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Worst broadcast example I can think of is baseball on AM radio. They are
now compressed to the point that the background noise: crowd noises,
sirens, the PA all meld into a wall of rumble just under the the levels of
the announcers. Thankfully, I can usually get games on FM now.

Steve Greene
Audiovisual Archivist
Office of Presidential Libraries
National Archives and Records Administration
(301) 837-1772


On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Mark Shakarjian <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

> The link doesn't explain much. Would wiki take it down??
>
> Mark
>
>
> Sent from a device you don't need to know about
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> On Mar 11, 2014, at 8:32 AM, "Smith, Allison" <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi -
> >
> > Thanks a lot for the link.
> >
> > Regarding the Radio/Compression comment - that is sad.  However, WPR
> doesn't broadcast compressed material if we can help it.  We only broadcast
> compressed files that are not produced by us, and are sent to us that way.
>  Then, we have no choice.
> >
> > Our audio engineers are aware of the difference for the listener.
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > ***********************************************************
> > Allison A. Smith
> > Archivist, Wisconsin Public Radio
> > 821 University Avenue, Suite 7151
> > Madison, WI   53706-1497
> > P (608) 263-8806
> > F (608) 263-9763
> > [log in to unmask]
> > It's not true I had nothing on, I had the radio on - Marilyn Monroe
> >
> > ***********************************************************
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steve Greene
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 09:42 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Toothpaste
> >
> > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war! I had never heard the
> "toothpaste" metaphor either, but it's a great, visceral image!
> >
> > Compression is a tool used all the time on radio. In fact radio may be a
> prime driver of the trend.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > Steve Greene
> > Audiovisual Archivist
> > Office of Presidential Libraries
> > National Archives and Records Administration
> > (301) 837-1772
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Smith, Allison <[log in to unmask]
> >wrote:
> >
> >> I am fascinated by this toothpaste discussion.  I've never heard that
> >> term before!  I tried googling "toothpaste and sound mastering" to get
> >> some further info, but only found a few very minor discussions (and a
> >> lot of information about toothpaste in general).
> >>
> >> Would someone please explain this to the group - or, send a link that
> >> does?  Thanks!
> >>
> >> This is purely for my own interest...
> >>
> >> Allison
> >>
> >> ***********************************************************
> >> Allison A. Smith
> >> Archivist, Wisconsin Public Radio
> >> 821 University Avenue, Suite 7151
> >> Madison, WI   53706-1497
> >> P (608) 263-8806
> >> F (608) 263-9763
> >> [log in to unmask]
> >> It's not true I had nothing on, I had the radio on - Marilyn Monroe
> >>
> >> ***********************************************************
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:
> >> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tom Fine
> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 05:57 AM
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resoluti on
> >> FLAC audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech New s and Analysis
> >>
> >> The worst example of toothpasting ever was the last Metallica album
> >> (which still won a Grammy for album art and was nominated for heavy
> >> metal categories -- nice message about quality from the Grammy folks).
> >> The RMS average level on that CD is -3dBfs and it's totally clipped.
> >> It's so over-loud that it clips the analog stage of most playback
> >> systems, clipping an already clipped waveform. And when it's crunched
> >> to a lossy format, it clips further because of all the digital overs
> >> created by the crunching math and psycho-acoustic EQ stuff. Even
> >> sometimes hearing damaged metal fans hate the sound of that album.
> >> Music-wise, while it's not up to Metallica's prime standards, it was
> >> their best album in years and could have stood as a very powerful last
> >> stand against age and changing music/culture trends. But it sounds so
> >> bad, I don't think it will be remembered as something as good as the
> music.
> >>
> >> The mastering guys tell me that the biggest problem with the
> >> toothpasted stuff is that it's often delivered to them like that. Once
> >> a digital file has been committed to toothpasting, especially if it's
> >> done track by track, it can't be undone. Even if the toothpaste
> >> commitment came in the mixing, it's still an expensive and
> >> time-consuming endeavor to go back and remix it with civilized dynamics.
> >> The same is true with analog recordings, of course, and toothpasting
> >> was not invented in the DAW world (nor in rock music -- see Buddy
> >> Rich's 1970s Groove Merchant albums as an example of super-compressed
> jazz production).
> >>
> >> As I've said before, the thing that amazes me about toothpasting is
> >> that the drummers -- usually the tough guys in the band -- let the
> >> guitarists win and come out louder. Toothpasting hurts electric
> >> guitars the least and drums the most.
> >>
> >> -- Tom Fine
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Shai Drori" <[log in to unmask]>
> >> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 6:35 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resoluti on
> >> FLAC audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech New s and Analysis
> >>
> >>
> >>> I actually had a client not pay me about a year ago for a mastering
> >>> job because it wasn't touthpasted. They went and redid it with
> >>> another engineer who did. And they had the audacity
> >>> (Spelling?) to use my mixes without paying for them.
> >>> Shai
> >>> בתאריך 11/03/14 12:18 PM, ציטוט Tom Fine:
> >>>> Yes. I lump them with record company hacks.
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Cham" <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 10:19 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resoluti on
> >>>> FLAC audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech New s and
> >>>> Analysis
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Let's not forget the producers in this. Back when I was very
> >>>>> active in recording, they were the main proponents of louder is
> better.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Bob Cham
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Apple, because it's Apple, hates FLAC and refuses to allow it in
> >>>>>> iTunes. Meanwhile, Sony is belatedly putting on a big push for
> >>>>>> native DSD, including a hardware/marketing push. So it's likely
> >>>>>> to be muddled, SACD vs DVD-A all over again. That said, anything
> >>>>>> to promote higher-quality downloads is a Good Thing in my book. I
> >>>>>> include in that Mastered for iTunes, but note that the vast
> >>>>>> majority of material sold on iTunes was not well mastered or well
> >> converted to the lossy format. Newer stuff, if it carries the Mastered
> >> for iTunes certification is better.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On another front, I'm seeing slight signs of progress against
> >>>>>> terrible-sounding toothpaste MAKE IT LOUDER mastering. Just the
> >>>>>> fact that the high-rez downloads places are demanding reasonable
> >>>>>> dynamics is trickling down to the CD mastering. I've now heard
> >>>>>> enough tales of woe from mastering engineers -- "The Artist Made
> >>>>>> Me Do It" or "The Record Company Suit Made Me Do It" -- that I
> >>>>>> tend to
> >> believe them, that Make It Louder is completely the fault of tin-eared
> >> artists and record company hacks. But that doesn't make the results
> >> sound any better!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --Tom Fine
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Stamps"
> >>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:20 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resolution
> >>>>>> FLAC audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech News and
> >>>>>> Analysis
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I hope all the players update their software so FLAC will play
> >>>>>>> on everything, but unfortunately it's not possible since many
> >>>>>>> players (both software and hardware) sold and/or distributed in
> >>>>>>> the past
> >> cannot be updated.
> >>>>>>> Tim
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2014, at 4:42 PM, Steve Greene wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> http://gigaom.com/2014/03/10/neil-young-wants-to-take-high-reso
> >>>>>>>> lu tion-flac-audio-recordings-mainstream-with-pono/
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Stay tuned...
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Curious as to what kind of mass-market penetration you can make
> >>>>>>>> at that price-point. Is the audiophile market alone enough?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Steve
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> !DSPAM:639,531e5abb44331637612606!
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Cheers
> >>> Shai Drori
> >>> Timeless Recordings
> >>> [log in to unmask]
> >>> בברכה,
> >>> שי דרורי
> >>> מומחה לשימור והמרה של אודיו וידאו וסרטים 8-35 ממ.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
>