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Dear Elisabeth, I have had the person who posted the original survey requests send me the full list of recipients. Your name was on the list. This morning I sent the full ISOJAC list a link to the survey, in case someone was missed who should have received it. Here is the full list of those on the original list. I note that one or two people are listed twice--this would have been because they were on the individual lists of recommended recipients, in addition to being on the ISOJAC list. Original List: Steven Bird <[log in to unmask]>, Doug Whalen <[log in to unmask]>, Chris Cieri <[log in to unmask]>, Laura Welcher <[log in to unmask]>, Anthony Aristar <[log in to unmask]>, Brian MacWhinney <[log in to unmask]>, Francois Demay <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], Sue Ellen Wright <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], Serge Gladkoff <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask], Hans Fenstermacher <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], Loic Dufresne de Virel <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask] Combined Subsequent Lists: [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask] [log in to unmask] [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask] [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], Corine Deliot <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask] Melinda Lyons Secretary, JAC ISO 639 On Wed, 9 Oct 2013 10:29:51 +0200 Elisabeth Porteneuve <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >Dear Sebastian, > > > Therefore a questionnaire has been > > set up and filled in by several users in the last weeks. > >Gérard informed me in the mid of September, that he added my name to the list of people to answer the survey - but I did not receive anything. >Would you mind, please, confirm that I am on the list, and re-post me the questionnaire? >It that list of people who was asked to fill the questionaire available? > >Thank you very much in advance, >Elisabeth Porteneuve > > >Le 09/10/2013 10:07, Sebastian Drude a écrit : >> Dear David, >> >> Indeed, in comparison with the task of rethinking and possibly newly >> setting up the different parts of ISO 639, questions of individual codes >> are minor. >> >> But the larger tasks are also being worked on -- we had fruitful >> discussions in Pretoria, an ad-hoc working group has been set up, and as >> one first task we identified that we would need a better understanding >> of the actual application of ISO codes and of the needs and concerns of >> the different communities of users. Therefore a questionnaire has been >> set up and filled in by several users in the last weeks. Christian >> Galinski can certainly send you more information about the next planned >> steps if you for some reason failed to receive the updates on this >> matters in the last months. Are there other people on this list who are >> not aware of the current developments but should be? >> >> In the meantime, the usual business has to go on, even if it is just >> rearranging chairs -- and I would certainly not compare ISO 639 with the >> Titanic, at least not after its close encounter with the iceberg. >> >> Best, >> >> Sebastian Drude >> >> I ask for your understanding if, in the interest of being quick and >> short, this mail may not fulfil all your expectations on form and >> politeness. >> >> -- >> >> PD Dr. Sebastian Drude, The Language Archive >> >> Max-Planck-Institute for Psycholinguistics >> >> P.O. Box 310, 6500 AH Nijmegen, The Netherlands >> >> Email: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> – Phone: >> (+31) 24-3521.470 >> >> http://www.mpi.nl/people/drude-sebastian >> >> *From:*ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee [mailto:[log in to unmask]] >> *On Behalf Of *David Dalby >> *Sent:* 09 October 2013 09:05 >> *To:* [log in to unmask] >> *Subject:* Re: letter from Elisabeth Porteneuve dated 26 September 2013 >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> Elisabeth's letter of 26 September has drawn attention to the >> fundamental need to define clearly the practical purpose(s) and >> scientific principles of ISO 639. To my knowledge, her letter has so far >> been ignored in the current shared discussions of ISOJAC. >> >> In fact, after a polite pause of 10 days, technical discussion has now >> been resumed on how to code the (numerous) ancient and medieval >> varieties of one specific language. Given the current international, >> political, practical, cultural and even religious issues involved in the >> international standardisation and application of language-codes today, >> this focusing of scholarly attention on the minutiæ of historical forms >> of Greek