What has happened with this request?
We have started to receive faxes from a few institutions in Valencia
asking for their separate language code.
Do we have an official response yet? I will need to respond to these.
Rebecca
On Fri, 13 Apr 2007, Joan Spanne wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I think the determination should be made based on whether Valencian is a
> separate language according to the criteria set forth in the 639-3
> standard document:
>
> In this part of ISO 639, most identifiers are assumed to denote distinct
> individual languages. Furthermore, it is
> a goal for this part of ISO 639 to provide an identifier for every
> distinct human language that has been
> documented, whether living or extinct, and whether its primary modality is
> spoken, written or signed.
> There is no one definition of “language” that is agreed upon by all and
> appropriate for all purposes. As a result,
> there can be disagreement, even among speakers or linguistic experts, as
> to whether two varieties represent
> dialects of a single language or two distinct languages. For this part of
> ISO 639, judgements regarding when
> two varieties are considered to be the same or different languages are
> based on a number of factors,
> including linguistic similarity, intelligibility, a common literature, the
> views of speakers concerning the
> relationship between language and identity, and other factors. The
> following basic criteria are followed.
>
> - Two related varieties are normally considered varieties of the same
> language if speakers of each variety
> have inherent understanding of the other variety (that is, can understand
> based on knowledge of their
> own variety without needing to learn the other variety) at a functional
> level.
>
> - Where spoken intelligibility between varieties is marginal, the
> existence of a common literature or of a
> common ethnolinguistic identity with a central variety that both
> understand can be strong indicators that
> they should nevertheless be considered varieties of the same language.
>
> - Where there is enough intelligibility between varieties to enable
> communication, the existence of wellestablished,
> distinct ethnolinguistic identities can be a strong indicator that they
> should nevertheless be
> considered to be different languages.
>
> Some of the distinctions made on this basis may not be considered
> appropriate by some users or for certain
> applications. These basic criteria are thought to best fit the intended
> range of applications, however (see 4.6).
>
> If the determination is made that Valencian should have its own code
> element, then we wrestle with what to do with Catalan.
>
> I have drafted a "comment" on the request as made by the submitters, which
> I propose to use to "preface" the change request as it would be posted on
> the website for review. I am attaching that comment as a Word document. I
> expect to post the change request with this comment early next week. In
> effect, I would like to see the proposal run its course, still reserving
> the final determination of the outcome for the JAC to make, a position
> made clear in the comment document.
>
> -Joan
>
>
>
>
>
> Milicent K Wewerka <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent by: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
> 04/05/2007 06:55 AM
> Please respond to
> ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
> To
> [log in to unmask]
> cc
>
> Subject
> Re: Valencian -- it is not going away PLEASE RESPOND
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I think we need to consider whether a separate ISO639 ID is useful or
> not. If someone is looking for Web sites, books, or whatever in Catalan
> because that's the language they can read, do they want Valencian
> included? If someone considers that they speak "Valencian" will they
> want the "Catalan" materials included?
>
> Milicent Wewerka
> Library of Congress
>
> >>> Peter Constable <[log in to unmask]> 04/04/07 9:16 PM >>>
> It is certainly possible to register additional subtags for language
> variants using the IETF process. The main considerations are
>
> - Is it making a distinction that's useful to more than an isolated
> handful of users?
> - Should this be treated like a distinct language with an ID in ISO
> 639?
> - As a sub-language variant, is it making the appropriate distinction?
>
> If someone contended that there is some need to tag content/resources
> to distinguish "Leonese" from other Asturian varieties, then registering
> a subtag allowing for
>
> ast-leonese
>
> would certainly be a possibility that could be evaluated.
>
>
>
> Peter
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf Of
> > [log in to unmask]
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 10:37 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Valencian -- it is not going away PLEASE RESPOND
> >
> > Question:
> > can something similar be said of Leonese and other language
> communities in Spain
> > (and which ones) not yet included in 639?:
> > *ca-valencia* denotes *Variety spoken in the "Comunidad
> Valenciana" region of Spain,
> > where it is co-official with Spanish.*
> > rgds
> > Christian
> >
> > --
> > Dr. Christian Galinski, Director
> > Infoterm - International Information Centre for Termninology
> > Mariahilfer Strasse 123/3, 1060 Vienna, Austria
> > TEL +43-664-3446181 - FAX +43-1-524 0606-99
> > http://www.infoterm.info - [log in to unmask]
> > _______________________________________
> > Founded in 1971 by UNESCO to promote and organize
> > co-operation in the field of terminology worldwide
> >
> >
> > ---- Joan Spanne <[log in to unmask]> schrieb:
> > > I agree with the set of actions to propose, if the request is
> accepted to
> > > stand for review.
