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These recordings fall into a niche not yet filled. They are available as lossy downloads, and not 
sold cheap. A simple Google search reveals they are very well-liked by critics and audiophiles 
(mentioned in many Sanderling obits and tributes). Still, there may well not be enough annual sales 
to justify manufacture and inventory of physical product. So why doesn't Sony (the current owner, I 
think) market the 44.1/16 audio, a straight rip from the CD, via HDTracks? Or lossless-format 
iTunes? This isn't unprecedented at HDTracks. They sell many of the Alligator Records titles for 
around $10, straight rips from the CDs. The reason is that Alligator no longer maintains inventory 
of most CD titles (only the ones that sell enough copies each year to justify manufacturing and 
inventory). From what I gather doing non-deep reading about Sanderling, his recordings were hit and 
miss, on various labels and sometimes poorly recorded by communist technicians. So, it's unlikely 
there's material or potential sales to justify a box set. But we have these well-liked Brahms 
symphonies sitting there out of print.

There are other classical recordings that fall into this niche. I've been told by classical folks at 
both UMG and Sony that almost no back-catalog titles can be reissued as single CDs anymore because 
they never recoup the production and manufacturing costs. So if it can't be fit into a box set, it 
likely won't be in print on CD. And, there's a large quantity of material issued on CD in the 80s 
and 90s now out of print and likely not economically viable to be remastered for HD reissue. All of 
that material fits the niche for CD-resolution downloads. I'd like to see them at most line-priced 
with rock and jazz reissue CDs today, about $8 per disc of music. At that price, I think profits can 
be made all around (especially since the production costs were years ago and theoretically were 
recouped in the now-sold-out CD inventory). I was hoping ArkivMusic would get into this area, 
because they tried burn-on-demand CDs (which don't sell well, I note that Amazon has backed off that 
idea too). I'm also surprised that iTunes still doesn't sell lossless CD-resolution files. My bet 
is, it has to do with their initial agreements with the record companies ("you can't sell something 
as good as our CDs or we'll never get rid of this inventory on our books!"). Times are different 
now.

I'm very much interested in hearing Sanderling's version of Brahms, but not $75 interested (price 
for a new copy of the CDs) or $25 interested for lossy MP3 (Amazon price). iTunes seems to only have 
the Brahms 4th by Sanderling/Dresden, and only available in Europe, in lossy format, for 10 euros. 
Pass! I'd pay the $25, out of curiosity, for non-lossy downloads, especially if a PDF was included 
that told me recording details.

-- Tom Fine

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Nagamine" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 5:45 AM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Records Ruin the Landscape


> The Sanderling/Dresden  Brahms cycle was recorded by East German Deutsche Schallplatten.  There 
> were single LP issues on  British and West German RCA.  The original West German LP box set was on 
> Ariola Eurodisc.  I assume there was an East German Eterna LP equivalent.
>
> CD issues were on RCA/BMG and Eurodisc and Denon.  (The RCA and Eurodisc sets are both out of 
> print in the U.S., U.K., Germany, & Japan. and the Denon available only as imports from Japan.) 
> Denon issued a couple of the symphonies on SACD, but now out of print.
>
> There was also a live Dresden 1st available in Japan on CD & SACD.
>
> --------------------------
> Eric Nagamine
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf 
> Of Dave Burnham
> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 9:40 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Records Ruin the Landscape
>
> Dresden. I'm pretty sure I first had them on RCA LPs but they're on Eurodisc CDs.
>
> db
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Sep 24, 2014, at 11:01 PM, John Haley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi, Dave.  There seem to be at least three Brahms Symphony cycles
>> recorded by Sanderling--with Staatskapelle Dresden, Berlin Symphony
>> and Philharmonia/London Philharmonia.  Which one are you referring to?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> John
>>
>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 9:32 PM, Dave Burnham <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I would love to hear your reaction. Anyone I've played it for has
>>> been genuinely overwhelmed by it.
