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I agree that there seems to be consensus that Walloon needs to be included
in the alpha-3 list. There is NOT 100 % agreement that it should be added in
the alpha-2 list, but the "problem" is that the arguments for not adding it
in the alpha-2 list is just as valid in relation to the alpha-3 list.

The argument that "if this is added, then also so-and-so-and-so needs to be
added" is valid; but I don't think that this applies to "if Walloon then
also de-AT and en-US, etc.". "Walloon" is Walloon, not "fr-BE"!

We do need to worry that the alpha-2 list can only hold some 490 additional
items (but that is more than 2.5 times the current number). May be the
alpha-2 list cannot "live for ever"?

We don't have absolute rules for inclusion in neither the alpha-2 nor the
alpha-3 list. "No room in the list" is never an argument; no need from a
terminology and language resource point of view is a valid argument when it
comes to the alpha-2 list. Do we have any clear information from that point
of view?

Havard

-------------------------
Havard Hjulstad    mailto:[log in to unmask]
  Solfallsveien 31
  NO-1430  As, Norway
  tel: +47-64944233  &  +47-64963684
  mob: +47-90145563
  http://www.hjulstad.com/havard/
-------------------------

-----Original Message-----
From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf
Of Rebecca S. Guenther
Sent: 23. januar 2002 16:34
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Walloon: resolution needed


I am sending this to the whole ISO JAC. Discussion related to the voting
has taken place on the voting list.

I would like to resolve the issue of Walloon. The requester has been
waiting a very long time for an answer.

I will summarize where I think we are.

In the ballot sent out on 2 Jan., all members of the commitee voted "yes"
on the ISO 639-2 code and name. All members of the committee except one
(Christian) voted "yes" on the ISO 639-1 code. Some of Christian's reasons
for not voting yes on 639-1 were also reasons not to approve the 639-2
code.  However, it seems that given discussion and the original
justification submitted that we should not deny the requester at least the
639-2 code.  (In addition, Ethnologue considered the evidence and decided
to add as a separate language. The criteria for Ethnologue is different,
but the reasoning for adding is relevant here.)

At this point I would like to consider that the ballot for 639-2 has been
approved. The one for 639-1 is still under discussion. I would like to
conclude this discussion by Friday 24 Jan. and send out another ballot,
just for the ISO 639-1 code on that day. Please conclude discussions.

Rebecca

On Fri, 18 Jan 2002, Havard Hjulstad wrote:

> Shouldn't this discussion be moved to the whole JAC list now, not just the
> JACVOTE part?
>
> I wouldn't mind postponing the inclusion of Walloon until we have a
clearer
> picture of the whole future language coding system.
>
> There are obviously many types of language variations that are more or
less
> intelligible for users of other variants of the same language.
>
> Norwegians speak Norwegian and Swedes speak Swedish and Danes speak
Danish,
> and they may very well do it together, understanding eachother. If someone
> described this by saying that "Norwegian" is the Danish that is spoken in
> Norway (or even "worse": "Norwegian" is the Swedish that is spoken in
> Norway) I would say that this is completely wrong, and then I would think
> about the historical and linguistic "facts" and say that this could have
> been a correct way to describe the situation. The reason why it isn't
> correct has nothing to do with language itself. Napoleon plays a more
> important role. Random red lines on the maps created by wars and
> international politics have given separate language identifiers to our
> languages.
>
> Apart from the important (and "impossible") discussion of what is a
language
> and what is a dialect and what is what kind of language variation I think
> that the Walloon issue has two important questions:
>
> (1) What is the usage (and sentiment) among Belgian authorities and
> institutions and individuals? (I am sure that this isn't unambiguous.) Do
> they speak the "Belgian variant of French called Walloon" or do they speak
> the "Belgian language Walloon, which is very closesly related to French"?
> Certainly, very few English speakers in the US speak "American". They
speak
> "English", sometimes called "American English". The users themselves are
NOT
> signalling to us that they "demand" that a new identifier be assigned for
> "American". Aren't users of Walloon sending a different signal?
>
> (2) Based on Christian's argument, is it logically correct to assign an
> alpha-3 identifier, but not an alpha-2 identifier? I cannot see that his
> arguments can be viewed differently in relation to 639-2. (And I am NOT
> saying that Christian's arguments are invalid!)
>
> Just an attempt to add to the confusion ...
>
> Best regards,
> Havard
> -------------------------
> Havard Hjulstad    mailto:[log in to unmask]
>   Solfallsveien 31
>   NO-1430  As, Norway
>   tel: +47-64944233  &  +47-64963684
>   mob: +47-90145563
>   http://www.hjulstad.com/havard/
> -------------------------
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ISO JAC Voting Member List [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
> Christian Galinski
> Sent: 18. januar 2002 00:13
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [JACVOTE] AW: [JACVOTE] AW: [JACVOTE] Ballot: Walloon
>
>
> May I reformulate my arguments:
>
> I did not approve inclusion in ISO 639-1 for the following reasons:
> If we include Walloon, we also have to include all kinds of variants for
> major languages, like
> enUS, enAU, enNZ, enUK etc.
> deAT, deDE, deCH, etc.
> not to mention Chinese, French, etc.
>
> In specialized languages the nature of the communication barrier between
> variants of a language is different from those in common language, where
> strong dialects or other kinds of variants often makes them mutually
> unintelligible. It is accepted by experts from most of the subject fields
> that there are different administrative and legal traditions (e.g. between
> the different English speaking countries, German Lander etc.) and even
> scientific-technical development traditions (e.g. Danube hydroelectricity
> technology), but experts would not claim this as being a different
language.
> I am not sure whether language policies, linguistic nationalism etc. is an
> argument. On the other hand, we have cases, like Bosnian, Slowakian, etc.
If
> I am wrong, please correct me.
>
> I have the strong feeling that, if we do not make our rules clearer also
for
> such cases, the 639-1 code will be filled up in a very short time and
there
> will not be many language identifiers left for big language communities
with
> emerging specialised languages and terminologies  - among others due to
the
> Internet.
>
> I think we need to study this issue once again and possibly fine-tune or
> redifine the requirements for languages to be included in ISO 639-1.
>
> So I am not strictly opposed against the inclusion of Walloon in
principle,
> but would like to have the JAC policy made clear for this and similar
cases.
>
> Best regards
> Christian
>
>
> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
> Von: ISO JAC Voting Member List [mailto:[log in to unmask]]Im Auftrag von
> Rebecca S. Guenther
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 17. Janner 2002 16:39
> An: [log in to unmask]
> Betreff: Re: [JACVOTE] AW: [JACVOTE] Ballot: Walloon
>
>
> Christian has voted no on adding an alpha-2 code for Walloon. According to
> our rules, we have to conduct a second vote. On the second vote we need 5
> yes votes for it to pass.
>
> Could we discuss this please before deciding how to vote the second
> time? What do others think?
>
> Rebecca
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Submitter: see below
> >
> > PLEASE VOTE NO LATER THAN 16 Jan. 2002!
> >
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > ^^  Rebecca S. Guenther                                   ^^
