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To illustrate Gérard's point about "eur" see: http://ec.europa.eu/

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Best

François Demay

Try to imagine the same page when Montenegro (after Croatia / Croatian  HR)
will join the EU!



2013/9/11 Gérard Lang-Marconnet <[log in to unmask]>

> Dear Havard,
> Dear Christian,
> In my personal opinion, the situation is not so evident.
> I will give some examples of code elements that have a quasi-reserved
> status.
>
> 1/ Concerning ISO 639-1 alpha-2 code elements:
> (i) "ji" (Yiddish) that was published in ISO 639 (1988), was replaced by
> "yi" on 11-03-1989;
> (ii) in" (Indonesian) that was published in ISO 639 (1988), was replaced
> by "in" on 11-03-1989;
> (iii) "iw" (Hebrew/ Iwrith) that was published in ISO 639 (1988), was
> replaced by "he" on 11-03-1989;
> (iv) sh" (Serbo-Croatian that was published in ISO 639 (1988) and was
> deprecated on 18-02-2000. The same code element was further reinstalled
> with the publication of ISO 639-1 (2002) and one more time deprecated in
> 2005;
> (v) "jw" (Javanese) was published in table 1 of ISO 639 (1988), but was in
> fact a double with "jv" that was given in tables 2 and 3 of ISO 639 (1988),
> so that "jw" and has been deleted on 13-08-2001;
> (vi) "mo" (Moldovan) that had been created in ISO 639-1 on 26-06-2008 was
> rapidly (only after 5 months) deprecated on 03-11-2008 and replaced by
> "ro"; the corresponding change notice states that this identifier will not
> be assigned to different items, and recordings using these identifiers will
> not be invalid, so that the ISO 3166 uses "mo" to represent the name of
> language "Moldovan" following the fact that article 13 of the Moldovan
> Constitution writes " (1) The national language of the Republic of Moldova
> is Moldovan, and its writing is based on the Latin alphabet".
>
> 2/ Concerning ISO 639-2 alpha-3 code elements
> (i) "jaw"(Javanese) that was published as ISO 639-2/T code element, with
> "jav" as corresponding ISO 639-2/B code element, in ISO 639-2(1998) was
> replaced by "jav"on 13-08-2001;
> (ii) esp" (Spanish) was not initially published as an official code
> element in ISO 639-2 (1998); in fact  spa" was published as initial ISO
> 639-2:B and T code element. But the following note was written in the three
> published tables "After a period of five years from the publication of this
> standard, "esp" may be used as the ISO 639-2/T (terminology) code for
> Spanish". So that, because ISO 3166 uses the T version of ISO 639-2, "esp"
> was published in ISO 3166-1 (2006) and in ISO 3166-2 (2007). It seems that
> the JAC decided in 2004 not to replace "spa" by "esp" as the ISO 639-2/T
> code element for Spanish. I never saw this decision, that is not to be
> found in the ISO 639-2 change notice list. Anyway, as no revision of the
> text of ISO 639-2 has been made from 1998 on to act this, it remains
> possible to challenge the legitimity of such a JAC decision
> (iii) "scc" (Serbian) that was published as ISO 639-2/B code element, with
> "srp" as corresponding ISO 639-2/T code element in ISO 639-2 (1998)was
> replaced by "srp" on 28-08-2008;
> (iv)"scr" (Croation) that was published as ISO 639-2/B code element , with
> "hrv" as corresponding ISO 639-2/T  code element in ISO 639-2 (1998 ) was
> replaced by "hrv"  on 28-06-2008
>
> (v) "mol" (Moldovan) that had been created in ISO 639-2 on 26-06-2008 was
> rapidly (only after 5 months) deprecated on 03-11-2008 and replaced by
> "ron"(B) and "rum" (T); the corresponding change notice states that this
> identifier will not be assigned to different items, and recordings using
> these identifiers will not be invalid, so that ISO 3166 uses "mol" to
> represent the name of language "Moldovan", following the Constitution of
> the Republic of Moldova.
>
>
> As everybody seems to be OK that no ISO 639 code element having
> represented a name of language in the past from the beginning should be
> reused to represent another name of language, it seems that my examples
> concerning ISO 639-1 and ISO 639-2 must be considered as reserved code
> elements. Moreover, in the case of "mo" and "mol" we are practically vey
> near of the case of immediate  rejection of a new proposed code element.
> Let me also add that the normative clause A.3.4 "Reservation of codes" of
> ISO 639-2 (for example) is still explicitely in force today and that this
>  cannot be changed by a vote of the JAC; only a revision of the text of ISO
> 639-2 could achieive this.
>
>
> 3/ Moreover, concening ISO 639-3 alpha-3 code elements, we have the ugly
> case of "eur".
> "eur" was on the initial list of the ISO 639-3/RA published after the