>>>
>>> db
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Sep 24, 2014, at 12:06 AM, John Haley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Dave.  I guess I better hear that one (Sanderling's).  Sorry
>>>> to
>>> say
>>>> that I haven't.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> John Haley
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 4:11 PM, Dave Burnham <[log in to unmask]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think any Brahms cycle comes close to Kurt Sanderling's.
>>>>> This
>>> set
>>>>> is perfect in every way, including sound and performance. I can't
>>>>> even think of what version would run a distant second.
>>>>>
>>>>> db
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sep 23, 2014, at 12:41 PM, John Haley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, all the great conductors could be impatient with sloppy
>>>>>> playing,
>>>>> but
>>>>>> that's not what happened as a routine matter with the world's
>>>>>> great orchestras that Dorati conducted, and not even in very good
>>>>>> regional orchestras like Dallas had.  All of the leading
>>>>>> orchestras in that era
>>>>> had
>>>>>> no problem with delivering the goods and did not deserve abuse.  I
>>>>>> have never heard anyone describe Dorati as "warm" and "liked."
>>>>>> Obviously he must have been very nice to the record company that
>>>>>> was a major factor
>>> in
>>>>>> sustaining his career.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also like Steinberg's Pittsburgh Brahms cycle, but Munch's
>>>>>> Brahms symphonies (the RCA ones, not always the live ones) are
>>>>>> also really
>>>>> great,
>>>>>> altho he never recorded the third symphony and there is no live
>>>>>> one either.  Munch (who as a violinist had studied with Flesch had
>>>>>> been Furtwangler's concertmaster) brought something of the sense
>>>>>> of urgency
>>>>> and
>>>>>> orchestral phrasing to the Brahms Symphonies that we hear in great
>>> older
>>>>>> recordings, such as the superb Weingartner's, which can make "modern"
>>>>>> recordings seem very pale by comparison, and RCA recorded
>>>>>> Munch/BSO stunningly.  Reiner also "got it right" with Brahms, as
>>>>>> he did with virtually everything he ever conducted.  His Brahms
>>>>>> Third Symphony with
>>>>> CSO
>>>>>> is magnificent in every way.  And Walter's mono cycle with the NY
>>>>>> Phil
>>> is
>>>>>> wonderful.  I guess everyone has favorites with staples like this.
>>> With
>>>>>> Dorati, things are correct but not inspired.  I never tire of the
>>> Brahms
>>>>>> symphonies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> John Haley
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 11:48 AM, Tom Fine <
>>> [log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi John:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Musicians who recieved Dorati's wrath, for sloppy playing or ill
>>>>>>> preparation, tended to feed the "reports" of his alleged ill temper.
>>> He
>>>>>>> actually was a warm person, much liked by those who made
>>>>>>> recordings
>>> with
>>>>>>> him. He was also known to be generous and to take regional
>>>>>>> orchestras
>>> to
>>>>>>> very high levels of competence. I'm sure he battled hard with
>>>>>>> American unions, and he got into quite a fight with unions and
>>>>>>> management when
>>> he
>>>>>>> was in Detroit late in his career. We very much disagree on his
>>>>> recordings,
>>>>>>> many of his are my favorites for various pieces (definitely at
>>>>>>> least
>>>>> partly
>>>>>>> a product of being brought up on those performances, but I have
>>>>> listened to
>>>>>>> the other "consensus favorites" for most works). He was
>>>>>>> interested in making precise and exciting recordings, but less
>>>>>>> coldly precise than
>>>>> Szell
>>>>>>> (who I also like very much). Dorati, especially in his Mercury
>>>>>>> era,
>>>>> rarely
>>>>>>> turned out dull moments. His later work on Haydn, both the
>>>>>>> symphonies
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> the operas, is still considered "the canon." I find it
>>>>>>> interesting
>>> that
>>>>> he
>>>>>>> was so good with Haydn but also with Stravinsky and Copland. I
>>>>>>> happen
>>> to
>>>>>>> agree that his Brahms cycle is OK but not great, to my taste. I'm
