list is an unabridged dictionary of the
English language, which is not strictly speaking an "SF book," although it does
include terms from science fiction. The  Compact Oxford English Dictionary
(2nd Edition, OUP 1991) has an entry (definition) for "science fiction" (which I
shan't quote here because I don't want to start another interminable and
inconclusive row) AND an entry (definition) for "sci-fi." It defines sci-fi as a
"Colloq[uial] abbrev[iation] of science fiction."  In the dictionary, 
both terms are merely "denotative," t hat is "descriptive." But words never stay
MERELY denotative: they acquire connotations (overtones, subtexts, hidden
agendas). Unfortunately, "sci-fi" has acquired such connotations - specifically,
overtones of disrespect on the speaker's part to what is referred to: the books
themselves. Surely,  IF someone enjoys reading it, THEN he/she should refer to
it with respect for the sake of the enjoyment it has produced. This  requirement
has nothing to do with "respect" towards the people who create it: respect
towards persons is relative (dependent on circumstances), but respect for
language and the constructs of language we call literature INCLUDING science
fiction is an absolute. 

*****************************************************************
patricia monk (dr)                              [log in to unmask]
                   "just visiting this planet"
*****************************************************************


From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 24 17:42:04 1995
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Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 17:42:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Sci-fi and proud of it!
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]"
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The Oracle trilogy (SOOTHSAYER, ORACLE, PROPHET) from Ace and IVORY from
Tor have much the same flavor of SANTIAGO.

I've never gotten mad at anyone who used terms I find offensive through
ignorance. I only get annoyed after it has been explained to them that
the terms -are- offensive and they argue that they shouldn't be and use
them anyway, which to me is simply bad manners.

Most of the terminology of the subculture is picked up through personal
contact at conventions and via the networks. It -has- been codified quite
a few times, but the major works are out of print and I'd be the last one
to tell you to spend $100+ to buy the 1959 FANCYCLOPEDIA II or anything
smiliarly long out of print just to learn a few terms you'll never use
anywhere else.

Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 24 17:50:08 1995
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Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 17:50:07 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Alternate media for Camille

In a message dated 95-05-06 21:40:38 EDT, Alexander [log in to unmask] posted:

>Camille,
>Try looking into HTML. (HyperText Markup Language.) This is the standard
>hypertext language used on the World Wide Web. It has the advantages
>of wide distribution and platform independence. 

. . . and for an in-depth history of someone else's attempt at
intertextuality there is a fascinating story in the new issue of WIRED (issue
3.06).

   So, it's not SF,  or just maybe it is.

--Paul



From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 24 18:54:04 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Gibson Involvement in Johnny Mnemonic
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wed, 24 May 95 15:46:16 PDT
Message-Id: <9505242246.105748@martinw>
X-Mailer: SelectMAIL 1.2

Ed McKnight ([log in to unmask]) reported that the following appeared in a 
NYT interview:

|"Originally we [Gibson and Robert Longo] were talking about a 1.5
|million art-house movie, black and white . . . it turned out no one would
|give us any money for that . . . Robert's lawyer took us aside and said 'Ask
|them for 15 to 20 million, and they'll pay attention.' "  So he was involved
|from the start.  

There's no doubt in my mind that Gibson was heavily involved in the making of 
Johnny Mnemonic from the start.  At the premiere, Longo (the director) made a 
point of this by saying that he was in constant communication with Gibson 
during the filming, sometimes FAXing scene changes to Gibson and receiving 
sketches of how the new scene should look in return.  Even with all that, there 
were, as I mentioned before, myriad things beyond Gibson's control, such as 
acting (dis)ability, music, and budget constraints.  

Another item to this story:  The producers mentioned that this film was a long 
time in coming, that it had stalled under other studios and had generally had a 
rough time in its creation.  More than anything else, they seemed relieved to 
have finally finished the project.  With that in mind, I'm sure that many of 
the people involved, including Gibson, made concessions in order to get the 
film made and out the door.

Chip Warden wrote:

| the latest (May?) Premiere
|magazine (Tom Hanks/Apollo 13 cover) has an article with lots of information
|on the movie, including a mini-interview with Gibson. He does have some
|interesting comments about Hollywood types, but seems pleased with the movie.

On the night of the premiere, Gibson seemed rather detached from the whole 
proceedings.  I've never met him before, so I have no basis for comparison, but 
he didn't address the audience, and afterwards was very low-key as he received 
compliments and congratulations.  I speculate that, like the producers, he's 
largely pleased to see the thing finished, and is unlikely to voice many 
negative comments about it for any number of reasons.

Further comments welcome...

-Martin S. Won

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 24 20:35:34 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Worst Science Fiction Books Ever

I must take issue with the assertion that William Gibson's "The Difference
Engine" deserves even cursory consideration for such a dubious honor.  "TDE"
displays neither the bold stylistic brashness he used to contain an otherwise
eligantly simple story of nearly virgin territory {"Neuromancer"} or the
refreshingly straight forward, but double-edged with humor and a
not-so-gentle aire of decay he presented in his last novel.  However, "TDE"
is a painstakingly detailed treatment of a splendid premise.

Gibson has showed that the near reaches of history, where many authors fear
to tread, instills no such trepidation in him.  To write about the near
future {Virtual Light} invites ridicule in due course if the picture it
paints turns out to be even slightly amiss {e.g. almost any novel that had
the U.S.S.R. as an element}.  To write about the recent past at a first-rate
level {do we, as discriminating readers ourselves, ever demand anything
less?} requires immense research, less some ________ (fill in the preceeding
blank with the name of your favorite university or college) professor of the
period chose to take issue with you in print, or e-mail for that matter.

I've read all Gibson's published.  "TDE" was neither his best work nor his
most readable.  Notwithstanding, he spins a tale with a vision approaching
that of Clarke and the scientific precision of {early} Niven.  I eagerly
await his next new offering.

                                                  -BurnChrome  
From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 24 23:31:48 1995
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From: ESPANA <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: BayCon
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	Well I'm off to San Jose until Tuesday for BayCon. If any of you 
are gonna be there you can mail me before tomorrow morning (I'm leaving 
about noon) or else stop by the Art section (or whatever it's called) 
I'll be there helping Laurie Pohl with the auction and all. 
	'til then.

--
Espana N. Sheriff				"It ain't so much"
[log in to unmask]					BILLY THE KID
http://www.Catch22.COM/~espana	      		

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 25 06:49:02 1995
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          Thu, 25 May 1995 11:48:36 +0100
From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sci-fi and proud of it!
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 11:48:34 +0100 (BST)
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In the last mail [log in to unmask] said:
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the terminology of the subculture is picked up through personal
> contact at conventions and via the networks. It -has- been codified quite
> a few times, but the major works are out of print and I'd be the last one
> to tell you to spend $100+ to buy the 1959 FANCYCLOPEDIA II or anything
> smiliarly long out of print just to learn a few terms you'll never use
> anywhere else.
> 
I picked up my "automatic reference" terminology through reading books which
had the letters SF in large friendly letters all over them; anthologies
like BEST SF, and variant titles like that. I'd look inside novels and
collections to read the authors' prefaces and they'd be talking about something
called SF. Most of the magazines used the term SF - you don't abbreviate to
F&SciFi or Asimov's SciFi monthly. Aren't the people who suggest that they
are being told to take an exam in applied fannishness being a bit picky?

Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library
The University of Liverpool
051-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]


From eaj  Thu May 25 08:52:35 1995
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Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 08:52:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Eric A. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE:  Philip K. Dick
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The Philip K. Dick Society is Dead, Alas--but for those hardcore Dick 
fans there are now two 'zines instead of one devoted to PKD.  The first 
'zine is RADIO FREE PKD ($12 for 4 issues from Noel Productions, 27068 S. 
La Paz, Suite #430, Aliso Viejo, CA 92656) edited by Greg Lee.  The 
second 'zine is FOR DICKHEADS ONLY ($5 for 4 issues from Ganymedean Slime 
Mold Productions, PO Box 611, Kokomo, IN 46903) edited by Dave Hyde.  The 
publication schedule for both 'zines is very irregular.