might perhaps be compared to the image of "rearranging >> deckchairs on the Titanic". >> >> It would appear that many of the problems of clarity of principle and >> purpose and of increasing complexity of practice within ISO 639 >> originate from the "alignment" of (1) the original ISO 639 system of >> 2-letter identifying tags (covering a limited number of written >> languages, especially for specifying the sources of technical and >> scientific terms) with (2) the MARC system of 3-letter identifying tags >> (potentially covering all of the many thousands of named spoken and >> written "languages" in the world, extant or extinct, especially for the >> computerised indexing of bilbliographical sources). >> >> After 15 years of this alignment, is it not now appropriate for our JAC >> to review this "joint" enterprise, and to reflect on whether it would be >> appropriate at least to discuss the possible separation of an >> (independent ISO) system of 2-letter codes for specific "written >> languages" (to be defined) and a (MARC + SIL) system of 3-letter codes >> to cover an open list of all known named "languages", present and past ? >> >> If he were still alive, what opinion on this question might be expressed >> by Eugen Wüster ? >> >> With warm greetings to all >> >> David (Dalby) >> >> ----- Forwarded Message ----- >> *From:*Elisabeth Porteneuve <[log in to unmask] >> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >> *To:* [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >> *Sent:* Thursday, 26 September 2013, 23:51 >> *Subject:* Re: Combinatorial analysis regarding visual association >> between a reference name of alanguage and possible ISO 639 code >> elements for the representation of this language name >> >> >> Mark, >> >> I happen to be trilingual, Polish, French and English, with fair >> capability to read and write Russian Cyrillic. >> >> When after the split of former Yugoslavia in 1991, I saw the split of >> the Serbo - Croatian language code into pieces I could not believe my >> eyes, so stupid and harmful it was for the entire country, and for >> everyone. The people in former Yugoslavia speak Southern Slavic, the >> name of that country means Yugo – South, Slavia – Slavic country. >> >> I happen to be involved in building up networks in those old days. >> After >> the Berlin Wall failed down on November 9th, 1989, in July 1990 we did >> connect Poland to EARN/Bitnet, followed up by an enormous wave of >> connecting all Europeans, with the help of their diasporas from >> communist era, on both sides of Atlantic Ocean. While the email was >> simple text at that time, and the most of connected were research and >> university people, in 1990 you could easily ask question and get >> correct >> answer about language used in former Yugoslavia. In 1991 the Internet >> Society, a formal network of people, started to function. >> >> Why you, the ISO 639, you didn’t inquire about language there? Why you, >> the ISO 639, you did start to allocate language codes for pieces of >> former Yugoslavia territory, and started years of nonsense, worst, >> years >> of troubles nobody needs? >> Slovenian, Croatian, Serbian – it did happen that Montenegrin is the >> last one in that split, and now, with all others who received their ISO >> 639 language codes, there is no more available one for them? Why? >> Why do >> you change your own rule in the middle of road? >> >> The ISO 639 shall be clearly related to the public interest, a place >> where scientists, or scholars, or engineers are doing a general purpose >> activity. In a domain of languages no single human being has a practice >> of speaking multiple languages going beyond very few, therefore some >> safeguards should be inherent to that work, such as duty of seeking >> input of concerned, alive, linguistic group before a code is >> assigned to >> that group (to ensure that an alpha-3 or an alpha-2 codes have not an >> offending meaning for a group in their local language, or to ensure >> that >> one given language is not split up into many by whatever political of >> geographical considerations). >> >> I wonder how rules related to the ISO 639 are set, but I trust that due >> to the participation of national standardization agencies or Federal >> entity in the case of the US, a care is taken to focus on public >> interest, with an obligation of modesty of our knowledge, transparency >> and adaptability. >> >> Errare humanum est perseverare diabolicum. >> >> Best, >> Elisabeth Porteneuve >> >> >> Le 26/09/2013 10:08, Mark Davis ☕ a écrit : >> > This is a long and convoluted thread, but I have a couple of brief comments. >> > >> > 1. It is a terrible idea to have a code for Montenegrin. Any in-depth >> > discussion with people from that area of the world reveals that the >> > differences between Serbian and Montenegrin are on the order of dialect >> > differences, not languages. The differences are comparable to those you see >> > across English or Spanish, and no more different than one encounters >> > between different parts of Serbia itself. >> > >> > Secondly, there is already a well-recognized language subtag (BCP47) for >> > Montenegrin: sr-ME. Introducing an equivalent to that will simply bring >> > another opportunity for software breakage, nothing more. So in the >> > interests of stability, no new code for Montenegrin should be added. (This >> > is also a dangerous path for the committee to follow; departing from the >> > pragmatic principles that have governed the assignment codes—especially >> > those affecting stability—will cause downstream clients to find other >> > solutions.) >> > >> > 2. While the formal title is "Codes for the representation of names of >> > languages", that is, *and always has been*, recognized as a misnomer. It is >> > and always has been codes for languages, not their names. (Otherwise, each >> > alternate name for each language would have required a different code, >> > which has never been the case.) >> > >> > 2. The visual association between a three letter code and a language is of >> > little importance. These codes are simply internal identifiers. While it is >> > useful to try to maintain some sort of association, it is in the end, not >> > particularly significant. >> > >> > >> > >> > Mark <https://plus.google.com/114199149796022210033> >> > * >> > * >> > *— Il meglio è l’inimico del bene —* >> > ** >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 11:20 PM, ISO639-3 <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >> > >> >> Dear Gerard et al., >> >> >> >> The one thing no one has mentioned in your discussion is a problem of >> >> phonology: most of the codes that are pronounceable, and that comprise the >> >> first letters of a language name are already taken. Also, because of >> >> phonological frequency of these segments, languages beginning in "B" "K" >> >> and "M" have few available codes (10 total available for these 3 initial >> >> letters). >> >> >> >> In addition, few of the codes for the 11 languages of interest to Mr. Lang >> >> have been blocked for use by national languages, but others are not. >> >> >> >> I have a function on my system which can query available codes, should you >> >> need it in the future. >> >> >> >> Melinda >> >> >> >> On Mon, 23 Sep 2013 19:11:41 +0200 >> >> Gérard Lang-Marconnet <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Le 23 sept. 2013 à 18:10, Gérard Lang-Marconnet a écrit : >> >>> >> >>>> Dear John, >> >>>> I am following your request and relaying our exchanges to the JAC >> >> Listserv. >> >>>> By the way, I would be most happy (and maybe some others would also be) >> >> to have the exact list of the persons on the list that receive the messages >> >> we exchange. >> >>>> Bien amicalement. >> >>>> Gérard Lang >> >>>> Le 23 sept. 2013 à 16:43, Gérard Lang-Marconnet a écrit : >> >>>> >> >>>>> OK for me. >> >>>>> Gérard Lang >> >>>>> Le 23 sept. 2013 à 16:35, Zagas, John a écrit : >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> I kindly ask you all: Please post these to the JAC Listserv. I do >> >> not see the reason why this discussion is being restricted to us four. I >> >> will start posting these messages to the listserv if I continue to be cc'd >> >> on these. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Thank you very much. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> John Zagas >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Library of Congress >> >>>>>> Network Development & MARC Standards Office >> >>>>>> 101 Independence Ave., S.E. >> >>>>>> Washington, DC 20540-4402 >> >>>>>> USA >> >>>>>> Phone: 202.707.1153 >> >>>>>> FAX: 202.707.0115 >> >>>>>> E-Mail:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> From: Gérard Lang-Marconnet [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>] >> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 10:32 AM >> >>>>>> To: Sebastian Drude >> >>>>>> Cc: Galinski Christian; Zagas, John; Lang Gérard >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Combinatorial analysis regarding visual association >> >> between a reference name of alanguage and possible ISO 639 code elements >> >> for the representation of this language name >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Dear Sebastian, >> >>>>>> If we suppose that every interesting language can be named; and >> >> better can be attributed at least one autonym, one name in english and also >> >> one name in french to allow identification without too much ambiguity; then >> >> we have no