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See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war! I had never heard the
"toothpaste" metaphor either, but it's a great, visceral image!

Compression is a tool used all the time on radio. In fact radio may be a
prime driver of the trend.

Steve

Steve Greene
Audiovisual Archivist
Office of Presidential Libraries
National Archives and Records Administration
(301) 837-1772


On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Smith, Allison <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> I am fascinated by this toothpaste discussion.  I've never heard that term
> before!  I tried googling "toothpaste and sound mastering" to get some
> further info, but only found a few very minor discussions (and a lot of
> information about toothpaste in general).
>
> Would someone please explain this to the group - or, send a link that
> does?  Thanks!
>
> This is purely for my own interest...
>
> Allison
>
> ***********************************************************
> Allison A. Smith
> Archivist, Wisconsin Public Radio
> 821 University Avenue, Suite 7151
> Madison, WI   53706-1497
> P (608) 263-8806
> F (608) 263-9763
> [log in to unmask]
> It's not true I had nothing on, I had the radio on - Marilyn Monroe
>
> ***********************************************************
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tom Fine
> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 05:57 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resoluti on FLAC
> audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech New s and Analysis
>
> The worst example of toothpasting ever was the last Metallica album (which
> still won a Grammy for album art and was nominated for heavy metal
> categories -- nice message about quality from the Grammy folks). The RMS
> average level on that CD is -3dBfs and it's totally clipped. It's so
> over-loud that it clips the analog stage of most playback systems, clipping
> an already clipped waveform. And when it's crunched to a lossy format, it
> clips further because of all the digital overs created by the crunching
> math and psycho-acoustic EQ stuff. Even sometimes hearing damaged metal
> fans hate the sound of that album. Music-wise, while it's not up to
> Metallica's prime standards, it was their best album in years and could
> have stood as a very powerful last stand against age and changing
> music/culture trends. But it sounds so bad, I don't think it will be
> remembered as something as good as the music.
>
> The mastering guys tell me that the biggest problem with the toothpasted
> stuff is that it's often delivered to them like that. Once a digital file
> has been committed to toothpasting, especially if it's done track by track,
> it can't be undone. Even if the toothpaste commitment came in the mixing,
> it's still an expensive and time-consuming endeavor to go back and remix it
> with civilized dynamics.
> The same is true with analog recordings, of course, and toothpasting was
> not invented in the DAW world (nor in rock music -- see Buddy Rich's 1970s
> Groove Merchant albums as an example of super-compressed jazz production).
>
> As I've said before, the thing that amazes me about toothpasting is that
> the drummers -- usually the tough guys in the band -- let the guitarists
> win and come out louder. Toothpasting hurts electric guitars the least and
> drums the most.
>
> -- Tom Fine
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Shai Drori" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 6:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resoluti on FLAC
> audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech New s and Analysis
>
>
> >I actually had a client not pay me about a year ago for a mastering job
> >because it wasn't touthpasted. They went and redid it with another
> >engineer who did. And they had the audacity
> >(Spelling?) to use my mixes without paying for them.
> > Shai
> > בתאריך 11/03/14 12:18 PM, ציטוט Tom Fine:
> >> Yes. I lump them with record company hacks.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Cham" <[log in to unmask]>
> >> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 10:19 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resoluti on
> >> FLAC audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech New s and Analysis
> >>
> >>
> >>> Let's not forget the producers in this. Back when I was very active
> >>> in recording, they were the main proponents of louder is better.
> >>>
> >>> Bob Cham
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Apple, because it's Apple, hates FLAC and refuses to allow it in
> >>>> iTunes. Meanwhile, Sony is belatedly putting on a big push for
> >>>> native DSD, including a hardware/marketing push. So it's likely to
> >>>> be muddled, SACD vs DVD-A all over again. That said, anything to
> >>>> promote higher-quality downloads is a Good Thing in my book. I
> >>>> include in that Mastered for iTunes, but note that the vast
> >>>> majority of material sold on iTunes was not well mastered or well
> converted to the lossy format. Newer stuff, if it carries the Mastered for
> iTunes certification is better.
> >>>>
> >>>> On another front, I'm seeing slight signs of progress against
> >>>> terrible-sounding toothpaste MAKE IT LOUDER mastering. Just the
> >>>> fact that the high-rez downloads places are demanding reasonable
> >>>> dynamics is trickling down to the CD mastering. I've now heard
> >>>> enough tales of woe from mastering engineers -- "The Artist Made Me
> >>>> Do It" or "The Record Company Suit Made Me Do It" -- that I tend to
> believe them, that Make It Louder is completely the fault of tin-eared
> artists and record company hacks. But that doesn't make the results sound
> any better!
> >>>>
> >>>> --Tom Fine
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Stamps"
> >>>> <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:20 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resolution
> >>>> FLAC audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech News and
> >>>> Analysis
> >>>>
> >>>>> I hope all the players update their software so FLAC will play on
> >>>>> everything, but unfortunately it's not possible since many players
> >>>>> (both software and hardware) sold and/or distributed in the past
> cannot be updated.
> >>>>> Tim
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Mar 10, 2014, at 4:42 PM, Steve Greene wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> http://gigaom.com/2014/03/10/neil-young-wants-to-take-high-resolu
> >>>>>> tion-flac-audio-recordings-mainstream-with-pono/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Stay tuned...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Curious as to what kind of mass-market penetration you can make
> >>>>>> at that price-point. Is the audiophile market alone enough?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Steve
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> !DSPAM:639,531e5abb44331637612606!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Cheers
> > Shai Drori
> > Timeless Recordings
> > [log in to unmask]
> > בברכה,
> > שי דרורי
> > מומחה לשימור והמרה של אודיו וידאו וסרטים 8-35 ממ.
> >
> >
>