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Worst broadcast example I can think of is baseball on AM radio. They are now compressed to the point that the background noise: crowd noises, sirens, the PA all meld into a wall of rumble just under the the levels of the announcers. Thankfully, I can usually get games on FM now. Steve Greene Audiovisual Archivist Office of Presidential Libraries National Archives and Records Administration (301) 837-1772 On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 12:09 PM, Mark Shakarjian <[log in to unmask]>wrote: > The link doesn't explain much. Would wiki take it down?? > > Mark > > > Sent from a device you don't need to know about > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Mar 11, 2014, at 8:32 AM, "Smith, Allison" <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > > Hi - > > > > Thanks a lot for the link. > > > > Regarding the Radio/Compression comment - that is sad. However, WPR > doesn't broadcast compressed material if we can help it. We only broadcast > compressed files that are not produced by us, and are sent to us that way. > Then, we have no choice. > > > > Our audio engineers are aware of the difference for the listener. > > > > Cheers! > > > > *********************************************************** > > Allison A. Smith > > Archivist, Wisconsin Public Radio > > 821 University Avenue, Suite 7151 > > Madison, WI 53706-1497 > > P (608) 263-8806 > > F (608) 263-9763 > > [log in to unmask] > > It's not true I had nothing on, I had the radio on - Marilyn Monroe > > > > *********************************************************** > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto: > [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steve Greene > > Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 09:42 AM > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Toothpaste > > > > See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war! I had never heard the > "toothpaste" metaphor either, but it's a great, visceral image! > > > > Compression is a tool used all the time on radio. In fact radio may be a > prime driver of the trend. > > > > Steve > > > > Steve Greene > > Audiovisual Archivist > > Office of Presidential Libraries > > National Archives and Records Administration > > (301) 837-1772 > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Smith, Allison <[log in to unmask] > >wrote: > > > >> I am fascinated by this toothpaste discussion. I've never heard that > >> term before! I tried googling "toothpaste and sound mastering" to get > >> some further info, but only found a few very minor discussions (and a > >> lot of information about toothpaste in general). > >> > >> Would someone please explain this to the group - or, send a link that > >> does? Thanks! > >> > >> This is purely for my own interest... > >> > >> Allison > >> > >> *********************************************************** > >> Allison A. Smith > >> Archivist, Wisconsin Public Radio > >> 821 University Avenue, Suite 7151 > >> Madison, WI 53706-1497 > >> P (608) 263-8806 > >> F (608) 263-9763 > >> [log in to unmask] > >> It's not true I had nothing on, I had the radio on - Marilyn Monroe > >> > >> *********************************************************** > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto: > >> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tom Fine > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 05:57 AM > >> To: [log in to unmask] > >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resoluti on > >> FLAC audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech New s and Analysis > >> > >> The worst example of toothpasting ever was the last Metallica album > >> (which still won a Grammy for album art and was nominated for heavy > >> metal categories -- nice message about quality from the Grammy folks). > >> The RMS average level on that CD is -3dBfs and it's totally clipped. > >> It's so over-loud that it clips the analog stage of most playback > >> systems, clipping an already clipped waveform. And when it's crunched > >> to a lossy format, it clips further because of all the digital overs > >> created by the crunching math and psycho-acoustic EQ stuff. Even > >> sometimes hearing damaged metal fans hate the sound of that album. > >> Music-wise, while it's not up to Metallica's prime standards, it was > >> their best album in years and could have stood as a very powerful last > >> stand against age and changing music/culture trends. But it sounds so > >> bad, I don't think it will be remembered as something as good as the > music. > >> > >> The mastering guys tell me that the biggest problem with the > >> toothpasted stuff is that it's often delivered to them like that. Once > >> a digital file has been committed to toothpasting, especially if it's > >> done track by track, it can't be undone. Even if the toothpaste > >> commitment came in the mixing, it's still an