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SF-LIT  June 1995

SF-LIT June 1995

Subject:

LISTPROC Problems

From:

Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 14 Jun 1995 13:15:10 -0400 (EDT)

Content-Type:

TEXT/PLAIN

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

TEXT/PLAIN (24304 lines)

	As many of you will have noticed, SF-LIT was been having some 
problems since Monday.  A change in some software caused the system to 
not recognize me and thus I could not approve any messages.  But I do 
have everything that was sent and I will start approving it now.  I am 
sorry this took so long and thank you for your patience.
Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]

From cstu  Wed Jun 14 13:57:06 1995
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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 06:41:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Andy Sawyer: A Heinlein speech
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 13:57:04 -0400 (EDT)
Resent-From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
Resent-To: [log in to unmask]
Resent-Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>

From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: A Heinlein speech
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 17:25:34 +0100 (BST)

Does anyone know details of a speech Robert A Heinlein gave to the 
Naval Academy in the 1970s? Is it in print anywhere?
-- 
Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool
PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK
0151-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html

"Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight)



From cstu  Wed Jun 14 14:03:37 1995
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:03:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Joe de Beauchamp: geston 
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 09:33:40 -0700
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: geston

                       The Siege of Wonder
                        by Mark S. Geston

'I desire no other monument than the laughter of the madmen I
have caused to set loose upon the universe'. This is the cannon
which will greet you at the beginning of Mark S. Geston's fourth
novel. Mark S. Geston wrote Lords of the Starship, Out of the
Mouth of the Dragon, The Day Star, and The Siege of Wonder. These
were written in 1967, 1969, 1972,  and 1976. Recently, Mr. Geston
completed his fifth novel, nearly twenty years later, Mirror to
the Sky, 1992, and can be found at Barnes and Noble Bookstore.
The Siege of Wonder can be collected in hard back by the
publisher Doubleday, and the paper back version was done by Dawn
Books.

In 1945 C.S. Lewis published the third novel in a Trilogy, That
Hideous Strength. Lewis attributed the novel to his long time
friend J.R.R. Tollkien. He sees similar ideas in of the writing
of Mr. Olaf Stapledon's Star Maker. I thought of That Hideous
Strength when I read The Siege of Wonder. Both novels are crafted
exquisitely and in a lyrical quality. Lewis, of course, was and
English professor in England, and this explains his eloquent
style, a constant ivory tower environment. Geston is the son of a
book reviewer, English major, journalist mother. Even though
Geston has some precursor talent from his antecedent, his flair
for words far transcends his given aptitude. When you read this
novel, it is an eminent achievement, by Geston,  to write novels
of high caliber Science Fiction. His position will be in high
standing, as he becomes more recognized.

The content of both works revolves around magic and myth. Both
novels have conflicts between legends, and the real world. There
are mythical creatures in the novels. The contrast is in Lewis's
desire to treat Christianity. The primary direction of That
Hideous Strength is to explain good and evil. Geston explores the
realm of reason, logic, and fact. 

The Siege of Wonder begins  with war between men and folklore.
Mankind is using science to decipher the content of our lore's
existence. Humanity discovered, many years before the war,
certain formulas which allow the duplication of our fable's
powers. Now in this distant future, we are able to combat the
necromancy of the wizards. We will analyze each electron,
spectrum of light, and dimension of resource which our legends
have used. Then, the men of power will broadcast the magician's
essence, in order to defeat them. Fight fire with fire. These
"wonders" are driven back, and eventually loose. The world
finishes in practical information, without beautiful stories to
tell. There are no heroics. The void is filled with computers,
antennae, and raw logic. The men coldly calculated their job, and
sacrificed the dimension beyond our perception. We defined
everything. We categorized until there were no allegories left to
tell. Science reigns to the defeat of fiction. Rationalization
will become the religion of this futurist existence. Effects will
have their causes. Arguments will have their proofs. Truth and
knowledge will rule, and reality will be precisely understood, to
the last infinitesimal particle. 

There is no laughter remaining, only explanations. A sterile and
antiseptic world has no room for madmen.  What a question and
what a life. Without the wonder, is it very difficult to overcome
despair? There is no Hope!  The men learn, finally and when it is
too late, what they lost and wish they had. We won the war and
lost it. From this sorrow, a few good men emerge with
illumination and enlightenment that there must be more. Thank
God, the Unicorn will return.




Joe de Beauchamp
Seattle, Washington
[log in to unmask]




From cstu  Wed Jun 14 14:09:54 1995
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:09:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Adora: Re: Ringworld
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 13:06:54 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Ringworld

I like the _Ringworld_ suggestion, but Teela Brown isn't one of my favorite
characters - rather stereotypical (in my humble opinion), and in need of
updating.
You're right about the special affect though - talk about a project!!!

Adora
[log in to unmask]


From cstu  Wed Jun 14 14:12:51 1995
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:12:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Adora: Re: Plot???
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 13:04:00 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Plot???

Boris said:
Anyway, I agree with one true postulate -
there is only one plot in literature - Odyssey.
*********
End Quote

I'm confused. Do you mean the _Odyssey_ (read: ancient greek book) or
'odessey' (read: persons partaking of a journey)?
This isn't a challange - just a question.

Adora
[log in to unmask]


From cstu  Wed Jun 14 14:17:23 1995
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:17:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Eric A. Johnson: RE: Libraries and SF Collections 
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 15:30:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Eric A. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE:  Libraries and SF Collections


A while back a couple of you asked about how libraries organize SF.  
Well, the Library of Congress is not a good example because what SF we do 
acquire is either mixed in with the mainstream literature (this has its 
upside and its downside) or is put in a box and "added" to the special 
collections (where access is severely limited).  Anyways, you might want to 
track down a copy of the following guide to the way things might be done:

A guide to science fiction and fantasy in the Library of Congress 
classification scheme / Michael Burgess.  2nd ed., rev.  San Bernadino, 
CA : Borgo Press, 1988.  

If you're looking to organize an SF collection, this might help.  It 
lists both subject headings from the LCSH and classification numbers from 
the schedules.  Of course it helps if your library is already 
LC-cataloging compatible ...

Also, there was a nice review of SF reference books in the October 24, 1994 
issue of AB BOOKMAN'S WEEKLEY by L.W. Currey (pp. 1648-1657) called 
"Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror Literature."  This will point you 
to the essential books that should be in any SF reference collection and 
can be used for either evaluating your overall SF collection or determining 
what you should try to acquire (e.g., Michael Burgess' _Reference Guide to
Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror ; Neil Barron's _Anatomy of Wonder_
[all editions] ; Neil Barron's _Fantasy Literature_ ; and so on).

And I still owe various people a description of SF at LC ...



*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| Eric A. Johnson				|     *OPINIONS MINE*     |
| Senior Exchange Specialist (Baltics & CIS)	|			  |
| & Recommending Officer for Science Fiction	|  Voice:  (202) 707-9498 |
| Exchange & Gift Division (COLL/E&G/EES)	|  FAX:    (202) 707-2086 |
| Library of Congress, LM 632			|  Email:    [log in to unmask]  |
| Washington, DC  20540-4240  USA		|			  |
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

		"Reality is that which, when you stop 
		 believing in it, doesn't go away."

				Philip K. Dick, 1928-1982



From cstu  Wed Jun 14 14:21:19 1995
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:21:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From [log in to unmask]: The X-files
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 16:59:14 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: The X-files

Who writes the screenplays and are there any actual scientific basis to them?


From cstu  Wed Jun 14 14:23:12 1995
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:23:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From [log in to unmask]: Please advise
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 20:13:07 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Please advise.

Is there such thing as "Secret Government Files", like the TV program, "The
X-Files". 

And what about the so-called Sceret Files from the KGB that discuss 
UFO and alien encounters.

Does any one have anything to comment about this or is this all Sci-Fi for
the Tabloids.


From cstu  Wed Jun 14 16:43:53 1995
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 16:43:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Phil "BurnChrome" Rosen: Re: 1989 Hugo - I think
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 22:19:18 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 1989 Hugo - I Think

Fiona asked which novel won the 1989 Hugo Award.  As the Hugos, unlike the
Nebulas {or is it the other way around}, are awarded the year after the
actual publication date of the honored work {or is it the other way around,
oops, regular repeating time-slips highly unlikely}, I'd hazard to say it was
Dan Simmons' _Hyperion_.

Rather a harrowing tale of seven very different beings on a joint quest to
find the missing parts of their respective lives.  Set upon a world shrouded
in ancient mysteries, the novel culminates in their confrontation with an
animated cutlery shop known simply as the 'Shrike'.  Oh by the way, Simmons
wrote a sequal called _The Fall of Hyperion_ (I think).  It didn't win any
awards and I haven't gotten around to it yet.

I hope I was able to get something right, or at least make someone LOL.



                             -Phil "BurnChrome" Rosen


From cstu  Wed Jun 14 16:55:12 1995
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 16:55:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Richard Scott: Congo squared (fwd)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 21:39:33 -0500 (CDT)
From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Congo squared (fwd)



AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 00:44:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Congo squared

Well, read this Thursday, saw the movie Sunday. Book was better, a good 
story. Movie was better than dorker reviewers who said it sucked. It was 
average to ok. They of course Hollywooded it up, making it schmaltzier 
with the voice for Amy being a cute little girl rather than her just 
doing hand signals, and adding the VR type bit in. Also Ross was not the 
amoral corporate scumbag she was in the book, but a smiley blonde type, 
and they threw in a throwaway pointless relationship element between her 
and the member of the first team that was last seen on camera. The famous 
Bruce Carpenter of Evil Dead fame :)

They also threw in Tim Curry as a Romanian adventurer searching for the 
lost city of Zinj for some reason.

Also, rather than a Ross-led expedition racing a rival company, it was 
just the one expedition and Ross horns in on Elliott's plane, rather tha 
duping him into bringing Amy on hers as in the novel. Joe Don "Edge of 
Darkness _Darius Jedburgh" Baker was the head of hte company Ross worked 
for, but he was after the diamonds directly, not as an agent for the 
other company competing with the Japanese. Company named changed from 
EFTS or whatever to TCS, too.

Munro, the Great White Hunter metamorphosed into Winston T. Zedmore, 
which was quite amusing. Also in The Crow, I believe :)


AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place




From cstu  Wed Jun 14 16:59:07 1995
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 16:59:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Richard Scott: Re: Diamond Mask/fire away (fwd)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 21:39:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Diamond Mask/fire away (fwd)



AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 00:14:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Diamond Mask/fire away

Right, but Mark jumping off to another galaxy to increase its evolution 
towards unity and then an ethereal race (Lylmik) that were basically 
examples of mental Man were a bit of a dead giveaway, or gave me strong 
suspicions that hey, I bet Marc was involved in this... or, why would the 
Lylmik let immature humans in without a pro-human reason? i.e. Marc being
part of the Lylmik... all this seemed to tie in well, and gave me about a 
95% confidence interval, and then when you see the new books and Uncle 
Rogi, it is blatantly obvious then. But still fun. :-)

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place




From cstu  Wed Jun 14 17:03:42 1995
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:03:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Joe de Beauchamp: Geston-a review
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 21:54:09 -0700
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Geston-a review

Mirror in the Sky
by Mark S. Geston

A lump of coal is opaque, black, cold, and  inert. Through the
centuries, with heat, tension, and pressure; coal is transmuted 
into a diamond. This precious gem becomes a translucent beauty of
illustrious value. The properties metamorphosed into the hardest
substance, and an eternally lasting treasure. Dull coal ignites
and burns out. A diamond crystal coruscates, animates light, and
inspires exaltation forever. Through nearly twenties years,
Geston has dealt with domestics, and the trials of being an
attorney. Certainly, some stresses in life are warranted. This
has sharpened his dimension of observation and his gift for
writing. His latest novel, Mirror in the Sky, is his most
magnificent jewel to date. It will have a profound and enormous
change in the way you view life, and the way life will become.

In this near distant future, an alien species arrives from a far
constellation. They become our gods because of their advances in
technology. Even in outward appearances, the gods have no
physical imperfections. Their temperament strikes from their
possessed mild compassion.  When the gods descend to planet
Earth, a painter by the name of Rane wishes to display the
artwork of his culture. Rane, once and many decades ago, crafted
a preponderance of a painting, which had deep insight for the
gods. Rane's painting caused such a tumultuous affect, it lifted
the spirits of the gods to travel to the stars. What did the gods
see in the picture? The ultra-reality of terror cast a shadow
over their future, and they knew their own demise. The gods felt
the desire to search and face the threat. By venturing to new
horizons, maybe, they could prolong their fate to come. 

The gods believed, in sharing their culture, that mankind would
elucidate the destiny proscribed. They were surprised that the
humans related with the painting. Riots broke out. Chaos and mob
rule became prominent course of action. Most of the gods were
revolted by the reactions of the Earthlings, and withdrew in a
panic. How could the human race KNOW  the depth of the picture?
The portrayal was actuality and fact, to the gods and the few
gifted mortals. Such painful realization forced them to depart
with a few chosen Earthlings. When they left, the vacuum and void
was filled with moral decay of our kindred race. 

Rane remained behind and became inspired by our tribal feuds.
This disorder and pell mell confusion caused a FUSION of his
artistic abilities. Divine power moved through his psyche. He
rendered his last portrait. The forces provoked a quantum leap in
his talents. A picture of mammoth consequences revealed the
truthfulness to all peoples of all times. In a paragon utopian
view, an ideal future rose as a phoenix from the ruinous ashes.
Confidence was instilled in a new beginning. In the prevision of
the painting, this god creates a wondrous image. Geston's book is
a marvelous macrocosm of the cosmos, a object of beauty like a
resplendent diamond.



Joe de Beauchamp
[log in to unmask]




From cstu  Wed Jun 14 17:27:15 1995
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:27:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Roberta Johnson: Re: SF in Cine -- A Nominee
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 10:54:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robert Johnson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF in Cine -- A Nominee



On Sun, 11 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> And my choice for SF story I'd most like to see given cinematic NDT
> {non-destructive treatment}:
> 
> Larry Niven's "Ringworld"
> Speaker-To-Animals -- Dolph Lungren.  Mr. Won, Dolph in orange fur from head
> to toe,  what do you think?
> 
>                                        -Phil "BurnChrome" Rosen
>  
I must confess, I think the only choice for Speaker is Michael Dorn--that 
voice, that physique...  words fail me> 


From cstu  Wed Jun 14 17:32:28 1995
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:32:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Roberta Johnson: Re: Odyssey as Ur-plot
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 11:16:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robert Johnson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Odyssey as Ur-plot

 
>  Anyway, I agree with one true postulate -
> there is only one plot in literature - Odyssey.
> 
> Regards, Boris
> [log in to unmask]
> 
Just to foment discussion, May I paraphrase Jill ker Conway in the 
introduction to Written by Herself:  Autobiographies of American Women:  
The Oddyssey is the classic model for male autobiography, being a coming 
of age journey, a warrioir's tale, and a triumphant return home to a 
faithful woman.  there is no similar archetype for women writing their 
own story-certainly no male Penelope at the spinnning wheel-so women have 
had to invent their biography as it actually happened to them.  Critics 
and readers also have no subtext to fall back on when reading the work.


So if we call The Odyssey (for discussion's sake) the seminal male plot, 
is there an equivalent female plot?  And what is the feminine equivalent 
to seminal, anyway?

Roberta Johnson (not Robert as my address insists)


From cstu  Wed Jun 14 17:37:02 1995
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:37:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Jim: A Mind is a Terrible Thing...
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 22:15:27 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: A Mind is a Terrible Thing...

Okay, now that the quarter is over and I have some time away from school work
(as if it really stopped me), I would like to make a few responses, queries,
and postulations.

I would have to agree with the agruments about trivilization of the SF genre
coming from its popularization.  Unfortunately, publishers are in their line
of work to make money (how dare they!), hence what sees print equals what
will sell, and what will sell is determined by what captures and keeps the
audience's attention.  Now, in an ideal world, the audience would be
enraptured by all of the authors that grace this wonderful forum (some of
which I have not read, I admit).  However, the real world (or at least the
one here in SoCal) seems to be populated by a society with less reading
ability (California 4th graders scored 2nd worst in the nation on achievement
tests), less disposable income (tragedy in and of itself that books have
become a luxary, and television is a necessity), and less patience to read
longer quality works (my mom the elementary school librarian could not keep
The Hobbit/ LOTR/ Narnia/ Prydain series on the shelves a few years ago, and
now she has to dust them).

Hence, SF/fantasy is popular and more prevalent (not the word I really want),
but its content grows increasingly  mundane and simple.  I offer onto the
incinerator every single last book based upon a RPG (Role Playing Game) or
toy, i.e. ALL of the DragonLance, Forgotten Realms, Shadowrun, Robotech
claptrap.

Shifting a little on my soap box, I would like to quote one of Alain
Vaillancourt's latest postings:

But seriously, though Bester could outwrite Heinlein and Asimov easily, 
and showed a great deal of imagination and breadth, he parsed it out here 
and there over stories and novels, without showing the capacity to bring 
a lot together in a great novel.  THE DEMOLISHED MAN and THE STARS MY 
DESTINATION are true SF but they have just a wee bit too much "hip" 
slickness to them,as  a necessary trait to make them appealing to people 
who do not read SF regularly.  In other words, they are a bit lacking in 
wonder sometimes, as if Bester had been afraid to go full throttle as he 
must have been capable of.

This is a truly age old problem related to the trivilization through
popularization that I just mentioned.  Literary giant, Herman Melville wanted
to write great stories that explored the boundries of human experience, i.e.
_Mardi and a Voyage Thither_, but all he could sell were the adventurous
stories detailing his life in the navy, i.e. _Typee_, _Omoo_, and _Redburn_.
 His one attempt at combining both desires, _Moby Dick_, met with relatively
little sucess in its time, but later grew to immense stature.

What does all this mean for SF writers of today?  Maybe in 40 years Gibson
will be gazed upon as a man writing before his time and, therein, catalyzing
a revolution.  Or perhaps, he will be remembered with the same quirky respect
as all those "sceintists" who postulated that the Sun revolves around the
Earth (everyone knows it revolves around me!).

Okay, and now onto something completely different, before the imminently
wonderful, highly intelligent, always wise Moderator/Gods (nestled away in
the brain-numbed half light of the windowless LOC, Monroe building) cut me
off.

My entry for SF's founding fathers/ mothers/ its:

Cyrano de Bergerac, Savinien (1619-1655)  French author and playright.  In
his fantasies _Historie comique des e'tats et empires de la lune (Comical
History of the States and Empires of the Moon, 1656)_ and _Histoire comique
des e'tats et empires du soleil (Comical History of the States and Empires of
the Sun, 1661)_, Cyrano recounts his imaginary visits to the moon and the
sun; his descriptions of their people and institutions are broadly stairical
of the society and politics of his own day...A free thinker and a soldier,
famed for his skill in duels as well as for his inordinately long nose,
Cyrano served as inspiration for the central character in Edmond Rostand's
play _Cyrano de Bergerac_.  Benet's Readers Encyclopedia, pg. 231.

I'm not saying these are better than _Frankenstein_, but they are about 160
years older.

Oh, and one last thing before I go.  Mention has been made for short stories,
novels, and epic poetry.  Are we also considering graphic novels and
otherwise illustrated stories?  One posting mentioned Alan Moore's _The
Watchmen_, and I would have to agree that it was pretty good.  However,
before I throw the weight of my opinion behind a particular work I'll have to
dig through my rarther large collection of Epic Illustrated, Heavy Metal, and
other various collections.

And since I'm out here in left field already, I might as well say that a nod
should be given to Galileo, Nostradamus, and all other ancient thinkers who
may not have been correct all the time, but they had the chutzpah to dream.

Jim 
[log in to unmask]



From cstu  Wed Jun 14 17:40:06 1995
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:40:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Sandra Kisner: Aliens and Linguists
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 08:43:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Sandra Kisner" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Aliens and Linguists

> I second (or is it third?) LeGuin & Phil Rosen's praise of "Darmok"
> (ST:TNG).

     Add me to the list of people who enjoyed this episode.

> Of course, I'd be more than pleased to have my ignorance of other writers'
> attention to this issue remedied by suggestions from other sf-lit
> members...

    Several years ago I did some reading on how language is handled in
science fiction.  I copied an article from _Science Fiction Studies,
Series II_ (ed. RD Mullen and Darko Savin, 1977) by Walter E. Meyers,
"The Future History and Development of the English Language."  He has
also written a book, _Aliens and Linguists_ (U. Georgia Press, 1980)
that is quite interesting, and should point readers to older books
and stories that deal with communicating with aliens.

Sandra Kisner
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 14 13:29:55 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: Serge Berezhnoy <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Apocalyptic fiction
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 21:28:47 +0400


David Hipple <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

 > That's a point - isn't there, somewhere, a categorisation of
 > "apocalyptic" fiction?  I'm really struggling here and the memory
 > is very tenuous indeed, but I think that this term has been used
 > to descibe non-realistic fiction generally (not just
 > end-of-the-world stuff!).  Maybe it's French - apocalyptique?
 > Mean anything to anyone?  Means precious little to me....

Not that my response will be on the point compleatly... No, in Russian sf field 
we have not a special categorisation for apocalyptic fiction. And we here don't 
use term "apocalyptic" to describe non-realistic fiction generally.

But we have a relatively new group of speculative fiction writers call 
themselves "turborealists" -- and one of the points of their writings is not so 
usual idea that the life itself -- life of the human being, human society, 
Universe -- is a permanent Apocalypse. And almost all turborealism fiction use 
apocalyptic motives...

I want to make accent that turborealism can not be described as "apocalyptic 
fiction" only. It is a reach creative idea deals with a sociology, philosophy, 
psychology and a hell of other themes. In the estetic it may remind cyberpunk 
sometimes...

Serge Berezhnoy
St.Petersburg, Russia
[log in to unmask]

 * Origin: TERRA FANTASTICA, St.Petersburg, (812)-310-6007 (2:5030/207.2)




From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 14 14:53:45 1995
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On Thu, 8 Jun 1995, Boris Sidyuk wrote:

> I suppose that if somebody like Spielberg will someday make a movie
> based on Le Guin's LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS, such a movie will earn
> all Oscars (or half :)).
> 
> Regards, Boris
> [log in to unmask]
> 
Just a note...Here in Chicago a local theatre company produced a stage 
version of Left Hand, which sent many patrons to our library to read the 
original.  Unfortunately, I have no feedback indicating their response to 
the novel.

I didn't see the play myself (being dubious) but the reviews were 
excellent. Lawrence Bonner in the Chicago Tribune (Feb. 7 Sec.1 Pg. 16) 
said, "Lifeline Theatre's premiere, meticulously adapted by director 
meryl Friedman, takes us on an absorbing 180 minute journey through this 
complex and corrective society...the intensity often works, as in karen 
Tarjan's wise and charismatic seer Faxe."  The review praises David 
Coronado as Genly Ai, but surprisingly doesn't mention Estraven, or even 
whether Estraven was played by a man or a woman.


From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 14 15:06:15 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Date: 14 Jun 95  15:01 EST
Subject: Re: From [log in to unmask]: The X-files
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id:  <[log in to unmask]>

On June 14, [log in to unmask] asked:
>Who writes the screenplays and are there any actual scientific basis to them?

Series Creator Cris Carter writes most of the stories .

Michael Moncey
"History has the relation to truth that theology has to religion- 
i.e., none to speak of" - Lazarus Long

From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 14 15:39:57 1995
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From: "Tom Remington [UNI ENGLISH DEPT.]" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: From Andy Sawyer: A Heinlein speech
To: [log in to unmask]
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"Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Does anyone know details of a speech Robert A Heinlein gave to the 
> Naval Academy in the 1970s? Is it in print anywhere?

         "The Forrestal Lecture" (1973) was printed in *Analog*
         (January, 1974), and reprinted in *Expanded Universe* (Ace,
         1980).

         Cheers,

         Tom Remington
         ([log in to unmask])


From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 14 15:44:26 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (John Lowrance)
Subject: Heinlein query
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 14:47:40 +0000
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>

Mr. Sawyer:
          The Heinlein speech in question was available on audio-cassette a
few years ago from the American Audio Prose Library, P.O. Box 842, Columbia,
Missouri 65205. As I recall, excerpts from it were published in Analog
around 1971, but I am not aware of any other printed versions. 
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
      John Lowrance -  Head Librarian - Jefferson City High School
      Phone 314-659-3084              Fax 314-659-3246
      Internet e-mail address - [log in to unmask]
      US Mail - 609 Union, Jefferson City, MO 65101

      "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
                                                  - John Lennon
                                                              
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''


From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 14 15:57:19 1995
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 13:56:27 -0600 (MDT)
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Andy Sawyer: A Heinlein speech
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>From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: A Heinlein speech
>Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 17:25:34 +0100 (BST)
>
>Does anyone know details of a speech Robert A Heinlein gave to the 
>Naval Academy in the 1970s? Is it in print anywhere?
>-- 
>Andy Sawyer,
>Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
>Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool
>PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK
>0151-794-2733/2696
>[log in to unmask]
>http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html
>
>"Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight)

        Heinlein's speech to the Naval Academy was published in the January
1974 issue of _Analog_.  The heart of it was his five rules for getting
published, but he followed with a strong plug for patriotism and moral
responsibility.

[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 14 16:05:25 1995
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Yes, there is some basis for some of them.

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place

On Wed, 14 Jun 1995, Colleen Stumbaugh wrote:

> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 16:59:14 -0400
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: The X-files
> 
> Who writes the screenplays and are there any actual scientific basis to them?
> 
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 14 16:06:14 1995
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From [log in to unmask]: Please advise
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There are *lots* of secret government files. And no, they aren't going to 
tell you :0)

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place


From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 14 16:06:27 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Eric A. Johnson: RE: Libraries and SF Collections
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>Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 15:30:18 -0400 (EDT)
>From: "Eric A. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: RE:  Libraries and SF Collections
>
>
>A while back a couple of you asked about how libraries organize SF.  
>Well, the Library of Congress is not a good example because what SF we do 
>acquire is either mixed in with the mainstream literature (this has its 
>upside and its downside) or is put in a box and "added" to the special 
>collections (where access is severely limited).  Anyways, you might want to 
>track down a copy of the following guide to the way things might be done:
>
>A guide to science fiction and fantasy in the Library of Congress 
>classification scheme / Michael Burgess.  2nd ed., rev.  San Bernadino, 
>CA : Borgo Press, 1988.  
>
>If you're looking to organize an SF collection, this might help.  It 
>lists both subject headings from the LCSH and classification numbers from 
>the schedules.  Of course it helps if your library is already 
>LC-cataloging compatible ...
>
>Also, there was a nice review of SF reference books in the October 24, 1994 
>issue of AB BOOKMAN'S WEEKLEY by L.W. Currey (pp. 1648-1657) called 
>"Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror Literature."  This will point you 
>to the essential books that should be in any SF reference collection and 
>can be used for either evaluating your overall SF collection or determining 
>what you should try to acquire (e.g., Michael Burgess' _Reference Guide to
>Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror ; Neil Barron's _Anatomy of Wonder_
>[all editions] ; Neil Barron's _Fantasy Literature_ ; and so on).
>
>And I still owe various people a description of SF at LC ...
>
>
>
>*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
>| Eric A. Johnson                               |     *OPINIONS MINE*     |
>| Senior Exchange Specialist (Baltics & CIS)    |                         |
>| & Recommending Officer for Science Fiction    |  Voice:  (202) 707-9498 |
>| Exchange & Gift Division (COLL/E&G/EES)       |  FAX:    (202) 707-2086 |
>| Library of Congress, LM 632                   |  Email:    [log in to unmask]  |
>| Washington, DC  20540-4240  USA               |                         |
>*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
>
>                "Reality is that which, when you stop 
>                 believing in it, doesn't go away."
>
>                                Philip K. Dick, 1928-1982

        When Brigham Young University (Provo, Utah) elected to switch from
Dewey to LC in the late 70's, we found the PZ-4 designation open and
immediately seized on it as a means of keeping our SF together.  All our
old holdings remain in one place under the Dewey classification.  New
acquistions (since 1978) and reference works appear under the PZ-4
designation.  That keeps our extensive holdings reasonably intact even
though separated into two basic groups on the same floor.  Other librarians
might want to try the same approach.

[log in to unmask]
(801) 378-2456


From eaj  Wed Jun 14 17:00:15 1995
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:00:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Eric A. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Phil "BurnChrome" Rosen: Re: 1989 Hugo - I think
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I have a list of award winners that says Dan Simmons HYPERION won the 
1990 Hugo for best novel.  The 1989 was won by C.J. Cherryh's CYTEEN.  
Anyways ... EAJ



*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| Eric A. Johnson				|     *OPINIONS MINE*     |
| Senior Exchange Specialist (Baltics & CIS)	|			  |
| & Recommending Officer for Science Fiction	|  Voice:  (202) 707-9498 |
| Exchange & Gift Division (COLL/E&G/EES)	|  FAX:    (202) 707-2086 |
| Library of Congress, LM 632			|  Email:    [log in to unmask]  |
| Washington, DC  20540-4240  USA		|			  |
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

		"Reality is that which, when you stop 
		 believing in it, doesn't go away."

				Philip K. Dick, 1928-1982


From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 14 17:12:21 1995
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 14 Jun 1995 17:12:16 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:12:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Phil "BurnChrome" Rosen: Re: 1989 Hugo - I think
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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[log in to unmask] wrote:

> Subject: Re: 1989 Hugo - I Think
> 
> Fiona asked which novel won the 1989 Hugo Award.  As the Hugos, unlike the
> Nebulas {or is it the other way around}, are awarded the year after the
> actual publication date of the honored work {or is it the other way around,
> oops, regular repeating time-slips highly unlikely}, I'd hazard to say it was
> Dan Simmons' _Hyperion_.

That was exactly it.  Thanks very much.

Fiona

From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 14 18:02:12 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Ed McKnight: Re: Arena (fwd)
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Ed McKnight: I think you'll find that Brown's story was the acknowledged
source, but that he himself was -not- the "acknowledged screenwriter".

-- Mike Resnick

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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 18:02:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: From [log in to unmask]: The X-files
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Wed, 14 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> 
> On June 14, [log in to unmask] asked:
> >Who writes the screenplays and are there any actual scientific basis to them?
> 
> Series Creator Cris Carter writes most of the stories .
> 

Yes, and he has said that he saw it more as a series following the black 
side of "Twilight Zone" and "Outer Limits" than as a science fiction 
series.

Something closer to "Night Gallery" or to some of the early works of 
Richard Matheson.  The TV equivalent of singing the blues.  Or what 
french film critics call the "film noir".

Au revoir!

DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask] 

From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 14 18:08:11 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Jim: A Mind is a Terrible Thing...
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There's as much -- probably more -- good, mature science fiction as there
ever was. Problem is, when I broke into the field back in the 1960s, I
think we were publishing maybe 50 books a year. Today we're publishing over
1300. That's a lot of crap to wade through to -find- the good stuff.

-- Mike Resnick

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Subject: Re: Heinlein's speeches
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 23:07:52 +0100 (BST)
From: Andy Butler <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Tom Remington [UNI ENGLISH DEPT.]" at Jun 14, 95 05:59:50 pm
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> 
> "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> > Does anyone know details of a speech Robert A Heinlein gave to the 
> > Naval Academy in the 1970s? Is it in print anywhere?

Whilst we're talking Heinlein, can any give a reference, or cite the 
passage where Heinlein talked about Speculative Fiction?  I believe it 
was in 1941.  (There's a thesis on Heinlein here at Hull, but mostly on 
the late novels.  Maybe I should check through this)


Cheers

Andy Butler

English Department
University of Hull
Hull
UK

[log in to unmask]

"We drift down time, clutching at straws.  But what good's a brick to a 
drowning man?"



From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 14 18:12:10 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
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Does any one know, if he is on-line with us?

From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 14 18:39:16 1995
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 17:57:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Phil "BurnChrome" Rosen: Re: 1989 Hugo - I think
To: [log in to unmask]
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I just checked; as I said, the 1989 Hugo went to C. J. Cherryh's CYTEEN.

The Hugos work on the calender year. The dates of eligibility go from
January 1 through December 31.

The Nebulas work on a fiscal year beginning with the date of publication.
Hence, a story that comes out on March 23 of 1995 will be eligible through
March 22 of 1996, and if it makes the ballot of 1996 stories, it will not
be voted on until 1997.

The Nebulas used to run on the same calender as the Hugos, but a lot of
people with stories that came out in October, November and December felt
they were being treated unfairly. (This does not apply to the Hugos, where
nominations close in April, so everyone has time to read everything; the
Nebulas usually close around January 4.) So we changed the rules...but now
I think it's a little unfair to the very oldest stories: who can remember
a 4,000-worder they read in a magazine more than 2 years ago?

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 14 18:51:34 1995
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 18:05:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Andy Sawyer: A Heinlein speech
To: [log in to unmask]
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The speech was titled "The Pragmatics of Patriotism", and appeared
originally in Dick Geis' Hugo-winning fanzine, SCIENCE FICTION REVIEW,
and is available in book form in Heinlein's EXPANDED UNIVERSE.

-- Mike Resnick

From cstu  Thu Jun 15 06:37:55 1995
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 06:37:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Martin Won :RE: SF in Cine -- A Nominee (Ringworld)
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It seems besides not letting me approve any messages, a few messages fell 
through the system cracks this week.  My apologies to Martin and anyone 
else who had this happen.  Please feel free to send the message to me or 
again to the list.
Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]

 -----------------------

From: martinw@rodan
Date: 12 Jun 95
Subject: RE: SF in Cine -- A Nominee (Ringworld)

Phil "BurnChrome" Rosen wrote:

|And my choice for SF story I'd most like to see given cinematic NDT
|{non-destructive treatment}:
|
|Larry Niven's "Ringworld"
.
.
.
|Speaker-To-Animals -- Dolph Lungren.  Mr. Won, Dolph in orange fur from head
|to toe,  what do you think?

I think I'd rather see him in tar and feathers.  If he could deliver 
in this role, he'd be following in the footsteps of other illustrious players 
whose best parts have been non-human (i.e. Arnie Schwarzeneggar and Daryl 
Hannah).  My recollection, however, is that Speaker-to-Animals has speaking 
parts.  In my mind, that fact renders Dolph incapable of providing any sort of 
satisfactory performance in this role.

However, I'm a believer in never shooting down a solution unless I have an 
alternative.  Hmmm, must be arrogant, prideful, able to bellow and project 
strong sense of loyalty to warrior society--what's Michael Dorn up to these 
days...?

-Martin S. Won
 [log in to unmask]





From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 14 19:05:14 1995
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In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 14 Jun 1995 18:38:55 EDT."
             <[log in to unmask]> 
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From: Espana Nunez <[log in to unmask]>

> Ed McKnight: I think you'll find that Brown's story was the acknowledged
> source, but that he himself was -not- the "acknowledged screenwriter".
> 
> -- Mike Resnick

	Well, I know it's not much of a reference source, but I have some of the 
old ST trading cards lying around and "TV Credit Card #2" has the following 
credits:

	Writers: Gene L. Coon, Frederic L. brown
	Director: Marc Daniels
	Producer: Gene Roddenberry	First Aired: 1/1967

	Was he maybe not credited when the episode first appeared and then this was 
fixed later?

	Espana (who cant believe she just quoted a trading card)
--
Espana N. Sheriff			"Hip-Hop Bishop of Beat! The Cool, 
[log in to unmask]			Gone Daddio of the Deva Dimensions!"
http://www.Catch22.COM/~espana				-Doom Patrol



From cstu  Thu Jun 15 06:46:28 1995
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 06:46:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Espana Nunez: Re: From Ed McKnight: Re: Arena (fwd)
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Subject: Re: From Ed McKnight: Re: Arena (fwd) 
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 16:09:52 -0700
From: Espana Nunez <[log in to unmask]>

> Ed McKnight: I think you'll find that Brown's story was the acknowledged
> source, but that he himself was -not- the "acknowledged screenwriter".
> 
> -- Mike Resnick

	Well, I know it's not much of a reference source, but I have some of the 
old ST trading cards lying around and "TV Credit Card #2" has the following 
credits:

	Writers: Gene L. Coon, Frederic L. brown
	Director: Marc Daniels
	Producer: Gene Roddenberry	First Aired: 1/1967

	Was he maybe not credited when the episode first appeared and then this was 
fixed later?

	Espana (who cant believe she just quoted a trading card)
--
Espana N. Sheriff			"Hip-Hop Bishop of Beat! The Cool, 
[log in to unmask]			Gone Daddio of the Deva Dimensions!"
http://www.Catch22.COM/~espana				-Doom Patrol




From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 14 20:06:48 1995
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 95 20:06 EDT
From: [log in to unmask] (cb52)
Subject: Re: Re: From Andy Sawyer: A Heinlein speech 
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> 

>The speech was titled "The Pragmatics of Patriotism", and appeared
>originally in Dick Geis' Hugo-winning fanzine, SCIENCE FICTION REVIEW,
>and is available in book form in Heinlein's EXPANDED UNIVERSE.
>
>-- Mike Resnick
>

As is the article about speculative fiction that Andy Sawyer inquired about
(at least I'm pretty sure it is). A good bit of Heinlein's short non-fiction
appears in EXPANDED UNIVERSE.




C. Douglas Baker
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
        [log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 14 22:10:21 1995
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From: Arthur Hlavaty <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Eric A. Johnson: RE: Libraries and SF Collections 
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When I was in library school, I was most interested to learn that neither 
Dewey decimal nor Library of Congress distinguishes between "mainstream" 
and "category" fiction.  Could there be a lesson in that?

Arthur D. Hlavaty             [log in to unmask]
Church of the SuperGenius   In Wile E. We Trust


From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 14 22:15:18 1995
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From: Arthur Hlavaty <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Andy Sawyer: A Heinlein speech
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On Wed, 14 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> 
>         Heinlein's speech to the Naval Academy was published in the January
> 1974 issue of _Analog_.  The heart of it was his five rules for getting
> published, but he followed with a strong plug for patriotism and moral
> responsibility.
> 
. . . and getting killed trying to save strangers.

Arthur D. Hlavaty             [log in to unmask]
Church of the SuperGenius   In Wile E. We Trust


From cstu  Thu Jun 15 07:16:45 1995
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From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: From Arthur Hlavaty: Re: From Andy Sawyer: A Heinlein speech
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Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 22:15:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Arthur Hlavaty <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: From Andy Sawyer: A Heinlein speech

On Wed, 14 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> 
>         Heinlein's speech to the Naval Academy was published in the January
> 1974 issue of _Analog_.  The heart of it was his five rules for getting
> published, but he followed with a strong plug for patriotism and moral
> responsibility.
> 
. . . and getting killed trying to save strangers.

Arthur D. Hlavaty             [log in to unmask]
Church of the SuperGenius   In Wile E. We Trust



From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 03:33:35 1995
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Phil "BurnChrome" Rosen: Re: 1989 Hugo - I think
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Well, if you have read Hyperion, the Fall of Hyperion is a must. :-) Just 
as good. I got both in a SFBC edition, pretty cool stuff.

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place


From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 03:38:22 1995
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Roberta Johnson: Re: Odyssey as Ur-plot
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Feminine of seminal is ovulal?

Anyway, good question, but why can't it be the same?

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place


From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 03:42:49 1995
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: rscott@bigcat
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Jim: A Mind is a Terrible Thing...
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Jim, calling anything written about RPGs as rubbish is stupid. It is 
simply not true. Yes, there is a lot of crap. However, there is a lot of 
crap in *all* books, so why point that out? Look at all the pretty 
average ad-infinitum series not based on anything and having no reason to 
be a series... I can point out lots of others, too :-)

What is wrong with slickness, btw?

Look what Julian May has to say about writing, yes, she writes to sell.
Not a lot wrong with that, and she is extremely good.

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place


From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 03:45:18 1995
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: rscott@bigcat
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Jim: A Mind is a Terrible Thing...
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Ok, Jim, for perhaps even more 'seminal' graphic novels :-

The Dark Knight Returns, by Frank Miller.

Definitely as good as The Watchmen.

 

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place


From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 03:49:49 1995
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: rscott@bigcat
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From [log in to unmask]: The X-files
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I believe not, unless he is lurking. People do keep tabs on the X-Files 
newsgroup for him, I think.

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place

On Wed, 14 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Does any one know, if he is on-line with us?
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 05:19:53 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: X-Files - real things? Response.
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 10:06:00 BST
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>Is there such thing as "Secret Government Files", like the TV program, "The
>X-Files".

I think it's assumed that governments do not, as a rule, feel bound to tell 
us everything.  This is why they're interested, and why we are hesitant, 
about things like the Official Secrets Act and the Clipper Chip.  Naturally 
this puts everything that they DO tell us in some degree of doubt.  Some 
people take this further than others.  The real question, though, seems to 
be not whether secret files exist but what might be in them.  This is a bit 
of a problem, since "they" (the Bavarian Illuminati, no doubt) have decided 
not to tell us....


>And what about the so-called Sceret Files from the KGB that discuss
>UFO and alien encounters.

Excellent candidates.  Who knows?


>Does any one have anything to comment about this or is this all Sci-Fi for
>the Tabloids.

There's probably something of a difference between stories about a cover-up 
of the discovery of alien corpses and stories of B29s and London 
double-decker buses on the moon.  The difference probably is that, while 
both are swamp gas, the former relates to SOME form of official activity 
that has been cheerfully misinterpreted.  (Stories about bombers on the 
moon, I am convinced, are published by people who take a delight in the fact 
there are people out there willing to pay for this nonsense.)  Makes for a 
damn good TV series, though.

Pretty unsatisfactory comment, I'm afraid, but it sums up my own attitude to 
the whole thing for whatever that's worth.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 05:27:21 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Secret Government files
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 10:26:42 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Colleen Stumbaugh" at Jun 14, 95 02:26:55 pm
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In the last mail Colleen Stumbaugh said:
> 
> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 20:13:07 -0400
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Please advise.
> 
> Is there such thing as "Secret Government Files", like the TV program, "The
> X-Files". 
> 
> And what about the so-called Sceret Files from the KGB that discuss 
> UFO and alien encounters.

The KGB, like the CIA, have their own share of hoaxes, conspiracy theorists,
secret military projects that no-one is supposed to know about, disinformation,
cover-ups, cock-ups, and general nutters. No real need to import UFOs into
the matter.
> 
. . .  is this all Sci-Fi for
> the Tabloids.

Yes. May it stay there.
> 
> 


-- 
Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool
PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK
0151-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html

"Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight)

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 05:33:30 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: From [log in to unmask]: The X-files
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 10:20:00 BST
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>Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 16:59:14 -0400
>From: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: The X-files
>
>Who writes the screenplays and are there any actual scientific basis to 
them?


I think that Chris Carter (creator and producer) contributes a good few, but 
I may be confusing that with the Joe Straczynski/Babylon 5 situation (JMS 
writes about two-thirds of B5).

Seems to me that the pseudo-science tends to stand up pretty well with the 
exception of a few clunkers.  People were widely unconvinced about the 
malign computer that can switch on and access others' PCs remotely, for 
instance.  Then again even this was done for dramatic purpose and did its 
job OK.  In a way it's a good example to support the idea that this is a TV 
drama series about people and that it happens to set itself in a context of 
weird stuff.  It's said that the weird bits in most of the episodes (not, I 
think, that computer...) are based to some extent on reported events.  That 
doesn't mean that anything in them is true; just that people HAVE reported 
alien corpses at Roswell, UFOs at Nellis, mystical healing and trolls in the 
woods.  No-one I know is tempted to regard The X-Files as a source of 
information - though it's fun to spot the references if you can - just an 
uncommonly nicely crafted TV SF drama series.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 05:43:57 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: From [log in to unmask]: The X-files
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>Does any one know, if he is on-line with us?
>


If you mean Chris Carter (the man from The X-Files), then I believe the 
answer is yes.  Having said that, I'm not sure where.  (Helpful, huh?)  I've 
heard it said that there's an X-Files newsgroup that includes a prolific but 
different Chris Carter, by the way.

Somewhere I think I've got one or more lists of SF lists.  I'll see if I can 
find it/them and mail you direct.

          Dave

From cstu  Thu Jun 15 08:09:26 1995
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From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
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	This is a somewhat tongue-in-cheek view, but as a Federal 
Employee, I am not sure that the government could keep a secret that 
well.  Look at what reporters have uncovered as real coverups (drug testing 
on soldiers, and in the our subway systems), so I am not sure that some 
harder evidence would not have gotten out.  Besides, no one here can keep 
a secret.  Okay, okay, we are a library and more inclined to give out 
info than hide it. :-)
Colleen
_________________________________________________________________________
Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian    [log in to unmask]
Library of Congress                                  (202) 707-4132
Washington, DC 20540-4861                       FAX: (202) 707-4142
These opinions are mine, Mine MINE!       
__________________________________________________________________________



From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 08:10:08 1995
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From: Jimmy <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: From Jim: A Mind is a Terrible Thing...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950615024339.2504H-100000@bigcat>
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On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Richard Scott wrote:

> Ok, Jim, for perhaps even more 'seminal' graphic novels :-
> 
> The Dark Knight Returns, by Frank Miller.
> 
> Definitely as good as The Watchmen.
> 
> AussieVamp
> Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
> Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
> --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place

I feel that Frank Miller is the _best_ man working in comics today. Dark 
Knight is tremendous, as is his Sin City work and Give Me Liberty and 
Martha Washington Goes To War.

_____________________________________________________________________________
         _________
       /     |     \
      |      |      |       Jimmy Coraci
      |  ___ | ___  |       [log in to unmask]
      | /   \ /   \ |    
      / \____v____/ \       The circle is now complete.        
    / |     /V\     | \     When I left you I was but a learner...
   /   \   /|||\   /   \    NOW I AM THE MASTER
  \______\*-----*/______/   
         \_______/          
_____________________________________________________________________________
http://www.georgetown.edu:80/organizations/webclub/pages/coracij/coracij.html




From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 08:58:38 1995
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From: Ruth Ballam <[log in to unmask]>
Organization:  University of Plymouth
To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Thu, 15 Jun 1995 14:05:05 GMT
Subject:       Re: From Jim: A Mind is a Terrible Thing...
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>> Ok, Jim, for perhaps even more 'seminal' graphic novels :-

The Dark Knight Returns, by Frank Miller. >>

I'd add the Sandman books
Ruth Ballam, Computing Service, University of Plymouth
-------------------------------------------------------
  ^ ^    
  * *    "Waking up and getting up has never been easy"
   x      Elastica
-------------------------------------------------------

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 08:59:05 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: From Jim: A Mind is a Terrible Thing...
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Richard Scott:

>Jim, calling anything written about RPGs as rubbish is stupid. It is
>simply not true.

As a general objection to a generalisation I'd go along with this on grounds 
of fairness, although personally I don't recall anything that would support 
the related idea that any of it can actually be good.  I would guess that 
games such as Cthulhu or Ars Magica might stimulate some original, 
thoughtful stuff (particularly considering that that's pretty much the point 
of the latter), but I've yet to see any.  There was a Paranoia novel (well, 
at least one) that was well spoken-of - but then, it would be...

Personally I would go for a less strong version of the original complaint! 
 Everything that's horrible and RPG-related that I've actually seen seems to 
have arisen from the darker corners of pap, thud and blunder D&D and its 
ilk.  Rumour (very occasionally) has it that one or two of the Dragonlance 
books have been written reasonably well, but the cloned ones that I've seen 
don't support that.  Bimbos of the Death Sun was more generous towards RPGs 
than it was towards SF fans (it was an apologia for RPGs, in comparison!), 
but that's a different thing anyway.  I gather that Costikyan's Another Day, 
Another Dungeon has a lot to be said for it, but then again that's 
satirising the whole thing.  And then there are innumerable novels that give 
a strong sense of being no more than slightly tarted-up reports on rather 
shallow RPG scenarios that might have been fun to participate in but which 
don't really have much meat on them in this form (and I maintain that the 
later bits even of Mordant's Need still read like this to me!).

I suppose the BIG counter-example is Chaosium's slew of Glorantha-related 
stuff, but even that may not be a good example in the sense that a lot of 
Chaosium's output for some years was geared to exploring the history and 
society of this world from various directions - some of them literary, some 
of them involving game-based means of access to it, and all of them (at 
least, all that I've seen) stressing quality as a precursor to any 
opportunity for RPG participation.  I suppose I just mean that the 
literature was in a way a part of the RPG from the outset and might be 
difficult to separate out as being "based on it".  (This approach seems to 
have died down a bit recently, as well, but I don't really know.)  Much like 
Barker's Tekumel/EPT stuff, in fact, though obviously much more extensive. 
 All the same, I am very suspicious of anything that seems to take a given 
RPG world as the pure, simple AND SUFFICIENT setting for its story, and if 
the choice were binary I would be on the side trying to discourage anyone 
from doing this, ever!

          Dave

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From: [log in to unmask]
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Subject: Re: A Mind is a Terrible Thing...

While I do agree with Chanticler/Jim that Gresham's Law's operation in the 
SF/Fantasy field (i.e: bad product pushes out good) is A Bad Thing, I 
wouldn't go as far as he does. Though total numbers of SF/Fantasy books 
published are down somewhat from the peak boom years around 1990 (with 
original SF novels particularly thin), there still are hundreds and hundreds 
of new books in the field every year; more than anyone can read. But, really, 
the Law in operation here isn't really Gresham's (since good work is still 
being published), but Sturgeon's. We have to expect that 90 % of SF, like 
everything, will be crap. (I'd personally set the net a little lower and say 
only about 75 % of what's published today is crap.) And both the percentage 
and the specific designation of crap depends on the reader: to some, ANY 
fantasy is an abomination, since only the hardest of SF is good enough, while 
others are more lenient. My point being: there still is lots of good writing 
out there (more than ever before, I'd say), so we should focus on it and do 
our best to ignore poor/derivative/bad writing.

Parenthetically, Chanticler/Jim's comment about reading and literacy being on 
the decline is just plain wrong. Book sales in this country (I haven't seen 
figures for others) have been on the rise every year for more than a decade 
(most obviouly seen in the fact that big bestsellers these days, aka John 
Grisham, sell several times as many copies of a single book as the biggest 
sellers of a decade ago), and are projected to keep increasing. Why do you 
think there are all those new superstores? Tom Doherty of Tor gave a _very_ 
inspiring speech on this topic at the Nebula awards, but I'd seen the numbers 
(in PW's annual wrap-up of the industry) already. Readership of magazines, I 
hear tell, is also up (though not in our field), though newspapers have been 
declining steadily since WW II. But reading books for pleasure is more 
popular now than it ever has been.


Andrew Wheeler

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 09:33:19 1995
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From: "Thomas M. Whitehead" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject:  book covers (from BOOK ARTS)
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I forward without permission for interest of any of the professional
writers on SF_LIT, some of whom have already broached the topic
of cover art/author involvement.


<*>------------<*>------------<*>------------<*>------------<*>
    Thomas M. Whitehead                 Special Collections
    Temple University Libraries      Philadelphia, PA 19122
<*>                                                         <*>
    Voice: 215-204-8230                   Fax: 215-204-5201
             EMail: [log in to unmask]
<*>------------<*>------------<*>------------<*>------------<*>


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 1995 16:56:19 +1000
From: Diane Caney <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: epigraphs and illustrations for book covers

Dear everyone, I am doing my PhD at the University of Tasmania, Australia.
I am looking at the intertextuality of the works of Patrick White and
Sidney Nolan.  I am interested in any articles or books on 'The Theory of
Epigraphs'(in books), and/or the history of  illustrated book covers - i.e.
have writers traditionally (or ever)  been included in decisions as to what
their covers will look like?
Obviously anything about Nolan's book covers would be useful, but it is
more the general history of the physical attributes of the novel in which I
am interested.
Any replies would be greatly appreciated,
Diane Caney.



From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 12:06:12 1995
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I have a huge reference library, but since I don't like TV or Trek, I
have no books devoted to either. However, nothing about screen or TV
scripting is mentioned in the Fred Brown entry in the SF ENCYCLOPEDIA,
and TWENTIETH CENTURY SF WRITERS -- 3RD EDITION, which purports to give
a complete bibliography, mentions only the Alfred Hitchcock Show for
TV credits.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 12:07:06 1995
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From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: From Jim: A Mind is a Terrible Thing...
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I liked DARK KNIGHT ok (although I really don't care too much for 
Miller's drawing unless he's inked by Klaus Janson (i.e. see the 
DAREDEVIL comics during the early and mid-80's).  I still would have to 
rate WATCHMEN in terms of story AND art as mucho superior to DK.


