Hello JAC,

As simple as this one seemed to be, we did have an issue here that slipped between the cracks.

On 2007-3-14, we actually =removed= Provençal as a name associated with [oci]. At least, I removed it from the ISO 639-3 documentation (and entered a change record), based on the exchanges of emails from March 2007 that I have appended below (following the more recent thread that started with Patrick Sauzet's email from 28 February 2008, which actually did not mention changes to the names for [oci] at all). The older thread follows the double line of ++++; I took out unrelated discussions on other languages.

I should have noticed this before, but did not. Bottom line: is Provençal included (with date note) as a name for [oci] or is it not?? I think not.

-Joan




Håvard  Hjulstad <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>

2008-06-21 11:17 AM
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ISO 639 name changes - pro & oci





Dear JAC members,
 
There seems to be no objections to the changes mentioned in the attachment. We therefore will process without ballot:
 
Current encoding:
 
ISO 639-2: pro = Old Provençal (to 1500) = provençal ancien (jusqu'à 1500) (indentifier / English / French).
 
ISO 639-3: see http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=pro and http://linguistlist.org/forms/langs/LLDescription.cfm?code=pro.
 
&
 
ISO 639-2 & -1: oci / oc = Occitan; Provençal (post 1500) = occitan; provençal (après 1500).
 
ISO 639-3: http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=oci.
 
New encoding:
 
pro = Old Provençal (to 1500); Old Occitan (to 1500) = provençal ancien (jusqu'à 1500); occitan ancien (jusqu'à 1500).
 
oci / oc  = Occitan (post 1500); Provençal (post 1500) = occitan (après 1500); provençal (après 1500).
 
I hope that I have understood this correctly.
 
It should be noted that the "notes" (to 1500), (post 1500) etc., aren't actually parts of the names. However, in the current data structure these notes are recorded together with the names. We should bear this in mind when revising the data structure for the revised "ISO 639 as database" under the procedures of Annex ST to the ISO/IEC Directives.
 
Best regards,
Håvard
 
--------------------
Håvard Hjulstad
  Standard Norge / Standards Norway
 Postboks 242, NO-1326 Lysaker
 besøksadresse / visiting address: Strandveien 18

  tel: (+47) 67838600  |  faks / fax: (+47) 67838601
  direkte tel / direct tel: (+47) 67838645
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--------------------
 
----- Message from "Rebecca S. Guenther" <[log in to unmask]> on Mon, 9 Jun 2008 23:33:36 +0200 -----
To:
<[log in to unmask]>
Subject:
ISO 639-2 Language Code Change Request (fwd)

I should have processed this one long ago. I don't believe that there will
be any controversy about adding "Occitan, Old (to 1500)" as an alternate
name to "pro" as suggested below. I also see that we need to add (post
1500) to the language name Provencal for "oci".
(Note that I realize that I've omitted a diacritic-- I have limitations in
this text-based email system).

We would not of course change the codes themselves.

So unless I hear some objection I will revise as above.

Rebecca

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 13:34:13 -0500
From: NDMSO <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask]
Subject: ISO 639-2 Language Code Change Request


ISO 639-2 Language Code Change Request.

English name of Language:   Provençal, Old (to 1500)
French name of Language:   provençal ancien (jusqu\'à 1500)
iso_639_2_b:   pro
iso_639_2_t:  
change_requested:   It is a great improvement hat ISO 639 now presents again one code for Occitan, whith a traditional and legitimate split between Old Occitan (to 1500) and (Modern) Occitan (post 1500). Three years ago, I have been arguing at some length in favour of such a move (or return), and I appreciate deeply that it is realized now.
It is probably not an ideal solution to present two heterogeous designations, viz \"pro\" and \"oci\" respectively, for the two the stages of the language (medieval and modern). If a more coherent solution based on two codes begining with \"oc-\" could be found, it would surely represent an positive step.
More importantly, and it is the point I want to emphasize in this message, it would be an important contribution to the clarity of the ISO nomenclature, if the language refered to as \"pro\" was not only given the traditional (but largely obsolete) name \"Provençal, Old\", but also the more generally received name \"Occitan, Old (to 1500)\". This would help establish a clear link between \"pro\" and \"oci\" and manifest these codes are designations of two successive stages of one and the same language.

Submitter's name:   Patrick Sauzet
Submitter's email :   [log in to unmask]
Submitter's status :   Professor of Occitan linguistics
Department of Modern Letters, Theater & Occitan
University of Toulouse 2 Le Mirail
5, allée Antonio Machado
31058 Toulouse cedex

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"Rebecca S. Guenther" <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee <[log in to unmask]>

2007-03-14 12:30 PM
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Re: action on items





Sorry, I started to write this message the other day and got distracted.

We are okay with these (also with the proposal for classical Syriac) We
are doing a new edition of the MARC language code list, which will reflect
these changes..

Rebecca


On Wed, 14 Mar 2007, Peter Constable wrote:

> I still haven’t heard any response from Rebecca or Joan on these. Now
> we also have a new set of actions wrt Aramaic – clearly Joan is on
> board, but I don’t know if others are. We need to bring these issues
> to closure, please.
>
> Peter
>
> ________________________________
> From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Constable
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 3:17 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: action on items
>
> In that case, do Rebecca and Joan have a clear understanding of action items?
>
...
>
> Occitan:
> - ISO 639-3: The IDs auv, gsc, lms, lnc and prv will remain defined with their current meanings, but these will be deprecated, they will be documented as having been merged into oci, and users will be advised to use that ID. Change the scope of oci from M to I.
>
> - Both 639-2 and 639-3: Change names for oci from “Occitan (post 1500); Provençal” to “Occitan (post 1500)”. Change names for pro from “Old Provençal (to 1500)” to “Old Occitan (to 1500)” (or, inverted: “Occitan, Old (to 1500)”).

>
...
> Peter
>
> ________________________________
> From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Håvard Hjulstad
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 12:32 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: action on items
>
> I think you are now hearing a unanimous "No objection to the recommendations"!
>
> Håvard
>
> --------------------
> Håvard Hjulstad
>   Standard Norge / Standards Norway
>   [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> --------------------
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Constable
> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 7:14 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: action on items
> It’s been a week since I wrote asking for progress. Only Joan and Milicent have commented on the mail I sent. If you don’t have any comments and no objections, then a simple “No objection to the recommendations” would allow us to make progress.
>
>
> Thanks
> Peter
>
>