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and nobody seems to have acknowledged Andrew Dapuzzo's post which I found enlightning. Any comments? On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:17 AM, Andrew Dapuzzo <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > I worked for a company that managed the archive for UMG in Europe. When I > approached UMG in the US I was told the archiving business was not > available because the LOC offered to provide the service for free in > exchange for allowing them to use, under very strict rules, some of the > content. While I love the people I work with at UMG I am confident they > did not offer the LOC something out of generosity. I don't know if the LOC > approached other labels with this deal but I would imagine it would be hard > to turn down. UMG was shopping the service at the time because of the fire > you mentioned earlier. > > Andrew > > > On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 2:38 AM, David Seubert <[log in to unmask] > >wrote: > > > Tom, > > > > With all due respect to your expertise in the tape era, in the pre-tape > > era the preservation situation is much more dire. There will never be a > day > > when we have pristine transfers from metal parts for many pre-tape era > > recordings. The metal parts just don't exist. Columbia (now Sony) > > supposedly has the largest archive of metal parts around, but most of the > > other archives of metal parts are gone due to war, neglect, or > > incompetence, and the only surviving copies are now the shellac > pressings. > > Most shellac recordings exist in quantity in public and private > > collections, but it is still important to save original pressings. At > UCSB > > we sift though thousands of shellac pressing a year, archiving anything > > that isn't already in our collection for discographic evidence and for > > preservation and public access. > > > > UCSB also has extensive correspondence between William R. Moran and staff > > at Columbia documenting the destruction of their metal parts in the 50s > as > > a group of collectors covertly tried to save some of the recordings. I > > won't judge the management decisions of Columbia at the time, but the > facts > > are the facts, and they destroyed much of their archive, as did most > > labels. Preservation of shellac is nothing like the tape era, where the > > vast majority exist on a better media somewhere. For many early labels, > > shellac is the archival medium now, and to discount recordings of "lesser > > artistic merit" is to fall into the same trap the Columbia management in > > the 50s fell into, saving the classical metal parts but not the rest. > > > > And for clarification, Sony hasn't donated anything to LC that I'm aware > > of. UMG did donate the Decca metal parts to LC, but that's only because > in > > the previous year their LA warehouse burned down consuming over 100,000 > > master tapes in the fire. Perhaps the combination of guilt and the > > potential tax benefits of a donation finally got to them? > > > > David Seubert > > > > On Dec 3, 2013, at 4:55 PM, Tom Fine wrote: > > > > > Hi David: > > > > > > Still haven't fixed that reply-to setting, but anyway ... > > > > > > I would advise your daughter to ask Salvation Army or Goodwill or > > whatever is the Canadian equivilent to take them away and handle the > > collector chaos. A cherry-picking mahem session goes in the class of > "don't > > try this at home"! Maybe sweeten the deal by promising the store that you > > will alert the collector lists with which you communicate, so they won't > be > > stuck with hundreds of pounds of records that no one will ever buy. > Perhaps > > there is a thrift store nearby affiliated with some worthy charity in > your > > local community, so your good deed will directly benefit some of those > who > > live near your daughter (and thus, indirectly, improve her quality of > life > > under the theory of social-good ripple effects). Maybe you and your > > daughter could reach out now, while you're still in good shape, and see > > which if any thrift stores might be interested. In the least, it will be > > educational because you can gauge the interest within easy transport > > distance. > > > > > > From a larger perspective, I wonder if the day will come when shellac > of > > anything with a surviving metal or laquer master will be totally > worthless. > > I note the Sony and UMG donations (with many strings attached) to the > LOC. > > So what if the ideal day comes, when all those metal parts and lacquers > > have been cleaned and excellent transfers were made and the > high-resolution > > digital files are easily accessible in the public domain? At the point, > why > > would anyone want an old shellac pressing, which in theory should sound > > terrible compared to the digital transfer from the metal or laquer > parts? I > > realize that many shellac-era records no longer have metal parts or > > spotless lacquers, but what about those that do? In theory, that would > free > > up a lot of bulk-storage space for both collectors and archives, and > those > > who accumulate the worthless shellacs would be more object-grabbers than > > collectors. Regarding the concept of archiving and cultural legacy, I > don't > > see this as any different from having a good-condition master tape but no > > remaining copies of the LP. Or having multiple managed data farms full of > > the bits and bytes that used to live on fragile U-Matic 1630 tapes or > DATs. > > > > > > -- Tom Fine > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "DAVID BURNHAM" < > [log in to unmask]> > > > To: <[log in to unmask]> > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 