Gary


On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Richard Scott wrote:

> Ok, Jim, for perhaps even more 'seminal' graphic novels :-
> 
> The Dark Knight Returns, by Frank Miller.
> 
> Definitely as good as The Watchmen.
> 
>  
> 
> AussieVamp
> Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
> Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
> --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place
> 
> 
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 12:12:57 1995
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 11:12:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: X-files and government conspiracies
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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The flip side to all the news exposes of government cover-ups is that most 
people have gotten so USED to the feds lying to us that nobody REALLY 
seems to care anymore.


Gary L. Warren
(aka "glw" or "mr. gar" dep. upon my mood of the day!)
:D


On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Colleen Stumbaugh wrote:

> 	This is a somewhat tongue-in-cheek view, but as a Federal 
> Employee, I am not sure that the government could keep a secret that 
> well.  Look at what reporters have uncovered as real coverups (drug testing 
> on soldiers, and in the our subway systems), so I am not sure that some 
> harder evidence would not have gotten out.  Besides, no one here can keep 
> a secret.  Okay, okay, we are a library and more inclined to give out 
> info than hide it. :-)
> Colleen
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian    [log in to unmask]
> Library of Congress                                  (202) 707-4132
> Washington, DC 20540-4861                       FAX: (202) 707-4142
> These opinions are mine, Mine MINE!       
> __________________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> 


From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 12:17:50 1995
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 11:17:31 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tom Remington [UNI ENGLISH DEPT.]" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Heinlein's speeches
To: [log in to unmask]
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Andy Butler wrote:

> Whilst we're talking Heinlein, can any give a reference, or cite the 
> passage where Heinlein talked about Speculative Fiction?  I believe it 
> was in 1941.  (There's a thesis on Heinlein here at Hull, but mostly on 
> the late novels.  Maybe I should check through this)

         According to *The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction* (Revised
         edition), under the entry "Speculative Fiction," "In the
         symposium published as *Of Other Worlds* (coll 1947) ed.
         Lloyd Arthur ESHBACK, Robert A. HEINLEIN proposed the term to
         describe a subset of sf involving extrapolation from known
         science and technology 'to produce a new situation, a new
         framework for human action'."

         Cheers,

         Tom Remington


From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 12:28:02 1995
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On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Richard Scott wrote:

> Feminine of seminal is ovulal?
> 
> Anyway, good question, but why can't it be the same?
> 
> AussieVamp
> Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
> Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
> --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place
> 
> 
Hmmm, ovulal, I like it.  I guess my point was that if language reflects 
society, doesn't this imply  that the first or original idea is always 
masculine?

OK, I went to the shelves in the Reference Room.  According to the 
Nonsexist Word Finder:  A Dictionary of Gender-Free Usage by Rosalie 
Maggio (Oryx Press 1988):  Alternatives are given for "seminal" because 
it is the adjectival form of "semen", than which nothing could be more 
male.  Using the word underscores the notion that only men have important 
"seminal" ideas.

They suggest germinal, prototypal and others.  I'm perfectly happy with 
germinal.

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 12:48:37 1995
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:48:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 1989 Hugo
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Thanks to Mike Resnick and other responders.  I didn't know about the 
situation for the Nebulas; that's pretty interesting.

On Wed, 14 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> I just checked; as I said, the 1989 Hugo went to C. J. Cherryh's CYTEEN.
> 
> The Hugos work on the calender year. The dates of eligibility go from
> January 1 through December 31.
> 
> The Nebulas work on a fiscal year beginning with the date of publication.
> Hence, a story that comes out on March 23 of 1995 will be eligible through
> March 22 of 1996, and if it makes the ballot of 1996 stories, it will not
> be voted on until 1997.
> 
> The Nebulas used to run on the same calender as the Hugos, but a lot of
> people with stories that came out in October, November and December felt
> they were being treated unfairly. (This does not apply to the Hugos, where
> nominations close in April, so everyone has time to read everything; the
> Nebulas usually close around January 4.) So we changed the rules...but now
> I think it's a little unfair to the very oldest stories: who can remember
> a 4,000-worder they read in a magazine more than 2 years ago?
> 
> -- Mike Resnick
> 


Fiona 
From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 13:15:00 1995
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Date:         Thu, 15 Jun 95  13:17:40 EDT
From: Bob Roehm <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Fredric Brown/Arena
To: "SF & Fantasy Discussion Forum" <[log in to unmask]>

If I might weigh in on this, my recollection is that the script had been
written (and possibly filming had already begun) when someone, perhaps Gene
Coon himself, realized the similarity to Brown's story. Rights were hurriedly
bought and "based on a story by Fredric Brown" was added to the writing
credits.

Bob

Robert A. Roehm
Asst., Office of Collection Mgmt., Ekstrom Library
Univ of Louisville, Louisville KY 40292
[log in to unmask] - (502)852-8715

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 13:46:25 1995
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: rscott@bigcat
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Eric A. Johnson: RE: Libraries and SF Collections 
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Yes, books are books, and fiction is fiction. Distinctions are 
silly/dangerous when used to marginalise different types. Useful when you 
want to find things, perhaps, though. However, they also should be 
treated the same, but they aren't. There is no reason a western, a 
thriller, etc., can't be as good as something about boring people sitting 
around talking etc., which can often be gushed over in literary/academic 
circles.

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place

On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Arthur Hlavaty wrote:

> 
> When I was in library school, I was most interested to learn that neither 
> Dewey decimal nor Library of Congress distinguishes between "mainstream" 
> and "category" fiction.  Could there be a lesson in that?
> 
> Arthur D. Hlavaty             [log in to unmask]
> Church of the SuperGenius   In Wile E. We Trust
> 
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 13:51:09 1995
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:50:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: rscott@bigcat
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Terraforming/Marsforming/? Red/Green Mars
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Something interesting in these books is they keep using the word 
terraforming. However, they use areo as a prefix with sciences, and use 
'marsquakes.'

So, why terraforming? They using it in the literal sense of changing the 
earth, as in the dirt, not as in The Earth, the planet?

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place


From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 13:51:22 1995
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 <[log in to unmask]>; Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:50:38 CST
Date: 15 Jun 1995 12:50:38 -0600 (CST)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: I'll bet you can't read this entire subject line
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]"
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	Parden me if I've missed any administrative news regarding the new
subject lines. What is the reason for the placement of the sender's name in the
line. I've seen -- From Jim Re: From Andy Re: From Stan. When I'm in my mail
directory I sometimes can't tell what the dang message is about. I'm literally
swamped with messages everday and rely on the subject lines to weed out the
pulp. Does anybody know the reasoning behind this and whether it is going to
last?

	John Noel

From cstu  Thu Jun 15 21:41:45 1995
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 21:41:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: I'll bet you can't read this entire subject line
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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John,
	The new subject headings are my creation and are temporary.  When 
the problems on Monday with LISTPROC developed, the SF-LIT messages 
continued to come to me for approval, but I was unable to send them out.  
When the problem was fixed on late Wednesday, I tried to send the 
messages out through the normal channels, but nooooo, that would not 
work.  It seems the system had dropped the messages from Monday through 
most of Tuesday out of the que.  Since I still had copies of the messages 
in my mail box, I then forwarded them to the list.  To stress that the 
messages were not really from me, I put the name of the really poster in 
the subject heading.  Unfortunately, I guess I just confused people more. 
	When I forward a message from another person (it happens 
occasionly), I have put the name of the sender in the subject line.  Can 
someone suggest another method for me to alert you to these messages?  I 
do not want to take credit for others posts.
Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]


On Thu, 15 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> 	Parden me if I've missed any administrative news regarding the new
> subject lines. What is the reason for the placement of the sender's name in the
> line. I've seen -- From Jim Re: From Andy Re: From Stan. When I'm in my mail
> directory I sometimes can't tell what the dang message is about. I'm literally
> swamped with messages everday and rely on the subject lines to weed out the
> pulp. Does anybody know the reasoning behind this and whether it is going to
> last?
> 
> 	John Noel
> 

From cstu  Thu Jun 15 21:44:14 1995
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 21:44:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: On-Line SF&F Lit.
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Robert,
	In LC MARVEL, the Library of Congress's gopher, there is a burrow 
for What IF..., a employee science fiction and fantasy forum.  In that 
burrow is several lists of science fiction and fantasy usenet groups 
(those available to Library staff) and the Jay Badenhoop list of 
listservs.  To contact Jay about his list of science fiction listservs, 
you can send a message to [log in to unmask]  The URL for the 
burrow on MARVEL is 
gopher://marvel.loc.gov:2070/00/employee/clubs/scific.  
Hope this is of some help.  
Colleen
_________________________________________________________________________
Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian    [log in to unmask]
Library of Congress                                  (202) 707-4132
Washington, DC 20540-4861                       FAX: (202) 707-4142
These opinions are mine, Mine MINE!       
__________________________________________________________________________



On Thu, 15 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Greetings all,
> I am trying to put together an Internet SF&F Literature guide.  This would
> include Web pages, E-Zines, Newsgroups such as this, etc...  I would
> appreciate input from anyone who might subscribe, or browsed such places
> on the net.  It must be SF&F driven, if not excusively, then at least in
> majority.  When I have a suitable list, which means I have to confirm the
> existence, I will submit this to the SF&F Writer's Workshop, of which I am
> member.  Thanks in advance.
> 
> 
>      Later,
> 
> Robert D. Bair
> IBM Charlotte     RDBAIR at CLTVM1
> CSP Test Engineering Support
> [log in to unmask]
> AR: WB3AHC, 1st Class FCC: P1-3-17298, Tripoli: #2253, NAR: #60163
> 




From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 13:52:33 1995
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:52:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: rscott@bigcat
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: X-files and government conspiracies
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Well, there are different levels of conspiracy, too. The higher up you 
get, the less likely you are to find stuff up/prove things. Too high and 
they kill you, I guess. :-)

However, there is lots of evidence/so-called evidence out there, which 
perhaps is part of the 'we found some things out' errors/leaks process?

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place


From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 13:54:00 1995
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 12:53:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: rscott@bigcat
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Jim: A Mind is a Terrible Thing...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.950615080612.23387B-100000@gusun>
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Probably close to being true. Have read that he wants to get his hands on 
Superman one day, which would be really cool ;-)

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place

On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Jimmy wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Richard Scott wrote:
> 
> > Ok, Jim, for perhaps even more 'seminal' graphic novels :-
> > 
> > The Dark Knight Returns, by Frank Miller.
> > 
> > Definitely as good as The Watchmen.
> > 
> > AussieVamp
> > Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
> > Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
> > --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place
> 
> I feel that Frank Miller is the _best_ man working in comics today. Dark 
> Knight is tremendous, as is his Sin City work and Give Me Liberty and 
> Martha Washington Goes To War.
> 
> _____________________________________________________________________________
>          _________
>        /     |     \
>       |      |      |       Jimmy Coraci
>       |  ___ | ___  |       [log in to unmask]
>       | /   \ /   \ |    
>       / \____v____/ \       The circle is now complete.        
>     / |     /V\     | \     When I left you I was but a learner...
>    /   \   /|||\   /   \    NOW I AM THE MASTER
>   \______\*-----*/______/   
>          \_______/          
> _____________________________________________________________________________
> http://www.georgetown.edu:80/organizations/webclub/pages/coracij/coracij.html
> 
> 
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 13:59:20 1995
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: rscott@bigcat
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Jim: A Mind is a Terrible Thing...
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Yep, but they were later. Gaiman *is* very good, though.

>From memory, I think the first graphic novel was _Camelot 3000_ ? Also 
well worth reading, too.

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place

On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Ruth Ballam wrote:

> >> Ok, Jim, for perhaps even more 'seminal' graphic novels :-
> 
> The Dark Knight Returns, by Frank Miller. >>
> 
> I'd add the Sandman books
> Ruth Ballam, Computing Service, University of Plymouth
> -------------------------------------------------------
>   ^ ^    
>   * *    "Waking up and getting up has never been easy"
>    x      Elastica
> -------------------------------------------------------
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 14:13:11 1995
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: rscott@bigcat
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From Jim: A Mind is a Terrible Thing...
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Try some of the White Wolf books (who are even doing Moorcock stuff now) 
they are better than average, certainly. One world setting is no more 
valid than another. I read the first couple of Shadowrun books, and they 
were pretty bad.

Then you can try Joel Rosenberg for some other fun stories. And, of 
course, Niven's Dream Park. :-)

It is also silly to say a book should never be written about a particular 
background for X reasons.

i.e. a lot of gaming world backgrounds are a lot mroe coherent, detailed, 
well thought out, than random novel 'Y', so they are a great place to start.

However, I'd probably have to agree with the DnD bit, to a certain degree.

However, I have had people report that some of them *are* good, i.e. 
Ravenloft, perhaps?

 AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place


From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 14:20:09 1995
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 14:17:10 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Oddessy?

So if we call The Odyssey (for discussion's sake) the seminal male plot, 
is there an equivalent female plot?  And what is the feminine equivalent 
to seminal, anyway?

Roberta Johnson (not Robert as my address insists)
***********************
End Quote

I have often heard the letter being used as the ideal female form of writing.
But, then again, the our modern novel, which has developed from Romantic and
Victorian era popularity, was a distinctly female form.
_The Oddessy_ (read: Greek mythology) is rumoured to have been written by a
woman (how valid this is, I don't know), but it's not a *novel* it's a long
poem that has been traslated into a prose-like English.
History aside, my personal opinion resides with Woolf and her quest for the
expression of a true reality, and the desire to find a 'female voice (read:
women authors that women could read, relate to, and be inspired by).
But, that means that a person must agree with the idea that a woman's reality
is different from a man's (I dare say, some would say yea, and others nea, to
this idea) - and I think this is where the true difference comes in.
I have been trying to more clearly express my own definition of the
differences between male and femal authors, but can't come up with a *nice*
way of saying it (grrrrr)!
I will say that women do express themselves in the form of the journey
w/adventures, and they've been doing so for quite a while. So, in the
strictest sense, _The Oddessey_ does apply. But, the manner in which a women
will express her journey, what that journey consists of, and what is
important on that journey can, and will, vary drastically from the male
version of such an adventure.
A SF comparison? Well, Ursula Le Guin has been brought up several times in
the cannon fodder discussion - her _Left Hand of Darkness_ is distinctly
 social in it's focus with strong sexual/gender statements and mind-benders
(read: forces you to imagine the 'unimaginable'). Compare her to Asimov,
Dick, Bradbury, Pohl, or Burgess - none of them examine the social aspect as
deeply or as personally (read: making the reader feel the personal impact of
the situation) as Le Guin, and a large part of this is that letter-writting
style that Le Guin uses (much like the effectiveness of M. Shelley's letter
writing style in _Frankenstein_).
>From what I've heard about _Mother Tongue_ (a book I have yet to find a copy
of) I believe it expresses the difference best. Our differences in experience
have resulted in a difference in language - but in a very subtle way.
Perhaps someone else could add a more specific angle to this.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Adora Pozolinski
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 15:40:47 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Comic SF
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 95 12:31:26 PDT
Message-Id: <9506151931.1A70DC@martinw>
X-Mailer: SelectMAIL 1.2

Jimmy Coraci ([log in to unmask]) wrote:

|I feel that Frank Miller is the _best_ man working in comics today. Dark 
|Knight is tremendous, as is his Sin City work and Give Me Liberty and 
|Martha Washington Goes To War.

I'm not sure how we got on this thread (perhaps it was when someone mentioned 
Watchmen as canon fodder?), but if anyone's interested, here're my two pesos:

Frank Miller's Dark Knight was certainly a defining moment in comic (and 
perhaps literary) history.  Frank's depiction of Batman was probably the 
finest character portrayal any comic character had received until then.  That, 
combined with fine storytelling technique, innovative paneling, masterful use 
of characters, and a successful effort at incorporating many of the 
themes/anxieties of the day makes Dark Knight, in my mind, worthy of mention 
in any discussion of today's popular culture.

Perhaps I'm unfairly comparing his later works to Dark Knight, but I simply 
don't feel that Frank has delivered as much with them.  Although I feel that 
Elektra:  Assassin was a worthy successor to Dark Knight (to which I think 
much is owed to the artist), I find much of his later work (Give Me Liberty, 
Daredevil, Sin City, etc.) terribly heavy-handed and almost clumsy in their 
delivery of ideas.  There's no doubt that there's innovation in his work (i.e. 
the boldness of Sin City's art, the social vision of Give Me Liberty/Martha 
Washington, or the absurdly detailed violence of Hard Boiled), but I'm rapidly 
tiring of his stand-on-the-soapbox style and I'm beginning to wonder if he has 
anything better than more Sin City stories inside him.

That said about Frank, I have to mention both Alan Moore (of Watchmen fame).  
If Dark Knight was the first stellar character treatment in comics, I think 
Watchmen might be its first epic; whereas Miller delights in the overt 
display, Moore revels in layers of complexity.  His Watchmen, Miracleman, and 
Swamp Thing works have added an incredible depth to the treatment of 
superheroes in comics in terms of story and character.  I'll also put in a 
plug for his From Hell series, his well-researched treatment of Jack the 
Ripper.

I realize that my two pesos have turned into municipal bonds.  It's not that I 
feel strongly about any of this stuff, you know... ;)  OK, one last, brief 
mention:  Neil Gaiman.  I think enough people on this list know and value him 
enough without my having to talk about him.  

I'll close by saying that there are several quality (and literary) people 
writing for comics these days.  If anyone is laboring under the impression 
that comics are a literary wasteland (as some once thought about SF), I 
encourage them to check out one or more of these writers.

-Martin S. Won
 [log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 19:12:23 1995
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 19:12:23 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From [log in to unmask]: The X-files

Thank you,  I would apreciate any mailing list referrals.

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 19:24:20 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From [log in to unmask]: The X-files 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 15 Jun 1995 08:09:00 EDT."
             <[log in to unmask]> 
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From: Espana Nunez <[log in to unmask]>

> 
> >Does any one know, if he is on-line with us?
> >
> 
> 
> If you mean Chris Carter (the man from The X-Files), then I believe the 
> answer is yes.  Having said that, I'm not sure where.  (Helpful, huh?)  I've 
> heard it said that there's an X-Files newsgroup that includes a prolific but 
> different Chris Carter, by the way.
> 
>           Dave

	I just asked on one of my usual haunts, #xf and they said that CC is on
	Delphi, apparently he doesnt post to atx(or at least not often) and is 
	on rarely and at odd hours. If you want more info I can ask on the 		       
x-philes mailing list.



--
Espana N. Sheriff			"Hip-Hop Bishop of Beat! The Cool, 
[log in to unmask]			Gone Daddio of the Deva Dimensions!"
http://www.Catch22.COM/~espana				-Doom Patrol



From cstu  Fri Jun 16 06:56:54 1995
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 06:56:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: From [log in to unmask]: The X-files (fwd)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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LISTPROC problems again.  This is a forward.  

Subject: Re: From [log in to unmask]: The X-files 
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 16:28:58 -0700
From: Espana Nunez <[log in to unmask]>

> 
> >Does any one know, if he is on-line with us?
> >
> 
> 
> If you mean Chris Carter (the man from The X-Files), then I believe the 
> answer is yes.  Having said that, I'm not sure where.  (Helpful, huh?)  I've 
> heard it said that there's an X-Files newsgroup that includes a prolific but 
> different Chris Carter, by the way.
> 
>           Dave

	I just asked on one of my usual haunts, #xf and they said that CC is on
	Delphi, apparently he doesnt post to atx(or at least not often) and is 
	on rarely and at odd hours. If you want more info I can ask on the 		       
x-philes mailing list.



--
Espana N. Sheriff			"Hip-Hop Bishop of Beat! The Cool, 
[log in to unmask]			Gone Daddio of the Deva Dimensions!"
http://www.Catch22.COM/~espana				-Doom Patrol




From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 21:22:37 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: On-Line SF&F Lit. 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 15 Jun 1995 21:10:32 EDT."
             <[log in to unmask]> 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 18:27:22 -0700
From: Espana Nunez <[log in to unmask]>

> Greetings all,
> I am trying to put together an Internet SF&F Literature guide.  This would
> include Web pages, E-Zines, Newsgroups such as this, etc...  I would
> appreciate input from anyone who might subscribe, or browsed such places
> on the net.  It must be SF&F driven, if not excusively, then at least in
> majority.  When I have a suitable list, which means I have to confirm the
> existence, I will submit this to the SF&F Writer's Workshop, of which I am
> member.  Thanks in advance.
> 


	My pages have a few links. Try Links of Interest to fandom among them.
	Anything that I or laurie mann (links of interest) dont have should be at 
Yahoo.


--
Espana N. Sheriff			"Hip-Hop Bishop of Beat! The Cool, 
[log in to unmask]			Gone Daddio of the Deva Dimensions!"
http://www.Catch22.COM/~espana				-Doom Patrol



From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 21:23:33 1995
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 21:23:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Arthur Hlavaty <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fredric Brown/Arena
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Bob Roehm wrote:

> If I might weigh in on this, my recollection is that the script had been
> written (and possibly filming had already begun) when someone, perhaps Gene
> Coon himself, realized the similarity to Brown's story. Rights were hurriedly
> bought and "based on a story by Fredric Brown" was added to the writing
> credits.
> 
Harlan Ellison tells this story (without names) in one of his books.

Arthur D. Hlavaty             [log in to unmask]
Church of the SuperGenius   In Wile E. We Trust


From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 21:43:04 1995
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 21:42:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jimmy <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Terraforming/Marsforming/? Red/Green Mars
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950615124842.18014F-100000@bigcat>
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On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Richard Scott wrote:
> Something interesting in these books is they keep using the word 
> terraforming. However, they use areo as a prefix with sciences, and use 
> 'marsquakes.'
> 
> So, why terraforming? They using it in the literal sense of changing the 
> earth, as in the dirt, not as in The Earth, the planet?
> 
> AussieVamp
> Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
> Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
> --- Goanna, Spirit Of Place

Richard,
	The two uses that come to mind are in James Camneron's Aliens and 
Dan Simmon's Hyperion novels. Where else?
- Jimmy

_____________________________________________________________________________
         _________
       /     |     \
      |      |      |       Jimmy Coraci
      |  ___ | ___  |       [log in to unmask]
      | /   \ /   \ |    
      / \____v____/ \       The circle is now complete.        
    / |     /V\     | \     When I left you I was but a learner...
   /   \   /|||\   /   \    NOW I AM THE MASTER
  \______\*-----*/______/   
         \_______/          
_____________________________________________________________________________
http://www.georgetown.edu:80/organizations/webclub/pages/coracij/coracij.html



From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 15 22:31:14 1995
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Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 22:31:14 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: X-Files, Conspiracies, etc.

Time to add my two cents worth to the background chatter over so-called
"X-Files".

X-Files, the TV show:
Never miss an episode.  Worth the price of a basic model VCR.  That one with
the Circus of the Strange was a real hum-dinger.  The wife thinks Mulder is
cute.  I think Sculley's smarts and professionalism more than makes up for
her not-quite-super-model looks.  Can't wait for next season.

X-Files, the Government Cover-Up:
I simply fall in behind the view of Arthur C. Clarke.  To paraphrase, he has
said that, "If  the government really has evidence of alien visits, such a
cover-up could not last more that 48 hours.  Hence, there can be no
conspiracy, unless of course I am part of the conspiracy."  The old guy can
still bring it, eh?


                             -Phil "BurnChrome" Rosen 

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 16 07:05:20 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: "Non-sexist language" - pointless wild goose chase.
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 12:03:00 BST
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Encoding: 42 TEXT
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>Hmmm, ovulal, I like it.  I guess my point was that if language reflects
>society, doesn't this imply  that the first or original idea is always
>masculine?

No, it doesn't.


>OK, I went to the shelves in the Reference Room.  According to the
>Nonsexist Word Finder:  A Dictionary of Gender-Free Usage by Rosalie
>Maggio (Oryx Press 1988):  Alternatives are given for "seminal" because
>it is the adjectival form of "semen", than which nothing could be more
>male.  Using the word underscores the notion that only men have important
>"seminal" ideas.

Of course this is all bollocks - which obviously underscores the notion that 
that only men can have truly stupid ideas, yes?  Well, apparently not...  I 
hope that it was a joke, but it's dangerous and so it bothers me anyway.

Depending on how I feel I sometimes like to point out that "seminal" means 
"seedlike" and derives directly from the Latin.  Its use to describe a 
radical (spot the similarity, anyone?) new idea can be elegant and poetic. 
 Its primary quality in these cases is that can even be pertinent - as 
indeed could "germinal" if only it was in flaming common use, as "seminal" 
or "radical" is...  It's not the word's fault if some crazed people with 
nothing better to do think that its most important feature is that it's also 
reminiscent of "semen" and a valid spelling of its adjectival form. 
 Apparently there are those who think that that makes it the same word, and 
a subset who even think that one word or both can somehow be infused with 
evil prejudice as a result of this and related linguistic history.  I'm sure 
Rosalie Maggio really has a great deal to contribute in some walk of life. 
 I hope the prescriptive bigot gets on with it, stays away from me and stops 
ignorantly trying to spread damaging ideas among the gullible.  This is 
probably the kind of embarrassing fool who thinks that "herstory" is a 
remarkably good, clever and useful linguistic invention.

The whole area of concern is unbelievably short-sighted, and quaint, and 
hysterical.

Still hoping it was a joke really...

          Dave

From cstu  Fri Jun 16 07:23:19 1995
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 07:23:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: DEATH IN SF FAMILY (fwd)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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A sad day for all science fiction fans.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 16 Jun 1995 07:20:07 EST
From: CHRISTINE T CALLAHAN <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: DEATH IN SF FAMILY

------------------------------------
AUTHOR: CHRISTINE T CALLAHAN        
------------------------------------
Washington Post, Fri. morning: Roger Zelazny died  June  16th  of 
complications from cancer.                                        



From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 16 08:51:28 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Date: 16 Jun 95  08:47 EST
Subject: Re[2]: X-Files, Conspiracies, etc.
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id:  <[log in to unmask]>


On June 16 -Phil "BurnChrome" Rosen wrote:

>I think Sculley's smarts and professionalism more than makes up for
>her not-quite-super-model looks.

Actually, IMHO, I find Scully to be one of the most attractive actresses on
TV today.  Part of that attractiveness is her smarts and professionalism of 
course, but she is very good looking too.  She would make one hell of a work 
partner, too.  I would much rather have the beauty of Scully than any of
those "super-model looks that are more unrealistic than anything.

Michael Moncey

"History has the relation to truth that theology has to religion- 
i.e., none to speak of" - Lazarus Long
From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 16 08:54:00 1995
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          Fri, 16 Jun 1995 13:53:46 +0100
From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "Non-sexist language" - pointless wild goose chase.
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 13:53:43 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" at Jun 16, 95 07:21:34 am
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In the last mail D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple said:
> 
> 
  This is 
> probably the kind of embarrassing fool who thinks that "herstory" is a 
> remarkably good, clever and useful linguistic invention.
> 
> 
>           Dave
> 
Actually, I kind of like "herstory" - as a pun which makes a 
particular point, rather than as an alternative word which we MUST 
use. You're right about "seminal" deriving from "seed" - though
that raises a fascinating point about whether we are right to
use the term "semen" at all, because surely the human seed is the 
ovum? (Or do we only use the term seed for the fertilised object 
anyway)?

-- 
Andy Sawyer, (Who is not a botanist and may be confused)
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool
PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK
0151-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html

"Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight)

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 16 08:54:00 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "Non-sexist language" - pointless wild goose chase.
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 13:53:43 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" at Jun 16, 95 07:21:34 am
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In the last mail D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple said:
> 
> 
  This is 
> probably the kind of embarrassing fool who thinks that "herstory" is a 
> remarkably good, clever and useful linguistic invention.
> 
> 
>           Dave
> 
Actually, I kind of like "herstory" - as a pun which makes a 
particular point, rather than as an alternative word which we MUST 
use. You're right about "seminal" deriving from "seed" - though
that raises a fascinating point about whether we are right to
use the term "semen" at all, because surely the human seed is the 
ovum? (Or do we only use the term seed for the fertilised object 
anyway)?

-- 
Andy Sawyer, (Who is not a botanist and may be confused)
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool
PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK
0151-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html

"Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight)


From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 16 10:02:56 1995
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Date: 	Fri, 16 Jun 1995 10:30:09 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re[2]: On-Line SF&F Lit. 

     http://www.etext.org/
     archives e-zines by name and category, such as SF.  It also has a link 
     to John Labovitz's (sp?) e-zine list, which describes additional 
     titles.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: On-Line SF&F Lit. 
Author:  [log in to unmask] at nylanr01
Date:    6/16/95 7:06 AM


> Greetings all,
> I am trying to put together an Internet SF&F Literature guide.  This would 
> include Web pages, E-Zines, Newsgroups such as this, etc...  I would
> appreciate input from anyone who might subscribe, or browsed such places 
> on the net.  It must be SF&F driven, if not excusively, then at least in 
> majority.  When I have a suitable list, which means I have to confirm the
> existence, I will submit this to the SF&F Writer's Workshop, of which I am 
> member.  Thanks in advance.
> 
     
     
 My pages have a few links. Try Links of Interest to fandom among them. 
 Anything that I or laurie mann (links of interest) dont have should be at 
Yahoo.
     
     
--
Espana N. Sheriff   "Hip-Hop Bishop of Beat! The Cool, 
[log in to unmask]   Gone Daddio of the Deva Dimensions!" 
http://www.Catch22.COM/~espana    -Doom Patrol
     
     


From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 16 10:07:21 1995
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From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]>
To: "sf-lit%loc.gov" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: DEATH IN SF FAMILY (fwd)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 15:07:00 UTC
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 ->
 -> ------------------------------------
 -> AUTHOR: CHRISTINE T CALLAHAN
 -> ------------------------------------
 -> Washington Post, Fri. morning: Roger Zelazny died  June  16th  of
 -> complications from cancer.
 ->
A sad day indeed.
Wierd too.  I was listening to Hawkwind/lords' Damnation Alley on the way to 
work this morning.

markw - who doesn't believe in synchronicity

From cstu  Fri Jun 16 12:35:36 1995
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 12:35:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: DEATH IN SF FAMILY (fwd)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]>
To: "sf-lit%loc.gov" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: DEATH IN SF FAMILY (fwd)


 ->
 -> ------------------------------------
 -> AUTHOR: CHRISTINE T CALLAHAN
 -> ------------------------------------
 -> Washington Post, Fri. morning: Roger Zelazny died  June  16th  of
 -> complications from cancer.
 ->
A sad day indeed.
Wierd too.  I was listening to Hawkwind/lords' Damnation Alley on the way to 
work this morning.

markw - who doesn't believe in synchronicity


From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 16 11:17:21 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: Serge Berezhnoy <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Heinlein's speech
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 19:15:36 +0400


Mr A.P. Sawyer wrote:

 > Does anyone know details of a speech Robert A Heinlein gave to
 > the Naval Academy in the 1970s? Is it in print anywhere?

If you talk about the speach on "Five Writer's Rules for Writing and 
Publishing", then you'll have no problems with it: learn Russian
and read... :) The speach was published in translation here.
And it seems to me it was published in _Analog_ in 1973... Maybe,
I'm wrong...

Good SF!

Serge V. Berezhnoy
St.Petersburg, Russia
[log in to unmask]
... Welcome Here! (Hangman's oldest joke)
 * Origin: Camelot-89. Voice call (812)-310-6007 (2:5030/207.2)




From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 16 12:27:17 1995
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 12:27:17 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Fwd: Please advise

Putting aside the scarasm that this response elicits, the X-files is one of
the best science fiction mediums ever written.

The Truth is Out There!

I'll move on, Thank you.
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	[log in to unmask] (Becky Smith)
To:	[log in to unmask]
Date: 95-06-15 19:23:48 EDT


On the SF-LIT listserv, you asked:

> Is there such thing as "Secret Government Files", like the TV program, "The
> X-Files". 

Not according to the United States Government.
 
> And what about the so-called Sceret Files from the KGB that discuss 
> UFO and alien encounters.

According to "Encounters" and other tabloid television shows, they exist -
according to the KGB, they don't.
 
> Does any one have anything to comment about this or is this all Sci-Fi for
> the Tabloids.
 
What exactly does this have to do with Science Fiction Literature? 
Asimov, Bester, Silverberg - *written* SF - is what is usually discussed
in this group - Perhaps you want the X-Files discussion group, 
alt.tv.x-files ?
 


From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 16 12:47:14 1995
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 12:47:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Austin Dridge <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: DEATH IN SF FAMILY (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Fri, 16 Jun 1995, Colleen Stumbaugh wrote:

> A sad day for all science fiction fans.
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: 16 Jun 1995 07:20:07 EST
> From: CHRISTINE T CALLAHAN <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: DEATH IN SF FAMILY
> 
> ------------------------------------
> AUTHOR: CHRISTINE T CALLAHAN        
> ------------------------------------
> Washington Post, Fri. morning: Roger Zelazny died  June  16th  of 
> complications from cancer.                                        
> 
> 
> 
Here are some additional details. Zelazny died last night of from liver 
malfunction which was the result of colin cancer. He apparently did not 
tell anyone that he had cancer except for a few close friends and family.
The condition had been in remission until recently. 
                                       Austin
                                    [log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 16 12:57:40 1995
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 11:59:25 -0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (George Nicholas)
Subject: X- files and government conspiricies

        You know, I dont for a moment believe that things like the Roswell
Alien are real. And it's true, as Colleen says, that the U. S. government
probably couldn't keep a secret of that magnitude. Look at the splendid job
the executive branch once did of hiding its participation in a second-class
burglary at the Watergate.

        But just for a little paranoid fun, look at it this way. Imagine
that the government *hasn't* kept the secret of the Roswell Alien very
well. After all, here we are discussing it. Perhaps "they" are counting on
the fact that this secret falls into a sort of self-limiting category. It's
so unbelievable that, even if it gets out, few people will take it
seriously. Thus security is preserved by the very outrageousness of the
subject. The Roswell Alien is hidden in plain sight, so to speak.

George E. Nicholas                      [log in to unmask]
English Department                      (913)367-5340 xt. 2572
Benedictine College
Atchison KS 66002



From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 16 14:23:10 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Terraforming

Someone (my mail system is steam-powered and doesn't allow editing of other's 
messages for convenient quotation) asked about the word terraforming, and, 
from the subject line, I think it was in reference to Stan Robinson's "Mars" 
books.

The 'terra' in terraforming doesn't refer to planet earth as the medium to be 
formed. What I mean is: it's not terraforming as in forming the earth, it's 
terraforming as in forming another planet to be _like_ the earth. General 
planetary changes are called planoforming. Terraforming is a specific type of 
planoforming in which one is trying to create an Earth-like atmosphere (etc.) 
where one did not exist before. BTW, to impress your friends, the opposite of 
terraforming is xenoforming, which is the alteration of the earth to fit the 
needs of an alien species. The best example of it I've found is in David 
Gerrold's "The War With the Chtorr" series (which has some nice stuff buried 
in a post-Heinlein kill-the-invading-bugs plotline).

But Martian geology is still rightly called areology, since 'geo' refers 
specifically to the structures of earth. As an aside, does anyone know a word 
for extra-planetary geology in general?


Andy Wheeler

From cstu  Fri Jun 16 14:51:16 1995
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 14:51:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Terraforming
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On Fri, 16 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:
--Snip__
> needs of an alien species. The best example of it I've found is in David 
> Gerrold's "The War With the Chtorr" series (which has some nice stuff buried 
> in a post-Heinlein kill-the-invading-bugs plotline).

I love it!  As a librarian, I tend to catagorize books, and now I have a 
new genre area.  There is fantasy (high or low) and science fiction 
(hard, soft, and post-Heinlien-kill-the-invading-bugs).  Actually, I 
think this has come up before, but is there a list of the types of 
fantasy/horror/science fiction?  This would be very useful to 
bibiliographies and us poor librarians.  I am thinking along the lines of 
a thesarus; if it does not exist, is anyone interested in helping me 
create one? 

Colleen
_________________________________________________________________________
Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian    [log in to unmask]
Library of Congress                                  (202) 707-4132
Washington, DC 20540-4861                       FAX: (202) 707-4142
These opinions are mine, Mine MINE!       
__________________________________________________________________________



From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 16 15:55:42 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Ed McKnight)
Subject: Re: Terraforming

Richard Scott asked why the word "terraforming" was used in Kim Stanley
Robinson's Red/Green Mars while the prefix "areo" was used with sciences and
"marsquakes" was used instead of "earthquakes."  My best guess is that the
"terra" in "terraforming" derives from the object being simulated rather
than the object upon which the work is performed.  In other words,
"terraforming" is the process of transforming a planet into a "terrestrial"
one.  By this logic you could "terraform" any suitable planet except earth
itself!

Ed McKnight -- [log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 16 17:25:35 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 95 20:29:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Roger Zelazny
X-Genie-Id: 4254059
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

I've been meaning to post some thoughts about how well the Cleveland Indians
are doing this season, but today I'm not in the mood.  Instead, I'll upload
the following, which I was asked to write for this weekend's New Orleans
Fantasy and Science Fiction Festival.
 
One of the things I don't like about getting older is saying a final goodbye
to so many of my friends.  Roger Zelazny was more than a friend, not only to
me but to many of my colleagues and others who read and enjoyed his writing
over the years.  I first met Roger early in my career.  I had admired his
work ever since I read LORD OF LIGHT, CREATURES OF LIGHT AND DARKNESS, and
ISLE OF THE DEAD.  He was a master of short fiction, too, winning
nominations and awards for "And Call Me Conrad" and "A Rose for
Ecclesiastes", among others.  He was one of the few writers who could move
easily between science fiction and fantasy, and create superbly in either
area.  He was a consummate prose stylist, and he never failed to be
entertaining at the same time that he wrote on deeper levels.
 
Roger was always generous with his time, always willing to give the benefit
of his experience to new writers.  He was a charming and gracious man who
could be a model for other professionals in how to behave toward fans.  He
was quiet, but now and then he could startle you with a devastating sense of
humor.  It is almost a cliche to say of someone who's passed on that they
can't be replaced, but this is certainly true in the case of Roger Zelazny.
I can't think of anyone at all who could match his particular voice, his
unique imagination.
 
Roger was, I believe, NOSFFF's third Guest of Honor, when the convention was
back at the old Bayou Plaza.  I recall Debbie and I sharing a wonderful
dinner with him at Antoine's.  I remember other Zelazny stories and
anecdotes, but I can't help feeling that they are too few.  Just as the
number of novels and stories Roger left with us are too few.
 
Michael Kube-McDowell wrote a brief obituary that was posted on CompuServe.
He ended the message with the words "Ad Astra," which were ironic in a way,
as Roger was to be Guest of Honor at Ad Astra in Toronto this very weekend.
How immediately he has shown himself to be irreplaceable.
 
Roger was from Euclid, Ohio, walking distance from the house I grew up in.
I didn't know him then, of course, but we laughed often about our common
Cleveland background.  Roger told me a funny story once about visiting
Harlan Ellison's old neighborhood, and talking to the people who remembered
Harlan as a boy.  I think the delight Roger took in telling that tale is how
I'll remember him.  I miss him already.

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 16 21:00:17 1995
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Date:         Fri, 16 Jun 95 14:57:45 CDT
From: Laura Doyle <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: UIC Library of the Health Sciences
Subject:      SF thesaurus; formerly RE: terraforming
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Cc: Chris Shaffer <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 16 Jun 1995 15:01:00 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]>

Wonderful!  Colleen, I was talking with a colleague just two weeks ago
about trying to do a thesaurus.  We got as far as checking to see if
one had been done.  The only thing we could find that was published
independently was Michael Burgess' A GUIDE TO SCIENCE FICTION & FANTASY
IN THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS CLASSIFICATION SCHEME (published as part
of the Borgo Reference Library, Volume VIII, ISSN 0270-3653), August
1994.  My colleague suspects that some of the ongoing series that
index sf (such as Greenwood's series) must surely have some kind of
thesaurus they use but we haven't checked yet.  I would very
definitely be interested in doing one, and I suspect he would also
be interested in working on one.  If you like, I have started a
"baby thesaurus" specifically for my feminist sff-utopia pages
at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/sf/femsf.thesaurus   .  If you are
really interested in working on this, let's take the discussion
off the list so we don't bore non-librarians.

On Fri, 16 Jun 1995 15:01:00 -0400 Colleen Stumbaugh said:
>I love it!  As a librarian, I tend to catagorize books, and now I have a
>new genre area.  There is fantasy (high or low) and science fiction
>(hard, soft, and post-Heinlien-kill-the-invading-bugs).  Actually, I
>think this has come up before, but is there a list of the types of
>fantasy/horror/science fiction?  This would be very useful to
>bibiliographies and us poor librarians.  I am thinking along the lines of
>a thesarus; if it does not exist, is anyone interested in helping me
>create one?
>
>Colleen
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian    [log in to unmask]
>Library of Congress                                  (202) 707-4132
>Washington, DC 20540-4861                       FAX: (202) 707-4142
>These opinions are mine, Mine MINE!
>__________________________________________________________________________
>
>


   Laura M. Doyle / [log in to unmask]
                 or  [log in to unmask]
"You don't call, you don't write, you don't send me
flowers.  You only forward email.  Sigh."  -- Beth
Braswell, personal email, 2/21/95

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 16 21:19:30 1995
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From: "Raphael Carter" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization:  Black swan fallacy illustrated
To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Fri, 16 Jun 1995 18:10:19 -0700
Subject:       "seminal"
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Priority: normal
X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3)

> Feminine of seminal is ovulal?

"Oval."

Nevertheless, the metaphor in "seminal" makes sense.  Seed (or
semen), like a seminal work of art, can be widely dispersed and have
an influence over a large area; eggs can't.  Think of pollen,
especially.  I'm a conscientious "sie" user, but I can't see any
good reason to get rid of the word "seminal."

I will, however, readily advocate "pollinic" for works of art that
have a wide influence but also irritate a lot of people.  You know, 
like _Dhalgren_ or _Ulysses_.

--
[log in to unmask]           http://www.indirect.com/www/raphael/

From cstu  Sat Jun 17 12:51:12 1995
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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 12:51:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: SF Thesaurus: formerly RE: Terraforming (fwd)
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Date:         Fri, 16 Jun 95 14:57:45 CDT
From: Laura Doyle <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      SF thesaurus; formerly RE: terraforming

Wonderful!  Colleen, I was talking with a colleague just two weeks ago
about trying to do a thesaurus.  We got as far as checking to see if
one had been done.  The only thing we could find that was published
independently was Michael Burgess' A GUIDE TO SCIENCE FICTION & FANTASY
IN THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS CLASSIFICATION SCHEME (published as part
of the Borgo Reference Library, Volume VIII, ISSN 0270-3653), August
1994.  My colleague suspects that some of the ongoing series that
index sf (such as Greenwood's series) must surely have some kind of
thesaurus they use but we haven't checked yet.  I would very
definitely be interested in doing one, and I suspect he would also
be interested in working on one.  If you like, I have started a
"baby thesaurus" specifically for my feminist sff-utopia pages
at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/sf/femsf.thesaurus   .  If you are
really interested in working on this, let's take the discussion
off the list so we don't bore non-librarians.

On Fri, 16 Jun 1995 15:01:00 -0400 Colleen Stumbaugh said:
>I love it!  As a librarian, I tend to catagorize books, and now I have a
>new genre area.  There is fantasy (high or low) and science fiction
>(hard, soft, and post-Heinlien-kill-the-invading-bugs).  Actually, I
>think this has come up before, but is there a list of the types of
>fantasy/horror/science fiction?  This would be very useful to
>bibiliographies and us poor librarians.  I am thinking along the lines of
>a thesarus; if it does not exist, is anyone interested in helping me
>create one?
>
>Colleen
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian    [log in to unmask]
>Library of Congress                                  (202) 707-4132
>Washington, DC 20540-4861                       FAX: (202) 707-4142
>These opinions are mine, Mine MINE!
>__________________________________________________________________________
>
>


   Laura M. Doyle / [log in to unmask]
                 or  [log in to unmask]
"You don't call, you don't write, you don't send me
flowers.  You only forward email.  Sigh."  -- Beth
Braswell, personal email, 2/21/95


From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 16 21:30:48 1995
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <[log in to unmask]>
From: "Raphael Carter" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization:  Black swan fallacy illustrated
To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Fri, 16 Jun 1995 18:31:39 -0700
Subject:       Re: From Sandra Kisner: Aliens and Linguists
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Priority: normal
X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.0-WB3)

I don't think my previous message on this subject got through, so:  
those who liked the ST:TNG episode "Darmok" might want to look at my 
_Darmok Dictionary_, available from my home page (see URL in my 
signature).

_Aliens and Linguists_ is pretty good, though Meyers seems to miss 
the joke in his analyses of some works.  

--
[log in to unmask]           http://www.indirect.com/www/raphael/

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 16 22:47:09 1995
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From: "EJUSERS" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Fri, 16 Jun 1995 21:46:11 EST
Subject:       Re: Types of sf/fantasy
Priority: normal
X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>

There are a number of typologies of f&sf. Perhpas the most recent 
ambitious attempt is Carl Malmgren's WORLDS APART, of which there is 
a lengthy review in SCEINCE-FICTION STUDIES #56, mARCH 1992, by David 
Ketterer. --R.D. Mullen <[log in to unmask]>

From cstu  Sat Jun 17 13:21:00 1995
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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 13:21:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Types of sf/fantasy
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From: "EJUSERS" <[log in to unmask]>
Date:          Fri, 16 Jun 1995 21:46:11 EST
Subject:       Re: Types of sf/fantasy

There are a number of typologies of f&sf. Perhpas the most recent 
ambitious attempt is Carl Malmgren's WORLDS APART, of which there is 
a lengthy review in SCEINCE-FICTION STUDIES #56, mARCH 1992, by David 
Ketterer. --R.D. Mullen <[log in to unmask]>


From [log in to unmask]  Sat Jun 17 02:04:24 1995
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Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 22:39:02 GMT
From: [log in to unmask] (Patricia Reynolds)
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: kill-the-bugs (was 'terraforming')
X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10
Lines: 36

Dear Colleen (and others interested in a thesaurus)

Count me in - especially on the fantasy side.  Not a librarian,
but in a profession with a meaningful relationship with categories
(currently developing Dahl interactives at Buckinghamshire
County Museum, but don't let that put you off!)


In message <[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask] writes:
> 
> On Fri, 16 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:
> --Snip__
> > needs of an alien species. The best example of it I've found is in David 
> > Gerrold's "The War With the Chtorr" series (which has some nice stuff buried 
> > in a post-Heinlein kill-the-invading-bugs plotline).
> 
> I love it!  As a librarian, I tend to catagorize books, and now I have a 
> new genre area.  There is fantasy (high or low) and science fiction 
> (hard, soft, and post-Heinlien-kill-the-invading-bugs).  Actually, I 
> think this has come up before, but is there a list of the types of 
> fantasy/horror/science fiction?  This would be very useful to 
> bibiliographies and us poor librarians.  I am thinking along the lines of 
> a thesarus; if it does not exist, is anyone interested in helping me 
> create one? 
> 
> Colleen
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian    [log in to unmask]
> Library of Congress                                  (202) 707-4132
> Washington, DC 20540-4861                       FAX: (202) 707-4142
> These opinions are mine, Mine MINE!       
> __________________________________________________________________________
> 
-- 
Patricia Reynolds
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Sat Jun 17 12:48:12 1995
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Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 12:48:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Arthur Hlavaty <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Roger Zelazny
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Well, George, you now have a whole bunch of people waiting for you to 
tell Zelazny's Ellison story....

Arthur D. Hlavaty             [log in to unmask]
Church of the SuperGenius   In Wile E. We Trust


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From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Julian May question
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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The following is quoted from _Jack the Bodiless_, p. 257 (Knopf, 1992):

	"'That,' said Concordance with a sigh, 'is Rudolph the Red-Nosed 
Reindeer, the invention of a minor American writer named Robert May.  The 
Infinite only knows why the beast has become firmly ensconced as part of 
the Christmas myth.  One would not dream of boring one's fellow entities 
with the bathetic fable of Rudolph, which is basically a distortion of 
the Ugly Duckling motif.  Let it suffice to say that human children's 
fondness for Rudolph indicates an inherent darkness in their psyches."

Here is the question: Is the above mentioned Robert May (yes, he did 
write the poem) a relative of Julian May's, and if so, in what way?  She 
certainly does not like the poem, but then if you grew up knowing your 
father/uncle/cousin wrote it, I guess you might feel that way.

Colleen
_________________________________________________________________________
Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian    [log in to unmask]
Library of Congress                                  (202) 707-4132
Washington, DC 20540-4861                       FAX: (202) 707-4142
These opinions are mine, Mine MINE!       
__________________________________________________________________________




From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 18 04:53:21 1995
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: rscott@bigcat
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: On-Line SF&F Lit.
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[log in to unmask]

sf-list
fantasy
night-l


Put subscribe in front of these, and your name after them. Usual deal.
Listowner is Morgan Bottrell. She adds you manually, from memory, after 
you send the commands. This may have changed.

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place

On Thu, 15 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Greetings all,
> I am trying to put together an Internet SF&F Literature guide.  This would
> include Web pages, E-Zines, Newsgroups such as this, etc...  I would
> appreciate input from anyone who might subscribe, or browsed such places
> on the net.  It must be SF&F driven, if not excusively, then at least in
> majority.  When I have a suitable list, which means I have to confirm the
> existence, I will submit this to the SF&F Writer's Workshop, of which I am
> member.  Thanks in advance.
> 
> 
>      Later,
> 
> Robert D. Bair
> IBM Charlotte     RDBAIR at CLTVM1
> CSP Test Engineering Support
> [log in to unmask]
> AR: WB3AHC, 1st Class FCC: P1-3-17298, Tripoli: #2253, NAR: #60163
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 18 08:59:55 1995
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Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 07:04:20 -0600 (MDT)
From: Holly Koelling <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF Thesaurus: formerly RE: Terraforming (fwd)
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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Concerning the SF thesaurus idea - as a Head Librarian of a Popular 
Materials Center where reader's advisory is frequent and patrons are 
demanding(!), I would be very interested in following this.  Although 
helpful, the general reader's advisory resources in SF don't really 
include the depth of topical and subtopical categories to assist patrons in 
unearthing specific sf interests from our collection or through an 
inter-library loan subject-search process.  

I am also in the process of beginning what our library calls a "bookmark 
bibliography" for books on sentient earth creatures in space.  David Brin 
comes to mind, but we're stymied otherwise right now.  Any suggestions?

Holly Koelling
Head Librarian, Popular Materials
Mesa County Public Library District
Grand Junction, CO

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 18 09:16:41 1995
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Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 06:16:13 -0700
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Book Sales
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
X-Mailer: AIR Mail 3.X (SPRY, Inc.)

Is there a source of book sales per novel? I would like to do some research on 
what sells in SF. I am interested to discover which novels of SF have sold the 
most. If there is a pattern of theme, content, character, plot and etc; then I 
would like to test the data. If there are correlations, such as Space Opera 
sell more, then I would be happy to share with group.

Not being a librarian, but a finance person, I need some help to find sales 
per novel. Any suggestions?