Incidentally, PKD is indirectly responsible for the existence of this 
listserv--and for the existence of a Recommending Officer for Science 
Fiction at the Library of Congress and everything that followed.  In 
1989, I wrote a memo (the preferred weapon of every good bureaucrat) 
complaining of the poor state of the Library's collection of PKD (back 
then we had only about half his titles in the collections).  Not knowing 
what else to do, the Library appointed the first Recommending Officer for 
Science Fiction (Joseph Mayhew) to deal with my memo.  Once Joe retired, 
the responsibility mysteriously boomeranged back to me.  So PKD lives on.  
And continues to publish as many books dead as most authors do alive.  EAJ

PS Several of you have asked about what the Library of Congress is up to 
in the way of SF.  Once I get a more official version ready, I will post 
it for those who are interested.

  *-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
  | Eric A. Johnson				|     *OPINIONS MINE*     |
  | Senior Exchange Specialist (Baltics & CIS)	|			  |
  | & Recommending Officer for Science Fiction	|  Voice:  (202) 707-9498 |
  | Exchange & Gift Division (COLL/E&G/EES)	|  FAX:  (202) 707-2086   |
  | Library of Congress, LM 632			|  Email:  [log in to unmask]    |
  | Washington, DC  20540-4240  USA		|			  |
  *-----------------------------------------------------------------------*

		"Reality is that which, when you stop 
		 believing in it, doesn't go away."
				Philip K. Dick, 1928-1982

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 25 10:16:35 1995
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Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 09:16:40 -0600 (CST)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Walter Miller
To: [log in to unmask]
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There have been rumors for more than two decades of a sequel/prequel to
Canticle to be called Leibowitz and the Wild Horse Woman. Miller supposedly
began it in the late 1970s and showed someone 60 pages of manuscript in 
1978. Then in the late 1980s he returned to the book after years of 
writer's block. Bantam Books supposedly received 250 pages of unfinished
manuscript for the book in 1990, but . . . 

This story plus a complete listing of Miller's published fiction can be
found in Walter M. Miller, Jr.: A Bio-Bibliography, by William H. Roberson
andRobert Battenfeld, Greenwood Press, 1992.

Mike Levy
From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 25 15:12:51 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Ed McKnight)
Subject: SF in Bloom's The Western Canon

        In light of the recent discussion of intertextuality and the
relationship between SF and "literature" I took a look at Harold Bloom's THE
WESTERN CANON, a 1994 publication in which he ponders the loss of an
aesthetically-based canon of literary works.  In the last of several lengthy
appendices he offers his own prediction of which twentieth-century works
will (he doesn't say "should") eventually be considered "canonical."  Out of
400-500 British and American titles, including a great deal of poetry and
drama as well as novels, he offers the following SF/Fantasy titles:
                
                                British:
                                H.G. Wells - The Science Fiction Novels
                                David Lindsay - A Voyage to Arcturus
                                Virginia Woolf - Orlando
                                Mervyn Peake - The Gormenghast Trilogy
                                George Orwell - 1984

                                US:
                                Ursula K. LeGuin - The Left Hand of Darkness
                                John Crowley - Little, Big
                                                           Aegypt 
                                                           Love and Sleep
                                Russell Hoban - Riddley Walker
                                Thomas Pynchon - V.
                                                                  Gravity's
Rainbow
                                Thomas M. Disch - On Wings of  Song
                                Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. - Cat's Cradle
 
I'm sure I've omitted some SF titles that I didn't recognize as such while
including some that are not generally regarded as genre SF, such as Orlando
and V.  Now, bear in mind that while Bloom is a cultural conservative he is
also the author of an SF novel himself (The Flight to Lucifer--has anyone
read it?) and that these titles were included on a list along with such
works as The Return of the Native, Lord Jim, Finnegan's Wake, The Great
Gatsby, The Sound and the Fury and Long Day's Journey Into Night.  I'm not
asking how he could possibly have omitted The Man in the High Castle or The
Demolished Man or Dune; on such a list a heck of a lot has to be omitted.
My question is this: given that these are not intended to be the ten best SF
novels ever written but rather the ten out of the best 400-500 "literary"
works of the century that happen to be SF, just how arbitrary does this list
appear to be?  In my opinion Wells and Orwell are the only two that
absolutely have to be there; Pynchon and Vonnegut are obvious choices, too,
but Bloom might as easily have chosen Mother Night or one of Vonnegut's
other "mainstream" works instead of Cat's Cradle, and calling Pynchon an SF
writer might a stretch on my part.  LeGuin is the closest thing that
post-war SF has to a necessary representative, but I wouldn't have been
surprised at her omission (dismayed, but not surprised). I'm pleased and
surprised to see Peake and Crowley included, but no more so than I am to see
Tolkein and Dick excluded.  I suppose Disch is the choice that gives me the
most trouble--not that he shouldn't be there, but if Disch then why not
Aldiss, Brunner, Delany, Russ, or fifty other writers of equal merit?
Again, I'm not asking if these are or are not the ten best SF writers of the
century; the qualities represented by an SF "canon" would undoubtedly differ
from those of such a broad cultural canon as Bloom suggests.  I'm asking if
there is anything about the titles on this list that strikes anyone as
making them particularly "literary," whether intertextuality to classic
works, depth or darkness of subject matter, subsequent literary influences,
or something else?

Ed McKnight       -        [log in to unmask]

<><><><><><><><><><><><><>
 "We are what we pretend to be, so we must 
  be careful about what we pretend to be."    
                                            -Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><>

From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 25 20:02:44 1995
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Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 20:02:44 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF in Bloom's The Western Canon

Mostly a matter of reputation, as much as merit, I suspect. Thomas Disch has
been a widely-noted poet in the lttle press for more than 25 years; writing
theater reviews for THE NATION can't hurt, either.  Harold Bloom might well
have read a 1980 American Book Award nominee like ON WINGS OF SONG (the only
F&SF serial so honored?) without ever hearing of Fritz Leiber, Theodore
Sturgeon, Joanna Russ (despite all three having widespread literary careers,
Russ's the most little/academic, but much of that last feminist nonficiton)
or even Disch's 334, to say nothing of MANKIND UNDER THE LEASH.
From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 25 21:21:49 1995
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Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 21:19:08 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF in Bloom's The Western...

The item on Bloom's list that I would have most quarrel
with is Lindsay's _A Voyage to Arcturus_, one of the very
few books that I refused to slog through to the end.

The other inclusions are defensible, but I agree that 
much that is excluded might have been there.

I am curious as to the extent of the poetry included - is it
modern stuff?  If so, I see little justification for its
inclusion - with the exception of a very few pieces, 
modern poetry has little or no impact on the culture
as a whole.

Ed Fitzgerald
From @INDST.INDSTATE.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Thu May 25 22:34:26 1995
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From: "EJUSERS" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] (Ed McKnight), [log in to unmask]
Date:          Thu, 25 May 1995 21:34:17 EST
Subject:       Re: SF in Bloom's The Western Canon
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Ed McKnight has broached a most interesting subject. I would like to 
see it worked up for SCIENCE-FICTION STUDIES. --R.D. Mullen, co-
editor SFS. <[log in to unmask]>
From [log in to unmask]  Thu May 25 22:49:44 1995
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Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 22:50:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Fuller <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF in Bloom's The Western Canon
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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I would consider some of Ellison's stuff to be quite literary.  Wonder 
why he didn't make the list?

