Comments in line....

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bibliographic Framework Transition Initiative Forum
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karen Coyle
> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 2:04 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [BIBFRAME] Proposal to handle "Providers" differently
> Kevin,
> Removing these layers between the subject and the description would
> simplify use of the data, IMO. In particular, anyplace where one can NOT use
> a blank node there is a gain in ease of use.
> Unfortunately, this is possible input from the AACRs and RDA:
> 260
> ##$aParis :$bGauthier-Villars ;$aChicago :$bUniversity of Chicago
> Press,$c1955.
> e.g. Paris : Gauthier-Villars; Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 1955.

 Yeah, I knew this would come up pretty quick.

> That could logically be expressed as two separate publication statements (I
> assume the current display form harks back to limited space on cards):
> Paris : Gauthier-Villars, 1955.
> Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 1955.
> As simple triples, though, there is nothing to retain the connection between
> the individual places and the publishers since there is no order inherent
> between triples.
> x bf:publisher "Gauther-Villars" .
> x bf:publisher "University of Chicago Press" .
> x bf:date "1955" .
> x bf:pubPlace "Chicago" .
> x bf:pubPlace "Paris" .

This is absolutely one way to handle this problem.  It's ambiguous no doubt, but I would hope the publicationStatement to capture the details "as they appear on the source of information," or whatever the phrase is.  The "publicationStatement" would provide the transcribed view while the above would be for data purposes only.

> (NB: this is not the only place in our data that repetition of data elements and
> the reliance on the order of elements creates difficulties. That is another
> reason to do some re-thinking of our data in light of new technologies.)
> We struggled with this when developing the RDF for RDA, and I don't think
> that there is (yet) a solution that works well in practice.

Agreed, but to some extent our options are limited and there may only be imperfect solutions.  I'm open to them all, however.

>  RDA retains the
> concept of "publisher statement" that is conceived of as a single multi-part
> description. Thus, in RDF the RDA "publisher statement" would be a node
> with place, publisher and date. The complex statement above could be two
> different nodes and that would solve the issue of connecting places and
> publishers (while relying on UI developers to provide the traditional display),
> but means creating a publisher node like the one BIBFRAME has today.
> Assigning those nodes identifiers doesn't really make them re-usable,
> though, as you point out.

All good points.


> Given that BIBFRAME has a property for the display form of the "publisher
> statement," it may come down to a question of purpose: apart from display,
> what do we anticipate doing with places and providers, and do those
> functions (e.g. search, linking to maps, creating timelines) require us to
> maintain the proper place/provider relationship when there is more than
> one?
> My 2 cents is that this is one of those areas where separating display from
> data could have some practical advantages. Your solution provides both.
> kc
> p.s. This gives me additional respect for the document + data method, which
> relies on the document for structure and display, and still surfaces useful
> data. See how WorldCat does this with -
> On 7/31/14, 9:50 AM, Ford, Kevin wrote:
> Dear All,
> Recording "Provider" information, such as who published, produced,
> manufactured, or distributed something, where that happened, and when, is
> presently modelled in such a way that a resource is devoted to this
> information.  An example:
> <> a bf:Instance,
>      bf:publication [
>          a bf:Provider ;
>          bf:providerDate "1966" ;
>          bf:providerName [ a bf:Organization ; bf:label "Hamlyn" ] ;
>          bf:providerPlace [ a bf:Place ; bf:label "London" ]
>      ] .
> In the above, the resource employs a blank node, but it would not need to.
> Regardless, this approach has a couple of significant problems:
> 1) Semantically, "providerDate" is unclear because it is actually supposed to
> convey the "publication date."  And the (publication) date, in fact, is an
> attribute of the Instance (the manifestation basically) and not the "Provider"
> resource. (And simply bf:provider would be better than bf:providerName,
> but that is a small point.)
> 2) It is not very reusable.  The above bf:Provider is only applicable to things
> published by Hamlyn in London in 1966.
> We'd like to explore simplifying how this information is handled in bibframe
> by eliminating the bf:Provider resource altogether and creating
> 12 properties, 3 each for publisher, manufacturer, distributor, and producer,
> all of which represent the major use cases as has long been expressible in
> MARC.  These properties would be associated directly with the Instance.  As
> an example, the above would become:
> <> a bf:Instance,
>      bf:publishedBy [ a bf:Organization ; bf:label "Hamlyn" ] ;
>      bf:publishedAt [ a bf:Place ; bf:label "London" ] ;
>      bf:publishedOn "1966" .
> You can imagine 3 each for manufactured*, distributed*, produced*.
> This would clarify the semantics and do away with a resource that would
> probably often be identified via a blank node because it is reusable in only
> fairly specific circumstances.  (The above solution does not preclude being
> able determine all the things published by Hamlyn in London in 1966, if that is
> of specific interest.)
> FYI: There has been no discussion whether bf:providerStatement would
> change in any way, and I see no reason for it to change (except, perhaps, to
> add publisherStatement, distributorStatement, etc. for clarity and parity
> purposes, versus the one catch-all providerStatement).
> bf:providerStatement is really designed to address the transcription aspect
> expected in RDA whereas the proposed properties are designed to capture
> more structured data.  It's an undesirable duplication, but it is what it is.
> Can anyone foresee issues with this approach?
> Yours,
> Kevin
> --
> Kevin Ford
> Network Development and MARC Standards Office Library of Congress
> Washington, DC
> --
> Karen Coyle
> [log in to unmask]
> m: 1-510-435-8234
> skype: kcoylenet