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I also agree with statements below. I send this message also in order to
bring this discussion to the correct list: It belongs to the larger JAC
list, not to the JACVOTE list.

People have strong feelings connected to their names and the names and words
used to designate their own world. We definitely need to respect that. This
is actually a part of the English and French languages (or any language)
that users of those languages do NOT have all rights to control. We cannot
say that "this is just what it is called in English". We need to be careful
not to standardized "bad" names.

On the other hand: For retrieval of information it is important that both
"good" and "bad" names are recorded. If someone were to search for "Votiak"
in 639, we do want him/her to find "Udmurt". But the different names need to
be marked in some way, following some criteria. And we need relyable and
consistent information for the application of the markings.

All in all this is far beyond the scope and possibilities of the JAC. We
need a new and larger project to handle all this adequately, drawing on
experience and documentation in existing sources like Ethnologue and the
Linguasphere registry, and the academic linguistic community.

It feels unsatisfactory to deal with individual items and incomplete
information. However, the JAC cannot stop its work waiting for a "new and
perfect world". The JAC can draft rules relating to this, but the JAC cannot
collect all the evidence needed to apply the rules perfectly.

I suggest that we start working with these "naming rules", and that we
schedule a meeting in a not too distant future to discuss the topic.

Håvard

-------------------------
Håvard Hjulstad    mailto:[log in to unmask]
Chairman ISO/TC37 (Terminology and other language resources)
Convener of ISO/TC37/SC2/WG1 (Language coding)
Acting chairman of ISO 639 RA-JAC
  Solfallsveien 31
  NO-1430  Ås, Norway
  tel: +47 64963684  &  +47 64944233
  mob: +47 90145563
  http://www.hjulstad.com/havard/
-------------------------

-----Original Message-----
From: ISO JAC Voting Member List [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
Anila Angjeli
Sent: 5. mars 2003 18:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [JACVOTE] Réf. : [JACVOTE] AW: Preliminary results: ISO 639 JAC
ballot 1-2003 - Udmurt - NEW DISCUSSION - Until 2003-03-21


I agree with Christian about the necessity of a methodology inorder to avoid
the
sterile discussions about the legitimacy of the different existing forms of
language names and their status.  All the aspects revealed here below are
worth
considering. Nevertheles some of them are more likely to provoke reactions
than
others. I mean here, for example,  the criterion of the preference the
native
speakers have for one or another name of the language. We have to respect
the
native speaker's choice, but this doesn't mean that the "not preferred name
of
the language" (with exception of pejorative appelations) is not to be taken
into
account by the standard, even if these name of the langue is largely used by
other speakers. The database must enable the users to search the code by any
(?)
known form of the language.
About the eventual rules :
We may take advantage of the existing rules of the present standard ISO 639
for
the application of new language codes.
So one of the rules might be the quotation of the variant (form) name
proposed,
in a certain number of documents (number to be defined) or in different
databases or/and  internet sources.
Another might be the register, the level of the langue in which this name
has
been encounterd : scientific, linguistic studies, popular, etc.
Not to be forgotten the problems issued from the translitterated forms of
the
names, as well.

to be followed...

best regards
Anila




Christian Galinski <[log in to unmask]> le 05/03/2003 07:12:07

Veuillez répondre ā ISO JAC Voting Member List <[log in to unmask]>

Pour :    [log in to unmask]
cc :   (ccc : Anila ANGJELI/750/DIA/BnF)
Objet :   [JACVOTE] AW: Preliminary results: ISO 639 JAC ballot 1-2003 -
      Udmurt - NEW              DISCUSSION - Until 2003-03-21



Dear colleagues,
again the question of - let us call it - 'flavor' of names arises, which
means that theree is quite a range between preferred name(s) and
deprecated name(s). There may be 'also used' (or admitted, but
non-preferred), 'old' (and non-pre-ferred), 'old' (and deprecated),
'depreciatory', 'offensive', etc. all of which should be in the database
(with the respective comments). But only the preferred and admitted ones
should appear in the 'official' version of the standard (and the
respective data of the database). I think we need a simple methodology
here - not necessarily too complex, just a few rules. If we do not
register these aspects NOW, we will might have a big job in the future!
rgds
Christian

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]]Im Auftrag
von Håvard Hjulstad
Gesendet: Dienstag, 04. März 2003 12:35
An: [log in to unmask]
Betreff: Preliminary results: ISO 639 JAC ballot 1-2003 - Udmurt - NEW
DISCUSSION - Until 2003-03-21


The message below was sent on 2003-01-29.

The question was whether Votiak/votiak should be added as alternate names
for the language in English and French. One comment was received to the
effect that the term "Votiak" (with variant "Vokyak") is "not preferred"
by
the people themselves. I consider this a very strong argument indeed, and
the statement (from Michael Everson) has not been contradicted by others.

Formally the situation is the following: All questions have been approved,
except the French name (i.e. the English name has been approved as
"Udmurt"
only). Unless I hear arguments to the contrary until 2003-03-21, I shall
send out a second ballot for the French name only, asking again for yes/no
to "oudmourte" only. However, the question is equally valid for both
English
and French, and in case I hear arguments in favour of adding "votiak" in
French, we also need to have a second ballot for the English name.

Regards,
Håvard

* * * OLD MESSAGE (2003-01-29) * * *

The first ballot on this item has been completed. The original ballot form
is included below.

The ballot passed unanimously on all points except the French name.
The inclusion of the identifier "udm" has been approved; we just need a
new
round to determine the names.

The following comment was submitted relating to the French name:
" I suggest the French name "votiak" It is the name which appears on the
most well known French source about languages : "Les langues du Monde"
published by Société linguistique de Paris in 1952. In the book, "votiak"
appears as the French form for the language for which the indigenous name
is
"ud-murt". The French name for the people speaking these langue is
"Votiaks"
, these people live between Viatka and Kama. "

It should be noted that the Ethnologue also lists "Votiak" and "Votyak" as
alternate names (in English). The French name "oudmourte" is indeed found.
A
quick search with Google for French documents finds a few more documents
containing "oudmourte" than "votiak".

My suggestion would be to include English "Udmurt; Votiak" and French
"oudmourte; votiak". Comments?

Best regards,
Håvard Hjulstad

* * * * * *

ISO 639 Ballot -- New item: Udmurt

Please vote by Friday 2003-01-24.

Please see additional information below the ballot form.

Submitted by (your name, please):

(A) -- Inclusion:
(1)
___  I am in favour of including the individual language "Udmurt" in 639-2
(alpha-3 code)
___  I am opposed to including the individual language "Udmurt" in 639-2
(alpha-3 code)

(B) -- Identifier:
(Please vote even if you are opposed to the inclusion of the item)
(2)
___  I accept the alpha-3 identifier "udm" for Mordvin (if to be included)
___  I do not accept the identifier "udm" -- Comment:

(C) -- Language names:
(3)
___  I accept the English name "Udmurt" (if to be included)
___  I do not accept the English name "Udmurt" -- Comment:

(4)
___  I accept the French name "oudmourte" (if to be included)
___  I do not accept the French name "oudmourte" -- Comment:

(5)
___  I accept the indigenous name "udmurt kyl" (if to be included)
___  I do not accept the indigenous name "udmurt kyl" -- Comment:


Other comments:

* * * * * * *

Background and additional information:

This is based on a proposal submitted on 2002-10-11 and circulated to the
JAC for comments on 2002-10-30. Feedback has been received from Michael
Everson only.

The source of the French name is http://www.eurominority.org/.

The source of the indigenous name is http://www.evertype.com/alphabets/