Amy

On Thu, 25 May 1995, Ed McKnight wrote:

> century; the qualities represented by an SF "canon" would undoubtedly differ
> from those of such a broad cultural canon as Bloom suggests.  I'm asking if
> there is anything about the titles on this list that strikes anyone as
> making them particularly "literary," whether intertextuality to classic
> works, depth or darkness of subject matter, subsequent literary influences,
> or something else?
> 
> Ed McKnight       -        [log in to unmask]
From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 26 04:08:14 1995
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Date: 26 May 95 04:07:04 EDT
From: Jeff Lemkin <[log in to unmask]>
To: LOC sf discussion <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Three Stigma of Palmer Eldritch
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>


Joedebo writes: 

>I am finishing the book The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch by P. Dick which 
>was done in 1964. I am very interested in the opinions of this book. I 
>understand that it has a high price tag on 1st edition copy, well over $1000. 
>
>I find the text interesting. It plays on reality versus perception. It is a 
>story how colonist on Mars, who are bored with the mundane, take a drug called 
>Can-D.  Probably Dick's best novel that I have read. 

Talk about re-reading (another thread!). I think I learned how to reread from
Phil Dick's stories. One I particularly enjoyed was _Clans of the Alphane Moon_,
which 
was a singularly logical look at various clinical descriptions of madness, a
sort of
"who will guard those selfsame nutcases". In a way, it reminded me of the movie
_The King of Hearts_. 

_Three Stigmata_ was certainly one of his best. G.Effinger has mentioned a
goodly 
selection of his work in a previous mail send. I would only add that the
collection of
short stories in _The Golden Man_ and _The Preserving Machine_ are absolutely 
worth reading and (forgive me if this has already been mentioned, I'm in a "nuke
mail 
quickly" mode at the moment) Martian Time Slip contains some of the most
compelling
descriptions of autism and some of the most richly drawn characters that I've
ever
enjoyed. 

And. . .it's true, if you enjoy reading Phil Dick, you'd probably enjoy
G.Effinger,
if only because they are amongst the few writers who can accurately call up the
ordinary, everyday humor that some people use to ward off bad karma and make you

chuckle in the midst of madness. 

Oh, yeah, and there are some *great* older Ace doubles containing some of his
(Dick's)
stuff, including _Dr. Futurity_ and _The Cosmic Puppets_. 

Sorry to go on for so long, but you really must've touched a nerve. Oddly, I
hadn't
looked through my collection for Phil Dick in many years, but in the last couple
of days, I've scanned through a number of his books!

	-Jeff


From cstu  Fri May 26 10:07:01 1995
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Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 10:07:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Disclave this weekend
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For any SF-LITers who will be in DC this weekend, the annual science 
fiction convention, Disclave, will be held in the Reniasance Hotel 
Techworld, 999 9th St., NW, across for the DC Convention Center.  Charles 
Sheffield is the guest of honor and if you do drop by, check out book 
dealer's area; I will be staffing a table for the Library of Congress.  
Besides prompting the Library, I will also be handing out information on 
SF-LIT.  Stop over and say hi!

Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]
 


From @CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Fri May 26 10:56:22 1995
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Date:         Fri, 26 May 95 10:41:05 EDT
From: Doug Kuiper <@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Bloom's Canon
To: [log in to unmask]

Halloo?  Anyone out there who hasn't left for a wonderful weekend?
Cricket, cricket, cricket.  *Sigh*.  Anyway, for those who are left, I
have a question.  What exactly marks a work of SF literature as one deserving
of canonization?

I have read few of the books that Bloom mentions.  Perhaps this is a
statement about my reading habits or my relative youth, but this process
seems rather arbitrary to me.  The only qualification appears to be
endurance over time, which would imply that cockroaches should be
canonized.

Seriously, however, are there such things as SF books that I MUST read in
order to ... Well, to what?  What is the point of a seemingly (to me)
arbitrary list of works to which we have a common reference?  Is this
a desperate attempt to glue together a rapidly fragmenting (or always
fragmented) culture?  Actually, IMHO, it elevates one friend recommending
a book to another to the level of a distant, authoritative voice saying
that you don't really know (SF) literature if you haven't read X.

So, this is rather rambling, but I would appreciate any feedback.  Thanks.

-Doug
[log in to unmask]
From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 26 11:25:42 1995
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From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Three Stigma of Palmer Eldritch
Date: Fri, 26 May 95 16:25:00 UTC
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I haven't been in on this thread much as I'm only getting approx. 1/10th the 
postings, (a problem my side I believe), but P.K.Dick is a writer I go back 
to when I want a very particular kind of read.  It is hard, nay impossible, 
to explain exactly what I mean, but to get to the point, (before I collapse 
into a singularity and vanish), his best, in my opinion, (naturally), are 
Game Players Of Titan, and Dr Bloodmoney.  Any takers on that?
I do actually have a 1st edition of the book The Three Stigmata of Palmer 
Eldritch and never thought it was worth that much.  I bought it along with 
a, (supposedly as it had no verification), autographed Book of Ptath by 
A.E.Van Vogt for five pounds each.  Along with all the rare and highly 
valued vinyl I have it'll never be sold and so is worth/price-less to me.

markw - anyone out there listen to Peter Hammill?
 ----------
 -> From: sf-lit
 -> To: Multiple recipients of list
 -> Subject: Three Stigma of Palmer Eldritch
 -> Date: Friday, May 26, 1995 7:00AM
 ->
 ->
 -> Joedebo writes:
 ->
 -> >I am finishing the book The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch by P. Dick
 -> which
 -> >was done in 1964. I am very interested in the opinions of this book. I
 -> >understand that it has a high price tag on 1st edition copy, well over
 -> $1000.
 -> >
From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 26 12:54:01 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF in Bloom's The Western Canon
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 17:49:18 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Ed McKnight" at May 25, 95 07:10:17 pm
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In the last mail Ed McKnight said:
> 
>         In light of the recent discussion of intertextuality and the
> relationship between SF and "literature" I took a look at Harold Bloom's THE
> WESTERN CANON, a 1994 publication in which he ponders the loss of an
> aesthetically-based canon of literary works.  In the last of several lengthy
> appendices he offers his own prediction of which twentieth-century works
> will (he doesn't say "should") eventually be considered "canonical."  Out of
> 400-500 British and American titles, including a great deal of poetry and
> drama as well as novels, he offers the following SF/Fantasy titles:
>                 
>                                 British:
>                                 H.G. Wells - The Science Fiction Novels
>                                 David Lindsay - A Voyage to Arcturus
>                                 Virginia Woolf - Orlando
>                                 Mervyn Peake - The Gormenghast Trilogy
>                                 George Orwell - 1984
> 
>                                 US:
>                                 Ursula K. LeGuin - The Left Hand of Darkness
>                                 John Crowley - Little, Big
>                                                            Aegypt 
>                                                            Love and Sleep
>                                 Russell Hoban - Riddley Walker
>                                 Thomas Pynchon - V.
>                                                                   Gravity's
> Rainbow
>                                 Thomas M. Disch - On Wings of  Song
>                                 Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. - Cat's Cradle
>  
I wonder how he judged which should be in the canon. I suspect it was for a
mixture of reasons - ie as you suggest very few people would place ORLANDO
as SF. OF course, what does canon formation mean anyway? If it relates to
how much academic attention is paid a writer, I'm extremely surprised at the
lack of any Philip K Dick, but I'm not sure how much Crowley is the focus
of academics, so credit to Bloom for looking beyond the obvious.

Like one or two people who've responded to this thread, I'm interested that
he also cited A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS: not because I dislike it (I don't, far from
it) but I do think that it's very much a cult work and I wouldn't ever see it
being part of a "canon" (though I feel that far too little attention is
paid to it.

I haven't read Bloom's book, but I think I should. I tend to be wary of the 
idea of a "canon" simply because it begs the question of who is selecting the 
canon and from what motives. Is it gary Taylor's REINVENTING SHAKESPEARE which
looks at how Shakespeare has become the focus of literary study partly through
a series of accidents and has meant considerably different things at different
periods? The plays which we consider "great" now were considered less so in
the 18th and 19th centuries.

It's interesting that he's also citing what are not necessarily thought of
as the writers' "best" books (apart from obvious examples such as Peake) but
perhaps their most famous ones, which suggests that "received opinion" plays
a part. But I may be misreading this. Does he cite Wells's non-sf books as well;
if so, which ones. Which other Orwell, if any, does he cite?  

Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library
The University of Liverpool
051-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]

> 

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 26 13:08:14 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 17:56:03 +0100 (BST)
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In the last mail Mark Woolrich said:
> 
> 
> 
> markw - anyone out there listen to Peter Hammill?
Not nearly enough as I would like to.

Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library
The University of Liverpool
051-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 26 13:54:32 1995
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From: "Brian Attebery" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization:  Idaho State University
To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Fri, 26 May 1995 12:05:14 MST
Subject:       Re: SF in Bloom's The Western Canon
Priority: normal
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I suspect that Bloom has included all the sf that he has read and 
liked.  His declared fondness for the field doesn't extend to making 
himself familiar with very much of it.  But of course, that's the 
usefulness of canons--they keep you from having to read very much or 
to read in context.

I always try to bear in mind a comment made by a feminist scholar 
whose name escapes me at the moment, that any claim about greatness 
in literature should be followed by the question "Great for whom, and 
under what circumstances?"
From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 26 13:57:26 1995
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Date:         Fri, 26 May 95  14:00:11 EDT
From: Bob Roehm <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: SF in Bloom's The Western Canon
In-Reply-To:  note of 05/26/95 13:32
To: "SF & Fantasy Discussion Forum" <[log in to unmask]>


Andy Sawyer wonders why John Crowley was included in Harold Bloom's list. Not
that I don't think that Crowley is well qualified to be in such company, but I
believe I read somewhere that the two are acquainted, if not friends, which may
account for Bloom's familiarity with Crowley's work. Bloom, however, is not
ignorant of the SF field, as he is the editor of record for Chelsea House's
series Writers of English, which includes volumes on fantasy, horror, and
science fiction authors. The series is aimed at a young adult audience and
consists of brief biographies of each author, followed by excerpts of
criticism, and a bibliography. While fairly superficial, the books are still
useful beyond their intended audience.

Bob

Robert A. Roehm
Asst., Office of Collection Mgmt., Ekstrom Library
Univ of Louisville, Louisville KY 40292
[log in to unmask] - (502)852-8715
From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 26 14:05:39 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Bloom's Canon
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The point of a canon, whether it be Bloom's or any other, is to point out
the best work to have been published.  Such attempts are always arbitrary
and a bit silly.  On the other hand, if you read everything in Bloom's canon or anyone else's, you'll have a lot of great books under your belt. Probably
the single most valuable thing about canons is that they give people
common ground, a shared group of texts to talk about. Perhaps the most
pernicious thing about most canons, is that they tend to exclude books that
are worthy of inclusion. Historically, this has tended to exclude books
by women and minorities in favor of works by DWMs (dead white males).

Having just written up my own canon (the modern sf section of the new 
edition of Anatomy of Wonder), I'm overwhelmingly aware of its short
comings and the extent to which it reveals my personal taste. Brian Stable-
ford did the modern sf section of the third edition. Comparing his
selection to mine, I find about an 80 percent overlap. Still, I took
out things he probably would have left in and I added things he probably
would have left out. It isn't entirely subjective, but things get
awfully fuzzy around the edges.  Example: no one in his right mind
would leave out Herbert's Dune, but how many of Herbert's other novels, if
any belong in an sf canon? LeGuin's Left Hand of Darkness and The Dispossessed
obviously belong, but what about The Lathe of Heaven?

Mike Levy
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Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 13:08:17 -0600 (CST)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF in Bloom's The Western Canon
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Read Bloom's sf novel, The Flight to Lucifer, and it will be immediately
obvious why he think's Lindsey's Voyage to Arcturus belongs in the canon.
See any similarity in the names? It ain't an accident.

Mike Levy
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Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 16:32:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: GREAT SF criteria

Greetings!
I have been reading with much interest the thread on worst SF, and would
like to know if there are any opinions on set criteria that makes a
SF novel great.  Too many plot lines, no discernible conclusion, and
just plain bad writing were mentioned as elements of bad SF, but those
are true of any fiction.
In discussions of genre fiction with fellow public library reader's
advisors, I have come to the conclusion that the elements that 
contribute to the popularity of most genres are predictable patterns.
Science fiction novels are admired when they break patterns and
introduce absolutely unfamiliar characters and plots.  This may also
be why long series become so mundane to SF readers; the thrill of the
unpredictable that opening a new world brings is greatly lessened.
Are there exceptions when predictability is welcomed in SF?
Is my analysis of the criteria that sets SF apart from other fiction
too general?
Katherine     ([log in to unmask])
From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 26 17:37:12 1995
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From: Arthur Hlavaty <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF in Bloom's The Western Canon
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On Fri, 26 May 1995, Bob Roehm wrote:

> 
> Andy Sawyer wonders why John Crowley was included in Harold Bloom's list.

Crowley is interested in the Gnostics an other occult thinkers Bloom is 
interested in.

Arthur D. Hlavaty             [log in to unmask]
Church of the SuperGenius   In Wile E. We Trust
From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 26 18:51:15 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Resnick Glorified

Er... Mike who?  Hm.  I do read, perhaps I've missed your book somewhare?

LfngBadger
From [log in to unmask]  Fri May 26 18:51:16 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Reading Speed

I find I read very quickly when reading fiction, occasionally even glossing
to `find out what happens next'. 

 A bit more slowly if the plot is complicated or I think there's a clue of
some sort hiding there ( or if the description of something is detailed).

Average speed for non-fiction, history particularly.  Occasionally re-reading
sections to remind myself who or what is being talked about.  (Since history,
when properly written about, is interesting but not as tidy as a novel.)

And almost glacial when deciphering technical books.  I dunno; I think
computer book authors are another species.


From [log in to unmask]  Sat May 27 00:20:33 1995
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Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 14:09:34 +1000 (EST)
From: Mr RW Farnell <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF in Bloom's The Western Canon
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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I doubt if there is any consistent criteria for Bloom's inclusion of some
SF titles/authors and the exclusion of others. The construction of
'canons' is such a problematically subjective process that they must
always be regarded simply as one person's/society's (culturally
inscribed/informed) opinion.
I have heard though that Bloom does make an interesting reference to SF in
_Western Canon_ in regards to Milton's _Paradise Lost_. He claims that
teaching this work as SF makes it more comprehensible (digestable?) to
today's students. (I am paraphrasing here) The implications of this, numerous
and interesting, are not followed up. The continuing thread of -Paradise
Lost_ through _Frankenstein_ and all amounts of 'posthuman' SF, including
'texts' such as _Bladerunner_ etc. One doubts however if _Bladerunner_
would figure in Bloom's Canon!!
Ross
Monash Uni, Cultural Studies. Aust.

From cstu  Sat May 27 16:34:12 1995
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From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Resnick Glorified
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Oh, how the mighty have fallen!  Mike has written numerous works and 
edited many compilations also.  Try a search in your local library as 
well as the book store and a copy of _Books in Print_.  
Colleen
_________________________________________________________________________
Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian    [log in to unmask]
Library of Congress                                  (202) 707-4132
Washington, DC 20540-4861                       FAX: (202) 707-4142
These opinions are mine, Mine MINE!       
__________________________________________________________________________



On Sat, 27 May 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Er... Mike who?  Hm.  I do read, perhaps I've missed your book somewhare?
> 
> LfngBadger
> 

From shal  Sat May 27 11:18:04 1995
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From: "Stephanie A. Hall" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Bloom's Western Canon (long post)
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Bloom's list is not a bad start. The fact that several sf works are 
included is significant. But the works he includes are those that, for 
reasons of marketing or haphazard word-of-mouth have crossed over to the 
narrow realm of mainstream literature.  The fact that the _Left Hand of 
Darkness_ is included but _The Disposessed_ is not is telling. Although 
_The Dispossessed_ may be LeGuin's greatest work, and speaks to a long 
literary history of utopian novels, it did not "cross over" to be read by 
literary scholars. Because feminist scholars adopted _Left Hand_ and 
brought it into the sphere of literary scholars, it was recognized.