>>>>>>> not
>>> a
>>>>>>> huge fan of Brahms in the first place, so I'm picky. I think
>>>>>>> that's a
>>>>> case
>>>>>>> where the Szell treatment is quite good, but I really like what
>>>>> Steinberg
>>>>>>> did with Pittsburgh (again, probably because that's what I was
>>>>>>> brought
>>>>> up
>>>>>>> on), and also Solti/Chicago (which surprised me because I usually
>>> don't
>>>>>>> consider Solti "the best" at any symphonic recordings but never
>>>>>>> "the
>>>>> worst"
>>>>>>> -- Solti/Chicago also made a surpringly excellent "Rite of Spring"
>>>>>>> recording, more furious than you'd ever expect). Anyway, Dorati
>>>>>>> was
>>> very
>>>>>>> much liked and admired by the Mercury team, despite the
>>>>>>> occasional
>>>>> meltdown
>>>>>>> when the orchestra wasn't getting it right. His approach to music
>>>>> matched
>>>>>>> their approach to recording (get it right, overcome all
>>>>>>> obstacles,
>>> have
>>>>> no
>>>>>>> patience for sloppiness, do things boldly and with great
>>>>>>> intensity, be ambitious and optimistic).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- Tom Fine
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Haley"
>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 10:47 AM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Records Ruin the Landscape
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Re Tom's comments on Dorati.  Dorati was the conductor in Dallas
>>>>>>> for a
>>>>>>>> while, and he left behind him there a reputation as a
>>>>>>>> particularly
>>>>> nasty
>>>>>>>> character, personally, to work for or with, and I recall having
>>>>>>>> seen elsewhere some comments that orchestral musicians generally
>>>>>>>> disliked
>>>>> him
>>>>>>>> very much.  Of course he was not alone in that.  The Mercury
>>>>>>>> CD's of
>>>>> his
>>>>>>>> Brahms Symphony cycle are all in stereo, and it is very good,
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>> great.
>>>>>>>> Try as I might, I have never been able to "fall in love" with
>>>>>>>> his
>>>>> records.
>>>>>>>> Extreme competence as a conductor, but not the heart that other
>>>>>>>> great ones brought to the task, including the three other great
>>>>>>>> Hungarians
>>>>> who
>>>>>>>> preceded him with leading conducting careers in the US, Reiner,
>>> Ormandy
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> Szell, all of whom made greater records (musically) than Dorati.
>>>>>>>> I
>>> am
>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>> Dorati must have his great fans; I am just not one of them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> John Haley
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:40 AM, Dennis Rooney <
>>>>> [log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> À propos the above comments, it was Doráti who conducted the MSO
>>>>>>>> in
>>> the
>>>>>>>>> local premiere of Mahler's Third (I believe the year was 1953),
>>>>>>>>> but Mitropoulos had earlier recorded the First and Ormandy did
>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>> important
>>>>>>>>> "Resurrection" there, recorded in concert by Victor in 1935.
>>>>>>>>> Steve Smolian's recollection of academic opposition to Mahler
>>>>>>>>> is important
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> note; however, Mahler was played by the larger U.S. orchestras,
>>>>>>>>> sporadically but regularly from the teens on. Ernst Kunwald led
>>>>>>>>> a performance of the Third in Cincinnati (May Festival) in 1913.
>>>>>>>>> Unquestionably, Mahler was a beneficiary of the long-playing
>>>>>>>>> record,
>>>>> even
>>>>>>>>> before stereo, with important recordings by Scherchen, Adler,
>>> Rosbaud,
>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> DDR
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 2:24 PM, Tom Fine <
>>>>> [log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Don:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Mercury didn't adhere to any "standard canon of classical music"
>>>>> except
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> that Paray and Dorati both liked Beethoven and Dorati liked
>>>>>>>>>> Brahms
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> Tchaikovsky so those composers were well represented.
