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I am sending this to the whole ISO JAC. Discussion related to the voting has taken place on the voting list. I would like to resolve the issue of Walloon. The requester has been waiting a very long time for an answer. I will summarize where I think we are. In the ballot sent out on 2 Jan., all members of the commitee voted "yes" on the ISO 639-2 code and name. All members of the committee except one (Christian) voted "yes" on the ISO 639-1 code. Some of Christian's reasons for not voting yes on 639-1 were also reasons not to approve the 639-2 code. However, it seems that given discussion and the original justification submitted that we should not deny the requester at least the 639-2 code. (In addition, Ethnologue considered the evidence and decided to add as a separate language. The criteria for Ethnologue is different, but the reasoning for adding is relevant here.) At this point I would like to consider that the ballot for 639-2 has been approved. The one for 639-1 is still under discussion. I would like to conclude this discussion by Friday 24 Jan. and send out another ballot, just for the ISO 639-1 code on that day. Please conclude discussions. Rebecca On Fri, 18 Jan 2002, Havard Hjulstad wrote: > Shouldn't this discussion be moved to the whole JAC list now, not just the > JACVOTE part? > > I wouldn't mind postponing the inclusion of Walloon until we have a clearer > picture of the whole future language coding system. > > There are obviously many types of language variations that are more or less > intelligible for users of other variants of the same language. > > Norwegians speak Norwegian and Swedes speak Swedish and Danes speak Danish, > and they may very well do it together, understanding eachother. If someone > described this by saying that "Norwegian" is the Danish that is spoken in > Norway (or even "worse": "Norwegian" is the Swedish that is spoken in > Norway) I would say that this is completely wrong, and then I would think > about the historical and linguistic "facts" and say that this could have > been a correct way to describe the situation. The reason why it isn't > correct has nothing to do with language itself. Napoleon plays a more > important role. Random red lines on the maps created by wars and > international politics have given separate language identifiers to our > languages. > > Apart from the important (and "impossible") discussion of what is a language > and what is a dialect and what is what kind of language variation I think > that the Walloon issue has two important questions: > > (1) What is the usage (and sentiment) among Belgian authorities and > institutions and individuals? (I am sure that this isn't unambiguous.) Do > they speak the "Belgian variant of French called Walloon" or do they speak > the "Belgian language Walloon, which is very closesly related to French"? > Certainly, very few English speakers in the US speak "American". They speak > "English", sometimes called "American English". The users themselves are NOT > signalling to us that they "demand" that a new identifier be assigned for > "American". Aren't users of Walloon sending a different signal? > > (2) Based on Christian's argument, is it logically correct to assign an > alpha-3 identifier, but not an alpha-2 identifier? I cannot see that his > arguments can be viewed differently in relation to 639-2. (And I am NOT > saying that Christian's arguments are invalid!) > > Just an attempt to add to the confusion ... > > Best regards, > Havard > ------------------------- > Havard Hjulstad mailto:[log in to unmask] > Solfallsveien 31 > NO-1430 As, Norway > tel: +47-64944233 & +47-64963684 > mob: +47-90145563 > http://www.hjulstad.com/havard/ > ------------------------- > > -----Original Message----- > From: ISO JAC Voting Member List [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of > Christian Galinski > Sent: 18. januar 2002 00:13 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: [JACVOTE] AW: [JACVOTE] AW: [JACVOTE] Ballot: Walloon > > > May I reformulate my arguments: > > I did not approve inclusion in ISO 639-1 for the following reasons: > If we include Walloon, we also have to include all kinds of variants for > major languages, like > enUS, enAU, enNZ, enUK etc. > deAT, deDE, deCH, etc. > not to mention Chinese, French, etc. > > In specialized languages the nature of the communication barrier between > variants of a language is different from those in common language, where > strong dialects or other kinds of variants often makes them mutually > unintelligible. It is accepted by experts from most of the subject fields > that there are different administrative and legal traditions (e.g. between > the different English speaking countries, German Lander etc.) and even > scientific-technical development traditions (e.g. Danube hydroelectricity > technology), but experts would not claim this as being a different language. > I am not sure whether language policies, linguistic nationalism etc. is an > argument. On the other hand, we have cases, like Bosnian, Slowakian, etc. If > I am wrong, please correct me. > > I have the strong feeling that, if we do not make our rules clearer also for > such cases, the 639-1 code will be filled up in a very short time and there > will not be many language identifiers left for big language communities with > emerging specialised languages and terminologies - among others due to the > Internet. > > I think we need to study this issue once again and possibly fine-tune or > redifine the requirements for languages to