More and more experimental fiction is being marketed as SF.  
Fantasy-realism, which once would have found a place among mainstream 
works, now is marketed as SF.  The significant upsurge in fantasy-realism 
as a late-twentieth century literary movement has largly escaped the 
world of academic literature as a result.  These are decisions in 
marketing that make sense to dealers -- they put the books where 
the paying readers will find them.  

Dealers may define what is mainstream and what is SF. So may academics.  
I sat through a graduate seminar on "tragedy" in which the professor 
postulated that there were no American authors writing tragedy any more 
because Americans could not cope with tragedy, and gave several examples 
from the accepted mainstream.  I sat through two long lectures on this 
subject before I finally burst out with the observation that the 
contemporary tragedian James Tiptree Jr. lived and wrote (at that 
time) successfully accross the river in Virginia (but no one in the 
seminar had heard of her), and that remake of _The Invasion of the Body 
Snatchers_ had American audiences lined up around the block that week.  
Which Americans couldn't cope with tragedy?  My comments went largely 
ignored and later the professor privately suggested to me that I was in the 
wrong field (so, he was right).  Tragedy has been largly defined out of 
mainstream literature by the literati themselves. Tragedy has understandably 
grown to embrace a global worldview -- the fall of Denmark isn't tragedy 
anymore, what we fear is the end of the world. But by definition, any 
story about the end of the world is SF, and therefore falls outside  
mainstream literature.

Bloom's list includes _Cat's Cradle_, a twentieth century tragedy that, 
because of the literary connections of the author broke through into the 
mainstream.  But there are many novels of armegeddon that deserve more 
recognition than _Cat's Cradle_. It just happened to be the one to cross 
over.

In many ways the distain of the literati is a good thing. Experimentation 
and growth often occurs on the fringes.  When their work is published as SF, 
experimental authors can escape the pedantic criticism of mainstream scholars 
and concentrate on their art. I do find it odd, though, to converse with an 
expert on tragedy (as above) who has never read Tiptree, or a scholar of 
contemporary fiction by women who has never heard of Cherryh.  

Literary scholars are begining to take a better look at SF, as Bloom's 
list shows, and I think they will increasingly do so. After all, pretty 
soon there may be nothing left of interest on that narrow shelf of approved 
contemporary literature and they are going to have to wonder where all 
the novelists went.

Stephanie

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist           The Library of Congress
American Folklife Center               preserves and houses
Library of Congress                    countless ideas and opinions.
Washington, DC 20540-8100              Those expressed here 
[log in to unmask]                           are my own.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


From [log in to unmask]  Sat May 27 11:28:36 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Canonization

Hi!
I'm coming out of lurk mode rather breifly on this holiday weekend (my
husband is, literaly, waiting by the door to GO!)
The durability of a book over time is one way to determine it's inclusion in
a canon, but the number of references made to a book (or author) by other
authors in the genre is another. I'm thinking of (I believe) _A Canticle for
Leibowitz_ and _R.U.R._ If memory serves correctly, _Canticle_ has a
reference to _RUR_ - and if _RUR_ were refered to by several SF authors, then
_RUR_ should be in the canon.
does this make sense?
I'd be interested to hear of any other inter-referencing between authors that
folks can come up with.
Luck!
Adora
[log in to unmask]
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From: [log in to unmask] (Topicos Especiales)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re:sf great criteria
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 13:10:29 -0500 (CDT)
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Hello:

   IMHO all the subgenres of fiction (fantasy, detective's stories, etc)
in their  own way are looking for new patterns, cause if not the people
will come bored of it very easily ( if the thing that happened to me
with heroic fantasy). Terror is the genre that it is more clear. I
accept that frecuently the  different areas of fiction are unable of get
new patterns, but it is true too for SF. Of course, by definition, the
sf is the genre in wich with more easiness we could found new patterns,
but is not an exclusive characteristic of the genre.
   IMHO again, if we are looking for criteria that could set sf appart
from other fiction genres, we must begin trying to give a definition to
science fiction. This is a ancient problem, but in the end, I think, the
topics (topics of future, time travel, ET, etc) are the ones that make a
sf story. Then I believe that are escencially the topics that make sf
different of other fiction genres.
   Predictable patterns are relatively welcomed in sf, if not how could explain
the success of Asimov, only just an example? 
Bye

Rodrigo Juri
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Sat May 27 17:02:38 1995
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From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF in Bloom's The Western Canon
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask]

Not a single text by Asimov, Clarke or Heinlein in Bloom's Canon.

What does this mean?

That absolutely nothing these three have ever written has any bearing to 
SF as literature?

That he judges authors strictly by their intricate use of language?

Or that Science and technology do not mean much to him?

From [log in to unmask]  Sat May 27 21:01:15 1995
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Date:         Sat, 27 May 95 20:57:31 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject:      Re: Wm. Mark Simmons -Reply
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Tue, 23 May 1995 13:46:54 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

Hi John,

>Louisiana and working in a radio station there.
>He just turned in a new book.  Not sure what it
>is about.  Took him a while to write because

Thanks for the info, John. All this time, I had
been wondering if he had died off, or vanished
in the outback ;-)  Can you find out any details
on the next book?  Since Questar doesn't exist
anymore under its own imprint, mail has a habit
of vanishing when sent to its offices ;-)  Is
there any way to contact Mark - hmmm...too bad
he's not on the Net. - Sean -
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Date:         Sat, 27 May 95 21:02:13 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject:      Re: Wm. Mark Simmons
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Tue, 23 May 1995 13:55:59 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]>

Hi JOE!

>I enjoyed both books, the first a tad more than the second.  There should
>obviously be a third;  WHEN DREAMS COLLIDE did end on a bit of a
>cliffhanger.  However, I've yet to see or hear anything about another
>Simmons offering . . .  It's nice to know someone out there enjoyed the
>books as well.  If you hear anything, let me know.  I'll do the same.

Certainly the first book was the best - the second was enjoyable, but
the variations in Ripley (omega, alpha) was giving me a headache.
I do like his use of literary elements to refer to scenes within
the book (a la the chinese butterfly bit) and his handling of fantasy
within the cyber-tech world he created is interesting enough - I assume
you've read the other reply to my request (about Simmons living in
Lousiana and whatnot) I can't wait for the 3rd book.
                       - Sean -
From [log in to unmask]  Sun May 28 14:36:33 1995
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Date: Sun, 28 May 95 14:36 EDT
From: [log in to unmask] (cb52)
Subject: Re: Bloom's Western Canon (long post) 
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> 

Stephanie A. Hall wrote:

>
>Bloom's list is not a bad start. The fact that several sf works are 
>included is significant. But the works he includes are those that, for 
>reasons of marketing or haphazard word-of-mouth have crossed over to the 
>narrow realm of mainstream literature.  The fact that the _Left Hand of 
>Darkness_ is included but _The Disposessed_ is not is telling. Although 
>_The Dispossessed_ may be LeGuin's greatest work, and speaks to a long 
>literary history of utopian novels, it did not "cross over" to be read by 
>literary scholars. Because feminist scholars adopted _Left Hand_ and 
>brought it into the sphere of literary scholars, it was recognized.
>

Right you are!

>More and more experimental fiction is being marketed as SF.
>Fantasy-realism, which once would have found a place among mainstream 
>works, now is marketed as SF.  The significant upsurge in fantasy-realism 
>as a late-twentieth century literary movement has largly escaped the 
>world of academic literature as a result.  These are decisions in 
>marketing that make sense to dealers -- they put the books where 
>the paying readers will find them.  
>

This is certainly true but experimental fiction like J.G. Ballard and even
Jeff Noon's __Vurt__ was pushed among the mainstream works.  Ballard even
gets a bit of attention from mainstream literary critics (as has Noon to
some extent, albeit a more mixed one.)  William Gibson and Bruce Sterling
are also given some attention in the "mainstream" given the increasing
public knowledge of the internet.  If they are smart, booksellers will
pushed quality cyberpunk not as being mainstream, but as being "smart"
SF.  This may not be that great for SF as a whole though.





