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Very interesting. I never read Richard Gradone's paper. Obviously  
there is some good research material to be had there.

It would be great to get the entire background on the catalogs.

--Scott

Scott D. Smith
Chicago Audio Works, Inc.

Quoting Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>:

> ABC actually owned the label even before it was badged Command.
> ABC/Paramount bought a controlling interest in Grand Award in the 50's,
> but Enoch Light maintained creative control of the label. Command was
> launched to set the new Percussion records apart from the previous
> Grand Award brand. The classical recordings came after Command had been
> very successful in the early "stereo spectacular" business.  Persuasive
> Percussion was one of the most successful pop records of the 60's (see
> Billboard charts, etc).  There were several other titles that sold many
> hundreds of thousands of copies.  All of this provided a lucrative base
> from which to try a deluxe and expensive way of making classical
> recordings.  All of this is paraphrased from interviews as told to
> Richard Gradone by Enoch Light. In the mid-60's, Enoch Light decided to
> split away and start his own label where he was in complete control,
> Project 3. His business partner, interestingly, was Singer sewing
> machine company! The early Project 3 stuff was recorded at Fine
> Recording but by the late 60's, the recordings were mostly made at A&R.
>  Project 3 was a very early Quad label. It will be interesting to see
> what titles get reissued. That stuff was pretty "Mod Squad" but a lot
> of fun with very clever arrangements. More electric than earlier
> Command, and some more extreme gimmicks, like booking every studio
> trombone player in NY to make an album with Urbie Green, etc.
>
> -- Tom Fine
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott D. Smith" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Project 3 masters
>
>
> Tom,
>
> Very interesting. I thought that ABC had dumped the idea of recording
> on 35mm after they bought the label from Enoch Light. Thanks for the
> clarification.
>
> --Scott
>
>
>
> Quoting Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>:
>
>> Hi Mark:
>>
>> All your posts are good news. Good luck with all your reissue efforts.
>>
>> So, are those UK reissues made from copies and safeties or worse? Some
>> label that was distributed at least for awhile by Universal had out
>> some of the Everest Woody Herman titles on CD, made from really bad LP
>> transfers. My old quarter-tracks sound better!
>>
>> The authorized Everest transfers, done by Classic, sound very good for
>> those on the list interested in this corner of music-recording history.
>> Bernie Grundman did a first-class mastering job. I prefer the 3-channel
>> high-resolution DVD-audio versions, but the vinyl reissues sound better
>> than the originals. That's great that more titles are coming.
>>
>> Just to clear up one misconception on a related thread. Command
>> Classics did continue to record some albums on film after Enoch Light
>> left ABC/Command to start Project 3. The last Command Classics session
>> done on 35mm was in Pittsburgh in 1967. Interestingly, the main
>> engineer on that session, Ted Gossman, was an Everest veteran who had
>> made some of the Everest 35mm recordings nearly a decade earlier.
>>
>> -- Tom Fine
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Jenkins" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:28 PM
>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Project 3 masters
>>
>>
>> Scott/Tom,
>>
>> We actually represent the current owners of the Project 3 catalogue, SPJ
>> Music, for licensing.  We have not exploited this particular catalogue
>> as of yet (as our initial interest was in the Vox catalogue, which is
>> also owned by them).  I'm in the process of getting a list of the type
>> of masters in the archive still extant (multi-channel, 35mm, quad,
>> etc.).  Presently, the masters for these are in storage in
>> Massacheusetts.  I do not, as of yet, have a good handle on the
>> condition of these, but will update you when known.
>>
>>
>> Mark Jenkins
>> President, Licensing Division
>> Madacy Entertainment LP/Countdown Media
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott D. Smith
>> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 5:54 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] 35mm magnetic film as a music-master recording
>> method
>>
>> Tom,
>>
>> To the best of my knowledge, Command stopped using 35mm as a recording
>> medium after Enoch Light sold the label to ABC Records in 1965. ABC then
>>
>> sold it to MCA, who promptly relegated it to the trash heap of
>> re-issues. A sad story...
>>
>> Richard Gradone did a doctoral dissertation on the career of Enoch Light
>>
>> and his record labels while at NYU in 1980. I have never read it, so I
>> don't know if it might contain any pertinent information or not.
>>
