I agree! Under AACR2, CCTs, aka collective UTs, were optional. When I first became a cataloger, more than 30 years ago, people were arguing that the main entry was obsolete, because technology made it possible to access a work in so many different ways. But now we are standing on our heads to expand the concept of main entry into authorized access points for works and expressions. I hope that the future will offer more flexibility. Amy Amy Turner Monographic Cataloger and Authority Control Coordinator Duke University Libraries [log in to unmask] From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Hostage Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 2:13 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] NACO Training Materials on CLW page The third one! ------------------------------------------ John Hostage Senior Continuing Resources Cataloger // Harvard Library--Information and Technical Services // Langdell Hall 194 // Cambridge, MA 02138 [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> +(1)(617) 495-3974 (voice) +(1)(617) 496-4409 (fax) From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Kevin M Randall Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 13:44 To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] NACO Training Materials on CLW page But if you have three different resources all called "Bach, P. D. Q., 1742-1807. Works. Selections", how do you distinguish them? If you need to have a 6XX or 7XX added entry in another bib record (if something is about one of these collective works, or contains one of these collective works), the AAP is pretty vague, isn't it? For "Jekyll & Hyde tour", which of these makes most sense: Bach, P. D. Q., 1742-1807. Works. Selections (Jekyll & Hyde tour) Bach, P. D. Q., 1742-1807. Works. Selections Bach, P. D. Q., 1742-1807. Jekyll & Hyde tour Kevin From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Herrold, Charles Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 12:07 PM To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] NACO Training Materials on CLW page I couldn’t have said that better myself, Steven. And yes, Kevin, that’s what I’m saying about the P.D.Q. Bach. I’m not questioning the legitimacy of the decision made by BYU, just the practical utility of such access points. And I still see value in collocating by Works. Selections rather than by 1712 overture & other musical assaults, which is available as a title search in any case. Say someone wants a collection of Chopin piano music, with no specific one in mind. The conventional collective title brings those resources together; the titles on the resources do not. I’m old enough to believe that “left anchor OPACs” are still viable, especially considering the “new and improved” next generation catalog that CLP now inflicts on its customers as a default. But that is indeed another thread. Chuck Herrold From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Arakawa, Steven Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 12:33 PM To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] NACO Training Materials on CLW page Kevin, et al: I think expecting the poor AAP to be a fully functional basis for identification will result in the sort of Frankenstein monster Charles refers to, where catalogers end up grafting bits and parts to a preferred conventional collective title in order to second guess the semantic web of the future. Right now, we work in MARC, not a set of linked identifiers, and the best we can do under the circumstances is to let the bibliographic record bear some of the task of identification. It seems to me we use conventional collective titles to avoid the problems of differentiation and identification associated with the actual work title of compilations/aggregations in the MARC environment, and treating the CCT alternative as a real work title kind of defeats the purpose. Of course, given the discovery systems based on keyword that are now replacing the old left anchor opacs, collocaton may be pointless, at least in the middle term future. But that's probably another thread. Steven Arakawa Catalog Librarian for Training & Documentation Catalog & Metadata Services, SML, Yale University P.O. Box 208240 New Haven, CT 06520-8240 (203)432-8286 [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> ________________________________ From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Kevin M Randall [[log in to unmask]] Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 10:38 AM To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: NACO Training Materials on CLW page Chuck, are you saying that the following three access points would be sufficient to identify three different resources: Bach, P. D. Q., 1742-1807. Works. Selections Bach, P. D. Q., 1742-1807. Works. Selections Bach, P. D. Q., 1742-1807. Works. Selections The first being for "1712 overture & other musical assaults", the second for "A little nightmare music; Octoot; Royal firewater musick"; and the third for "Jekyll & Hyde tour". Because that's what it looks like you are saying in the sentence "I would be happy with Works. Selections applying to all three of these collections." Kevin M. Randall Principal Serials Cataloger Northwestern University Library [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> (847) 491-2939 Proudly wearing the sensible shoes since 1978! From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Herrold, Charles Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 7:44 AM To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] NACO Training Materials on CLW page Amy Turner makes some excellent observations. I found an extraordinary set of “aggregate work” ARs while doing some cataloging maintenance yesterday: 046 ǂk 1989 1001 Bach, P. D. Q., ǂd 1742-1807. ǂt Works. ǂk Selections (1712 overture & other musical assaults) 380 Aggregate work 4001 Bach, P. D. Q., ǂd 1742-1807. ǂt 1712 overture & other musical assaults 4001 Bach, P. D. Q., ǂd 1742-1807. ǂt 1712 overture and other musical assaults 4001 Schickele, Peter. ǂt Selections ǂw nnea 667 Includes: 1712 overture : S. 1712; Bach portrait; Capriccio La pucelle de New Orleans = The maid of New Orleans : S. under 18; Minuet militaire : S. 1A; Prelude to Einstein on the fritz : S. e=mt2; The preachers of Crimetheus : ballet in one selfless act : S. 988. 670 1712 overture & other musical assaults, 1989 046 ǂk 1983 1001 Bach, P. D. Q., ǂd 1742-1807. ǂt Works. ǂk Selections (A little nightmare music ; Octoot ; Royal firewater musick) 380 Aggregate work 4001 Bach, P. D. Q., ǂd 1742-1807. ǂt Little nightmare music ; Octoot ; Royal firewater musick 4001 Schickele, Peter. ǂt Selections ǂw nnea 667 Includes: A little nightmare music ; Octoot ; Royal firewater musick 670 LCCN 85-755075: Schickele, P. A little nightmare music ; Octoot ; Royal firewater musick [SR] p1983. 046 ǂk 2007 1001 Bach, P. D. Q., ǂd 1742-1807. ǂt Works. ǂk Selections (Jekyll & Hyde tour) 380 Aggregate work 4001 Bach, P. D. Q., ǂd 1742-1807. ǂt Jekyll & Hyde tour 4001 Bach, P. D. Q., ǂd 1742-1807. ǂt Jekyll and Hyde tour 667 Includes works by P.D.Q. Bach and Peter Schickele: Long live the king / P.D.Q. Bach ; Four Next-to-Last songs: Das kleines Birdie, Der Cowboykönig, Gretchen am Spincycle, Es war ein dark und shtormy Night / P.D.Q. Bach ; String quartet in F major (The Moose): Allegro ma non troposphere, Largo alla Fargo, Menuetto no sweato, Grave e molto deepo, Allegro con brie / P.D.Q. Bach ; Two rounds: Hedi McKinley, D'Indy's Turkey / Peter Schickele ; Two P.D.Q. Bach rounds: The Mule, O serpent / P.D.Q. Bach ; Two songs: If love is real, Cyndi / Peter Schickele ; Songs from Shakespeare: Macbeth's soliloquy, Hamlet's soliloquy, The three witches from Macbeth, Juliet's soliloquy, Funeral oration from "Julius Caesar" / Peter Schickele ; Listen here, Tyrannosaurus Rex / Peter Schickele. 670 The Jekyll & Hyde tour, 2007. I just don’t see the purpose of such differentiation, especially for the second case, which lacks a collective title. OK, I’ll confess that I don’t understand the difference between an aggregate work and a compilation, but whatever the FRBR niceties of that involve, I would be happy with Works. Selections applying to all three of these collections. I do understand that these records were created by a library that was one of the early adopters of RDA and they might represent experiments that demonstrate the capabilities of RDA to differentiate such resources. In our catalog we have three such P.D.Q. aggregates, the first cited above, plus The dreaded P.D.Q. Bach collection and The ill-conceived P.D.Q. Bach anthology. Obviously the latter two would qualify for name-title records as well, but we will keep them under Works. Selections. Chuck Herrold This email message and any files transmitted with it are intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law.� Any use, distribution, copying or disclosure by anyone other than the intended individual or entity is prohibited without prior approval.� If you have received this information in error, please notify the sender immediately.