> > >
> > > We have the identical issue with Leonese and Asturian. I think I
> copied
> > > this group on my earlier exchange with the submitters of a request
> for a
> > > code element for Leonese (which is as much connected with
> > > Mirandese/Miranda do Duro as with Asturian, and Mirandese has its
> own code
> > > element.)
> > >
> > > I will be on vacation starting tomorrow for a week (4-11). I will
> have to
> > > respond to these requesters before I leave today. If I allow this
> > > Valencian request, I think I also must contact the Leonese
> requesters and
> > > allow their request to stand as well.
> > >
> > > Will the JAC make a decision on this (whether or not to allow the
> requests
> > > to stand for public review) by April 11?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Joan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Peter Constable <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent by: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
> > > 04/03/2007 09:09 AM
> > > Please respond to
> > > ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
> > >
> > >
> > > To
> > > [log in to unmask]
> > > cc
> > >
> > > Subject
> > > Re: Valencian -- it is not going away PLEASE RESPOND
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I don*t know at what point we go along with a *Balkan* factor
> of saying a
> > > language is distinct because there is a strong connection and
> association
> > > with an ethnic distinction. I*d be curious to know to what extent
> Catalans
> > > and Valencians are willing to invest in distinct language
> resources.
> > >
> > > If we were to accept their request, then I think the actions would
> be:
> > >
> > > - Change scope of ca / cat from individual language to
> > > macrolangage
> > > - Change reference name of ca / cat to
> *Catalan-Valencian* or
> > > *Catalan (macrolangage)* or something along that line
> > > - Add new ID for Valencian
> > > - Add new ID for Catalan (individual language, excluding
> > > Valencian)
> > >
> > > We cannot, by the rules of 639-3, simply add an ID for Valencian
> and say
> > > that ca /cat no longer encompasses Valencian.
> > >
> > > As Michael has indicated, there is an IANA-registered subtag for
> Valencian
> > > that can be used to distinguish that variety in IETF language tags;
> hence
> > > *ca-valencia* denotes *Variety spoken in the "Comunidad
> Valenciana" region
> > > of Spain, where it is co-official with Spanish.*
> > >
> > >
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
> Of
> > > [log in to unmask]
> > > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:32 AM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Cc: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee
> > > Subject: Valencian -- it is not going away PLEASE RESPOND
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello All,
> > >
> > > On Friday (the closing day for submitting change requests for the
> first
> > > ISO 639-3 review period) I received a lengthy pair of forms
> regarding
> > > Valencian--again.
> > >
> > > I have turned them into PDF documents for ease of viewing, but they
> are
> > > otherwise identical to what the requesters sent in. (Their
> strategy
> > > apparently is to overwhelm and wear down by sheer volume, and
> today, with
> > > me, it would succeed.)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I owe them a response, whether accepting their request for
> consideration,
> > > or rejecting it with a reason for rejection. (Peter suggested a
> standard
> > > response letter might be needed in this case.)
> > >
> > > I think my memo of 22 November 2006 might not have made it to you
> (it
> > > certainly got no response). In case not, I am including it here, as
> well
> > > as Rebecca's and Peter's message of 19 October, and the request
> forwarded
> > > by Christian that let to it (beginning half way down).
> > >
> > > I am sorely tempted to let this run through the process and permit
> the
> > > world to comment on it! (I am not doing this, yet.) Otherwise SIL,
> and
> > > ISO, and the JAC will continue to look like the bad guys for
> persisting in
> > > denying their request. It is not only a Part 3 problem, it is a
> > > JAC-all-parts problem, so I strongly request your responses.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Joan
> > >
> > > Joan Spanne
> > > ISO 639-3/RA
> > > SIL International
> > > 7500 W Camp Wisdom Rd
> > > Dallas, TX 75236
> > > [log in to unmask]
> > >
> > > __________________
> > >
> > > Hello All,
> > >
> > > I am forwarding this to the JAC voting list to give you notice that
> the
> > > Valencian - Catalan discussion is not over yet. I anticipate a
> change
> > > proposal will be made by Bernardo Arlandis Maño. Given the extent
> of prior
> > > discussion on this list regarding the matter, I thought it
> appropriate to
> > > forward to you his comments on the case for Valencian as distinct
> from
> > > "Catalan of Valencia" and my reply. If my reply does not accurately
> state
> > > the situation regarding the use and meaning of the code element
> [cat],
> > > please enlighten me.