problem with the standard's title "Codes for the representation >> >> of the names of languages". And clearly the codes elements are representing >> >> a reference name for the underlying language. This does not at all allow >> >> that many names for the same language will have distinct entries in ISO >> >> 639, this only says that when new ISO 639 entry is identified by some array >> >> of names for this language, the code element to be attributed is >> >> representing the reference language name choosen in this array. Let me also >> >> add that it seems much more easy to know what is a language name that to >> >> know what is a language. For example, "Serbo-Croatian" is certainly a name >> >> of language , but there was clearly no unanimity to introduce an alpha-3 >> >> code element making an ISO 639-2 ! >> >> entry for >> >>> this name of language when this would have been legally mandatory because >> >> there existed an alpha-2 code element "sr" that was an ISO 639-1 entry from >> >> the beginning. If we would want a single code point for each language, >> >> independant of the different or same names of these languages, we would >> >> have to turn to a numeric coding scheme. >> >>>>>> As a statistician, I would say that this is what makes a nomenclature >> >> richer than a classification. >> >>>>>> When building a classification, you make hierarchical aggregations of >> >> elements of the domain you are studying and use classes, so that at each >> >> level of the hierarchy all classes cover the total domain with a void >> >> intersection between two distinct classes. Building a nomenclature from a >> >> classification is using the resources of terminology to give each class of >> >> each level a distinguishing identifying name allowing to immediately >> >> recognize what elements can be affected to this class. >> >>>>>> Bien amicalement. >> >>>>>> Gérard Lang >> >>>>>> Le 23 sept. 2013 à 15:42, Sebastian Drude a écrit : >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Thanks for the explanations of the mathematical calculus, Gerard. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> As for the name of the standard, codes for names of languages; this >> >> always has struck me as inadequate. >> >>>>>> In my perhaps naïve point of view, it is obvious that the codes refer >> >> to the languages themselves, and that they are normalized additional >> >> “names” for them, instead of referring to other names. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Otherwise, we would not give different ISO code points for two >> >> languages who share one English(?) name. >> >>>>>> Likewise, with good reasons we do not hand out different codes for >> >> languages that happen to have several alternative names (which holds for >> >> almost all languages). >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> To have a single code point for each LANGUAGE, independent of the >> >> different or same names of these languages, seems to me to be the very >> >> point of ISO 639. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Best, >> >>>>>> Sebastian (Drude) >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I ask for your understanding if, in the interest of being quick and >> >> short, this mail may not fulfil all requirements on form and politeness. >> >>>>>> -- >> >>>>>> PD Dr. Sebastian Drude, The Language Archive >> >>>>>> Max-Planck-Institute for Psycholinguistics >> >>>>>> P.O. Box 310, 6500 AH Nijmegen, The Netherlands >> >>>>>> Email:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> – Phone: >> (+31) 24-3521.470 >> >>>>>>http://www.mpi.nl/people/drude-sebastian >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> From: Gérard Lang-Marconnet [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>] >> >>>>>> Sent: Samstag, 14. September 2013 16:28 >> >>>>>> To: Gérard Lang-Marconnet >> >>>>>> Cc: Sebastian Drude; Galinski Christian; Zagas John >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Combinatorial analysis regarding visual association >> >> between a reference name of alanguage and possible ISO 639 code elements >> >> for the representation of this language name >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Please excuse my mistake. >> >>>>>> Evidently 3.N.N.(N-26) must be replaced by 3.N.N.