C. Douglas Baker
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
        [log in to unmask]
From [log in to unmask]  Sun May 28 14:43:19 1995
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Sun, 28 May 95 14:43 EDT
From: [log in to unmask] (cb52)
Subject: Re: Re: SF in Bloom's The Western Canon 
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> 

>

>
>Not a single text by Asimov, Clarke or Heinlein in Bloom's Canon.
>
>What does this mean?
>

That Bloom's list is err, junk.

>That absolutely nothing these three have ever written has any bearing to
>SF as literature?
>

Some claim that all modern SF comes from these three, especially Heinlein.
I can't say I disagree. I can't think of one SF convention that was not first
introduced by one of the three.  Even cyberpunk has roots there.




C. Douglas Baker
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
        [log in to unmask]
From [log in to unmask]  Sun May 28 17:38:40 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Resnick Glorified
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Perhaps you have.

Try the other 71.

-- Mike Resnick
From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 29 01:19:47 1995
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Date: Mon, 29 May 95 04:56:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: SF-LIT digest 115
X-Genie-Id: 2319585
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

My name is George and I'm a Days of Our Lives addict.
 
(Hi, George)
 
This weekend I attended a soap opera fan convention.  After 25 years of
being at conventions and signing books, I'm at a con where I'm standing in
line waiting to get something signed.  Look, I don't drink or smoke, so I
think I'm entitled to _one_ vice.  I watch Days of Our Lives, and I have for
fifteen years.
 
I mention this because I told one of the actors that the show had taught me
a great deal about how to handle a good villain.  Of course, writers know
that one good villain is worth ten heroes.  Darth Vader was immensely more
interesting than Luke Skywalker.  From watching Days, I learned that you
never punish the bad guy; you give him a lieutenant who always takes the
fall, dies, or goes to prison.  The real villain goes on and on, and gives
the fans someone they love to hate.  I told this actor that the cover of THE
EXILE KISS shows my villain, and he looks a lot like the actor (John
Aniston, who plays Victor Kiriakis).  This isn't an accident.  Mr. Aniston
was surprised and pleased, and asked me to send him the book.
 
Soap operas are, in a way, as despised a medium as SF is in certain
quarters, yet I've found out that the actors, directors, and writers
certainly believe they're doing their best and putting out the best possible
product.  And I'm grateful to learn a writing technique wherever I can, even
if it's from a TV soap opera.
 
I'll shut up now, having publicly disgraced myself, no doubt.  Just
remember: very few people in any genre or medium consciously set out to
write junk.  Readers or viewers may think it's junk, but that's another
matter entirely.  I find honest originality and creativity rare enough that
I applaud it, even if it's sandwiched between two fabric softener
commercials.
 
(signed) "A Personal Friend of Robert Kelker-Kelly"
From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 29 09:05:30 1995
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Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 10:05:47 -0300 (ADT)
From: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Help with Story Identification
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I am writing a book on aliens in science fiction, and this story,
which has haunted me for 25 years, deserves a mention. 

The action takes place in the far future in a multi-species
galaxy. The protagonist, through whose eyes we see the events of
the story, is a young human male. He and his companion, an older
man, are engaged in what might be described as colonial
administration (roughly speaking), with the aliens as colonial
peoples. The older man is sick (either actually or feignedly in
order to test the younger one); the latter is therefore forced to
act as judge in a complicated court case which will test the
capacity of humans to continue to run the galactic empire. He
comes out triumphant, by a stratagem which involves instructing
the court's robot interpreter/translator to ask the witness,
"Have you stopped beating your wife?", and to "make it sound like
a joke" (i.e. the trick question it is in English).

The story was almost certainly published no later than 1968, and
possibly as early as the 1940s. It could be either British or
American, but is most probably American. It may have been
published or at least reprinted in an anthology or a collection,
although it was probably originally published in a magazine.

If you recognize the story I would be extremely grateful if you
could let me have as much information as you can: the author, the
title, and if at all possible the precise date, place, and page
references of publication. If you have a copy which you are
willing to part with, I would be more than happy to open
negotiations for purchase. Please send your suggestions directly
to me ([log in to unmask]), so that I don't clutter up the whole
list with my problem. Thank you.

*****************************************************************
patricia monk (dr)                              [log in to unmask]
                   "just visiting this planet"
*****************************************************************


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 29 11:50:44 1995
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From: Richard Wallace Oberdorfer <[log in to unmask]>
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Worst SF book
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Mon, 29 May 95 11:50:42 EDT
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>; from "[log in to unmask]" at May 21, 95 4:13 pm
X-Mailer: PENELM [version 2.3.1 PL11]

According to [log in to unmask]:
> 
> In a message dated 95-05-19 07:12:08 EDT, [log in to unmask] (Richard
> Wallace)  wrote:
> 
> >The second is a book other people consider
> >a classic: Heinlein's STARSHIP TROOPERS, the content of which I
> >found respulsive in the extreme. 
> 
> Forgive my curiosity, but what about STARSHIP TROOPERS repulsed you so?
> 
> Al (who's beginning to think it's time to reread some Heinlein again) Evans
> 
> [log in to unmask]
> 
Sorry to take so long to reply, Al (and everybody else).  I
guess I had trouble with the off-hand way in which Heinlein's
protagonist blew away the aliens and came to advocate rigid
military-style discipline as the only worthy lifestyle.  I
found it anti-individual.

Gordon R. Dickson wrote a novelette (TO THE STARS, I think)that
I consider a refutation of what I came to accept as Heinlein's
position.

But, like I say, a lot of people view the book as a classic.
Well, some people like broccoli and some don't.

Richard Wallace Oberdorfer
From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 29 22:06:03 1995
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Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 18:49:28 -0700
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Geston and Lieber
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: [log in to unmask]
X-Mailer: AIR Mail 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)

                 Out of the Mouth of the Dragon
                        by Mark S. Geston

Mark Geston eulogizes in Out of the Mouth of the Dragon the final
battle. Armageddon, as the book quotes in the beginning, has been
prophesied since Revelation. Many doomsday books have been
written. Mark Geston captures the essence of the grand finale. 

Scriptures quoted appear in the Bible, and are also quoted in The
Wanderer by Fritz Lieber. The Wanderer by Fritz Lieber is a great
work because of the characterization. Many individuals face the
ultimate tragedy. The interesting aspect of Lieber's work is the
dimension of the human spirit, how we overcome melancholy and
grim fatality. Lieber masterfully integrates over a dozen persons
in the build up towards the travail. We empathize with the
situation, learn through their experience, and become more able
to handle our everyday despairs. Great books change our
perception, behavior, and affect attitudes.

Geston's Armageddon was crafted in 1969, and an equal work of
art. Where Lieber's novel is about people, Geston's book, which
is in hard back by M. Joseph,  has a spiritual aura. It will
transform you. From beginning to end, Geston's prose is elevated 
to the level of Ballard, Aldiss, and Stapleton. The quality of
his writing, even though many of our SF friends have missed 
Geston, shows complex selection of each word. His mission 
is to depict the actual dim future and flaws of mankind. At 
sometime, our character as a species may promote us toward 
the final confrontation. In the Judo-Christian mythology, we
believe that the future will end. Satan will speak evils out of
his mouth. He is the dragon and the beast. However we are
responsible to ourselves, and  it is our nature, for we are not
gods,  to cause our demise. We must not be too quick to shunt our
deficiencies to the Evil One. If we continue to repeat failures 
and compound the future with greater risk of larger consequences
, we should accept blame for our inadequacies. Our children 
can not hide under school desks in preparation for Civil Defense
drills, as we did in the 1960s. 