> > >
> > > -Joan
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Forwarded by Joan Spanne/IntlAdmin/WCT on 11/22/2006 11:08 AM
> -----
> > >
> > > ISO639-3/IntlAdmin/WCT
> > > Sent by: Joan Spanne
> > > 11/22/2006 11:08 AM
> > >
> > >
> > > To
> > > Bernardo Arlandis Mañó <[log in to unmask]>
> > > cc
> > >
> > > Subject
> > > Re: Some questions
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Bernardo,
> > >
> > > We are still awaiting the announcement that ISO/FDIS 639-3 has
> achieved
> > > adopted status, but we hope that the announcement will be very
> soon, as
> > > the final ISO member vote has closed. After that announcement, I
> think we
> > > will allow one additional month for submitting change requests for
> this
> > > first round of review, since it is already much later than we had
> hoped
> > > for achieving adopted status. So I expect we will set the final
> date for
> > > submitting change requests at 31 December (effectively 29
> December), 2006,
> > > so that the three month public review process can begin on 1
> January and
> > > end on 31 March, 2007.
> > >
> > > With regard to the decision between recommending a split of [cat]
> into two
> > > code elements, or a name change for [cat] and a new code element
> for
> > > Valencian, I think I understand your position that Valencian is and
> always
> > > has been distinct from Catalan. However, I think that the the
> reality of
> > > the use of the code element [cat] has been that it has included
> Valencian
> > > proper (by that I mean the language Valencian that you are
> proposing to
> > > add), not only "Catalan of Valencia." Therefore, I believe a split
> of the
> > > [cat] code element must be considered the proper recommendation.
> However,
> > > I would include in your rationale statement some discussion about
> the
> > > second possible alternative. I anticipate that this proposal will
> generate
> > > a lot of discussion, so thoroughness in your statement, including
> this
> > > alternative analysis of the actual use versus the intended meaning
> of the
> > > code element [cat] may strengthen your proposal.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Joan Spanne
> > > ISO 639-3/RA
> > > SIL International
> > > 7500 W Camp Wisdom Rd
> > > Dallas, TX 75236
> > > [log in to unmask]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bernardo Arlandis Mañó <[log in to unmask]>
> > > 11/21/2006 03:47 PM
> > >
> > >
> > > To
> > > [log in to unmask]
> > > cc
> > >
> > > Subject
> > > Some questions
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Joan:
> > >
> > > As we're in the process of preparing our request for ISO639-3, we'd
> like
> > > to know what's the maximum date for sending the forms fulfilled.
> > >
> > > Also, we are in doubt about calling for a split (case 3 in the
> form) of
> > > "catalan;balearic;valencian" into "catalan;balearic" and
> "valencian", or
> > > requesting a name/scope change (case 1) for
> "catalan;balearic;valencian".
> > >
> > > The language we're going to request a new code for is older than
> > > catalan, and has always been known as "valencian", but this name
> has
> > > been mistakenly assigned to the "cat" code. If they wanted to
> allude to
> > > the catalan used in Valencia they should have used a name like
> "catalan
> > > of Valencia". So valencian is not a new language emerging from
> catalan,
> > > we just want to retrieve the name because is the more appropiate
> one and
> > > will help clearing confussion.
> > >
> > > Knowing this, in addition to requesting the new code, do you think
> a
> > > split request is more appropiate than a simple modification to the
> "cat"
> > > code?