Joe de Beauchamp
Seattle, Washington
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 18 13:44:38 1995
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From: Michael Bowman <[log in to unmask]>
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Subject: SF classification
To: [log in to unmask]
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Alastair Cameron published a Dewey Decimal-like Fantasy Classification
System in 1952. It covered science fiction, fantasy and horror. It was
republished and updated in Issue no. 8 (Winter 1989) of _The Whole Science
Fiction Data Base Quarterly_. I found it quite interesting. An outline follows:

00 Aberrations
   01 Subjective horror
   02 Subjective escapism
   04 Objective horror
   06 Mass hallucinations
   08 Chain of circumstances perhaps not accidental
10 Supernatural beings
   11 Beings whose powers are vaguely defined
   12 Monsters
   13 Gods and demons
   15 Fairy tale creatures and nature spirits
   16 Life after death
   17 Personifications and deifications
   18 Famous fictional fantastic characters
   19 Folk heroes
20 Extrapolations on Life and Mind
   21 Interchanges and impositions of will on another
   22 Mental and sensory powers
   23 Mutated and transformed life
   25 Extension of life
   26 Mechanical life forms
   28 Unintelligent extraterrestrial life
   29 Intelligent extraterrestrial life
30 Extrapolations on Living
   31 Other types of society
   32 Utopias and anti-utopias
   33 Religious practices
   34 Types of government
   35 Attempts at domination of the world
   36 Conditions of expanding culture
   37 Conditions of catastrophe and upheaval
   38 Conditions of cultural decay
   39 Sole survivors 
40 Supernatural Places and Things
   41 Worlds out of space and time
   42 Lands based on pseudo-mythology
   43 Old mythological lands
   44 Heaven and hell
   45 Taboo places
   46 Haunted places and things
   47 Mysteries of the sea
   48 Things with supernatural properties
50 Extrapolations on Space
   51 Extrapolations on geography
   52-3 Solar System
   54 Space
   55 Extrasolar
   56 Astronomical phenomena
   58 Size
   59 Dimension
60 Extrapolations on Technology
   61 Gadgets
   62 Engineering developments
   63 Transportation
   64 Weapons
   65 New Scientific principles
   66 Changes in the properties of materials
   67 Communications
   68 Biological engineering
   69 Computing
70 The Past
   71 Cosmic origins
   72 Pre-human life
   73 Early man
   74 Nonhuman terrestrial civilizations
   76 Extraterrestrial civilizations on Earth
   78 Legendary civilizations
   79 Early historical civilizations
80 Extrapolations on Time
   81 Supernatural temporal variations
   82 Variations in the rate of time flow
   83 Time travel: action in past or present: divergent possibilities unimportant
   84 Time travel: action in future: divergent possibilites unimportant
   85 Variations on temporal sequence
   86 Past and present of multiple possibilities
   87 Future of multiple possibilities
   88 Mixing of subjectively contemporary persons & events: sideways
   89 Unmixed alternatives
90 Supernatural, Unrationalized and Distorted Powers and Themes
   91 Subjective conceptualiztion of the world
   92 Magic and sorcery
   93 Curses
   94 Pseudoscientific arts
   95 Unrationalized powers
   99 Intentional distortions of contemporary science



   Michael Bowman
   [log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 18 22:01:35 1995
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Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 22:00:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Terraforming and Thesaurus hunting
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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No, the Thesaurus is not  Cretaceous beast hunted for sport.


On Fri, 16 Jun 1995, Colleen Stumbaugh wrote:

> > needs of an alien species. The best example of it I've found is in David 
> > Gerrold's "The War With the Chtorr" series (which has some nice stuff buried 
> > in a post-Heinlein kill-the-invading-bugs plotline).
> 
> I love it!  As a librarian, I tend to catagorize books, and now I have a 
> new genre area.  There is fantasy (high or low) and science fiction 
> (hard, soft, and post-Heinlien-kill-the-invading-bugs).  Actually, I 
> think this has come up before, but is there a list of the types of 
> fantasy/horror/science fiction?  This would be very useful to 
> bibiliographies and us poor librarians.  I am thinking along the lines of 
> a thesarus; if it does not exist, is anyone interested in helping me 
> create one? 
> 
> Colleen

Have you ever seen the "family tree" of science fiction types that was 
printed in _The _National_Lampoon_ around 1971?

It was meant as a joke on the predictability of SF plots, but it was 
incredibly thorough.

In a single drawing on a single page you could categorize absolutely any 
SF plot by following the lines.

For a librarian like me who is sometimes lost in LC subject headings, I 
was entranced by the simplicity, the ease of dewscription attained there.

Au revoir!

DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 18 22:32:39 1995
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Date: Sun, 18 Jun 1995 22:31:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: From Eric A. Johnson: RE: Libraries and SF Collections 
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Thu, 15 Jun 1995, Arthur Hlavaty wrote:

> When I was in library school, I was most interested to learn that neither 
> Dewey decimal nor Library of Congress distinguishes between "mainstream" 
> and "category" fiction.  Could there be a lesson in that?
> 
> Arthur D. Hlavaty             [log in to unmask]
> Church of the SuperGenius   In Wile E. We Trust

But what about everything that gets dumped in PZ3 or around there?

And what about the possibility for a twisted mind (note that it was like 
this before I did my two year Master's in Library Science) to use the 
flexibility of the Dewey system to categorize fiction.  In my library 
(classifed with both Dewey and LC) Science fiction ends up in 398.4, 
since I consider it as an outgrowth of myths and tales. 

Au revoir!

DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask] 


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 19 03:01:55 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Fwd: Please advise
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 08:00:00 BST
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>> Is there such thing as "Secret Government Files", like the TV program, 
"The
>> X-Files".

[...]

>What exactly does this have to do with Science Fiction Literature?
>Asimov, Bester, Silverberg - *written* SF - is what is usually discussed
>in this group - Perhaps you want the X-Files discussion group,
>alt.tv.x-files ?

This seems harsh, not to mention patronising.

I thought what distinguished this list from others was its primarily 
"literary" bent - and it would seem counterproductive then to say that only 
SOME carefully-written stuff was eligible for consideration.  Of course I 
presume you'd allow SF plays into the arena - until they were actually 
performed of course, in which case we'd have to drop them hurriedly.  What 
about radio, film and TV adaptations of things?  Gosh, what a difficult 
one....  Still, as long as it was actually written FOR one of these media 
then we're quite clear that it was never really "written" at all so we just 
needn't worry about it...

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 19 04:04:39 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: SF-LIT list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Written/other media thing - again...
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 09:03:00 BST
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I've just realised that the message I chose to jump on was originally 
intended privately (I'm at work very early indeed and things are taking me a 
while...), which makes my rather waspish response somewhat out of place in 
itself.  Apologies for that.  All the same, now that it's out there, I 
really am interested in what people think of the "validity" or whatever of 
stuff that was not written entirely and exclusively for print (never mind 
the fact that you can't guarantee it'll stay there even if that is where you 
first put it...).

          Dave

From cstu  Mon Jun 19 07:19:20 1995
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 07:19:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Fwd: Please advise
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On Mon, 19 Jun 1995, D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple wrote:
--Snip__

> 
> I thought what distinguished this list from others was its primarily 
> "literary" bent - and it would seem counterproductive then to say that only 
> SOME carefully-written stuff was eligible for consideration.  Of course I 
> presume you'd allow SF plays into the arena - until they were actually 
> performed of course, in which case we'd have to drop them hurriedly.  What 
> about radio, film and TV adaptations of things?  Gosh, what a difficult 
> one....  Still, as long as it was actually written FOR one of these media 
> then we're quite clear that it was never really "written" at all so we just 
> needn't worry about it...
> 
>           Dave
> 

Actually, this forum allows for discussion of all media, as the 
annoucement says:


SF-LIT is a moderated computer forum open to anyone interested in
discussing issues related to the literary side of Science Fiction &
Fantasy in all its various media forms. 
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  

The use of the term literary is a bit misleading; any topic about science 
fiction, fantasy or horror that is dealt with in a research, academic or 
study manner is fair game for this list ("Break out the guns, boys, we're 
a goin' hunting!")  As moderator, I tend to interpert this boardly.  
Using the posting about X-files as an example, the question could be:
 Is X-files intended to be portraying the real world or fiction?
 How much of the X-files is fiction?
 What is the creator's intend?

Even if the questions are not phrased this way, the topics are still 
there.  Sometimes the postings seem a bit off for the list, but I figure 
anything can turn into a research question.  I hope this clears up any 
problems on what is allowed on SF-LIT.

Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]
   





From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 19 04:55:28 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF Thesaurus: formerly RE: Terraforming (fwd)
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 09:55:01 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Colleen Stumbaugh" at Jun 17, 95 12:58:56 pm
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In the last mail Colleen Stumbaugh said:
> 
> Date:         Fri, 16 Jun 95 14:57:45 CDT
> From: Laura Doyle <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject:      SF thesaurus; formerly RE: terraforming
> 

I think this would be a good idea. It's been done in practice (ENCYCLOPEDIA
OF SCIENCE FICTION) etc. but it would be nice to think that  we could extend
what people have often done on a fairly ad-hoc basis. Count me in.
> 
> On Fri, 16 Jun 1995 15:01:00 -0400 Colleen Stumbaugh said:
> >I love it!  As a librarian, I tend to catagorize books, and now I have a
> >new genre area.  There is fantasy (high or low) and science fiction
> >(hard, soft, and post-Heinlien-kill-the-invading-bugs).  Actually, I
> >think this has come up before, but is there a list of the types of
> >fantasy/horror/science fiction?  This would be very useful to
> >bibiliographies and us poor librarians.  I am thinking along the lines of
> >a thesarus; if it does not exist, is anyone interested in helping me
> >create one?
> >
> >Colleen
> >_________________________________________________________________________
> >Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian    [log in to unmask]
> >Library of Congress                                  (202) 707-4132
> >Washington, DC 20540-4861                       FAX: (202) 707-4142
> >These opinions are mine, Mine MINE!
> >__________________________________________________________________________

-- 
Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool
PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK
0151-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html

"Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight)

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 19 04:58:59 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dahl interactives
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 09:58:40 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Patricia Reynolds" at Jun 17, 95 01:31:18 pm
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In the last mail Patricia Reynolds said:
> 
> Dear Colleen (and others interested in a thesaurus)
> 
> Count me in - especially on the fantasy side.  Not a librarian,
> but in a profession with a meaningful relationship with categories
> (currently developing Dahl interactives at Buckinghamshire
> County Museum, but don't let that put you off!)
> 
Tell me more: Interactive Dahl sound wonderfully disgusting


-- 
Andy Sawyer, (who used to be a children's librarian and can still
recite large chunks of the "Revolting Rhymes")
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool
PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK
0151-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html

"Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight)

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 19 06:36:37 1995
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From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]>
To: "sf-lit%loc.gov" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: SCI_FI / Science Fiction Monthly
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This weekend I spent a little time sorting through boxes of old NEL SF 
paperbacks, (looking for my Roger Zelanzy ones), and came across something 
relevent to our discussion a while back about  SF vs Sci-Fi.  In the back of 
one of the books was an advert for an up and coming new magazine called 
Science Fiction Monthly.   It was nice to be reminded of that publication 
again, and next weekend I'll try to put some time aside to dig out my 
precious copies, but to get to the point there was some small print under 
the subscription form which said that the mag had originaly been advertised 
as SCI-FI but that the publishers had changed it to Science Fiction Monthly 
and apologised for any confusion.
So, it seems at least possible that, back in 73, the publishers were made 
aware of the negative effect their original choice might have had on their 
intended target market and so changed it.

markw - who used to annoy the hell ot of his newsagent asking if his SFM had 
come in yet.  

From cstu  Mon Jun 19 07:42:05 1995
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From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: SCI_FI / Science Fiction Monthly (fwd)
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From: Mark Woolrich <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: SCI_FI / Science Fiction Monthly
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 95 11:31:00 UTC


This weekend I spent a little time sorting through boxes of old NEL SF 
paperbacks, (looking for my Roger Zelanzy ones), and came across something 
relevent to our discussion a while back about  SF vs Sci-Fi.  In the back of 
one of the books was an advert for an up and coming new magazine called 
Science Fiction Monthly.   It was nice to be reminded of that publication 
again, and next weekend I'll try to put some time aside to dig out my 
precious copies, but to get to the point there was some small print under 
the subscription form which said that the mag had originaly been advertised 
as SCI-FI but that the publishers had changed it to Science Fiction Monthly 
and apologised for any confusion.
So, it seems at least possible that, back in 73, the publishers were made 
aware of the negative effect their original choice might have had on their 
intended target market and so changed it.

markw - who used to annoy the hell ot of his newsagent asking if his SFM had 
come in yet.  


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 19 09:05:41 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: classifications

Here's some sub-categories for your proposed list, off the top of my head:

Fantasy
     High (aka Epic)
     Humorous
     Contemporary
     Mannerist
     Invented World (as opposed to our real world)
     Historical
     Arthurian
     Allegorical

SF
     Hard
     Soft
     Cyberpunk
     Alternate History
     Near-, Medium- or Far-Future (pick one)
     Humorous
     Utopian
     Dystopian
     "If This Goes On..." or Predictive
     Post-Holocaust
     Science Fantasy
     Incomprehensible (aka New Wave)
     Allegorical
     First Contact
     Space Opera
     Baroque (e.g., Jack Vance)
     Apocalyptic
               
But, of course, a SF/Fantasy work can often fit into several categories at 
once. And standard 'literary' categories (e.g., bildungsroman, which is even 
more common in SF than it is in 'regular' literature) often also apply. To be 
completely comprehensive (and I'm not offering to do this myself, just 
throwing out the suggestion to the professional librarians out there), what 
would be needed is a list of motifs, like those used to categorize folklore.

And, since I inadvertently started this thread, I'll add that I meant 'post-
Heinlein' as a serious description and 'kill-the-invading-bugs' as a more 
tongue in cheek (I was trying to evoke all those mediocre giant-bug movies) 
adjective. Though, in a motif index, alien invader would definitely be 
included, with major subheadings for lizard and bug aliens (as the favored 
types of invaders). And a yet further subdivision would be between violent 
chitinous aliens (the Gerrold books) or chitinous aliens who invade for a 
peaceful purpose (as in Clarke's _Childhood's End_).
                                     

Andy Wheeler

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 19 13:01:05 1995
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Well, look at Neil Gaiman and what theRe: Written/other media thing , - again...
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Well, Neil Gaiman was shafted for an award after he won it a couple of 
times and they changed it so that 'only novels' could win, or something. 
Extremely stupid, IMO. Things will change, so why be that limiting? 
(except of course they were displaying human jealousy :) )

If it has to be 'written' then perhaps they should ban books written on 
word processsors, or typewriters, as they are both-machine-assisted.

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place

On Mon, 19 Jun 1995, D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple wrote:

> 
> I've just realised that the message I chose to jump on was originally 
> intended privately (I'm at work very early indeed and things are taking me a 
> while...), which makes my rather waspish response somewhat out of place in 
> itself.  Apologies for that.  All the same, now that it's out there, I 
> really am interested in what people think of the "validity" or whatever of 
> stuff that was not written entirely and exclusively for print (never mind 
> the fact that you can't guarantee it'll stay there even if that is where you 
> first put it...).
> 
>           Dave
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 19 16:02:18 1995
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 16:02:17 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Call for submissions

Am editing a work  (Echoes from Valis), which relates to the 52 tractates in
the Appendix to VALIS.  Send mailing address for formal prospectus.   John
Meluch  (216) 228-4725
Mailing Address:  1354 W. Clifton #6, Lakewwod, OH. 44107

From eaj  Mon Jun 19 16:22:22 1995
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From: "Eric A. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE:  SF & Library Collections
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Although somewhat out of date, the Haworth Press published a special 
issue (vol. 2, no. 1/2 ; Fall/Winter 1982) of SPECIAL COLLECTIONS (ISSN 
0270-3157) devoted to "Science Fiction Collections:  Fantasy, 
Supernatural, & Weird Tales."  The issue has various descpriptions of SF 
collections at various universities (which are now 13 years out of date) 
but also an interesting article by Fred Lerner on "The Cataloging and 
Classification of Science Fiction Collections" (pp. 151-170).  Anyways 
... EAJ 


*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| Eric A. Johnson				|     *OPINIONS MINE*     |
| Senior Exchange Specialist (Baltics & CIS)	|			  |
| & Recommending Officer for Science Fiction	|  Voice:  (202) 707-9498 |
| Exchange & Gift Division (COLL/E&G/EES)	|  FAX:    (202) 707-2086 |
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		 believing in it, doesn't go away."

				Philip K. Dick, 1928-1982


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 19 17:46:19 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
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There are also two X-Files novels out there, too... :-)

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place

On Mon, 19 Jun 1995, D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple wrote:

> 
> >> Is there such thing as "Secret Government Files", like the TV program, 
> "The
> >> X-Files".
> 
> [...]
> 
> >What exactly does this have to do with Science Fiction Literature?
> >Asimov, Bester, Silverberg - *written* SF - is what is usually discussed
> >in this group - Perhaps you want the X-Files discussion group,
> >alt.tv.x-files ?
> 
> This seems harsh, not to mention patronising.
> 
> I thought what distinguished this list from others was its primarily 
> "literary" bent - and it would seem counterproductive then to say that only 
> SOME carefully-written stuff was eligible for consideration.  Of course I 
> presume you'd allow SF plays into the arena - until they were actually 
> performed of course, in which case we'd have to drop them hurriedly.  What 
> about radio, film and TV adaptations of things?  Gosh, what a difficult 
> one....  Still, as long as it was actually written FOR one of these media 
> then we're quite clear that it was never really "written" at all so we just 
> needn't worry about it...
> 
>           Dave
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 19 20:20:26 1995
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 20:19:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: decimal SF classification
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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Are youprsenting the first two levels only?

Is there more?

DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask] 

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 19 21:42:43 1995
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 20:44:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: SF thesaurus

I am very interseted in the creation of this thesaurus.  Two sources I
sometimes use right now for readers' advisory are _What Do I Read Next_
(pub. Gale) and _Genreflecting_ by Betty Rosenberg.  Both of these break
down Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror into many sub catagories.
_What Do I Read Next_
 Fantasy
   Adventure
   Alternate World
   Anthology
   Collection
   Contemporary
   Contemporary Realism
   Historical (ex. Porcelain Dove, Song for Arbonne)
   Horror
   Legend
   Light Fantasy
   Literary
   Magic Conflict
   Military
   Mystery
   Political
   Post Disaster
   Psychic Powers
   Quest
   Religious
   Romance
   Science Fiction
   Sword and Sorcery
   Time Travel
   Urban (ex. DeLint)
   Young Adult
 
Some other examples include Horror--evil children
                            Horror--reanimated dead
                            Horror--Wild talents
                            Science Fiction--generation starship
                            Science Fiction--space opera
_WDIRN_ gives a one sentence definition for all these catagories also.

Some of Genreflecting's catagories include:
                            Science fiction--hard science
                            Science fiction--dystopia/utopia
                            Science fiction--lost worlds
                            Science fiction--social criticism
                            Fantasy--Arthurian Legend
                            Fantasy--Tolkien tradition
                            Fantasy--Shared worlds and franchise universes
Both of these titles give many examples of what in their opinions 
fit the headings.
katherine    
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 20 00:13:07 1995
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 23:04:00 +0200
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To: [log in to unmask]
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                                        19.06.95 / 19 Jun 95

Any librarians at the University of Kansas reading this? Or anybody else who  
can provide information about the World SF Depository at the Kenneth Spencer  
Research Library, U. of Kansas? (A. Sawyer, perhaps?)

Is it operating? Is it still looking for contributions? If so, what exactly?  
Any other information that might be of interest?

--
Tim Slater, B.A. (Nat. Sci.), MITI
[log in to unmask]     CIS: 1000024,2546
Eglinger Str. 15A, D-82544 Egling-Moosham, GERMANY
_____    __          phone: +49-8176-1393   fax: -1722
  |     |__          Oeffentlich bestellter und allgemein beeidigter
  | RAN  __| LATER   Dolmetscher und Uebersetzer fuer die englische Sprache

## CrossPoint v3.02 ##

From cstu  Tue Jun 20 09:58:57 1995
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From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: World SF Depository at U. Kansas
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Sorry Timothy.  It seems your address has additions sometimes; I have 
added an alias to the system, so hopefully this won't happen again.

Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 23:04:00 +0200
From: [log in to unmask] (Timothy Slater)
Subject: World SF Depository at U. Kansas

                                        19.06.95 / 19 Jun 95

Any librarians at the University of Kansas reading this? Or anybody else who  
can provide information about the World SF Depository at the Kenneth Spencer  
Research Library, U. of Kansas? (A. Sawyer, perhaps?)

Is it operating? Is it still looking for contributions? If so, what exactly?  
Any other information that might be of interest?

--
Tim Slater, B.A. (Nat. Sci.), MITI
[log in to unmask]     CIS: 1000024,2546
Eglinger Str. 15A, D-82544 Egling-Moosham, GERMANY
_____    __          phone: +49-8176-1393   fax: -1722
  |     |__          Oeffentlich bestellter und allgemein beeidigter
  | RAN  __| LATER   Dolmetscher und Uebersetzer fuer die englische Sprache

## CrossPoint v3.02 ##


From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 20 00:13:18 1995
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Subject: Why "terraforming" of Mars et al.
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                                        19.06.95 / 19 Jun 95
Richard Scott asked why the word "terraforming" is used in SF books about  
Mars et al., and whether this shouldn't be "areoforming".

No, because the meaning of the term is "to change (the surface and biosphere  
of) another planet into an environment that Terrestrial life, especially  
human beings, can live in", i.e. "terra" refers to the goal, not the object  
of the reform.


--
Tim Slater, B.A. (Nat. Sci.), MITI
[log in to unmask]     CIS: 1000024,2546
Eglinger Str. 15A, D-82544 Egling-Moosham, GERMANY
_____    __          phone: +49-8176-1393   fax: -1722
  |     |__          Oeffentlich bestellter und allgemein beeidigter
  | RAN  __| LATER   Dolmetscher und Uebersetzer fuer die englische Sprache

## CrossPoint v3.02 ##

From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 20 00:56:23 1995
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Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 23:56:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: "John J. Ronald" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Written/other media thing - again...
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Mon, 19 Jun 1995, D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple wrote:

> 
> I've just realised that the message I chose to jump on was originally 
> intended privately (I'm at work very early indeed and things are taking me a 
> while...), which makes my rather waspish response somewhat out of place in 
> itself.  Apologies for that.  All the same, now that it's out there, I 
> really am interested in what people think of the "validity" or whatever of 
> stuff that was not written entirely and exclusively for print (never mind 
> the fact that you can't guarantee it'll stay there even if that is where you 
> first put it...).
> 

Having just had a Film Seminar last semester, I can say that
we discussed at length the debate between traditional print
texts and the filmic medium;  Film has (until fairly recently)
often been put down as less "intellectual" than the printed
word, and cultural conservatives at the beginning of this
century feared that the Cinema would spell the end of
books altogether;  Rather, film has raised itself up from
pure entertainment and into the realm of legitimate intellectual
expression worthy of academic criticism...it sort of mirrors
the ascent of SF in a strange sort of way.  Moreover, SF
films have had their own history, growing up from cheesy
"B" movies of the 1950s to todays SF films...but even in
the early days of film there were excellent SF pieces,
namely Fritz Lang's _Metropolis_ from Germany.  And
I know some people who praise the classic American films
"The Forbidden Planet" and "The Day the Earth Stood Still".
(I haven't seen these films, and thus can't give an opinion
about them) highly as well.  Since Cinema is accepted in
other genres of Literature as worthy of academic criticism
and attention, why not in SF as well?  Granted, I think you
have to separate more serious films (_2001_, _A Clockwork Orange_)
from the pure entertainment flicks (_The Last Starfighter_, etc.),
but beyond that, why not?

Anyhow, I'm all for looking at & discussing SF in other
media besides merely print texts...anyone else?

--John Ronald
	Rice University


From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 20 10:36:20 1995
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Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 08:40:50 -0600 (MDT)
From: Holly Koelling <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF thesaurus
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Just a note: the last 2 or 3 editions of _Genreflecting_ were written by 
Diana Tixier Herald.  Betty Rosenberg passed away some time ago.  The 4th 
edition will be out this August, and contains drastic changes in 
genre/subgenre categories.

On Tue, 20 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> I am very interseted in the creation of this thesaurus.  Two sources I
> sometimes use right now for readers' advisory are _What Do I Read Next_
> (pub. Gale) and _Genreflecting_ by Betty Rosenberg.  Both of these break
> down Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror into many sub catagories.
> _What Do I Read Next_
>  Fantasy
>    Adventure
>    Alternate World
>    Anthology
>    Collection
>    Contemporary
>    Contemporary Realism
>    Historical (ex. Porcelain Dove, Song for Arbonne)
>    Horror
>    Legend
>    Light Fantasy
>    Literary
>    Magic Conflict
>    Military
>    Mystery
>    Political
>    Post Disaster
>    Psychic Powers
>    Quest
>    Religious
>    Romance
>    Science Fiction
>    Sword and Sorcery
>    Time Travel
>    Urban (ex. DeLint)
>    Young Adult
>  
> Some other examples include Horror--evil children
>                             Horror--reanimated dead
>                             Horror--Wild talents
>                             Science Fiction--generation starship
>                             Science Fiction--space opera
> _WDIRN_ gives a one sentence definition for all these catagories also.
> 
> Some of Genreflecting's catagories include:
>                             Science fiction--hard science
>                             Science fiction--dystopia/utopia
>                             Science fiction--lost worlds
>                             Science fiction--social criticism
>                             Fantasy--Arthurian Legend
>                             Fantasy--Tolkien tradition
>                             Fantasy--Shared worlds and franchise universes
> Both of these titles give many examples of what in their opinions 
> fit the headings.
> katherine    
> [log in to unmask]
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 20 12:07:31 1995
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Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 09:07:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Bowman <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: decimal SF classification
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 20 Jun 1995, Vaillancourt Alain wrote:

> 
> 
> Are youprsenting the first two levels only?
> 
> Is there more?

The entire classification scheme is 20-40 pages long. The first two 
levels is all I'm willing to type in. If someone has a scanner and is 
willing to make electronic copies for people I'm willing to make a 
photocopy and mail it to them (I'd like an electronic copy myself).

Michael Bowman
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 20 12:09:17 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: World SF Depository at U. Kansas
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 17:06:28 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Colleen Stumbaugh" at Jun 20, 95 10:01:58 am
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In the last mail Colleen Stumbaugh said:
> 
> Sorry Timothy.  It seems your address has additions sometimes; I have 
> added an alias to the system, so hopefully this won't happen again.
> 
> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 23:04:00 +0200
> From: [log in to unmask] (Timothy Slater)
> Subject: World SF Depository at U. Kansas
> 
>                                         19.06.95 / 19 Jun 95
> 
> Any librarians at the University of Kansas reading this? Or anybody else who  
> can provide information about the World SF Depository at the Kenneth Spencer  
> Research Library, U. of Kansas? (A. Sawyer, perhaps?)
> 
> Is it operating? Is it still looking for contributions? If so, what exactly?  
> Any other information that might be of interest?
> 
This looks to me like the Kenneth Spencer Research Library, at University
of Kansas, which according to Neil barron (Anatomy of Wonder) is the official
repository for the archives of the Science Fiction research association and
the North American Repository for World SF, which deposits non-English Language
books. Its manuscript collection includes those of Cordwainer Smith. I
am jealous.

If anyone on here is anything to do with the collection, I'd love to hear from
you.> 


-- 
Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool
PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK
0151-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html

"Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight)

From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 20 12:38:01 1995
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Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 09:35:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Wallace <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: fantasy genres/Betty Rosenberg
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Fantasy genres:

Back when I was a member of the Mythopoeic Society, someone came up with 
the idea that there are three types of fantasy, each exemplified by the 
Three Authors that the society centered on:

J. R. R. Tolkien - Completely alternate universe; cf. Steven Brust.

C. S. Lewis - Modern humans go to alternate universe; cf. Stephen R. 
Donaldson (Covenant)

Charles Williams - Alternate universe breaks in on modern world; cf. 
"Urban fantasy"

Not exactly genres, but an interesting way of splitting out the types.

Was the Betty Rosenberg who wrote _Genreflections_ the same as the 
instructor at UCLA's Grad. School of Lib. Science?  She was my thesis 
advisor.  

regards,
jim wallace
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 20 15:19:25 1995
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From: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Written & Other Media
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I acknowledge the validity of Film/TV as field of scholarly and academic 
and general interest. But I no longer have the time to involve myself in 
a completely new area and become knowledgeable enough to understand 
discussions of it on this list. This limitation means that, if there are 
going to be long discussions of SF in Other Media in this group, I am 
simply going to spend time deleting things without reading them. Cannot 
those people interested in SF and Other Media set up or have set up for 
them, a discussion group of their own?  I am sorry to be so disagreeable, 
but I only have one head and it is already in use. :-)


*****************************************************************
patricia monk (dr)                              [log in to unmask]
                   "just visiting this planet"
*****************************************************************




From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 20 15:47:14 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: SF in Other Media (was: other media thing)
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 95 12:37:41 PDT
Message-Id: <9506201937.294F28@martinw>
X-Mailer: SelectMAIL 1.2

John J. Ronald ([log in to unmask]) wrote:

|Since Cinema is accepted in
|other genres of Literature as worthy of academic criticism
|and attention, why not in SF as well?

IMHO, there's no reason not to discuss SF cinema in a serious, critical 
fashion (and I think Colleen would be open to it, too).  Anyone who's 
read this list over the last few weeks knows that I'm prone to spouting 
about SF in comic book form as well.  I personally enjoy and value 
discussion of SF in any media; for the literature purists out there, I 
think that you can look at some very clear and fascinating connections 
between SF lit and cinema that would expand understanding of both 
forms, i.e. the evolution of Clarke's "The Sentinel" into 
Clarke/Kubrick's cinematic "2001" into Clarke's "2001" novel, PKD's 
"Androids...Sheep" into PKD's/Scott's "Blade Runner", etc.

|And I know some people who praise the classic American films
|"The Forbidden Planet" and "The Day the Earth Stood Still".
|(I haven't seen these films, and thus can't give an opinion
|about them) highly as well.  

Get thee to a video store!  See Leslie Nielsen in a dramatic "starship 
captain" role!  Discover the highly significant meaning behind the 
cryptic phrase, "Gort Klaatu Barada Nikto"!  Seriously, though, for 
other reasons, I do consider these films important to the history of 
cinematic SF and thus to the genre of SF--I won't ruin the films for 
you by explaining why--maybe after you've viddied them.

|Granted, I think you
|have to separate more serious films (_2001_, _A Clockwork Orange_)
|from the pure entertainment flicks (_The Last Starfighter_, etc.),
|but beyond that, why not?

I certainly agree that some films have more value than other films, but 
I wouldn't go so far as to draw hard and fast lines between "these 
films" and "those films", perhaps because I've seen lines drawn that 
excluded films that I value (i.e. Soylent Green, Westworld, Silent 
Running, Rollerball, etc.), even if they are less valuable (or "rich") 
than others.

|Anyhow, I'm all for looking at & discussing SF in other
|media besides merely print texts...anyone else?

You know my vote.  Anyone want to say anything about interactive media? 
 I seem to recall a Niven quote (off the box, I think) regarding the 
Ringworld computer game, something like "I always felt that the next 
Ringworld novel should be interactive..."

-Martin S. Won
 [log in to unmask]



From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 20 15:53:31 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
References: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Zoryany Shlyah SF Club
From: Boris Sidyuk <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 95 20:04:31 +0300
X-Mailer: BML [MS/DOS Beauty Mail v.1.36]
Subject: Re: From [log in to unmask]: Please advise
Lines: 11

>   Is there such thing as "Secret Government Files", like the TV program, "The
>   X-Files".
>
>   And what about the so-called Sceret Files from the KGB that discuss
>   UFO and alien encounters.

I heard there are secret files about UFO in the XUSSR. I was fond of UFO
in my teens. Sorry, not now.

Regards, Boris
[log in to unmask]

From cstu  Wed Jun 21 12:16:38 1995
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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 12:16:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Discussion is open to all media
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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	This list is open to discussion of all media, as long as it is on 
science fiction, fantasy, or horror and approaches it from a research, 
study, or librarianship angle.  Yes, I have been very liberal in 
interpreting the last part, but all of you are great at seeing the 
research part of these postings.  Since we have had discussions on many 
media forms (books, comics, TV, movies) already, I think we will not be 
swamped by any one form now.  This is not a large group (currently 480+ 
members) and most of you are using good descriptive subject lines.  So 
lets keep doing what we have been for now.

Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]
  


From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 20 15:53:37 1995
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Organization: Zoryany Shlyah SF Club
From: Boris Sidyuk <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 95 20:06:39 +0300
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Subject: From Adora: Re: Plot???
Lines: 12

>> Boris said:
>> Anyway, I agree with one true postulate -
>> there is only one plot in literature - Odyssey.
>
> I'm confused. Do you mean the _Odyssey_ (read: ancient greek book) or
> 'odessey' (read: persons partaking of a journey)?
> This isn't a challange - just a question.

I meant Odyssey as a plot not as a character.

Regards, Boris
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 20 22:23:07 1995
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From: Flora Persons <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: classifications
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Please consider Olderr's Fiction Subject Headings bySteven Olderr,as I 
have found his subject headings to be very practical.  Also, If you 
have access to Science-Fiction: the early years by Everett F. 
Bleiler, it is a wonderful example of the most detailed and usable 
indexing I have seen for SF.  Hopefully, he, or someone else will 
continue the index  (It only covers the time up to the 1930's)

FloraJane Persons
Librarian Popular Library Section
Multnomah County Library
248-5471


From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 20 22:35:08 1995
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Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 22:34:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: decimal SF classification
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Tue, 20 Jun 1995, Michael Bowman wrote:

> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 12:36:48 -0400
> From: Michael Bowman <[log in to unmask]>
> To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: decimal SF classification
> 
> On Tue, 20 Jun 1995, Vaillancourt Alain wrote:
> > 
> > Are youprsenting the first two levels only?
> > 
> > Is there more?
> 
> The entire classification scheme is 20-40 pages long. The first two 
> levels is all I'm willing to type in. If someone has a scanner and is 
> willing to make electronic copies for people I'm willing to make a 
> photocopy and mail it to them (I'd like an electronic copy myself).
> 
> Michael Bowman
> [log in to unmask]
> 

Could you just tell us where Alastair Cameron published this first in 1952?

For some of us, it might be easier to find than a copy of Issue no. 8 
(winter 89) of _the whole sf database quarterly_

Au revoir!


DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask] 

From cstu  Wed Jun 21 12:40:34 1995
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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 12:40:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: decimal SF classification (fwd)
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Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 22:34:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: decimal SF classification

On Tue, 20 Jun 1995, Michael Bowman wrote:

> Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 12:36:48 -0400
> From: Michael Bowman <[log in to unmask]>
> To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: decimal SF classification
> 
> On Tue, 20 Jun 1995, Vaillancourt Alain wrote:
> > 
> > Are youprsenting the first two levels only?
> > 
> > Is there more?
> 
> The entire classification scheme is 20-40 pages long. The first two 
> levels is all I'm willing to type in. If someone has a scanner and is 
> willing to make electronic copies for people I'm willing to make a 
> photocopy and mail it to them (I'd like an electronic copy myself).
> 
> Michael Bowman
> [log in to unmask]
> 

Could you just tell us where Alastair Cameron published this first in 1952?

For some of us, it might be easier to find than a copy of Issue no. 8 
(winter 89) of _the whole sf database quarterly_

Au revoir!


DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask] 


From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 20 22:49:29 1995
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 20 Jun 1995 22:50:48 +0000 (EASTERN)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 1995 22:50:48 +0000 (EASTERN)
From: "BOB S." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: CLARKEAN MAGIC
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]"
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I believe it was Arthur C. Clarke who wrote something like "any sufficiently
advance technology will appear to be magic." Does anyone know the actual
quotation and the source? Thanks in advance.

From cstu  Wed Jun 21 13:02:43 1995
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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 13:02:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: CLARKEAN MAGIC
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Bob,
	I remembered that this same question came up a few months ago, so 
I checked in the SF-LIT archives (available via LC MARVEL, our gopher) 
and found that Eric A. Johnson located the source as OMNI, April 1980, P. 
87 and that the quote was:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistingishable from magic" 

There are also some amusing variants on this quote in the same archives 
(sf-litlog.9403).  
Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]


On Wed, 21 Jun 1995, BOB S. wrote:

> I believe it was Arthur C. Clarke who wrote something like "any sufficiently
> advance technology will appear to be magic." Does anyone know the actual
> quotation and the source? Thanks in advance.
> 


From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 20 23:38:53 1995
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
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To: [log in to unmask]
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That is what the 5th book in the HHGTTG series is, same as the title. 
Nowhere near the level of the first two, not even as good as the third or 
the fourth. Was ok mind candy, but not really funny and a very quick 
read. Is Adams sick of it, or just not as funny anymore? Or, or we just 
jaded and used to it?

Mostly Arthur and Ford, with a bit of Trillian or two thrown in.

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place


From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 21 00:46:02 1995
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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 00:46:01 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF thesaurus

I have four thoughts on the creation of an SF Thesaurus:

Is 'SF Thesaurus' the right name for this piece of work?  SF Catalogue?  SF
Directory?  SF Classifications?  Thesaurus seems to imply an source for
cross-referencing SF terminology.

Consider using extended descriptions or definitions for each
heading/sub-heading as might be required.  'Light Fantasy', for instance, is
quite vague.  'Magic Conflict', however, is very concrete.

How would the catalogue's format be changed if it were to include other SF
medias?  Film, Stage, Poetry, Music and others, while not written, are still
valid SF genres.

How could such a catalogue be created to allow more access from a broader,
non-SF community.  For instance, a child wanting to look up a story about a
friendly dragon?  Or someone who wants to know more about the book behind the
movie 2001?  (I know, a bit funny, and perhaps obvious, but it is late and I
couldn't come up with anything better.)


"Any technology, sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from magic."
 Arthur C. Clarke

From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 21 08:45:17 1995
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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 08:45:17 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: 19th Cent. SF

I am presently in the process of editing a collection of pre-twentieth
century SF to be used in high school classes.  I will also be creating
learning activities to go with them.  I have a list of 13 titles presently (
Wells, Hawthorne, Poe, Bierce, Voltaire's Micromegas, E.T. A Hoffman,
Melville, Twain).  

Any  suggestions re: other authors, titles.  THANKS!

John Meluch

From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 21 12:20:41 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF in Other Media (was: other media thing)

Hi

If Connie Willis had to restrict her thinking she couldn't write.
Cooleridge..
Think in other categories.

Martin

From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 21 13:42:36 1995
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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 13:42:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Written & Other Media
To: [log in to unmask]
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I delete every message that looks like it's going to be about movies
or TV. No great effort.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 21 14:01:59 1995
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Subject: Re: Written & Other Media
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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That is what this one is for, already, according to the owner. :) Like 
you said, delete key works well for what you are not interested in!

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place

On Wed, 21 Jun 1995, Patricia Monk wrote:

> I acknowledge the validity of Film/TV as field of scholarly and academic 
> and general interest. But I no longer have the time to involve myself in 
> a completely new area and become knowledgeable enough to understand 
> discussions of it on this list. This limitation means that, if there are 
> going to be long discussions of SF in Other Media in this group, I am 
> simply going to spend time deleting things without reading them. Cannot 
> those people interested in SF and Other Media set up or have set up for 
> them, a discussion group of their own?  I am sorry to be so disagreeable, 
> but I only have one head and it is already in use. :-)
> 
> 
> *****************************************************************
> patricia monk (dr)                              [log in to unmask]
>                    "just visiting this planet"
> *****************************************************************
> 
> 
> 
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 21 14:22:54 1995
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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 13:22:53 -0500 (CDT)
From: "John J. Ronald" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 19th Cent. SF
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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On Wed, 21 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> I am presently in the process of editing a collection of pre-twentieth
> century SF to be used in high school classes.  I will also be creating
> learning activities to go with them.  I have a list of 13 titles presently (
> Wells, Hawthorne, Poe, Bierce, Voltaire's Micromegas, E.T. A Hoffman,
> Melville, Twain).  
> 
> Any  suggestions re: other authors, titles.  THANKS!

John, 
	Check out German author Kurd Lasswitz!  He died in 1910, but
his most famous novel, _Auf Zwei Planeten_ ("On Two Planets", widely
available in translation) was written just before the close of
the 19th century.  Lasswitz also has some facinating essays that
anticipate much of SF-theory that was to evolve in the 20th 
century (speculations about what our moral responsibilities would
be vis a vis alien visitors, etc.);  Unfortunately, Lasswitz is
largely ignored by German literary scholars and largely unknown
in the English-speaking world.  Have a look at him, anyway.
Unlike most of the above authors you mention, Lasswitz was
a scientist & mathematician also.

--J. Ronald
	Rice University
	Dept. of German & Slavic Studies


From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 21 14:31:49 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 19th Cent. SF
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Verne, Shelley, De Bergerac, perhaps? :-)

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place


From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 21 14:36:39 1995
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From: Michael Bowman <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: decimal SF classification (fwd)
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On Wed, 21 Jun 1995, Colleen Stumbaugh wrote:

> For some of us, it might be easier to find than a copy of Issue no. 8 
> (winter 89) of _the whole sf database quarterly_

I'm afraid that WSFDBQ #8 didn't say where they got it from, only the 
date it originally came out.

Michael Bowman
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 21 14:37:34 1995
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From: Joe DeRouen <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Television, gotta love it!
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Hey, I was watching television the other night, and . . .


On Wed, 21 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> I delete every message that looks like it's going to be about movies
> or TV. No great effort.
> 
> -- Mike Resnick
> 

Guess you'll never see this then, hmm?  :)  I personally delete about 
2/3's of everything I receive in my mailbox, without reading it first.  I 
think you have to if you want to get anything done.  Of those 2/3's, 
television and movie-based notes in sf-lit DO get deleted an awful lot.  

sf-lit stands for Science-Fiction Literature, after all, and that why I 
subscribed to begin with; to read about SF.  

Joe DeRouen

/-----------------------------------------------------------------\
| Joe DeRouen           [log in to unmask]      Dallas, Texas USA   |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| Joe is a freelance writer with regular columns appearing in the |
| Dallas/Ft. Worth and Houston Computer Currents magazines.       |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| http://www.crl.com/~jderouen/index.html       BBS: 214/620-8793 |
\-----------------------------------------------------------------/


From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 21 15:10:46 1995
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Date: 	Wed, 21 Jun 1995 15:14:36 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re[2]: CLARKEAN MAGIC

     Arthur C. Clarke is in fact the source.
     
     Clarke's Third Law:
     "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from 
     magic."
      
     His first two laws, also quoted in the book "Profiles of the Future: 
     An Inquiry into the Limits of the Possible," (so my source says) are 
     as follows:
     
     Clarke's First Law:
     "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is 
     possible he is almost certainly right. When he states that something 
     is impossible, he is very probably wrong."
     
     Clarke's Second Law:
     "The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture 
     a little way past them into the impossible."
     
     Hope that helps,
     Andy


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: CLARKEAN MAGIC
Author:  [log in to unmask] at nylanr01
Date:    6/21/95 1:31 PM


Bob,
 I remembered that this same question came up a few months ago, so 
I checked in the SF-LIT archives (available via LC MARVEL, our gopher) 
and found that Eric A. Johnson located the source as OMNI, April 1980, P. 
87 and that the quote was:
     
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistingishable from magic" 
     
There are also some amusing variants on this quote in the same archives 
(sf-litlog.9403).  
Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT 
[log in to unmask]
     
     
On Wed, 21 Jun 1995, BOB S. wrote:
     
> I believe it was Arthur C. Clarke who wrote something like "any sufficiently 
> advance technology will appear to be magic." Does anyone know the actual
> quotation and the source? Thanks in advance. 
> 
     


From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 21 15:23:48 1995
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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:23:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: Roberta Johnson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: CLARKEAN MAGIC
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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>From Gale's Quotations CD ROM:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."  
Attributed to _The Lost Worlds of 2001_.

Roberta
On Wed, 21 Jun 1995, BOB S. wrote:

> I believe it was Arthur C. Clarke who wrote something like "any sufficiently
> advance technology will appear to be magic." Does anyone know the actual
> quotation and the source? Thanks in advance.
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 21 15:34:24 1995
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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 15:31:20 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 19th Cent. SF

In a message dated 95-06-21 14:17:09 EDT, you write:

> am presently in the process of editing a collection of pre-twentieth
>century SF to be used in high school classes.  I will also be creating
>learning activities to go with them.  I have a list of 13 titles presently (
>Wells, Hawthorne, Poe, Bierce, Voltaire's Micromegas, E.T. A Hoffman,
>Melville, Twain).  
>
>Any  suggestions re: other authors, titles.  THANKS!
>
>John Meluch
>
>

Perhaps Jules Verne?  In my oppinion he is just about the most famous author
of Pre-Twentieth Century Science Fiction there is.  For Example: Twenty
Thousand Leagues Under the Sea.

I hope this helps,

Eric Shivak

PS This is my first response to this list ::grins:: Feels great to be here!

From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 21 15:39:37 1995
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From: "Sandra Kisner" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: [log in to unmask]
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF thesaurus

Maybe what we need is the SF equivalent of the Stith Thompson folklore
motif index.  Any takers to put it all together?  ;-)

Sandra Kisner
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 21 16:41:04 1995
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Subject: 19th Cent. SF
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 S>I am presently in the process of editing a collection of
pre-twentieth
 S>century SF to be used in high school classes. 
<snip>.  

 S>Any  suggestions re: other authors, titles.  THANKS!

 S>John Meluch

Cyrano De Beserac's (or however it's spelt, you know the guy with the
nose) Voyage to the moon.  And of course Vern.

Tim Tulley



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Subject: Re: CLARKEAN MAGIC
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:43:12 +0100 (BST)
From: Andy Butler <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Colleen Stumbaugh" at Jun 21, 95 01:04:13 pm
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This goes back further than OMNI, April 1980, P. 87 :
 
 "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistingishable from magic" 


In Harold Faber's The Book of Laws the source is a quote from ACC in New 
Yorker Aug 9 1969, and it is Clarke's third law.

(First Law: If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something 
is possible, he is almost certainly right, but if he says that it is 
impossible, he is very probably wrong.

Second Law: The only way to find the limits of the possible is to go 
beyond them into the impossible.")

The third law also appears in a footnote to the 2nd edition of Profiles 
of the Future (1973, p. 39) and it probably predates this by some time.


Cheers

Andy Butler
Joint co-ordinator Academic Fantastic Fiction Network

English Department
University of Hull
Hull
UK

[log in to unmask]

"We drift down time, clutching at straws.  But what good's a brick to a 
drowning man?"





From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 21 22:32:19 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: decimal SF classification

>The entire classification scheme is 20-40 pages long. The first two 
>levels is all I'm willing to type in. If someone has a scanner and is 
>willing to make electronic copies for people I'm willing to make a 
>photocopy and mail it to them (I'd like an electronic copy myself).

>Michael Bowman

If the print is 12 point or larger, feel free to fax it to:
(800) 532-4037
Attention:Scott
and I'll be happy to change it to electronic format and e-mail or post
copies.
Scott Nelson
New [log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 21 22:35:05 1995
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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 22:35:04 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Written vs. films, TV etc.

In recent weeks I have noticed what seems to be a sort of snobbery among this
crowd: "I don't like fantasy", "I don't like talking about SF movies, TV,
etc.". For me SF is a medium without boundries, where anything is possible.
True, most SF movies and TV series tend to pander a bit too much to the
masses. But there are many SF movies out there that succeed in filling me
with the same wonder and facination that I recieve from the best written SF.
I would site 2001/2010 as an example. And if you are looking for a literary
bent, has anyone out there seen the film adaptation of Stanislaw Lem's
Solaris? The book was difficult to follow, and I'm not sure the movie was any
easier, but both  definately made you think, and for me that's the whole
purpose of science fiction. All great questions begin with the phrase, "What
if...?" What should it matter what medium the answer comes to us in?

Pete

From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 21 22:35:13 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 19th Cent. SF

Thanks J. Ronald.   I am editing a text for high school students.  Am
primarily looking for short stories.  J. Meluch

From [log in to unmask]  Wed Jun 21 22:51:35 1995
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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 21:50:29 -0600 (CST)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 19th Cent. SF
To: [log in to unmask]
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Suggestions for an anthology on pre-20th sf for high school classes:  
check out the new edition of Franklin's Future Perfect, just out from 
Rutgers UP. For 19th c. American sf at least, it's the standard
text.

Try to include at least one exerpt from one of the early feminist utopias.

Mike Levy

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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 07:31:43 -0300 (ADT)
From: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Clarkean Magic - Another Source
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I have a copy of Clarke's _Profiles of the Future: An Enquiry into the 
Limits of the Possible_, published in Toronto by Popular Library, and 
copyright 1977, and describing itself as the "latest revised edition". In 
a footnote to "Hazards of Prophecy: The Failure of Imagination", Clarke 
writes, "The French edition of this book rather surprised me by calling 
this ['But the only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to 
venture a little way past them into the impossible'] Clarke's Second Law 
... I accept the label, and have also formulated a Third: 'Any 
sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.' AS 
three laws were good enough for Newton, I have modestly decided to stop; 
there" (p39). This article also presents his First Law, which he explains 
as follows: "Too great a burden of knowledge can clog the wheels of 
imagination; I have tried to embody this fact of observation in Clarke's 
Law, which may be formulated as follows: 'When a distinguished but elderly 
scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly 
right. Whe he states that something is impossible, he is very probably 
wrong'" (p32).

*****************************************************************
patricia monk (dr)                              [log in to unmask]
                   "just visiting this planet"
*****************************************************************


On Wed, 21 Jun 1995, BOB S. wrote:

> I believe it was Arthur C. Clarke who wrote something like "any sufficiently
> advance technology will appear to be magic." Does anyone know the actual
> quotation and the source? Thanks in advance.
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 06:58:21 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Mostly Harmless
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 11:09:00 BST
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>That is what the 5th book in the HHGTTG series is, same as the title.
>Nowhere near the level of the first two, not even as good as the third or
>the fourth. Was ok mind candy, but not really funny and a very quick
>read. Is Adams sick of it, or just not as funny anymore? Or, or we just
>jaded and used to it?

I haven't read that one, but I've heard pretty much the same from everyone I 
know who has.  Personally I thought that all the books were greatly inferior 
to the original series - radio was just (I thought) a much more creative 
format for it.  (I really do think that - I'm not just a diehard purist!) 
 The first couple of books seemed OK as fun spinoffs.  At the time, in the 
UK at least, you couldn't move for HHG merchandise of one sort or another 
and it seems clear that the books initially came into existence as part of 
that wave rather than as particularly creative events in their own right. 
 The whole thing slid somewhat downhill after that.  The TV series didn't 
help, either.

I do wonder whether Adams is getting tired.  I thought the first Dirk Gently 
novel was the first truly original thing I'd seen from him for a very long 
time.  Nicely poised, understated, and full of bizarre things that really 
(you found out gradually) did belong there.  And the second was awful.  It 
begins to sound as if his interest has waned somewhat.  Maybe Mostly 
Harmless was just cranked out when he got the gas bill.

          Dave

From cstu  Thu Jun 22 08:18:26 1995
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From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Dewey Classification
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Here is the catalog record I found for the 1952 edition of Cameron's 
classification:

                            LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
  001  52-33139
  050  Z697.F3C3
  100  Cameron, Alastair Graham Walter, 1925-
  245  Fantasy classification system.
  250  [1st ed.]
  260  St. Vital, Manitoba, Canadian Science Fiction Association [1952]
  300  52 p. 29 cm.
  650  Classification--Books--Fantasy.

Since I am interested in working on the thesaurus, I am currently trying 
to retrieve this work to look at it.  I will let you know more when I get it.
Colleen
_________________________________________________________________________
Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian    [log in to unmask]
Library of Congress                                  (202) 707-4132
Washington, DC 20540-4861                       FAX: (202) 707-4142
These opinions are mine, Mine MINE!       
__________________________________________________________________________





From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 08:00:25 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: CLARKEAN MAGIC
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 12:44:00 BST
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>>From Gale's Quotations CD ROM:
>
>"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
>Attributed to _The Lost Worlds of 2001_.
>
>Roberta
>On Wed, 21 Jun 1995, BOB S. wrote:


I have a vague recollection that it came up in Report on Planet Three as 
well - can't decide how old that is, though it's certainly pretty ancient 
now, which is the main reason I'm not particularly sure about anything about 
it....  In fact I think that someone else might have suggested this as well 
last time this went round.  Generally, though,I'm sure the quote must be 
pre-1980 (I think that was the date of the OMNI ref. that was given).

Unhelpfully yours...