6:09 PM > > > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr > > > > > > > > >> Well this is my dilemma too. I remember the thrill I've felt many > times > > as I've found treasure after treasure in Goodwill stores and their kind > but > > if my daughter just threw open the door and invited collectors to come > and > > cherry pick through the collection, they would leave her with total > chaos - > > it would probably look like there were more records when they were > finished > > that when they started. > > >> > > >> db > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On , DAVID BURNHAM <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > >> > > >> My problem is that I have 10s of thousands of records - most from the > > CBC record library whose 78s I acquired a couple of years ago and I have > no > > idea which are considered rare collectors' items. There are lots of jazz > > and country records in this collection which might have some commercial > > value and others that have none. Now it's just me and my daughter left > and > > I've told her some organizations to contact when I'm gone, (including > > ARSC), but have impressed her with the reality that most of the records > are > > probably of no value and that she'll probably have to pay someone to > remove > > them. There are, of course, many which I value highly but that's no > > reflection of their market value. > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> db > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 5:51:20 PM, John Haley < > > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> My apologies to you, David Seubert, in my negative comments about > > donating > > >>>> to schools. You are the rare enlightened individual at an > enlightened > > >>>> institution that understands the value of collections and truly > > cares. I > > >>>> know lots of anecdotes about terrible consequences when collections > > have > > >>>> been donated to schools. A good example is the donation of Fritz > > Reiner's > > >>>> papers and score collection (and the funding that went with it) to > > Columbia > > >>>> University, where the materials promptly disappeared from view, with > > the > > >>>> money used for other purposes in complete violation of the terms of > > the > > >>>> gift. This situation is well discussed in the final chapter of > Philip > > >>>> Hart's good Reiner biography. As the schools know, years after the > > gift > > >>>> there is no one around who is likely to challenge their violation of > > the > > >>>> terms of the gift, and there's all that cash just sitting there, and > > >> the > > >>>> burning need for funding for the hot, trendy project-of-the-month. > > >>>> > > >>>> Best, > > >>>> John Haley > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Tom Fine < > [log in to unmask] > > >wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> Hi Cary, David, Mike Gray, etc: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> The more we talk about this, I think this topic is important enough > > for an > > >>>>> article or on-going series of briefs in the ARSC Journal. Maybe > > something > > >>>>> akin to the copyright-law briefs. Estate law changes all the time, > > which is > > >>>>> why I think a one-shot article may not be as useful. However, an > > article > > >>>>> could cover issues from the collector perspective (how to figure > out > > what > > >>>>> to donate and what to leave out as flotsum and jetsum; how to find > a > > >>>>> willing recipient; how to bring family members or friends into the > > process; > > >>>>> how to deal with an estate attorney > > >> probably not expert in your collection; > > >>>>> etc). It's also probably worth discussing, the differences between > a > > true > > >>>>> collection (which I would argue is something that has been curated > > by a > > >>>>> collector with expertise in the subject area, is somewhat focused > and > > >>>>> contains at least some rare/valuable items in excellent condition) > > vs an > > >>>>> accumulation (which is self-described but what, in my experience, > > many call > > >>>>> a "collection"). > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I wish I knew more about the legal issues and the institutional > > >>>>> perspectives on the topics we're raising. It would definitely help > > my own > > >>>>> planning, and I think it would be a great service to ARSC members, > > in some > > >>>>> cases more than justifying membership. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> -- Tom Fine > > >>>>> > > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Seubert" < > > >>>>> [log in to unmask]> > > >>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]> > > >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 3:56 PM > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Hi Cary, > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I agree that this would be an important session. I think that > > somebody > > >>>>>> from an institution on the curatorial side should be on the panel, > > but I > > >>>>>> also think somebody from an institutional major gifts office > should > > be on > > >>>>>> the panel. Perhaps UNC has somebody on staff that could appear? > Our > > >>>>>> position is vacant now, but typically our person is a lawyer who > can > > >>>>>> actually help donors write bequest language and weigh tax > benefits. > > There > > >>>>>> can be significant tax benefits to donors that I don't think are > > well > > >>>>>> understood. > > >> My example is that a dealer might pay ten cents on the dollar > > >>>>>> for a collection (and probably cherry pick), while a tax deduction > > would > > >>>>>> net a donor 20 cents on the dollar if the donor is in a 20% tax > > bracket. > > >>>>>> That's real money, not just good will. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I also think a dealer and a collector should be on the panel > though > > I'm > > >>>>>> not sure who would be willing. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> This is more common than some probably realize. David Lennick also > > lost > > >>>>>> much of his collection two years ago in a "storage wars" type > > situation. I > > >>>>>> think all the 78s found homes, but I think his master tapes got > > sold for > > >>>>>> the scrap value of the flanges. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> If I can help in any way, let me know. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> David > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> -- > > >>>>>> David Seubert > > >>>>>> Head, Special Collections (Acting) > > >>>>>> UC Santa Barbara > > >> Library > > >>>>>> University of California > > >>>>>> Santa Barbara, CA 93106-9010 > > >>>>>> Tel: 805-893-5444 > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List > > >>>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cary Ginell > > >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 7:18 AM > > >>>>>> To: [log in to unmask] > > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> My wife knows the value of my collection, both historical as well > as > > >>>>>> intrinsic, but we are torn as to whether to auction or donate, and > > if the > > >>>>>> latter, to whom and when? It would be a shame to find oneself in > Mr. > > >>>>>> Barr's situation where desperation often invites > > >> wholesale dumping just to > > >>>>>> get rid of it all. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> This subject needs to be addressed in a panel discussion at the > > next ARSC > > >>>>>> conference. If anyone would like to form a panel and draft a > > proposal, it > > >>>>>> would be welcomed. I'm program chair for the 2014 conference and > > believe > > >>>>>> that this is a major concern for all ARSC members and should be > > discussed. > > >>>>>> Who would like to take up the challenge? The deadline for > submitting > > >>>>>> proposals is fast approached (January 6). > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Cary Ginell > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> On Dec 3, 2013, at 7:07 AM, John Haley <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> It's a real issue, and we should all mark Tom's words. I have > bought > > >>>>>>> collections and particpated in clean-outs for relatives and > others, > > >>>>>>> and > > >> believe me, the real enemy of the great collection is the > > >>>>>>> dumpster. That is where a lot of them go. My goal is to skinny > down > > >>>>>>> what I have while I am alive, and then leave some kind of list or > > >>>>>>> markings of what is really valuable. To the non-collectors in our > > >>>>>>> families who have tolerated our collections for years, it is > > usually all > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> junk to be got rid of. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Best, > > >>>>>>> John Haley > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 9:07 AM, eugene hayhoe < > > [log in to unmask]> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> I, when I walk into my basement, feel like 'what a lucky guy.' My > > >>>>>>>> wife, OTOH, goes 'OMG!' and mostly won't even > > >> come down here. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> The concern I have is finding the spot where 'she gets the most > > >>>>>>>> value' and 'the recordings, etc. end up in the right places' > meet > > - > > >>>>>>>> most dealers have personal financial interests, and the moving > > 'would > > >>>>>>>> not be a quick, casual job.' I've suggested more than once that > > she > > >>>>>>>> 'hire someone to open a temporary store' as the best way to > > >>>>>>>> liquidate, but she doesn't display much enthusiasm, despite the > > quite > > >>>>>>>> profitable nature of that idea. One friend could be interested > in > > >>>>>>>> some, but has his own space issues of the same nature. As a > > retired > > >>>>>>>> college faculty member, I wouldn't trust much of any school to > > 'use > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> them appropriately.' > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> I've also told her that 'if Koester is > > >> still around when that time > > >>>>>>>> comes, he'd probably be interested.' > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> And in NO way is that a dis; only spoke to him once, but 'have > > been > > >>>>>>>> appreciating his efforts in preserving American music for over > 45 > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> years.' > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Gene > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------- > > >>>>>>>> On Tue, 12/3/13, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr > > >>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask] > > >>>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, December 3, > > >> 2013, 8:03 AM > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> One lesson that can be learned is > > >>>>>>>> that we who collect should explore, while we are healthy, vital > > and > > >>>>>>>> with full faculties, who might want to inherit our collections. > Is > > >>>>>>>> there an institution or archive we trust, and is interested? > > Another > > >>>>>>>> collector? Would we like to pre-arrange an auction with an > expert > > in > > >>>>>>>> the topic areas where we focus our collection? Don't assume > > spouses > > >>>>>>>> or children or friends know or care about your collection, > unless > > you > > >>>>>>>> have included them in it and they have expressed interest. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Having inherited a few collections of records and vintage audio > > gear, > > >>>>>>>> I will say that it is never an easy process because of the bulk, > > >>>>>>>> logistics, storage and other > > >> issues. > > >>>>>>>> There is always expense and time-burden put on the person taking > > over > > >>>>>>>> the collection, so make sure that person wants the collection > > enough > > >>>>>>>> to put in the time and put up the money. In my case, it helped > > very > > >>>>>>>> much in the cases where the collection was well-documented. It > > also > > >>>>>>>> helped that two of the collections had been introduced to me > > >>>>>>>> gradually, with detailed explaination from the original owners. > In > > >>>>>>>> fact I treasure those times, with people I respected and cared > for > > >>>>>>>> explaining something they loved and about which they knew a > great > > >>>>>>>> deal, more than I treasure the actual items. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> In the other cases, it was "hey I know you like this kind of > stuff > > >>>>>>>> and we need to clean out XX's house so we can sell it, if you'll > > >> come > > >>>>>>>> and take it away you can have it." In those cases, I was much > more > > >>>>>>>> likely to sell off pieces in order to cover my logistics and > > storage > > >>>>>>>> expenses, very soon after taking possession. I do not regret any > > of > > >>>>>>>> those sales, because some very nice items passed into hands that > > >>>>>>>> appreciate and use them today. In these cases, I have passed > back > > all > > >>>>>>>> other sales proceeds to the people generous enough to call me > > rather > > >>>>>>>> than put stuff in the dumpster or turn it over to an estate-sale > > hack > > >>>>>>>> to get pennies on the dollar of the true values. Net-net, I > ended > > up > > >>>>>>>> keeping fewer items from these collections, but it's nice to > have > > >>>>>>>> those things. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> The final case I've been involved in was my friend, 10 years my > > >>>>>>>> junior, who > > >> died suddenly earlier this year. His father needed help > > >>>>>>>> assessing his house-full of audio gear, tapes and records, and > > >>>>>>>> finding buyers for what had monetary value and takers for the > > rest. > > >>>>>>>> We managed to get 90% of it sold and given away, and the rest > > really > > >>>>>>>> was dumpster junk. I bought some equipment items, which I am > > happy to > > >>>>>>>> have, and his father gave me his records and tapes, which I am > > very > > >>>>>>>> pleased to have and will remind me of my good friend gone too > > soon. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> The point of this is, if you care about what happens to your > > >>>>>>>> collection when you're gone, you need to be proactive. The best > > time > > >>>>>>>> to be proactive is when you have the energy and the presence of > > mind > > >>>>>>>> to do it, ie not at the very end. You can't take it with you, > and > > >> you > > >>>>>>>> must assume that no one else values it and nothing good will > > happen > > >>>>>>>> to it unless you make preparations and enlist allies who will > > outlive > > >>>>>>>> you. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> -- Tom Fine > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "eugene hayhoe" > > >>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask] > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]> > > >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 7:26 AM > > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> All that work collecting and organizing for naught? A > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> shame. > > >> Hope they ended up with 'someone who appreciates what they > > >>>>>>>> have.' > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------- > > >>>>>>>>> On Mon, 12/2/13, Dave Burnham <[log in to unmask]> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] steven barr > > >>>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask] > > >>>>>>>>> Date: Monday, December 2, 2013, 9:00 PM > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> David Lennick is your best bet, > > >>>>>>>>> however I'm not sure he has the info either. I > > >> don't > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> think > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> there is an e-mail address because the reason he > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> stopped > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> posting on 78L was because he didn't have a computer. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> He may > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> well be out of reach. I understand his records have > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> been > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> liquidated to cover debts owing. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> db > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> On Dec 2, 2013, at 8:43 PM, David Seubert > > >>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Anybody heard from Steve Barr lately and have a > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> current > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> contact email? The > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> email I have for him bounces. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Thanks, > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> David > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >