Sure, some are made from old duped 2-tracks and quarter-tracks, so you're about 4 generations away from the master tapes in a sea of high-speed-duped hiss. Great. Also, I've heard some of these and the ones I heard were super-heavy on "noise-reduction" DSP, which left digi-swishies and other nasty stuff. I can't understand how people can't hear that stuff and be repulsed. Tape hiss is WAY less annoying. -- Tom Fine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Lane" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2012 10:27 AM Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Mercury Living Presence Tom, Below is a posting I put on a Usenet group last year and the responses. Do you think there is any truth to the statement "Some of them are transferred from tape, by the way"? A working link to the Redisovery site is: http://www.rediscovery.us/ ************************************************************************************************* Randy Lane wrote: > On Nov 9, 10:45 am, catman > <sjhall...<http://groups.google.com/groups/unlock?hl=en%3Fhl%3Den&_done=/group/rec.music.classical.recordings/browse_thread/thread/2a4a5e0398380a64/ccc0a43e1b3564a2%3Fhl%3Den%253Fhl%253Den%26lnk%3Dgst%26q%3DDorati%2BHaydn%2BMercury&msg=7102f2f453961eda> @comcast.net> wrote: >> On Nov 9, 1:30 pm, Randy Lane >> <randy.l...<http://groups.google.com/groups/unlock?hl=en%3Fhl%3Den&_done=/group/rec.music.classical.recordings/browse_thread/thread/2a4a5e0398380a64/ccc0a43e1b3564a2%3Fhl%3Den%253Fhl%253Den%26lnk%3Dgst%26q%3DDorati%2BHaydn%2BMercury&msg=7102f2f453961eda> @gmail.com> wrote: >>> I put in a suggestion with Australian Eloquence to put together a >>> collection of *Dorati's **Haydn* Symphony recordings that were made for >>> *Mercury* (i.e., prior to the masssive complete symphony set). >>> I found 7 symphonies on 5 LPS: >>> SR 90208 - Philharmonia Hungarica - # 93 , # 104 >>> SR 90280 - London Symphony Orchestra - # 45 (with Mozart # 40) >>> SR 90415 - London Symphony Orchestra - # 100 (with Beethoven # 6) >>> SR 90436 - Festical Chamber Orchestra - # 59, # 81 >>> WC 18064 - London Symphony Orchestra - # 101 (with Mozart # 36) >>> Does anyone know of others? >> don't know why you couldn't just buy the whole set >> fromwww.ReDiscovery.us<http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=www.ReDiscovery.us&usg=AFQjCNGekM1p1hPupT9LQFJw7Fx0qTTG8w>... > Because I'd prefer to have a legal ( i.e., not pirated ) copy made > from original sources, not LPs. Even if it costs more. Not sure if you meant to say the Rediscovery transfers are illegal, but I don't believe they are. Some of them are transferred from tape, by the way. *********************************************************************** On Mon, Jun 4, 2012 at 3:49 AM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>wrote: > There's a lot of old Mercury mono stuff floating around on pirate labels > and gray-market stuff. If the copyright laws change, it may be very much in > the big companies' interest to get everything of any value back in print so > they can assert their ownership again. As long as it's available in a > good-sounding format (almost anything will beat many of the total-crap LP > dubs I've heard), readily available and sold at a reasonable price, I see > that as a Great Thing. As I understood Tim Brooks' presentation, that's the > goal of ARSC -- make it all available in a good-sounding format at a fair > price, companies use it or lose it. > > Bottom line on Mercury is, if it wasn't released on CD by > Polygram/Vivendi/Universal in the 90's or on SACD by Universal/Vivendi in > the early 2000's or in the new CD and LP box sets by UMG/Decca now, or the > handful of LP reissues by Classic Records in the 90's or the few-dozen LP > reissues by Speakers Corner in recent years, it's not an official > re-release and it's made from some mass-media source and it doesn't sound > remotely as good as it could if it were made from the master tapes. As I > said, all of the LP dubs I've heard do not sound good, most of them suffer > from lopped off top end and also terrible tin-eared overuse of "cleanup" > software. One would-be "golden ear" gray-market troll decided he needed to > "re-equalize" the LP and ended up with shrill junk full of digital > artifacts. You'd think an allegedly commercial enterprise, even a pirate, > would find a good-condition copy of the LP to dub, and maybe clean the > record before they start! In any case, I've made it clear in private and in > public that these products degrade the brand and should be chased by > lawyers when they are pirate products (such as those produced in the US) > and ultimately, the best solution is to reissue everything with good > transfers from the master tapes, and keep it in print (probably unrealistic > given today's business environment). > > To collectors I say, when