Tom makes a really solid point about the issue of copyright. 
Particularly with old labels having sub-labels in them. For instance, I 
was sifting through my 45s yesterday and found a Geater Davis single on 
the House of Orange label. Just for simple curiosity, I looked up who 
owned the House of Orange label and found nothing. Basically, the only 
thing I can assume is that it is somehow related to the labels that 
originated the Philadelphia International label because it has a cover 
of a Jerry Butler song.

But, this sort of leads into a different point I was hoping to make. 
While there is a lot of concern over space and having a ton of "stuff," 
I think it's also important to note that the majority of music that was 
placed on vinyl, was never put on CD. I think there are some estimates 
of 50-60%, which means that, while downloads are more convenient and 
space-friendly, completely dropping all these records all together means 
we're shedding off some aspect of history. Whether it's valuable or not, 
well, that's a different matter that's determined by collectors and 
music aficionados. Which, I think Jack, pointed out with his 78 collection.

One route some groups have made is basically making very secure Bit 
Torrent systems, then uploading their albums to it for a small group of 
people to join in. To join in, people must submit stuff on a regular 
basis or they're kicked out. That way obscure stuff can still exist 
without it being completely leeched or available by someone with a 
really slow collection. But, then again, that's a little clandestine. ;)

Gary Powell

Tom Fine wrote:
> Hi Jack:
> Your situation is somewhat unique, perhaps so unique that there is not 
> even a niche market for it in the modern download world. However, you 
> raise a good point -- all the material that is currently out of print, 
> sometimes called "long-tail content." I've argued numerous times on 
> this list and in other forums that all of it should eventually be 
> available as downloads. There is, however, some cost involved with 
> digitizing old material and some masters are forever lost. The biggest 
> block, though, to getting the more obscure stuff online is copyright 
> laws. Stuff stays copyright in the US far too long, especially if it's 
> out of print. I've argued that there should be a requirement for 
> copyrights to last beyond what the rest of the world finds reasonable, 
> that the material should have to be in print in a common consumer 
> format or the copyright expires. If you didn't have the copyright 
> laws, much much more variety of material would be online for legal 
> download, put there by fans and collectors or a guy willing to sell 
> his amateur transfers for a quarter or a dime a song. It would be 
> great for consumers because it would probably drive download prices 
> down, as well as offering a "longer tail" of obscure sub-genre stuff 
> than is now legally available.
> Your point illustrates the main weakness of the current music business 
> model, and it was also touched on by Mike Biel about record stores in 
> the years before they all collapsed -- a lack of variety is widely 
> toxic to the business. It causes a general dissatisfaction among the 
> more mainstream consumers ("who cares, there's nothing new or 
> interesting there, just the same old stuff") and stymies those who 
> want to "go deep in the stacks" and really learn about a genre or 
> artist. A sure way for a stores buyer traffic to dry up.
> Finally, my point wasn't about unique collections like what yours 
> obviously was (since you were able to sell it). Hence my sentence 
> about Black Patty and Shaded Dog disks and McIntosh equipment. My 
> point was about what most of us have for collections, myself included. 
> Roomfuls of heavy and mostly worthless stuff, shelves of common 
> records and CD's, boxes of common and/or not-good-condition 78's, with 
> a subset of a small amount of the volume that's truly valuable. As 
> time goes on, many of us will find that even this subset won't raise 
> enough dough for our survivors to dispose of the mass of dumpster 
> fodder. And I think these dreams of libraries, universities and 
> archives suddenly springing up to collect and preserve all this are 
> pipe dreams, given likely economic conditions and general cultural 
> disinterest in anything "old" going forward.
> -- Tom Fine
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Palmer" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 11:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Virgin Sacrifice
>> Tom,
>>    I certainly qualify as an old man.  I'm even older than Mike!  But 
>> even if I was willing to download the music only I could not obtain 
>> the artist and the music I want.  It is only available from old 78s.  
>> Most of it has never been released on CD or even LP.  So where does 
>> that leave me? Either look for the old records or forget the music I 
>> want to hear?  So my choice is looking for the records.  And I enjoy 
>> it.  I have met so many interesting people and traveled across the 
>> entire US looking for the music.  I can't travel anymore due to 
>> health problems but I still check out several mail order lists and on 
>> line listings.  I feel I am doubly blessed.  I get to hear the music 
>> and I also have the original artifact that the music was issued on.  
>> You have to be a record collector (of any age) to know what it is 
>> like.   Jack
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Fine" 
>> <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 6:41 AM
>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Virgin Sacrifice
>>> Hi Mike:
>>> No offense, but your attitude about downloads shows your age. There 
>>> are definitely a few "kids" who want a houseful of dusty objects, 
>>> but I respect just as much the person who is collecting the MUSIC, 
>>> not the THING, in which case an iPod full of downloads is more MUSIC 
>>> in a more convenient place than ever existed before. Now if only 
