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SF-LIT  May 1997

SF-LIT May 1997

Subject:

Maturity, X-files, media, SF-LIT, Ender's Game, SF-plots and also no subject

From:

Nicola Gebendinger <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Science Fiction and Fantasy Listserv <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 22 May 1997 07:22:03 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (221 lines)

From:    =93Colleen R.C. Stumbaugh=94 <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: X-files, media, and SF-LIT

>  Where I hope we differ is that the list is for academic,
> research, and scholarly discussions.  While not all threads
> are that high minded, I think we all do a pretty good job of
> staying on track.  If a thread goes completely off subject
> (as the discussion of language and the deaf is threatening
> to do), I will kill it.

        Academic research and scholarly discussion? Then I=92m on the wrong list!
But I won=92t sign off only for that. :::evil grin:::

        Hmmm. How about tyin=92 the language-=92n=92-deaf thread to SF by bringing =
to
the list=92s attention that marvellous story by John Varley, THE PERSISTENCE
OF THE VISION (1979 Nebula and Hugo winner)? Anybody read it?

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From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: X-Files

> I would really appreciate it if the X-files discussion would
> stop. Not everyone likes that show, and it isn=92t exactly
> science fiction. If you want to discuss the X-files, please
> subscribe to an X-files list. Thank you. :)

        If you=92re working with single pieces of email, Talia, you can always look
at their subject and delete them. That you can=92t do that is the one
drawback of working with the digest.
        And while I don=92t particularly care for the X-files either, I wouldn=92t
label it as non-science-fiction tout court. It is more than half in UFOs
and in the paranormal, but telepathy, telekinesis, and extraterrestrial
spaceships are respected elements also of SF, horror and fantasy. So...

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

From: Edward James <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: X-Files

> 2. Why are we talking about films and TV on an =93sf-lit=94 list
> anyway? I thought the chat about Boucher was much more
> interesting... Let=92s stick to lit!

        Any medium is as good as any other one, Edward. I=92m book-oriented too, bu=
t
I don=92t see anything wrong in discussing movies, TV series or so... :)

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

From:    Betsy Cyson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Ender=92s Game

> Let me clear something up: I meant =93proof=94 as in in the
> context of science fiction, not as actual =93proof=94 proof. I
> probably should have worded that differently.

        Then please reword your position. No offense meant, but I haven=92t
understood what you want to say here, and my first impression is that you
haven=92t clear the difference. Hope I=92m wrong, but it=92s up to you to=
 prove it.
        Using a piece of fiction as proof is not a very good idea, in my opinion:
the characters in it are the author=92s puppet and (s)he can tailor =91em to
suit his/her needs.

        As for the maturity that Card gave to Ender and the other children in his
book smacks of artificial. This particular discussion has put into word
something I always felt about the book: Ender and his fellows are *adults*
and their age is only a disguise. O. S. Card was writing in favor of
pacifism, and he couldn=92t do it as effectively using adult characters as h=
e
could with children.

> Anyway, what I=92m trying to say is that I=92m appalled at all
> of the ageism on this list. Remember when you were 15 and no
> one listened to you? Or even cared?

        Hmm, Betsy, you=92ve got this wrong, I=92m afraid. Don=92t confound disagre=
ement
with ageism: they=92re two completely different things. We listen to
everybody, sometimes we even think on what it is said, but always we throw
in our opinion. Thinking the less of somebody just because we disagree with
him/her or because (s)he=92s 20+ years younger than many other posters (I
don=92t know about the lurkers) fortunately doesn=92t work here. Just keep
reading, thinking, posting and don=92t let yourself be scared by how many
people disagree with your points!

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

From:    =93Alicia Z. Ramos=94 <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Maturity/Ender=92s Game

Umberto Rossi wrote:

>>> That is not maturity, that is cleverness.  Not the same
>>> ballpark, not the same league, not even the same sport.
>>>  In the novel Ender has to grow up before he can achieve
>>> maturity and become the speaker for the dead...

> While I agree with the person who noted that a fictional
> character=92s abilities cannot reasonably be used to prove
> what real people can/cannot do (a different response to the
> question of Ender), I will (with only mild trepidation)
> venture to disagree with Dr. Rossi=92s point.  I think Ender
> was already mature enough, at the time of the final battle
> in _Ender=92s Game_, to understand the tragedy of what he had
> been duped into doing.  That it took him some time to decide
> how to deal with the results does not negate his immediate
> comprehension.