> adoption of the ISO 639-3 standard (2007).
> The definition of the considered language name was "Europanto: this is the
> name of the language commonly used by the bureaucrats of the European
> Communities in their headquarter in Brüssels".
> I rapidly asked the ISO 639/RA to suppress from their list this code
> element, considering that the alleged "name of language" did not correspond
> to anything existing and was using a very useful alpha-3 code element.. It
> was answered that "eur" was certainly interesting, at least as a good joke,
> and that no reason for the requested suppression was found. So, I made a
> very official request for the creation of the new alpha-3 ISO 639-3 code
> element "neg" to represent the name of language defined as "Neglish: this
> is the name of the language commonly used  by the bureaucrats of NATO in
> their headquarter near Brüssels". ISO 639-3 refused to register this very
> official request, but miraculously decided soon after that to suppress the
> code element "eur".
> I do not find it intelligent to block the use of such an useful and
> meaningful code element like "eur". So that I propose, as an exceptional
> and elegant reestablishment for this case to slightly change the
> interpretation of "eur" from an indistinct and not-existing combination
>  between all official languages of the European Community to the very list
> of the (currently) 24 official languages of the European Community. We
> would then create the first example of an alpha-3 ISO 639-5 code element
>  to represent a language group (defined by clause 3.6 of ISO 639-5 as "two
> or more individual languages that, for some purpose, may suitably be
> treated as a unit") by definig "eur" as the code element representing the
> name of the group of languages "Official languages of the European Union".
>
> Bien amicalement.
> Gérard Lang
>
>
>
>
> Le 11 sept. 2013 à 05:38, Håvard Hjulstad a écrit
>
> Hi,****
> ** **
> Just a quick response to “1 a”: I have never had to process any requests
> for “reserved identifier”. The way I interpreted the rule is: (1) request
> for identifier; (2) JAC processing results in “no”; (3) request to “at
> least reserve an identifier”, in case things change; (4) new JAC processing
> of that request. There never were any “(3)” during my time, and
> consequently no “(4)”.****
> ** **
> Best regards,
> Håvard****
> ** **
> --------------------
> Håvard Hjulstad
>   prosjektleder / Project Manager****
>   Standard Norge / Standards Norway
>   [log in to unmask]
>   http://www.standard.no/
> --------------------
> P Tenk på miljøet før du skriver ut denne e-posten. / Please consider the
> environment before printing this e-mail.**
> ** **
> *Fra:* ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *På
> vegne av* Christian Galinski
> *Sendt:* 10. september 2013 22:58
> *Til:* [log in to unmask]
> *Emne:* WG: Request from the ISO/TC 46 to the ISO 639/RA-JAC for the
> creation of 11 alpha-2 ISO 639-1 code elements concerning the name of
> administrative languages****
> ** **
> Dear Colleagues,****
> ** **
> we will have to deal with the official request of ISO/TC 46 concerning 2-
> and 3-letter symbols for 11 languages. Before starting the process I would
> like to suggest that we clarify 2 issues:****
> ** **
> (1) concerning ISO 639-1:2002 clause A.3.4 “Reservation of identifiers":**
> **
> "When a request for inclusion of a new entity has been rejected, ISO
> 639-1/RA may reserve the requested identifier for the use of the applicant
> and others possible users. ISO 639-1 will keep a record of such
> reservations and will inform the ISO 639-2/RA of such."****
> In this connection I would like to ask****
> a) Håvard whether he has a record on such reservations (because such cases
> were long in the past),****
> b) all of you, whether we have considered this clause in our discussions
> after the problem with the reuse of an outdated country symbol to another
> country by ISO 3166/MA – in fact, whether this clause is still necessary or
> will need rewording in future ISO 639.****
> ** **
> (2) concerning the assignment of language symbols based on mnemotechnic
> principles (whether based on the English name of a language or the original
> name of it):****
> In this connection I would like to ask you to consider a slight
> modification of the rules – or rather our practice to apply the rules –:**
> **
> a) we will run for sure into more problematic cases the more language
> names are coded, and our argument that the language symbol is merely a code
> and not an abbreviation is weak.****
> (in this connection the alignment with country names is probably not
> really helpful either)****