>> I have only a few Project 3 original releases. I know that "Patterns in
>> Sound" series was done on 35mm, but after that, I'm really not sure.
>> There is also the entire catalog of Project 3 quad releases, which I
>> assume were probably done on 4 track tape, but could have been recorded
>> on 35mm 4 track mag as well.
>>
>> In general, the recordings that Enoch Light did under the Command label
>> were considered by many to be both artistically and technically superior
>>
>> to the Project 3 releases, which had arrangements which were tended to
>> be less interesting than those that were done under the Command label.
>> In general, they didn't sell as well as the Command releases did.
>>
>> I have no idea what Essex is doing with the current catalog, or even
>> where the masters are. My guess is that they are probably in about the
>> same condition as the Everest masters.
>>
>> The only other possible release I can think of might be the 1957
>> (Stokowski) version of "Fantasia", release by Walt Disney under the
>> Buena Vista label. Sadly, the original 1939 recording has been lost to
>> time, having been recorded on 35mm nitrate film, and later transferred
>> to 3 track magnetic film over a jury-rigged class A phone line
>> arrangement in 1955. Despite this, Terry Porter managed to clean it up
>> fairly well for the 1980 re-release.
>>
>> There were also a number of other movie soundtracks which were done on
>> 35mm mag for film release, some which ran simultaneous session tapes. I
>> know a few scoring mixers who worked in Hollywood during the early
>> seventies. They have told me that practices varied from session to
>> session. Some would run tape and film, others were done only on film
>> (usually four track or six track), and later mixed to a 2 track tape
>> master for album release. Since liner notes seldom contained these
>> details, they are probably lost to time. Nearly every mixer I've spoken
>> to has preferred the quality of the mag film masters over those done on
>> tape. This is probably primarily due to the faster speed of the film
>> (equivalent to 18 IPS), thicker oxide formulations, and wider track
>> configuration (150 mil for 3 track, 100 mil for 6 track).
>>
>> Nearly all the mag film that I have worked with from the mid-1950's
>> through the late 60's has suffered from some degree of VS, some much
>> more so than others. Even film that has been stored in decent vault
>> conditions has suffered, primarily due to the fact that most of it has
>> been stored in sealed film cans, which doesn't allow for venting of the
>> film. Most of the films also suffer from various degrees of base warp,
>> which makes for a difficult situation when it comes to maintaining
>> film-to-head contact.
>>
>> Scott D. Smith
>> *Chicago Audio Works, Inc.*
>>
>> Tom Fine wrote:
>>> Hi All:
>>>
>>> I'm cookin' up some research here and I figured I throw a few
>>> questions out to the group. The topic: the use of 35mm mag-film as the
>>
>>> main recording medium for music albums.
>>>
>>> 1. As far as I can tell, before Everest Records started using 35mm to
>>> do classical music recording sessions, the only prior use of 35mm as
>>> an album-recording or album-mastering medium was a few cases of
>>> film-soundtrack albums where the LP master was cut right from the 35mm
>>
>>> soundtrack magnetic master. I think RCA issued a few of these early in
>>
>>> the LP era but I'm not positive those were from 35mm magnetic masters
>>> (they might have been from optical masters from pre-magnetic film
>>> days). Any specific pre-Everest titles would be most appreciated.
>>> Everest's use of mag-film was circa 1959-60.
>>>
>>> 2. The mag-film trend was short-lived, I think. As far as I can tell,
>>> by 1964 or so, only Command Records was still regularly making 35mm
>>> mag-film masters for music albums. Any information on other labels
>>> aside from Command and Project 3 regularly using 35mm as their
>>> recording and mastering medium in the mid-60's would be appreciated.
>>> The last Mercury Living Presence film sessions were 1963. Mercury's
>>> pop Perfect Presence series ended in late 1961, if I recall correctly.
>>>
>>> 3. By the late 60's, I think only Enoch Light's Project 3 Records was
>>> still regularly recording and/or mastering to 35mm. If anyone has
>>> information different from this, I'd be most appreciative if they'd
>>> share it. I think Project 3 continued to use 35mm regularly into the
>>> early 70's, even creating 4-track quad masters. But I don't have any
>>> specifics about that era and Project 3, so any additional information
>>> is greatly appreciated.
>>>
>>> For those shy and/or discreet, please feel free to ping me off-list
>>> and thank you in advnace.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> -- Tom Fine
>> The information in this email is confidential and may be legally privileged.
>> Access to this email by anyone other than the addressee is unauthorized.
>>
>> ****************************************************************************