you purchase this pirate and gray-market > garbage, you are creating a disincentive for good reissues to be produced > by the legitimate owners of the master tapes. This is true of ALL content, > not just Mercury by any means. These pirate and gray-market companies are > in existence because there are willing buyers for their inferior products. > If something is out of print, contact the legitimate owner and say, loudly > and repeatedly, that you'd like to see it back in print. Tell your friends > to do the same. You'd be surprised how little the big companies know about > pent-up demand for things, especially classical things. MANY classical > reissues from the "golden age" were driven by consumer pressure. > > > -- Tom Fine > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Lane" <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 11:50 PM > > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Mercury Living Presence > > > I recall some of Dorati's mono Haydn showing up on an obscure label a few >> years ago, but a friend who acquired the CDs said they sounded like >> LP-derive bootlegs. Well restored releases of those would be of great >> interest, as well as some of the Dorati Beethoven from that era. >> >> I wonder if there could be enough interest in some of the artists to >> generate some Japanese funded projects. Problem with most of the >> Asian markets is an excessive focus on very standard repertory; they never >> seem to tire of hearing the same works over and over and over; not much >> variety, and opera is almost a bygone comparatively. Just when you thought >> the North American and European markets were drowning in complete sets of >> the Beethoven Symphonies, the Japanese come along take it to even greater >> lengths. Hardly a month goes by with at least 3-4 complete sets being >> released, or rereleased, there. >> >> Interest there in Paray, Kubelik, and Dorati could generate some projects. >> Probably not much for the likes of Fennell and anson though. >> >> On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 7:29 PM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>** >> wrote: >> >> Hi Randy: >>> >>> There were definitely some CDs yet to be made when Vivendi/Universal >>> terminated the project by not renewing my mother's contract at the end of >>> 1999. The classical music business was in a bad slump at that point, so >>> this wasn't some malicious thing or disagreement, it was "just business," >>> in Godfather terms. In any case, there were definitely a few remaining >>> stereo items for which master tapes were accounted for. No more 35mm, >>> anything else that was originally released in 35mm and not so on CD, the >>> films were lost sometime between the early 60's and 1990. In a few cases >>> (most notably the Byron Janis Prokofiev/Rachmaninoff from Moscow), >>> 3-channel masters were never found but 2-tracks made at the time of the >>> LP >>> cutting were found and used. Keep in mind that the Mercury tapes were >>> stored for a time in NY, then warehoused in Chicago, then shipped to >>> Holland, where they shufled around, and then many were shipped back here >>> to >>> Iron Mountain's storage facility, some by way of Japan. Some were >>> mis-labelled, some got wet along the way, all kinds of things, typical of >>> megaglomeration of a bunch of companies. A good portion of the budget for >>> the project was spent researching and tracking down first-generation >>> tapes. >>> In several cases, edited 3-track masters weren't found, but Harold >>> Lawrence >>> had kept his edit notes so he could re-edit the "B" machine's reels, >>> which >>> had survived all the moving around. >>> >>> More interesting to me is the mono catalog. I would love to see a bunch >>> of >>> that material reissued. There are modern techniques that can clean up >>> problems on some early tapes and I think if a dedicated program of >>> high-quality transfers of the full-tracks were begun, it just as soon >>> encompass all the good stuff. I'd like to see all the mono Hanson back in >>> print, plus items like Dorati's mono "Rite of Spring" and Copland 3rd, >>> and >>> the Respighi "Church Windows." I'd also like to see the mono "1812" back >>> in >>> print, for historical purposes, because it was the best-selling classical >>> record from the beginning of the LP era into the 1960's. There are a few >>> Kubelik albums that didn't get released because they have very >>> problematic >>> tapes but I think modern technology could solve the problems if the >>> budget >>> were there. And even though only Dolby-ized dub tapes from the Golden >>> Imports exist for the Fennell Gabrieli album, I'd like to see that back >>> in >>> print. Also, just because it was a neat album, "The Music of the Bells," >>> recorded at the same time the Riverside Cathedral bells were used for the >>> stereo "1812." That album is more a sonic document of bells above busy >>> Manhattan circa 1959 than a classical-music album, but the bells are >>> played >>> very well. I think there was talk at the time the "1812"/"Wellington's" >>> CD >>> was being made of doing a 2CD set that also included the mono "1812" and >>> "Music of the Bells," but the budget was used up re-synchronizing and >>> re-mixing the weapons and SFX, this time with Wellington's Victory >>> perfectly in beat with the score. >>> >>> There are also a few interesting late 60's Mercury albums made after >>> Harold Lawrence departed. The last sessions with the San Antonio Symphony >>> netted interesting material, plus Hilde Somer made two interesting >>> Scriabin >>> solo-piano records, which I think should be packaged with some sort of >>> DVD >>> production similar to the light show she used to put on, per Scriabin's >>> own >>> notes and sketches. Evelyn Crochet also made at least one interesting >>> solo-piano record, it was released on Philips. >>> >>> I doubt any of this material will get a proper reissue because there's >>> just not a business model for it anymore. Again, it's "just business," no >>> underlying malice. >>> >>> -- Tom Fine >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Lane" <[log in to unmask]> >>> To: <[log in to unmask]> >>> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 9:01 PM >>> >>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Mercury Living Presence >>> >>> >>> How much classical material (expressed as a persentage) would you >>> estimate >>> >>>> (Tom) was NOT digitized under the direction of WCF? Is that material, >>>> due >>>> the required equipment, like "lost" forever now? >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jun 3, 2012 at 5:22 PM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>* >>>> *** >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Carl, you are correct that it was B&W 808's with big amps, I think by >>>> >>>>> Mark >>>>> Levinson, maybe Cello brand? That system got LOUD, like full orchestra >>>>> in >>>>> your face loud. The studio had a nice stereo spread and reliable >>>>> soundstage >>>>> and frequency response, so the 3-2 mix could be done with reliability >>>>> and >>>>> repeatability. I've described the audio chain before, so I'll just say >>>>> it >>>>> was very direct and there was no DSP stuff after conversion. >>>>> >>>>> The playback equipment and digital technology used in Germany were >>>>> different. I think the SACD's sound like the same tapes played back on >>>>> a >>>>> different machine, not a huge difference in sound (so if you're hearing >>>>> one, check your CD player regarding playback of the original CDs) but >>>>> more >>>>> "solid-statey" compared to playback on an Ampex 300. The first two >>>>> issues >>>>> have "un-Mercury" 3-2 mixes (the 2-channel SACD layer), not enough >>>>> center >>>>> channel in the mix. The last two batches sounded better (more like the >>>>> original CDs) in all respects, but I still prefer the CDs because they >>>>> are >>>>> real-deal Mercury. >>>>> >>>>> -- Tom Fine >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Pultz" <[log in to unmask]> >>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 8:00 PM >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Mercury Living Presence >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At Edison NJ, they had B&W 808s and, iirc, B&W amps and a Cello Audio >>>>> >>>>> Pallet >>>>>> used as a line amp/switcher - not too shabby. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List >>>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]******GOV <[log in to unmask]>] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of Clark Johnsen >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 1:07 PM >>>>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Mercury Living Presence >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 11:21 PM, DAVID BURNHAM <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Why would they not have heard these differences when they issued the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> CDs? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Two possible answers: 1) Recording studio audio systems generally >>>>>>> s*ck. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2) >>>>>> Wishful thinking. >>>>>> >>>>>> I recall that back in the late Seventies Victor Campos asserted that >>>>>> he >>>>>> had >>>>>> found a cartridge that made LPs sound "just like the master tapes" (of >>>>>> which he owned numerous good copies). That cartridge? A mid-priced >>>>>> Audio >>>>>> Technica. Yes. >>>>>> >>>>>> A couple years later he had a Sonus Blue... much better! >>>>>> >>>>>> clark >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dave b >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>