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Perhaps we could consider it against each point in the list of criteria
that we established for 639-1
(at: http://lcweb.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/criteria1.html

Relation to ISO 639-2. Since ISO 639-1 is to remain a subset of ISO 639-2,
it must first satisfy the requirements for ISO 639-2 and also satisfy the
following.

Documentation.  a significant body of existing documents (specialized
texts, such as college or university textbooks, technical documentation manuals,
specialized journals, subject-field related books, etc.) written in
specialized languages a number of existing terminologies in various subject
fields (e.g. technical dictionaries, specialized glossaries, vocabularies, etc. in printed
or electronic form)

Recommendation. A recommendation and support of a specialized authority
(such as a standards organization, governmental body, linguistic
institution, or cultural organization)

Other considerations
  the number of speakers of the language community
  the recognized status of the language in one or more countries
  the support of the request by one or more official bodies

Collective codes. ISO 639-1 does not use collective codes. If these are
necessary the alpha-3 code shall be used.

Probably the one that it may not satisfy is the support of the request by
one or more official bodies.

Rebecca

On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Havard Hjulstad wrote:

> I agree that there seems to be consensus that Walloon needs to be included
> in the alpha-3 list. There is NOT 100 % agreement that it should be added in
> the alpha-2 list, but the "problem" is that the arguments for not adding it
> in the alpha-2 list is just as valid in relation to the alpha-3 list.
>
> The argument that "if this is added, then also so-and-so-and-so needs to be
> added" is valid; but I don't think that this applies to "if Walloon then
> also de-AT and en-US, etc.". "Walloon" is Walloon, not "fr-BE"!
>
> We do need to worry that the alpha-2 list can only hold some 490 additional
> items (but that is more than 2.5 times the current number). May be the
> alpha-2 list cannot "live for ever"?
>
> We don't have absolute rules for inclusion in neither the alpha-2 nor the
> alpha-3 list. "No room in the list" is never an argument; no need from a
> terminology and language resource point of view is a valid argument when it
> comes to the alpha-2 list. Do we have any clear information from that point
> of view?
>
> Havard
>
> -------------------------
> Havard Hjulstad    mailto:[log in to unmask]
>   Solfallsveien 31
>   NO-1430  As, Norway
>   tel: +47-64944233  &  +47-64963684
>   mob: +47-90145563
>   http://www.hjulstad.com/havard/
> -------------------------
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf
> Of Rebecca S. Guenther
> Sent: 23. januar 2002 16:34
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Walloon: resolution needed
>
>
> I am sending this to the whole ISO JAC. Discussion related to the voting
> has taken place on the voting list.
>
> I would like to resolve the issue of Walloon. The requester has been
> waiting a very long time for an answer.
>
> I will summarize where I think we are.
>
> In the ballot sent out on 2 Jan., all members of the commitee voted "yes"
> on the ISO 639-2 code and name. All members of the committee except one
> (Christian) voted "yes" on the ISO 639-1 code. Some of Christian's reasons
> for not voting yes on 639-1 were also reasons not to approve the 639-2
> code.  However, it seems that given discussion and the original
> justification submitted that we should not deny the requester at least the
> 639-2 code.  (In addition, Ethnologue considered the evidence and decided
> to add as a separate language. The criteria for Ethnologue is different,
> but the reasoning for adding is relevant here.)
>
> At this point I would like to consider that the ballot for 639-2 has been
> approved. The one for 639-1 is still under discussion. I would like to
> conclude this discussion by Friday 24 Jan. and send out another ballot,
> just for the ISO 639-1 code on that day. Please conclude discussions.
>
> Rebecca
>
> On Fri, 18 Jan 2002, Havard Hjulstad wrote:
>
> > Shouldn't this discussion be moved to the whole JAC list now, not just the
> > JACVOTE part?
> >
> > I wouldn't mind postponing the inclusion of Walloon until we have a
> clearer
> > picture of the whole future language coding system.
> >
> > There are obviously many types of language variations that are more or
> less
> > intelligible for users of other variants of the same language.
> >
> > Norwegians speak Norwegian and Swedes speak Swedish and Danes speak
> Danish,
> > and they may very well do it together, understanding eachother. If someone
> > described this by saying that "Norwegian" is the Danish that is spoken in
> > Norway (or even "worse": "Norwegian" is the Swedish that is spoken in
> > Norway) I would say that this is completely wrong, and then I would think
> > about the historical and linguistic "facts" and say that this could have
> > been a correct way to describe the situation. The reason why it isn't