>>> that music were in full CD quality or better instead of 
>>> lossy-compressed ...
>>> Since we can't take either one with us, it might be more merciful on 
>>> those we leave behind to leave a single computer drive and iPod vs. 
>>> a house of moldy things to be disposed of. On the other hand, if 
>>> it's a house full of minty Black Pattys, Shaded Dogs and McIntosh 
>>> amplifiers, perhaps the survivors will forgive the clutter as the 
>>> cash rolls in from selling it! But this isn't usually the case.  I 
>>> think there are guys on this list who appraise giant piles of 
>>> shellac and vinyl all the time and will report how worthless many 
>>> acres of this stuff is, so mainly it's a burden on those left behind 
>>> unless they share the love of the stuff or own a carting business.
>>> As for used bookstores, except for my strange inclination to collect 
>>> first edition hardcovers of certain mainstream books about politics 
>>> and journalism, I've had much better luck and saved tons of money 
>>> using AbeBooks. So once again, the Internet wins. Aside from books 
>>> about music and the record business, I've stopped buying altogether 
>>> due to lack of space. Library trumps wallet nowadays.
>>> -- Tom Fine
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Biel" <[log in to unmask]>
>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 1:30 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Virgin Sacrifice
>>> From: "Tom Fine" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Maybe it's an age thing, but I can't see any reason for physical 
>>>> stores
>>>> for music since Amazon took off. I haven't bought a book or CD from a
>>>> physical store in probably a decade now.
>>> To a certain extent that is similar to me, especially when I am home in
>>> Kentucky, far, far away from any record stores with just a small
>>> non-discount bookstore in town.  Constantly when something is discussed
>>> in these forums or I otherwise hear about something available, I check
>>> on Amazon and a couple of other places and ZIP, I click and buy.  The
>>> problem is not being able to combine shipping in the marketplace area,
>>> which raises the price considerably when buying several things that the
>>> same vendor offers.
>>> But that being said, when visiting Leah in NYC we always try to drop
>>> into Acadamy Records, Book-Off, Strand Books, and a neat remainder book
>>> place we found in the Village, and we usually leave these places with
>>> too many things to carry, so I usually drive there.  Then there are the
>>> special events like the semi- and annual sales at places like the
>>> ARChive of Contemporary Music that Leah and I hit this afternoon.  We
>>> crawled out with almost 100 one dollar LPs, almost 50 two dollar
>>> LaserDiscs, and some 50 cent 78s including two Chaillapin Opera Discs,
>>> Jazz at the Philharmonic Vol 4 on Disc album 504, Artie Shaw plays Cole
>>> Porter on Musicraft album S2, King Cole Trio Capitol album B8 with an
>>> extra disc, and Tetrazzini on the vinyl Heritage Series 15-0001, and
>>> some other stuff including two Hoffnung books.  (The sale continues 
>>> thru
>>> Sunday, so if you're in the NYC area you might want to check it out
>>>  )  And then there's the Jazz Record Bash on 
>>> Fri
>>> and Sat, and everybody will be there.  And then there's the Antique
>>> Phonograph and Record shop in South Jersey we went to last Saturday
>>> while in the Phila area and got a couple dozen 78s there.
>>> There is nothing like being able to handle and inspect the records,
>>> including the ones you don't buy, which can't be done on the internet
>>> nor in mail auctions.  While 78 collectors have been using mail 
>>> auctions
>>> since the 1930s, most of these collectors have also gone thru tens of
>>> thousands of records in stores, so they get to know what the details 
>>> are
>>> in the actual records.  I know I have looked at more than a million
>>> records over the years. This is an important learning experience for
>>> collectors.  When the rock collectors started having access to mail
>>> auctions in the late 70s in Goldmine and other magazines like it, I
>>> noticed that the majority of rock collectors had never really gone thru
>>> piles of thousands of records, and usually knew nothing about the
>>> records themselves.  Reading the articles in these rock collector
>>> magazines, looking at what they mistakenly called "discographies", and
>>> the auction lists themselves, showed how ignorant these rock collectors
>>> were, even the "experts".  All too often they had never looked at any
>>> records that were not already in their collection.  They didn't know
>>> labels, pressing plant styles, matrix numbers, etc.  Obvious 
>>> conterfeits
>>> were snapped up like the real things by them if they ventured out to a
>>> record show.
>>>> And downloads trump even that because not only are they convenient,
>>>> they are near-instant gratification.  Now if only full 44.1/16-bit
>>>> downloads would go down to 99 cents or less per song and be
>>>> commonplace, we'd finally be at a reasonable "new paradigm."
>>> So if these "collectors" now stick to just downloading things, that
>>> might leave the real artifacts for us real collectors. I'm not
>>> interested in paying for vapor, which is all a download is.  We did use
>>> some free streams as source for some of the music in Leah's documentary
>>> because most of the music was added while I was in New York and my
>>> records were in Kentucky.  I do buy plenty of CD reissues of 78s, so I
>>> am not a purist who insists on having the 78 even if it is impossibly
>>> rare.  But if the reissue is on a CD or a download, I will go for the
>>> CD.  You are not a record collector if you go for the download.  (In
>>> Leah's documentary, Kurt Nauck discusses the difference between music
>>> lovers who just want to listen to the music, and record collectors who
>>> want the record and also might listen to the record.)
>>> Mike Biel   [log in to unmask]