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 08:09:04 1995
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Subject: Re: 19th Cent. SF

Thanks, I have the Franklin work.  J. Meluch

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 08:14:13 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Written vs. films, TV etc.
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 13:12:00 BST
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[log in to unmask]:

[...]
>But there are many SF movies out there that succeed in filling me
>with the same wonder and facination that I recieve from the best written 
SF.
>I would site 2001/2010 as an example. And if you are looking for a literary
>bent, has anyone out there seen the film adaptation of Stanislaw Lem's
>Solaris? The book was difficult to follow, and I'm not sure the movie was 
any
>easier, but both  definately made you think, and for me that's the whole
>purpose of science fiction.

I don't see any possible argument against this.  Metropolis, Zardoz and 
Silent Running, for instance, use SF in their different ways to make their 
pretty strident political points.  Obviously there are arguments to be had, 
among those who are interested, as to how successful or appropriate any of 
these was, but it would seem neurotic to decide at the outset that they did 
not actually "qualify" in some way as purposeful SF.  It would be ludicrous, 
for another instance, to try to talk about the place of modern SF as a genre 
in the marketplace, printed or not, without acknowledging the MASSIVE 
influence, for better or worse, of Star Wars and its ilk.  As an extension 
of this it would be strange not to acknowledge those films and TV shows of 
lesser "quality" or "merit" (by whose standards, anyway?) by any broad 
distinction:  there is an awfully large number of these things about, and to 
an extent by that token they ARE modern SF.  We don't have to like that, but 
it would be senseless to ignore it wilfully.  It's all important, I'd say.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 09:26:19 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Mostly Harmless



> That is what the 5th book in the HHGTTG series is, same as the title. 
> Nowhere near the level of the first two, not even as good as the third or 
> the fourth. Was ok mind candy, but not really funny and a very quick 
> read. Is Adams sick of it, or just not as funny anymore? Or, or we just 
> jaded and used to it?

I truly believe that Mostly Harmless is the worst book in the series.  Yes,
it was a very quick read (even for me), and no, it wasn't funny at all, at least
not in the way that the original Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy was.

I suspect the real issue is whether he just did it for the quick money it would
generate.  I mean, I don't find a lot of things funny that I used to 10 or 15 
years ago, but if I went back and read HHGTTG, I'd still be laughing.  I just
don't think he is as funny anymore.  Unless of course, he didn't intend the
book to be funny.

On the other hand, I enjoyed the first Dirk Gently book, and it wasn't that 
funny.  I think Adams still writes good material, just not good Hitchhiker
material.

Joe Karpierz

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 09:37:31 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Science Fiction Literature and Email Load




> 
> Guess you'll never see this then, hmm?  :)  I personally delete about 
> 2/3's of everything I receive in my mailbox, without reading it first.  I 
> think you have to if you want to get anything done.  Of those 2/3's, 
> television and movie-based notes in sf-lit DO get deleted an awful lot.  

I tend to agree here.  Since I only have a work account, and generally only
read my email during work hours, I end up deleting a lot of stuff simply based
on the subject line, or at least a quick scan of the message.  And honestly, 
even though I watch some sf TV, most of the TV/Movie based messages from this
list get deleted.

> sf-lit stands for Science-Fiction Literature, after all, and that why I 
> subscribed to begin with; to read about SF.  

Exactly.  I was looking for a good forum for discussion about sf literature
that did not have wasted bandwidth with the flaming and sillyness (I think I
need a spellchecker there) that abounds on the usenet newsgroups.  Happily, I
have found it here.

Joe Karpierz

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 09:40:18 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: CLARKEAN MAGIC
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 14:39:15 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "BOB S." at Jun 21, 95 12:54:02 pm
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In the last mail BOB S. said:
> 
> I believe it was Arthur C. Clarke who wrote something like "any sufficiently
> advance technology will appear to be magic." Does anyone know the actual
> quotation and the source? Thanks in advance.
> 

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic'
Clarke's Third Law (PROFILES OF THE FUTURE, Gollancz 1974 P.39)
-- 
Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool
PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK
0151-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html

"Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight)

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 09:52:32 1995
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From: "EJUSERS" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Thu, 22 Jun 1995 08:52:35 EST
Subject:       Re: SF thesaurus
Priority: normal
X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>

Date sent:      Thu, 22 Jun 1995 07:08:44 -0400
Send reply to:  [log in to unmask]
From:           "Sandra Kisner" <[log in to unmask]>
To:             Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:        Re: SF thesaurus

>Maybe what we need is the SF equivalent of the Stith Thompson 
>folklore motif index.  Any takers to put it all together?  ;-)

>Sandra Kisner
>[log in to unmask]

There is a very extensive motif index in E.F. Bleiler's *Science-
Fiction: The Early Years*. --R.D. Mullen <[log in to unmask]>

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 09:55:23 1995
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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 09:55:22 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF thesaurus

Many years ago in my youth Syrcacuse University was doing a gathering of SCFI
lit. Still, transferred or what?
Martin

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 09:58:30 1995
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Date:         Thu, 22 Jun 95 09:17:31 EDT
From: Doug Kuiper <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Written vs. Films, TV, etc.
To: [log in to unmask]

This discussion has a familiar ring, something I'm sure most of us have
heard before.  It goes like this:

SF reader:  "I believe SF literature worhty of intensive study, discussion,
and attention."

Traditional Literary Response:  "We only discuss serious literature here,
not that prattle."

I think to dismiss an entire field of artistic endeavor as unworthy of even
being on this list smacks of intellectual snobbery.  Are many SF films
poorly done, pandering to the worst facets of human nature?  Yes.  Perhaps that
is worthy of discussion.  Why is the fine written work of SF authors so
poorly adapted to the screen?

Notably, there are also exceptions to the BAM BOOM KILL of many SF films and
programs.  They have been mentioned numerous times in this thread.  They are
worthy of discussion as literature because they have, at one time, been
written, and written well.

Quite possibly, no media have the ability to reach as many people as TV
and film.  What a tremendous opportunity to concentrate on improving the
quality of SF on TV and film, which would give millions of people a more
accurate perception of the fantastic writing that occurs in this field daily.
many millions of people a more accurate perception of the fantastic writing

Above and beyond that, the delete key is F9 on my keyboard, it takes
less than a second.

-doug
[log in to unmask]

From cstu  Thu Jun 22 14:27:10 1995
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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 14:27:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Written vs. Films, TV, etc. (fwd)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Date:         Thu, 22 Jun 95 09:17:31 EDT
From: Doug Kuiper <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Written vs. Films, TV, etc.

This discussion has a familiar ring, something I'm sure most of us have
heard before.  It goes like this:

SF reader:  "I believe SF literature worhty of intensive study, discussion,
and attention."

Traditional Literary Response:  "We only discuss serious literature here,
not that prattle."

I think to dismiss an entire field of artistic endeavor as unworthy of even
being on this list smacks of intellectual snobbery.  Are many SF films
poorly done, pandering to the worst facets of human nature?  Yes.  Perhaps that
is worthy of discussion.  Why is the fine written work of SF authors so
poorly adapted to the screen?

Notably, there are also exceptions to the BAM BOOM KILL of many SF films and
programs.  They have been mentioned numerous times in this thread.  They are
worthy of discussion as literature because they have, at one time, been
written, and written well.

Quite possibly, no media have the ability to reach as many people as TV
and film.  What a tremendous opportunity to concentrate on improving the
quality of SF on TV and film, which would give millions of people a more
accurate perception of the fantastic writing that occurs in this field daily.
many millions of people a more accurate perception of the fantastic writing

Above and beyond that, the delete key is F9 on my keyboard, it takes
less than a second.

-doug
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 10:01:57 1995
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From: "EJUSERS" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Thu, 22 Jun 1995 09:01:58 EST
Subject:       Re: 19th Cent. SF
Priority: normal
X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>

Date sent:      Thu, 22 Jun 1995 07:51:29 -0400
Send reply to:  [log in to unmask]
From:           [log in to unmask]
To:             Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:        Re: 19th Cent. SF

>Thanks J. Ronald.   I am editing a text for high school students.  Am
>primarily looking for short stories.  J. Meluch

Bleiler's *Science-Fiction: The Early Years* is the best source for 
your purpose, since it presents summaries of some 3000 stories 
(novels, novelettes, short stories) published befor 1930.
--R.D. Mullen <[log in to unmask]>

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 10:44:56 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 19th Cent. SF
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 15:01:21 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "[log in to unmask]" at Jun 21, 95 02:15:18 pm
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In the last mail [log in to unmask] said:
> 
> I am presently in the process of editing a collection of pre-twentieth
> century SF to be used in high school classes.  I will also be creating
> learning activities to go with them.  I have a list of 13 titles presently (
> Wells, Hawthorne, Poe, Bierce, Voltaire's Micromegas, E.T. A Hoffman,
> Melville, Twain).  
> 
> Any  suggestions re: other authors, titles.  THANKS!
> 
> John Meluch
> 
Are you using extracts? Try Mary Shelley THE LAST MAN; Richard Jefferies,
AFTER LONDON; Jack London; 

There's a good selection of discussions of precursors of SF in David Seed, ed.
ANTICIPATIONS (Liverpool University Press) [Commercial break]: and if you
can get hold of Sam Moskowitz, SCIENCE FICTION IN OLD SAN FRANCISCO vol 1
A HISTORY OF THE MOVEMENT FROM 1854 TO 1890 you should find some interesting
ideas there.

-- 
Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool
PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK
0151-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html

"Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight)

 
From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 11:40:50 1995
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Date:         Thu, 22 Jun 95 10:34:51 CDT
From: Laura Doyle <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: UIC Library of the Health Sciences
Subject:      Re: SF thesaurus
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:10:35 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]>

I am thinking definitely of a thesaurus, since it was discussed
originally as a resource for catalogers.  But a thesaurus can be
a very useful thing for many people.  I'm definitely not thinking
of a directory or catalogue -- that would imply listing of authors
or works, I think.  Maybe Classification.

I also think that SF should be regarded as "Speculative Fiction"
not purely science fiction, since I think fantasy & utopian lit
should be considered as well.
On Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:10:35 -0400 <[log in to unmask]> said:
>I have four thoughts on the creation of an SF Thesaurus:
>
>Is 'SF Thesaurus' the right name for this piece of work?  SF Catalogue?  SF
>Directory?  SF Classifications?  Thesaurus seems to imply an source for
>cross-referencing SF terminology.
>
>Consider using extended descriptions or definitions for each
>heading/sub-heading as might be required.  'Light Fantasy', for instance, is
>quite vague.  'Magic Conflict', however, is very concrete.
Definitely include scope notes.

>
>How would the catalogue's format be changed if it were to include other SF
>medias?  Film, Stage, Poetry, Music and others, while not written, are still
>valid SF genres.
I don't think there is any reason to exclude other media -- in fact, have
a category for media.  But media shouldn't affect subject analysis.

>How could such a catalogue be created to allow more access from a broader,
>non-SF community.  For instance, a child wanting to look up a story about a
>friendly dragon?  Or someone who wants to know more about the book behind the
>movie 2001?  (I know, a bit funny, and perhaps obvious, but it is late and I
>couldn't come up with anything better.)
This is what I mean when I say I don't think of it as a catalogue -- it
would not be a catalog of books.  There are sufficient indexes and
bibliographies of all sorts, not to mention library catalogs.  It should
be a classification / thesaurus of sf concepts.  These concept terms could
then be used to catalog, organize and otherwise sort books so that children
and adults could find books about friendly dragons or ball-throwing apes.


   Laura M. Doyle / [log in to unmask]
                 or  [log in to unmask]
"You don't call, you don't write, you don't send me
flowers.  You only forward email.  Sigh."  -- Beth
Braswell, personal email, 2/21/95

From cstu  Thu Jun 22 17:29:29 1995
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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 17:29:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF thesaurus
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Date:         Thu, 22 Jun 95 10:34:51 CDT
From: Laura Doyle <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: SF thesaurus

I am thinking definitely of a thesaurus, since it was discussed
originally as a resource for catalogers.  But a thesaurus can be
a very useful thing for many people.  I'm definitely not thinking
of a directory or catalogue -- that would imply listing of authors
or works, I think.  Maybe Classification.

I also think that SF should be regarded as "Speculative Fiction"
not purely science fiction, since I think fantasy & utopian lit
should be considered as well.
On Wed, 21 Jun 1995 14:10:35 -0400 <[log in to unmask]> said:
>I have four thoughts on the creation of an SF Thesaurus:
>
>Is 'SF Thesaurus' the right name for this piece of work?  SF Catalogue?  SF
>Directory?  SF Classifications?  Thesaurus seems to imply an source for
>cross-referencing SF terminology.
>
>Consider using extended descriptions or definitions for each
>heading/sub-heading as might be required.  'Light Fantasy', for instance, is
>quite vague.  'Magic Conflict', however, is very concrete.
Definitely include scope notes.

>
>How would the catalogue's format be changed if it were to include other SF
>medias?  Film, Stage, Poetry, Music and others, while not written, are still
>valid SF genres.
I don't think there is any reason to exclude other media -- in fact, have
a category for media.  But media shouldn't affect subject analysis.

>How could such a catalogue be created to allow more access from a broader,
>non-SF community.  For instance, a child wanting to look up a story about a
>friendly dragon?  Or someone who wants to know more about the book behind the
>movie 2001?  (I know, a bit funny, and perhaps obvious, but it is late and I
>couldn't come up with anything better.)
This is what I mean when I say I don't think of it as a catalogue -- it
would not be a catalog of books.  There are sufficient indexes and
bibliographies of all sorts, not to mention library catalogs.  It should
be a classification / thesaurus of sf concepts.  These concept terms could
then be used to catalog, organize and otherwise sort books so that children
and adults could find books about friendly dragons or ball-throwing apes.


   Laura M. Doyle / [log in to unmask]
                 or  [log in to unmask]
"You don't call, you don't write, you don't send me
flowers.  You only forward email.  Sigh."  -- Beth
Braswell, personal email, 2/21/95


From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 11:51:34 1995
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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 10:53:31 -0500
To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (George Nicholas)
Subject: 19th century sf

        De Bergerac has been suggested several times here. A wonderful
book, but given the current aggressiveness of the religious right in the
U.S.A., I wonder whether the part about lunar men wearing their penises
outside their pants and keeping their swords hidden (that is, valuing life
but being ashamed of death) would go over in a high school class. I can
hear the vulture wings of Ralph Reed swooping in for the kill.

        The grandaddy of all fiction in this line is Lucian's _True
History_, a wonderful travel satire written in the 2nd century A.D. There's
considerable scatological and sexual humor in it, as I recall, which means
it'll be ridiculously easy to get high school students to read it. Simply
forbid them to do so.

        Finally, question for the librarians among us. Isn't there a text
series devoted to publishing 19th century sf? I seem to recall green
bindings. . . . Garland Press, maybe it was.

George E. Nicholas                      [log in to unmask]
English Department                      (913)367-5340 xt. 2572
Benedictine College
Atchison KS 66002



From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 12:06:04 1995
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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 12:06:03 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: fantasy genres/Betty Rose...

>Back when I was a member of the Mythopoeic Society, someone came up with 
>the idea that there are three types of fantasy, each exemplified by the 
>Three Authors that the society centered on:
>J. R. R. Tolkien - Completely alternate universe; cf. Steven Brust.
>C. S. Lewis - Modern humans go to alternate universe; cf. Stephen R. 
>Donaldson (Covenant)
>Charles Williams - Alternate universe breaks in on modern world; cf. 
>"Urban fantasy"
What about situations when humans from our universe create the new universe
(SImak: "The Goblin Reservation" can be used as an example, although not very
accurate)



From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 12:12:23 1995
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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 12:12:22 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF in Other Media (was: o...

>You know my vote.  Anyone want to say anything about interactive media? 
> I seem to recall a Niven quote (off the box, I think) regarding the 
>Ringworld computer game, something like "I always felt that the next 
>Ringworld novel should be interactive..."
I haven't read ANY of the Ringworld novels.... :-( Shame on me.
As to the interactive media: SF and fantasy were there for about 5 years now.
Most of the quest-type games and AD&Ds (I am talking about good ones, not the
bash-them-up types) have an excellent storyline, and some of them have
parallel branching storylines. Take Monkey Island or Betrayal at Krondor...



From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 12:10:19 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: CLARKEAN MAGIC
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 17:07:00 BST
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Encoding: 25 TEXT
X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0


"Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>:

>In the last mail BOB S. said:
>>
>> I believe it was Arthur C. Clarke who wrote something like "any 
sufficiently
>> advance technology will appear to be magic." Does anyone know the actual
>> quotation and the source? Thanks in advance.
>>
>
>"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic'
>Clarke's Third Law (PROFILES OF THE FUTURE, Gollancz 1974 P.39)


I'm confused now (well, again...).  I just had a chance to snap a quick look 
at Report on Planet Three.  I didn't find the quote, though I do still 
suspect it's in there somewhere.  However, I think it said it was published 
in 1972 or 1973.  Curiously, if that's the case, it DOES contain a plug for 
"my book, "Profiles of the Future"".  How come, if that was 1974?  Answer - 
1974 wasn't the first edition, presumably, in which case the quote is older 
still.  Or I'm wrong about the date of Report..., in which case I'm wasting 
everyone's time again...

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 12:21:56 1995
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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 12:21:55 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Written vs. films, TV etc.

And what about The Twilight Zone ?
Contrary to what many people think, it is not just another ghost-story type
of a show, the episodes actually have a meaning... IMHO, it is an integral
part of all the SF and fantasy genre.


From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 15:55:01 1995
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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 15:54:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 19th Cent. SF
To: [log in to unmask]
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Someone, I think it was probably Sam Moskowitz, edited an anthology
of 19th century sf called SCIENCE FICTION BY GASLIGHT. I would think
there might be a dozen as-yet-unmentioned names in there.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 16:07:24 1995
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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 16:07:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc. (fwd)
To: [log in to unmask]
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No one is dismissing films and tv as being unworthy of study or interest.
I have a limited amount of time to spend online. I will pick and choose
what interests me, and I won't be forced, bullied, or shamed into reading
about subjects that don't interest me.

I write science fiction for a living. It's only natural that written sf
should appeal to me more than TV, which I don't write at all, or movies,
which I occasionally write and which every producer I've worked with
has explained to me must be "dumbed down" to a maximum of a 10-year-old
level.

I contribute, as best I can, to the written sf messages here. I am not
suggesting anyone else delete TV and movie messages. It's up to them,
just as my decision to do so is up to me. 

That said, I will freely admit that Roddenbury and Lucas have had
an enormous effect on science fiction. Where I work, it is appearent
primarily in endless Trekbooks and Wookiebooks that have virtually
killed the midlist and kept dozens of promising young writers off the
racks. If anyone would like to argue that this has been good for the
field, I'll be happy to oblige.

-- Mike Resnick

From eaj  Thu Jun 22 16:59:00 1995
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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 16:59:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Eric A. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATTENTION NON-US/CANADA/UK SF-LIT SUBSCRIBERS
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII


As the Library of Congress' Recommeding Officer for Science Fiction, I 
am supposed to insure that LC has a good collection of non-US/CANADIAN/UK 
science fiction--especially award winning titles.  As we have limited 
funds to purchase foreign SF, I am trying to acquire at least some of 
this material on exchange.  In order to start this exchange process, I 
have prepared two exchange offer lists of LC's SF duplicates (approximately 
500 titles).  If you think that you might be interested in setting up an 
SF exchange with LC, please email me directly ([log in to unmask]) and let me 
know.  And please send me your snail mail address so that I can send 
you the offer lists.  LC already has some good exchanges set up with science 
fiction clubs in Ukraine, Germany, Russia, and elsewhere.

PLEASE NOTE that LC is only interested in acquiring ORIGINAL SF published in 
your language.  We are NOT interested in acquiring US/CANADIAN/UK SF that has 
been translated from English (and possibly French) into your native 
language.  Potential partners in Australia/New Zealand are welcome to 
contact me if you can supply your local homegrown SF as opposed to 
reprints of US/CANADIAN/UK SF titles.

Anyone in the US, Canada, or UK who happens to read this message and is 
interested, I'm sorry but this exchange offer does NOT apply to you since LC 
is supposed to acquire SF published in the US/CANADA/UK more or less 
automatically.  Thanks for your attention.  EAJ



*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| Eric A. Johnson				|     *OPINIONS MINE*     |
| Senior Exchange Specialist (Baltics & CIS)	|			  |
| & Recommending Officer for Science Fiction	|  Voice:  (202) 707-9498 |
| Exchange & Gift Division (COLL/E&G/EES)	|  FAX:    (202) 707-2086 |
| Library of Congress, LM 632			|  Email:    [log in to unmask]  |
| Washington, DC  20540-4240  USA		|			  |
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

		"Reality is that which, when you stop 
		 believing in it, doesn't go away."

				Philip K. Dick, 1928-1982


From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 18:38:38 1995
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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 19:39:46 -0300 (ADT)
From: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: CLARKEAN MAGIC
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Davde 
If I was part of the confusion, I apologize. I thought you just needed 
_a_ citation, not the _first_ citation. I don't know whether this will help 
or not, but I also have a copy of the first Bantam paperback edition, 
published in 1964 ( a reprint of the 1963 Harper and Row edition), and 
the footnote with the discussion of the third law does not appear in 
that. So you don't have to go back further than that. Now if you could 
identify the particular French edition he refers to in the footnote, that 
would cut down the search area even further.  ;-)

*****************************************************************
patricia monk (dr)                              [log in to unmask]
                   "just visiting this planet"
*****************************************************************


On Thu, 22 Jun 1995, D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple wrote: 
> I'm confused now (well, again...).  I just had a chance to snap a quick look 
> at Report on Planet Three.  I didn't find the quote, though I do still 
> suspect it's in there somewhere.  However, I think it said it was published 
> in 1972 or 1973.  Curiously, if that's the case, it DOES contain a plug for 
> "my book, "Profiles of the Future"".  How come, if that was 1974?  Answer - 
> 1974 wasn't the first edition, presumably, in which case the quote is older 
> still.  Or I'm wrong about the date of Report..., in which case I'm wasting 
> everyone's time again...
>           Dave
>

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 18:58:25 1995
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Subject: Profiles of er, when was that?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 23:58:09 +0100 (BST)
From: Andy Butler <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" at Jun 22, 95 06:12:46 pm
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> "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>:
> {Snip!}
> (PROFILES OF THE FUTURE, Gollancz 1974 P.39)
> 
[Dave:]
> 
> I'm confused now (well, again...).  I just had a chance to snap a quick look 
> at Report on Planet Three.  I didn't find the quote, though I do still 
> suspect it's in there somewhere.  However, I think it said it was published 
> in 1972 or 1973.  Curiously, if that's the case, it DOES contain a plug for 
> "my book, "Profiles of the Future"".  How come, if that was 1974?  Answer - 
> 1974 wasn't the first edition, presumably, in which case the quote is older 
> still.  Or I'm wrong about the date of Report..., in which case I'm wasting 
> everyone's time again...
> 
>           Dave
> 

My (Corgi SF Collectors Library) edition of Planet 3 is dated 1973 
(actually a 75 reprint) with a Gollancz edition noted in 1972.  The 
intro, date January 1971, mentions Profiles of the Future (1963) and 
Voices From the Sky (1965).

My Pan edition of Profiles is a second edition 1973 (and copyrighted 
then, + 1962) with mention of a 1964 Pan edition, with an earlier 
Gollancz (1962 [sic]) edition.  Presumably Andy Sawyer quoted from a 
Gollancz hardback of the second edition.

The Third Law (on magic) is mentioned in a footnote on p 39, having 
referred to the French edition of Profiles.  Clarke says "[I] have also 
formulated a Third", with the implication that this would postdate the 
second, which was published in 1962 (in Profiles) but not designated as a 
law until the French edition.  I believe I cited it last night as being 
in 1969 in the New Yorker, otherwise it appears to have been formulated 
between 1962 and 1972.  Could it have been in Voices?  When was Lost 
Worlds of 2001?   

Does this help, Dave?  Is the message even getting through? (technology 
is indistinguishable from, well, a useless lump of metal)


Cheers

Andy Butler

English Department
University of Hull
Hull
UK

[log in to unmask]

"We drift down time, clutching at straws.  But what good's a brick to a 
drowning man?"

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 18:59:08 1995
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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 18:56:03 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Mostly Harmless

Oh, Mostly Harmless wasn't good, but it wasn't very bad either (maybe only in
comparison).  But I was wondering, Adams' endings/resolutions, that I can
think of, seldom made too much sense to me.  Do others have the same problem?
 (Off hand, I think of the Dirk Gently books, RATEOTU, and MH, but its been a
while since I've read them.)

Sean D.
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 21:33:09 1995
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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 21:33:08 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The Medium's the Thing

I find myself mostly agreeing with Mike Resnick and the
other "SF&F in literature preferred" cadre.  However, as
all too many people read only as much as they have to,
opting to have their entertainment and non-job-related
information spoon fed to them through the idiot box and
overpriced cinema, how else to reach them?  SF&F,
unlike horror {which, when lumped together with SF&F,
I find, well, horrifying} that appeals to the reptilian sense
of fear in us, beckons our highest aspirations.  Serious
frontal lobe fodder.  This is the area of that vast under-
developed resource, sometimes referred to as the human
mind, that must be stimulated.  Not just in the pre-
disposed {that includes folks like us, but you already knew
that because you are here} but in the public as a whole.

Consider this:  How could the best story you've ever read
possibly be made better?  One answer {mine} is to see it
actually come to pass.  And while the plausibility of this
ideal embraces only a small fraction of the speculative
fiction written, IMHO it's a handful worth the price.

I will put up with almost any number of SF&F bad ideas,
poor adoptions, sell-outs, over-writtens, under-writtens,
characterization-ignoreds, and, of course, the just plain
ludicrous on TV and in film if it will result in at least one
great inspiration for the public to experience.  Afterall, it
is they who rule the court of "public option", and upon
that which the political powers that be act {i.e. very soon
space stations will no longer just be a place where Heywood
Floyd stopped off to call his daughter and chat with some
Russians before heading off to check out that odd thing
they dug up on the moon.}


       -Phil "Not Ashamed to Have Used My VCR" Rosen 

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 22:21:36 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 19th Cent. SF

Asimov also, I believe, edited a 19th cenury Sci  Fi anthology.  I haven't
read it, but he had some interesting stories in a similar volume of Fantasy.

Sean D.
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 22:21:37 1995
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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 22:21:36 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, et...

Yes, film and TV have had tremendous effects (affects? never remember the
difference)  on sci fi.  However, very little (almost none)  of it I consider
good art.  SF film and TV (and maybe there is excellent work in less
mainstream markets being done that I am not aware of) is quite flawed.  Until
it reaches the level of art that some writing has achieved, I feel it is
mainly relevant in its relation to better quality work.

Sean D.
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 23:04:09 1995
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From: [log in to unmask] (Chris Terran)
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: SF Sites in the UK
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 03:36:51 +0100
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: BSFA
X-Mailer: Archimedes TTFN Version 0.36

I've just joined SF-LIT and read through the 1.3 Mb of May contributions,
and want to extend a warm delurking hello to all . . . .

As an introduction, I edit _Matrix_, the news zine of the British Science
Fiction Association. As is well known -- at least to writers -- all editors
are ignorant fools, so I hope you can help me overcome my disabilities
by responding to the following plea.

I'm currently compiling a list of locations in the UK with a significant sf
or fantasy connection, and any suggestions would be very welcome.

This is for a poster / map / directory that the BSFA is hoping to produce.
All contributions will be credited, of course.

I'm after both real places -- Minehead is the birthplace of Arthur C.
Clarke, for instance -- and imaginary -- perhaps the 'actual' location
of Mythago Wood. Particularly interesting would be locations used in
childrens' sf / fantasy, and sites in odd corners of these islands.

Here are a few to get you thinking:
 Corfe Castle (Keith Roberts's _Pavane_)
 Aller, Somerset ('Alder' in Kim Newman's _Jago_)
 Manchester (Jeff Noon, _Vurt_)
 Sark (Mervyn Peake, _Mr Pye_)
 Dorset (Chris Priest, _A Dream of Wessex_; Richard Cowper 'Kinship' novels)

Thanks . . . .

--

Chris Terran                       *******************************************
Email: [log in to unmask]      * Editor, 'Matrix' - The news magazine of *
Voice: 0113 278 2388               * The British Science Fiction Association *
Opinions mine ... mine, all mine!  *******************************************


From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 23:13:02 1995
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From: "John J. Ronald" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Twighlight Zone
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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On Thu, 22 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> And what about The Twilight Zone ?
> Contrary to what many people think, it is not just another ghost-story type
> of a show, the episodes actually have a meaning... IMHO, it is an integral
> part of all the SF and fantasy genre.

I *love* the Twighlight Zone!  Old stuff, and the newer episodes..
(never saw the movie, though)...I also miss the tv-spinoff
of Amazing Stories that Spielberg did awhile back...those
were great, too...Lots of very cool (and often, very twisted)
extrapolation-thinking goes into those episodes....yes,
this "extrapolation-engine" that drives The Twighlight
Zone also drives SF as well.  Good point, good point.
*high five*

--John Ronald
	Rice University


From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 23:58:37 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ClassificationScheme

MBowman,
     I would be willing to xlate the scheme to electronic medium, but I would
appreciate a little advice on how to distribute it efficiently. Thanks.
SMail addr: 13978 Arnold, Redford MI 48239 USA
Bob Pesavento
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 23:58:50 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
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Subject: Re: Television, gotta love it!

I read it.

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 23:59:04 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Written vs. films, TV etc.

This is a good point in general, but I specifically disagree with you about
2001.  The movie is slow-paced, often corny(especially in the part with the
guys in ape suits who are supposed to be early humans and look more like
mutated chimps), and in some ways behind its time.  The only good parts are
those involving HAL.

From [log in to unmask]  Thu Jun 22 23:59:42 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner

How does everyone feel about Bladerunner?  It has some good points, and great
sets and acting, but the voice-over is corny(even from Harrison Ford), and
the plot is rather bare-bones in nature.
This is a bit off the subject, but do you think that it would be possible and
feasible to depict netrunning(computer theft a la William Gibson) on the big
screen?  That is one of my favorite cyberpunk elements.

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 00:24:41 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF thesaurus-Difference between SF and Fantasy

I really wish people would stop grouping SF into ht efantasy category, and
vice versa.  There is a *big* difference.  SF takes place in a world more
technologically advanced than our own.  It is often, but not always, a
projection of our own future.  Some of the main categories include Space
Opera(romantic SF such as Star Wars) and cyberpunk(typified by Gibson's
gritty novels).  Fantasy, on the other hand, takes place in a world less
technologically advanced than our own.  It has its roots in medieval culture,
and epics such as beowulf. the classic examples are Lord of the Rings, which
is epic high fantasy, and the Conan stories, on a swords-and-sorcery level.

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 02:07:03 1995
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Date: Thu, 22 Jun 95 23:05:19 -700
Subject: CLARKEAN MAGIC
To: [log in to unmask]


I believe it was Arthur C. Clarke who wrote something like "any sufficiently
advance technology will appear to be magic." Does anyone know the actual
quotation and the source? Thanks in advance.
 
***************************************************************************  
I believe that was a quote from the character Richard Wakefield, probably from
Rama II originally, although he made similar statements in the later two books
of the series.

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 05:41:45 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc. (fwd)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 10:39:00 BST
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Mike Resnick:

>No one is dismissing films and tv as being unworthy of study or interest.
>I have a limited amount of time to spend online. I will pick and choose
>what interests me, and I won't be forced, bullied, or shamed into reading
>about subjects that don't interest me.

I hope that my suggestions, at least, don't come across as insistences that 
everyone participate in discussions in which they aren't interested. 
 Certainly I had no intention of doing any of that.  I think you're 
mistaken, though, about the idea that no one dismisses media outside print. 
 Personally I usually prefer reading to watching, but I can't handle the 
idea, which I often come across, that any "written" (sic) SF is, by its 
nature, somehow superior (by some standard or other) to anything that 
anyone's ever filmed.

On the other hand, it is depressingly easy to point out examples of film/TV 
SF that drag the whole genre down to enormous and inexplicably popular 
depths.  I bet more people saw StarGate than Shadowlands, and thought that 
it was great.  It's hard to understand why, but I do suspect that a crap SF 
film was more popular than a sensitive and beautiful 
"realistic"/biographical one.


>I write science fiction for a living. It's only natural that written sf
>should appeal to me more than TV, which I don't write at all, or movies,
>which I occasionally write and which every producer I've worked with
>has explained to me must be "dumbed down" to a maximum of a 10-year-old
>level.

I can believe that.  It isn't too hard to come up with counterexamples, but 
their comparative scarcity really just underlines the point.


>That said, I will freely admit that Roddenbury and Lucas have had
>an enormous effect on science fiction. Where I work, it is appearent
>primarily in endless Trekbooks and Wookiebooks that have virtually
>killed the midlist and kept dozens of promising young writers off the
>racks. If anyone would like to argue that this has been good for the
>field, I'll be happy to oblige.

I'd like to know more about this.  (I'm afraid I don't know what "the 
midlist" is, even.)  All the same, as far as I can remember it my main point 
earlier was simply to say that this kind of influence IS modern SF, in a 
meaningful way.  Maybe it shouldn't be, for all sorts of reasons. 
 Depressing, in any case, though, isn't it?

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 05:52:20 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: CLARKEAN MAGIC
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 10:51:00 BST
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Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]>:

>If I was part of the confusion, I apologize. I thought you just needed
>_a_ citation, not the _first_ citation. I don't know whether this will help 

>or not, but I also have a copy of the first Bantam paperback edition,
>published in 1964 ( a reprint of the 1963 Harper and Row edition), and
>the footnote with the discussion of the third law does not appear in
>that. So you don't have to go back further than that. Now if you could
>identify the particular French edition he refers to in the footnote, that
>would cut down the search area even further.  ;-)

The confusion is all of my making, I fear.  For one thing, the request for 
the ref. that started this off was not mine so I'm probably just muddying 
the waters.  I don't know, in fact, whether the origin is required or 
whether any page reference will do.  Still, it seemed interesting that the 
quote could be attributed to OMNI, 1980, when it seemed to several people 
that it must be substantially older than that.  My ignorance extends to the 
point where I have now become entirely lost, however.  Are you talking about 
a 1963/4 edition of Report..., or Profiles..., or what?!  Maybe you 
shouldn't answer that...

          Dave
From cstu  Fri Jun 23 07:41:22 1995
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 07:41:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF thesaurus-Difference between SF and Fantasy
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I must disagree with the statement below because I have read fiction that 
contains both these elements and I find the definitions too limiting.  
For a book that uses both elements, I cite Julian May's Pliocene series, 
which has advanced technology and magic.  Okay, if you believe in PSI, 
maybe you do not see it as magic, but it has fantasy elements to my 
mind.  To say these genre are easily dissernable and easily classified 
just does not ring true with what I have read.
Colleen
_________________________________________________________________________
Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian    [log in to unmask]
Library of Congress                                  (202) 707-4132
Washington, DC 20540-4861                       FAX: (202) 707-4142
These opinions are mine, Mine MINE!       
__________________________________________________________________________


On Fri, 23 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> I really wish people would stop grouping SF into ht efantasy category, and
> vice versa.  There is a *big* difference.  SF takes place in a world more
> technologically advanced than our own.  It is often, but not always, a
> projection of our own future.  Some of the main categories include Space
> Opera(romantic SF such as Star Wars) and cyberpunk(typified by Gibson's
> gritty novels).  Fantasy, on the other hand, takes place in a world less
> technologically advanced than our own.  It has its roots in medieval culture,
> and epics such as beowulf. the classic examples are Lord of the Rings, which
> is epic high fantasy, and the Conan stories, on a swords-and-sorcery level.
> 


From cstu  Fri Jun 23 07:41:22 1995
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 07:41:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF thesaurus-Difference between SF and Fantasy
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I must disagree with the statement below because I have read fiction that 
contains both these elements and I find the definitions too limiting.  
For a book that uses both elements, I cite Julian May's Pliocene series, 
which has advanced technology and magic.  Okay, if you believe in PSI, 
maybe you do not see it as magic, but it has fantasy elements to my 
mind.  To say these genre are easily dissernable and easily classified 
just does not ring true with what I have read.
Colleen
_________________________________________________________________________
Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian    [log in to unmask]
Library of Congress                                  (202) 707-4132
Washington, DC 20540-4861                       FAX: (202) 707-4142
These opinions are mine, Mine MINE!       
__________________________________________________________________________


On Fri, 23 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> I really wish people would stop grouping SF into ht efantasy category, and
> vice versa.  There is a *big* difference.  SF takes place in a world more
> technologically advanced than our own.  It is often, but not always, a
> projection of our own future.  Some of the main categories include Space
> Opera(romantic SF such as Star Wars) and cyberpunk(typified by Gibson's
> gritty novels).  Fantasy, on the other hand, takes place in a world less
> technologically advanced than our own.  It has its roots in medieval culture,
> and epics such as beowulf. the classic examples are Lord of the Rings, which
> is epic high fantasy, and the Conan stories, on a swords-and-sorcery level.
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 07:30:15 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, et...
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 12:28:00 BST
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>Yes, film and TV have had tremendous effects (affects? never remember the
>difference)  on sci fi.  However, very little (almost none)  of it I 
consider
>good art.  SF film and TV (and maybe there is excellent work in less
>mainstream markets being done that I am not aware of) is quite flawed. 
 Until
>it reaches the level of art that some writing has achieved, I feel it is
>mainly relevant in its relation to better quality work.


This is a sensible improvement on my repeated failures to express the idea 
properly.  Some of the stuff is good; most of it is rubbish; all the same, 
there is so MUCH of it that we'd be foolish to ignore it and its huge 
influence.  If we're interested in that side of things, that is.  A literary 
perspective need not be limited to the opportunity to express approval for 
stuff we like.  There's a good case to be made for the idea that you can't 
do that credibly in any case without putting that stuff in the context of 
the surrounding (often popular) rubbish.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 07:36:34 1995
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Date:         Fri, 23 Jun 95 07:33:49 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject:      Re: SF Sites in the UK
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 23 Jun 1995 06:59:49 -0400 from
 <[log in to unmask]>

Hi CHRIS!

WhataboutTales from the White Hart by Clarke?  I realize this may not
apply, tho.
       - Sean -

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 07:42:04 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Written vs. films, TV etc.
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 12:40:00 BST
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>This is a good point in general, but I specifically disagree with you about
>2001.  The movie is slow-paced, often corny(especially in the part with the
>guys in ape suits who are supposed to be early humans and look more like
>mutated chimps), and in some ways behind its time.  The only good parts are
>those involving HAL.


Let me get this right - the award-winning (it was, wasn't it?) makeup stuff 
with the apes was terrible, but the talking computer that has a type of 
consciousness that can be caused to "regress" (towards what, for God's 
sake?) was triffic.

The idea that certain types of computer are capable of trying to process 
conflicting instructions is interesting and was obviously important to the 
film's plot, but surely it isn't central to the Sentinel-type core story of 
what it's like to discover that you're being watched.  In fact I've always 
thought the bits with HAL were some of the less well-explained bits of the 
film.  The bit with the apes, on the other hand, is one of those sections 
which is absolutely crucial to the alien involvement in human history.

Then again, it must be admitted that it is very, well, "leisurely" paced...! 
 Until the last five minutes.  I presume that this was intentional, since 
the end is clearly meant to be disorientating.  It isn't always a 
comfortable shift, though.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 07:45:08 1995
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Subject: Italian SF
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 13:41:21 +0100 (BST)
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From: "fabriani lanfranco (sistemista) 4991-3936" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id:  <[log in to unmask]>




Following two or three pressing requests by E. A. Johnson, I send to
SF-LIT this list of novels and anthologies in italian language

History:
	The Science fiction appears in Italy in April 1952 on the pages 
of the magazine "Scienza Fantastica" and in October on the 
magazine "I Romanzi di Urania" that publishes translations of works 
by authors in english language.
	Only in 1957, the magazine "Oltre il cielo" begins to publish 
regularly italian authors, and it trys to establish a strong group of writers, 
someone still active.

        For an historycal background you can read:
        
        CURTONI Vittorio
             Le frontiere dell'ignoto. Venti anni di fantascienza 
        italiana.
             Nord


Today:
	The SF book market in Italy is little, and is formed basically 
by translations of works written in english language;
just two or three italian novel 
are published usually every year, generally by little publishers.

Prizes:
	The "Premio Italia" (Award Italy) is awarded by majority vote of 
a vast giury of members of the World SF Italy and fans during the annual 
convention of the fandom. 

This list:
	The list includes only the works that are easy to find. I haven't
included some important novels, by this time out ot press.
        
 
        ====================== cut here ==============================
        
        ALDANI Lino 
            Parabole per domani
                1987  Solfanelli
   	    
	    La Croce di ghiaccio
               1989  Perseo Libri	

        Aldani Lino : MALAGUTI Ugo
	    Pianeta Italia
	       1989 Perseo Libri
		  (Anthology of writers members of World SF Italia)
	 
        ALDANI Lino : PIEGAI Daniela 
            Nel Segno della luna bianca
                1985  Nord
        
	ALTOMARE Donato
	    La risata di Dio
		1989 Solfanelli        

	ARESI Paolo 
            Oberon l'avamposto tra i ghiacci
                1987  Nord
        
        BONSI Giovanna 
            La Brigata dell'apocalisse
                1992  Nord
        
        BRERA Paolo
             Dagmar la terrestre
                  1992 Perseo Libri
        
        CARACCIOLO Pietro
             Nel segno del serpente
                  1991 Nord

        CASTELLO Giancarlo
             Motore d'anime
                  1991 Perseo Libri
        
        CATANI Vittorio 
            Gli Universi di Moras
                1990  Mondadori Urania   (Premio Urania 1990)
        
        CERRINO Mariangela 
             L'Ultima terra oscura
                1989  Nord
        
             I Cieli dimenticati
                1992 Longanesi  Milano   
 
	     La via degli dei
		     Longanesi Milano

	DE TURRIS Gianfranco
	     L'altro volto della Luna
		     Solfanelli
		(Anthology)

        EVANGELISTI Valerio 
            Nicolas Eymeric, Inquisitore   (Premio Urania 1994)
                1994  Mondadori

	FASSIO Angela P.
	    Il segreto del sigillo
		      Nord

            Il segno dello sparviero
                      Nord		

        
        FILASTO' Nino
             La Proposta
             1992  Thea Due  (Longanesi)         (Premio Italia 1985)
        
        FORTE Franco 
            Gli Eretici di Zlatos
                1990  Nord
        
        GRASSO Francesco 
            Ai due lati del muro           (Premio Urania 1992)
                1992  Mondadori

        MALAGUTI Ugo
	    Storie d'ordinario infinito
		      Perseo Libri
		(Anthology)
        
        MARAFANTE Virginio 
            L'Insidia dei Kryan
                1979  Nord            (Premio Italia 1980)
        
            Luna di fuoco
                1991  Mondadori  Urania
        
        MENGHINI Luigi 
            Il Regno della nube
                1979  Nord            (Premio Italia 1980)
        
            Reazione a catena
                1977  Nord            (Premio Italia 1978)
        
            Iseneg!
                1990  Nord
        
             Il mio amico Stone
                  1986 Nord
        
             L'assedio
                  1981 Nord                (Premio Italia 1981)
        

        PENSANTE Marco 
            Il Sole non tramonta
                1986  Nord
        
        PESTRINIERO Renato 
            Il Nido al di la' dell'ombra
                1986  Solfanelli
        
            Sette accadimenti in Venezia
                1986  Solfanelli
        
            Le Torri dell'Eden
                1983  Fanucci
        
        PIEGAI Daniela 
            Parola di alieno
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From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 08:02:41 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 13:00:00 BST
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Encoding: 47 TEXT
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>How does everyone feel about Bladerunner?  It has some good points, and 
great
>sets and acting, but the voice-over is corny(even from Harrison Ford), and
>the plot is rather bare-bones in nature.

The voiceover has been a contentious thing for ever.  I've certainly heard 
all sorts of rumours insisting on the one hand that it was imposed and added 
as a nasty fix and everyone hated it (along with the happy ending, which 
surely is the big, jarring and difficult to explain inconsistency), or, on 
the other that it was /always/ meant to be there and everyone's got the 
whole thing out of all proportion.  Personally I quite liked it when the 
thing came out.  When it became a big issue I got all confused.  Much of the 
opposition to it seems to be stimulated by the idea that it was a crap 
addition.  I don't believe that it can have been exactly that.  For instance 
the introductory scene ("sushi" etc) not only makes more (ie some) sense 
with the voiceover but seems all empty and unbalanced without it.  Seems to 
me it must have been written into that scene and others from the outset. 
 Some disagree.

But the style, the /style/....


>This is a bit off the subject, but do you think that it would be possible 
and
>feasible to depict netrunning(computer theft a la William Gibson) on the 
big
>screen?  That is one of my favorite cyberpunk elements.

Unless I've misread the reviews again, this has just been done in Johnny 
Mnemonic.  Generally the reaction seems negative.  Then again this is partly 
because all the reaction I've seen to the film as a whole is negative 
anyway.  A number of people are complaining that the film has bastardised 
Gibson's original story and simultaneously prostituted his vision of the 
future in general and "cyberspace" in particular.  One thing that gets 
raised in this context is a scene where Johnny is apparently using some kind 
of VR-type interface to break in and do something or other on the net.  Some 
of the less imaginative objections are based on the idea that cyberspace 
doesn't look right...  Anyway, it seems it has been done and some people 
don't like it.  It's worth bearing in mind, if seeing this, that Gibson was 
apparently intimately associated with all elements of its making, and also 
that they were kind of forced to make the 30-million-dollar glitzy film they 
made rather than the 1 1/2-million-dollar film noir they initially wanted to 
do.  In general the consensus seems to be that the Sprawl was not translated 
well from page to screen.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 09:03:14 1995
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 09:03:14 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner

Always thought Bladerunner great. Hope the sequeal is half as good.
Bladerunner is one of the few films expandeded and put onto disk. Never ran
across it or had a chance to view. Anyone have the opportunity?


From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 09:47:40 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: SF vs. Fantasy

About the difference between SF & Fantasy (and the poster who's annoyed that 
the two are so often conflated):

SF is not necessarily set in a future world, or a technologically superior 
one. Alternate Histories are SF, and most of them don't feature superior 
technology. The definition of SF that I like (because it's broad enough to 
cover everything we generally agree is SF) is that SF is literature dealing 
with a world differing from our own in a way that can be (or explicitly is) 
explained scientifically. Fantasy is a closely related genre (or the larger 
category of which SF is a subgenre, if you prefer) in which the fictional 
world is different from our own in a way which is explained non-
scientifically. The obvious argument or problem is in defining 'scientific,' 
which I won't attempt to do.

But you can see how closely related the two fields are at their core; both 
are in opposition to mainstream realistic fiction. The fact that one has 
spaceships and the other unicorns may be of supreme importance to the hard SF 
purist who detests unicorns, but the critical strategies of examining the two 
fields are very similar.

For a second reason, they are basically the same marketing category because 
it's basically the same audience that buys both genres. Most SF readers also 
read fantasy, and vice versa, at least on occasion. And authors are also very 
likely to cross the 'boundaries,' or write works that draw on the traditions 
of both fields.

Trying to examine one while ignoring the other gives a distorted view of 
things (as does the other common strategy of ignoring all proto-SF and 
pretending the idea sprang full-grown from the brow of Hugo Gernsback), and 
that's why it's bad.


Andy Wheeler

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 09:49:22 1995
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Date: 23 Jun 1995 09:48:09 EST
Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
From: "CHRISTINE T CALLAHAN" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE SF AND FANTASY DIFFERENCES
To: [log in to unmask]
Comment: RE SF AND FANTASY DIFFERENCES

  A poster provided a definition of SF as taking place in  a more 
technologically advanced world than ours  and fantasy as being in 
a  medieval or  epic setting.  I  would  agree  that probably the 
majority of fantasy falls into  this definition, but  what  about 
James Morrow's "Towing Jehovah", currently a Hugo nominee? Or his 
"Only  Begotten Daughter"? I'd certainly consider  them  fantasy, 
but the setting in both is basically our time and place. Same for 
Nancy Springer's novel  "Larque  on  the  Wing".  And  the  whole 
subgenre  of   urban  fantasy,  which  may   have  elements  from 
"standard" fantasy such  as  some version of elves and magic, but 
the  setting  is  very definitely late-20th  century  Earth,  not 
medieval or epic. (Emma Bull comes to mind as  a prominent writer 
in this area). I think we need some redefining of the genres. And 
I do agree that SF and fantasy (as in "fantasy is what I point at 
when  I  say  it",  as opposed  to  the all-compassing "fantastic 
literature" literary definition) ought to be considered different 
genres. This  may  or  may  not  be  due  to  my personal general 
preference for  SF;  no doubt a  lot  of fantasy-preferrers would 
also like  to  keep them distinct--if nothing else  it  helps  in 
selecting the preferred literature and avoiding the non-preferred 
more easily˙ :-) 
     Chris Callahan                                               

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 09:50:33 1995
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 09:47:27 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: The first SF

I was taught in college that the first SF ever written that we know of was
committed to print in the second century BC. It was a Greek story dealing
with a sailing ship that made it over the edge of the world and found an
alien race there. It is fantasy to us now, but then it was pure SF, based on
known facts of science at the time with a dose of "what if."

=====
Brenda Daverin
[log in to unmask]
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K+ W-- M+$ !V -po+ Y+ t+ 5+ j++ R G' tv+ b+++ !D B- e+ u** h---+ f+ r@ n@ x* 

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 11:25:55 1995
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 08:23:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Wallace <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Fantasy v. SF
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Fri, 23 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> 
> I really wish people would stop grouping SF into ht efantasy category, and
> vice versa.  There is a *big* difference.  SF takes place in a world more
> technologically advanced than our own.  It is often, but not always, a
> projection of our own future.  Some of the main categories include Space
> Opera(romantic SF such as Star Wars) and cyberpunk(typified by Gibson's
> gritty novels).  Fantasy, on the other hand, takes place in a world less
> technologically advanced than our own.  It has its roots in medieval culture,
> and epics such as beowulf. the classic examples are Lord of the Rings, which
> is epic high fantasy, and the Conan stories, on a swords-and-sorcery level.
> 

I consider this to be an oversimplification.  Consider, for example, 
Wolfe's _Book of the New Sun_ (or Jack Vance's _Dying Earth_); Melissa 
Scott's alchemists-in-space trilogy (_Twelve Fifths of Heaven_ etc.), or 
even some of Steven Brust's works.  

For me, IMHO, AFAIK, and all those other disclaimers, the split between 
SF and fantasy is twofold:

1) Magic v. technology.  Can _anyone_ learn to manipulate the universal 
forces, (technology; science = repeatable experiments), or does it 
require an inborn talent (magic)

2) Politics. Is the basis of rule attainable by anyone (vox populi; SF) 
or, again, does it require an inborn mandate (divine right; fantasy).

You will, of course, perceive that the two are related.

But, this does not address the poster's original complaint, the lumping 
together of SF and Fantasy.  Why not? (Especially if SF=_speculative_ 
fiction).  If you don't care to read one or the other, fine; but, if for 
no other reason than current marketing practices (I'm sure Messers 
Resnick, Effinger, etc. can speak to this), SF and fantasy are linked in 
the public mind, for better or worst.  Certainly they both have a place 
on this list.

regards,

jim wallace
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 11:30:45 1995
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From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF AND FANTASY DIFFERENCES


Another problem with trying to distinguish fantasy and SF are all
the books that fall into the fuzzy region in between.  The Pern
and Darkover books are the most commonly offered examples, but
more recently there were Rosemary Kirstein's "Steerswoman" books,
C.S. Friedman's _Black Sun Rising_, C.J. Cherryh's Merovingen
anthologies, etc.  How about Tanith Lee's _The Birthgrave_, a
Red Sonja-style heroic fantasy until the very end, when all of a
sudden you find out it's science fiction after all?  Or Piers
Anthony's _Incarnations of Immortality_ series, which are actually
set in our future, but are still full of magic?  I think F and SF
overlap a lot more than hard-core fans of either genre would care
to admit.

Marina Frants
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 11:36:05 1995
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Date:         Fri, 23 Jun 95 10:29:45 CDT
From: Laura Doyle <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      thesaurus
To: SF-Lit <[log in to unmask]>

I have cobbled a few of these terms together into the beginnings of a
hierarchical "tree" structure (subject organization).  This is available
at

     http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/sf/sf.thesaurus

This is VERY rudimentary and is extracted from the also-rudimentary
thesaurus I had been working on for feminist themes in speculative
fiction.  (That is at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/sf/femsf.thesaurus
so if you had been looking at that, please start looking at the new
thing.)  PLEASE send comments to me and I'll incorporate them, and
maybe we can get a working idea of what we're all thinking about, and
proceed from there.