> > correct has nothing to do with language itself. Napoleon plays a more
> > important role. Random red lines on the maps created by wars and
> > international politics have given separate language identifiers to our
> > languages.
> >
> > Apart from the important (and "impossible") discussion of what is a
> language
> > and what is a dialect and what is what kind of language variation I think
> > that the Walloon issue has two important questions:
> >
> > (1) What is the usage (and sentiment) among Belgian authorities and
> > institutions and individuals? (I am sure that this isn't unambiguous.) Do
> > they speak the "Belgian variant of French called Walloon" or do they speak
> > the "Belgian language Walloon, which is very closesly related to French"?
> > Certainly, very few English speakers in the US speak "American". They
> speak
> > "English", sometimes called "American English". The users themselves are
> NOT
> > signalling to us that they "demand" that a new identifier be assigned for
> > "American". Aren't users of Walloon sending a different signal?
> >
> > (2) Based on Christian's argument, is it logically correct to assign an
> > alpha-3 identifier, but not an alpha-2 identifier? I cannot see that his
> > arguments can be viewed differently in relation to 639-2. (And I am NOT
> > saying that Christian's arguments are invalid!)
> >
> > Just an attempt to add to the confusion ...
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Havard
> > -------------------------
> > Havard Hjulstad    mailto:[log in to unmask]
> >   Solfallsveien 31
> >   NO-1430  As, Norway
> >   tel: +47-64944233  &  +47-64963684
> >   mob: +47-90145563
> >   http://www.hjulstad.com/havard/
> > -------------------------
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ISO JAC Voting Member List [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
> > Christian Galinski
> > Sent: 18. januar 2002 00:13
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: [JACVOTE] AW: [JACVOTE] AW: [JACVOTE] Ballot: Walloon
> >
> >
> > May I reformulate my arguments:
> >
> > I did not approve inclusion in ISO 639-1 for the following reasons:
> > If we include Walloon, we also have to include all kinds of variants for
> > major languages, like
> > enUS, enAU, enNZ, enUK etc.
> > deAT, deDE, deCH, etc.
> > not to mention Chinese, French, etc.
> >
> > In specialized languages the nature of the communication barrier between
> > variants of a language is different from those in common language, where
> > strong dialects or other kinds of variants often makes them mutually
> > unintelligible. It is accepted by experts from most of the subject fields
> > that there are different administrative and legal traditions (e.g. between
> > the different English speaking countries, German Lander etc.) and even
> > scientific-technical development traditions (e.g. Danube hydroelectricity
> > technology), but experts would not claim this as being a different
> language.
> > I am not sure whether language policies, linguistic nationalism etc. is an
> > argument. On the other hand, we have cases, like Bosnian, Slowakian, etc.
> If
> > I am wrong, please correct me.
> >
> > I have the strong feeling that, if we do not make our rules clearer also
> for
> > such cases, the 639-1 code will be filled up in a very short time and
> there
> > will not be many language identifiers left for big language communities
> with
> > emerging specialised languages and terminologies  - among others due to
> the
> > Internet.
> >
> > I think we need to study this issue once again and possibly fine-tune or
> > redifine the requirements for languages to be included in ISO 639-1.
> >
> > So I am not strictly opposed against the inclusion of Walloon in
> principle,
> > but would like to have the JAC policy made clear for this and similar
> cases.
> >
> > Best regards
> > Christian
> >
> >
> > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: ISO JAC Voting Member List [mailto:[log in to unmask]]Im Auftrag von
> > Rebecca S. Guenther
> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 17. Janner 2002 16:39
> > An: [log in to unmask]
> > Betreff: Re: [JACVOTE] AW: [JACVOTE] Ballot: Walloon
> >
> >
> > Christian has voted no on adding an alpha-2 code for Walloon. According to
> > our rules, we have to conduct a second vote. On the second vote we need 5
> > yes votes for it to pass.
> >
> > Could we discuss this please before deciding how to vote the second
> > time? What do others think?
> >
> > Rebecca
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Submitter: see below
> > >
> > > PLEASE VOTE NO LATER THAN 16 Jan. 2002!
> > >
> > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > ^^  Rebecca S. Guenther                                   ^^
> > > ^^  Chair, ISO 639/Joint Advisory Committee               ^^
> > > ^^  Network Development and MARC Standards Office         ^^
> > > ^^  1st and Independence Ave. SE                          ^^
> > > ^^  Library of Congress                                   ^^
> > > ^^  Washington, DC 20540-4402                             ^^
> > > ^^  (202) 707-5092 (voice)    (202) 707-0115 (FAX)        ^^