If there was ever a novel which will awaken concerns, this is the
novel. When the prophet calls you and performs miracles, will you
follow, or recognize the reiteration of society's old songs. The
vainglorious shall rise into another war. How will you detect the
false from the glory? This book should be read, and many times.
Even though the end is less than Heaven, we travel through Hell
and return with a vision of hope. Amon VanRoak, the protagonist,
seeks the meaning of his life and the Salvation for us. The
revelation does not reside from the mouth of the prophet, or
Satan. It comes from within us. We possess the resiliency to
overcome the quintessence of our Fall, and lack of objectivity.
If we have no resolve to break free of the bonds, damnation will 
result in the transpiration of the Soul. Virtuality is what
Geston speaks towards in his best novel. You will witness the
Armageddon of the future in this novel. Predestination, our
inevitability, need not end in travesty. Let us transcend the
destiny of the grim, and realize that we hold the keys to a
bright future. What a shame, if too few of us, learn, from the
wonderful possibilities within the grasp our holy spirit. It is
up to us, and us alone. The book will help you ponder the
reflections of your innate energy to create, and uphold Creation
as it should be.

Joe de Beauchamp
Seattle, Washington
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Mon May 29 22:14:28 1995
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Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 18:57:57 -0700
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Three Stigmata
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: [log in to unmask]
X-Mailer: AIR Mail 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)

Mark,

If you have a 1st edition of the Three Stigmata of Paul Elidrich, then it 
would be worth $1,500 each. Yes, good fortune shines on you! I will try the 
other Dick books. I have not read Dr. Bloodmoney or Game Players of Titan. 
Thank you for the recommend, and hang on to that book.


Joe de Beauchamp
Seattle, Washington
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 30 01:16:56 1995
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Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 01:16:55 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: GREAT SF criteria

Beyond the mere mechanics of great story telling, I humbly submit the other
ingredient for truly landmark SF works:

One of my professors {a scholar of lesser note} once told me something the
Department's Chairman {a scholar of substantial note} once told him, "The
greatest ideas are those that when told to almost _anyone_ will stop them
dead in their tracks and cause them to think, then remark something to the
effect of, 'Wow, that's really neat!'".

This criterion and many of the aforementioned books of this discussion, I do
believe, form a recipricating testimonial.



                                                   -BurnChrome
From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 30 04:55:23 1995
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          Tue, 30 May 1995 09:54:36 +0100
From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF in Bloom's The Western Canon
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 09:54:33 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Vaillancourt Alain" at May 27, 95 07:12:44 pm
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In the last mail Vaillancourt Alain said:
> 
> 
> 
> DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask]
> 
> Not a single text by Asimov, Clarke or Heinlein in Bloom's Canon.
> 
> What does this mean?
> 
> That absolutely nothing these three have ever written has any bearing to 
> SF as literature?
> 
> That he judges authors strictly by their intricate use of language?
> 
> Or that Science and technology do not mean much to him?

I would imagine that he is simply comparing these authors to those others
he DOES include. And he is right. neither Asimov, Clarke nor Heinlein are
little more than competent writers (descending to awfulness at times).

Their importance WITHIN sf is vast, but that is not the same thing as saying
that they will be widely read outside it.

HOwever - now that I have (I hope) offended a few people, I do feel that at
least one book by at least one of those writers will outlive their present
reputations. In my nightmares, I suspect that STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND will
represent certain aspects of the 20th century, but I hope that people will
instead read their stories&at least one novel of Clarke, whose writing does twang a chord
of poetic sympathy when he is talking about science and the physical universe,
and I think of all hard-sf writers he best expresses the use of imagination
and extrapolation when writing about scenes no human has as yet experienced.
I would like CHILDHOOD'S END and a good number of Clarke's short stories
to remain read.
I notice that while writing this I am thinking of short stories as much
if not more than novels. That field is, I think, the strength of these
writers and of much early sf.
One novel not yet mentioned so far which may - certainly should - be
canonical is Olaf Stapledon's LAST AND FIRST MEN.
Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library
The University of Liverpool
051-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
From @INDST.INDSTATE.EDU:[log in to unmask]  Tue May 30 09:52:07 1995
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From: "EJUSERS" <[log in to unmask]>
To: Richard Wallace Oberdorfer <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Date:          Tue, 30 May 1995 08:51:36 EST
Subject:       Re: Worst SF book: Dickson's response to Heinlein
Priority: normal
X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>

Dickson's book is NAKED TO THE STARS. It was written (we once 
discussed the matter) as a direct response to STARSHIP TROOPERS. --
R.D. Mullen
From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 30 12:48:01 1995
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Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 12:47:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Thomas M. Whitehead" <[log in to unmask]>
To: multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Sci-fi and proud of it!
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Forgive if this citation has been mentioned before (I'm 300
messages behind and have been deleting recently from subject
line only):

FutureSpeak. A Fan's Guide to the Language of Science Fiction.
Roberta Rogow. N.Y., Paragon House [1991]:

     "Sci-Fi (literary): Abbreviation for Science Fiction first 
used by Forrest Ackerman in the 1930s. Most Mundanes (including
many book and film critics, alas) persist in using it. Trufen
prefer SF..."

<*>------------<*>------------<*>------------<*>------------<*>
    Thomas M. Whitehead                 Special Collections
    Temple University Libraries      Philadelphia, PA 19122
<*>                                                         <*>
    Voice: 215-204-8230                   Fax: 215-204-5201
             EMail: [log in to unmask]
<*>------------<*>------------<*>------------<*>------------<*>


From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 30 17:20:22 1995
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Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 17:20:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Sci-fi and proud of it!
To: [log in to unmask]
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Rogow's wrong; Ackerman started using "sci-fi" in the 1950s, after
taking over FAMOUS MONSTERS OF FILMLAND. Her book is far inferior to
the various Fancyclopedias, and is overbalanced for media terms.

-- Mike Resnick
From [log in to unmask]  Tue May 30 23:37:40 1995
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Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 23:37:39 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF in Bloom's The Western...

Well thank you Andy Sawyer for being so kind as to allow the lowly likes of
Heinlein, Clarke, and Asimov to even be considered in the company of the
"Greats" of SF.  Let's get this straight here and now, shall we?

Robert Heinlein practically invented Science Fiction and wrote one of its
first truly great novels, "Stranger in a Strange Land".  Asimov wrote the
genre's most engaging series, "Foundation", and must surly be considered Hard
SF's most accomplished practitioner.  And finally Clarke, when history takes
it's measure, will I hope be remembered as "The Grand Unifier".  Such an
illustrious title is only befitting to one who could at once stir the average
person to climb theater screens, as they did in 1968, and dispatch them
towards orderly discourse, as he did in 1945.

When one of your three-or-so-novel-flash-in-the-pans does something more than
spin a well crafted tale, like say invent the communications sattelite, do
let me know.  Until then I shall be engrossed within the pages of true and
lasting genius.


                                                       -PE "BurnChrome" Rosen
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To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 08:42:39 +0100 (BST)
From: Andy Butler <[log in to unmask]>
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The Apotheosis of the Hamburger
The Newsletter of the AFFN - number 9, June 1995



Conference: Speaking Science Fiction

11-13 July 1996 Who speaks Science Fiction?  Science Fiction is a series
of dialogues: between realism and the fantastic; between its "pulp" and
"literary"  wings; between hard science and harder philosophy, between its
sub-genres from space-opera to cyberpunk. The debate continues: between
practitioners and archivists; linguists and physicists, academics and
fans. Existing within and between national traditions, science fiction
speaks literally, as metaphor and narrative, and figuratively, as a
reflection of the outer world and inner space, and is spoken by many who
do not read it - merely live it in their everyday lives.  Is the attention
given to science fiction by cultural theorists and the world of
information technology a sign of health oris it a dialogue which ignores
the genre's past and undermines its future? Speaking Science Fiction will
look at the languages of SF: the dialogues and discourses within the field
and between it and other areas of knowledge and culture. Papers touching
on any of these debates will be welcome. Please send a 250-word abstract
to the the address address below.  For further information, contact: Andy
Sawyer, Librarian / Administrator, Science Fiction Foundation Collection,
Sydney Jones Library, PO Box 123 LIVERPOOL L69 3DA, UK. 