   Laura M. Doyle / [log in to unmask]
                 or  [log in to unmask]
"You don't call, you don't write, you don't send me
flowers.  You only forward email.  Sigh."  -- Beth
Braswell, personal email, 2/21/95

From cstu  Fri Jun 23 12:12:02 1995
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:12:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: thesaurus
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Date:         Fri, 23 Jun 95 10:29:45 CDT
From: Laura Doyle <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      thesaurus

I have cobbled a few of these terms together into the beginnings of a
hierarchical "tree" structure (subject organization).  This is available
at

     http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/sf/sf.thesaurus

This is VERY rudimentary and is extracted from the also-rudimentary
thesaurus I had been working on for feminist themes in speculative
fiction.  (That is at http://www.uic.edu/~lauramd/sf/femsf.thesaurus
so if you had been looking at that, please start looking at the new
thing.)  PLEASE send comments to me and I'll incorporate them, and
maybe we can get a working idea of what we're all thinking about, and
proceed from there.


   Laura M. Doyle / [log in to unmask]
                 or  [log in to unmask]
"You don't call, you don't write, you don't send me
flowers.  You only forward email.  Sigh."  -- Beth
Braswell, personal email, 2/21/95


From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 12:00:02 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Ed McKnight)
Subject: Re: Blade Runner Voiceover

On June 22 [log in to unmask] asked for opinions of BLADE RUNNER, mentioning the
"corny" voiceover as one problem with the film.  I try to bear in mind that
after reading the screenplay Philip Dick wrote "It was terrific.  It bore no
relation to the book" [Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep].  Viewed, then,
as a self-contained work of art rather than as a screen adaptation of the
novel, I found it very interesting, both visually and in terms of its
(Christian? Nietzschean?) symbolism.  In my first few viewings I regarded
the voiceover as deliberately inappropriate/insensitive to the story on the
screen.  Rick Deckard is clearly not intended to be the "hero" of the film
in any traditional sense, and it seemed obvious to me that the voiceover was
not to be granted any kind of interpretative authority.  The voiceover after
Batty's death is that of a confused individual trying to make sense of
something (empathy from an android) that the viewer has already properly
understood.  Of course Ridley Scott later released a "Director's Cut"
without the voiceover, and it is now my understanding that he was compelled
to include the voiceover by studio executives who didn't understand what was
happening on screen without it, so my earlier interpretation of the
voiceover as a deliberate artistic decision is apparently invalid.
Nevertheless, it was prompted by the overall excellence of the film.  When
the reader believes that an artist knows what he or she is doing then the
reader will attribute meaning even to the artist's mistakes (something that
is as true of Shakespeare as Ridley Scott).

    

Ed McKnight       -        [log in to unmask]

<><><><><><><><><><><><><>
 "Due to the convergence of forces beyond 
  his comprehension, Salvatore Guanucci 
  was squirted out of the universe like a 
  watermelon seed and never heard from again"    
                                                                            
                                  <><><><><><><><><><><><><>


From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 12:01:51 1995
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:01:50 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: written vs. films

Dear Mike Resnick..

Charles McCarry's new novel SHELLEY'S HEART  while not science fiction could
be
"grabbed" for "us" since it does occur a few years in the future. Excellent
Washington-political
novel incidently.

On page 207 the following:

"On the northward flight from Santiago to Washington...."

This made me smile. I've read just about everyting by both you and McCarry
and 
enjoyed most everything. However, I do wish you would get back to SANTIAGO!

I just signed on the SciFi list server. AT 66 I've some 55 years of SciFi in
my heart and head.
I'm currently obsessing on Connie Willis and Dave Wingrove. I work part time
in a six chain
privately owner book store here in Myrtle Beach. I regularily attack
customers in the SciFi
section with  these two authors...When one is my age one  can get away with a
lot.  I have so
much fun I tell people I'm in charge of entertainment.


I don't agree that the Trekbooks and Wookiebooks have killed the midlist. I
remember what
was on the shelves in the bookstores 30 years ago when I worked Doubleday on
53rd Street
in   NYC. There is no comparison with the volume of science fiction today and
the movies and
the TV are responsible for the jump start. There is also a lot of writing
passing through the
internet...more than I can handle, but the good stuff will surface. Get the
kids to read and most
of them will eventually read what I like.

I'm  convinced that what I have seen in literature over the past five years
or so is that, on the
avarage, the best writing is being done in the field of science fiction and
it is being done by
women. Julian May, Connie Willis, Nancy Kress, M. K. Wren (Gift Upon the
Shore),
to mention a few.

Best  wishes

Martin

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 12:05:47 1995
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:05:47 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner

In a message dated 95-06-23 07:34:21 EDT, you write:

>How does everyone feel about Bladerunner?  It has some good points, and
great
>sets and acting, but the voice-over is corny(even from Harrison Ford), and
>the plot is rather bare-bones in nature.
>This is a bit off the subject, but do you think that it would be possible
and
>feasible to depict netrunning(computer theft a la William Gibson) on the big
>screen?  That is one of my favorite cyberpunk elements.
>
>

There is a directors cut version of Bladerunner out there.  NO voice over,
different ending.   This is the way the story was supposed to go according to
the original script but the director was overuled by the studio because it
wasn't going over well in the screen testing.

There are at least two films out there that depict the net fairly well, the
first is Lawnmower man and the second is Johnny Mnemonic (sp?), as films they
are fair at best, but the Net scenes in each are FANTASTIC!

Eric

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 12:12:03 1995
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 11:11:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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In terms of JOHNNY MNEMONIC, my wife and I thought the plot of the film 
had little substance as a mediocre TNG episode (:::ducking 
brickbats:::).  While we're aware that the original short story (as well 
as NEUROMANCER itself, which we just ordered from the Science Fiction 
Book Club!) may have had more "meat" to it, we just thought the movie 
relied much too much upon the glitzy effects of cyberspace than telling a 
good story.

As for the sfx, TRON was much better in that category.  But I could be 
wrong!   ;D


Gary L. Warren


On Fri, 23 Jun 1995, D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple wrote:

> 
> >How does everyone feel about Bladerunner?  It has some good points, and 
> great
> >sets and acting, but the voice-over is corny(even from Harrison Ford), and
> >the plot is rather bare-bones in nature.
> 
> The voiceover has been a contentious thing for ever.  I've certainly heard 
> all sorts of rumours insisting on the one hand that it was imposed and added 
> as a nasty fix and everyone hated it (along with the happy ending, which 
> surely is the big, jarring and difficult to explain inconsistency), or, on 
> the other that it was /always/ meant to be there and everyone's got the 
> whole thing out of all proportion.  Personally I quite liked it when the 
> thing came out.  When it became a big issue I got all confused.  Much of the 
> opposition to it seems to be stimulated by the idea that it was a crap 
> addition.  I don't believe that it can have been exactly that.  For instance 
> the introductory scene ("sushi" etc) not only makes more (ie some) sense 
> with the voiceover but seems all empty and unbalanced without it.  Seems to 
> me it must have been written into that scene and others from the outset. 
>  Some disagree.
> 
> But the style, the /style/....
> 
> 
> >This is a bit off the subject, but do you think that it would be possible 
> and
> >feasible to depict netrunning(computer theft a la William Gibson) on the 
> big
> >screen?  That is one of my favorite cyberpunk elements.
> 
> Unless I've misread the reviews again, this has just been done in Johnny 
> Mnemonic.  Generally the reaction seems negative.  Then again this is partly 
> because all the reaction I've seen to the film as a whole is negative 
> anyway.  A number of people are complaining that the film has bastardised 
> Gibson's original story and simultaneously prostituted his vision of the 
> future in general and "cyberspace" in particular.  One thing that gets 
> raised in this context is a scene where Johnny is apparently using some kind 
> of VR-type interface to break in and do something or other on the net.  Some 
> of the less imaginative objections are based on the idea that cyberspace 
> doesn't look right...  Anyway, it seems it has been done and some people 
> don't like it.  It's worth bearing in mind, if seeing this, that Gibson was 
> apparently intimately associated with all elements of its making, and also 
> that they were kind of forced to make the 30-million-dollar glitzy film they 
> made rather than the 1 1/2-million-dollar film noir they initially wanted to 
> do.  In general the consensus seems to be that the Sprawl was not translated 
> well from page to screen.
> 
>           Dave
> 
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 12:27:36 1995
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Date:         Fri, 23 Jun 95 12:18:09 EDT
From: Sean Alan Wallace <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: SF AND FANTASY DIFFERENCES
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 23 Jun 1995 11:40:39 -0400 from <[log in to unmask]>


The discussion between science fiction and fantasy comes down to how
fantasy is viewed as. A few decades ago, fantasy as a general term
could be used to describe all fiction, and vice versa. In my own
experience, that general term fantasy CAN BE used for describing
science fiction, in that it is fiction. Romance is fantasy, mystery
is fantasy, fiction is fantasy. Science fiction, romance, mystery,
are subdivions of fiction/fantasy. The problem is that somehow,
the connotation of fantasy changed over the decades (I don't know
when exactly) and therein lies the problem. Somehow, the reader's needed
a specific term to separate a genre, especially when Tolkien burst upon
the scene; he wasn't sf, wasn't mystery, but was fiction. At that point,
fantasy as a separate genre took hold, I should think. Nowadays, I tend
to use fantasy as a separate genre, but logically, when I think about
it, all fiction is fantasy. I can't say that there is a difference
between science fiction and fantasy, in that people tend to percieve
their own definition of what fantasy is, or stands for.

Does this make sense at all, or am I rambling ;-)

                                                        - Sean -

P.S. just bought Marion Zimmer Bradley's SWORD AND SORCERESS #12...
excellent FICTIONAL stories...can't recommend it enough...tho, the
cover art could need some help.

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 12:47:26 1995
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:47:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: written vs. films
To: [log in to unmask]
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Martin:

>> "I do wish you would get back to SANTIAGO." <<

I -wrote- SANTIAGO. Why would I want to get back to it. Movies may
produce endless sequels; authors don't have to.

What was in print 30 years ago may have been better than what's out today,
or it may have been worse, but it was unquestionably poorer-paying and
less numerous, and has no meaning when speaking of today's midlist.
For example, I sold Lancer one of the -two- original sf novels it published
in 1969. Today we have 8 publishers all doing 4 or 5 sf novels a month,
and perhaps 40 more doing 2 to 10 a year. Bob Silverberg got the highest advance in sf history in
1971 when Ballantine paid him $12,500 for a book. The world, and our
microcosm, have changed. By the mid-1980s, the "midlist" consisted
of perhaps 50 writers who had broken into print, established a following,
but weren't yet "lead" writers; as such, they could make a living while
honing their craft and adding to their audience. This is no longer
the case; today you're either a bottom-of-the-barrel author or a leader...
all the other slots are taken up by endless Trekbooks, Wookiebooks, and
sharecrop books (i.e., Isaac's Robot City, etc.). 

I put it to you that nobody ever learned to write by selling Trekbooks.
For one thing, no character is allowed to change and grow from his
experiences; they all have to end the books exactly as they began them.
Further, telling 2nd-hand stories in 3rd-hand universes is hardly the
way to stimulate creativity. I think that, far from molding authors to move over to general sf, the mediabooks are probably
stifling a number of authors who may have had talent once, but no longer
can hack it outside that very limited field.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 12:55:11 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Mostly Harmless

They aren't supposed to make much sense.  How much sense they make is at
times inversely proportional to how funny they are, which is one of the
reasons that Adams is so marvelously hilarious.

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 12:55:22 1995
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:55:22 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF vs. Fantasy

Could you tell me more about those "Alternate Histories" you were referring
to?  They seem to be the lone exception.

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 12:55:27 1995
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:55:27 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: RE SF AND FANTASY DIFFERENCES

Okay, I screwed up a little.  Some modern, but supernaturally enhanced
settings, such as those of ghost stories, can be considered fantasy.  They
should *not* be thought of as SF, though, so my distinction remains.

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 12:55:37 1995
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:55:37 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fantasy v. SF

I agree that both have a place on this list, and I agree with your point 1.
 However, there are some fantasy realms that are governed by a primitive form
of democracy; similarly, many SF settings involve despotism and divine right.

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 12:55:42 1995
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 12:55:42 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF AND FANTASY DIFFERENCES

In referrence to Piers Anthony, I would say that the majority of his work is
SF.  When both magic and futuristic technology are present, I tend to lean
towards the SF designation.

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 12:57:25 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: Serge Berezhnoy <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: 19th Cent. SF
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 20:53:42 +0300


Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

 > Verne, Shelley, De Bergerac, perhaps? :-)

Well, but Cyrano de Bergerac lived in 17th Century... Not too late for science 
fiction? Maybe, Rables will be acceptable too?

Serge Berezhnoy

... Welcome Here! (Hangman's oldest joke)
--- GoldED 2.50.Beta5+
 * Origin: Camelot-89. Voice call (812)-310-6007 (2:5030/207.2)




From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 13:00:16 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 17:59:00 BST
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Eric, [log in to unmask]:

>There is a directors cut version of Bladerunner out there.  NO voice over,
>different ending.   This is the way the story was supposed to go according 
to
>the original script but the director was overuled by the studio because it
>wasn't going over well in the screen testing.


I've a suspicion, very likely wrong, of course, that the matter isn't that 
simple.  My vague recollection is that this "Director's Cut" was, even then, 
not actually what Ridley Scott had had in mind.  I'll try to find some stuff 
that I think I have on this.  May be thinking of a totally different 
"Director's Cut", of course.  Or just making it up.  Pretty sure, though, 
that I have an account of what this cut actually IS, which indicates that 
it's still not understood to be the "definitive thing".  I'll root around...

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 13:05:52 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 16:21:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: UK SF Sites
X-Genie-Id: 7617074
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

Chris, I just re-read WAR OF THE WORLDS to prepare for a short story I
wrote.  I'd like to see all the locations therein on a map.
 
You've got a big job ahead of you.  At last count, there are over a billion
and a half SF books set in the UK, written by British and foreign authors.
If you're not careful, your map will be solid black with dots, particularly
around London, I imagine.
 
George Alec Effinger

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 13:05:52 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 16:21:00 UTC
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Defining SF/Fantasy
X-Genie-Id: 8227757
X-Genie-From: G.EFFINGER2

To the person who claimed that SF is set in a world more technologically
advanced than ours, while fantasy is less technologically advanced, I have
to say that this is a simplistic generalization, and just plain wrong.
There are examples of modern SF that is set in a less technological world
(the subgenre of steampunk, for example), as well as fantasy that takes
place in what would otherwise be a higher-tech futuristic setting (I myself
have written a fantasy story about supernatural critters aboard a generation
starship).
 
People ought to stop defining things, say I.  It's just another way of
pushing pins through butterflies and mounting them in cases.  The
butterflies are prettier when they're alive.
 
George Alec Effinger
 
PS: Oh, on another topic entirely, while I enjoyed "The Twilight Zone," I
have come to realize how poverty-stricken the stories are.  Most of the
plots consist of an individual with but one principal--and unpleasant--
character trait.  This person is put in a situation in which that trait gets
him into trouble, and the story usually ends with him trapped in a horrible
fate, having learned An Important Lesson, sadly Too Late.  Too didactic by
half.

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 13:15:55 1995
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From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: written vs. films

I too, was going to take exception to the claim that Trek and Wookiebooks
(I love that term!) have driven out the midlist, but then I realized that
in this one case one did have to make a distinction between SF and fantasy.
There's not much of a SF midlist these days.  Fantasy, on the other hand,
has a huge midlist, probably because there has never been a fantasy
equivalent of Star Trek or Star Wars.  (Yeah, there's all those game-based
books, but they haven't had quite the same impact, thank God.)

Mike, if writing about borrowed characters in borrowed settings is
so stifling to creativity, why are you so excited about writing a
Sherlock Holmes story in another writer's style?

Marina Frants
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 13:43:09 1995
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From: "DENNIS ABBLITT UNBSJ" <[log in to unmask]>
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To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Fri, 23 Jun 1995 14:42:41 ADT
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Subject:       SF v. Fantasy
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      I see two problems with all of this discussion on the 
difference between sf and fantasy. 

      1) Most people seem to try to make each work inclusively one or 
the other. Frequently there are elements of both as well as other 
genres in each work. 

      2) There are too many concrete or descriptively specific 
definitions e.g. technological, scientific, magic, mediaeval. 
Personally, I like the definition, which I vaguely recall comes from 
one of the academic SF authors (maybe it was Jack Williamson, Jim 
Gunn, Lloyd Biggle or even Ike Asimov) during the late 60's or early 
70"s. Science fiction is the literature of the probable, fantasy the 
literature of the improbable and supernatural the literature of 
the impossible (or maybe it was the other way round).

                        Dennis. (Abblitt)
                        Ward Chipman Library
                        U.N.B.S.J. 

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 14:25:14 1995
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From: "CHRISTINE T CALLAHAN" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: BLADERUNNER
To: [log in to unmask]
Comment: BLADERUNNER

 On  the  subject  of   the  voice-over  and  "happy  ending"  of 
BLADERUNNER--the director's cut, released in theaters a  few yrs. 
ago (and now  on video) does not have the voiceover, ends at  the 
elevator, and from what I've read, has  a  few bits restored that 
had  been  cut  from  the original release (presumably because of 
length). Granted, it's been many  yrs. since the original release 
and discussion, but  as  I remember, the  voice  over  and "happy 
ending" were  added after preview audiences reacted negatively to 
the  original ending  and  had  trouble  figuring  out  what  was 
happening;  Scott  (and  Ford)  reportedly  did  *not*  want  the 
voiceover  and  changed  ending.  The  director's cut,  which  is 
supposed to  be  what  the  director actully wanted,  did  rather 
poorly on limited release, but hopefully is doing well  on  video 
(and laserdisk? I  only  have  a VCR,so I  don't notice what's on 
disk). I  was able to  see the director's cut  in  a theater, and 
really enjoyed  it--I  had  hated  the  "happy ending",it was  so 
obviously tacked on,  and found  the voice-over distracting (with 
anybody but Ford it would have been downright infuriating˙) 
     Chris Callahan  (who  *will*  find  time  to  view  her  own 
precious  tape   of  BR--director's  cut--one  of   these  days˙) 

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 15:00:51 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Zoryany Shlyah SF Club
From: Boris Sidyuk <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 21:52:25 +0300
X-Mailer: BML [MS/DOS Beauty Mail v.1.36]
Subject: LitSearch
Lines: 5

Does anybody knows e-mail address of Larry Roeder or somebody else
from LitSearch.

Regards, Boris
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 15:02:42 1995
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From: "John J. Ronald" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fantasy v. SF
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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On Fri, 23 Jun 1995, Jim Wallace wrote:

> But, this does not address the poster's original complaint, the lumping 
> together of SF and Fantasy.  Why not? (Especially if SF=_speculative_ 
> fiction).  If you don't care to read one or the other, fine; but, if for 
> no other reason than current marketing practices (I'm sure Messers 
> Resnick, Effinger, etc. can speak to this), SF and fantasy are linked in 
> the public mind, for better or worst.  Certainly they both have a place 
> on this list.

I utterly and completely reject using the term SF to stand
for "Speculative Fiction".  To me it means SCIENCE FICTION and
I am sticking to my guns one this one.  I insist that 
the term "Speculative Fiction" is utterly redundant, and
a goofy linguistic trick designed to put SCIENCE FICTION
and FANTASY in the same bed.  All fiction involves some
degree of speculation.  Let me couch this by saying I 
don't mind discussing fantasy here either (I love that
stuff too), but I personally follow the theory/definition
of SF laid out by Dr. William B. Fischer in his study of
German SF...namely that you cannot begin to speak of a
true "Science Fiction" until you have an industrial revolution
and science & technology have a drastic impact on people's
lives and they are aware of, interested in, and sometimes
afraid of, that impact.  Only then, argues Fischer, can
we truly begin to speak of Science Fiction.  Does SF have
roots before this?  Certainly, and Fischer (and I) acknowledge
this, but SF doesn't truly come into its own until the 19th
century.  It is a child of Fantasy that has grown up rapidly,
along with our astonishing leaps and bounds in technology
in this 20th century.  They ARE related to one another,
but they aren't the same.  I understand what people are
trying to do with the term "SF", but my mind just cannot
accept the "S" standing for "Speculative" rather than
"Science".  "Speculation" is NOT the same thing as
"Extrapolation"...related word? Sure, but NOT the same.
Speculative is just too broad a term and just
sounds redundant when paired with the term "Fiction".

I'm not going to whine and threaten to unsubscribe from
the list or tell everyone that I am going to get huffy and
delete *all* the Fantasy related messages or anything like
that... I'm just letting my position be known and letting
it be known that I am digging in and sticking to my guns.
(besides, what a boring list this would be if we were
always agreeing with each other all the time ;-) )

Well, back to the books (and the video store)...

--John Ronald
	Rice University


From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 15:19:41 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Chris Terran)
Subject: Re: SF Sites in the UK
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
References: <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 20:15:33 +0100
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: BSFA
X-Mailer: Archimedes TTFN Version 0.36

In message <[log in to unmask]> Sean wrote:

> WhataboutTales from the White Hart by Clarke?  I realize this may not
> apply, tho.

Why not? I can think of no more suitable place for an SSSI (Site of
Special Science-fictional Interest, natch) than a pub.

Best

Chris (mine's a pint)

--

Chris Terran                       *******************************************
Email: [log in to unmask]      * Editor, 'Matrix' - The news magazine of *
Voice: 0113 278 2388               * The British Science Fiction Association *
Opinions mine ... mine, all mine!  *******************************************


From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 15:19:47 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Chris Terran)
Subject: Re: UK SF Sites
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
References: <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 19:42:17 +0100
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: BSFA
X-Mailer: Archimedes TTFN Version 0.36

In message <[log in to unmask]> George Alec Effinger
wrote:

> You've got a big job ahead of you.  At last count, there are over a billion
> and a half SF books set in the UK, written by British and foreign authors.
> If you're not careful, your map will be solid black with dots, particularly
> around London, I imagine.

This was the reason for the use of "significant" in the wording. Which
I reserve the right to define, ha ha . . . .

But at the moment there are huge parts of the UK with no entries at all.
The southwest of England is very well represented for some reason, but
there are big gaps in the Midlands, Wales, Kent, Yorkshire (I live in
Leeds, and I know of only two sf-related books set there), the north-
east (Teeside -- viz. Mark Adlard -- excepted), Essex, Norfolk . . . .

London is indeed a problem. Not quite sure how we're going to handle
that yet . . . perhaps a magnified inset.

Anyway, it isn't meant to be a comprehensive project. What I'm looking
for are 'interesting' (define that how you will) sites; perhaps places
which might be worth visiting. For instance, I want to include all the
Blue Plaque sites with sf connections (these objects are placed on buildings
and say things like "So-and-so lived/wrote/screwed the chambermaid here").
I suspect there aren't many.

Best

Chris

--

Chris Terran                       *******************************************
Email: [log in to unmask]      * Editor, 'Matrix' - The news magazine of *
Voice: 0113 278 2388               * The British Science Fiction Association *
Opinions mine ... mine, all mine!  *******************************************


From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 15:30:10 1995
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 15:30:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: written vs. films
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Marina: >> "If writing about borrowed characters in borrowed settings is
so stifling to creativity, why are you so excited about writing a Sherlock
Holmes story in another writer's style?" <<

Because 1) it took me 2 hours, not a huge chunk of my creative life; 
2) I've written over 50 novels and 150 stories in my own universes, so
I don't think my creativity is being stifled at this late date; 3) writing
one story of 5000 words in the style of Thorne Smith is -not- the same
as writing 100 uncreative novels in the imagined style of Gene Roddenbury.

Trust this answers your question/objection/whatever.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 15:37:51 1995
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 12:35:42 -700
Subject: More on Douglas Adams...
To: [log in to unmask]


While we're on the subject of Douglas Adams, has anybody read _Last Chance to
See_ which Adams supposedly co-authored?  I was told that it was very good
reading, and have ordered a copy from my favorite bookstore.  BTW, I liked both
of the Dirk Gently novels.  Also, even though the originality and humour of the
Hitchhiker's series had waned (inevitably) by the fifth book, I thought that
the last book was in keeping with Adam's philosophy of a random, meaningless
external universe.  Arthur and Ford, though escaping Earth's destruction
originally, just happened to be there for the final demolition.  It could be
that Mr. Adams had been asked one too many times if he was going to continue
the HHGTG series, and decided, "Yes, I will as a matter of fact.  And I'll blow
them all up (hee, hee, hee)!"  Just adding my $.02 worth!

Jeff Ogle ([log in to unmask])

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 15:56:01 1995
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 15:52:55 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy

If you want others to know what you're talking about, you must define the
words you use.  Communication is of little use when we're really talking
about different things and can misunderstand each other.
I think it is fine to leave fantasy and SF together in a catagory like
speculative fiction.  But if you use the words fantasy and SFa lot, you might
want to know what they mean to you (this extends to other, more important,
matters).
Fiction is stuff that simply can not and has not, nor never will, happen.  My
definition of speculative fiction (by that I mean SF and fantasy) is fiction
that is very aware, even glorifies, the impossibility of its existence.
 Sure, some SF writers may try for "realistic" futures, but it's impossible
to know.  (And yes, some SF writers have predicted pieces of the future in
their writing.)
My definition of SF is speculative fiction that draws from the future.  And
fantasy draws from the past.  These are very vague, and there are possible
exceptions, but I'm working on 'em.

Sean D.
danes4

From cstu  Sat Jun 24 20:21:17 1995
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From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy (fwd)
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Mime-Version: 1.0
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 16:49:55 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy

Fantasy is often the literature of the impossible, not just improbable(Lord
of the Rings).  SF is frequently improbable or even impossible(Star Wars).
 Finally, the supernatural is often considered possible by those who write
about it(when Stephen King wrote Carrie, he really believed in telekinetic
powers).


From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 17:45:31 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner

Johnny M was horrific. Nothing about or in the film was of value.

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 17:45:51 1995
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 17:45:50 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Twighlight Zone

>I *love* the Twighlight Zone!  Old stuff, and the newer episodes..
>(never saw the movie, though)...I also miss the tv-spinoff
I dunno... I saw only one episode of the new TZ that was actually GOOD. The
rest of them were just scary-tales :-)

>of Amazing Stories that Spielberg did awhile back...those
>were great, too...Lots of very cool (and often, very twisted)
YES ! Remember that crazy teacher one ? What was it called....

>Zone also drives SF as well.  Good point, good point.
>*high five*

Thank you.


From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 19:17:03 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Androids...Sheep -> Blade Runner (was Written vs. Films)
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 95 16:07:13 PDT
Message-Id: <9506232307.0D61E8@martinw>
X-Mailer: SelectMAIL 1.2

A brief editorial:  

I've always tried to relate my postings to this group to SF literature in 
some fashion.  Since I've learned that there's considerable opposition 
from some members of this list towards discussing the subject of SF in 
media other than the written word here, I'll try to make my comments as 
valuable as possible to everyone.  I don't want to waste anyone's time, 
and I certainly have no problem acknowledging literature as the most 
valuable aspect of the SF genre.  

End of editorial.


On the subject of the translation of PKD's DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC 
SHEEP (DADOES) into Scott's BLADE RUNNER [log in to unmask] wrote:

|I try to bear in mind that after reading the screenplay Philip Dick 
|wrote "It was terrific.  It bore no relation to the book" [Do Androids 
|Dream of Electric Sheep].

I haven't read my BLADE RUNNER screenplay in a while; PKD's observation 
of it could be quite correct.  On the other hand, I wonder if PKD ever 
saw Ridely Scott's finished BLADE RUNNER, because I certainly feel that 
film retains many of the ideas and concepts that PKD's novel contained.  
My recollection of DADOES includes the question of many of the principal 
characters' humanity and the resulting (and most compelling, IMHO) 
implications of subjective reality.  I believe that these questions and 
themes were expressed in the film; I believe that the means of 
communicating these ideas were altered in going from the written word to 
the screen, but I don't think it would be correct to say that "the movie 
has no relation to the book".

Some observations about the voiceover:  from what I understand (as many 
posters have mentioned), Scott never intended a voiceover for the 
released film; the voiceover was added a a concession to others when 
initial screenings returned ambiguous and/or negative ratings.  My 
observation is that the voiceover intends to makes Deckard a much more 
sympathetic character to the audience; without it, there is no mention of 
an ex-wife, he makes no associations with the motivations of the 
replicants, and we have fewer indications of his feelings towards 
Rachael.  

PKD's Deckard is certainly a more sympathetic character than Scott's 
(non-voiceover) Deckard; PKD's Deckard is much more of an "everyman" 
(bowing to peer pressure with respect to electric animals, being scolded 
by his wife, etc.) as compared to Scott's "lonelyman" (recently seperated 
from wife and job, seemingly having no hobbies except killing and 
wandering the cold, wet streets).  From these surface observations, I 
might be tempted to conclude that PKD's message is intended to hit a 
broader audience (since it employs the sympathetic everyman), whereas 
Scott's version seems to be intended more as an exploration of a single 
individual.

On the subject of the various version of Scott's BLADE RUNNER, Dave 
Hipple ([log in to unmask]) wrote:
 
|My vague recollection is that this "Director's Cut" was, even then, 
|not actually what Ridley Scott had had in mind.  I'll try to find some 
|stuff that I think I have on this.  May be thinking of a totally 
|different "Director's Cut", of course.  

I've seen three different versions of BLADE RUNNER.  The first was the 
voice-over version (theatrical release), the second was a non-voice-over 
version with a few extra scenes (a "preliminary" director's cut), and the 
third was also a non-voice-over edition with a few more scenes (a "final" 
director's cut?).  This last version has been released on laserdisc as 
part of Voyager's Criterion Collection along with commentary by Ridley 
Scott, production materials etc.  I recommend this version as well as the 
BLADE RUNNER FAQ as excellent sources of BLADE RUNNER information.

Finally, someone asked for opinions on the voice-over version vs. the 
non-voice-over version.  I'll try to be brief (YES! everybody 
screams---BE BRIEF!).  The voice-over was largely intended to 
(paraphrasing Mike Resnick) "dumb <the movie> down to a 10-year-old 
level".  When I first saw the movie, I was a bit older than 10, but the 
voice-over did its job--it patronizingly led me through the complex 
ideas presented in the film.  I can't *hate* the voice-over version, 
since it introduced me to a work that would become one of my favorite 
pieces of popular art, but I can *prefer* the non-voice over version, and 
recommend that others give it a try.  I believe that the non-voice-over 
version is a more cohesive, powerful, and disturbing work.

OK, that's all.  Hope nobody's time was wasted.

-Martin S. Won
 [log in to unmask]



From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 20:17:02 1995
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 20:17:01 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: 19th Century sf

Arno Press printed a series of primarily 19th century Science Fiction in the
mid to
late 1970's. The dates of the works on their list range from 1751 to 1934,
but most are 19th century. The majority of the authors in this series were
new to me. There is a
dated list of books and authors in the back of each volume. Tempe Public
Library,
Tempe, Arizona seems to have most of them. My example in hand is Empire of
the 
World by C. Cutcliffe Hyne, Arno Press New York 1975 [London, Everette & Co.,
1909.]

Another source which has much 19th century material is Hyperion Press with
their 
classic series. It includes a lot of more modern stuff.

Gary
Gary L. Swaty

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 20:39:01 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 2001

I  totally agree with you.  I would like to see it remade  with all the great
special  effects available now.

Pat

From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 21:43:00 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, et...

>Yes, film and TV have had tremendous effects (affects? never remember the
>difference)  on sci fi.  However, very little (almost none)  of it I
consider
>good art.  SF film and TV (and maybe there is excellent work in less
>mainstream markets being done that I am not aware of) is quite flawed.
 Until
>it reaches the level of art that some writing has achieved, I feel it is
>mainly relevant in its relation to better quality work.
Well, actually, there are many different genres on TV, too, just as there are
many different genres in the print. For example, Star Trek qualifies as
"space opera", but Star Wars beats it cold :-)
Anyway, I consider the Twilight Zone being one of the masterpieces of TV...
"Enemy Mine" is also great, but it is not the original, so it doesn't really
count.
What about "Hook" or "The Lion King" ? 




From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 21:50:38 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF thesaurus-Difference b...

>I really wish people would stop grouping SF into ht efantasy category, and
>vice versa.  There is a *big* difference.  SF takes place in a world more
>technologically advanced than our own.  It is often, but not always, a
Actually, in some cases SF and F are welded together. Take McCaffrey (sp?) ,
or Simak: most of the time there is a smooth transition from hi-tech to
wizardry. Come to think of it, what about "So you want to be a wizard" ? What
category would that be in ?
Both, IMHO.




From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 21:53:32 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy

It was in The Twilight Zone...
"Science is iprobable made possible, fantasy - impossible made probable".
Or something like this...


From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 21:56:40 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy

>PS: Oh, on another topic entirely, while I enjoyed "The Twilight Zone," I
>have come to realize how poverty-stricken the stories are.  Most of the
>plots consist of an individual with but one principal--and unpleasant--
>character trait.  This person is put in a situation in which that trait gets
>him into trouble, and the story usually ends with him trapped in a horrible
>fate, having learned An Important Lesson, sadly Too Late.  Too didactic by
>half.
I disagree. While many of the episodes do just that, others deal with society
vs individual or plain political satire... But all of them give the "lesson"
as an additional monologue, they do NOT make it the whole point of the
episode.



From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 22:04:02 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fantasy v. SF

>1) Magic v. technology.  Can _anyone_ learn to manipulate the universal 
>forces, (technology; science = repeatable experiments), or does it 
>require an inborn talent (magic)
I disagree. Many books deal with magic taken in scientific manner (Sheckley,
for example, has some stories on that). This would blow up definition #1.
Besides, remember Clarkean saying...

>2) Politics. Is the basis of rule attainable by anyone (vox populi; SF) 
>or, again, does it require an inborn mandate (divine right; fantasy).
I disagree again. While fantasy often deals with an idea of "born king",
Middle Earthern Minas Tirith had the Governors, "Wizard of Earthsea" had some
politics in it as well, etc.

I would say that F and SF's major difference is that SF deals with a world
derived from our own, while F creates an entirely new world. However, F / SF
is not a boolean: some books have both.



From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 23:32:34 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF vs. Fantasy



> SF is not necessarily set in a future world, or a technologically superior 
> one. Alternate Histories are SF, and most of them don't feature superior 
> technology. The definition of SF that I like (because it's broad enough to 
> cover everything we generally agree is SF) is that SF is literature dealing 
> with a world differing from our own in a way that can be (or explicitly is) 
> explained scientifically. Fantasy is a closely related genre (or the larger 

Another way to look at it is that there are broad ranges of sciences that may
be looked at in SF.  My wife and I were discussing this area in relation to 
this year's Hugo nominees.  Of course, as a lot of us were growing up, SF meant
other planets, stars, spaceships, and alien creatures.  I still, even though
I know better, have a hard time getting around this notion.  What about sciences
like anthropology, sociology, biology, meteorology, etc.  The whole discussion
stemmed from my "problem" with having _Towing Jehovah_ nominated in the field
of SF.  My wife pointed out that there are more sciences in SF than just the
traditional, and that this novel may fit that category.

As I thought about it, she was right.  It would explain of lot of nominees in
recent (or maybe not so recent :-)) years.  For instance, _Brittle Innings_
has one science fictional element in it, but certainly isn't the traditional
one a lot of us grew up with.  I won't spoil it for those who haven't read it.

Enough rambling, I guess.  I hope I made some sense.

Joe Karpierz


From [log in to unmask]  Fri Jun 23 23:46:26 1995
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Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 23:46:26 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fantasy v. SF

The whole debate about the definition of Science Fiction was settled in the
fan group
here in Arizona years ago by agrreeing to disagree. The local fan
organization I belong
to settled on the term Speculative Fiction and has not attempted to define
Fantasy or
Science Fiction with any specificity. I suspect that any definition that is
adopted can
be brought crashing down with specific examples from the literature. In
general you can
usually put a piece in one category or the other, but if you try to tighten
up your
definitions they fall to pieces in your hands.

Gary
Gary L. Swaty
Member: Central Arizona Speculative Fiction Society

From [log in to unmask]  Sat Jun 24 02:22:04 1995
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Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 02:22:04 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 2001 -- A Masterpiece

Apparently, [log in to unmask] was not entirely pleased with
2001: A Space Odyssey {I'm assuming the 1968 cinematic collaboration between
the novel's author, A.C. Clarke and
director Stanley Kubrick.}  Pardon me while I take issue.

As this work deals with the very development of humans from
little more than apes poised on the brink of extinction, the
"ape scenes" were indispensible.  What prompted our an-
sestors 100,000+ generations removed to survive in a world
so hostile?  That is the initial question Clarke pursued with
Moonwatcher, the classical "person vs. nature" type conflict.

Flashing to the work's present {done, I might add, with all the elegance
contained in 1/24th of a second (yes, the best ideas
really are the simplest)}, Clarke turns the question in another
direction.  Humanity's intelligence has made us masters of our
world and even opened the door leading off our world.  Having de-
feated our earthly surroundings, we now must confront the chal-
lenge our advantage has unwittingly spawned.  Hal is merely
the 'other' participant in the "person vs. him/herself" type conflict
played out on board the Discovery in the space near Jupiter.

In the final sequence, humanity confronts its ultimate challenge.
Having triumphed over less evolved surroundings and our own
selves, are we ready to join the "community" of higher intel-
ligence {indeed, our very benefactors?}  Humanity, in the person
of astronaut David Bowman, makes this final great leap, fulfilling
Clarke's optimistic speculations of Humanity's future.

_2001_ is, IMHO, frontal lobe fodder at its finest.  There are
works containing better character development, more graspable concepts and
action, and, undoubtably of more alluring style.
But I have come across none, delivered in any medium, that
dealt with such fundamentally human concerns in such an ele-
gant manner.  _2001_ stands apart in its representation of human-kind,
knowning nothing of the churlish bounds of mere
place and time.


                                  -Phil "Thank you ACC" Rosen 

From [log in to unmask]  Sat Jun 24 03:45:21 1995
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: rscott@bigcat
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: Mostly Harmless
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Well, I have read the radio scripts. I did like the tv series of HHGTTG 
quite a bit, even with the bit of messing around they pulled. :) Also had 
the album version of HHGTTG.

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place


From [log in to unmask]  Sat Jun 24 04:02:19 1995
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: rscott@bigcat
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Films/tv/written tie-ins and the field?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Interesting question, Mike. Have these books widened the exposure of the 
field as a whole? Probably. Some of them are written by professionals 
such as yourself, too. Makes more money for them, there. Someone has to 
write them. New writers are generally screwed/up against huge odds 
anyway, aren't they?

Is there a study on this anywhere, as to how many new writers get 
published each year in whatever field?

Star Trek books, Doctor Who books, whatever, have been published for 
decades. Well, at least a couple. :) Lots of them by 'famous' authors, too.

How about publication of 'screenplay' books in general? i.e. every movie 
seems to have its own novel version, and for quite a while, too.. 

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place


From [log in to unmask]  Sat Jun 24 04:09:24 1995
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Get the Director's Cut of Blade Runner. No voice-over, different original 
ending. It is available on video.

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place


From [log in to unmask]  Sat Jun 24 04:26:47 1995
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: written vs. films
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Regarding third hand universes :-

People that like those universes more than yours might object to that 
statement, Mike.:) I think you have part of a point, but are not completely 
correct. Then again, you're a writer, I'm not. As such, you are lucky to 
be part of a lucky talented privileged few.

Now, to another question :- does it take more nebulously defined 'talent' 
to write in someone else's universe, or make up a boring mediocre one of 
your own? (just as a generic example, not naming names.)

The Star Wars books, for example :- Have you read them all?

Characters obviously grow and change. Luke becomes a master, Han and Leia 
have rugrats, all that sort of stuff. That is not quite the static 
reality of a tv series with no continuity, etc., is it?

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place


From [log in to unmask]  Sat Jun 24 04:29:46 1995
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: rscott@bigcat
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: RE SF AND FANTASY DIFFERENCES
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Why can't they be SF? Stick a vampire in Gibson's sprawl. What do you 
have then? This definition is way too narrow and 'purist'

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place

On Fri, 23 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Okay, I screwed up a little.  Some modern, but supernaturally enhanced
> settings, such as those of ghost stories, can be considered fantasy.  They
> should *not* be thought of as SF, though, so my distinction remains.
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Sat Jun 24 13:00:22 1995
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Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 12:57:16 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Tie-In Novels

Speaking to the book tie-ins to SF movies and TV shows, I will go on record
as being a willing buyer of the Babylon 5 novels and comics, but ONLY those,
not the other media tie-ins. Why? They're important to the story arc Mr.
Straczynski is telling. He isn't allowing extranea to bear his creation's
logo, unlike the Trek or Star Wars megaseries. He's also keeping them to a
minimum. There have been, and likely only will be, three B5 novels and a four
or five-part comic miniseries. Rather civilized of him, I'd say.

=====
Brenda Daverin
[log in to unmask]
Nibelung Code: N48 l+ a(-) f- n- e d+ m+ b g(-) v u+ w+

From [log in to unmask]  Sat Jun 24 14:16:44 1995
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Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 14:16:43 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Alternate Histories and SF

Quoting [log in to unmask]
>Could you tell me more about those "Alternate Histories" you were referring
>to?  They seem to be the lone exception.

An alternate history story is one where some crucial point in hsitory is
changed or deleted, and the author pursues the possiblity of the results.  An
excellent example is a story written by Robert Heinlein (I unofrtunatly
forget the title) where the protagnist is actaully working on an alternate
history story.  The twist is, the story Heinlien writes in set in a wrold
where the Roman empire didn't collapse.

I also woudl like to say that that altenrate histories are not the sole
domain of sci-fi.  For an example, see the movie _Forrest Gump_.  In the
movie, Forrest is the catalyst for several of histories key events.  Although
it doesn't change the outcome of history, it is an alternate reality, as
there was no real Gump.  The novel is an even borader alternate history, as
Gump actually does things that never happend, and minor changes in history
result.



From [log in to unmask]  Sat Jun 24 14:16:45 1995
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Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 14:16:45 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Women in Sci-Fi

Has anyone ever read a scinece fiction story where the protagnist is a female
and doesn't have a sexual encounter?  This isn't a question of prejudice, but
curiosity.  I've jsut written such a story, and thought of this while editing
it for submission.

From [log in to unmask]  Sat Jun 24 14:16:50 1995
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Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 14:16:49 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Ancient fantasy literature

        The grandaddy of all fiction in this line is Lucian's _True
History_, a wonderful travel satire written in the 2nd century A.D. There's
considerable scatological and sexual humor in it, as I recall, which means
it'll be ridiculously easy to get high school students to read it. Simply
forbid them to do so.
*******************
Along these same lines is _The Metamorphosis_, I don't remember the author's
name (perhaps someone else can fill this in for me - it's been a couple of
years since I checked out a copy), but the plot involves a man being turned
into a donkey by the gods (it's either the Greek or Roman Panthenon - like I
said, it's been a few years) and does interesting things (like having sex
with a nobelman's daughter - a girl who is *very* upset and hurt when the
donkey returns in the form of a human years later).
I believe very vague hints about what it's about and why the students should
*not* read it would make it difficult for the local library to keep it's
copies on hand.
[:-)

Adora
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Sat Jun 24 14:17:00 1995
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Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 14:17:00 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Pulp books series - good or bad?

That said, I will freely admit that Roddenbury and Lucas have had
an enormous effect on science fiction. Where I work, it is appearent
primarily in endless Trekbooks and Wookiebooks that have virtually
killed the midlist and kept dozens of promising young writers off the
racks. If anyone would like to argue that this has been good for the
field, I'll be happy to oblige.
********************
In the August issue of _Science Fiction and Fantasy_ magazine there's an
editorial about the _Goosebumps_ series that have kids doing flips to
convince their parents to buy them, or (according to my mother-in-law...who
works @ an elementary school library) running to the library to try and check
out a copy that they haven't read yet.
The editorial stated that this was good for the SF and Fantasy business (even
though these books are horror) because it's getting kids to *enjoy* reading.
Now, along these same lines, the trecky and Wookie books have gotten some of
my very busy adult friends to take a few minutes out of their day to read (we
call it head-candy).
*But* is this really a good thing? If all of these 'pulp' series (some of
which have very obvious plot and literary flaws and are written solely for
the purpose of tying into a fad and giving the reader a fast-paced thrill
that doesn't require to much thought) are pushing out promising writers with
real meaty stuff to offer, I can't help but wonder.

Adora
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Sat Jun 24 14:17:06 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Trecky trivia

A quick question - Where was Cpt Kirk born? I know it's in Iowa, and I know a
town in this wonderfull state 'o' mine has managed to lay official claim to
the honor, but I can't find the name of this elusive town! I've heard that
they have an anual 'star-treck & farm-implement' parade/fair thing that helps
them to raise money for stuff like park equipment, and I'd love to drive out
to see it.
If someone can think of the name, I can contact the chamber (and/or drive out
there) to find out the rest of the info about the town - for anyone
interested.

Thanks!
Adora
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Sat Jun 24 19:09:09 1995
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Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 19:09:09 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Profiles of er, when was that?

Andy Builer posted:
> 
>
>My (Corgi SF Collectors Library) edition of Planet 3 is dated 1973 
>(actually a 75 reprint) with a Gollancz edition noted in 1972.  The 
>intro, date January 1971, mentions Profiles of the Future (1963) and 
>Voices From the Sky (1965).
>
>My Pan edition of Profiles is a second edition 1973 (and copyrighted 
>then, + 1962) with mention of a 1964 Pan edition, with an earlier 
>Gollancz (1962 [sic]) edition.  Presumably Andy Sawyer quoted from a 
>Gollancz hardback of the second edition.
>
>The Third Law (on magic) is mentioned in a footnote on p 39, having 
>referred to the French edition of Profiles.  Clarke says "[I] have
>also 
>formulated a Third", with the implication that this would postdate
>the 
>second, which was published in 1962 (in Profiles) but not designated
>as a 
>law until the French edition.  I believe I cited it last night as
>being 
>in 1969 in the New Yorker, otherwise it appears to have been
>formulated 
>between 1962 and 1972.  Could it have been in Voices?  When was Lost 
>Worlds of 2001?   
>
In the past year I read of  SOMEONE having been quoted as considering another
author as adding a new law to Clark's laws (either third or fourth) the other
author felt amused and complemented.

This was in either ASIMOV'S, ANALOG, SCIENCE FICTION AGE, or SCIENCE FICTION
CHRONICLE.  In the last year.

--Paul 

 

From [log in to unmask]  Sat Jun 24 19:09:28 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy

The person who claimed that SF is set in a world more technologically
advanced than ours, while fantasy is less technologically advanced, I have
one observation:

Doesn't that imply that SF from the past 'degrades' into fantasy?

Our tech is advancing.  Older SF has NOT beecome fantasy even though their
tech is now obsolete.

--Paul


From [log in to unmask]  Sat Jun 24 19:11:26 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy

Your story was SF, not fantasy.
What is steampunk?

From [log in to unmask]  Sat Jun 24 21:40:41 1995
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Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 20:40:39 -0500
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Ed McKnight)
Subject: Re: Fantasy and SF (Technology in)

George Alec Effinger wrote:  

>To the person who claimed that SF is set in a world more technologically
>advanced than ours, while fantasy is less technologically advanced, I have
>to say that this is a simplistic generalization, and just plain wrong.
>There are examples of modern SF that is set in a less technological world
>(the subgenre of steampunk, for example), as well as fantasy that takes
>place in what would otherwise be a higher-tech futuristic setting 

I have to agree; while fantasy does still demonstrate more of the
quasi-medieval iconography characteristic of the genre than SF does the
iconography of robots, spaceships and ray guns, there is nothing inherently
contradictory about fantasy and technology; nor is a technology more
advanced than our own necessary to science fiction.  Turtledove's AGENT OF
BYZANTIUM stories are a good example of the latter point, in that while they
are set in the thirteenth century (not our thirteenth century, granted, but
not radically different from ours) they also fit the narrowest definition of
SF I've ever encountered: Asimov's "science fiction is fiction about
science" (or words to that effect).  The central plot element in almost all
of these stories is the discovery or development of some specific piece of
technology (the telescope, gunpowder, the smallpox vaccine), making them
indisputably SF despite the medieval setting. 

>People ought to stop defining things, say I.  It's just another way of
>pushing pins through butterflies and mounting them in cases.  The
>butterflies are prettier when they're alive.

I agree with this, too, at least as far as prescriptive definitions are
concerned.  To tell a writer that he or she can't put a dragon and a
spaceship into the same story is absurd. However, descriptive definitions
that arise from the observation of what has been written in the past, and
that allow for further innovations, are not only useful to librarians and
booksellers, but can enrich one's reading of a particular story by adding to
one's awareness of the elements of various genres as they develop and
intermingle. With that in mind, let me say that the most profoundly
thoughtful "definition" of SF I've ever read was Norman Spinrad's: ". . . a
literary technique for re-creating the lost innocence of fantasy, for
resurrecting the reader's true belief in the tale of wonder, in the
possibility of the fantastic, in the notion that his universe and the
universe of the marvelous may be one and the same"  (Science Fiction in the
Real World p. 47).  This definition ignores the superficial elements of
iconography or setting and focuses on the reader and his or her own
understanding of the universe and how it can and cannot function.  Most
significantly, it leaves it to the reader to decide whether he or she is
reading SF or fantasy while providing a usable framework in which to make
that decision.

Ed McKnight  - [log in to unmask]
 


From [log in to unmask]  Sat Jun 24 22:24:22 1995
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Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 22:25:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: "M.L. Davis" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Women in Sci-Fi
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Sat, 24 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Has anyone ever read a scinece fiction story where the protagnist is a female
> and doesn't have a sexual encounter?  This isn't a question of prejudice, but
> curiosity.  I've jsut written such a story, and thought of this while editing
> it for submission.

For interests sake, try finding a few contemporary sf works where women 
are *not* considered to be "breeders"--most of the dystopian stuff I'm 
working with features such scenarios (difficult to narrow the choices 
down to a workable #).  OK, I recognize that's an overstatement [please 
don't waste band-width listing umpity-zillion examples where it is not 
true], but there are a *lot* of examples of 80s writers exploring the 
issue (i.e. Wilhelm, Atwood, Piercy, Elgin...).

On that note, Joanna Russ has written a great story (name escapes me, 
'bout 10 years old, sorta a cliches from outer-space thing), and one 
character is sifting thru the slush pile while moaning "if I have to read 
*one* more story about weird ways to get pregnant..."

 Just my tuppance on the issue.

Marie Davis



:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:::  "That which does not kill me, makes me funnier"  :::
::: 				- Dennis Miller       :::
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


From [log in to unmask]  Sat Jun 24 22:49:07 1995
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Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 22:48:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Alternate Histories and SF
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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> Quoting [log in to unmask]
> >Could you tell me more about those "Alternate Histories" you were referring
> >to?  They seem to be the lone exception.

One of Philip K. Dick's most famous novels _The_Man_In_The_High_Castle_ 
is set in an alternate universe where Japan and Germany have won world II 
and divided the USA along the Mississippi.

Several other alternate history stories have Germany winning WW2 as a 
setting.  One of the best such histories _SS-GB_ was lovingly written by 
Len Deighton who is not a SF writer but an outstanding amateur 
historian.

Other alternate history stories have a universe where the south as won 
the civil war as a setting.  

In some alternate history stories the alternate is provoked by somebody 
going back in the past in a time machine and changing the course of time.
In these cases there is supposedly only one possible timeline.

In other alternate history stories, such as the paratime series by H. 
Beam Piper or the novel _Roadmarks_ by Zelazny, multiple universes 
coexist and the hero goes from one to another by scientific means.  Well, 
not exactly scientific in the case of Zelazny.  

