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Part of the point of my post was that we need to do some thinking on this
subject of fictitious entities, animals, spirits, etc.  So I completely
agree with you, Stephen.

One problem is that responding to the principle of the convenience of the
user is that the user's convenience is rarely without self-contradictions.
 We need to get our categories straight in order to make the data useful
even though our users may not have the same need for consistency.  The
categories that may be appropriate for some entities will likely not be
appropriate for all of the possible individuals who might receive an X00
heading of some type (or whatever it becomes post-MARC).

Larry
-- 
Laurence S. Creider
Head, Archives and Special Collections Dept.
University Library
New Mexico State University
Las Cruces, NM  88003
Work: 575-646-4756
Fax: 575-646-7477
[log in to unmask]

On Wed, May 14, 2014 12:28 pm, Stephen Hearn wrote:
> Reluctantly letting some air out of this party balloon--I do have some
> concerns with RDA deciding to treat a range of entities as persons without
> fully considering whether the attributes defined by RDA for persons really
> fits well with these other entities (spirits, fictitious persons, animals,
> pseudonymous entities), and whether these entities may have important
> attributes which should be recorded but which are not part of the current
> attribute set. There's room for some RDA development work here, or at
> least
> for guidelines about how to apply the attributes we have.
>
> Stephen
>
>
> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 1:12 PM, Laurence S. Creider
> <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>
>> At one point in time, our gifts form included a required field for phone
>> number.  Some gifts came from deceased donors, and I had a hard time
>> explaining that I did not know their area code, let alone their phone
>> numbers.  I suppose that e-mails would just go to the ether, so to
>> speak.
>>
>> By definition spirits would not have an address, even if they did have a
>> "haunt."  If the spirit is the spirit of a human individual and presumed
>> to have been connected to a body at some point, then there would be a
>> birthplace and date of birth.  Otherwise not.  No death date in either
>> case.  The question of gender and occupation would depend on the
>> religious
>> tenets involved (which are likely to be somewhat less than orthodox
>> anything and could be those of the one recording the information or
>> those
>> attributed to the spirit).  Could one call Beethoven, Ludwig van,
>> 1770-1827 (Spirit), a decomposer?
>>
>> I must say that I like Richard Moore's suggestion of linking the spirit
>> to
>> the name of the individual reporting the work of the spirit.
>> "Channeled,"
>> may not be appropriate in all cases, however.
>>
>>
>>
>> Larry
>> --
>> Laurence S. Creider
>> Head, Archives and Special Collections Dept.
>> University Library
>> New Mexico State University
>> Las Cruces, NM  88003
>> Work: 575-646-4756
>> Fax: 575-646-7477
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
>> On Wed, May 14, 2014 10:40 am, Stephen Hearn wrote:
>> > What attribute information would be appropriate to record when
>> describing
>> > the spirit of a person? Does a spirit have a birthplace? occupation?
>> > gender? current address?
>> >
>> > Stephen
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Matthew C. Haugen <
>> > [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I suppose it depends on your theological disposition whether dates of
>> >> biological birth and death correspond with dates of incarnation and
>> >> disembodiment of the spirit. Leaving that aside, we could also or
>> >> instead
>> >> record the spirit's presumably later dates of activity in 046 $s
>> and/or
>> >> $t,
>> >> if known, perhaps based on the dates of activity of
>> mediums/channelers,
>> >> or
>> >> beginning at the date of death of the person.
>> >>
>> >> I can't think of any case in which a person's spirit is held to be
>> >> channeled by another while still alive or before birth, but maybe
>> this
>> >> could be claimed in cases of reincarnation, astral projection,
>> >> out-of-body,
>> >> near-death, trances, hallucinogenic, etc. experiences.
>> >>
>> >> In any case, dates of activity of the spirit could overlap or not
>> with
>> >> the
>> >> dates of birth of the person, and either way is probably the more
>> useful
>> >> data.
>> >>
>> >> Matthew
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 10:02 AM, Moore, Richard
>> >> <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>  Hello Ben
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> “Do we need a relator term "spirit of" to connect the ARs?”
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Possibly, although the connection should be apparent from the name,
>> and
>> >>> we might appear to suggest more than we want to.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I think it would be useful to link the name of the spirit to the
>> name
>> >>> of
>> >>> the medium who actually wrote the work…  “Chaneller” and
>> >>> “Channelled by”
>> >>> (with the obligatory transatlantic discussion about spelling).
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Regards
>> >>>
>> >>> Richard
>> >>>
>> >>> _________________________
>> >>>
>> >>> Richard Moore
>> >>>
>> >>> Authority Control Team Manager
>> >>>
>> >>> The British Library
