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"Clark are you saying you prefer Dynagrooves to earlier Living Stereo cuts?"

Good God no!

"The NYT as a source of a technology review doesn't impress me the least."

Nor me, and that was the point.

At the time, listening with an audio buddy, we couldn't manage to listen to
more that a few minutes of that trash, despite the fact it was Mahler done
by our local band.

clark

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 8:33 PM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> This has nothing to do with my statement about RCA's competitors, and RCA
> made plenty of marketing use of Fantel's shilling.
>
> The NYT as a source of a technology review doesn't impress me the least.
> They have a long history of ignorant shilling for various "latest-greatest"
> technology interests, especially if those interests are big buyers of ad
> space.
>
> Clark are you saying you prefer Dynagrooves to earlier Living Stereo cuts?
>
> -- Tom Fine
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clark Johnsen" <[log in to unmask]
> >
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2012 8:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Details on vinyl to digital re-mastering
>
>
> "There were probably some moments of fear and loathing among competitors --
> until they put the first Dynagroove LPs on their turntables, took a listen
> and laughed loudly."
>
> Hmmm... But to quote Hans Fantel, later (although perhaps already) a critic
> for the New York Times:
>
> The first few measures of music I heard on RCA Victor Dynagroove left no
> doubt that a major technical advance had been achieved…The bass rolled out
> with astonishing richness, the highs were clear and crisp, and heavily
> scored passages were transparent in every musical detail. .The Dynagroove
> record reflects advances on many fronts, correlated by RCA engineers into a
> consistent technical process, at the heart of which are new techniques and
> equipment. *Computers have been introduced to audio for the first time*…All
> this adds up to what is, in my opinion, a remarkable degree of musical
> realism. The technique is ingenious and sophisticated, but its validation
> is simple: the ear confirms it.
>
>
> And there you have it.
>
>
> clark
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 4:14 PM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>**
> wrote:
>
>  When the first Dynagroove record came out -- I think it was a Mahler
>> symphony by Leinsdorf/BSO --  RCA made a huge splash, including lengthy
>> technical essays in the album packaging plus much publicity in trade
>> publications and hifi mags. There were probably some moments of fear and
>> loathing among competitors -- until they put the first Dynagroove LPs on
>> their turntables, took a listen and laughed loudly.
>>
>> RCA ruined a major competitive weapon -- their excellent sound quality --
>> in one ill-conceived move. Until Dynagroove, RCA was making classical
>> records of a sound quality usually on par with the smaller
>> quality-oriented
>> labels, but with RCA's superior roster of famous musicians and conductors.
>> Their pressing plant in Indiana was the best in the US.  The point is that
>> they were already putting out excellent records and didn't need to upset
>> the apple cart. There's probably a business school case study in why you'd
>> mess so drastically with that formula. And then, they stubbornly stuck
>> with
>> Dynagroove even after it was panned. And then, in the late 60's, they came
>> out with paper-thin Dynaflex records. It's interesting how a company that
>> ushered in many technical innovations over the years, and established a
>> very strong quality-oriented culture, went down such a wrong path and then
>> stuck on it until the end.
>>
>> -- Tom Fine
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donald Tait" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2012 3:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Details on vinyl to digital re-mastering
>>
>>
>>  I'd like to add my voice to Tom's about Dynagroove LPs. They were a major
>> "retro" step around 1963. In addition to the sonic faults cited so far,
>> another was the squashing of dynamic range. As we know, Ravel's Bolero is
>> among other things a very long crescendo, beginning extremely quietly and
>> gradually building to a loud climax. Charles Munch's last (1962) Boston
>> Symphony recording of Bolero, released on LM/LSC-2664, begins as loudly as
>> it ends. There is no dynamic range to speak of. Speaking metaphorically,
>> what happens is that the sound becomes progressively thicker in sonority
>> rather than changing dynamically. And some Dynagroove LPs indeed had
>> distortion. Morton Gould's circa 1965 recording of his Spirituals with the
>> Chicago Symphony (I don't have the catalogue number to hand) is
>> extraordinarily sonorous and tonally rich on the Red Seal stereo
>> Dynagroove
>> LP, but the climaxes are seriously overloaded. But as has been said, some
>> Dynagroove LPs were better than others. Especially later in the series,
>> when they seemed to back off a bit from the manipulation.
>>
>>  Dynagroove reminds me of what a late friend used to say, paraphrasing
>> David Letterman: "another stupid RCA trick." My experience has parallelled
>> Tom's: the CD reissues are better.
>>
>>  Don Tait
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: ARSCLIST <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Fri, Sep 7, 2012 5:24 am
>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Details on vinyl to digital re-mastering
>>
>>
>> Hi Evan:
>>
>> Most RCA stuff from the dynagroove era got released on CD. My advice is,
>> find
>> the CD. Dynagroove was
>> a bad idea. Often, it was a badly executed bad idea. Some of those records
>> sound
>> so bad they are not
>> fixable because of the sibilance problem you mentioned. There might be
>> some
>> gold-plated,
>> made-in-the-moonlight-by-****virgins megabux cartridge that doesn't
>> splash
>> that kind
>> of high-frequency
>> energy, but I doubt it since i think the overload was in the cutterhead,
>> so it's
>> baked in.
>>
>> -- Tom Fine
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan MacBeth" <
>> [log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2012 12:19 AM
>> Subject: [ARSCLIST] Details on vinyl to digital re-mastering
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Only moderately off track, does anyone have any particular tips for
>> transferring
>> Stereo RCA
>> Dynagroove discs from the early 60s? The disc i'm trying to copy has such
>> an
>> over-the-top top end. I
>> intend to reduce the top end a bit, but does anyone know if Dynagroove
>> used a
>> specific top end
>> boost?
>>
>> In addition, certain sibilant syllables from the vocalist distort terribly
>> while
>> others in the same
>> song do not - but if i sum the two channels to mono the sibilance doesn't
>> distort at all. Whether
>> this is down to the vocalist's mic technique or not, i wouldn't know - i
>> don't
>> have any other
>> Dynagroove albums to compare this to. Also, this is a brand new disc, it
>> was
>> still sealed until i
>> cracked it open on Tuesday (and yes, it needed a clean!) but i've had the
>> same
>> problem in the same
>> place with other copies too.
>>
>> Any tips at all?
>> Cheers,
>> Evan.
>>
>>