On the usenet, there is an entire newsgroup devoted to alternate 
history:  alt.history.what-if  Every 4 months, R.B. Schmunk (an alternate 
history fan with a methodical bent) post on this newsgroup his 
_Alternate_History_Booklist_.  It is in fact a most thorough bibliography 
which covers every alternate history story or novel ever written.  It 
presents them in chronological split-off order and in order of author.  
Schmunk also gives a complete history of alternate histories and their 
etymology in the introduction.


There is an american TV series called "Sliders" where the heroes are 
perpetually sliding from one alternate to the other.  I can't say how bad 
it is because it isn't broadcast up here.  In this case there are several 
parallele universes which the heroes visit by scientific means.


DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask] aa


From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 00:18:20 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:20 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: More on Douglas Adams...

There's one thing I don't get about the Hitchhiker trilogy.  Everyone assumes
it to be set in stone that Arthur can't die until he goes to some planet(I
can't remember the name) and gets shot at, and ducks, and the bullet kills
Agrajag in one of his many forms.  Then he dies with the rest of the world.
 Did any of you DL fans out there catch that?

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 00:18:26 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:15:20 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy (fwd)

I like your definition of fantasy, but how can one "draw from the past"?

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 00:18:32 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:31 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner

That's a real surprise after William Gibson wrote the script, which alone was
enough to make me want to see it.

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 00:18:36 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:15:30 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Androids...Sheep -> Blade Runner (was Written vs. Films)

Deckard would have been much more gritty and convincing, ad the movie as a
whole would have been a lot better, if he had *not* been made into an
"everyman".  One of the main distinctions of cyberpunk is that the
protagonist need not be a hero.

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 00:18:41 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:41 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF thesaurus-Difference b...

Could you please describe "So you want to be a wizard"? I haven't read it so
i can't comment on it.  Usually, a story containing both fantasy and sci-fi
elements can be considered sci fi, since SF does not preclude magic, while
fantasy is firmly rooted into a modern or earlier tech level.  The defining
factor of SF is technology level, and anything that is neither at a later
date nor a higher tech level than the time at which it is written is not SF

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 00:18:48 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:47 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: RE SF AND FANTASY DIFFERENCES

> Why can't they be SF?  Stick a vampire in Gibson's sprawl. 
> What do you have then? This definition is too narrow and
> purist.

Answer: You have SF.  No sound definition of SF requires it to be free of
what we consider supernatural--after all, luke Skywalker used the Force,
while Deanna Troi is empathic(a restricted version of telepathy).  The key
factor in this case is the Gibson's work takes place in the future.

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 00:18:52 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:52 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Alternate Histories and SF

Question: Is the "Alternate History" story taking place in an alternate
history at a higher technology level than our own?  if so, it is SF.  If not,
assuming that it contains no magic, it is neither SF nor fantasy--it's just a
creatively twisted setting.

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 00:19:00 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:18:59 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Women in Sci-Fi

Look in the Oxford Chronology of SF, and you'll find one or two souch
stories.  There are also some in the old "Amazing" mag.
What about stories with more than one main character?

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 00:19:09 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:16:02 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Why I brought up SF vs. Fantasy

Since this subject has provoked discussion, i'd like to explain why i brought
it up.  I work in a library where there is an SF section, but no fantasy
section.  All of the fantasy has "Science Fiction" stamped on the spines, and
goes in the SF section.  This really annoys me, because it seems to be
implying, "What?  Fantasy?  Oh, that's just another kind of Sci Fi.  Same
difference." 
I was not saying that never the twain shall meet.  However, i am offering
this challenge: summarize a setting, and I will tell you whether it's fantasy
or SF, and justify my answer.  Blast away.

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 00:24:16 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:24:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy
To: [log in to unmask]
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John Campbell, in defining the difference between Astounding, his sf
magazine, and Unknown, his fantasy magazine, said: "Stories for Astounding
should be well-written, logical, and possible; stories for Unknown should
be well-written and logical. In half a century, no one's said it better."

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 00:29:27 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:29:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Women in Sci-Fi
To: [log in to unmask]
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Yeah, I've done a lot of them. So have a lot of other writers. Chapter
and verse on demand.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 00:31:48 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:31:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Films/tv/written tie-ins and the field?
To: [log in to unmask]
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I don't think these books have done the field any service. They
certainly haven't helped new writers who refuse to work in someone
else's universe.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 00:35:38 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:35:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: written vs. films
To: [log in to unmask]
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>>The Star Wars books, for example: Have you read them all?<< You must be
kidding, right? I haven't read the Collected Little Lulu, either.

>>Does it take more nebulously defined 'talent' to write in someone
else's universe, or make up a boring mediocre one of your own?<< Well,
that's certainly not a lopsided, loaded question, is it? I don't
still beat my wife, either.

>>Characters obviously grow and change. Luke becomes a master...<< Well,
that puts fini to Eugene Gant and Robert E. Lee Prewitt; Luke becomes
a master. Can't argue against deep, meaningful changes like that.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 00:38:01 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 2001 -- A Masterpiece

OK, 2001 was a good movie.  My problem with it (as I remember it now) was
that it was so uninvolving (oh, very cerebral, but I wouldn't have minded
some emotional involvement).  And its stunning length certainly didn't help.
This may be for others only a minor problem, but for me, a character so
abstract and so symbolic was hard to care for.

Sean D.
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 03:40:43 1995
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fantasy v. SF
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John, technology has a profound impact on people's lives *now* that some 
are worried about. Does that make all books written about present day 
with cars etc. SF? :-)

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place


From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 03:45:21 1995
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Subject: Re: written vs. films
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Mike, why is said noel uncreative when Gene Roddenberry didn't write any? 
(I think) Copying an imagined style? Very tricky, unless you are a 
postcognitive telepath, necromancer, or whatever the case may be then and 
now. If 5000 words is 2 hours, then 100000 is 40 hours. Not that big a 
deal, really? Is that really 20 times more stifling to creativity? Lots 
of others who have written other great stuff have written trek books. Or 
Jedi books. Obviously didn't stifle them too much. But, you just lost 
around 5% of the creativity they did, too, by your argument. ;-)

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place

On Sat, 24 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Marina: >> "If writing about borrowed characters in borrowed settings is
> so stifling to creativity, why are you so excited about writing a Sherlock
> Holmes story in another writer's style?" <<
> 
> Because 1) it took me 2 hours, not a huge chunk of my creative life; 
> 2) I've written over 50 novels and 150 stories in my own universes, so
> I don't think my creativity is being stifled at this late date; 3) writing
> one story of 5000 words in the style of Thorne Smith is -not- the same
> as writing 100 uncreative novels in the imagined style of Gene Roddenbury.
> 
> Trust this answers your question/objection/whatever.
> 
> -- Mike Resnick
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 03:47:23 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy (fwd)
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Well, Sean, can't agree that fiction is something written that can't happen.

This is obviously not true. Jules Verne a case in point for SF.

Say you write a story about someone going on a trip. They do it later.
etc.


AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place


From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 03:53:27 1995
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: rscott@bigcat
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Babylon 5 books?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Brenda, you mentioned there are three B5 novels. Are all three out now? 
Melissa and I were talking about this yesterday, and she has the first 
two. If there are three, we need to keep a lookout! :)

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place


From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 03:56:30 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Women in Sci-Fi
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Define sexual encounter? How about a couple of hundred Doctor Who books. 
Blake's 7. Lots of Star Trek.

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place

On Sat, 24 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Has anyone ever read a scinece fiction story where the protagnist is a female
> and doesn't have a sexual encounter?  This isn't a question of prejudice, but
> curiosity.  I've jsut written such a story, and thought of this while editing
> it for submission.
> 

From cstu  Sun Jun 25 11:58:01 1995
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From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
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  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
  Send mail to [log in to unmask] for more info.

---1936459768-1968401469-804095878=:41707
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 11:25:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Eric A. Johnson" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Message from the Virtual Management


First a couple of general comments.  Lately, there have been more and more 
postings on the SF-LIT that don't make a clear reference as to which message 
within each thread they are responding to.  In the interest of clarity, 
if and when possible, please try to make a reference back to whatever 
message it is you are responding to.

Secondly, take pity on poor Colleen our listmanager and try not to send 
dozens of messages or responses one right after the other.  All of these 
messages, have to be approved and posted one-by-one by Colleen.  If you 
can figure out a way to group your responses together, that would make 
all of our lives a lot easier.  Thanks.  EAJ

A couple of my responses on SF and Fantasy differences follow as well as 
some information on steampunk:

On Sun, 25 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> > Why can't they be SF?  Stick a vampire in Gibson's sprawl. 
> > What do you have then? This definition is too narrow and
> > purist.

Gibson already stuck a vampire (or a sucker of life forces) in his own 
sprawl.  See his short story collection BURNING CHROME.
 
> Answer: You have SF.  No sound definition of SF requires it to be free of
> what we consider supernatural--after all, luke Skywalker used the Force,
> while Deanna Troi is empathic(a restricted version of telepathy).  The key
> factor in this case is the Gibson's work takes place in the future.

Except of course when Gibson's novels take place in the past like in the 
steampunk THE DIFFERENCE ENGINE co-written with Bruce Sterling.

Incidentally, someone earlier asked what is steampunk?  Loosely speaking 
it is cyberpunk or SF set in the 19th century or earlier where steam 
rather runs the machines.  Take a look at Paul DiFillippo's recently 
published THE STEAMPUNK TRILOGY or try some of Tim Powers, K.W. Jeter, or 
others' SF set in the past.  Anyways ... EAJ


*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
| Eric A. Johnson				|     *OPINIONS MINE*     |
| Senior Exchange Specialist (Baltics & CIS)	|			  |
| & Recommending Officer for Science Fiction	|  Voice:  (202) 707-9498 |
| Exchange & Gift Division (COLL/E&G/EES)	|  FAX:    (202) 707-2086 |
| Library of Congress, LM 632			|  Email:    [log in to unmask]  |
| Washington, DC  20540-4240  USA		|			  |
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

		"Reality is that which, when you stop 
		 believing in it, doesn't go away."

				Philip K. Dick, 1928-1982



---1936459768-1968401469-804095878=:41707--

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 11:36:24 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 11:36:24 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Defining SF/Fantasy


I don't recall the source, but I believe that the best definition of Science
Fiction that I have read is "If you remove the science from the story and
there is no story left, then it is science fiction.  For an example, consider
Mary Shelley's _Frankenstein_."  The quote is not exact, but the gist is
there.


From cstu  Sun Jun 25 12:02:47 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 12:02:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Magic vs supernatural
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  It seems that in the discussion of SF vs. fantasy, you accept the 
supernatural as at least possible, but not magic.  Magic, however, is 
considered part of the supernatural by many people, such as Wiccans.  And 
I find it difficult to separate magic and what is now referred to as 
psionics.  Merlin did magic when he moved Stonehedge, but would it now be 
referred to as telekinetics?
  As to story lines, where do you place post-apocalyptic works, aka Road 
Warrior settings?  It is in the future, but technology is definitely not 
more advanced.
  Here is a series of books I read, but cannot remember the title.  It is 
set in England far after a nuclear war takes place.  You follow the 
adventures of 3 children, one of whom turns out to be Merlin of King 
Arthur fame, out of his deep sleep.  Yes, Merlin does have powers, but 
the setting is definitely in our future.  What do you think?
Colleen
_________________________________________________________________________
Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian    [log in to unmask]
Library of Congress                                  (202) 707-4132
Washington, DC 20540-4861                       FAX: (202) 707-4142
These opinions are mine, Mine MINE!       
__________________________________________________________________________





From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 13:10:05 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Alternate Histories and SF

[log in to unmask] said ...

>Question: Is the "Alternate History" story taking place in an alternate
>history at a higher technology level than our own?  if so, it is SF.  If not,
>assuming that it contains no magic, it is neither SF nor fantasy--it's just a
>creatively twisted setting.
>

Do we need to also ask about the event or factor that caused the alternate
timeline? If the difference was technology based (electricity discovered
sooner or cancer cured in the 1800's) would this be SF? Or, if the event is
more minor (fear of already-existing atomic bomb dissuaded Japan from
attacking Pearl Harbor) can we still call this SF? I think so, but I do see
your point. Wasn't Fatherland marketed as a mainstream book as well as SF?
I think I've seen Turtledove's Guns Of The South in the mainstream section.

Any rules, definitions and criteria you give to SF will be froth with
examples of how those rules have been broken - that's what makes SF so much
fun to talk about. I will not attempt to define or limit it. 

I don't know what Science Fiction Is, but I know what I like.

Now that I think about it, GOTS may not be a good example since it involves
a post Civil War world with a few PC's and an AK-47 plant. And air
conditioning. And dehydrated food. And nitroglycerine pills.

Fred Grimm

==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==`==~==
Fredrick Grimm
[log in to unmask]

Someday - I'll hav a sig of My Very Own ...then you'll ALL be sorry!
HA HAHAhahahahaaa!!!!!


From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 14:20:20 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 14:20:20 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Ancient fantasy literature

Couldn't all mythological liturature be considered fantasy.

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 14:22:14 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 14:22:14 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fantasy and SF

I'm new to this group so I might be repeating someone else.  If so, sorry to
waste your time.

I would say that the basic difference is that in (good) SF, the
improbable/impossible happening are (at least partially) supported by
scientific explaination.  Whereas in fantasy we must simply take everything
on faith.

Another way of saying this - in SF we put our faith in the science behind the
event(s), in fantasy, the event(s) themselves.

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 14:24:26 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 14:23:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Abominations done in public libraries (was: Why I brought up SF vs. Fantasy )(and did not leave Harry's all night hamburgers-yet)
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Sun, 25 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Since this subject has provoked discussion, i'd like to explain why i brought
> it up.  I work in a library where there is an SF section, but no fantasy
> section.  All of the fantasy has "Science Fiction" stamped on the spines, and
> goes in the SF section.  This really annoys me, because it seems to be
> implying, "What?  Fantasy?  Oh, that's just another kind of Sci Fi.  Same
> difference." 

This brings us to some of the most interesting abominations perpetrated 
by librarians.  Municipal librarians usually.

Damon Knight defined SF as what he points at when he says SF.  Librarians 
in municipal libraries define SF as what they have chucked in a section of 
the library reserved for SF.  They do the same for detective stories usually.

In all of these places (there are many exceptions where SF is kept with 
all other books, like the Montreal central and branch libraries) somebody 
at some point decides on which book will get a little sticker with SF on 
it in big letters, or a sticker with a logo like a star and a spaceship.

This is a fascinating classification exercise with as many solid 
testimonials all over North America as potential paleontogical digging 
sites.

There are as many criteria as there are librarians or library clerks over 
the ages of any given library.

Reconstructing the standards is, for a librarian interested in the arcane 
art of classification as well as SF, as fascinating as reassembling a 
diplodocus skelton is for a paleontologist.

Most of the time the persons putting the stickers on have but a limited 
knowledge of SF.  They never have the time to examine each book in detail 
with several SF encyclopedias at hand.  In fact they do not have the time 
to even read a bit of the story to get a general idea of what is going 
on, so being SF-litarate would not help a lot.

So they classify by author sometimes, by publisher sometimes and 
by the indications a publisher will put on the cover of the book.

But not all the time.

Asimov is a SF author, so a book that says "Asimov's mysteries" sometimes 
gets chucked in the SF section instead of the detective/spy/thriller section.

Len Deighton is a spy/thriller writer so a really good alternate History 
like his _SS-GB_ usually gets chucked in the spy/thriller section instead 
of the SF section.

Thomas Pynchon is considered as a Great Writer so _Gravity's_Rainbow_ 
which is more larded with Science than most SF stories, gets chucked in 
the general fiction collection.

The reverse of these three examples can or will occur in any other 
library.

Next to these massive perversions which occur on a daily basis and are all 
there for us to gaze at for a long time to come, things like chucking all 
the fantasy in the SF section seem rather minor.  An interesting subset 
of the whole phenomenon, yes, but not something that should be looked at 
in isolation from the "SF mark'em and park'em" syndrome.
 
Bookstores also create categories such as "Science Fiction" or "Fantasy" 
and sometimes lump the two together in a big F & SF section, and you 
can also find in them the sort of mismatches I mentioned above.

However, bookstores are set up for profit and staffed with salespersons, 
while libraries are staffed with public servants who are out there to 
spread Culture and Knowledge and push back the frontiers of Ignorance 
with the help of their sacred tools (the hefty volumes of the Dewey 
Decimal Classification, Library of Congress Subject headings and a few 
other sacred texts like the A.L.A. filing guide) and the guidance of a 
tradition which is usually underestimated or taken for granted.

Bookstores operate in competition with each other while all libraries 
theoretically work together with common tools (the DeweyDecimal in most 
public  libraries and the Library of Congress classification in 
University and research libraries to name but two) in presenting books in 
an orderly and useful fashion to Users. 

It is because of all this emphasis on common tools, on order and method 
that the regrouping of books in a "SF" section seems so perverse at 
times.  And so interesting.

You think you have read about the most gruesome of mutants yet?  You 
think you have seen the most bizarre description of aliens ever to have 
lived under a distant star?  Just compare the  contents of the "SF" section
of the public libraries of two different towns, and then you will see 
what aliens and mutants really are.

Au revoir!

DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask] 


From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 14:57:03 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 95 14:57 EDT
From: [log in to unmask] (cb52)
Subject: Re: Re: Women in Sci-Fi 
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> 


>
>On Sat, 24 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:
>

>
>For interests sake, try finding a few contemporary sf works where women 
>are *not* considered to be "breeders"--most of the dystopian stuff I'm 
>working with features such scenarios (difficult to narrow the choices 
>down to a workable #).  OK, I recognize that's an overstatement [please 
>don't waste band-width listing umpity-zillion examples where it is not 
>true], but there are a *lot* of examples of 80s writers exploring the 
>issue (i.e. Wilhelm, Atwood, Piercy, Elgin...).
>
>On that note, Joanna Russ has written a great story (name escapes me, 
>'bout 10 years old, sorta a cliches from outer-space thing), and one 
>character is sifting thru the slush pile while moaning "if I have to read 
>*one* more story about weird ways to get pregnant..."


Ok I won't. But this is not jus an overstatement, it is a /huge/
overstatement. I would say that only a sub-set of SF novels view
women as "breeders".




C. Douglas Baker
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
        [log in to unmask]

From cstu  Mon Jun 26 07:34:39 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 07:34:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Guns of the South
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I found the description of _Guns of the South_ and the technology listed 
very interesting.  During the Civil War, dehydrated food was in existance 
and was issued to the Northern troops.  Granted, it was horrible; the 
compressed vegetable blocks were call desiccated vegetables, but referred 
to by the soldiers as desecrated vegetables.  Air conditioning was also 
invented before the war, although not very cost effectively.  I wonder if 
the other items existed in primitive form also.
Colleen
_________________________________________________________________________
Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh, Senior Processing Librarian    [log in to unmask]
Library of Congress                                  (202) 707-4132
Washington, DC 20540-4861                       FAX: (202) 707-4142
These opinions are mine, Mine MINE!       
__________________________________________________________________________





From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 15:42:14 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 15:42:14 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Fantasy books?

As the issue of SF vs Fantasy has been brought up and heatedly debated, I
thought this would be a good time to mention a book that was just given to
me.

The book is _Fantasy the 100 best books_ by James Cawthorn and Michael
Moorcock (Carroll & Graf Publishers, Inc, New York, 1988). The introduction
states that: "All fiction is fantasy. ...For a while, as popular fiction
burgeoned under the demands of a newly literate public, the term was
restricted to a sub-catagory of stories which dealt with atavistic fears and
allegedly discredited beliefs...in the end, all such lists are highly
personal and, as it turned out, the choices are mainly of one person..." (pg
8-9)

Cawthorn's definition of Fantasy is interesting, although difficult to agree
with. I'm not sure what he means by a 'newly literate public' and as for
being resricted to primitive fear and discredited beliefs...well, I'm sure we
can all come up with examples of novels that refute that. And, the reference
to the term being used 'for a while'...I assume Cawthorn is informing us that
the term is no longer in such use? (rather shocking news to all of the folks
on this list, I'm sure).

However, the comment about this list being the choices of one person connect
back to the canon fodder discussion we had earlier - because you can't expect
universal perfection from just one person's opinion, right?

Now, here's the really interesting part, this book suggests 100 novels in the
(supposedly) Fantasy genre, with a short description of the plot to help
entice the reader to look for it.

This list includes:_Frankenstien_, _A Christmas Carol_, _Moby Dick_,
_Wuthering Heights_, _Dracula_, _The Turn of the Screw_, _Tarzan of the
Apes_, _Conan the Conquerer_, _The Lord of the Rings_, _Rosemary's Baby_, _A
Wizard of Earthsea_, _Red Shift_ and lots and lots of titles I've never heard
of. 

Some of the above listed novels I have a difficult time placeing in a fantasy
catagory, for instance, _Frankenstien_ is SF, _Wuthering Heights_ is a
Victorian Romance (with some elements of the fantastic, granted, but not a
Fantasy per se), and _Rosemary's Baby_ is horror. (all of this is IMHO)

Now, I would recomend this book to anyone looking for something to read
because the summeries are concise (about 2 pages) and (as far as I can tell)
accurate. But the lumping of all of these works under the heading of
'Fantasy'? I believe the title would have been better stated if it had read
'My 100 favorite books'.

But, perhaps someone else has seen this compilation and is of a different
opinion?

Adora
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 16:17:32 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 20:51:02 GMT
From: [log in to unmask] (Patricia Reynolds)
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Alternate Histories and SF
X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10
Lines: 20

In message <[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask] writes:
> Quoting [log in to unmask]
> >Could you tell me more about those "Alternate Histories" you were referring
> >to?  They seem to be the lone exception.
> ...
> I also woudl like to say that that altenrate histories are not the sole
> domain of sci-fi.  
> ...
Another example, this time of alternate history in fantasy, are the works
of Diana Wynne Jones, where there is no scientific explanation of why there
are worlds with different histories - they just split off from one another.
But on some of them there is more magic than on others.  Not all of the
books are set in the same universe.

Titles include _Witch Week_, _The Homeward Bounders_, and _The Witches
of Caprona_.

-- 
Patricia Reynolds
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 16:51:47 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 16:51:46 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Women in SF/More 2001

[log in to unmask] asked about women protagonists in
SF that don't have sexual encounters.  Regrettably, women
protagonists are in the (small) minority and I dare say most
those find their way to a sexual encounter of some description
at some point in the plot {judging from my limited literary
experience}.  Don't you just hate that "obligatory" nonsense?

However, one splendid, recent, and pleasently written exception
is David Brin's _Glory Season_.  Nifty societal setting to boot.
If I could wield adjectives like Brin, my postings would be signif-
icantly more entertaining.  Oh well...

Regarding A.C. Clarke's _2001_, Sean D. complained about the
characters being too symbolic to care about on a human level
(hope I got that right.)  Moonwatcher and Bowman symbolize
humanity (past and present, quite obviously.)  Color me corney
but if one cannot work up some support for this human's race,
as a whole, wouldn't that call into suspicion any sort of "caring"
such a personage may profess for a supposedly sympathetic member of said
race?


                                                                -Phil  Rosen


From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 17:17:51 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 17:17:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Pulp books series - good or bad?
To: [log in to unmask]
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X-Vms-To: IN%"[log in to unmask]"
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My pal Kris Rusch made a valid point...for CHILDREN. But when we talk
Trek and Wookiecrap, we're talking about books for the adult (or teen,
which takes up the same rack space) market...and it's -here- where they
shut the new writers out (unless said writers are willing to stifle
their creativity and tell Trek and Wookie stories), and virtually
murder the midlist.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 17:18:10 1995
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From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Alternate Histories and SF
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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One other example of an Alternate History was FATHERLAND (in which Hitler 
is still alive in the 1960's, Joe Kennedy, Sr. is president of the US and 
the US and Germany are at a stalemate from WWII).  While I didn't read 
the book itself, I saw the HBO movie adaptation and thought, frankly, it 
stunk.  There was a "pivotal scene" in the last 15 minutes (:::spoiler 
time!:::) in which Kennedy, Sr. looks at several photographs of the 
concentration camps and, therefore, refuses to meet with Hitler.  I 
really thought this was a mischaracterization of Kennedy, when real world 
historians have thoroughly recorded his early life as a bootleg whiskey 
runner and an anti-Semitic.  More than likely, the REAL Mr. Kennedy 
would've still met Hitler and would have shrugged off the photographs as 
Jewish propaganda or somesuch.

I can only hope the book was better researched than the HBO presentation.


Gary L. Warren
:[]


On Sat, 24 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Quoting [log in to unmask]
> >Could you tell me more about those "Alternate Histories" you were referring
> >to?  They seem to be the lone exception.
> 
> An alternate history story is one where some crucial point in hsitory is
> changed or deleted, and the author pursues the possiblity of the results.  An
> excellent example is a story written by Robert Heinlein (I unofrtunatly
> forget the title) where the protagnist is actaully working on an alternate
> history story.  The twist is, the story Heinlien writes in set in a wrold
> where the Roman empire didn't collapse.
> 
> I also woudl like to say that that altenrate histories are not the sole
> domain of sci-fi.  For an example, see the movie _Forrest Gump_.  In the
> movie, Forrest is the catalyst for several of histories key events.  Although
> it doesn't change the outcome of history, it is an alternate reality, as
> there was no real Gump.  The novel is an even borader alternate history, as
> Gump actually does things that never happend, and minor changes in history
> result.
> 
> 
> 
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 17:23:02 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 17:23:02 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy

The obvious way in which fantasy can draw from the past, the one most seen
(and the only one I can think of, except alternate histories, and I'm not
sure what they are), is to use the traditions, philosophies, beliefs, and
myths of the past.

Sean D.

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 17:23:06 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 17:19:59 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy

Well, Sean, can't agree that fiction is something written that can't happen.

This is obviously not true. Jules Verne a case in point for SF.

Say you write a story about someone going on a trip. They do it later.
etc.



I've never read any fiction that had taken place in reality.  I mean all of
it.  It's nitpicking, but it's true.  SF, with its impossible assertion that
this IS the future, is going to be VERY different from reality.
The only real problem I see with my definition is how you draw from the
future.  Maybe SF draws from what doesn't exist.  Have to think about it.

Sean D. 

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 17:30:24 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 17:30:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: written vs. films
To: [log in to unmask]
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True, Roddenbury didn't write any Trekbooks. But as any writer who had
to deal with his company will be happy to tell you, he exercised even
more control over what could and couldn't happen in a Trekbook than in
a Trek tv show. Some, like George Effinger, simple refused to do it and
never handed their manuscripts in.

Obviously you've never written a novel...but let me tell you: the fact
that a fast, competent writer can do a 5,000 word story in 2 hours does
NOT mean he can write a 100,000-word novel in 40 hours. A novel is a
far more complex piece of work, and if he's attacking it with any
degree of literary ambition whatsoever, it's going to take MONTHS, not
hours.

Also, I do not hold myself up as a typical writer. Except for perhaps
Barry Malzberg and possibly Kris Rusch, I'm the fastest in the business.
MANY short stories take weeks, not hours; some take months. My Hugo winners
took 2 and 3 nights respectively, and my current Nebula-winning novella
for one week; I've known writers to spend half a year producing the same
number of pages, and not winning anything in the process.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 18:20:34 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:20:34 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fantasy and SF (Technology in)

I don't feel that a writer can't put a dragon and a spaceship in the same
story.  I just want to make it clear that all sci fi cannot be grouped as
fantasy, nor should all fantasy be grouped as SF(as is done at my library).

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 18:20:51 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:17:44 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Steampunk

Steampunk is SF, unless it is at or below the present technology level, in
which case it is neither.

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 18:20:56 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:20:56 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy

Everyone who says that SF must be dependent on Science should see the Star
Wars trilogy.  It is SF, although there is nothing scientific about it.  SF
got its name at a time when it was a vehicle for predicting the future.
 Let's face the facts: not all visions of the future have solid scientific
bases.  They are still SF.

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 18:21:03 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Magic vs supernatural

If it is in the future, it is SF, and that includes post-apocalyptic.

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 18:22:03 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:22:03 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy

No, what I meant was that SF is above the tech level or date of *the time at
which it is written*.  Thus, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea remains SF.

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 18:22:47 1995
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Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 18:22:47 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy

Are you saying that all SF must be possible?  If so, have you ever seen "Star
Wars"?

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 19:17:05 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, et...

>What about "Hook" or "The Lion King" ? 

Both fantasy.  And I think there are some good fantasy films, (if not
perfect, then at least of a higher quality than the SF I've seen).

Sean D.

From [log in to unmask]  Sun Jun 25 19:25:25 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: More on Douglas Adams...

Either that or Agrajag just saw someone that looked Like Arthur.

From shal  Sun Jun 25 22:51:10 1995
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From: "Stephanie A. Hall" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: women protagonists
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Re: the query about stories with women protagonists that do not include 
sexual encounters. 

There are probably lots of examples these days. Some I can think of: 
Connie Willis's _Doomsday Book_, also her _Uncharted Territory_ (sort of 
a comedy of errors in the sexual aspects of the story, so maybe it counts 
and maybe it doesn't), Geoffery Landis' "A Walk on the Moon," 
Ursula LeGuin, "The Day Before the Revolution" (and probably several 
others), Cherry's _Pride of Channur_ (if you will count an alien 
female).  Are those the sorts of stories you had in mind?

Stephanie

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist           The Library of Congress
American Folklife Center               preserves and houses
Library of Congress                    countless ideas and opinions.
Washington, DC 20540-8100              Those expressed here 
[log in to unmask]                           are my own.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 00:53:31 1995
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 26 Jun 1995 00:54:02 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 00:54:44 -0400
From: [log in to unmask] (Chris Minnella)
Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner
To: [log in to unmask]
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>Eric, [log in to unmask]:
>
>>There is a directors cut version of Bladerunner out there.  NO voice over,
>>different ending.   This is the way the story was supposed to go according
>to
>>the original script but the director was overuled by the studio because it
>>wasn't going over well in the screen testing.
>
>
>I've a suspicion, very likely wrong, of course, that the matter isn't that
>simple.  My vague recollection is that this "Director's Cut" was, even then,
>not actually what Ridley Scott had had in mind.  I'll try to find some stuff
>that I think I have on this.  May be thinking of a totally different
>"Director's Cut", of course.  Or just making it up.  Pretty sure, though,
>that I have an account of what this cut actually IS, which indicates that
>it's still not understood to be the "definitive thing".  I'll root around...
>
>          Dave

        Well, from what I know, you are both probaby right. There are more
than 6 versions of Blade Runner. In my opinion the film is brilliant. I
personally prefer the cut without voice overs or happy ending, and with
Rutger saying "fucker" instead of "father" (I think that is enough to
identify the correct cut...). To truly appreciate the movie I think you
should read Phillip K. Dick's novel _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_
that it was based on.
        There are a few excellent Web sites out there on Blade Runner, and
on one the differences between all the cuts are spelled out.
        The real question is of course, "is Deckard a replicant?" I say no,
but there are all sorts of interesting theorys. Hope this helps some.

______________________________________________________________________________
Chris Minnella at RIT                   |            A chicken is an egg's way
[log in to unmask]              |               of making more eggs.



From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 01:35:05 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 01:31:57 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: 2001 and Blade Runner

DANES4 wrote:

>> OK, 2001 was a good movie.  My problem with it (as I remember it now) was
>> that it was so uninvolving (oh, very cerebral, but I wouldn't have minded
>> some emotional involvement).  And its stunning length certainly didn't
help.
>> This may be for others only a minor problem, but for me, a character so
>> abstract and so symbolic was hard to care for.

I can't think of any other movie, SF or not, ever, that captiaved my (and
many, many others') attention the way 2001 did.  Further, the film
accomplished that task without the aid of a significant evil presence, gaudy
love interest or amazingly involved story line.  This film is the very
embodiment of pure, pure science fiction.  This film is about life,
questions, humanity and the force that creates humanity, thought.

To dismiss it as cerebral, too long or too abstract (if you want to see real
abstraction, read the first chapter of the Silmarillion by J.R.R. Tolkein)
indicates a pre-defined expectation for what Science Fiction ought to be.
 Don't get me wrong, I love the big SF hits (movies and otherwise,) but this
film, along with Star Wars and Blade Runner define a triumverate of SF movie
masterpieces without which the SF realm would not be complete.

As for Blade Runner, here is a vote for the voice-over version.  The
directors cut gives the film a more "gritty" attitude, but I don't think the
film needed to be more "gritty."  The voice-overs add a depth to the film
(this may sound bizarre considering my last two paragraphs,) without which
the audience is left to make up.  For this film, already violent and edgy, I
think that the voice-over calms the tone of the film to allow for a focus on
the central theme.

I realize that I am opening up an almost closed can of worms, potentially on
both subjects, but I am interested in other ideas and viewpoints.

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 01:58:47 1995
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From: [log in to unmask] (Patricia Reynolds)
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Dahl interactives
X-Mailer: PCElm 1.10
Lines: 23

I mentioned in an earlier post that I am currently developing Dahl
interactives at Buckinghamshire County Museum, and Andy Sawyer asked
to hear more.

The Dahl Children's Gallery is to be sited in a converted coach-house
on the site of the BCM.  Downstairs, the Dahl characters invite the
visitor to explore their world.  Things like James' Giant Peach, which
will have video microscopes to see insects.  Upstairs (via a Giant Glass
Elevator, of course) there will be a gallery which can be used as a 
theatre, or for crafts, but also for word games and challenges (one challenge
I am working on at the moment is two things in our collections which make
a third (toad+stool) and two things with the same name (cloche).
There is also a quiet reading room.  

I think Andy would appreciate the section on personal hygene ... 
introduced by the Twits.

The _really_ good news is we just heard that we have a quarter of a
million pounds from the National Lottery.

-- 
Patricia Reynolds
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 01:58:58 1995
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From: [log in to unmask] (Patricia Reynolds)
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Ancient fantasy literature
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Lines: 27

Adora wrote:
> Along these same lines is _The Metamorphosis_, I don't remember the author's
> name (perhaps someone else can fill this in for me - it's been a couple of
> years since I checked out a copy), but the plot involves a man being turned
> into a donkey by the gods (it's either the Greek or Roman Panthenon - like I
> said, it's been a few years) and does interesting things (like having sex
> with a nobelman's daughter - a girl who is *very* upset and hurt when the
> donkey returns in the form of a human years later).
> I believe very vague hints about what it's about and why the students should
> *not* read it would make it difficult for the local library to keep it's
> copies on hand.
> [:-)
You aren't thinking of Ovid's _Metamorphoses_, but of Lucius Apuleius'
_The Transformations of Lucius Apuleius of Madaura_, or more usually, 
_The Golden Ass_.  It is a truely marvelous book.  The Robert Graves
translation (available in a Penguin or Folio Society edition) reads like
a novel (and easily as accessible as nineteenth century authors).
I have no idea what the Latin scholars think of Graves' translation - 
but it is at the very least a great retelling of Apuleius' tale.

The donkey episode is only an episode ... there is also a telling
of the Cupid and Psyche myth which is only equalled by CS Lewis's, and
a mystical sequence with Isis which is very beautiful.

-- 
Pat Reynolds

[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 02:14:27 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 02:14:27 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy (fwd)

The thing is, some of the topics are neither.
For example, let's take Star Trek. Is it SF or F ?
IMHO, it is F.
And please, do not reply in a form "I hate TV, it's not real sf, it's all
bogus", I _KNOW_ how you feel :-)


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 02:14:30 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 02:14:29 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Magic vs supernatural

>I find it difficult to separate magic and what is now referred to as 
>psionics.  Merlin did magic when he moved Stonehedge, but would it now be 
>referred to as telekinetics?
The thing is, as magic becomes more widely explored, certain areas of it get
separated from the original concept, receiving new names. The same thing
happened with AI: 
First, it was AI.
Then, AI AND genetic algorithms (well, maybe in different order...)
Then, AI, genetic algorithms AND neural networks...
AI gets smaller and smaller, being separated into little pieces we know how
to use.


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 02:14:55 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Why I brought up SF vs. F...

>I was not saying that never the twain shall meet.  However, i am offering
>this challenge: summarize a setting, and I will tell you whether it's
fantasy
>or SF, and justify my answer.  Blast away.
Impossible. It is not possible to know a book or a movie or whatever to be F
or SF by setting _alone_. Example: Simak. Most of his books start of as SF
and go into F... "The Goblin Reservation".




From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 02:14:57 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Films/tv/written tie-ins ...

>I don't think these books have done the field any service. They
>certainly haven't helped new writers who refuse to work in someone
>else's universe.
I kind of agree here... No matter how good they are, tie-in books are just
that - clones.


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 ->
 ->Has anyone ever read a scinece fiction story where the protagnist is a 
female
 ->and doesn't have a sexual encounter?  This isn't a question of prejudice, 
but
 ->curiosity.  I've jsut written such a story, and thought of this while 
editing
 ->it for submission.
 ->

I'm pretty sure Greg Bear's female lead, Mary Choy, in, I think, Queen Of 
Angels, didn't have such an encounter.

markw

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 06:34:39 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: SF v. Fantasy
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 11:25:00 BST
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DENNIS ABBLITT UNBSJ <[log in to unmask]>:


>      I see two problems with all of this discussion on the
>difference between sf and fantasy.
>
>      1) Most people seem to try to make each work inclusively one or
>the other. Frequently there are elements of both as well as other
>genres in each work.

I agree.  For some reason few people seem concerned to divide up, say, SF, 
romance and murder mystery - three "genres" (according to some taxonomies) 
that are regularly represented in a single novel.


>      2) There are too many concrete or descriptively specific
>definitions e.g. technological, scientific, magic, mediaeval.
>Personally, I like the definition, which I vaguely recall comes from
>one of the academic SF authors (maybe it was Jack Williamson, Jim
>Gunn, Lloyd Biggle or even Ike Asimov) during the late 60's or early
>70"s. Science fiction is the literature of the probable, fantasy the
>literature of the improbable and supernatural the literature of
>the impossible (or maybe it was the other way round).

Sounds very Asimov, that, if he could be bothered writing it down.

May I try to complicate the issue further?  Most of the discussion so far 
has concerned the overt subject-matter as the basis for distinguishing SF 
from Fantasy, and to me, for the way I do my reading., this seems to miss 
something about it.  I believe that it is important to some, at least, 
either to get a distinction sorted or to arrive at a satisfactory idea of 
why this can't be done.  The words are used to mean different things, after 
all.  We just don't quite see what those things are yet.  Like George 
Effinger, I would hate to see the butterfly killed and mounted - its purpose 
is to fly about the place, not to stay still for our benefit.  All the same, 
I see nothing wrong with trying to decide which butterfly it was that just 
zipped past, since we did (often, at least) find ourselves naming it at the 
time.  I think that I can maybe offer a distinction as valid as anyone 
else's, and a couple of thoughts towards why it is that we all seem to have 
these variously useful but personally distinctive views on the matter.

My little suggestion is, basically, that the perspective of a given piece 
might help us to see what we mean by SF and what by Fantasy, and my humble 
offering is a broad and woolly distinction between stuff concerned mostly 
with the inner journey of a particular character (or several - who knows) in 
a more or less unreal setting (and regularly explored through a story about 
really travelling around in that setting), and stuff concerned primarily 
with the whys and wherefores (physical, social, economic...) of the setting 
itself - maybe explored through the progress of one or more individuals 
through it.  Knowing that there would be counter-examples all over the 
place, I would nevertheless offer the former as what we might intuitively 
call Fantasy, other things being equal, and the latter as SF.  This might 
help us peg a lot of things - while of course failing with many others. 
 Doesn't get us very far with some of Lem, for instance (The Investigation, 
for one).

Personally, despite the incredibly detailed and logical setting of LotR, I 
read it as an account of the transformations of the central characters. 
 It's clearly Fantasy for me.  Dune, on the other hand, is superficially 
about some INCREDIBLE personal transformations - but it seems more 
concerned, in fact, with the workings of the huge culture in which these 
things come about.  Someone has suggested The Birthgrave as a book which 
looks like Fantasy until it suddenly turns into SF.  Under my own 
simplification I would (usefully, to me if to no-one else) be able to get a 
start on why it seems to me to be, overall, pretty much straight Fantasy. 
 The same goes for The Electric Forest, incidentally.  Mindswap is, in a 
way, sheer SF in that everything that happens to our poor hero is (kind of) 
explained.  In the end, though, this is no more than a series of hooks on 
which to hang observations about the guy himself.  For the purposes of my 
little starting-point, then, it's no more SF than The Pilgrim's Progress. 
 (There's a potential difficulty with explicitly dealing with allegory in 
this context as well, though, so maybe that's not such a great example. 
 Silverlock, then.  Oops - same problem...)

We do run up against a problem regarding authorial intention, though.  I 
wouldn't immediately know what to do with the Mordant's Need books, for 
instance.  It appears that they're meant to be about the development and 
salvation of the two central characters as they trundle through a set of 
weird experiences.  Then again it seems to me that the books totally fail on 
this count while actually doing a pretty good job on the logic of the basic 
situation.  Adopting this kind of approach, one has at least to wonder 
whether it's right to go with the author's apparent intentions or with one's 
instinctive reaction.  I believe that the latter is correct, because for me 
this is NOT a butterfly-pinning exercise with a view to future 
classification; it's a reflection in hindsight concerning the fact that I 
feel inexplicably confident, often, in knowing why I personally say "SF" or 
"Fantasy", or "well, a bit of this, a bit of that" when I point to 
something.  I think that this kind of thing underlies the other distinctions 
offered, even the ones attempting to set objective standards of 
categorisation, whichever features are chosen as the basis for the 
distinction in each case.  It seems to me that there are by tacit agreement 
two broad tendencies within this stuff.  Over years we reach our own 
understandings of the difference, and then wind up delving back into all 
that experience for a more or less coherent expression of it.  No wonder 
no-one's idea of it seems terribly close to anyone else's.

Does this seem at all useful, to the discussion if not to anyone else as a 
model?

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 06:49:00 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: written vs. films
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 11:35:00 BST
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Mike Resnick:

>3) writing
>one story of 5000 words in the style of Thorne Smith is -not- the same
>as writing 100 uncreative novels in the imagined style of Gene Roddenbury.


I'm sure that's true.  Still, since you mention Star Trek, I have taken 
pleasure in watching Barbara Hambly do something actually interesting with 
characters and a setting that for many reasons (principally changeless 
ubiquity and hence infuriated boredom) I wouldn't otherwise mind seeing 
wiped from the face of everything.

I don't really know whether that agrees with you or not...

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 07:08:58 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: CLARKEAN MAGIC
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:07:55 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" at Jun 22, 95 06:12:46 pm
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In the last mail D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm confused now (well, again...).  I just had a chance to snap a quick look 
> at Report on Planet Three.  I didn't find the quote, though I do still 
> suspect it's in there somewhere.  However, I think it said it was published 
> in 1972 or 1973.  Curiously, if that's the case, it DOES contain a plug for 
> "my book, "Profiles of the Future"".  How come, if that was 1974?  Answer - 
> 1974 wasn't the first edition, presumably, in which case the quote is older 
> still.  Or I'm wrong about the date of Report..., in which case I'm wasting 
> everyone's time again...
> 
>           Dave
> 
"Profiles" was first published in 1962, containing essays written 1959-1961.
The "THird Law" quotation is in a footnote to the essay "Hazards of Prophecy:
THe failure of Imagination"
and refers to "the French edition of this book" having cited "Clarke's second
Law". Clarke goes on to say that he has "since formulated a third", and gives
it in the wording I used. I don't think this IS the first appearance in
print of the Law.

-- 
Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool
PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK
0151-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html

"Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight)

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 07:10:07 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Tie-In Novels
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 11:59:00 BST
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Brenda Daverin, [log in to unmask]:


>Speaking to the book tie-ins to SF movies and TV shows, I will go on record
>as being a willing buyer of the Babylon 5 novels and comics, but ONLY 
those,
>not the other media tie-ins. Why? They're important to the story arc Mr.
>Straczynski is telling. He isn't allowing extranea to bear his creation's
>logo, unlike the Trek or Star Wars megaseries. He's also keeping them to a
>minimum. There have been, and likely only will be, three B5 novels and a 
four
>or five-part comic miniseries. Rather civilized of him, I'd say.

I'd support this one.  As far as I'm concerned the guy is a real (not to 
mention talented) writer trying quite successfully to do something new and 
important for SF in the difficult and unforgiving world of serial TV.  He 
passes out stories for around a third of the episodes, to be written up by 
selected guest writers, and writes the rest himself.  He also keeps an eye 
on anything else produced (and comes down VERY hard on anyone putting out 
anything unauthorised) while keeping the volume low overall.  (He's writing 
about half the comics as well, by the way.)  The story will take five years 
to tell, assuming it gets picked up for its final two seasons (just has been 
for the third).  This is the nature of the project.  Personally I'm avid to 
see how this project survives, and pleased to see what it is trying to do to 
and for the genre.

Actually while I'm here I may as well confess to having read Steve Perry's 
Aliens novels.  But only because they are perfect, mindless train-journey 
material.  On the whole I share the general condemnation of spinoff efforts 
(including these!), with a few considered exceptions.  Even if an outlet 
apparently attracts dross it can still be one whose availability real people 
try to use on occasion.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 07:16:59 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Women in Sci-Fi
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 12:06:00 BST
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>Has anyone ever read a scinece fiction story where the protagnist is a 
female
>and doesn't have a sexual encounter?  This isn't a question of prejudice, 
but
>curiosity.  I've jsut written such a story, and thought of this while 
editing
>it for submission.

Alien...

Even stranger for an "adult" film than a novel, I thought at the time.

Then again we're heavily into motherhood and things here.  Maybe that kind 
of counts.


If it's a short story, there must be loads.  Asimov's Susan Calvin.  Errmm, 
other people...

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 07:24:57 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Fantasy and SF (Technology in)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 12:12:00 BST
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Ed McKnight  - [log in to unmask]:

>With that in mind, let me say that the most profoundly
>thoughtful "definition" of SF I've ever read was Norman Spinrad's: ". . . a
>literary technique for re-creating the lost innocence of fantasy, for
>resurrecting the reader's true belief in the tale of wonder, in the
>possibility of the fantastic, in the notion that his universe and the
>universe of the marvelous may be one and the same"  (Science Fiction in the
>Real World p. 47).  This definition ignores the superficial elements of
>iconography or setting and focuses on the reader and his or her own
>understanding of the universe and how it can and cannot function.  Most
>significantly, it leaves it to the reader to decide whether he or she is
>reading SF or fantasy while providing a usable framework in which to make
>that decision.

Damn - I might have known it had been done before.  and coherently, at 
that...

Seriously, I do think that this is the kind of thing that we need, if 
anything, rather than rules about whether fifty rayguns equals one magical 
feudal baron in determining which side of "the fence" something is on.

          Dave

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 07:42:51 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Androids...Sheep -> Blade Runner (was Written vs. Films)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 12:33:00 BST
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>Deckard would have been much more gritty and convincing, ad the movie as a
>whole would have been a lot better, if he had *not* been made into an
>"everyman".  One of the main distinctions of cyberpunk is that the
>protagonist need not be a hero.

But (a) if the protagonist is everyman then he probably /isn't/ a hero, as 
such; (b) I'd beware trying to peg BR as cyberpunk, and from that derive an 
idea of how it should be.  However you define cyberpunk, Androids was never 
it.  And Scott decided to make a certain kind of film for his own reasons.

I think the earlier points were right - without the voiceover he is 
something of a self-alienated git.  Even though he tries to deny it (that 
is, he tries to quit hi job) he really has nothing actually better to think 
about than wasting androids.  With the voiceover, you instantly have him 
before you as a human being with ordinary concerns that you just don't get 
to see otherwise.  That makes him everyman, if you like, but it doesn't make 
him a hero.  Given the /content/ of the voiceover (never mind whether or not 
it was originally meant to be there), it seems that the intention of the 
film is that Deckard is meant to be seen this way.  The film apparently 
strives to show him working things out because he is a thoughtful man, not 
because he is a dickhead who happened to have a random inspiration while 
terminating his 114th android.  Maybe, to that extent, the voiceover was not 
such a bad idea.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 07:44:07 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Defining SF/Fantasy - Frankenstein
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 12:35:00 BST
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>I don't recall the source, but I believe that the best definition of 
Science
>Fiction that I have read is "If you remove the science from the story and
>there is no story left, then it is science fiction.  For an example, 
consider
>Mary Shelley's _Frankenstein_."  The quote is not exact, but the gist is
>there.

I wish I could remember whose definition that was.

If you remove that tiny bit about lightning, then all you are left with 
(presuming you then create the Creature with magic, say) is...  ooh, well, 
just a little thing about what it means to be a self-aware living being on 
God's Earth, and what it might mean to have brought such a being into 
existence.  Completely different from the result if the bit about lightning 
is left in.

It's like saying that if you remove from Gulliver's Travels the bit about 
WHY Laputa flies through the air it (or that section of it, to be fair) 
loses all its story and therefore stops being SF - which is to miss the 
point of it, rather.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 08:04:53 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF thesaurus-Difference b...
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 12:59:00 BST
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[log in to unmask]:


>Usually, a story containing both fantasy and sci-fi
>elements can be considered sci fi, since SF does not preclude magic, while
>fantasy is firmly rooted into a modern or earlier tech level.  The defining
>factor of SF is technology level, and anything that is neither at a later
>date nor a higher tech level than the time at which it is written is not SF

I'm still uncomfortable with this.  Shaw's series (I do hope it's no more 
than a trilogy, since from a promising start it seemed to collapse) 
beginning with The Ragged Astronauts is, for the most part, ALL ABOUT 
technology, and spaceflight, and interplanetary travel and colonisation, and 
stuff like that, all backed up with plausible and developing science and 
relying in no way on magic or any other deus ex machina.  The technology is 
way, way, BEHIND ours in its level of theoretical sophistication, but, to 
appeal to a definition which I think is far too narrow to be useful in cases 
except cases like this, it IS fiction about the development of plausible 
science.  It isn't anything else.  Primarily technology, physics, 
engineering and a bit of biology.  Take out the science, (to use /another/ 
definition that I actually don't really like!), and you have virtually no 
pages left at all.  It would be a very unstisfactory definition, I think, 
that would "prove" this to be fantasy simply because they still use swords 
and don't even understand the laws of motion (certainly not until the second 
book, at least, and only fleetingly then).

Same argument as that already advanced regarding steampunk, really.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 08:47:53 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF thesaurus-Difference between SF and Fantasy
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:46:59 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "[log in to unmask]" at Jun 23, 95 07:26:42 am
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In the last mail [log in to unmask] said:
> 
  SF takes place in a world more
> technologically advanced than our own.  It is often, but not always, a
> projection of our own future.  Some of the main categories include Space
> Opera(romantic SF such as Star Wars) and cyberpunk(typified by Gibson's
> gritty novels).  Fantasy, on the other hand, takes place in a world less
> technologically advanced than our own.  It has its roots in medieval culture,
> and epics such as beowulf. the classic examples are Lord of the Rings, which
> is epic high fantasy, and the Conan stories, on a swords-and-sorcery level.
> 
How you would describe Mervyn Peake's TITUS GROAN series (last volume of which
is at least mid-20th century cultural level or Mary Gentle's RATS AND GARGOYLES
which is fantasy (sentient bipedal rats: Renaissance heremetic Magic) but
culturally post-Industrial revolution and with references to current atomic-
particle theory? Or stories involving prehistoric speculation such as
William Golding's THE INHERITORS?


-- 
Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool
PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK
0151-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html

"Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight)

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 08:54:41 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Mostly Harmless

Parenthetically, when this book was being originally published (and Adams had 
been amzingly late with the manuscript as usual), there was a rumor that he 
had written most/all/the end of it on his plane trip to the ABA (American 
Booksellers Association) convention in LA.

I find it helps, while reading the last five pages or so, to imagine the 
captain saying something like, "We are now making our final approach into Los 
Angeles International Airport. Please return your trays and seat backs to 
their full upright and locked positions..."


Andy Wheeler

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 08:59:04 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Date: 26 Jun 95  08:56 EST
Subject: Re[2]: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner
To: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id:  <[log in to unmask]>

>Always thought Bladerunner great. Hope the sequeal is half as good.

There is going to be a sequel?  Does anyone know about this?