> > ^^  Chair, ISO 639/Joint Advisory Committee               ^^
> > ^^  Network Development and MARC Standards Office         ^^
> > ^^  1st and Independence Ave. SE                          ^^
> > ^^  Library of Congress                                   ^^
> > ^^  Washington, DC 20540-4402                             ^^
> > ^^  (202) 707-5092 (voice)    (202) 707-0115 (FAX)        ^^
> > ^^  [log in to unmask]                                          ^^
> > ^^                                                        ^^
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > Earlier message and original request:
> >
> > Date:         Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:40:09 -0500
> >  Reply-To:     ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee
<[log in to unmask]>
> >  Sender:       ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee
<[log in to unmask]>
> >  From:         "Rebecca S. Guenther" <[log in to unmask]>
> >  Subject:      Walloon
> >  Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
> >  Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN
> >
> >  See attached request for Walloon. I have had numerous email
conversations
> >  with the requestors about this over the last several months. It was
> >  initially not clear that Walloon might be considered a separate
language
> >  rather than a dialect of French. Now further consideration, especially
by
> >  the editors of Ethnologue, indicate that it could be given a language
> >  code. From the various conversations and the evidence presented below,
> >  there are plenty of documents to meet the criteria for establishing it.
> >
> >  Note that the request is for both a 639-1 and 639-2 code. The code
chosen
> >  for 639-2 is "wln", since "wal" is already taken (for Walamo). I will
> > send out a ballot shortly.
> >
> >  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >  ^^  Rebecca S. Guenther                                   ^^
> >  ^^  Chair, ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee               ^^
> >  ^^  Senior Networking and Standards Specialist            ^^
> >  ^^  Library of Congress                                   ^^
> >  ^^  Washington, DC 20540-4402                             ^^
> >  ^^  (202) 707-5092 (voice)    (202) 707-0115 (FAX)        ^^
> >  ^^  [log in to unmask]                                          ^^
> >  ^^                                                        ^^
> >  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> >  ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >  Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:07:26 -0500
> >  From: WWW generic account <[log in to unmask]>
> >  To: [log in to unmask]
> >  Subject: New ISO 639-2 code
> >
> >  This data was submitted on: Friday, December 7, 2001 at 16:07:26
> >
> >  lang_in_eng = Walloon
> >  lang_in_fre = wallon
> >  ref_where_found_1 = http://www.wallonie.com/wallang/
> >  lang_in_vern = walon
> >  ref_where_found_2 = http://www.wallonie.com/wallang/wal-wal.htm
> >  trans_lit =
> >
> >  evidence = Conseil des Langues rigionales endoghnes: 44, Bd Liopold II,
> > 1080 Bruxelles
> >  Union culturelle wallonne: 71, rue du giniral De Gaulle; B-4000 Lndje
> > (Lihge) (http://ucw.be.tf)
> >  Sociiti de langue et de littirature wallonnes
> > (http://users.skynet.be/sllw/)
> >  Lhs Rhlns Namurwhs (http://relis-namurwes.be)
> >  Li Ranteule,  165 ruwe di Lonziye, 5030 Djiblou
> > (Gembloux) (http://aberteke.walon.org/)
> >
> >  Other web sites in Walloon
> >  -------------------
> >  - Translation of the Declaration of Human
> > Rights: http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/frn1.htm
> >  - Unix software localization (in
> > Walloon) pages: http://users.skynet.be/bs302306/linux/ and
> > http://www.ping.be/linux/walon/
> >  - Monolingual dictionary: http://moti.walon.org/
> >  - Online walloon grammar (in
> > Walloon): http://users.skynet.be/croejhete/pi_cr/index.html
> >  - Web site about all things Walloon: http://aberteke.walon.org
> >  - Union culturelle wallonne - section of
> > Namur: http://users.skynet.be/frn-ucw/index.htm
> >  - Walloon satyrical magazine
> > "Rabulets": http://chanae.stben.be/walon/rabulets/
> >  - Walloon writer Josi
> > Schoovaerts: http://www.angelfire.com/me/schoovlab/PINSEYES.html
> >  - Walloon writer
> > G. Puissant: http://biant.unige.ch/~puissant/WALLON/textewal.html
> >  - Page on language standardization: http://rifondou.walon.org/
> >  addinfo = - Official status: +Langue rigionale endoghne; in a decree
> > voted in 1999 by the Parliament of the Communauti frangaise de Belgique
> > (one of the  federal entities of the State of Belgium)
> >  - Estimated number of speakers: 1,000,000 (see Lorint
> > Hendschel: "Quelques indices pour se faire une idie de la vitaliti du
> > wallon" in "Qui walon po dmwin", Quorum, 1999 (ISBN 2-87399-072-4)
> >  - Where spoken: Wallonia (southern region of the Belgian federal
state).
> >  request_addition = ISO 639-1 and ISO 639-2
> >  2_code_suggestion = wa
> >  3_code_suggestion = wln
> >  submit_name = Lorint HENDSCHEL
> >  submit_email = [log in to unmask]
> >  submit_status = Speaker.
> >  Writer.
> >  Teacher (night school for adults).
> >  Linguist (doctorate in linguistics in progress at the Universiti
> > catholique de Louvain, Wallonia, Belgium)
> >
>