(26-N). >> >>>>>> Gérard Lang >> >>>>>> Le 14 sept. 2013 à 15:46, Gérard Lang-Marconnet a écrit : >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Dear Sebastian, >> >>>>>> The subject and the meaning of this combinatorial exercise is as >> >> follows. >> >>>>>> Considering a reference language name whose script in the latin >> >> alphabet uses exactly N distinct letters (for example "english" uses 7 >> >> distinct letters), let us say that a three-letter code element written with >> >> the 26 letters of the latin alphabet has a "strong visual association" with >> >> this language name if every one of the three letters in the code element is >> >> a letter taken in the language name (we do not look only for >> >> "abbreviations", so that we do not ask the order of the occurences of the >> >> letters in the code element to be the same that in the language name and we >> >> allow the same letter to occur two or three times in the code element even >> >> in the case that there is only one occurence in the reference language >> >> name. There are exactly N.N.N such code elements having a strong visual >> >> association with a reference language name written with N letters. >> >>>>>> Now, in the case that no such code element is available, or judged >> >> correct as a representation of this name of language, let us consider that >> >> we have a "moderately interesting visual association" in the case that only >> >> two of the three letters composing the code element occur in the considered >> >> language name, so that the third one will have no occurence in the language >> >> name. There are exactly 3.N.N.(N-26) such code elements having a >> >> moderately interesting visual association with the considered language >> >> name. It is only in the case that no such code element is available or >> >> judged correct that we can claim that it is absolutely not possible to >> >> choose a code element having an interesting visual association to represent >> >> the reference name we choose for the considered language. >> >>>>>> I hope this explanation will satisfy your question. >> >>>>>> And in my opinion, this is giving a partial answer to Christian's >> >> paragraph. Let me also remind you that the very title of ISO 639 is "Codes >> >> for the representation of names of languages", so that as a principle the >> >> ISO 639 code elements are considered as representing not directly languages >> >> (whose socio-political status, or many others characteristics, may change) >> >> but names for these languages. >> >>>>>> Bien cordialement. >> >>>>>> Gérard Lang >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Le 14 sept. 2013 à 12:29, Sebastian Drude a écrit : >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Dear Gérard, >> >>>>>> Although I consider myself quite strong in mathematics and logics, I >> >> cannot make any sense whatsoever of the formula P(N)=N.N.N + 3.N.N.(26-N). >> >>>>>> If the exercise is to arrive at the number of combinations of three >> >> different from 26 letters, one just would calculate “N * (N-1) * (N-2)”, >> >> right? (First letter any of the 26, second any other than the first, third >> >> one any other than the first and the second.) >> >>>>>> But as far as I know there is no rule that states that all three >> >> letters have to be different. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> So what is the intention / rule of finding all “interesting” >> >> combinations behind your formula? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> And, more importantly, why would this settle that Christian is wrong >> >> with the second part of his mail, or answer to this part of Christian`s >> >> mail at all: >> >>>>>> “To this we can add today that we should find better rules in >> >> selecting language identifiers/symbols so that they are not necessarily be >> >> considered as abbreviations. >> >>>>>> Needless to say that languages change (in terms of linguistic norm, >> >> user distribution and language status) and also the socio-political status >> >> of language names may change – so we will increasingly run into problems in >> >> the coding of language names, if they are based on abbreviation.” >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Sorry if I am slow in following your thinking, but I fear there are >> >> many implicit presuppositions that many may take for granted and which I do >> >> now know. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Cordially, >> >>>>>> Sebastian >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I ask for your understanding if, in the interest of being quick and >> >> short, this mail may not fulfil all requirements on form and politeness. >> >>>>>> -- >> >>>>>> PD Dr. Sebastian Drude, The Language Archive >> >>>>>> Max-Planck-Institute for Psycholinguistics >> >>>>>> P.O. Box 310, 6500 AH Nijmegen, The Netherlands >> >>>>>> Email:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> – Phone: >> (+31) 24-3521.470 >> >>>>>>http://www.mpi.nl/people/drude-sebastian >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> From: Gérard Lang-Marconnet [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>] >> >>>>>> Sent: Freitag, 13. September 2013 19:02 >> >>>>>> To: Galinski Christian; Sebastian