        I=92ll venture (with no trepidation at all) to disagree with this point. It
definitely takes longer to mature that way. I think I opted for doing civil
service service (the unarmed alternative to the military service) only when
I was 15 or 16, not when I was 10 or 12. I wouldn=92t have been mature enoug=
h
to make a proper decision, then. And I wouldn=92t have understood =93Ender=
=92s
game=94, at 10 or 12.

        Uh, a point nobody raised: =93Ender=92s Game=94 appeared as a story (copyri=
ght
1978) and in a novel (copyright 1985, if I understand it correctly). In the
original story, when Ender is explained the situation simply goes to sleep.
In the novel he falls into quite a state of coma. If this is any indication
of the load of guilt he bears, then this load is much greater in the novel
than in the original story. If the guilt Ender bears is an indication of
his maturity, then he is much more mature in the novel than in the story.
It took Orson Scott Card SEVEN YEARS to change Ender=92s specs that much.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

From:    Umberto Rossi <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: SF Plots (ma non solo)

> Or, as Goethe said, Kein Wesen kann zu Nichts zerfallen.
> ($ 1,50 for the translation)

        Nessuna essenza pu=F2 disgregarsi in nulla.
        (Paga, Umberto: pochi, maledetti e subito!)

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

From:    Sosaria Trask <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: <No subject given>

>        How many titles, Sosaria?

> *More the better.  I got through books really fast, at the
> rate of one 5-600 page book every 24 hours.  Faster if I can
> get into it.*

        Hrumpf! I used to be a much faster reader than I=92m now, but even I wasn=
=92t
able to read 5-600 pages in 24 hours! Or maybe I did, when I prepared the
ecology exam in just 10 days: I topped the 1000 pages in 12 hours. (Got a
93, btw, and grammar and spelling weren=92t an issue <G>!)

>>        I guess that it depends on how much under 20 you
>> are, however;

> *Right now, I=92m just under 15, but my reading level is well
> above High school level.  (snip)

>        Depending on how near the 20 years mark you are, I=92d
> also add all the Poul Anderson=92s and Larry Niven=92s fiction
> you can lay hand on...

        Well, I asked the age because I found Anderson and Niven a bit difficult
when I was 15. Anderson more than Niven, I admit. It was their philosophy
more than their science to be difficult... This reminds me, Heinlein=92s
CITIZEN OF THE GALAXY and STARSHIP TROOPERS could be somewhat heavy. I read
CITIZEN at 14/15 and it scared the hell out of me.

        So, by Anderson there are the Polesotechnic League and Terran Empire
cycles plus a variety of =93minor=94 books [THE MERMAN=92S CHILDREN, OPERATI=
ON
CHAOS (no, they=92re fantasies) AFTER DOOMSDAY, THE STAR FOX, TAU ZERO and
others).
        By Niven, there=92re the Known Space anthologies, which I liked, and novels=
,
including the Ringworld ones. I mention also PROTECTOR.

> *What about Orson Scott Card?  I have his =93Homecoming
> Harmony and Earth=94 books, but my mother confinscated them to
> read, and I haven=92t seen them since.*

        Frankly, the only story/book by Card I enjoyed was =93Ender=92s Game=94.

        Then there=92re Brin and Benford (their joint venture THE HEART OF THE COME=
T
is great) and Hinz=92s =93Liege-Killer=94 but unless you=92ve got a scientif=
ically
oriented mind you might find =91em though.
        Among the out-of-print ones (used bookstores!), you might want to try Van
Vogt (THE SILKIE, SLAN, THE WEAPON-SHOPS OF ISHER, MISSION TO THE STAR) and
Edmond Hamilton (DOOMSTAR and the science-fantasy THE VALLEY OF CREATION).
I enjoyed them quite a bit when I was 15, but excepted SLAN and DOOMSTAR
survived a rereading 20 years later.

> Thank you.

        I definitely have to prepare a computerized list of my library! So next
time somebody asks for suggestions I=92ll be prepared!

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

From:    Robert Micallef <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: SF Plots (ma non solo)

> ..and did not Asimov admit that the inspiration for the
> Foundation came from Gibbon=92s Decline and Fall of the Roman
> Empire?

        He did.

        Nicola
        [log in to unmask]

        Who play wid de puppy get bit wid de fleas. (British Guiana)

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