Michael 

"History has the relation to truth that theology has to religion- 
i.e., none to speak of" - Lazarus Long

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 09:11:40 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: RE SF AND FANTASY DIFFERENCES
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 14:11:17 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "[log in to unmask]" at Jun 25, 95 11:04:28 am
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In the last mail [log in to unmask] said:
> 
> > Why can't they be SF?  Stick a vampire in Gibson's sprawl. 
> > What do you have then? This definition is too narrow and
> > purist.
> 
> Answer: You have SF.  No sound definition of SF requires it to be free of
> what we consider supernatural--after all, luke Skywalker used the Force,
> while Deanna Troi is empathic(a restricted version of telepathy).  The key
> factor in this case is the Gibson's work takes place in the future.
> 
I think this example blows your entire case. Star Wars' "Force" is much closer
to fantasy than science fiction - basically it it just a shorthand for sub-zen
mysticism or God. Science fiction depends upon an assumption that the events
of the story or its "technology" (using that word as a broad term which would
include what we would describe as magic) are explainable by the scientific
method. Part of the fun in reading some vampire stories (eg Suzy Mckee Charnas'
THE VAMPIRE TAPESTRY) is in the way the author speculates about how - given
a vampire - the phenomenon of vampirism could be explainable in rational,
scientific terms. The more plausible the explanation, the closer to SF, but
equally, the less plausible the explanation of something (as in much of Star 
Trek) the closer to fantasy. A vampire in the Sprawl would have to have an explanation
which fitted in with Gibson's concept of the Sprawl (a psychopathic youth-cult
off-shoot, perhaps) otherwise you'd have neither fantasy nor science fiction
but a mess.

All of this discussion is of course provisional: see the quotation below.

-- 
Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool
PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK
0151-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html

"Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight)

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 09:32:54 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF vs. Fantasy, Alternate History Division

Alternate Histories can be set in _any_ historical period, have _any_ level 
of technology and feature _any_ changes to history as we know it. (As long as 
it's convincing.) They are SF (by the definition of just about everyone I 
know of), and so a defintion of SF that excludes some or all of them is 
flawed. The flip side of that is that _every_ definition of SF is flawed. The 
proof that the field is still energetic and thriving is that writers are 
constantly pushing the boundaries of the genre.

You (whoever started this thread -- sorry, I don't have your name handy) are 
confusing science with technology; the two are not the same. What makes SF 
specifically SF is not whiz-bang gadgets but an interest in the laws (of 
history and sociology just as much as physics and chemistry) that make the 
universe operate.

Andy Wheeler

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 10:07:41 1995
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
From: Debbie Jo Halstead <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 10:07:32 EDT
X-Mailer: UVa PCMail 1.9.0
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Mostly Harmless

On Jun 23,  6:45am, [log in to unmask] wrote:
> Subject: Re: Mostly Harmless
> Oh, Mostly Harmless wasn't good, but it wasn't very bad either (maybe only
in
> comparison).  But I was wondering, Adams' endings/resolutions, that I can
> think of, seldom made too much sense to me.  Do others have the same
problem?
>  (Off hand, I think of the Dirk Gently books, RATEOTU, and MH, but its been
a
> while since I've read them.)
> 
> Sean D.
> [log in to unmask]
> -- End of excerpt from [log in to unmask]


I suspect this was Adams point. A brief question: would anyone out there have
any suggestions as to other similarly light (lite?) fare? (I'm trying to
encourage a friend who has [unbelievably] read only one complete novel in her
lifetime -- _Restaurant at the End of the Universe_. She's presently working
on _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency_.) I'm at a loss for similar
stuff beyond Adams that might keep her hooked. Suggestions anyone?

Debbie Jo Halstead



From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 10:13:05 1995
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Sharecropping (was: Wookiebooks)

I don't want to bait Mike Resnick any more than others already have 
(especially since I agree with him in general outline), but I do feel 
compelled to point out that not all work-for-hire books are the same. Just as 
we all feel comfortable making literary judgments about "normal" (creator-
controlled and owned) books, and have been sliding into such judgments on 
films (which have many of the same problems of work-for-hire books, 
exacerbated by the much larger numbers of people involved in ostensibly 
creative work and the possibilities of making huge amounts of cash), we 
should be able to make literary judgments about books featuring, say, Luke 
Skywalker or Doctor Who. And, if we're intellectually honest, the answer 
won't be a dismissive harrumpf (echoing all those Lit-Crit types who look 
down their noses at SF), but a real attempt to judge them reasonably.
                        
Admittedly, Sturgeon's Law operates in this field with a vengeance: I 
wouldn't be willing to admit even 10 % of the tie-in books published are 
actually worth reading. And there is an additional, extra-literary, aspect 
that is vitally related to the possible worth of such a book, even before 
it's written. And that's the willingness of the licensor to allow the writer 
to do his job without their constant interference.

The only media-driven series I've read much of are the Stars Trek and Wars, 
so I'll use them for my examples. Trek is very tightly controlled by 
Paramount Pictures, and the books show it. Nothing is allowed to deviate in 
the slightest from the TV/Movie gospel, and, since more "real" (i.e., movies) 
works are planned, nothing really new can happen. So the very best Trek novel 
(Peter David's _Q-Squared_, is the one I'd pick), is a decent, if flat and 
faintly pointless, novel. Most of them are just silly dreck, despite the best 
efforts of some quite prominent authors (not simply the newcomers, as Resnick 
implied). I don't know why anyone would _want_ to write a Trek novel, except 
for the money: you're not allowed to have anything change and I don't find 
the universe terribly compelling in the first place. But they're all 
bestsellers (NY Times, not simply genre), so my view is the minority one.

Star Wars, on the other hand, has been allowed much greater flexibility by 
Lucasfilm, primarily (I imagine) because George Lucas isn't going to ever 
make another movie with these characters. As long as things end up in the 
right place for his next movie trilogy (set 50 years later or so, I believe), 
it's fine with him. So the characters are allowed to change (not a lot, I'll 
grant you, but their actions have consequences and repercussions and affect 
things in later books). And so the net is set higher. I'd still not claim 
that any Star Wars book could be great, that it would be the kind of thing 
we'd normally discuss here and would have an effect on the history of the 
field, but it is possible to write a good novel set in this universe. Barbara 
Hambly (current President of SFFWA, as it happens) has done one, _Children of 
the Jedi_. And the general run-of-the-mill Star Wars novel is a fun space 
opera, wtihout much depth or weight, but without the feeling of 
meaninglessness that infests Trek. I can understand a writer _wanting_ to 
write a Star Wars book, and actually having an idea that might be fun to 
write, as I can't with Trek.

I guess my point here was just to defend writers who do a sharecropped book 
as not necessarily contributing to the inevitable destruction of themselves 
and the field. Most of these books, admittedly, have no reason to be, are 
consumed by people who don't read much, if any, other SF/Fantasy, and take up 
rack space that we'd all rather see go to original works. But: 1) that's not 
true of all of them, 2) every book bought and read by a TV person is a blow 
for literacy, even if a very light one and 3) as I've written before, more 
original SF/Fantasy is being published than just about any time in the past, 
certainly more than any normal person can read. And most of that is crap, 
too. From the point of view of an typical New SF Writer, whose choice may be 
either A: write a mediocre original novel, see it fail to sell out a 
pessimistic first printing and know things will probably be worse for book # 
2 or B: write a mediocre tie-in novel, make more money even with the tiny 
royalties than you would ever see from an original first novel, and then 
still have the opportunity to go back to A:, the choice isn't really weighted 
on the side of righteousness.


Andy Wheeler

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 10:15:18 1995
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From: Debbie Jo Halstead <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 10:15:15 EDT
X-Mailer: UVa PCMail 1.9.0
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner

On Jun 23,  7:21am, [log in to unmask] wrote:
> Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner
> How does everyone feel about Bladerunner?  It has some good points, and
great
> sets and acting, but the voice-over is corny(even from Harrison Ford), and
> the plot is rather bare-bones in nature.
> This is a bit off the subject, but do you think that it would be possible
and
> feasible to depict netrunning(computer theft a la William Gibson) on the
big
> screen?  That is one of my favorite cyberpunk elements.
> -- End of excerpt from [log in to unmask]


I personally love Bladerunner, well, okay, anything done by Ridley Scott. I
realize that this is a topic that has been beaten to a pulp -- just not here.
Is there a consensus on whether the director's cut or the original theatre
release was the better version? I prefer the director's cut -- darker ending,
makes more sense. (The unicorn makes more sense.) Anybody?

Debbie Jo Halstead



From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 10:15:46 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
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          on Mon Jun 26 09:14:11 1995
To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 09:11 CST
Subject: Trek trivia


    Riverside, Iowa is the "birthplace" of Captain James Tiberius Kirk.
Yes, they have a yearly event celabrating his birthday that includes a 
parade.  I'm sure the chamber of commerce for Riverside will fill you in
on any other information you should need.

Kenneth E. Baker --------------------------------------------------------------
There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the 
Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be 
replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.
     
There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
 from: Restaraunt at the End of the Universe
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
email  [log in to unmask]
snailmail 722 Jefferson Building, Iowa City, Ia 52242
voicemail (319)335-3946
imagemail (319)335-0381

----------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 14:13:59 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Trecky trivia
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>

A quick question - Where was Cpt Kirk born? I know it's in Iowa, and I know a
town in this wonderfull state 'o' mine has managed to lay official claim to
the honor, but I can't find the name of this elusive town! I've heard that
they have an anual 'star-treck & farm-implement' parade/fair thing that helps
them to raise money for stuff like park equipment, and I'd love to drive out
to see it.
If someone can think of the name, I can contact the chamber (and/or drive out
there) to find out the rest of the info about the town - for anyone
interested.

Thanks!
Adora
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 10:24:32 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Guns of the South
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 15:23:00 BST
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Encoding: 15 TEXT
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Colleen:

>I found the description of _Guns of the South_ and the technology listed
>very interesting.  During the Civil War, dehydrated food was in existance
>and was issued to the Northern troops.  Granted, it was horrible; the
>compressed vegetable blocks were call desiccated vegetables, but referred
>to by the soldiers as desecrated vegetables.

Not "defecated"?

Just a silly obvious attempt at a joke.  Sorry...


          Dave

From cstu  Mon Jun 26 12:01:55 1995
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From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: RE: Women in Sci-Fi (fwd by moderator)
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 10:27:45 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: RE: Women in Sci-Fi

   I believe in Elizabeth Moon's "Sassinac" that the female protagonist
didn't have a written sexual encounter.



From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 10:41:14 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:41:04 -0300 (ADT)
From: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ancient fantasy literature
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I think this would be a very dubious approach. Surely the term _fantasy_ 
implies some kind of consciousness that the "literature" is not congruent 
with the lifeworld of the person producing it. And wouldn't most 
mythologies be oral transmissions rather than written "literature"?

*****************************************************************
patricia monk (dr)                              [log in to unmask]
                   "just visiting this planet"
*****************************************************************


On Mon, 26 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> Couldn't all mythological liturature be considered fantasy.
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 10:45:43 1995
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          on Mon Jun 26 09:41:13 1995
To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 09:37 CST
Subject: Re: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner



[log in to unmask] wrote.....
>Johnny M was horrific. Nothing about or in the film was of value.

This message is horrific.  Nothing about or in the message is of value.

Johnny M had a lot more content that this message, and a lot more to
think about.  Please, if you are going to take the time to post your
opinion, give us the reasoning behind said opinion.

Kenneth E. Baker
email     [log in to unmask]                        |\      _,,,--,,_  ,)
snailmail 722 Jefferson Building, Iowa City, Ia 52242    /,`.-'`'   -,  ;-;;'
voicemail (319)335-3946                                 |,4-  ) )-,_ ) /\
imagemail (319)335-0381                                '---''(_/--' (_/-'

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 11:00:17 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 11:00:08 EDT
From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: written vs. films

> 
> Marina: >> "If writing about borrowed characters in borrowed settings is
> so stifling to creativity, why are you so excited about writing a Sherlock
> Holmes story in another writer's style?" <<
> 
> Because 1) it took me 2 hours, not a huge chunk of my creative life; 
> 2) I've written over 50 novels and 150 stories in my own universes, so
> I don't think my creativity is being stifled at this late date; 3) writing
> one story of 5000 words in the style of Thorne Smith is -not- the same
> as writing 100 uncreative novels in the imagined style of Gene Roddenbury.
> 
> Trust this answers your question/objection/whatever.
> 
> -- Mike Resnick
> 

Well, it answers my question, but I can't say I agree with the answer.
First of all, I doubt that writing a tie-in novel has taken a huge
chunk of anyone's creative life.  I don't know about the Wookiebooks,
but Pocket's publishing schedule for Trek books requires that Trek
authors must be extremely fast and prolific.  Most of them have plenty
of other projects going, too, so I don't think their creativity is
being greatly stifled.  Also, no one person has written 100 Trek novels,
or anywhere near that number -- not even Peter David, my nominee for
"the fastest in the business."

Mind you, I'm not defending the literary quality of tie-ins.  Most of
them are crap, though an occasional good one appears here and there.
I just don't agree that they're the Great Creeping Evil out to destroy
science fiction.

Marina Frants
[log in to unmask]
From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 11:03:28 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Steampunk
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 16:00:00 BST
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Encoding: 11 TEXT
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>Steampunk is SF, unless it is at or below the present technology level, in
>which case it is neither.

Just how is "steampunk" (however we decide to define it, among the few 
definitons I've heard) /ever/ going to be at a "lower" level?

The common categorical premise that gives rise to the name seems to make 
this a difficult thing to understand.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 11:03:35 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Magic vs supernatural
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 16:00:00 BST
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>If it is in the future, it is SF, and that includes post-apocalyptic.
>


What if you can't tell?  If you reads half of Piers Anthony's Battle Circle 
sequence, is it fantasy until you get proof that it's post-apocalytptic? 
 And once you've discovered that it is, is it important to the story that 
it's something posited as being in our own future?  What about 
post-apocalyptic or vastly technological things set in our past?  Like Star 
Wars.  That long, long ago, completely non-SF film that we all know so well 
as a great mythological fantasy.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 11:23:21 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 16:16:00 BST
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Encoding: 21 TEXT
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>Everyone who says that SF must be dependent on Science should see the Star
>Wars trilogy.  It is SF, although there is nothing scientific about it.  SF
>got its name at a time when it was a vehicle for predicting the future.
> Let's face the facts: not all visions of the future have solid scientific
>bases.  They are still SF.


"Long, long ago, in a galaxy far, far away..."

You do appear to be appealing to the explicit setting of the story in 
absolute relation to our own time and situation, even to the extent of 
legislating for future but primitive societies.  Even accepting (as I would, 
quite happily) the lack of a rule that says one needs to prove that the 
science will work, if the premise can be undermined so easily by one of the 
most famous introductions in film history, the definition to hand seems to 
be a little lacking.  This isn't to say that it's necessarily wrong in a 
really important way, but it doesn't seem quite to have hit the mark as 
stated.

          Dave
From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 11:36:37 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy (fwd)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 16:30:00 BST
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From: [log in to unmask]:

>The thing is, some of the topics are neither.
>For example, let's take Star Trek. Is it SF or F ?
>IMHO, it is F.
>And please, do not reply in a form "I hate TV, it's not real sf, it's all
>bogus", I _KNOW_ how you feel :-)


Doesn't work with my definition, since nothing happens to the characters and 
the whole thing seems concerned with backfilling its own pseudotechnological 
premises all the time - I reckon that's to do with the most shallow form of 
SF there is.  But that's neither here nor there:  maybe it's just shallow F. 
 Difficult to tell with so little water to examine, it seems to me.  And it 
all depends on who's watching and from which direction, anyway.  Besides, it 
can be a fun way to spend an undemanding 45 minutes, occasionally.

          Dave
From cstu  Mon Jun 26 13:23:55 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:23:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Why I brough up SF vs. F ... (fwd by moderator)
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Why I brought up SF vs. F...
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 16:30:00 BST


>>I was not saying that never the twain shall meet.  However, i am offering
>>this challenge: summarize a setting, and I will tell you whether it's
>fantasy
>>or SF, and justify my answer.  Blast away.
>Impossible. It is not possible to know a book or a movie or whatever to be 
F
>or SF by setting _alone_. Example: Simak. Most of his books start of as SF
>and go into F... "The Goblin Reservation".
>


Enchanted Pilgrimage.  One of my favourites.  (OK - tell me it wasn't 
Simak...)

          Dave


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 11:41:19 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 11:41:13 EDT
From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF vs. Fantasy, Alternate History Division


> Alternate Histories can be set in _any_ historical period, have _any_ level 
> of technology and feature _any_ changes to history as we know it. (As long as 
> it's convincing.) They are SF (by the definition of just about everyone I 
> know of), and so a defintion of SF that excludes some or all of them is 
> flawed. 

  But what if the alternate history includes magic?  John M. Ford's 
_The Dragon Waiting_ is a very convincing, thoughtfully established
alternate history set in an Early Renaissaice Europe where the Roman
empire never fell and Christianity never really caught on except as
a fringe cult.  But it's still a fantasy, with magic playing a large part
in the resolution of the plot.

Marina Frants
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 11:51:58 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 11:51:34 EDT
From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Mostly Harmless

> I suspect this was Adams point. A brief question: would anyone out there have
> any suggestions as to other similarly light (lite?) fare? (I'm trying to
> encourage a friend who has [unbelievably] read only one complete novel in her
> lifetime -- _Restaurant at the End of the Universe_. She's presently working
> on _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency_.) I'm at a loss for similar
> stuff beyond Adams that might keep her hooked. Suggestions anyone?

I'd suggest _Good Omens_, by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett. (sp?)  I haven't
read Pratchett's other stuff, but I'm told it's in a similar vein to Adams,
except it's fantasy rather than SF.  Good Omens is certainly very funny.

Marina Frants
[log in to unmask]

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 12:04:01 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tie-In Novels
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 17:02:05 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" at Jun 26, 95 10:42:24 am
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In the last mail D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple said:
> 
> 
> Brenda Daverin, [log in to unmask]:
> 
> 
> >minimum. There have been, and likely only will be, three B5 novels and a 
> four
> >or five-part comic miniseries. Rather civilized of him, I'd say.
> 
> I'd support this one.  As far as I'm concerned the guy is a real (not to 
> mention talented) writer trying quite successfully to do something new and 
> important for SF in the difficult and unforgiving world of serial TV.  He 
> passes out stories for around a third of the episodes, to be written up by 
> selected guest writers, and writes the rest himself.  He also keeps an eye 
> on anything else produced (and comes down VERY hard on anyone putting out 
> anything unauthorised) while keeping the volume low overall.  (He's writing 
> about half the comics as well, by the way.)  The story will take five years 
> to tell, assuming it gets picked up for its final two seasons (just has been 
> for the third).  This is the nature of the project.  Personally I'm avid to 
> see how this project survives, and pleased to see what it is trying to do to 
> and for the genre.

I am without doubt a fan of the TV series Babylon 5 and agree with what's
been written above: I think for once we have someone who is prepared to
use some intelligence and storytelling skill to flesh out the series. It's
also been brilliantly marketed to appeal to the "literate media fan", but
that's part of its appeal. I've only read one of the novelisations, however,
and it didn't seem to me to be any different in essence from any other
novelisation I'd read. I like the TV series a lot, but have no real desire
to follow it up in book form - there are many more imaginative books, it seems
to me, than the one B5 spinoff I read. But then, I rarely read spinoffs anyway:
I tend to agree with what Mike has said. Let's give some people a chance to
do their OWN things.

-- 
Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool
PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK
0151-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html

"Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight)

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 12:12:16 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:12:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: rscott@bigcat
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: written vs. films
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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> >>The Star Wars books, for example: Have you read them all?<< You must be
> kidding, right? I haven't read the Collected Little Lulu, either.

That's fine, if not particularly relevant.

Would you call Miller's The Dark Knight Returns unoriginal?

> >>Does it take more nebulously defined 'talent' to write in someone
> else's universe, or make up a boring mediocre one of your own?<< Well,
> that's certainly not a lopsided, loaded question, is it? I don't
> still beat my wife, either.
> 
This wasn't aimed at you, as I said. I can't remember off-hand anything I 
have read of yours. I probably have, just don't remember.

> >>Characters obviously grow and change. Luke becomes a master...<< Well,
> that puts fini to Eugene Gant and Robert E. Lee Prewitt; Luke becomes
> a master. Can't argue against deep, meaningful changes like that.
> 

That's not all, obviously, Mike, just an example. Making/establishing a 
school? Is that change? Meaningful? You tell me.


So you have wars, new planets, worlds destroyed, leaders changing, all 
that sort of stuff. 

Look at a lot of books considered deep and meaningful with a couple of 
guys sitting and talking. Not much change there, is there?
If that is a definition of meaningful change then a lot of books are 
sadly lacking.
.

I'm not saying they are the best books ever written, or great, or 
anything. They aren't. They are average. However, they *are* better than 
a lot of original stuff, and worse than a lot of other original stuff. 
Whether by new writers acknowledged 'masters' or whatever.

Dismissal out of hand is annoying, and is what happens to SF a lot, period.

If that is your opinion that they are all a waste of space, that is fine.

As to new writers getting published and not wanting to work in other 
people's universes, a lot of writers aren't going to get published 
because of their sex/race/economic status and who they know, too.



From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 12:13:23 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:13:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: rscott@bigcat
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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That is a helluva condemning definition, isn't it? Gonna make a lot of 
people mad. :-)

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place

On Sun, 25 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> 
> I don't recall the source, but I believe that the best definition of Science
> Fiction that I have read is "If you remove the science from the story and
> there is no story left, then it is science fiction.  For an example, consider
> Mary Shelley's _Frankenstein_."  The quote is not exact, but the gist is
> there.
> 
> 

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 12:20:34 1995
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          id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 95 17:19:56 BST
From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: Re[2]: Written vs. Films, TV, etc....Blade Runner
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 17:17:00 BST
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Encoding: 16 TEXT
X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0


>>Always thought Bladerunner great. Hope the sequeal is half as good.
>
>There is going to be a sequel?  Does anyone know about this?


There are rumours of Ridley Scott maybe thinking about one day considering 
doing something a bit like it.  The rumours are, predictably, more concerned 
with who is meant to be paying for it and when it might get off the ground 
than they are with anything about the film that might actually result from 
it.

I can't help hoping they leave it alone.  As it is, it's a fine piece about 
the rights of people.  I don't really want to see a related adventure.

          Dave

From shal  Mon Jun 26 12:22:30 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:22:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Stephanie A. Hall" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit listserv <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: SF and Fantasy on the same shelves
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Well, one answer to why SF and fantasy wind up on the same shelves in 
libraries and bookstores is obvious from the discussion -- if this group 
has some problems telling exactly where the lines are between the genres, 
then so do publishers, booksellers, and librarians.  We can all think of 
examples that typify one genre or the other, but there are plenty that 
don't neatly fit in either catagory.

Another reason this happens is that publishers and booksellers find it 
lucrative to put the stuff on the same shelves because, many times the 
same people read (and buy) both.  Some things that appear on the sf 
bookshelves only if you understand their presence there in terms of marketing. 
For example, Pat Murphey's _Falling Woman_, in my opinion, is a modern 
novel -- a good one, and one that sf and fantasy fans are likely to enjoy --
but neither fantasy nor sf (I know some fantasy fans may disaggree -- but 
Murphey does not require the reader to believe that the archeologist 
protagonist is actually talking to the people she digs up, just that she 
believes she is. There are plenty examples of this in real archeology -- but 
I'm digressing). Anyway, Pat Murphey mainly writes SF and has an SF 
following, and so her books are marketed on the SF shelves -- even this 
one. 

Another point is that there is a lot of experimental fiction on the SF 
shelves (which I personally enjoy a great deal). Experimental stuff is 
hard to catagorize.  

If I can't figure out if a book is SF or fanasy or something in between, 
I read the blurb on the back, or the dust jacket, and the first page, and 
use that to figure it out.  I think other readers do the same. 

SF is just not one genre -- it is a collection of overlapping genres that 
interact with each other, bouncing off each other in rather wonderful 
ways. This may make the great mass of stuff that falls under that 
category hard to sift through, but it can also be a very good thing.

Stephanie

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist           The Library of Congress
American Folklife Center               preserves and houses
Library of Congress                    countless ideas and opinions.
Washington, DC 20540-8100              Those expressed here 
[log in to unmask]                           are my own.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


MESSAGE REPLIED TO:

Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:16:02 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Why I brought up SF vs. Fantasy
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>

Since this subject has provoked discussion, i'd like to explain why i brought
it up.  I work in a library where there is an SF section, but no fantasy
section.  All of the fantasy has "Science Fiction" stamped on the spines, and
goes in the SF section.  This really annoys me, because it seems to be
implying, "What?  Fantasy?  Oh, that's just another kind of Sci Fi.  Same
difference." 

I was not saying that never the twain shall meet.  However, i am offering
this challenge: summarize a setting, and I will tell you whether it's fantasy
or SF, and justify my answer.  Blast away.

------------------------------



From cstu  Mon Jun 26 19:24:30 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 19:24:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: SF and Fantasy on the same shelves (Fwd from moderator)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 12:22:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Stephanie A. Hall" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: SF and Fantasy on the same shelves


Well, one answer to why SF and fantasy wind up on the same shelves in 
libraries and bookstores is obvious from the discussion -- if this group 
has some problems telling exactly where the lines are between the genres, 
then so do publishers, booksellers, and librarians.  We can all think of 
examples that typify one genre or the other, but there are plenty that 
don't neatly fit in either catagory.

Another reason this happens is that publishers and booksellers find it 
lucrative to put the stuff on the same shelves because, many times the 
same people read (and buy) both.  Some things that appear on the sf 
bookshelves only if you understand their presence there in terms of marketing. 
For example, Pat Murphey's _Falling Woman_, in my opinion, is a modern 
novel -- a good one, and one that sf and fantasy fans are likely to enjoy --
but neither fantasy nor sf (I know some fantasy fans may disaggree -- but 
Murphey does not require the reader to believe that the archeologist 
protagonist is actually talking to the people she digs up, just that she 
believes she is. There are plenty examples of this in real archeology -- but 
I'm digressing). Anyway, Pat Murphey mainly writes SF and has an SF 
following, and so her books are marketed on the SF shelves -- even this 
one. 

Another point is that there is a lot of experimental fiction on the SF 
shelves (which I personally enjoy a great deal). Experimental stuff is 
hard to catagorize.  

If I can't figure out if a book is SF or fanasy or something in between, 
I read the blurb on the back, or the dust jacket, and the first page, and 
use that to figure it out.  I think other readers do the same. 

SF is just not one genre -- it is a collection of overlapping genres that 
interact with each other, bouncing off each other in rather wonderful 
ways. This may make the great mass of stuff that falls under that 
category hard to sift through, but it can also be a very good thing.

Stephanie

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist           The Library of Congress
American Folklife Center               preserves and houses
Library of Congress                    countless ideas and opinions.
Washington, DC 20540-8100              Those expressed here 
[log in to unmask]                           are my own.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


MESSAGE REPLIED TO:

Date: Sun, 25 Jun 1995 00:16:02 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Why I brought up SF vs. Fantasy
Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]>

Since this subject has provoked discussion, i'd like to explain why i brought
it up.  I work in a library where there is an SF section, but no fantasy
section.  All of the fantasy has "Science Fiction" stamped on the spines, and
goes in the SF section.  This really annoys me, because it seems to be
implying, "What?  Fantasy?  Oh, that's just another kind of Sci Fi.  Same
difference." 

I was not saying that never the twain shall meet.  However, i am offering
this challenge: summarize a setting, and I will tell you whether it's fantasy
or SF, and justify my answer.  Blast away.

------------------------------




From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 12:24:02 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:24:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
X-Sender: rscott@bigcat
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950626112146.12238F-100000@bigcat>
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About Sean D and SF being very different from reality, or no fiction 
every taking place ....

Well, fiction is made up, right? So obviously from the meaning of the 
word it is not 'real'. But it is not necessarily very different.

i.e. look at the movie _Outbreak_ or a similar sort of book. Not so 
different, really, at all. Just a little tweak. Plus the usual Hollywood 
silliness (which if you *really* want to talk about stifling 
creativity... :-) )

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 12:32:51 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: RE SF AND FANTASY DIFFERENCES
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 95 17:30:00 BST
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Encoding: 56 TEXT
X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0


Andy Sawyer:

>In the last mail [log in to unmask] said:
>>
>> > Why can't they be SF?  Stick a vampire in Gibson's sprawl.
>> > What do you have then? This definition is too narrow and
>> > purist.
>>
>> Answer: You have SF.  No sound definition of SF requires it to be free of
>> what we consider supernatural--after all, luke Skywalker used the Force,
>> while Deanna Troi is empathic(a restricted version of telepathy).  The 
key
>> factor in this case is the Gibson's work takes place in the future.
>>
>I think this example blows your entire case. Star Wars' "Force" is much 
closer
>to fantasy than science fiction - basically it it just a shorthand for 
sub-zen
>mysticism or God. Science fiction depends upon an assumption that the 
events
>of the story or its "technology" (using that word as a broad term which 
would
>include what we would describe as magic) are explainable by the scientific
>method. Part of the fun in reading some vampire stories (eg Suzy Mckee
>Charnas'
>THE VAMPIRE TAPESTRY) is in the way the author speculates about how - given
>a vampire - the phenomenon of vampirism could be explainable in rational,
>scientific terms. The more plausible the explanation, the closer to SF, but
>equally, the less plausible the explanation of something (as in much of 
Star
>Trek) the closer to fantasy. A vampire in the Sprawl would have to have an
>explanation
>which fitted in with Gibson's concept of the Sprawl (a psychopathic 
youth-cult
>off-shoot, perhaps) otherwise you'd have neither fantasy nor science 
fiction
>but a mess.
>
>All of this discussion is of course provisional: see the quotation below.


I agree with all of your points, Andy.  I just couldn't see which bits of 
the above to cut that would make it obvious why I might mention Barbara 
Hambly's novel Immortal Blood.  There /are/ vampires.  Of the traditional 
sort.  But someone's killing them.  Actually it's another vampire.  Actually 
no - it's someone who's been turned into a kind of creature that needs to 
drink blood - preferably that of the kind of creature we call "vampire".  In 
fact, there's a mad scientists in the background.  He did this.  Fortunately 
there's an arch-sleuth in the foreground to clear the whole thing up.  Lots 
of fun to read.  Totally at odds with any technology- or timeframe-based 
definition of SF or fantasy or anything else.  It can't matter as long as 
you know how it fits into your own reading (if you have any reason to care 
at all, even).

          Dave
From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 12:33:23 1995
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: written vs. films
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> True, Roddenbury didn't write any Trekbooks. But as any writer who had
> to deal with his company will be happy to tell you, he exercised even
> more control over what could and couldn't happen in a Trekbook than in
> a Trek tv show. Some, like George Effinger, simple refused to do it and
> never handed their manuscripts in.
>
Yep, there is definitely a controlling element. As someone pointed out, 
more control exercised in Trek than Star Wars. Then you could use the 
example of _Wild Cards_ to go to the other end of the spectrum of 
control. A series of novels based  on one gaming groups game. However, 
these don't seem stifling to creativity. (which I agree somewhat with 
Mike, but not as completely as he puts it) Constraints are there in lots 
of things. As you use the example of GAE there, you don't have to do it.
Can you eliminate them, though? Probably not. Is it possible for 
established people like yourselves to pressure publishers to publish new 
original stuff? Or refuse to write for publishers who publish this? One 
possible course of action.

 
> Obviously you've never written a novel...but let me tell you: the fact
> that a fast, competent writer can do a 5,000 word story in 2 hours does
> NOT mean he can write a 100,000-word novel in 40 hours. A novel is a
> far more complex piece of work, and if he's attacking it with any
> degree of literary ambition whatsoever, it's going to take MONTHS, not
> hours.
> 

Very true, but still the story stifles a little bit of your creativity.
Interesting question : a novel like a SW book - do you think that would 
be quicker to write, and hence less a drain on creativity than an 
original book? If you are working on a project for months, will that 
repress other ideas you could possibly have/get out, if you can write or 
type faster? Be interested to hear your opinions here Mike.


> Also, I do not hold myself up as a typical writer. Except for perhaps
> Barry Malzberg and possibly Kris Rusch, I'm the fastest in the business.
> MANY short stories take weeks, not hours; some take months. My Hugo winners
> took 2 and 3 nights respectively, and my current Nebula-winning novella
> for one week; I've known writers to spend half a year producing the same
> number of pages, and not winning anything in the process.
> 
> -- Mike Resnick


Yes, I realise this. 5000 words of coherence in 2 hours is pretty impressive.
Roughly 40 wpm of originality. Pretty good for thinking and typing at the 
same time.

Richard Scott

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 12:33:23 1995
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: written vs. films
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> True, Roddenbury didn't write any Trekbooks. But as any writer who had
> to deal with his company will be happy to tell you, he exercised even
> more control over what could and couldn't happen in a Trekbook than in
> a Trek tv show. Some, like George Effinger, simple refused to do it and
> never handed their manuscripts in.
>
Yep, there is definitely a controlling element. As someone pointed out, 
more control exercised in Trek than Star Wars. Then you could use the 
example of _Wild Cards_ to go to the other end of the spectrum of 
control. A series of novels based  on one gaming groups game. However, 
these don't seem stifling to creativity. (which I agree somewhat with 
Mike, but not as completely as he puts it) Constraints are there in lots 
of things. As you use the example of GAE there, you don't have to do it.
Can you eliminate them, though? Probably not. Is it possible for 
established people like yourselves to pressure publishers to publish new 
original stuff? Or refuse to write for publishers who publish this? One 
possible course of action.

 
> Obviously you've never written a novel...but let me tell you: the fact
> that a fast, competent writer can do a 5,000 word story in 2 hours does
> NOT mean he can write a 100,000-word novel in 40 hours. A novel is a
> far more complex piece of work, and if he's attacking it with any
> degree of literary ambition whatsoever, it's going to take MONTHS, not
> hours.
> 

Very true, but still the story stifles a little bit of your creativity.
Interesting question : a novel like a SW book - do you think that would 
be quicker to write, and hence less a drain on creativity than an 
original book? If you are working on a project for months, will that 
repress other ideas you could possibly have/get out, if you can write or 
type faster? Be interested to hear your opinions here Mike.


> Also, I do not hold myself up as a typical writer. Except for perhaps
> Barry Malzberg and possibly Kris Rusch, I'm the fastest in the business.
> MANY short stories take weeks, not hours; some take months. My Hugo winners
> took 2 and 3 nights respectively, and my current Nebula-winning novella
> for one week; I've known writers to spend half a year producing the same
> number of pages, and not winning anything in the process.
> 
> -- Mike Resnick


Yes, I realise this. 5000 words of coherence in 2 hours is pretty impressive.
Roughly 40 wpm of originality. Pretty good for thinking and typing at the 
same time.

Richard Scott

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 12:39:21 1995
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 2001 and Blade Runner
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re: film length 2001 etc.

To dismiss a film as too long is also catering to attention spans that 
are very short and Hollywood/movie theatre desires to hvae sub 2 hour 
stuff so they can make more money, too. If it is too long and _boring_ 
and padded that is different, but length is not a bad thing in and of itself.

Most people read slower than I do, as most people write slower than Mike 
Resnick does. So for them, reading a several hundred page book will take 
quite a while. The length of the undertaking is not relevant to the 
quality of the work, unless the length detracts as above.

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 12:47:24 1995
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From: "Brian Attebery" <[log in to unmask]>
Organization:  Idaho State University
To: [log in to unmask]
Date:          Mon, 26 Jun 1995 10:53:25 MST
Subject:       RE: SF v. Fantasy
Priority: normal
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Are genres really categories, or are they ways of reading and
writing? If the latter, it doesn't make sense to argue about whether
a particular story is SF or fantasy.  Instead, a book like Gene
Wolfe's _Book of the New Sun_ can be approached by saying, "Well, it
functions like fantasy in these ways and like SF in those other
ways."  

Brian Attebery
([log in to unmask])

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 13:01:15 1995
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From: [log in to unmask] (set chaos/total)
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Subject: Poetry
X-Vms-To: SMTP%"[log in to unmask]"
X-Vms-Cc: NABADM

I have occasionally come across some selections of SF poetry, e.g., David
Gerrold's "The Badlands", some stuff by Joe Haldeman, but only very
occasionally.  Are there any anthologies of or sources for SF poetry out there?

Nancy


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 13:25:43 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy
To: [log in to unmask]
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Leaving aside the fact that all these computer-operated weapons keep
missing the good guys, and that the Force, such as it is, is a fantasy
device, consider the end of the third movie: poor Luke is going to
be a table for 4 wherever he goes for the rest of his life. You think
that's sf and not fantasy?

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 13:35:53 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:35:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Sharecropping (was: Wookiebooks)
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Andy Wheeler: I go for the even more basic question than whether media
books are worth reading, and ask whether they're worth writing. As someone
who turned down offers last year to do both a Trekbook and a Wookie trilogy,
you can guess my answer.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 13:42:43 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 13:42:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
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>>I just don't agree that they [media books] are the Great Creeping Evil
out to destroy science fiction.<<

The Great Creeping Evil out to destroy science fiction is economics.
Media books are just one of its weapons.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 13:52:24 1995
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From: Teresa J Warren <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Sharecropping (was: Wookiebooks)
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I'd also like to point out that three TREK-book writers -- Diane Duane, 
Alan Dean Foster and Peter David -- made their initial niche in writing 
TREK stuff, wrote some unique stories in those books (Peter David's 
IZMADI and Q-SQUARED and Foster's adaptations/expansions of the cartoon 
series of the early 70's), and went on to write more books OUTSIDE the 
sub-genre.  Has these three writers' quality of work suffered?  I think not!


Gary L. Warren


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 14:18:35 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: re: Lambor's definition of SF

OK, time for a little syllogysm:

Major Premise: SF writers, editors, critics and noted fans have always (with 
few eceptions) categorized Alternate Histories as SF.

Minor Premise: Your simplified categorization (i.e., SF is fiction set 
chronologically letter than the date it was written) denies that Alternate 
Histories are SF.

Your Conclusion: Alternate Histories aren't SF

Everyone Else's Conclusion: Your categorization is too simple, since it fails 
a simple "real-world" test.


Andy Wheeler
                                    

P.S. What about time travel stories?

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 14:23:01 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 14:23:00 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Pulp books series & catagorization

But when we talk Trek and Wookiecrap, we're talking about books for the adult
(or teen, which takes up the same rack space) market...and it's -here- where
they shut the new writers out (unless said writers are willing to stifle
their creativity and tell Trek and Wookie stories), and virtually murder the
midlist.
************************
I agree with you on this point - from the perspective of a writer and a
confirmed bookworm. However, as I stated in an earlier post, there are people
who simply don't take the time out of their day to read the kind of things
that a confirmed bookworm may tend to devour (never mind all of the awards
any given novel may have recieved), yet will read this trek and wookie stuff.
So, I guess the real question is, are the publishers justified in putting out
all of this pulp?
Is there a good segment of the population that is either uninterested in, or
incapable of, reading something that is more mentally stimulating and not
based on a movie (therby providing the 'visual' basis and background for your
characters and requiring your mind to work even *less*). And, if these
strings of mindless novels didn't exist *would* this portion of the reading
public pick up something else to replace it - would we care if they didn't?
I believe someone mentioned dumbing down movies, perhaps the same has
happened (or is happening) to books.

0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

>Bookstores also create categories such as "Science Fiction" >or "Fantasy"
and sometimes lump the two together in a big F & >SF section, and you can
also find in them the sort of >mismatches I mentioned above.
*******************************
This brings up a little pet peeve of mine own. I've gone looking for a
particular author (ie: Tony Hillerman, N. Scott Momaday, Ellison) in various
mall bookstores, and when I browsed the subject headings (mystery, fiction) I
could find none of the above. When I asked the clerks for help they directed
me to the sociology section - why? because the authors &/or books have Native
American or African American authors and/or characters.
Perhaps all of the above mentioned problems could be avoided if the
publishers would 'brand' the books themselves - preferably with the specified
approval of the author?

Adora
[log in to unmask]
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From: Richard Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Science Fiction and Fantasy Listserv

About Sean D and SF being very different from reality, or no fiction 
every taking place ....

Well, fiction is made up, right? So obviously from the meaning of the 
word it is not 'real'. But it is not necessarily very different.

i.e. look at the movie _Outbreak_ or a similar sort of book. Not so 
different, really, at all. Just a little tweak. Plus the usual Hollywood 
silliness (which if you *really* want to talk about stifling 
creativity... :-) )

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 14:23:18 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Women in SF

Has anyone ever read a scinece fiction story where the protagnist is a female
and doesn't have a sexual encounter?  This isn't a question of prejudice,
 but curiosity.  I've just written such a story, and thought of this while
editing it for submission.
 ********************
If you don't mind branching off into SF drama, Caryl Churchill's _Moving
Clocks Go Slow_ has three very strong women and (if I recall correctly) no
sexual encounters.

00000000000000000000000000000000000000

>Asimov's Susan Calvin
*********************
Do you really think Susan Calvin is a good example? She was such a
stereotypically frigid female scientist. 
Granted, she  only had one 'love interest' in _I, Robot_ but even that was
the 'woman meets a handsome man and falls head over silly heels for him,
therby threatening her career, and then lashes out in viscious anger when she
realizes she's not pretty enough or silly enough for him' plot.
It would seem that Susan Calvin is the opposit to the 'breeder' streotype -
the smart, and therby sexually uninteresting, woman.

Of course, this is all IMHO.

Adora
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 14:28:43 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: re: definition of fiction

DANES4 defined fiction as "something that couldn't/didn't exist." What about 
the _roman a clef_? What about all those dreary auobiographical novels by Big 
Famous Literary Authors? The only reason anyone reads them is because they've 
been told that the stories are true.


Andy Wheeler

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 15:35:22 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: women protagonists

I believe Nancy Kress has written such stories.

Sean D.

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 15:35:29 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 2001

>I can't think of any other movie, SF or not, ever, that captiaved my (and
many, many others') attention the way 2001 did.  Further, the film
accomplished that task without the aid of a significant evil presence, gaudy
love interest or amazingly involved story line.  This film is the very
embodiment of pure, pure science fiction.  This film is about life,
questions, humanity and the force that creates humanity, thought.

>To dismiss it as cerebral, too long or too abstract (if you want to see real
abstraction, read the first chapter of the Silmarillion by J.R.R. Tolkein)
indicates a pre-defined expectation for what Science Fiction ought to be.
 Don't get me wrong, I love the big SF hits (movies and otherwise,) but this
film, along with Star Wars and Blade Runner define a triumverate of SF movie
masterpieces without which the SF realm would not be complete.

   Yes, 2001 was an accomplishment.  My intention was not to dismiss it.  It
is not, in my opinion, a pre-defined expectation for what science fiction
ought to be (other postings show I haven't quite figured out HOW to define
SF) as it is a matter of taste.
   I enjoy characters as real people.  I did not enjoy the abstraction of the
main character (his name is Bowman, right?) to represent everybody.  It was
too long.  It did not involve me EMOTIONALLY.  I don't mean I expected a
tearjerker.  But I do want to care about what is happening on the screen.
 THAT was my real problem with 2001.
   I enjoyed the movie, and it was good.  But it did, to me, have problems.

Sean D.

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 15:35:36 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 2001 and Everyman

>Regarding A.C. Clarke's _2001_, Sean D. complained about the
characters being too symbolic to care about on a human level
(hope I got that right.)  Moonwatcher and Bowman symbolize
humanity (past and present, quite obviously.)  Color me corney
but if one cannot work up some support for this human's race,
as a whole, wouldn't that call into suspicion any sort of "caring"
such a personage may profess for a supposedly sympathetic member of said
race?

Sigh.
  Yes, I'm really a super-mutated, highly intelligent lizard.  I haven't
cared for a character in the media since those cute aliens on "V."
   I have seldom enjoyed the "Everyman" type guy (hey, I can't think of a
single Everywoman.  Can anyone come up with a woman who's role represents not
just women, but the whole human race?).
   Anyway, these symbols have never affected me (The most recent such
character I read like that was Aeneas from the Aeneid.  I mention it because
in the class, we discussed something along these lines (and I detested Aeneas
for the majority of the thing)).  I find them cold and heartless in their
effort to represent me and everybody else on this planet.  Soemtimes this is
all right for the story, but most of the time they end up as homogenized
nothings, no personality.  I often could care less about such a character.
 That's what I mean.  I find characters a very important part of the story.

Sean D.

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 15:59:29 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
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Subject: Re: Artificial men

oh, i'm sorry. i though this string was about my boyfriend.

allgrill

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 16:03:02 1995
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Subject: Re: Abominations done in publ...

I don't know... My local library also, as you would say, "lumped F and SF"
together, but I kind of like it. Instead of thinking which section they
might've put _the City_ in, I just go and look up S for Simak. Easier...
And BTW, what is Dewrey Decimal System ??? A library programming language ?


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 16:56:16 1995
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From: [log in to unmask] (Ed McKnight)
Subject: Re: Alternate Histories and SF

[log in to unmask] wrote:

>Question: Is the "Alternate History" story taking place in an alternate
>history at a higher technology level than our own?  if so, it is SF.  If not,
>assuming that it contains no magic, it is neither SF nor fantasy--it's just a
>creatively twisted setting.

Given your definition of SF as taking place "either at a later date or a
higher tech level than the time at which it is written" most alternative
histories would not be not SF, including Gibson and Sterling's THE
DIFFERENCE ENGINE (set in a 19th century more advanced than our 19th century
but less advanced than the present).  You may be right about alternative
history; it is really a separate genre which began independently of SF in
the 19th century and later merged with it.  

Ed McKnight  -  [log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 16:56:18 1995
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From: [log in to unmask] (Ed McKnight)
Subject: Re: SF and Fantasy

 [log in to unmask] also wrote:

> Usually, a story containing both fantasy and sci-fi elements can be
considered sci fi, >since SF does not preclude magic, while fantasy is
firmly rooted into a modern or >earlier tech level.  The defining factor of
SF is technology level, and anything that is >neither at a later date nor a
higher tech level than the time at which it is written is not >SF.

I am intrigued by the notion that SF and fantasy can be distinguished by the
level of technology they display or the time in which they are set.  I
wholeheartedly agree with you that to classify fantasy as science fiction is
absurd, even for shelving purposes, but I don't agree that "the defining
factor of SF is technology level."  I've previously mentioned Turtledove's
AGENT OF BYZANTIUM as an example of SF set in a technologically backward
past (though not our past, and more advanced than our past actually was).
In fact Turtledove's historically uprooted 13th century strikes me as the
archetypal fantasy setting, but since there are no fantastic occurrences in
any of the stories and many examples of scientific discovery and
technological innovation I would have to categorize it either as SF or as
part of a separate genre, alternative history (see previous posting).

I am most troubled by the notion that "SF does not preclude magic, while
fantasy is firmly rooted into a modern or earlier tech level."  SF does not
preclude anything that might someday (or somewhere) actually exist,
including that which the venerable Arthur C. Clarke describes as being
"indistinguishable from magic."  But if the magic that is introduced into a
story contradicts scientific law, the story becomes fantasy, in spite of any
advanced technology the story may also exhibit.   I accept Deanna Troi's
empathic abilities about as readily as I accept the Enterprise's warp drive
capabilities; they may not be probable (a virtue that I demand equally of
SF, fantasy or Renaissance drama, the absence of which does not alter a
work's genre, but merely makes it bad SF, fantasy or Renaissance drama), but
I can believe that it is possible.  

On the other hand, I disagree with those that view SF as a subcategory of
fantasy, a subtype that happens to make use of science and technology, and
which, when it fails to do so correctly, becomes simply fantasy.  Instead, I
view fantasy (in the strict sense) as the narrower category, making (often
spectacular) use of a limited repertoire of motifs drawn from mythology,
legend, and history in contrast to SF, which is free to introduce any new
element that is not in open violation of scientific law as currently understood.

Ed McKnight  -  [log in to unmask]



>


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 17:02:59 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: "Non-sexist language" - pointless wild goose chase.

I have to respond to Dave's opinion on the apparent silliness of
hypersensitivity to sexist language.  

I am also tired of the pervasiveness of political correctness.  It's getting
so that no one listens to what you say and only to how you say it.   

However, I do agree that all language has its roots in patriarchy because
language was created under patriarchal regimes.  It is, therefore, inherently
skewed toward the masculine.  Such words as "history" and "seminal" would, of
course, have masculine undertones because those who created the language used
themselves -- and naturallly, their own masculinity -- as a point of
reference. 

This doesn't, however, mean that there was anything inherently evil in the
creator's intention.  That's just the way it was.  I doubt if anyone would
say that the urban black dialect has anything inherently evil in it, either.
  It's the way that they use the language -- they've adapted white language
to their own needs. In this same way, American English differs from British
English.  It's a language that comes from a particular point of reference.  

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that, although by necessity  any
language is created from a certain point of view, there is nothing mean or
oppressive in that.  That's just the way it is.

So then, I would suppose that women's effort to create their own language is
the first step in this direction.  The other thing that I would advise is for
all people to stop being hypersensitive to people's word choice and pay more
attention to the message.

AllGrill

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 17:12:37 1995
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From: [log in to unmask] (R. I. Martin)
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Literary Science Fiction
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]



Hi folks, my name is Roger Martin.  I got on the list server
last Friday, though I'd been reading the logs before that.

I notice a lot of discussion about the difference between
fantasy and SF, but *my* burning question is this:

What's the difference between "literary" SF and the rest of it?

Given that the  original intent of this group (at least as
I understand it) was to serve as a forum for literary SF, it
seems to me this is a germane question.

Any takers?
###


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 18:10:45 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Arthur's Temp. Immortality (was More on Douglas Adams

>There's one thing I don't get about the Hitchhiker trilogy.  Everyone
>assumes
>it to be set in stone that Arthur can't die until he goes to some >planet(I
>can't remember the name) and gets shot at, and ducks, and the >bullet kills
>Agrajag in one of his many forms.  Then he dies with the rest of the >world.
 >Did any of you DL fans out there catch that?

Well, it's a little complicated, but let me _try_ to explain it:

    First, some review:   In _The Restaurant at the End of the Universe_ , 
Chapter 16, Arthur was brought to the Cathedral of Hate, in 
which Agrajag dwelt.  The main hall contained a statue illustrating 
the many ways Arthur had killed him.  Arthur gawked, and Agrajag 
ranted.
      Of all the ways Agrajag said Arthur had killed him, one had not
 happened yet:  Arthur ducking a bullet at Stavromula Beta.

     Now, the explanation.   One thing must be established first.  The
 Cathedral of Hate exists outside the normal flow of time.  Past, present,
 and future are irrelevant. Therefore, Agrajag can talk about things
 that have already happened to him, but have not happened to
  Arthur yet.
     So, Agrajag knows that he gets killed by a bullet meant for Arthur
 at Stavormula Beta, but it hasn't happened yet from Artthur's point of
 view (ie. during his lifetime up to his personal present.).  However, it
 must happen.  Therefore, Arthur can not die before it does, becuase if
 he dies first, it will never happen.

     I hope this helps clear it up.  If anyone else would like to take a stab
at it, go ahead.  If anyone wants to ask a more specific question to yield a
clearer answer, feel free.  Meanwhile, Share and Enjoy!

Randy

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 18:43:49 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Magic vs supernatural
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Colleen the books you're thinking of, set in the future, where some children
awaken Merlin, are by Peter Dickinson. The first book in the series is 
called The Weathermonger. I forget the rest of the titles, but they're good
stuff.

Trying to decide whether a book is science fiction or fantasy is something
of a mugs game. Fantasy, pretty much by definition, has magic of some
sort.   If a book has some of the trappings of science fiction, but still
has what are clearl magical elements, it's fantasy that uses some of the
elements of sf, but still fantasy. Conversely, even if a book feels like
fantasy, but all of the amazing elements are explanable scientifically,
then it's science fiction, a good example being McCaffrey's Dragon series.

Although most sf is set in the present, there's no reason why it has to
be. Much good sf is set in the past, see the steam punks and a lot of
alternate universe stories, for example Harry Harrison's A Transatlantic
Tunnel, Hurrah.

Mike Levy

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 18:47:24 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 17:47:49 -0600 (CST)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy
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What makes a story science fiction is not a matter of whether or not the scienceis accurate. It's a matter of whether or not, within the context of the story,
we're supposed to assume that the marvel described works through scientific
principles. Vernes moon novel is still science fiction, despite the fact
that his shot from a gun spaceship is nonsense. 