Call For Proposals

"Mental Abilities" will be a special topic issue of the Journal of the
Fantastic in the Arts, to be edited by H. L. Drake, Millersville
University, U.S.A.  It is scheduled for publication in mid-1997 or early
1998.  The topic is "mental abilities" in science fiction-science fantasy
stories.  Preference will be given to international and multicultural
proposals on the following: "(1) an historical perspective which compares
and contrasts past-to-contemporary stories establishing a socio-
economic-political literary pattern regarding mental abilities; and, (2)
an SF author who seems to have a message regarding the necessity for real
life human mental improvements. Published authors may write about
themselves and their work regarding 'mental abilities'." Proposals from
outside of the United States are encouraged. Finished papers are to be
from three to six thousand words in length, but proposals only are wanted
at this stage. Deadline for proposals is October 1, 1995.  Send 100-200
word proposals and a business size SASE to: H. L. Drake, JFA Special
Issue, Communication & Theatre Department, Millersville University,
Millersville, Pennsylvania 17551, USA.  E-mail to [log in to unmask] 
millersv.edu

Homepages

Ask your friendly neighbourhood computer expert what a homepage is: it's
basically a gateway to electronic sources of information which its owner
has found of interest / of use.  To access them you need to be able to use
the World Wide Web and know the homepage's URL (technobabble for address),
and then, by the miracles of modern technology, you can leap to the
resources.  That's the theory anyway. 

Andy Sawyer is constructing one for the Science Fiction Foundation
Collection. This has details of the SFFC, Foundation, Friends of
Foundation, the M.A. at Liverpool and access to Ansible, Postmodern
Culture and all sorts of bibliographies and sf / fantasy resources.  The
URL is:  http://www.liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html This page also gives
access to Homepages on Philip K. Dick, J. R. R. Tolkien, Frank Herbert and
Terry Pratchett. Craig Sauer is constructing a homepage about J.G.
Ballard.  If anyone on this list is interested in helping him or has
information about other Ballard net resources (such as a Mailing list?)
contact him at [log in to unmask] The URL is
http://www.simons-rock.edu/~craigs/ballard.html (and let us know as
well). I know of two other homepages which may be of interest: one on
Robert A Heinlein (http://www.clarke.net/ahasuer/heinlein/heinlein.html)
[This is accessible via the Philip K. Dick Homepage, which is accessible
via the Science Fiction Foundation Collection Homepage] and one on Doc
Savage (http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/docfaq.html).  If you know of any
more such resources, please let me know. 



Conference Digest

17 - 19 July 1995 Charlotte Perkins Gilman: Optimist Reformer.  Details 
from Val Gough, Department of English, University of Liverpool, 
Liverpool, L69 3BX, UK.

26 - 29 July 1995 The Time Machine: Past, Present and Future.  Details 
from Professor Patrick Parrinder, 82 Hillfield Avenue, Crouch End, 
London, N8 7DN, UK [Phone (0181) 3406355].

24 - 25 November 1995 Postfaction: The Step Beyond Postmodernism and 
Its Fiction.  Proposals to: Postfaction, Centre for Research in Philosophy 
and Literature, University of Warwick, Coventry CV4 7AL, UK, E-mail: 
[log in to unmask] by July 31, 1995.

***************************************************************************

The small print: The Apotheosis of the Hamburger is the newsletter of the
Academic Fantastic Fiction Network and is edited by Andy Butler who can be
contacted via English Department, Hull University, Hull, HU6 7RX, UK Phone
(01482) 472922 (after 6 pm, and please leave name and number if I'm not
there). E-Mail address [log in to unmask] but it can be
temperamental.  Copies of this newsletter will be available via e-mail. 
Please feel free to copy and distribute to interested parties.  Respect
due: David Hipple, James Kneale, Andy Sawyer.  "SF is openly and avowedly
ontological, i.e., like 'mainstream' postmodernist writing it is
self-consciously 'world-building' fiction, laying bare the process of
fictional world-making itself." 

****************************************************************************
From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 31 12:50:54 1995
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  (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for <[log in to unmask]>); Wed, 31 May 1995 18:50:41 +0100
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Wed, 31 May 1995 18:46:44 +0000
Subject:       Re: Out of Print books
X-Confirm-Reading-To: [log in to unmask]
X-Pmrqc:       1
Priority: normal
X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22)

 Hi everyone, i m talking from Portugal and this is my first posting 
to this list. 
  I m interested in buying second hand sf books (mainly because they 
are out of print ), and  i have heard that a house called Pandora s Books is
 putting her catalogues on line - on Compuserv. Is it on the computserv s mall?
 And , is that list avaible over the internet? 
   I would apreciate very much is anyone could answer my questions.
                                                      Thank you
                                             [log in to unmask]
From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 31 15:26:06 1995
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          CST
Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 13:46:23 CST
From: DENISE INGLIS <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: SF-LIT digest 115

From: [log in to unmask]
>the fans someone they love to hate.  I told this actor that the cover of THE
>EXILE KISS shows my villain, and he looks a lot like the actor (John
>Aniston, who plays Victor Kiriakis).  This isn't an accident.  Mr. Aniston
>was surprised and pleased, and asked me to send him the book.

In a related note...

Does anyone else think that the guy on the cover of Patricia
Keneally-Morrison's _The Oak Above the Kings_ looks a heckuva lot like Jim
Morrison of the Doors?  (I know they used to be married.)

Denise Inglis
[log in to unmask] 
From cstu  Wed May 31 19:38:45 1995
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Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 19:38:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Where to do what
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

	Recently I have been getting more and more postings to the list 
which really should be sent to the listproc, so here is my handy guide:

If you want to send a message for *Everyone* to see, send it to:
 [log in to unmask]

If you want to signoff or change your account settings, sent the commands to:
 [log in to unmask]

If you need help or are in doubt about anything to do with the list, 
contact me at:
 [log in to unmask]

Hope this helps send the mail where it should go!

Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 31 19:56:45 1995
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 by yvax.byu.edu (PMDF V5.0-3 #7277) id <[log in to unmask]> for
 [log in to unmask]; Wed, 31 May 1995 17:56:15 -0600 (MDT)
Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 17:56:15 -0600 (MDT)
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: UFO (Unidentified Fragmentary Observation
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

        Is anyone familiar with "the famous mokusatsu incident"?

        I overheard a brief reference to it and supposed (erroneously) that
it was a reference to Capt. Kirk reprogramming the training computer when
it confronted him with a no-win situation.  Now that I discover my error,
I'm left with the haunting feeling that I ought to recognize the reference
but can't.

        Does this appear in some SF work (please credit me with avoiding
"sci-fi") either as an imaginative creation or as a reference to some real
situation possibly involving politics or language translation?

        If anyone can help, please respond to me directly so that we don't
clutter the communication system.

[log in to unmask]
Phone: (801) 378-2456
FAX: (801) 378-4720

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 31 20:38:05 1995
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	(1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA140487085; Wed, 31 May 1995 20:38:05 -0400
Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 20:38:05 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: SFA essay

Mike,
     Your essay in the current issue of _Science Fiction Age_ was
interesting, especially as it fit well with many of your current postings.
 At least you're consistant.

     Ummm, you Worldcon GOH????  Well, probably (certainly no false modesty.)
 If you weren't nominated for so many awards.  (curious, though what is the
record for GOH with the most award nominations for the current con?)

     Do you think a new writer at a Worldcon today would be met with the same
treatment you recieved at your first Worldcon?  Assuming s/he knew enough to
_not_ use THAT pseudo word.

     As you wrote for SFA would you ask the eds. why the May issue had two
covers?  Inquiring minds want to know.

From [log in to unmask]  Wed May 31 20:56:17 1995
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Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 19:51:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: Daniel S Goodman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: re: Kenneally-Morrison
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII


On Wed, 31 May 1995, DENISE INGLIS wrote:

> Does anyone else think that the guy on the cover of Patricia
> Keneally-Morrison's _The Oak Above the Kings_ looks a heckuva lot like Jim
> Morrison of the Doors?  (I know they used to be married.)

Some people doubt this.  There was extensive discussion on SF-Lovers.  As 
I recall the ground for skepticism:  The marriage ceremony was private, 
there was no government involvement to create a record, and the groom is 
not available for questioning.

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