> > > ^^  [log in to unmask]                                          ^^
> > > ^^                                                        ^^
> > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > Earlier message and original request:
> > >
> > > Date:         Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:40:09 -0500
> > >  Reply-To:     ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee
> <[log in to unmask]>
> > >  Sender:       ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee
> <[log in to unmask]>
> > >  From:         "Rebecca S. Guenther" <[log in to unmask]>
> > >  Subject:      Walloon
> > >  Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
> > >  Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN
> > >
> > >  See attached request for Walloon. I have had numerous email
> conversations
> > >  with the requestors about this over the last several months. It was
> > >  initially not clear that Walloon might be considered a separate
> language
> > >  rather than a dialect of French. Now further consideration, especially
> by
> > >  the editors of Ethnologue, indicate that it could be given a language
> > >  code. From the various conversations and the evidence presented below,
> > >  there are plenty of documents to meet the criteria for establishing it.
> > >
> > >  Note that the request is for both a 639-1 and 639-2 code. The code
> chosen
> > >  for 639-2 is "wln", since "wal" is already taken (for Walamo). I will
> > > send out a ballot shortly.
> > >
> > >  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >  ^^  Rebecca S. Guenther                                   ^^
> > >  ^^  Chair, ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee               ^^
> > >  ^^  Senior Networking and Standards Specialist            ^^
> > >  ^^  Library of Congress                                   ^^
> > >  ^^  Washington, DC 20540-4402                             ^^
> > >  ^^  (202) 707-5092 (voice)    (202) 707-0115 (FAX)        ^^
> > >  ^^  [log in to unmask]                                          ^^
> > >  ^^                                                        ^^
> > >  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >
> > >  ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > >  Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:07:26 -0500
> > >  From: WWW generic account <[log in to unmask]>
> > >  To: [log in to unmask]
> > >  Subject: New ISO 639-2 code
> > >
> > >  This data was submitted on: Friday, December 7, 2001 at 16:07:26
> > >
> > >  lang_in_eng = Walloon
> > >  lang_in_fre = wallon
> > >  ref_where_found_1 = http://www.wallonie.com/wallang/
> > >  lang_in_vern = walon
> > >  ref_where_found_2 = http://www.wallonie.com/wallang/wal-wal.htm
> > >  trans_lit =
> > >
> > >  evidence = Conseil des Langues rigionales endoghnes: 44, Bd Liopold II,
> > > 1080 Bruxelles
> > >  Union culturelle wallonne: 71, rue du giniral De Gaulle; B-4000 Lndje
> > > (Lihge) (http://ucw.be.tf)
> > >  Sociiti de langue et de littirature wallonnes
> > > (http://users.skynet.be/sllw/)
> > >  Lhs Rhlns Namurwhs (http://relis-namurwes.be)
> > >  Li Ranteule,  165 ruwe di Lonziye, 5030 Djiblou
> > > (Gembloux) (http://aberteke.walon.org/)
> > >
> > >  Other web sites in Walloon
> > >  -------------------
> > >  - Translation of the Declaration of Human
> > > Rights: http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/frn1.htm
> > >  - Unix software localization (in
> > > Walloon) pages: http://users.skynet.be/bs302306/linux/ and
> > > http://www.ping.be/linux/walon/
> > >  - Monolingual dictionary: http://moti.walon.org/
> > >  - Online walloon grammar (in
> > > Walloon): http://users.skynet.be/croejhete/pi_cr/index.html
> > >  - Web site about all things Walloon: http://aberteke.walon.org
> > >  - Union culturelle wallonne - section of
> > > Namur: http://users.skynet.be/frn-ucw/index.htm
> > >  - Walloon satyrical magazine
> > > "Rabulets": http://chanae.stben.be/walon/rabulets/
> > >  - Walloon writer Josi
> > > Schoovaerts: http://www.angelfire.com/me/schoovlab/PINSEYES.html
> > >  - Walloon writer
> > > G. Puissant: http://biant.unige.ch/~puissant/WALLON/textewal.html
> > >  - Page on language standardization: http://rifondou.walon.org/
> > >  addinfo = - Official status: +Langue rigionale endoghne; in a decree
> > > voted in 1999 by the Parliament of the Communauti frangaise de Belgique
> > > (one of the  federal entities of the State of Belgium)
> > >  - Estimated number of speakers: 1,000,000 (see Lorint
> > > Hendschel: "Quelques indices pour se faire une idie de la vitaliti du
> > > wallon" in "Qui walon po dmwin", Quorum, 1999 (ISBN 2-87399-072-4)
> > >  - Where spoken: Wallonia (southern region of the Belgian federal
> state).
> > >  request_addition = ISO 639-1 and ISO 639-2
> > >  2_code_suggestion = wa
> > >  3_code_suggestion = wln
> > >  submit_name = Lorint HENDSCHEL
> > >  submit_email = [log in to unmask]
> > >  submit_status = Speaker.
> > >  Writer.
> > >  Teacher (night school for adults).
> > >  Linguist (doctorate in linguistics in progress at the Universiti
> > > catholique de Louvain, Wallonia, Belgium)
> > >
> >
>