> > >
> > > Thanks. Sincerely,
> > >
> > > --
> > > Bernardo Arlandis Mañó
> > >
> > > {{ Bachelor of Computer Science }}
> > > {{ Valencia - Spain }}
> > > {{ http://softwarevalencia.com }}
> > >
> > >
> > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > > "Rebecca S. Guenther" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent by: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
> > > 10/19/2006 09:08 AM
> > >
> > > Please respond to
> > > ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>
> > >
> > >
> > > I REALLY need to get back to the people who sent me the large
> packet of
> > > books, articles, etc. trying to make the case for Valencian.
> Milicent and
> > > I looked at it, and she also concluded that it should not be
> > > accepted. Havard, will you write such a statement, or were you
> looking to
> > > us to do it? I do need to take care of this as soon as possible. A
> form
> > > letter would be good-- I have no email for the person who sent me
> the
> > > items and I also am still getting requests for the language
> periodically.
> > >
> > > Rebecca
> > >
> > > On Wed, 18 Oct 2006, Peter Constable wrote:
> > >
> > > > Perhaps it's time for an FAQ with an article discussing Valencian
> and
> > > > the reasons why it has not been accepted for coding as a
> distinct
> > > > language. Either that or Havard might want to keep a form letter
> on
> > > > hand to send out every time someone new comes along making the
> same
> > > > request. :-)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Peter
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf
> > > Of Christian Galinski
> > > > Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 3:59 AM
> > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > Subject: FW: The neccesity of Valencian locale in ISO 639
> > > >
> > > > FYI
> > > > Best regards
> > > > Christian
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > Dr. Christian Galinski, Director
> > > > Infoterm - International Information Centre for Terminology
> Mariahilfer
> > > Strasse 123/3, A-1060 Vienna, Austria
> > > > T: +43-664-344 6181
> > > > [log in to unmask] - http://www.infoterm.info
> > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > Founded in 1971 by UNESCO to promote and organize co-operation in
> the
> > > field of terminology worldwide
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > > THIS E-MAIL HAS BEEN SCANNED FOR ALL KNOWN VIRUSES
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Mavorte [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 10:53 AM
> > > > To: Infopoint
> > > > Subject: The neccesity of Valencian locale in ISO 639
> > > >
> > > > I want to coment the registration of a language, and I try to
> explain as
> > > well as I can my historical, linguistic and technical reasons:
> > > >
> > > > The language are Valencian, in Valencian Comunity (Spain). It's
> a
> > > language which was born from an ancient catalan carried on in the
> Spanish
> > > Reconquest to Valencia which have influences of arab, mozarab,
> aragonese
> > > and castilian (spanish). Valencian was born in Valencia city and
> then this
> > > language was extended for all the ancient Kingdom of Valencia,
> nowadays
> > > Valencian Comunity in Spain. There are differencies between catalan
> and
> > > valencian I show you after a brief history of the valencian
> language:
> > > > 1238: Conquest of Jaume I
> > > > 1283: The book of Ramon Llull "Blanquerna" write in the title and
> back
> > > page of a traslation to valencian: "Book of prayers to the
> understanding
> > > of God compound by the iluminated doctor and martyr the master
> Ramon
> > > Llull.
> > > > Translated and corrected from the originals in valencian
> language"
> > > >
> > > > 1489: Joan Esteve write the first diccionary latin/valencian
> "Liber
> > > > Elegantiorum": "escrit en latin et valentiana lingua exactissima
> > > diligentia emmendatus" : "write in latin and valencian language..."
> (I
> > > don't know latin very well :) )
> > > >
> > > > 1.490, Joanot Martorell "Tirant lo Blanch" "me atreuire expondre:
> no
> > > solament de lengua anglesa en portuguesa. Mas encara de portoguesa
> en
> > > vulgar
> > > > valenciana: per ço que la nacio don yo soc natural se puxa
> alegrar e
> > > molt aiudar per los tats e ta malignes actes coz hi son." (I
> expose: not
> > > only from english to potuguese language, and from portuguese to
> vulgar
> > > valencian:
> > > > because it is from I'm...)