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Tel.: +44 (0)1937 546806
>> >>>
>> >>> E-mail: [log in to unmask]
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:
>> >>> [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Benjamin A Abrahamse
>> >>> *Sent:* 14 May 2014 14:12
>> >>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [PCCLIST] Dates for Spirits
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I certainly agree the 046 is nonsensical.  Who can say if spirits
>> have
>> >>> biographical (thanatographical?) data.  (Perhaps someone should pour
>> >>> out
>> >>> two long glasses brimmed with muscatel on All Soul's Night and ask.)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> So it would be this weird case where you need to include the 100 $d
>> to
>> >>> make it clear this is the spirit of the John Smith who was born in
>> 1790
>> >>> and
>> >>> died in 1856, but no accompanying 046. (This is what the second
>> example
>> >>> in
>> >>> 9.19.1.2.5 would suggest.)  Do we need a relator term "spirit of" to
>> >>> connect the ARs?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --Ben
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Benjamin Abrahamse
>> >>>
>> >>> Cataloging Coordinator
>> >>>
>> >>> Acquisitions and Discovery Enhancement
>> >>>
>> >>> MIT Libraries
>> >>>
>> >>> 617-253-7137
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> *From:* Program for Cooperative Cataloging [
>> >>> mailto:[log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>] *On
>> Behalf
>> >>> Of *Moore, Richard
>> >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 14, 2014 7:12 AM
>> >>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>> >>> *Subject:* [PCCLIST] Dates for Spirits
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Would people agree that it would be incorrect to record, in 046 of a
>> >>> NAR
>> >>> for a spirit, the dates of the deceased person whose spirit is being
>> >>> described?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> For (hypothetical) example:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> 046 $a $f 1790 $g 1856
>> >>>
>> >>> 1001 $a Smith, John, $d 1790-1856
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> is correct, because these dates of birth and death are attributes of
>> >>> the
>> >>> entity “John Smith”, whose authority record this is. John Smith
>> was
>> >>> born in
>> >>> 1790 and died in 1856.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> However:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> 046 $a $f 1790 $g 1856
>> >>>
>> >>> 1001 $a Smith, John, $d 1790-1856 $c (Spirit)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> is wrong, because these dates and birth are not attributes of the
>> >>> entity
>> >>> “John Smith (Spirit)” whose authority record this is. The spirit
>> >>> did not
>> >>> have dates of birth and death, and must also (purportedly) still
>> have
>> >>> existed when the work was channelled. The whole point of the spirit
>> of
>> >>> a
>> >>> deceased person (as a bibliographic entity) is that it is still
>> around
>> >>> after the person has died, to write things through a medium….
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Regards
>> >>>
>> >>> Richard
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _________________________
>> >>>
>> >>> Richard Moore
>> >>>
>> >>> Authority Control Team Manager
>> >>>
>> >>> The British Library
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Tel.: +44 (0)1937 546806
>> >>>
>> >>> E-mail: [log in to unmask]
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> ******************************************************************************************************************
>> >>>
>> >>> Experience the British Library online at www.bl.uk
>> >>>
>> >>> The British Library’s latest Annual Report and Accounts :
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>> >>>
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>> >>> Think before you print
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>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> ******************************************************************************************************************
>> >>> Experience the British Library online at www.bl.uk
>> >>>  The British Library’s latest Annual Report and Accounts :
>> >>> www.bl.uk/aboutus/annrep/index.html
>> >>>  Help the British Library conserve the world's knowledge. Adopt a
>> Book.
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>> >>> are
>> >>> not the intended recipient, please delete this e-mail and notify the
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>> >>>
>> >>> Think before you print
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Matthew C. Haugen
>> >> Rare Book Cataloger
>> >> 102 Butler Library
>> >> Columbia University Libraries
>> >> E-mail: [log in to unmask]
>> >>
>> >> Phone: 212-851-2451
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Stephen Hearn, Metadata Strategist
>> > Technical Services, University Libraries
>> > University of Minnesota
>> > 160 Wilson Library
>> > 309 19th Avenue South
>> > Minneapolis, MN 55455
>> > Ph: 612-625-2328
>> > Fx: 612-625-3428
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Stephen Hearn, Metadata Strategist
> Technical Services, University Libraries
> University of Minnesota
> 160 Wilson Library
> 309 19th Avenue South
> Minneapolis, MN 55455
> Ph: 612-625-2328
> Fx: 612-625-3428
>