>>>>>>>>>> Otherwise,
>>>>> Dorati
>>>>>>>>>> made plenty of records of Hungarian, Russian, Czech and other
>>> Eastern
>>>>>>>>>> European composers, plus an on-going series of well-received
>>> American
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> European modern-classical composers. Paray usually stuck to
>>>>>>>>>> French
>>>>>>>>> music
>>>>>>>>>> and Romantic era classical. Hanson was all about modern
>>>>>>>>>> American
>>>>> music,
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> the most part. Fennell was into a variety of things from
>>>>>>>>>> marches to
>>>>>>>>> "pops"
>>>>>>>>>> to wind arrangements of symphonic music. None of this was
>>>>>>>>>> "standard
>>>>>>>>> canon,"
>>>>>>>>>> and it was Mercury's main point of difference (note that there
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>> not a
>>>>>>>>>> complete Beethoven cycle on Mercury Living Presence, never a
>>>>>>>>>> 9th
>>>>>>>>> recorded
>>>>>>>>>> and no released stereo 4th or 8th; if I recall correctly one
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> Dorati's
>>>>>>>>>> Brahms symphonies was mono-only too). I would say the reason
>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>> Mahler
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>> recorded was that none of Mercury's conductors or orchestras
>>>>> performed
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> advocated Mahler, the exception being Barbirolli (who was
>>>>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>>>> under
>>>>>>>>>> contract with Pye). It's also worth noting that Walter and
>>> Bernstein
>>>>>>>>>> started making well-received Mahler recordings in the "golden era"
>>>>>>>>> (late
>>>>>>>>>> mono/early stereo LP era). No sane record producer would spend
>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>> resources competing with Columbia's Bernstein publicity machine.
>>>>>>>>> Columbia
>>>>>>>>>> and RCA were much more obsessed with recording every note of
>>>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>>>> piece
>>>>>>>>>> from Beethoven to the 20th century, "standard canon" material,
>>>>> usually
>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>> multiple conductors and orchestras. Finally, it's worth noting
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> Dorati
>>>>>>>>>> brought forth a lot of new-to-recordings material from
>>>>>>>>>> Tchaikovsky
>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>> original scoring for the ballets, first recording of "1812" as
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>> was
>>>>>>>>>> originally conceived, first recording of the complete Suites.
>>> Dorati
>>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>>>> premiere-recorded several modern pieces. Hanson's recording
>>>>>>>>>> tally
>>> is
>>>>>>>>> full
>>>>>>>>>> of premieres by the very nature of his American Music Festivals.
>>>>>>>>> Fennell
>>>>>>>>>> hunted down original band music never recorded and not heard
>>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> original bands, including Confederate sheet music found in
>>>>>>>>>> attics
>>> for
>>>>>>>>> "The
>>>>>>>>>> Civil War" albums. None of this is "standard canon of
>>>>>>>>>> classical
>>>>> music"
>>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>>> any stretch. Mercury buyers were not wanting the Reader's
>>>>>>>>>> Digest
>>>>> Guide
>>>>>>>>> To
>>>>>>>>>> Great Music, but Mercury made sure not to get so out there on
>>>>>>>>>> every
>>>>>>>>> release
>>>>>>>>>> that they couldn't sell records. This was part of what doomed
>>> Everest
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> too much stuff that no one had heard of, no matter how well
>>> recorded.
>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>> last thing they did, as they were in the midst of shutting
>>>>>>>>>> down,
>>> was
>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> mediocre Beethoven cycle with Krips.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To part of your point, it's doubtful that Mahler symphonies
>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>>> performed out in places like Minneapolis or Detroit in that
>>>>>>>>>> period,
>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> audiences were demanding it. But, I think if you checked
>>>>>>>>>> concert
>>>>>>>>> repertoire
>>>>>>>>>> around the US, they were being performed here and there
>>>>>>>>>> through the
>>>>>>>>> years.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -- Tom Fine
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Cox" <
>>> [log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 2:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Records Ruin the Landscape
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There are no Mercury recordings of any of these (or of
>>>>>>>>>> Mahler),
>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>> shows they were not in the standard canon of classical music
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> 1950s.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Don Cox
>>>>>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> 1006 Langer Way
>>>>>>>>> Delray Beach, FL 33483
>>>>>>>>> 212.874.9626
>>>
>
>