On 11/30/12 7:33 AM, Stephen Hearn wrote:
> As Karen notes, Publisher is not typically added as an authorized
> heading in AACR2 cataloging, but it can be. There are authorities for
> publisher names, and there is a MARC relator term/code (Publisher/pbl)
> for this relationship, also authorized for RDA.

Stephen, Thanks.

can you say more about the circumstances, and if this authorized heading 
is *in addition to* the transcribed publisher statement? If it is 
something that is quite rare, then maybe it shouldn't be used as an 
example in the simple view of the model. I'm guessing that it can be 
used as a subject (a book about the Aldine Press, for example) and 
possibly as a corporate body creator. With the role "pub" my guess is 
that it would be used mainly for rare books where the publisher itself 
is of interest (Aldine Press again).

> The  Bibframe model
> will need to accommodate this sort of thing--relationships that are
> enabled for specialized use, not just the ones that are most common.
> And it will inevitably need to accommodate relationships between
> established entities and each kind of bibliographic object, however
> those ultimately get sorted out and named.
> Current MARC authorities are themselves a poor model for FRBR Work and
> Expression entities in that MARC cannot express properties like
> subject which FRBR says belong to these entities.
? I'm unclear on what you mean here. MARC expresses "subject" by coding 
data in a 6xx field, no? Or do you mean that MARC can't specify that the 
6xx relates to work? (Which, since in FRBR/RDA subjects *only* relate to 
work is unambiguous.)

> I don't see any
> effort in the early Bibframe model to argue for the appropriateness of
> either the current authority data structure or the term "authorities,"
> which is fine. Both currently reflect a focus on "authorized" heading
> forms which promises to become a lesser component of the identified
> entity representations we're moving toward with RDA. If "authority"
> was used in the model document to give catalogers something familiar
> to grab onto, maybe that wasn't such a good idea. Better to explain
> more clearly where we've been and where we're going.

I agree that if the term "authority" is used differently in the bibframe 
model then it will be confusing. The definition in the model is:

"BIBFRAME Authorities are key authority concepts that are the target of 
relationships reflected in the Work and Instance. Example of BIBFRAME 
Resources include People, Places, Topics,
Organizations, etc. From a cataloging
perspective Authorities provide a means for
supporting disambiguation and synchronization
around authoritative information. From a users
perspective, BIBFRAME Authorities provide
effective and efficient control points that can be
used to help navigate and contextualize related
BIBFRAME Works and Instances."

It's unfortunate that it defines authorities as "key authority concepts" 
-- so maybe it does need further unpacking. In particular, there is the 
question about controlled lists v. authorities. They both fit nicely 
into SKOS but we haven't treated them as being "same" for cataloging 
purposes in the past. As we move away from headings defined as text 
strings, the difference between authority control and vocabulary control 
will probably diminish, and I believe that both LC and OCLC have 
pondered this when working with name authority files. For this reason it 
is even more important to clarify what we mean by BIBFRAME Authority.

> The Bibframe model's eliding of  FRBR works and expressions is
> concerning, but I do welcome the comment that Bibframe expects to
> distinguish types of works. This acknowledgment that Works (and by
> implication Expressions) need to be sorted into types could help us
> label work descriptions in a way that would let us say both that
> Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet is a work and that a resource which
> aggregates Romeo and Juliet with an introduction, a critical essay, a
> glossary, etc., is also a work, but an aggregate work (as FRBR 3.3
> states), without sacrificing the ability to distinguish these two
> types of work. They represent different levels of abstraction and
> users searching for works should be able to specify which they
> want--the thirty-some dramatic works Shakespeare wrote, or the
> thousands of aggregate works centered on those thirty-some plays.

If you have a spare hour or so, start here:
http:[log in to unmask]
and follow the thread (which you may have followed originally, but 
reading through it definitely refreshed my memory)
This is a thread about FRBR and aggregates, and I believe that we still 
have a serious problem with how this is modeled in FRBR, and also in 
RDA. I am going to try to write a summary of what was said on that 
thread, but it may take a while.

> Stephen
> On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 5:24 AM, Karen Coyle <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this yet, but the authority examples
>> used in the diagrams in the document do not ring true for me, and I admit
>> that they are presenting a stumbling block in terms of my own mental image
>> of bibframe.
>> Place of publication and publisher are not authority controlled. These are
>> transcribed elements. "Publisher" in particular is problematic because what
>> is transcribed from the title page is often the name of an imprint ("Penguin
>> Classics") not the identity of a corporation or institution. (And with all
>> of the buyouts of publishers, I think most of us would be hard-pressed to
>> develop a coherent "who's who" in that area.) Physical format is a
>> controlled vocabulary, but those are not generally called "authorities."
>> Almost all authority controlled elements in RDA have their relationships to
>> either Work or Expression (which I believe means BIBFRAME Work). There are
>> some authority controlled relationships to manifestations (I keep a cheat
>> sheet here [1]), but they tend to be rather specialized, relating to rare
>> book cataloging or materials like braille.
>> [Note: There is a Publisher role listed in RDA related to Manifestation, but
>> I don't know when it is used. I'm suspecting rare books again, but hope
>> someone more knowledgeable on the list can respond.]
>> There will be authority controlled entities with relationships to item (same
>> cheat sheet), again for specialized materials.
>> In current data, "Work" and "Expression" are sometimes represented in an
>> authority record. Classical music works seem to always get such an authority
>> entry. I'm not at all clear on what happens to these as we move into RDA,
>> since the FRBR:Work entity carries the data elements that are now in the
>> authority record (plus others), and the anticipated identifier for the
>> FRBR:Work entity would perform the identification function of the current
>> authoritative heading.
>> I hope and expect that library data will expand its use of identified
>> entities in the future. I would very much like to see at least a controlled
>> list for place of publication (because I can think of uses for that). This
>> would have to exist along with the transcribed place information, since that
>> has a different purpose.
>> kc
>> p.s. Catalogers on the list: please feel free to correct any mis-statements
>> here about RDA!
>> [1]
>> --
>> Karen Coyle
>> [log in to unmask]
>> ph: 1-510-540-7596
>> m: 1-510-435-8234
>> skype: kcoylenet

Karen Coyle
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ph: 1-510-540-7596
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