> b) our colleague Marion Kresse suggested to select new language symbols
> from a table showing available letter combinations (as we do) – but
> choosing the second and/or third letter in such a way that they do not look
> too much like an abbreviation of the language name in question. In several
> cases we had to do this anyhow – either due to the lack of letter
> combinations to choose for the language symbol or because of two or more
> different languages had similar names.****
> c) we had internally agreed to reserve as much as possible the letters x,
> y and z for difficult cases in the future (see for instance airport codes,
> such as YMX for Montreal International or YND for Ottawa or XRH for
> Richmond in AUS /=Australia, not AUT=Austria/ - similar problems in
> different coding systems)****
> ** **
> Best regards****
> Christian****
> ** **
> ** **
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Gérard Lang-Marconnet [mailto:[log in to unmask]<[log in to unmask]>
> ]
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Juni 2013 12:10
> An: Galinski Christian; Zagas John; ISO639-3 Melinda; Constable Peter;
> Drude Sebastian; Kresse Maren; Hakala Juha; Porteneuve Elisabeth; Demay
> François; Patton Glenn; Le Feuvre Pierrick; Lang Gérard; Ferres Mercé;
> Pelaprat Mary-Lou; Warburton Kara; Warburton Kara 2; Pelle Françoise
> Betreff: Request from the ISO/TC 46 to the ISO 639/RA-JAC for the creation
> of 11 alpha-2 ISO 639-1 code elements concerning the name of administrative
> languages****
> ** **
> Dear All,****
> In my capacity of liaison officer from ISO/TC 46 to ISO/TC 37, let me
> inform you that during the plenary session of its 2013 annual meeting in
> Paris, ISO/TC 46 (Information and Documentation) adopted on Friday
> 2013-06-07 the following resolution 2013-01:****
> ISO/TC 46 asks the Joint Advisory Committee on Registration authorities
> for ISO 639 "Codes for the representation of names of languages" to
> consider attributing alpha-2 code elements for the languages listed in
> Document N490, that are administrative languages for ISO 3166-1 countries
> and need to be referenced to in ISO 3166 "Codes for the representation of
> names of countries and their subdivisions".****
> ** **
> The corresponding list of the 11 alpha-2 ISO 639-1 requested code
> elements, as proposed by the ISO 3166/MA, follows. Each line gives the
> proposed/requested alpha-2 code element, the name of the language to be
> represented (in english and in french), the corresponding alpha-3 ISO 639-2
> (or ISO 639-3, if necessary, followed by *) corresponding code element and
> (the list of) the alpha-2 ISO 3166-1 code element(s) representing the
> interessed country.****
> ** **
> 1/ cm; Shikomor/ comorien; ---; KM;****
> 2/ gi; Gilbertese/ kiribati; gil; KI****
> 3/ me; Montenegrin /monténegrin;---; ,ME; 4/ ni; Niuean/ niué; niu; NU; 5/
> ns; Soto, Northern/ sotho du nord; nso; ZA; (Remark: among the
> 11administrative languages of South Afrika, whose names all have an alpha-3
> ISO 639-2 code element this is the only one case ****
>                                                                               not
> to have an alpha-2 ISO 639-1 code element) 6/ pp; Papiamento/ papiamento;
> pap; BQ, CW; 7/ pw; Paluan/ palau; pau; PW; 8/ sy; Seselwa Creole French/
> seychellois; crs*; SC;****
> 9: tm; Tetum/ tetum; tet; TL;****
> 10/ tp; Tok pisin/ tok pisin; tpi; PG;****
> 11: tv; Tuvalu/ tuvalu; tvl; TV****
> ** **
> ** **
> In the case that some of these 11 requested code elements would not be
> accepted, ISO/TC 46 would, as I explained at the ISO 639/RA-JAC meeting in
> Paris on 2013-06-04, ask for the application of the normative clause" A.3.4
> Reservation of identifiers" of ISO 639-1:2002 (further consolidated in
> clause A.5 of ISO 639-4:2010), that writes;****
> "When a request for inclusion of a new entity has been rejected, ISO
> 639-1/RA may reserve the requested identifier for the use of the applicant
> and others possible users. ISO 639-1 will keep a record of such
> reservations and will inform the ISO 639-2/RA of such.",****
> so as to be able to use all 11 requested code elements for ISO 3166.****
> ** **
> We would like the ISO 639/RA-JAC to consider these requests as soon as
> possible, because the votes on the three parts of the new edition 2013 of
> ISO 3166 closed very recently on 2013-06-19 with positive results (for
> example ISO 3166-1:2013 was unanimously approved, with 29 yes and 6
> abstentions on 35 voting P-members), so that it would be nice to be able to
> insert the requested code elements in the publication of the new edition of
> ISO 3166.****
> ** **
> Bien amicalement.****
> Gérard Lang=****
>
>
>