Print

Print


Greg,

Many thanks for your joke and reply.

My question is a half joke; I wanted at the same time to bring attention
to the LCRI that I quoted in my earlier email.

Zehua

> Zehua--
>   Not to go forever with this -- but it's a joke -- my feeble attempt at
> pidgin "academic" style Spanish --
> "The Greek and Roman City of Ancient Times" -- so you can see, in this
> case,
> it's El Greco the masculine adjective (not the painter, nor the place).
> -- Greg    Hmmmm -- duh -- I just saw the winking smiley -- so your
> question
> was a joke, too.   (-:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
> Behalf
> Of lbsun
> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 9:36 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] El Greco - to file on "El" or not in titles
>
>
> Is this El Greco the painter or the place? ;-)
> Zehua
>
>
> Greg Smith wrote:
>> And what about:
>> El Greco y el ciudad Romano del tiempo antico
>> ???
>> [sorry--I couldn't resist a little cataloging humor at the end of a
>> hot summer's week]
>> --Greg
>>
>>     -----Original Message-----
>>     *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging
>>     [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *lbsun
>>     *Sent:* Wednesday, July 30, 2008 10:45 PM
>>     *To:* [log in to unmask]
>>     *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] El Greco - to file on "El" or not in
>> titles
>>
>>     It seems the 2nd indicator in this case should be "0" according to
>>     LCRI 21.30J and LCRI 22.4:
>>
>>         LCRI 21.30J:
>>         Retain initial articles and record an appropriate value in the
>>         non-filing indicator (indicator position 2). Use value "0"
>>         when an article is to be filed on as follows:
>>            a) the title begins with an article that appears as part of
>>         a personal, geographic, or corporate name and is retained in
>>         such a name according to LCRI 22.4, LCRI 23.2, or AACR2 rule
>>         24.5A;
>>
>>         LCRI 22.4:
>>         If the language is not Arabic, Hebrew, Yiddish, or Urdu,
>>         retain initial articles at the beginning of the entry element.
>>
>>     I am wondering why the article "El" was not retained in the
>>     heading when it was established.  Was there any particular reason?
>>
>>     Sun Zehua
>>     Principal Cataloger
>>     Hong Kong University of Science and Technology Library
>>
>>     Adam L. Schiff wrote:
>>>     I've found a mix of practice in both OCLC and our local catalog
>>>     as to whether the initial article "El" in "El Greco" should be
>>>     skipped when it is at the start of a title, such as:
>>>
>>>     El Greco and his school
>>>     El Greco in the collection of the Hispanic Society of America
>>>     El Greco revisited
>>>     El Greco in Italy and Italian art
>>>     El Greco to Goya
>>>     El Greco y el arte de su tiempo
>>>     El Greco kommentiert den Wettstreit der Kunste
>>>
>>>     So what do you all think?  Should the second indicator in field
>>>     245 for these titles be 0 or 3?  Is there a definitive answer
>>>     that we could arrive at?  For the record, the personal name
>>>     heading is established as:
>>>     Greco, $d 1541?-1614.
>>>
>>>     I've seen similar discrepancies with titles beginning with Le
>>>     Corbusier, but the predominant coding of the second indicator is
>>>     0.  In this case, his heading is established as Le Corbusier,
>>>     1887-1965, so it seems clear that the initial article in the name
>>>     is not to be ignored.
>>>
>>>     Le Corbusier et l'architecture sacree
>>>     Le Corbusier secret
>>>     Le Corbusier and the concept of self
>>>
>>>     Thanks,
>>>
>>>     Adam
>>>
>>>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>     Adam L. Schiff
>>>     Principal Cataloger
>>>     University of Washington Libraries
>>>     Box 352900
>>>     Seattle, WA 98195-2900
>>>     (206) 543-8409
>>>     (206) 685-8782 fax
>>>     [log in to unmask]
>>>     http://faculty.washington.edu/~aschiff
>>>     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~