Drude; Zagas John; Lang Gérard >> >>>>>> Subject: Fwd: Conbinatorial analysis//Re: AW: AW: Alpha-3 ISO 639 >> >> reserved code elements/// New JAC ballot on the n ame of language mont >> >> énégri n/Montenegrin >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> The appropriate message, one more time. >> >>>>>> Gérard Lang >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Début du message réexpédié : >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> De : Gérard Lang-Marconnet <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >> >>>>>> Date : 19 novembre 2012 16:20:56 HNEC >> >>>>>> À : Lang Gérard <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >> >>>>>> Objet : Réexp : Conbinatorial analysis//Re: AW: AW: Alpha-3 ISO 639 >> >> reserved code elements/// New JAC ballot on the n ame of language mont >> >> énégri n/Montenegrin >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Début du message réexpédié : >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> De : Gérard Lang-Marconnet <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >> >>>>>> Date : 1 novembre 2012 18:35:42 HNEC >> >>>>>> À : ISO JAC Voting Member List <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>, Guenther >> >> Rebecca <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>, Lang Gérard >> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >> >>>>>> Objet : Réexp : Conbinatorial analysis//Re: AW: AW: Alpha-3 ISO 639 >> >> reserved code elements/// New JAC ballot on the n ame of language mont >> >> énégri n/Montenegrin >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Début du message réexpédié : >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> De : Gérard Lang-Marconnet <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >> >>>>>> Date : 26 août 2012 10:49:59 HAEC >> >>>>>> À : Budin Gerhard <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>, >> Lang Gérard < >> >>[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >> >>>>>> Cc : Peter Constable <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>, ISO639-3 >> Melinda < >> >>[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >> >>>>>> Objet : Conbinatorial analysis//Re: AW: AW: Alpha-3 ISO 639 reserved >> >> code elements/// New JAC ballot on the n ame of language mont énégri >> >> n/Montenegrin >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Dear Gerhard, >> >>>>>> Thank you for your message. >> >>>>>> In fact, my combinatorial analysis was not fully complete (it is well >> >> known that combinatorial analysis is a subtle matter !), so that the true >> >> results are a little better that the ones I gave in my previous message. >> >>>>>> There is a more general and more direct approach, as follows. >> >>>>>> For a basic word built with N distinct roman letters (N being an >> >> integer number between 1 and 26), we have: >> >>>>>> -N.N.N (the cube of N) code element with all three letters taken >> >> among the N letters of the basic considered word; >> >>>>>> -and 3.N.N.(26-N) code elements with two of the three letters taken >> >> among the N lettres of the basic word and the third letter taken among the >> >> (26-N) others roman letters. >> >>>>>> So that the number of interesting possibilities for a word having N >> >> distinct roman letters is: P(N)=N.N.N + 3.N.N.(26-N)= N.N(N + 3(26-N))= >> >> N.N(78-2.N). >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> The corresponding P(N) numbers (for N varying from 1 to 10) are: >> >>>>>> N=1 N.N=1 78-2=76 P(N)= 76 >> >>>>>> N=2 N.N=4 78-4=74 P(N)= 296 >> >>>>>> N=3 N.N=9 78-6=72 P(N)= 648 >> >>>>>> N=4 N.N=16 78-8=70 P(N)=1120 >> >>>>>> N=5 N.N=25 78-10=68 P(N)=1700 >> >>>>>> N=6 N.N=36 78-12=66 P(N)=2376 >> >>>>>> N=7 N.N=49 78-14=64 P(N)=3136 >> >>>>>> N=8 N.N=64 78-16=62 P(N)=3968 >> >>>>>> N=9 N.N=81 78-18=60 P(N)=4860 >> >>>>>> N=10 N.N=100 78-20=58 P(N)=5800 >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Bien amicalement. >> >>>>>> Gérard Lang >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Le 26 août 2012 à 02:23, Budin Gerhard a écrit : >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> dear Gérard, >> >>>>>> thank you for your thoughtful and interesting message, I enjoyed >> >> reading about the combinatorial background. >> >>>>>> regards >> >>>>>> Gerhard >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Univ.