From: Patent Tactics, Laust Brock-Nannestad -- in George's absence: he knows about this discussion and will contribute late when he is back. He hopes the problem still exists at the end of the week. Laust > > I am eager to hear from my friend George Brock-Nannestad about this > discussion since he had done a lot of study of the technical > documentation in Europe in probably every language. Is he on vacation, > or pouring thru a basement full of books and photocopies trying to > research the facts before answering? > > Mike Biel [log in to unmask] > > > =============== > From: Goran Finnberg <[log in to unmask]> > > > Michael Biel: > > > Actually I don't think that anyone has ever heard of it. > > > I have read hundreds of books, articles, instruction > > manuals, guidebooks, etc. about recording techniques > > and technology dating from all eras of the industry, > > but have never seen anything relating the stamper to > > the word "son". Can you cite me some specific sources > > in print that use this term? I'm not saying that it > > has never been used, but it must be quite uncommon, at > > least in English. > > I have worked as a consultant to Skandinaviska Grammofon AB in Amal, > Sweden, > owned by EMI for most of its life, 1974 to 1989. > > It was supposed to be the largest vinyl record pressing plant in Europe > at > that time mid 70´s. > > All the production people called the parts Father, Mother and Son. > Including > calls to EMI England, or when EMI people turned up at the factory in > Sweden. > > Toolex-Alpha once world leader in vinyl pressing equipment called the > parts > Father, Mother and Son in the tree day seminar I went to in the 70´s. > And > this continued when they began producing presses for CD production when > I > helped out some friends who started Logos AB here in Gothenburg which > was > once a cassette duplicating plant but later on started producing CD´s. > > Sonopress in Germany, and many more too many to list, also referred them > to > be Father, Mother and Son. > > In fact dealing with hundreds upon hundreds of companies professionally > involved with mass duplication of Vinyl or CD disks here in Europe I > have > always seen, Father, Mother and Son, to be used as description of the > three > stages used to provide a replicated LP/CD disk to be used as the final > carrier to be sold in the retail shop. > > Using Google with the keywords: > > Record Pressing Father mother son stamper > > Turned up several hundred hits to numerous to list here but I looked at > a > few: > > > http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep03/articles/artwork.htm > > The etched glass master is not used to stamp discs itself, but is used > to > create a metal stamper through a process called electroforming. A layer > of > nickle is effectively grown onto the disc, transferring the etched pits > on > the glass into bumps in the metal disc to produce a 'father' disc. For > very > short CD pressing runs, this father can be used as the direct stamper, > but > it is more common to produce one or more 'mother' discs from the father, > and > then several 'sons' from each mother. The sons are used as stampers to > produce the raw plastic CD discs > > ------------------------- > > http://www.pctechguide.com/32CD-ROM_Manufacturing.htm > > In a process known as "electroforming", the metalised glass master has a > layer of nickel grown onto its silver surface by immersion in a tank of > nickel sulphamate solution. This sheet of nickel - referred to as the > "father" - is subsequently removed from the silver. The father is a > reverse > image of the data and could be used to stamp discs. However, it is not. > Instead, the father is returned to the electroforming tank where another > layer of nickel is grown and subsequently removed to create a "mother". > The > mother undergoes the same process to produce a "stamper" (sometimes > referred > to as a "son"). Several stampers can be grown from the same mother. > CD Pit Structure > > ------------------------- > > http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2009/0232928.html > > " Also, a mother stamper or a son stamper may be manufactured from the > father stamper. " > > ------------------------- > > http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090195925 > > [0106]Further, in the same manner as a procedure of obtaining the mother > stamper from the father stamper, an oxide film is formed on a surface of > the > mother stamper, and an Ni film is electroformed and released, thereby > obtaining a son stamper having the same patterns of the father stamper. > > --------------------------- > > http://www.odiscs.com/cd/cd_structures_formed.htm > > After the exposed areas are developed away by conventional methods to > produce pits, a rigid metal negative to the master, called the Father or > Master stamper, is produced by an electoplating process (see Figure 2). > > A multiple positive image Mother may be electroplated from the Father > stamper. In turn, negative image Son stampers are plated from each > Mother to > produce multiple copies of the original master. > > Mass replication of the source begins by mounting a Father or Son in a > molding press. Melted plastic is injected into the cavity and allowed to > cool. The pits from the stamper are accurately reproduced in a plastic > substrate, forming the original positive image. > > -------------------------- > > http://www.answers.com/topic/compact-disc > > Next, the newly applied metal layer is pulled apart from the disc > master, > which is put aside. The metal layer, or father, contains a negative > impression of the disc master track; in other words, the track on the > metal > layer is an exact replica, but in reverse, of the track on the disc > master. > * The metal father then undergoes further electroforming to produce one > or more mothers, which are simply metal layers that again have positive > impressions of the original disc master track. Using the same > electroforming > process, each mother then produces a son (also called a stamper) with a > negative impression of the track. It is the son that is then used to > create > the actual CD. > * After being separated from the mother, the metal son is rinsed, dried, > polished and put in a punching machine that cuts out the center hole and > forms the desired outside diameter. > > -------------------------------------- > > http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6814897.html > > According to a preferred embodiment of the invention, a first metallic > (Ni) > mold tool (father) is made which is a duplicate of a master substrate, > then > a resin mold tool (mother) is made which is a duplicate of the first > metallic mold tool and finally a second metallic (Ni) mold tool (son) is > made which is a duplicate of the resin mold tool. Both the father and > son > may be referred to a ³stamper². > > --------------------------------------- > > As I have also had to deal with Georg Neumann record cutting equipment > then > all the descriptions dealing with what happens after the laquer being > cut > then the descriptive words Father, Mother, Son was always used. > > Nowadays I am helping a young man who have bought an old Neumann VMS66 > cutter here in Gothenburg and he recently added record plating equipment > to > his services and without no promting from me he called the process > Father, > Mother Son when he spoke about this process as he had learnt it from the > previous owner. > > http://www.tailrecvinyl.com/ > > So to me at least, this is universally used here in most parts of > Europe. > > But looking in the 1973 edition of the EMI Technical Glossary page M2 > says: > > MATRIX: > > A metal part, originally produced from a laquer master, by the > electrodeposition of nickel: > > 1. Metal Master (Negative). > 2. Metal Mother (Positive). > 3. Metal Stamper (Negative). > > It is stated at the very beginning: > > The terms used here are the most commonly used in the recording and > manufacture of gramophone records. > > Gilbert Briggs, owner of Wharfedale loudspeakers, England in his book A > to Z > in audio, 11/1960 states on page 166: > > The sequence of record processing is as follows: > > 1.Laquer original - positive. > 2 Metal Master - negative. > 3 Metal Mother - positive. > 4 Metal stamper, known as the working matrix - negative; > 5 pressing - positive. > > The above presumably comes from the DECCA/London pressing plant at that > time. > > And I just consider the use of the above to be as common in certain > quarters > as Father, Mother, Son is to me. > > None of them is wrong one should just be aware that depending on where > you > are in the word that different words are used to describe the exact same > process. > > I could just use the word "Working Matrix" to describe the Son or > Stamper > and old ones in the production industry would understand at once what I > meant. > > Work part can be used too in a pinch....;-) > > > > -- > > Best regards, > > Goran Finnberg > The Mastering Room AB > Goteborg > Sweden > > E-mail: [log in to unmask] > > Learn from the mistakes of others, you can never live long enough to > make them all yourself. - John Luther