Mike Levy
From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 18:52:03 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
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Subject: Women in Sci-Fi


To all those who responded (and will respond, knowing the cyber-mail system)
to my quesiton about women who don't have sex in a sci-fi story, thanks.
 This is one time I'm glad to not be too original.
On another subject, limiting SF to dealing with technology or time frames
advanced of the time of their writing is ludicrous!  If an author today
writes a tale of a character living in the 1800's creating a computer to
decipher hieroglifics <sp?>, it would certainly be science fiction.  


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 18:52:03 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Women in Sci-Fi


To all those who responded (and will respond, knowing the cyber-mail system)
to my quesiton about women who don't have sex in a sci-fi story, thanks.
 This is one time I'm glad to not be too original.
On another subject, limiting SF to dealing with technology or time frames
advanced of the time of their writing is ludicrous!  If an author today
writes a tale of a character living in the 1800's creating a computer to
decipher hieroglifics <sp?>, it would certainly be science fiction.  

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 19:56:38 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy
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        Though it is of no use in distinguishing science fiction from
fantasy, a modified quote from Theodore Sturgeon can help to distinguish
each of them from the mainstream:  "A science fiction story is a story with
a human problem and a human solution--neither of which would have happened
without some scientific or technological element."
        A simple substitution of "fantasy" and "fantastic" at the key
points will cover most everything else that is frequently seen as not
science fiction but more closely connected to it than to anything else in
the literary world.

[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 20:00:53 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask] (Ed McKnight)
Subject: Re: Fatherland

 Gary L. Warren wrote: 
>One other example of an Alternate History was FATHERLAND (in which Hitler 
>is still alive in the 1960's, Joe Kennedy, Sr. is president of the US and 
>the US and Germany are at a stalemate from WWII).   I saw the HBO movie
>adaptation and thought, frankly, it  stunk [partly due to a
mischaracterization of Joseph Kennedy, whom historians have shown to have
been anti-Semitic himself] 
>
>I can only hope the book was better researched than the HBO presentation.
 
Indeed it was.  Robert Harris was a correspondent for the TIMES of London
and the author of a book about the selling of the forged Hitler diaries.
FATHERLAND contains actual quotes from Joseph Kennedy Sr. regarding the
similarity of attitudes toward the Jews in Germany and the US.  The point of
making Kennedy president (and Lindbergh the US ambassador to Berlin) was to
underscore the potential for detente between the US and Nazi Germany, a
point that was pretty much lost in the HBO movie.

Ed McKnight  -  [log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 20:04:31 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy

As an avid reader of both "genres", if that is what one wishes to call them,
I tend to believe that some of the best novels arise from the combination of
the two techniques.  Reference Anne McCaffrey's Pern series for a very
successful combination.

Lisa Adams

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 20:06:02 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 2001 and Blade Runner

I have to agree with Mr. Scott; to dismiss a film as simply "too long" is
extreme.  However, there is a classic example; namely, that of Frank
Herbert's Dune - both too long in the book form, and entirely out of place in
a film setting.

Lisa Adams

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 20:13:40 1995
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Subject: Re: written vs. films
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The rest isn't worth arguing about any further, but your statement that "a
lot of writers aren't going to get published because of their
sex/race/economic status and who they know, too" is, in a word, bullshit.
Every writer you have read, of any gender, race, or economic status,
had to buck the same odds when breaking into the field. The good ones
managed; the bad ones didn't. You show me 100 wannabee writers who whine
that their sex, race or economic status kept them from selling, and I
will show you a -minimum- of 99 who couldn't write their way out of a
wet tissue bag.

On behalf of every writer who has successfully bucked those odds, I
strongly suggest you reconsider that statement and then withdraw it.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 20:23:32 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Women in Sci-Fi

Come to think of it, I don't think I have ever read a science fiction story
or novel that the female protagonist doesn't have a sexual encounter.  I
would probably be interested in such a story.

Lisa

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 20:25:20 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy

Applause to Mr. Resnick:  my only comment is LOL!!

Lisa

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From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
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	All of you are being great about sending interesting postings, 
BUT, we are still working under the old buggy software and I cannot send 
a message out until I am sure the previous message has cleared without 
crashing the server.  Right now I have 53 messages to go out, which means 
I may clear them all today, but not likely.  Remember I must look 
at and send an approval message for each one you send.  PLEASE, PLEASE, 
PLEASE, try and group your replies in one message as much as possible.  
	We will be getting new software sometime soon, but there is no 
word yet on it's arrival date.  As soon as I know, I will let you know.  
Hopefully it will allow for more flexibility in my approving messages.  
Until then, I appreciate your help.  Thanks!
Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 21:06:30 1995
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    id $T100216 ; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:57:30 EST
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:56:06 +0500 
Subject: Women in Sci-Fi
To: [log in to unmask]
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 S>Has anyone ever read a scinece fiction story where the protagnist is
a femal
 S>and doesn't have a sexual encounter?  This isn't a question of
prejudice, bu
 S>curiosity.  I've jsut written such a story, and thought of this
while editin
 S>it for submission.

Sure lots... er a few... a couple.

Seriously the first two _Honor Harrington_,  and some of Elizabeth
Moon's stories.  Quite a few of the short stories in Analog, spring to
mind.

This of course begs the question: Why is this important?

Most SF up untill the mid sixties didn't have sex for males or anyone
else at least obviously.  The Seatons & Cranes presumably did have sex
after they were married on Osnome (and of course anyone who dares
sugguest that they did before is a cad of the rankest sort)

In the seventies & eighties everyone was having sex with everything
else.

However getting back to topic.  Who cares?  If the sex isn't just an
add on, ie intregal to the plot.  I hardly notice.

Tim Tulley



From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 21:06:32 1995
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    id $T100217 ; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:58:00 EST
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 11:56:10 +0500 
Subject: Pulp books series - good or bad?
To: [log in to unmask]
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 S>X-Comment: Science Fiction and Fantasy Listserv
 S>********************
 S>In the August issue of _Science Fiction and Fantasy_ magazine
there's an
 S>editorial about the _Goosebumps_ series that have kids doing flips to
 S>convince their parents to buy them, or (according to my
mother-in-law...who
 S>works @ an elementary school library) running to the library to try
and chec
 S>out a copy that they haven't read yet.
 S>The editorial stated that this was good for the SF and Fantasy
business (eve
 S>though these books are horror) because it's getting kids to *enjoy*
reading.
 

 S>the purpose of tying into a fad and giving the reader a fast-paced
thrill
 S>that doesn't require to much thought) are pushing out promising
writers with
 S>real meaty stuff to offer, I can't help but wonder.

 S>Adora
 S>[log in to unmask]

Putting this into perspective; A true Horror tale:

I work at a convention center, the facility once or twice a year has a
Creation Star Dreck Convention.  Last year I overheard from one of the
attendies: "Why is everyone saying that Harlen Elison is such a great
author?  He only wrote one Star Treck episode."

The moral of the tale is that crossover into real SF may not happen.

Tim Tulley
[log in to unmask]



From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 21:09:27 1995
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Subject: Re: Pulp books series - good or bad?

>My pal Kris Rusch made a valid point...for CHILDREN. But when we talk
>Trek and Wookiecrap, we're talking about books for the adult (or teen,
>which takes up the same rack space) market...and it's -here- where they
>shut the new writers out (unless said writers are willing to stifle
>their creativity and tell Trek and Wookie stories), and virtually
>murder the midlist.
>
>-- Mike Resnick
>

Though I cannot argue that these spinoff fast-food books hurt the
opportunities of new writers, I don't think the affect is as great as it
appears. 
   First of all, more books are being sold now than 10 or 15 years ago (I
can't remember the statistics). Second, we all know people who read Only the
Trekkie- or Wookiebooks (Wookiebooks - I love that word! Did you coin
that?). These adults probably wouldn't read At All if it weren't for these
books. It's like saying more copies of the New York Times would be sold if
the National Enquirer didn't exist. Finally, it could be argued that these
books are taking up shelf space that could be holding books by these new
authors - but it seems that there is more shelfspace than ever for SF and
Fantasy due to these spinoff books.
                                                Fred Grimm

==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==`==~==
Fredrick Grimm
[log in to unmask]

Someday - I'll hav a sig of My Very Own ...then you'll ALL be sorry!
HA HAHAhahahahaaa!!!!!


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 21:12:48 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Alternate Histories and SF

>One other example of an Alternate History was FATHERLAND (in which Hitler 
>
>I can only hope the book was better researched than the HBO presentation.
>
>
It was much better - well, it was to me. You never saw Kennedy in the book
but he wasn't well-thought-of. 
>Gary L. Warren
>:[]
>
>
>On Sat, 24 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:
>
> 
>alternate
>> history story.  The twist is, the story Heinlien writes in set in a wrold
>> where the Roman empire didn't collapse.
>> 
I have been wanting to read this, but I thought it was by Norman Spinrad -
are there two of these books? I would appreciate titles.

Fred Grimm

==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==~==`==~==
Fredrick Grimm
[log in to unmask]

Someday - I'll hav a sig of My Very Own ...then you'll ALL be sorry!
HA HAHAhahahahaaa!!!!!


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 21:22:30 1995
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Date: 26 Jun 95 21:20:41 EDT
From: Jeff Lemkin <[log in to unmask]>
To: LOC sf discussion <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Defining SF/Fantasy:TZ postscript
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>


GAE writes
 
PS: Oh, on another topic entirely, while I enjoyed "The Twilight Zone," I
have come to realize how poverty-stricken the stories are.  Most of the
plots consist of an individual with but one principal--and unpleasant--
character trait.  This person is put in a situation in which that trait gets
him into trouble, and the story usually ends with him trapped in a horrible
fate, having learned An Important Lesson, sadly Too Late.  Too didactic by
half.

The early Twilight Zone stories were all about 1/2 hour of TV-time long. Even in
the pre-marketing frenzy days, I think that was about 23 minutes or so. Given
the resilience of these stories and their powerful influence on so many forms of
fantastic storytelling, I wouldn't define them as 'poverty-stricken'. By the
description given, perhaps Aesop's Fables would also be seen as
poverty-stricken. 

Perhaps I'm just being naive, but I've always felt that the TZ's focus on an
individual character and then just an individual (or so) trait of that character
was one of the things which helped bring such intensity to the productions. It
certainly helped capture my attention.

	Cheers!

	-Jeff


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 21:23:00 1995
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From: Arthur Hlavaty <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Sharecropping (was: Wookiebooks)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Mon, 26 Jun 1995, Teresa J Warren wrote:

> I'd also like to point out that three TREK-book writers -- Diane Duane, 
> Alan Dean Foster and Peter David -- made their initial niche in writing 
> TREK stuff, wrote some unique stories in those books (Peter David's 
> IZMADI and Q-SQUARED and Foster's adaptations/expansions of the cartoon 
> series of the early 70's), and went on to write more books OUTSIDE the 
> sub-genre.  Has these three writers' quality of work suffered?  I think not!
> 
> 
If memory serves, all three of these were known for other work before 
they did Trekbooks. Duane had already started the Door Into series; 
Foster had already started the Flinx books; and David had written a novel 
about King Arthur coming back (title forgotten) and was known as a comics 
scripter, which may or may not count. Duane's *The Wounded Sky* is by far 
my favorite Trekbook because I see it as excellent metaphysical sf with a 
couple of familiar-named characters in minor roles. I suspect that it is 
harder to get away with that now.

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 22:07:19 1995
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To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF and Fantasy 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 26 Jun 1995 21:25:43 EDT."
             <[log in to unmask]> 
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 19:12:00 -0700
From: Espana Nunez <[log in to unmask]>

> Usually, a story containing both fantasy and sci-fi elements can be
considered sci fi, >since SF does not preclude magic, while fantasy is
firmly rooted into a modern or >earlier tech level.  The defining factor of
SF is technology level, and anything that is >neither at a later date nor a
higher tech level than the time at which it is written is not >SF.

I am intrigued by the notion that SF and fantasy can be distinguished by the
level of technology they display or the time in which they are set.

************

	What about stories that don't really care about technological level?
	Alot of the SF I grew up reading and loving (since I love short stories
	above all) where 1950's and "New wave", many of the former where just 			
plain weird and many of the the later where drug-trip types. I'll grant 		my 
own definition of SF	is pretty inclusive (although I dont tend to       	read 
much Fantasy).
	So are all those Ellison stories SF? Or Fantastic Literature? or
	Speculative Fiction (the vaguenes of theis one is what always apealed
	to me) or what? And Howard Waldrop (The Ugly Chickens fr'instance)
	or "Casey Agonistes" (my guess is that would probably end up as 			Fantasy)? 
Or the story about the telepath by an author I dont 				remember"Is Anybody 
Out There"? I can't think of any more examples off 			the top of my head, but 
I'll look through my bookshelves and I'm sure
	there's many more of that type, Im sure many are easily categorized as 			
Fantasy but not all, by a long shot.
		


--
Espana N. Sheriff			"Hip-Hop Bishop of Beat! The Cool, 
[log in to unmask]			Gone Daddio of the Deva Dimensions!"
http://www.Catch22.COM/~espana				-Doom Patrol



From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 22:09:25 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 22:06:17 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fantasy and SF


>I'm new to this group so I might be repeating someone else.  If so,
>sorry to waste your time.
>
>I would say that the basic difference is that in (good) SF, the
>improbable/impossible happening are (at least partially) supported >by
scientific explaination.  Whereas in fantasy we must simply take
>everything on faith.

I assume that you'll agree that Heinlein's _Stranger in a Strange Land_ was
fantasy, NOT SF?




From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 22:47:55 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 22:46:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: Vaillancourt Alain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Abominations done in publ...
To: [log in to unmask]
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>
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On Mon, 26 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> I don't know... My local library also, as you would say, "lumped F and SF"
> together, but I kind of like it. Instead of thinking which section they
> might've put _the City_ in, I just go and look up S for Simak. Easier...
> And BTW, what is Dewrey Decimal System ??? A library programming language ?

It is a numerical coding system used to shelve books by subject in most 
public libraries in North America.  It was devised by Melvil Dewey, a 
very methodical librarian, more than a 100 years ago but has been 
continuously updated by the non-profit corporation he set up and the 
continuous intellectual contributions of thousands of librarians. 

There are 10 main categories

0 is for general knowledge (Library Science and computer programming are in 
this)
1 is for Philosophy
2 is for Religion
3 is for Social Sciences
4 is for Language
5 is for Science
6 is for Technology (Rocket tech. but also business techniques and practices)
7 is for Art and crafts (moviemaking, architecture and others included)
8 is for literature
9 is for geography and History.

Within each of these 10 categories there are a further 10 divisions and 
within each of those a further 10 subdivisions, and so on...

In theory all books in a public library could get their Dewey number and 
be all shelved by subject but in practice most (if not 99%) of public 
libraries find it convenient to use the Dewey decimal system only on 
non-fiction books and shelve fiction alphabetically, by author.  And, as 
we have already noted most public libraries will do a further breakdown 
of their fiction collection according to genre or languages.

In the Dewey decimal _The_making_of_Star_Trek_ by Stephen E. Whitfield would 
probably get a code like 791.457 because it is about the making of a TV 
series while _The_art_of_"The empire strikes back"_ edited by Deborah Call, 
would probably get a code like 791.4372 because it is about making a movie.

A book about the religion of Gene Roddenberry would probably get a code 
starting with 261 or 291.

A book about the link between militarism in the Star Trek universe and 
american militarism in the era of the cold war would probably get a code 
starting with 355 while a book about Science fiction as a literary 
phenomenon in the USA would get a code starting with 823 and so on... 

There is nobody to stop you from adding subdivisions to further refine 
the subject.  No fanatic "sons of Dewey" and no Library of Congress 
agents to keep you from making monster Dewey codes or from adding your 
inventions to Library of Congress Subject Headings.  {Freeze you Turkey! 
Put down that copy of AACR3 real slow!!}{Chief, look, ... look at what 
they penciled in that dog-eared copy of LCSH!!!}{ Oh my God!!}

Personally, I put all my SF and Fantasy fiction under 398.4 and am just 
itching to subdivide it even further once I get a look at the SF 
thesaurus Colleen Stumbaugh and others cook up and at the decimal 
classification of Fantasy that Alastair Cameron made 40 years ago.

Au revoir!

DE:  Alain Vaillancourt		[log in to unmask] 



From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 23:07:38 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:04:29 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 2001

>To dismiss a film as too long is also catering to attention spans that 
are very short and Hollywood/movie theatre desires to hvae sub 2 hour 
stuff so they can make more money, too. If it is too long and _boring_ 
and padded that is different, but length is not a bad thing in and of itself.

   I am very sensitive to lengths of movies.  I mean I find the majority too
long and boring.  Many is the time a movie has been ruined because I can feel
my brain cells dying at the useless parts.
You can call this a short attention span, but I can't stand any
self-indulgent material which does not add to the movie in some way.
  There were many such spots in 2001.  I did not find watching those apes for
what felt like forever or the funny, waving, unending colors
thought-provoking; these parts were pointless and should have been removed.
 They deaden the brain, making one less alert for the important parts.
  Understand, I liked the movie, but that was in spite of its flaws and
Kubrick's addiction to imagery in preference to substance.

Sean D.

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 23:07:39 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:07:38 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Literary Science Fiction

Let's work from the basics.

-There's writing.
-There's art.  Differing definitions, but I agree with Ayn Rand on this one:
a concrete expression of one's abstract views of the nature of life. 
-There's literature: writing that is art.
-There's SF: I've given my developing definition before (and don't want to go
through all that again).
-SF literature: SF writing that is art.

But I think most use the term to mean literary SF that expresses itself WELL.

Sean D.

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 23:23:14 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:23:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Sharecropping (was: Wookiebooks)
To: [log in to unmask]
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Foster was a very popular sf writer -before- he did the Trektoon stuff.

And never ask a writer to comment on the quality of other writers. We
don't do it. They might comment on -us- in return.

-- Mike Resnick

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 23:40:35 1995
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 id <[log in to unmask]>; Mon, 26 Jun 1995 22:41:00 CST
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 22:41:00 -0600 (CST)
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Poetry
To: [log in to unmask]
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There are useful discussions of science fiction poetry in both Anatomy of
Wonder, 4th edition, edited by Neil Barron and Clute and Nichols Encyclope-
dia of Science Fiction.

Probably the best collection of science fiction poetry is Robert Frazier's
Burning with a Vision. Also good is Terry A. Garey's anthology Time Frames.
You might also check out each of the Nebula Awards anthologies. These are
primarily short fiction, but also include each year's winner of the Rhysling
Award for outstanding fantasy and sf poetry.

There's also an organization, The Science Fiction Poetry Association. If
anyone wants their mailing address I can look it up. They publish a magazine
called Star*Line.

SF poets I particularly recommend: Robert Frazier, Bruce Boston, David Lunde,
Denise Dumars, Sandra Lindow, Joe Haldeman, Tom Disch, Ursula K. LeGuin, Ruth
Berman, Sonya Dorman, Andrew Joron, Steve Sneyd, Jane Yolen, John Calvin
Rezmerski.

Mike Levy

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 23:45:49 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:45:49 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Alternate Histories and SF

Real-life technological events happening earlier than they did in the real
world does not turn it into SF.

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 23:46:04 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:46:03 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fantasy and SF

In far-ahead SF, there is often no technological basis.  The perfect examples
include "Star Wars" and "Buck Rogers in the 25th Century".

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 23:46:18 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fantasy books?

I strongly agree with most of your message--the book is another example of
lumping SF and fantasy together and calling them SF *or* calling them
fantasy--but I feel that horror, such as Dracula and Rosemary's Baby, can
usually be seen as a type of fantasy.  It often meets all the fantasy
requirements(takes place now or before, contains supernatural elements,
etc.).  The exceptions would include horror stories containing no
supernatural elements, most often falling under the "Mad Slasher" category,
and horror stories taking place in the future.

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 23:46:29 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: More on Douglas Adams...

1.  That would be an ENORMOUS coincidence(not that Douglas Adams doesn't like
coincidences, but he usually draws the reader's attention to them, instead of
just having them be assumed).
2.  Since Agrajag *will get* shot in the future, there obviously has to be a
future, which, at the end of Mostly Harmless, there obviously *won't be*(note
use of future tense).

From cstu  Tue Jun 27 13:20:35 1995
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Subject: Re: More on Douglas Adams
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:46:29 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: More on Douglas Adams...

1.  That would be an ENORMOUS coincidence(not that Douglas Adams doesn't like
coincidences, but he usually draws the reader's attention to them, instead of
just having them be assumed).
2.  Since Agrajag *will get* shot in the future, there obviously has to be a
future, which, at the end of Mostly Harmless, there obviously *won't be*(note
use of future tense).


From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 23:46:42 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 2001 and Blade Runner

I don't understand how you can like a movie as boring as 2001, and, at the
other end of the scale, one as corny, Disneyish and action-packed as Star
Wars.  I love the second two Star Warses, but the first one is way too cheesy
for me.

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 23:46:58 1995
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Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 23:46:57 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy (fwd)

What makes you think that Star Trek is fantasy?  To me, Star Trek is the
quintessential SF.  The only argument against would be that it lacks
scientific bases, but in this day and age, only an idealistic purist would
apply that test to all works and  call them fantasy if they do not pass.  SF
has come to mean, "Fiction taking place in the future or in a more advanced
world than that in which it is written."  As such, Star Trek is SF.

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 23:47:07 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
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Subject: Fwd: Re: Why I brought up SF vs. F...

OK, don't just describe the setting to me, describe the plot as well.  my
challenge stands.
---------------------
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Date: 95-06-26 10:08:08 EDT

>I was not saying that never the twain shall meet.  However, i am offering
>this challenge: summarize a setting, and I will tell you whether it's
fantasy
>or SF, and justify my answer.  Blast away.
Impossible. It is not possible to know a book or a movie or whatever to be F
or SF by setting _alone_. Example: Simak. Most of his books start of as SF
and go into F... "The Goblin Reservation".





From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 23:47:44 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF vs. Fantasy, Alternate History Division

I(sorry, you don't have my name handy, I'm lambor w/no caps) don't think that
Alternate histories are automatically SF.  If they have no superior
technology and they take place now or before, why should they be?

From [log in to unmask]  Mon Jun 26 23:48:05 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Fwd: Sharecropping (was: Wookiebooks)

I agree to your comments, with one exception: In the series of novels based
on Star Trek and Star Trek: The Next Generation, one can find some excellent
SF writing, which is very faithful to the original shows.  See especially the
work of Diane Duane.
---------------------
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Date: 95-06-26 11:41:03 EDT

I don't want to bait Mike Resnick any more than others already have 
(especially since I agree with him in general outline), but I do feel 
compelled to point out that not all work-for-hire books are the same. Just as

we all feel comfortable making literary judgments about "normal" (creator-
controlled and owned) books, and have been sliding into such judgments on 
films (which have many of the same problems of work-for-hire books, 
exacerbated by the much larger numbers of people involved in ostensibly 
creative work and the possibilities of making huge amounts of cash), we 
should be able to make literary judgments about books featuring, say, Luke 
Skywalker or Doctor Who. And, if we're intellectually honest, the answer 
won't be a dismissive harrumpf (echoing all those Lit-Crit types who look 
down their noses at SF), but a real attempt to judge them reasonably.
                        
Admittedly, Sturgeon's Law operates in this field with a vengeance: I 
wouldn't be willing to admit even 10 % of the tie-in books published are 
actually worth reading. And there is an additional, extra-literary, aspect 
that is vitally related to the possible worth of such a book, even before 
it's written. And that's the willingness of the licensor to allow the writer 
to do his job without their constant interference.

The only media-driven series I've read much of are the Stars Trek and Wars, 
so I'll use them for my examples. Trek is very tightly controlled by 
Paramount Pictures, and the books show it. Nothing is allowed to deviate in 
the slightest from the TV/Movie gospel, and, since more "real" (i.e., movies)

works are planned, nothing really new can happen. So the very best Trek novel

(Peter David's _Q-Squared_, is the one I'd pick), is a decent, if flat and 
faintly pointless, novel. Most of them are just silly dreck, despite the best

efforts of some quite prominent authors (not simply the newcomers, as Resnick

implied). I don't know why anyone would _want_ to write a Trek novel, except 
for the money: you're not allowed to have anything change and I don't find 
the universe terribly compelling in the first place. But they're all 
bestsellers (NY Times, not simply genre), so my view is the minority one.

Star Wars, on the other hand, has been allowed much greater flexibility by 
Lucasfilm, primarily (I imagine) because George Lucas isn't going to ever 
make another movie with these characters. As long as things end up in the 
right place for his next movie trilogy (set 50 years later or so, I believe),

it's fine with him. So the characters are allowed to change (not a lot, I'll 
grant you, but their actions have consequences and repercussions and affect 
things in later books). And so the net is set higher. I'd still not claim 
that any Star Wars book could be great, that it would be the kind of thing 
we'd normally discuss here and would have an effect on the history of the 
field, but it is possible to write a good novel set in this universe. Barbara

Hambly (current President of SFFWA, as it happens) has done one, _Children of

the Jedi_. And the general run-of-the-mill Star Wars novel is a fun space 
opera, wtihout much depth or weight, but without the feeling of 
meaninglessness that infests Trek. I can understand a writer _wanting_ to 
write a Star Wars book, and actually having an idea that might be fun to 
write, as I can't with Trek.

I guess my point here was just to defend writers who do a sharecropped book 
as not necessarily contributing to the inevitable destruction of themselves 
and the field. Most of these books, admittedly, have no reason to be, are 
consumed by people who don't read much, if any, other SF/Fantasy, and take up

rack space that we'd all rather see go to original works. But: 1) that's not 
true of all of them, 2) every book bought and read by a TV person is a blow 
for literacy, even if a very light one and 3) as I've written before, more 
original SF/Fantasy is being published than just about any time in the past, 
certainly more than any normal person can read. And most of that is crap, 
too. From the point of view of an typical New SF Writer, whose choice may be 
either A: write a mediocre original novel, see it fail to sell out a 
pessimistic first printing and know things will probably be worse for book # 
2 or B: write a mediocre tie-in novel, make more money even with the tiny 
royalties than you would ever see from an original first novel, and then 
still have the opportunity to go back to A:, the choice isn't really weighted

on the side of righteousness.


Andy Wheeler


From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 00:43:47 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Magic vs supernatural

>  ...is it fantasy until you find out that it is post-apocalyptic?

Yep, sure is.  And if you tore out the last 50 pages or whatever of the book,
it would be a work of fantasy.  Of course, if being post-apocalyptic does no
actually *matter* to the theme(although this is hard to imagine), then the
work could be considered fantasy.

From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 00:44:16 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Fwd: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy

If it is, "oh darn."
---------------------
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Date: 95-06-26 19:20:35 EDT

That is a helluva condemning definition, isn't it? Gonna make a lot of 
people mad. :-)

AussieVamp
Richard Scott ([log in to unmask])
Solid rock.., standing on sacred ground..., livin' on .. borrowed time..
--- Goanna, Spirit Of Place

On Sun, 25 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:

> 
> I don't recall the source, but I believe that the best definition of
Science
> Fiction that I have read is "If you remove the science from the story and
> there is no story left, then it is science fiction.  For an example,
consider
> Mary Shelley's _Frankenstein_."  The quote is not exact, but the gist is
> there.
> 
> 


From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 00:44:22 1995
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Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 00:44:22 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: SF v. Fantasy

SF does not have to be realistic.  Star Wars is some of the least-possible
SF.

From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 00:44:30 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Fwd: re: Lambor's definition of SF

In other words, I am wrong because lots of people disagree with me?  Sorry, i
just don't think that way.
---------------------
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OK, time for a little syllogysm:

Major Premise: SF writers, editors, critics and noted fans have always (with 
few eceptions) categorized Alternate Histories as SF.

Minor Premise: Your simplified categorization (i.e., SF is fiction set 
chronologically letter than the date it was written) denies that Alternate 
Histories are SF.

Your Conclusion: Alternate Histories aren't SF

Everyone Else's Conclusion: Your categorization is too simple, since it fails

a simple "real-world" test.


Andy Wheeler
                                    

P.S. What about time travel stories?


From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 00:44:52 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Fwd: Re: Defining SF/Fantasy

That definition would make almost any story involving technology, even normal
modern technology such as the tech I'm using to send this message, SF.
Furthermore, what if the setting is obviously SF, but the problem is solved
through a non-technological method?
---------------------
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Date: 95-06-26 21:54:51 EDT

        Though it is of no use in distinguishing science fiction from
fantasy, a modified quote from Theodore Sturgeon can help to distinguish
each of them from the mainstream:  "A science fiction story is a story with
a human problem and a human solution--neither of which would have happened
without some scientific or technological element."
        A simple substitution of "fantasy" and "fantastic" at the key
points will cover most everything else that is frequently seen as not
science fiction but more closely connected to it than to anything else in
the literary world.

[log in to unmask]



From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 01:36:11 1995
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Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 01:37:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: "M.L. Davis" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: titles...
To: "Multiple recipients of list <[log in to unmask]>" <[log in to unmask]>
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Something that I have noticed on this (& other) lists is a certain... 
casualness with regard to titles.  Not that I mean that we necessarily 
butcher a title (although that has happened), but we tend to include a 
shrugged 'or something like that.'

I'd like to ask some of the writers on this list (Mike, George, et al.) 
what their feeling on the issue is.  Since Mike's been fairly open on the 
writing process (we already know how long it takes him to speed through 
an award-winning manuscript) maybe he'll comment.  How emotionally 
attached do you become to your titles--do they change during the editing/ 
publishing process?  Do you visibly cringe when someone buggers one of 
them up (particularly a clever one)?  Or do you take a more philosophical 
view of the issue--as long as people are reading them & liking them it 
doesn't matter much if they haven't the foggiest what their called.

Just wondering.

Marie


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:::  "That which does not kill me, makes me funnier"  :::
::: 				- Dennis Miller       :::
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 01:51:45 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Ancient fantasy literature

Adora ([log in to unmask]) wrote:

"Along these same lines is _The Metamorphosis_, I don't remember the author's
name (perhaps someone else can fill this in for me - it's been a couple of
years since I checked out a copy)"

The author was Ovid.

Gary 
Gary L. Swaty


From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 01:55:43 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Tie in books

OK, I'm going to get killed for this, but....

I am obviously in a minority as a newbie, and as someone who will admit to
reading Trek tie in books, but I felt I had to say something.  Even if Trek
spinoffs are head candy, they do get people to read. (Not *my* problem, but
as an example they got my 33 year old brother to start reading again after he
swore off books in high school.)  And excuse me if I enjoy reading them as
just fun escapism...

I know this doesn't address the stifling of teh 'midrange' that Mike Resnick
has complained of, but I haven't noticed a large drop in new authors in SF/F
at *my* bookstore.... I'm still buying them by teh dozen. 

Flame away, I'm wearing kevlar.

-Mary Matthesen  

From cstu  Tue Jun 27 14:51:45 1995
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From: Colleen Stumbaugh <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: No flaming, please!
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>Flame away, I'm wearing kevlar.
>
>-Mary Matthesen  

Please do not!  With our current abundance of messages, it would really 
swamp me and besides, flaming is highly discouraged.  Several of you will 
have received messages from me where I refused to post a message that got 
a little too hot, or at least post it in that form.  So please count to 
10, take a deep breath, and save the flames for the fireplace.
Colleen
Colleen Stumbaugh, Moderator and Co-owner of SF-LIT
[log in to unmask]



From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 02:39:04 1995
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Subject: Re: Mostly Harmless (really Terry Pratchett)
X-Vms-To: SMTP%"[log in to unmask]@lkpsun"

> I'd suggest _Good Omens_, by Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett. (sp?)  I haven't
> read Pratchett's other stuff, but I'm told it's in a similar vein to Adams,
> except it's fantasy rather than SF.  Good Omens is certainly very funny.

I've read the entire diskworld series (as available in paperback -- something
like 16 parts). While I can agree with your characterization of Pratchett
being like Adams, only in fantasy for the first few books in the series, this
is not the case once we're talking about the newer DW books.

The earlier books rely heavily on slapstick, puns and making fun of cliches
from fantasy literature/films. The later books rely on such strange things
as good plotting and well-drawn characters. The outrageous puns and persistent
subversion of cliches (both from fantasy and other things -- Pratchett is
obviously a fan of the movie _Blues Brothers_) is just an added bonus. I also
think it is something of a relief to read a series that doesn't take itself
totally seriously. Pratchett openly admids that the discworld geography is
flexible -- if something he wants to do will contradict something he has
already done earlier he'll gladly go ahead anyway.

Try some recent discworld novels (the reading order is not really important).
I don't think you'll regret it.

/ Hans

From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 03:10:34 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tie-In Novels
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 08:10:00 BST
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Andy Sawyer:

>I am without doubt a fan of the TV series Babylon 5 and agree with what's
>been written above: I think for once we have someone who is prepared to
>use some intelligence and storytelling skill to flesh out the series. It's
>also been brilliantly marketed to appeal to the "literate media fan", but
>that's part of its appeal. I've only read one of the novelisations, 
however,
>and it didn't seem to me to be any different in essence from any other
>novelisation I'd read. I like the TV series a lot, but have no real desire
>to follow it up in book form - there are many more imaginative books, it 
seems
>to me, than the one B5 spinoff I read. But then, I rarely read spinoffs
>anyway:
>I tend to agree with what Mike has said. Let's give some people a chance to
>do their OWN things.

Having sung the praises of B5 and all who sail in her, I must say that I'm 
not surprised if the novelisations are less than revolutionary (still 
waiting for a chance to read them, myself).  Perhaps a significant thing 
about them, though, literary merit aside, is that Straczynski tries (or, to 
be fair, he claims to try and I see no reason to disbelieve him) to ensure 
that they deal with the current themes of the show in a way that slots into 
the current season at the time of writing, and complements it.  This is 
certainly the case with the (very few) associated comics.  I hope that the 
things are enjoyable, at least, since I am impressed by the apparent 
integrity of the project as a whole and it would be a shame if they were 
clunky things.  I agree, in the main, that the TV series should best be 
considered as just that (if at all...).  On the other hand since the other 
stuff exists I'm also quite keen to see how it's been integrated.  This is a 
complicated beast.

And of course we can all now wait and see whether John Vornholt's mind 
implodes while his creativity deserts him as a result.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 04:13:32 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: RE: SF v. Fantasy
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 08:32:00 BST
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>Are genres really categories, or are they ways of reading and
>writing? If the latter, it doesn't make sense to argue about whether
>a particular story is SF or fantasy.  Instead, a book like Gene
>Wolfe's _Book of the New Sun_ can be approached by saying, "Well, it
>functions like fantasy in these ways and like SF in those other
>ways."
>
>Brian Attebery
>([log in to unmask])

I think this is about the most pertinent, useful and concise remark I've 
seen in this thread.

I just wanted to say that.

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 05:05:24 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dahl interactives
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:04:56 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Patricia Reynolds" at Jun 26, 95 09:31:11 am
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In the last mail Patricia Reynolds said:
> 
> I mentioned in an earlier post that I am currently developing Dahl
> interactives at Buckinghamshire County Museum, and Andy Sawyer asked
> to hear more.
> 
> 
> I think Andy would appreciate the section on personal hygene ... 
> introduced by the Twits.

Whaddya mean? I've washed TWICE this month!> 
It all sounds fascinating, and congratulations on the Lottery funding. If
I ever get down to Bucks I must visit.

-- 
Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool
PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK
0151-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html

"Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight)

From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 06:00:35 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Films
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:12:03 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Moonbeam" at Jun 7, 95 02:29:50 pm
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In the last mail Moonbeam said:
> 
> > On Wed, 7 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:
> > 
> > > I propose yet another "Best Of" list for consideration:  Which novel, novella
> > > or short story in the SF genre would you most like to see given a top-shelf,
> > > feature grade cinematic treatment?
> 
> I would like to see Battlefield Earth done - though it might take a 
> miniseries to do it well.
> 
I can think of nothing more horrendous - apart from having to read the book
again. So I suspect that this is going to happen someday :-)

-- 
Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool
PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK
0151-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html

"Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight)

From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 06:00:41 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF and Fantasy on the same shelves (Fwd from moderator)
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:23:07 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "Colleen Stumbaugh" at Jun 26, 95 07:24:48 pm
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In the last mail Colleen Stumbaugh said:
> 
> 
> SF is just not one genre -- it is a collection of overlapping genres that 
> interact with each other, bouncing off each other in rather wonderful 
> ways. This may make the great mass of stuff that falls under that 
> category hard to sift through, but it can also be a very good thing.
> 
> Stephanie
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Stephanie A. Hall, Archivist           The Library of Congress
> American Folklife Center               preserves and houses
> Library of Congress                    countless ideas and opinions.
> Washington, DC 20540-8100              Those expressed here 
> [log in to unmask]                           are my own.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Exactly! This is the exciting thing about sf - that you can pick up one book
classified as sf and it can be extremely different from the book next to
it. I think most sf readers read fantasy (though I'm not sure whether it's
the other way round), but more to the point most of the really well-read people
in all kinds of writing that I know are sf readers. Which is one of the reasons
I can't take discussions about specific genre boundaries too seriously (though
they can be useful for clarifying your thoughts about why you like/dislike
a particular book). > 
> 
-- 
Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool
PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK
0151-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html

"Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight)

From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 06:00:42 1995
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From: "Mr A.P. Sawyer" <[log in to unmask]>
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Poetry
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:29:10 +0100 (BST)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "set chaos/total" at Jun 26, 95 08:03:57 pm
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In the last mail set chaos/total said:
> 
> I have occasionally come across some selections of SF poetry, e.g., David
> Gerrold's "The Badlands", some stuff by Joe Haldeman, but only very
> occasionally.  Are there any anthologies of or sources for SF poetry out there?
> 
> Nancy
> 
Try the SF Poetry Association which publishes a magazine called
STAR*LINE. Address is Margaret B Simon, 1412 NE 35th ST, Ocala FL 34479.
That's probably the best source I know in the States, but there are others
in the UK.

-- 
Andy Sawyer,
Librarian/Administrator: Science Fiction Foundation Collection
Sydney Jones Library, The University of Liverpool
PO Box 147, Liverpool L69 3DA, UK
0151-794-2733/2696
[log in to unmask]
http://liv.ac.uk/~asawyer/sffchome.html

"Science fiction is what we point to when we say it." (Damon Knight)

From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 06:11:42 1995
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          Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:42:36 +0100
Subject: Re: Poetry
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 10:42:33 +0100 (BST)
From: Andy Butler <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> from "set chaos/total" at Jun 26, 95 08:03:57 pm
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On sf poetry:

There's an ancient (well 1968 or 1969) anthology Holding Your Eight Hands 
edited by Edward Lucie-Smith, London: Rapp + Whiting which has stuff by D 
M Thomas, John Sladek and Thom Disch amongst others (and Thom Disch is an 
excellent poet, if rarely an sf poet).

More recently there was an American anthology Poly, whose details escape 
me.  This has people like Bruce boston and Andy Darlington.

The UK expert on sf poetry is Steve Sneyd, Hilltop Press, 4 Nowell Place, 
Almondbury, Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, HD5 8PB, UK, who produces a 
legible if cramped (or information dense) newsletter / factsheet called 
Data Dump.  (30p or a dollar each, cheques to S Sneyd.  Send him a SSAE 
or whatever those reply coupons things are for details).


Cheers

Andy Butler

Joint co-ordinator Academic Fantastic Fiction Network

English Department
University of Hull
Hull
UK

[log in to unmask]

"We drift down time, clutching at straws.  But what good's a brick to a 
drowning man?"



 


From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 06:32:20 1995
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Date: 27 Jun 95 06:31:41 EDT
From: Jeff Lemkin <[log in to unmask]>
To: LOC sf discussion <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Women in SF
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>



Has anyone ever read a scinece fiction story where the protagnist is a female
and doesn't have a sexual encounter?  This isn't a question of prejudice,
 but curiosity.  I've just written such a story, and thought of this while
editing it for submission.
 ********************
The _Taylor's Ark_ series by Jody Lynn Nye has a strong female protagonist (Dr.
Shona Taylor) who is basically too busy to find the time for sexual encounters,
though it's clear she wishes she had a little spare time from her constant
world-saving endeavours. This creates more dimension to her character, IMO, and
intriguing tensions in the novels themselves.

Lois McMaster Bujold's novel _The Spirit Ring_ also has a female protagonist
(Fiametta) who certainly isn't adverse to having a sexual encounter, but just
can't seem to find the time! Again, I find this adds  to the story and
strengthens the character.

Finally, Vernor Vinge, in  _Grimm's World_ (and then in expanded release, _Tatja
Grimm's World_) presents a female character who's light years ahead of the run
of the mill inhabitants of her world, both mentally and physically. She may well
have sexual encounters, but if indeed she has them, they are referenced so
obliquely that their primary effect is one of deepening the mysterious side to
her character and origins. She's smart, and in such a way that her intelligence
is highly stimulating to some of the other characters in the book.

<><><<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


If you don't mind branching off into SF drama, Caryl Churchill's _Moving
Clocks Go Slow_ has three very strong women and (if I recall correctly) no
sexual encounters.

00000000000000000000000000000000000000

>Asimov's Susan Calvin
*********************
Do you really think Susan Calvin is a good example? She was such a
stereotypically frigid female scientist. 
Granted, she  only had one 'love interest' in _I, Robot_ but even that was
the 'woman meets a handsome man and falls head over silly heels for him,
therby threatening her career, and then lashes out in viscious anger when she
realizes she's not pretty enough or silly enough for him' plot.
It would seem that Susan Calvin is the opposit to the 'breeder' streotype -
the smart, and therby sexually uninteresting, woman.

Of course, this is all IMHO.

Adora
[log in to unmask]



From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 06:44:27 1995
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Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:45:42 -0300 (ADT)
From: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: The Importance of Non-sexist Language
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Mon, 26 Jun 1995 [log in to unmask] wrote:
> I have to respond to Dave's opinion on the apparent silliness of
> hypersensitivity to sexist language. [snip, snip, snip] 
> So then, I would suppose that women's effort to create their own language is
> the first step in this direction.  The other thing that I would advise is for
> all people to stop being hypersensitive to people's word choice and pay more
> attention to the message.
> AllGrill

But "the medium IS the message."

*****************************************************************
patricia monk (dr)                              [log in to unmask]
                   "just visiting this planet"
*****************************************************************



From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 06:51:45 1995
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Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:53:00 -0300 (ADT)
From: Patricia Monk <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Literary Science Fiction
To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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On Mon, 26 Jun 1995, R. I. Martin wrote:
 
> I notice a lot of discussion about the difference between
> fantasy and SF, but *my* burning question is this:
>      What's the difference between "literary" SF and the rest of it?
> Given that the  original intent of this group (at least as
> I understand it) was to serve as a forum for literary SF, it
> seems to me this is a germane question. Any takers?
> 
Roger: I am not sure that I, for one, understand your question. All SF is 
literary to some extent, because it's written. Are you talking about the 
difference between "writerly" and "readerly" texts?

*****************************************************************
patricia monk (dr)                              [log in to unmask]
                   "just visiting this planet"
*****************************************************************



From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 06:54:39 1995
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Date: 27 Jun 95 06:53:01 EDT
From: Jeff Lemkin <[log in to unmask]>
To: LOC sf discussion <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "Non-sexist language" - pointless wild goose chase.
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>



<[log in to unmask] writes>

I am also tired of the pervasiveness of political correctness.  It's getting
so that no one listens to what you say and only to how you say it.   

However, I do agree that all language has its roots in patriarchy because
language was created under patriarchal regimes.  It is, therefore, inherently
skewed toward the masculine.  Such words as "history" and "seminal" would, of
course, have masculine undertones because those who created the language used
themselves -- and naturallly, their own masculinity -- as a point of
reference. 

>I would maintain that language is not inherently skewed towards a patriarchal
viewpoint. There are a number of conflicting opinions as to the formsof the
cultures which were extant  when languages were being developed. In any case,
taking words and modifying them to have a more <matriarchal??> flavor really
begs the question of human understanding. The bias towards  patri-matri-archal
flavors is really a cultural one, which is imposed on a matrix of common
understanding and executed by a common understanding of the words. Thus, they
are not inherently m/f, they are rather being used to represent m/f viewpoints
in a cultural overlay. They could just as easily represent other viewpoints,
depending on the shared understandings of the speakers.

An interesting example of this type of language useage can be found in David
Brin's _Glory Season_, where relatively standard terminology is often stood on
its head as he explores the intensely matriarchal society and female protagonist
who is moving on a sort of quest through that society. Since the majority of
children born are clones of their mothers, this leads to some unusual, yet very
reasonable deformations of what I might consider 'standard' language. By and
large, the terms are the same, but the context and implications of those terms
are stood on their head by the wonderfully imagined cultural matrix of the world
Stratos.

	-Jeff


From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 07:49:41 1995
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    id $T100104 ; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:41:24 EST
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:41:06 +0500 
Subject: Re: Sharecropping (was: Wookiebooks)
To: [log in to unmask]
X-Wg-Gmid: -1300195958/419622
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X-Wg-Rplto: -1300195958/419390

Mike Resnick said:

 S>Andy Wheeler: I go for the even more basic question than whether
media
 S>books are worth reading, and ask whether they're worth writing. As
someone
 S>who turned down offers last year to do both a Trekbook and a Wookie
trilogy,
 S>you can guess my answer.

 I 99% agree with you Mr. Resnick, but I still have a secret desire to
see _Alternate Enterprises_.  Although I get the feeling that Paramount
wouldn't!

Tim Tulley
[log in to unmask]



From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 07:50:16 1995
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    id $T100105 ; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:41:56 EST
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:41:08 +0500 
Subject: Literary Science Fiction
To: [log in to unmask]
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 S>Hi folks, my name is Roger Martin.

Hi Roger!  

 S>I notice a lot of discussion about the difference between
 S>fantasy and SF, but *my* burning question is this:

 S>What's the difference between "literary" SF and the rest of it?

IMHO literary SF is written for reading not from screenplays.  Thus _Do
Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ is literary while the novlization of
_Bladerunner_ isn't.  2001 is a special case as the book was written
with not from the movie.


 S>Any takers?
 
Took.

Tim Tulley
[log in to unmask]



From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 07:50:45 1995
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    id $T100106 ; Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:42:24 EST
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:41:08 +0500 
Subject: Re: written vs. films
To: [log in to unmask]
X-Wg-Gmid: -1300195958/419624
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 S>>>I just don't agree that they [media books] are the Great Creeping
Evil
 S>out to destroy science fiction.<<

 S>The Great Creeping Evil out to destroy science fiction is economics.
 S>Media books are just one of its weapons.

 S>-- Mike Resnick

Agreed!  

I'm trying to start writing myself (it sure was easier when I was
muttering "I could write better stuff than this crud" than applying
fingers to keyboard)

However _if_ I do get published and Paramount/Lucas offers me $ to do a
Star Dreck/Wookie bookie.  I'd probably take the money.

Of course if I made enough to eat & pay the rent (my 2nd & 3rd favorite
hobbies) I might let my principles take over & tell them to " put it
where there is no chance of solar radation impacting upon the object in
question."

Tim Tulley
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From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 08:16:19 1995
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Date:         Tue, 27 Jun 95  08:18:56 EDT
From: Bob Roehm <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Sharecropping (was: Wookiebooks)
In-Reply-To:  note of 06/26/95 20:32
To: "SF & Fantasy Discussion Forum" <[log in to unmask]>


To say that Duane, Foster, and David "made their initial niche in writing Trek
stuff," as Gary Warren said, is not so. Both Duane and Foster had already
published substantial novels (Tar-Aiym Krang, Bloodhype, etc. for Foster; Door
into Fire for Duane).I am not familiar with Peter David's work, so Gary's
point may be valid for him. For quite a while, Foster was king of the sf
novelizers, much to the detriment to his career (artistically, if not
financially). Duane seems to have found her true talent writing young adult
fantasys. In both these authors' cases, their tie-in work was the low point of
their writing lives.

Bob

Robert A. Roehm
Asst., Office of Collection Mgmt., Ekstrom Library
Univ of Louisville, Louisville KY 40292
[log in to unmask] - (502)852-8715

From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 08:18:57 1995
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From: "D.R.S.Hipple -David Hipple" <[log in to unmask]>
To: sf-lit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 2001 and Blade Runner
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 13:17:00 BST
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>I have to agree with Mr. Scott; to dismiss a film as simply "too long" is
>extreme.  However, there is a classic example; namely, that of Frank
>Herbert's Dune - both too long in the book form, and entirely out of place 
in
>a film setting.
>
>Lisa Adams


But if the film had been about three times the length it was eventually 
hacked down to, maybe it would have made some kind of sense.  In a vaguely 
analogous war/politics context, Kurosawa's epic film Kagemusha does a pretty 
good job .  I think it lasts well over three hours, and even with subtitles 
it remains gripping and coherent.  (I can't remember exactly offhand, though 
 - one thing about films of this length is that you don't get to see them 
that often!)

          Dave

From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 09:05:37 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Bladerunner sequel & Alternate History

The _Bladerunner_ sequel mentioned may be a reference to a book coming out 
this fall (which also ties this post into the ongoing work-for-hire debate) 
called _Bladerunner 2: The Edge of Human_ by K.W. Jeter. I've read it, and it 
doesn't completely stink, but it's really just more iterations of the same 
characters going much the same things, but for no good reason this time.

As to the objection to my Alternate History post: yes, you got me. There is 
the weird bastard sub-genre of Alternate Histories with Magic (Randall 
Garrett's Lord Darcy stories being the other major example), which obviously 
cannot be considered SF. Oops. That's the kind of thing people who are making 
categories try to ignore as much as possible, 'cause it mucks exerything up. 
But I don't think those examples dump the whole Alternate History field into 
Fantasy, do they?


Andy Wheeler

From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 09:12:28 1995
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Date: Tue, 27 Jun 95 09:12:20 EDT
From: [log in to unmask] (Marina Frants)
Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: written vs. films

> 
> The rest isn't worth arguing about any further, but your statement that "a
> lot of writers aren't going to get published because of their
> sex/race/economic status and who they know, too" is, in a word, bullshit.
> Every writer you have read, of any gender, race, or economic status,
> had to buck the same odds when breaking into the field. The good ones
> managed; the bad ones didn't. 

Precisely.  I guess that's why I have trouble believing that media books
really shut out new writers, or kill the midlist, or whatever.  If my 
first novel ends up languishing in a desk drawer, I'll be pretty bummed,
but I wouldn't dream of blaming on Wookiebooks any more than I'd dream
of blaming it on my gender.  Either I'm good enough, or I'm not.

Marina Frants
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From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 09:21:42 1995
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Message-Id: <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: SF/Fantasy and magic 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 27 Jun 1995 07:47:02 EDT."
             <[log in to unmask]> 
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 15:21:48 +0200
From: Corinna Mergelsberg <[log in to unmask]>

>[log in to unmask] wrote:
>Question: Is the "Alternate History" story taking place in an alternate
>history at a higher technology level than our own?  if so, it is SF.  If not,
>assuming that it contains no magic, it is neither SF nor fantasy

Can I construe this to mean that the/a (?) defining element of fantasy
is magic?
Granted, I guess there are very few stories of this sort (I want to
avoid the term fantasy here) without magic (can somebody think of an 
example? I can't offhand), but is magic really the necessary ingredient?

If I were to write a novel set in, say, another universe with a medie-
val or renaissance technology level (as opposed to the higher level
you use), BUT without magic of any kind, would this be fantasy? Does
another term exist or would we have to coin one?

Corinna
--
 Corinna Mergelsberg    [log in to unmask] 
 WWW: http://www.whu-koblenz.de/~cmergel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Es hat der Abend seine Netze ausgespannt,
  und von den blauen Bergen steig ich nieder.
                               Li-tai-pe

From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 09:22:36 1995
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From: [log in to unmask]
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: sex/race/class & who you know

As someone working in publishing, I'll second Resnick's remarks: everyone I 
know or have heard of doesn't care at all who a writer is, only how well 
he/she/it/they write. It's a business, not a popularity contest.


Andy Wheeler

From [log in to unmask]  Tue Jun 27 09:26:28 1995
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Date:         Tue, 27 Jun 95 08:46:15 EDT
From: Doug Kuiper <