I believe that H.Duane Goldman IS a chemist and holds a Doctorate in more than disks.

Rod Stephens
Family Theater Productions

[log in to unmask] wrote:
[log in to unmask]">
From: David Seubert <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 16:31:03 -0700
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Highly unorthodox cleaning methods for LP's...


First of all, I don't work for the Library of Congress so I wasn't aware of
any conflicts that you have with their preservation lab. Second, I wasn't
criticizing your products, only pointing out that all products, whether
made by a commercial company or developed in a conservation lab needs to be
evaluated by a chemist to ensure that they "do no harm." I welcome any
product that meets this standard that helps us do our jobs better.

And yes, I do wait for somebody else's approval on conservation treatments
for recordings because I am neither a chemist nor a conservator. I can't
tell a potential donor that we clean our discs with Ivory liquid. They
would understandably have a hard time taking our program very seriously if
I did.

David Seubert

At 05:13 PM 5/18/2004 -0500, you wrote:
Hi David,

Our ingredients, within proprietary constraints, are listed on the bottles.
After more than 20 years of evaluation & use most of you still question the
safety & thoroughness of a system that has cleaned 10s of 1000s of vinyl,
shellac, lacquer, acetate & Edison Diamond Disc recording & has received
wide positive review & most of you have never personally evaluated.  The
LOC solution is a "do no harm" solution incapable of thoroughly cleaning
phonograph recordings based upon chemistry not jive.  We provided, on
numerous occasions, full disclosure of our products & nothing but excuses
have prevailed.

Furthermore the LOC preservation unit has had multiple samples of these
materials for over 12 years & managed to loose them & never evaluate
them.  It's outrageous that they would now offer such an inferior solution
of their own concoction with little or no long term evaluation.  Somehow
chemistry doesn't matter.

No one can fault the safety of our formulation based upon the chemistry of
the solution with respect to the substrates being cleaned, at least not
anyone with a minor amount of appropriate background.  And the end result,
that is listening to the discs will make you acutely aware of the value of
such cleaning not to mention the total lack of negative remarks about
materials that have been in the international market since 1992.

Somehow none of this matters to most of you as you wait for someone else's
approval.  Hide behind whatever documents you wish but in the long run you
neither preserve recordings by leaving biological feed stocks in the groove
than you can appreciate the real quality of the recording by listening to
it in its original dirty condition.

As a group you're offended by the presence of a commercial enterprise but
with out our efforts how would you be any wiser.  In all candor, I'm
disgusted by the waste of time & effort spent in our efforts to preserve
recorded sound.  An effort that has kept me from cleaning much & listening
to much of my own collection for decades.  It's obvious that I've wasted my
time & efforts.

Many of you hear digital recordings as equals of the best that analog has
to offer.  BULL!!  If you can hear then you don't care but that's not the
measure of a reference point.

The LOC speaks & everyone follows, speak no evil, hear no evil!!  Shame on
you.  It's to bad most of you do not appreciate the one consistent feature
of the history of recorded sound - the sound didn't matter, only that there
was a new product to sell.

Happy listening as the bugs eat away at your prized collections.

Duane Goldman

PS   wait til you hear the results of thorough cleaning of lacquers prior
to plating for a realization that we've yet to hear all analog recording
has to offer.

At 01:25 PM 5/18/2004 -0700, you wrote:
I agree with Duane that we are beyond the use of household chemicals for
cleaning discs. Every time I see the topic of cleaning discs raised on
ARSClist, I am reminded that as archivists, when we clean discs, we are
performing conservation treatments, regardless of our training. According
to article VI of the "Code of Ethics of the American Institute for
Conservation of Historic and Artistic Works"

"The conservation professional must strive to select methods and materials
that, to the best of current knowledge, do not adversely affect cultural
property or its future examination, scientific investigation, treatment, or

We should abide by these principles, even (especially) if we aren't
conservators. I would argue that archivists have the same responsibility
not to use household chemicals without having them tested first. With all
due respect to collectors (who have rescued many recordings when the
archival profession wasn't paying attention) household dishwashing
detergent is not an acceptable way to clean recordings, especially when
there are other, better options. Dawn and Ivory liquid probably contain
harmless ingredients, but without assurances and testing, we shouldn't use

I can't speak for Duane's products, but any manufacturer that sells
products to the archival community should provide full disclosure on what
active and inactive ingredients are in the product and what testing has
been done to ensure that these products will "not adversely affect cultural

As I have pointed out on this list before, the Library of Congress has
created a recipe for a wonderful cleaning product that has been tested by
their conservation scientists: http://www.loc.gov/preserv/care/record.html.
Some archival supply firm should make this and sell it, since the main
ingredient is difficult to obtain in small quantities.

David Seubert

At 01:09 PM 5/18/2004 -0500, you wrote:
Hi Aaron,

We've come a long way from the limited cleaning & residues left by using
household detergents to clean phonograph records.  We invite you to hear
the difference safe & thorough cleaning affords.


Duane Goldman

At 10:22 AM 5/18/2004 -0400, you wrote:
I have been a collector for many years and have had some records
that I have encountered that are visually perfect and still with
cleanings, both manually and with a machine, the sound remains distorted
and gritty sounding. This conditions persists with every alcohol based
I have encountered.

I took a copy of a record which suffers from this disease, NRISSTB,(no
reason it should sound this bad) and I cleaned it with one tiny drop of
dishwashing soap. I made sure to add ample water to it and cleaned it
till no
visible residue was on the disc. I then cleaned the surface again with
a record cloth to remove any late arriving airborne residue. The results
have been really amazing. These records now sound infinitely better than
the ever did with alcohol based cleaners.

These dish products are designed to "cut grease" and as I understand it,
a thin layer of oil can exist on  LP's as a result of the stamping
itself. It is my belief that this oil coagulates with time and sits in
the grooves
attracting all kinds of contaminants and grit and particulate matter in

When the old lemon joy gets in there it seems to dissolve the oily
and in the process let go of a lot of tiny noisy particles that have
been resting
there for decades...I have done this in the presence of other
collectors who were
horrified and then amazed by the procedure and the results.

Obviously, I suggest trying this first on a valueless, noisy record to
see if what
I am saying is true.

Has anyone else out there tried weird counter-intuitive "solutions" to
record cleaning and if so what have been your results?

I am sure many ARSC people and all polymer chemists will tell me I am
doing more harm than good in the long run but the immediate results are
in some cases nothing less than dazzling in my experience.

BTW, this seems them most effective on records from the mid-60's and
earlier, did the vinyl manufacturing process change after a certain
point, thus using less oil or something like that when making LP's?


Aaron (Don't try this at home kids) Levinson
h. duane goldman, ph.d.   |   P.O. Box 37066   St. Louis, MO  63141
lagniappe chem. ltd.            |   (314) 205 1388 voice/fax
"for the sound you thought you bought"       |   http://discdoc.com
h. duane goldman, ph.d.   |   P.O. Box 37066   St. Louis, MO  63141
lagniappe chem. ltd.            |   (314) 205 1388 voice/fax
"for the sound you thought you bought"       |   http://discdoc.com