> > > >
> > > > 1764: Carles Ros: "Diccionary Valencian Castilian (spanish)" and
> "Tratat
> > > de adages y refranys valencians y practica pera escriure ab
> perfecciò la
> > > lengua valenciana (valencian language)"
> > > >
> > > > 1878: Lo Rat Penat is a organization which collected the
> valencian
> > > spelling
> > > >
> > > > 1894: Jose Nebot i Perez "Apuntes para una gramatica valenciana
> popular
> > > (Notes for a valencian popular grammar"
> > > >
> > > > 20th january 1915: Creation of RACV (Royal Academy of Valencian
> > > Culture), his web is in valencian: http://www.racv.es
> > > >
> > > > 1918: Bernat Ortin Benedito "Valencian Grammar"
> > > >
> > > > 21st december 1932: Basis of Castellón, the first official rules
> to
> > > Valencian
> > > >
> > > > 1933: Luis Fullana i Mira, who signed the Basis of Castellón,
> regreted
> > > and re-edit the valencian rules
> > > >
> > > > 1979: RACV (which signed the Basis of Castellón) wrote a spelling
> seemed
> > > to the spelling of Luis Fullana i Mira
> > > >
> > > > 7th mars 1983: Rules of El Puig signed by the RACV
> > > > 1983 (same year): The valencian government started to use the
> Basis of
> > > Castellon
> > > >
> > > > 23rd july 2001: Creation of AVL (Academy of Valencian Language)
> created
> > > by the valencian government, his web in valencian is
> > > http://www.avl.gva.es/
> > > >
> > > > Well, I tried to explain the history as sort as I can, well go on
> with
> > > the linguisitics reasons:
> > > > 1. There are many different words, I enclose to this email an
> example in
> > > order you can check some of the differences (file: "tabla
> > > > catalan-valenciano.txt")
> > > > 2. The participle of verb "to be" in valencian is "sigut" and
> not
> > > "estat"
> > > > like catalan
> > > > 3. The infinitve of all verbs catalans ended in "-tenir", in
> valencian
> > > is "-tindre"
> > > > 4. The infinitive and conjugation of all verbs ended in "-posar"
> in
> > > catalan is ended in "-pondre" in valencian, I enclose a file of
> the
> > > differences in the conjugation of the verb "defendre", "defensar"
> in
> > > catalan (file: "verb defendre in valencian.txt") 5. The catalan
> verbal
> > > interfix "eix" is "ix" in valencian 6. In the plurals of names, the
> called
> > > "etymological n" appear whereas in catalan not 7. The desnence
> verbal of
> > > verbs ended in "-ar" is "-o" in catalan and "-e"
> > > > in valencian
> > > > I don't remember more diferencies now, but obviously exist
> grammar
> > > differences between catalan and valencian, are similar languages
> but not
> > > the same, and the valencian it's regulated by own academies. In
> fact, the
> > > European Constitution was translated to valencian, apart of in
> catalan and
> > > in the rest of regional languages of Spain.
> > > >
> > > > The technical reason is that we need a locale ISO for valencian,
> I
> > > enclose a file (in English) to the "Project LliureX" (a program
> based on
> > > Linux) which they have to "invent" the locale "valencia_ES" (file:
> > > "FWV2004CDD-STO.pdf").
> > > > The another alternative to try to be seemed to this ISO rules is
> > > "[email protected]" used in Operative Systems like Debian and Ubuntu.
> I
> > > propose create (following your rules) the locale "va_ES" to end
> with this
> > > situation of chaos (In English "Valencian", in french "Valencien"
> and in
> > > valencian "Valencià").
> > > >
> > > > I write you because I'm a person (among very other persons) who
> need an
> > > ISO locale for valencian, and I don't know how to do it.
> Furthermore the
> > > co-official language in Valencian Comunity is valencian and no
> catalan
> > > (said by the Statute of Autonomy of Valencian Comunity, article 6),
> i
> > > enclose a table about an study of the spanish government (done by
> CIS)
> > > about the use of the different languages in our country (I
> translate into
> > > English:
> > > > "Languages in Spain.doc"), extracted from this web in spanish:
> > > > http://www.gees.org/articulo/1006/ : it says 39% of the
> population use
> > > valencian as a maternal language and 1% use catalan in Valencian
> Comunity
> > > >
> > > > Thank you in advance for your attention and I'm looking forward
> for you
> > > response
> > > >
> > > > PD: You can have doubts because some people say it's a dialect
> of
> > > catalan and others say it's an own language, but the fact is
> valencian
> > > have differences from catalan, and is a co-official language in
> Valencian
> > > Comunity (Spain) and we need a locale ISO. Contact me whatever you
> want.
> > > >
> > >
>
>
>