expensive and > >> time-consuming endeavor to go back and remix it with civilized dynamics. > >> The same is true with analog recordings, of course, and toothpasting > >> was not invented in the DAW world (nor in rock music -- see Buddy > >> Rich's 1970s Groove Merchant albums as an example of super-compressed > jazz production). > >> > >> As I've said before, the thing that amazes me about toothpasting is > >> that the drummers -- usually the tough guys in the band -- let the > >> guitarists win and come out louder. Toothpasting hurts electric > >> guitars the least and drums the most. > >> > >> -- Tom Fine > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Shai Drori" <[log in to unmask]> > >> To: <[log in to unmask]> > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 6:35 AM > >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resoluti on > >> FLAC audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech New s and Analysis > >> > >> > >>> I actually had a client not pay me about a year ago for a mastering > >>> job because it wasn't touthpasted. They went and redid it with > >>> another engineer who did. And they had the audacity > >>> (Spelling?) to use my mixes without paying for them. > >>> Shai > >>> בתאריך 11/03/14 12:18 PM, ציטוט Tom Fine: > >>>> Yes. I lump them with record company hacks. > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Cham" <[log in to unmask]> > >>>> To: <[log in to unmask]> > >>>> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 10:19 PM > >>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resoluti on > >>>> FLAC audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech New s and > >>>> Analysis > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Let's not forget the producers in this. Back when I was very > >>>>> active in recording, they were the main proponents of louder is > better. > >>>>> > >>>>> Bob Cham > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Apple, because it's Apple, hates FLAC and refuses to allow it in > >>>>>> iTunes. Meanwhile, Sony is belatedly putting on a big push for > >>>>>> native DSD, including a hardware/marketing push. So it's likely > >>>>>> to be muddled, SACD vs DVD-A all over again. That said, anything > >>>>>> to promote higher-quality downloads is a Good Thing in my book. I > >>>>>> include in that Mastered for iTunes, but note that the vast > >>>>>> majority of material sold on iTunes was not well mastered or well > >> converted to the lossy format. Newer stuff, if it carries the Mastered > >> for iTunes certification is better. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On another front, I'm seeing slight signs of progress against > >>>>>> terrible-sounding toothpaste MAKE IT LOUDER mastering. Just the > >>>>>> fact that the high-rez downloads places are demanding reasonable > >>>>>> dynamics is trickling down to the CD mastering. I've now heard > >>>>>> enough tales of woe from mastering engineers -- "The Artist Made > >>>>>> Me Do It" or "The Record Company Suit Made Me Do It" -- that I > >>>>>> tend to > >> believe them, that Make It Louder is completely the fault of tin-eared > >> artists and record company hacks. But that doesn't make the results > >> sound any better! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> --Tom Fine > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Stamps" > >>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> > >>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]> > >>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:20 PM > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Neil Young wants to take h igh-resolution > >>>>>> FLAC audio recordings mainstrea m with Pono - Tech News and > >>>>>> Analysis > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> I hope all the players update their software so FLAC will play > >>>>>>> on everything, but unfortunately it's not possible since many > >>>>>>> players (both software and hardware) sold and/or distributed in > >>>>>>> the past > >> cannot be updated. > >>>>>>> Tim > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Mar 10, 2014, at 4:42 PM, Steve Greene wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> http://gigaom.com/2014/03/10/neil-young-wants-to-take-high-reso > >>>>>>>> lu tion-flac-audio-recordings-mainstream-with-pono/ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Stay tuned... > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Curious as to what kind of mass-market penetration you can make > >>>>>>>> at that price-point. Is the audiophile market alone enough? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Steve > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> !DSPAM:639,531e5abb44331637612606! > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Cheers > >>> Shai Drori > >>> Timeless Recordings > >>> [log in to unmask] > >>> בברכה, > >>> שי דרורי > >>> מומחה לשימור והמרה של אודיו וידאו וסרטים 8-35 ממ. > >>> > >>> > >> >