-Prof. Dr. Gerhard Budin >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Centre for Translation Studies >> >>>>>> University of Vienna >> >>>>>> Gymnasiumstraße 50 >> >>>>>> A-1190 Vienna, Austria >> >>>>>> E-Mail:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >> >>>>>> T: +43 1 4277 58020 >> >>>>>> F: +43 1 4277 9580 >> >>>>>> M: +43 664 60277 58020 >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Institute for Corpus Linguistics and Text Technology >> >>>>>> Austrian Academy of Sciences >> >>>>>> Sonnenfelsgasse 19/8 >> >>>>>> A-1010 Vienna, Austria >> >>>>>> E-Mail:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >> >>>>>> T: +43 1 51581 2300 (Secretary) >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> ________________________________________ >> >>>>>> Von: Gérard Lang-Marconnet [[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>] >> >>>>>> Gesendet: Samstag, 25. August 2012 10:51 >> >>>>>> An: Budin Gerhard; Lang Gérard >> >>>>>> Cc: Peter Constable; ISO639-3 Melinda >> >>>>>> Betreff: Re: AW: Alpha-3 ISO 639 reserved code elements/// New JAC >> >> ballot on the n ame of language mont énégri n/Montenegrin >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Dear All, >> >>>>>> Thank you for agreeing "me" and "onm". >> >>>>>> While I globally agree with Gerhard's message, I do not see the >> >> situation as pessismistic as him and Peter. Sure, as long as the code >> >> element for the name of language "english" is not something like "wzx" or >> >> an alpha-3 code element build with a strong visual association with say the >> >> romanized version of the russian translation of the word "english" written >> >> with he cyrillic alphabet or that the code element "spa" is clearly build >> >> with the three third letters of the english translation of the autonym of >> >> the considered name of language, there is strictly no hope to convince >> >> people that this is plain hazard. >> >>>>>> It is more simple, honest and convincing to publicly admit that the >> >> initial plan was really to have a strong visual association between the >> >> names of languages and the alpha-2 and alpha-3 code elements choosen to >> >> represent them and build upon the (if necessary romanized) autonym or the >> >> english or the french linguistic version of this name. And so is it >> >> explicitely written in the normative texts of ISO 639:1988, ISO 639-2:1998, >> >> ISO 639-1:2002 (and also ISO 639-5:2008 ?), and so is it in fact evidently >> >> done in ISO 639-1, ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-5, and so for maybe all most >> >> written and spoken languages of the world. >> >>>>>> Problems came with ISO 639-3 and its title "Alpha-3 code for a >> >> comprehensive coverage of languages", supposed to build a code "that aims >> >> to define three letters identifiers for all known human languages"; I voted >> >> against the choice of this title because i found it unusefully pompous and >> >> also dangerous (as the creation of "Europanto" immediately proved). With >> >> only 17576 possible identifiers for around 7800 names of languages, it was >> >> clearly becoming a challenge to maintain a strong a visual association >> >> between code elements and names of languages. But this was nevertheless the >> >> case that there was a (maybe not so strong as before) visual association in >> >> a vast majority of cases in the initial (not published within the standard) >> >> version of ISO 639-3. So, it is now a veritable provocation to explain to >> >> people coming now to ask for the creation of a new entry within ISO 639-3 >> >> that they have strictly no chance to get a visual association (having >> >> mnemonic virtues) between the! >> >> choosen >> >>> code element and the name of "their" language. >> >>>>>> First, there is a choice for the base word to be represented between >> >> the autonym, french or english vesion that gives some commodity. After that >> >> saying a visual association does not say systematically take the three >> >> first letters of the base word, or even have all three letters of the code >> >> elements within the set of letters building the base word. What is at least >> >> wanted to have a chance of visual association is that at least two of the >> >> three letters of the code element are among the set of letters of the base >> >> word; this is certainly not a strong association, but it is far better than >> >> no association art all. And it is clearly not always possible to find such >> >> a solution. But people would find it far more respectful of their language >> >> and culture if we clearly and honestly admitted that the rule is as I >> >> propose (or something clear like that), and that every effort will be mad >> >> before choosing a code element having strictly no visual association with >> >> the name of language. I ! >> >> would add >> >>> that every choice has cultural, historic, politic and psychological >> >> connections that cannot be underestimed. I will give the recent following >> >> exemple from ISO 3166-1: When admitted as a new UN member state, South >> >> Sudan was to be a new entry and asked for the alpha-2 code element "SS"; >> >> some