be included in ISO 639-1. > > So I am not strictly opposed against the inclusion of Walloon in principle, > but would like to have the JAC policy made clear for this and similar cases. > > Best regards > Christian > > > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: ISO JAC Voting Member List [mailto:[log in to unmask]]Im Auftrag von > Rebecca S. Guenther > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 17. Janner 2002 16:39 > An: [log in to unmask] > Betreff: Re: [JACVOTE] AW: [JACVOTE] Ballot: Walloon > > > Christian has voted no on adding an alpha-2 code for Walloon. According to > our rules, we have to conduct a second vote. On the second vote we need 5 > yes votes for it to pass. > > Could we discuss this please before deciding how to vote the second > time? What do others think? > > Rebecca > > > > > > > > > > Submitter: see below > > > > PLEASE VOTE NO LATER THAN 16 Jan. 2002! > > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > ^^ Rebecca S. Guenther ^^ > > ^^ Chair, ISO 639/Joint Advisory Committee ^^ > > ^^ Network Development and MARC Standards Office ^^ > > ^^ 1st and Independence Ave. SE ^^ > > ^^ Library of Congress ^^ > > ^^ Washington, DC 20540-4402 ^^ > > ^^ (202) 707-5092 (voice) (202) 707-0115 (FAX) ^^ > > ^^ [log in to unmask] ^^ > > ^^ ^^ > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Earlier message and original request: > > > > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:40:09 -0500 > > Reply-To: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]> > > Sender: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]> > > From: "Rebecca S. Guenther" <[log in to unmask]> > > Subject: Walloon > > Comments: To: [log in to unmask] > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN > > > > See attached request for Walloon. I have had numerous email conversations > > with the requestors about this over the last several months. It was > > initially not clear that Walloon might be considered a separate language > > rather than a dialect of French. Now further consideration, especially by > > the editors of Ethnologue, indicate that it could be given a language > > code. From the various conversations and the evidence presented below, > > there are plenty of documents to meet the criteria for establishing it. > > > > Note that the request is for both a 639-1 and 639-2 code. The code chosen > > for 639-2 is "wln", since "wal" is already taken (for Walamo). I will > > send out a ballot shortly. > > > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > ^^ Rebecca S. Guenther ^^ > > ^^ Chair, ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee ^^ > > ^^ Senior Networking and Standards Specialist ^^ > > ^^ Library of Congress ^^ > > ^^ Washington, DC 20540-4402 ^^ > > ^^ (202) 707-5092 (voice) (202) 707-0115 (FAX) ^^ > > ^^ [log in to unmask] ^^ > > ^^ ^^ > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:07:26 -0500 > > From: WWW generic account <[log in to unmask]> > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: New ISO 639-2 code > > > > This data was submitted on: Friday, December 7, 2001 at 16:07:26 > > > > lang_in_eng = Walloon > > lang_in_fre = wallon > > ref_where_found_1 = http://www.wallonie.com/wallang/ > > lang_in_vern = walon > > ref_where_found_2 = http://www.wallonie.com/wallang/wal-wal.htm > > trans_lit = > > > > evidence = Conseil des Langues rigionales endoghnes: 44, Bd Liopold II, > > 1080 Bruxelles > > Union culturelle wallonne: 71, rue du giniral De Gaulle; B-4000 Lndje > > (Lihge) (http://ucw.be.tf) > > Sociiti de langue et de littirature wallonnes > > (http://users.skynet.be/sllw/) > > Lhs Rhlns Namurwhs (http://relis-namurwes.be) > > Li Ranteule, 165 ruwe di Lonziye, 5030 Djiblou > > (Gembloux) (http://aberteke.walon.org/) > > > > Other web sites in Walloon > > ------------------- > > - Translation of the Declaration of Human > > Rights: http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/frn1.htm > > - Unix software localization (in > > Walloon) pages: http://users.skynet.be/bs302306/linux/ and > > http://www.ping.be/linux/walon/ > > - Monolingual dictionary: http://moti.walon.org/ > > - Online walloon grammar (in > > Walloon): http://users.skynet.be/croejhete/pi_cr/index.html > > - Web site about all things Walloon: http://aberteke.walon.org > > - Union culturelle wallonne - section of > > Namur: http://users.skynet.be/frn-ucw/index.htm > > - Walloon satyrical magazine > > "Rabulets": http://chanae.stben.be/walon/rabulets/ > > - Walloon writer Josi > > Schoovaerts: http://www.angelfire.com/me/schoovlab/PINSEYES.html > > - Walloon writer > > G. Puissant: http://biant.unige.ch/~puissant/WALLON/textewal.html > > - Page on language standardization: http://rifondou.walon.org/ > > addinfo = - Official status: +Langue rigionale endoghne; in a decree > > voted in 1999 by the Parliament of the Communauti frangaise de Belgique > > (one of the federal entities of the State of Belgium) > > - Estimated number of speakers: 1,000,000 (see Lorint > > Hendschel: "Quelques indices pour se faire une idie de la vitaliti du > > wallon" in "Qui walon po dmwin", Quorum, 1999 (ISBN 2-87399-072-4) > > - Where spoken: Wallonia (southern region of the Belgian federal state). > > request_addition = ISO 639-1 and ISO 639-2 > > 2_code_suggestion = wa > > 3_code_suggestion = wln > > submit_name = Lorint HENDSCHEL > > submit_email = [log in to unmask] > > submit_status = Speaker. > > Writer. > > Teacher (night school for adults). > > Linguist (doctorate in linguistics in progress at the Universiti > > catholique de Louvain, Wallonia, Belgium) > > >