I think for our purposes transforming MARC, it might be best to assume that if you have only one date, you have only one Instance, and if you have 2 dates or two 260s, then you’re talking about two Instances.  Trying to divine more might be problematic.
I like Karen’s reliance on publisher statement to keep what’s on the piece, but adding the individual places and publishers just as individual points of data associated with the Instance.

Going forward, if there are 2 publishers and one date on the piece being cataloged, I guess it would be up to cataloging policy whether they want to treat them as 2 instances; BIBFRAME will allow you to record what youthink is going on.


Nate Trail
LA308, Mail Stop 4402
Library of Congress
Washington DC 20540

From: Bibliographic Framework Transition Initiative Forum [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Sanderson
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 3:01 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [BIBFRAME] Proposal to handle "Providers" differently

Hi Karen,

Is that one Instance with two publishers working together? Or is it two Instances, each with one publisher?
The latter is clearly not a problem, so I guess it's the former?

To try and break it down further... is this correct:

In the lifecycle of the Work, there was an Instance published.
There were agents involved in that publication event were University of Chicago Press and Gauther-Villars.
University of Chicago Press is in Chicago.
Gauther-Villars is in Paris.
The event occurred in 1955.

And thus we would need something like:

[ a bf:Instance
  bf:publicationEvent [ a bf:Event
    bf:agent [ a bf:Organization ; bf:label "University of Chicago Press" ; bf:place [ bf:label "Chicago" ] ]
    bf:agent [ a bf:Organization ; bf:label "Gauther-Villars ; bf:place [ bf:label "Paris" ] ]
    bf:date "1955"^xsd:date


On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 11:04 AM, Karen Coyle <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:

Removing these layers between the subject and the description would simplify use of the data, IMO. In particular, anyplace where one can NOT use a blank node there is a gain in ease of use.

Unfortunately, this is possible input from the AACRs and RDA:

##$aParis :$bGauthier-Villars ;$aChicago :$bUniversity of Chicago Press,$c1955.

e.g. Paris : Gauthier-Villars; Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 1955.

That could logically be expressed as two separate publication statements (I assume the current display form harks back to limited space on cards):

Paris : Gauthier-Villars, 1955.
Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 1955.

As simple triples, though, there is nothing to retain the connection between the individual places and the publishers since there is no order inherent between triples.

x bf:publisher "Gauther-Villars" .
x bf:publisher "University of Chicago Press" .
x bf:date "1955" .
x bf:pubPlace "Chicago" .
x bf:pubPlace "Paris" .

(NB: this is not the only place in our data that repetition of data elements and the reliance on the order of elements creates difficulties. That is another reason to do some re-thinking of our data in light of new technologies.)

We struggled with this when developing the RDF for RDA, and I don't think that there is (yet) a solution that works well in practice. RDA retains the concept of "publisher statement" that is conceived of as a single multi-part description. Thus, in RDF the RDA "publisher statement" would be a node with place, publisher and date. The complex statement above could be two different nodes and that would solve the issue of connecting places and publishers (while relying on UI developers to provide the traditional display), but means creating a publisher node like the one BIBFRAME has today. Assigning those nodes identifiers doesn't really make them re-usable, though, as you point out.

Given that BIBFRAME has a property for the display form of the "publisher statement," it may come down to a question of purpose: apart from display, what do we anticipate doing with places and providers, and do those functions (e.g. search, linking to maps, creating timelines) require us to maintain the proper place/provider relationship when there is more than one?

My 2 cents is that this is one of those areas where separating display from data could have some practical advantages. Your solution provides both.


p.s. This gives me additional respect for the document + data method, which relies on the document for structure and display, and still surfaces useful data. See how WorldCat does this with<> -

On 7/31/14, 9:50 AM, Ford, Kevin wrote:

Dear All,

Recording "Provider" information, such as who published, produced,

manufactured, or distributed something, where that happened, and when,

is presently modelled in such a way that a resource is devoted to this

information.  An example:

<><> a bf:Instance,

     bf:publication [

         a bf:Provider ;

         bf:providerDate "1966" ;

         bf:providerName [ a bf:Organization ; bf:label "Hamlyn" ] ;

         bf:providerPlace [ a bf:Place ; bf:label "London" ]

     ] .

In the above, the resource employs a blank node, but it would not need

to.  Regardless, this approach has a couple of significant problems:

1) Semantically, "providerDate" is unclear because it is actually

supposed to convey the "publication date."  And the (publication) date,

in fact, is an attribute of the Instance (the manifestation basically)

and not the "Provider" resource. (And simply bf:provider would be better

than bf:providerName, but that is a small point.)

2) It is not very reusable.  The above bf:Provider is only applicable to

things published by Hamlyn in London in 1966.

We'd like to explore simplifying how this information is handled in

bibframe by eliminating the bf:Provider resource altogether and creating

12 properties, 3 each for publisher, manufacturer, distributor, and

producer, all of which represent the major use cases as has long been

expressible in MARC.  These properties would be associated directly with

the Instance.  As an example, the above would become:

<><> a bf:Instance,

     bf:publishedBy [ a bf:Organization ; bf:label "Hamlyn" ] ;

     bf:publishedAt [ a bf:Place ; bf:label "London" ] ;

     bf:publishedOn "1966" .

You can imagine 3 each for manufactured*, distributed*, produced*.

This would clarify the semantics and do away with a resource that would

probably often be identified via a blank node because it is reusable in

only fairly specific circumstances.  (The above solution does not

preclude being able determine all the things published by Hamlyn in

London in 1966, if that is of specific interest.)

FYI: There has been no discussion whether bf:providerStatement would

change in any way, and I see no reason for it to change (except,

perhaps, to add publisherStatement, distributorStatement, etc. for

clarity and parity purposes, versus the one catch-all

providerStatement).  bf:providerStatement is really designed to address

the transcription aspect expected in RDA whereas the proposed properties

are designed to capture more structured data.  It's an undesirable

duplication, but it is what it is.

Can anyone foresee issues with this approach?




Kevin Ford

Network Development and MARC Standards Office

Library of Congress

Washington, DC


Karen Coyle

[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>

m: 1-510-435-8234<tel:1-510-435-8234>

skype: kcoylenet

Rob Sanderson
Technology Collaboration Facilitator
Digital Library Systems and Services
Stanford, CA 94305