members of the Maintenance Agency (and notably our german colleague) >> >> were not happy with this request. But South Sudan maintained his choice >> >> that was approved after I remarked that we had previously attributed to >> >> Saudi Arabia the code element "SA" that was as bad as "SS". >> >>>>>> Finally, as a mathematician, I would say that the law of >> >> combinatorics are not as bad as you seem to think. Let's take the example >> >> of the base word "english", taken as the autonym of the considered name of >> >> language; this word has seven, all distincts, roman letters, so that the >> >> number of alpha-3 code elements having two of this seven letters as first >> >> letters is 7.6.25=1 050. It is not sure that one of these 1 050 >> >> combinations is still free, but the chances are not so bad ! And if this is >> >> not sufficient, we can look for code elements whose second and third >> >> letter, but not the first one, are among the seven letters: this gives us a >> >> new set of posibilities, all distincts of the previous ones, and there are >> >> 19.7.9=798 such possible choices. And, if we are now looking for code >> >> elements whose first and third letter, but not the second one, are among >> >> the seven letters, this still gives us a new set of possibilities all >> >> distinct of the previous ones, and there also are 7.19.6! >> >> =798. >> >>>>>> This gives us a set of 1 050+ 798 + 798= 2 646 possible alpha-3 code >> >> elements having a (maybe not so good !) visual association with the word >> >> "english" ! >> >>>>>> The chances that the intersection of this set of alpha-3 code >> >> elements (that represents 2 646/ 17576= 0.150 5 of the total possibilities) >> >> with the remaining free set of alpha-3 code elements (that represent say 17 >> >> 576 - 7800/ 17 576= 0.556 2 of the total possibilities) be void are not so >> >> big ! >> >>>>>> Bien cordialement. >> >>>>>> Gérard Lang >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Le 25 août 2012 à 07:26, Budin Gerhard a écrit : >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> dear all, >> >>>>>> so then let's go for onm for Montenegrin and prepare the dossier and >> >> the JAC vote. >> >>>>>> We have been trying desperately in the past and will have to continue >> >> to do so to explain to the interested public at large and to particular >> >> language communities concerned when assigning a code element to "their" >> >> language that given the laws of combinatorics it is simply impossible to >> >> always comply with their wishes to have highly mnemonic code for their >> >> language, when such a desirable code element(s) had already been assigned >> >> to another language or languages long time ago. When going through all our >> >> language code elements, it becomes clear that quite a number of languages >> >> must already to with code elements that are not or almost not mnemonic. Of >> >> course we have always tried to be "as mnemonic as possible" in choosing new >> >> elements, such as in the present case. >> >>>>>> regards >> >>>>>> Gerhard >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Univ.-Prof. Dr. Gerhard Budin >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Centre for Translation Studies >> >>>>>> University of Vienna >> >>>>>> Gymnasiumstraße 50 >> >>>>>> A-1190 Vienna, Austria >> >>>>>> E-Mail:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >> >>>>>> T: +43 1 4277 58020 >> >>>>>> F: +43 1 4277 9580 >> >>>>>> M: +43 664 60277 58020 >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Institute for Corpus Linguistics and Text Technology >> >>>>>> Austrian Academy of Sciences >> >>>>>> Sonnenfelsgasse 19/8 >> >>>>>> A-1010 Vienna, Austria >> >>>>>> E-Mail:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >> >>>>>> T: +43 1 51581 2300 (Secretary) >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> ________________________________________ >> >>>>>> Von: Peter Constable [[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>] >> >>>>>> Gesendet: Samstag, 25. August 2012 01:29 >> >>>>>> An: Gérard Lang-Marconnet; ISO639-3 Melinda >> >>>>>> Cc: Budin Gerhard >> >>>>>> Betreff: RE: Alpha-3 ISO 639 reserved code elements/// New JAC ballot >> >> on the n ame of language mont énégri n/Montenegrin >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I'd like to understand _why_ it would be useful to reserve a code >> >> element for Montenegrin. I'm more interested in that than in the choice of >> >> code element. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> If a code element _were_ assigned / reserved for Montenegrin, I have >> >> no objection to Gérard's choice, "onm". >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Peter >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > >>