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Oops. The Berlin Symphony one is with Thomas Sanderling, not Kurt. And it looks like both Kurt cycles have appeared on various labels, including a Denon redo of the 1970's Dresden cycle. Which version are you listening to? Best, John Haley On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 11:01 PM, John Haley <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Hi, Dave. There seem to be at least three Brahms Symphony cycles recorded > by Sanderling--with Staatskapelle Dresden, Berlin Symphony and > Philharmonia/London Philharmonia. Which one are you referring to? > > Thanks, > John > > > On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 9:32 PM, Dave Burnham <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> I would love to hear your reaction. Anyone I've played it for has been >> genuinely overwhelmed by it. >> >> db >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> > On Sep 24, 2014, at 12:06 AM, John Haley <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> > >> > Thanks, Dave. I guess I better hear that one (Sanderling's). Sorry to >> say >> > that I haven't. >> > >> > Best, >> > John Haley >> > >> >> On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 4:11 PM, Dave Burnham <[log in to unmask]> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> I don't think any Brahms cycle comes close to Kurt Sanderling's. This >> set >> >> is perfect in every way, including sound and performance. I can't even >> >> think of what version would run a distant second. >> >> >> >> db >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> >> >>> On Sep 23, 2014, at 12:41 PM, John Haley <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Well, all the great conductors could be impatient with sloppy playing, >> >> but >> >>> that's not what happened as a routine matter with the world's great >> >>> orchestras that Dorati conducted, and not even in very good regional >> >>> orchestras like Dallas had. All of the leading orchestras in that era >> >> had >> >>> no problem with delivering the goods and did not deserve abuse. I >> have >> >>> never heard anyone describe Dorati as "warm" and "liked." Obviously >> he >> >>> must have been very nice to the record company that was a major >> factor in >> >>> sustaining his career. >> >>> >> >>> I also like Steinberg's Pittsburgh Brahms cycle, but Munch's Brahms >> >>> symphonies (the RCA ones, not always the live ones) are also really >> >> great, >> >>> altho he never recorded the third symphony and there is no live one >> >>> either. Munch (who as a violinist had studied with Flesch had been >> >>> Furtwangler's concertmaster) brought something of the sense of urgency >> >> and >> >>> orchestral phrasing to the Brahms Symphonies that we hear in great >> older >> >>> recordings, such as the superb Weingartner's, which can make "modern" >> >>> recordings seem very pale by comparison, and RCA recorded Munch/BSO >> >>> stunningly. Reiner also "got it right" with Brahms, as he did with >> >>> virtually everything he ever conducted. His Brahms Third Symphony >> with >> >> CSO >> >>> is magnificent in every way. And Walter's mono cycle with the NY >> Phil is >> >>> wonderful. I guess everyone has favorites with staples like this. >> With >> >>> Dorati, things are correct but not inspired. I never tire of the >> Brahms >> >>> symphonies. >> >>> >> >>> Best, >> >>> John Haley >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 11:48 AM, Tom Fine < >> [log in to unmask]> >> >>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Hi John: >> >>>> >> >>>> Musicians who recieved Dorati's wrath, for sloppy playing or ill >> >>>> preparation, tended to feed the "reports" of his alleged ill temper. >> He >> >>>> actually was a warm person, much liked by those who made recordings >> with >> >>>> him. He was also known to be generous and to take regional >> orchestras to >> >>>> very high levels of competence. I'm sure he battled hard with >> American >> >>>> unions, and he got into quite a fight with unions and management >> when he >> >>>> was in Detroit late in his career. We very much disagree on his >> >> recordings, >> >>>> many of his are my favorites for various pieces (definitely at least >> >> partly >> >>>> a product of being brought up on those performances, but I have >> >> listened to >> >>>> the other "consensus favorites" for most works). He was interested in >> >>>> making precise and exciting recordings, but less coldly precise than >> >> Szell >> >>>> (who I also like very much). Dorati, especially in his Mercury era, >> >> rarely >> >>>> turned out dull moments. His later work on Haydn, both the symphonies >> >> and >> >>>> the operas, is still considered "the canon." I find it interesting >> that >> >> he >> >>>> was so good with Haydn but also with Stravinsky and Copland. I >> happen to >> >>>> agree that his Brahms cycle is OK but not great, to my taste. I'm >> not a >> >>>> huge fan of Brahms in the first place, so I'm picky. I think that's a >> >> case >> >>>> where the Szell treatment is quite good, but I really like what >> >> Steinberg >> >>>> did with Pittsburgh (again, probably because that's what I was >> brought >> >> up >> >>>> on), and also Solti/Chicago (which surprised me because I usually >> don't >> >>>> consider Solti "the best" at any symphonic recordings but never "the >> >> worst" >> >>>> -- Solti/Chicago also made a surpringly excellent "Rite of Spring" >> >>>> recording, more furious than you'd ever expect). Anyway, Dorati was >> very >> >>>> much liked and admired by the Mercury team, despite the occasional >> >> meltdown >> >>>> when the orchestra wasn't getting it right. His approach to music >> >> matched >> >>>> their approach to recording (get it right, overcome all obstacles, >> have >> >> no >> >>>> patience for sloppiness, do things boldly and with great intensity, >> be >> >>>> ambitious and optimistic). >> >>>> >> >>>> -- Tom Fine >> >>>> >> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Haley" <[log in to unmask] >> > >> >>>> To: <[log in to unmask]> >> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 10:47 AM >> >>>> >> >>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Records Ruin the Landscape >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Re Tom's comments on Dorati. Dorati was the conductor in Dallas for >> a >> >>>>> while, and he left behind him there a reputation as a particularly >> >> nasty >> >>>>> character, personally, to work for or with, and I recall having seen >> >>>>> elsewhere some comments that orchestral musicians generally disliked >> >> him >> >>>>> very much. Of course he was not alone in that. The Mercury CD's of >> >> his >> >>>>> Brahms Symphony cycle are all in stereo, and it is very good, not >> >> great. >> >>>>> Try as I might, I have never been able to "fall in love" with his >> >> records. >> >>>>> Extreme competence as a conductor, but not the heart that other >> great >> >>>>> ones brought to the task, including the three other great Hungarians >> >> who >> >>>>> preceded him with leading conducting careers in the US, Reiner, >> Ormandy >> >>>>> and >> >>>>> Szell, all of whom made greater records (musically) than Dorati. I >> am >> >>>>> sure >> >>>>> Dorati must have his great fans; I am just not one of them. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Best, >> >>>>> John Haley >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 9:40 AM, Dennis Rooney < >> >> [log in to unmask]> >> >>>>> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> À propos the above comments, it was Doráti who conducted the MSO in >> the >> >>>>>> local premiere of Mahler's Third (I believe the year was 1953), but >> >>>>>> Mitropoulos had earlier recorded the First and Ormandy did an >> >> important >> >>>>>> "Resurrection" there, recorded in concert by Victor in 1935. Steve >> >>>>>> Smolian's recollection of academic opposition to Mahler is >> important >> >> to >> >>>>>> note; however, Mahler was played by the larger U.S. orchestras, >> >>>>>> sporadically but regularly from the teens on. Ernst Kunwald led a >> >>>>>> performance of the Third in Cincinnati (May Festival) in 1913. >> >>>>>> Unquestionably, Mahler was a beneficiary of the long-playing >> record, >> >> even >> >>>>>> before stereo, with important recordings by Scherchen, Adler, >> Rosbaud, >> >>>>>> etc. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> DDR >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 2:24 PM, Tom Fine < >> >> [log in to unmask]> >> >>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Hi Don: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Mercury didn't adhere to any "standard canon of classical music" >> >> except >> >>>>>> in >> >>>>>>> that Paray and Dorati both liked Beethoven and Dorati liked Brahms >> >> and >> >>>>>>> Tchaikovsky so those composers were well represented. Otherwise, >> >> Dorati >> >>>>>>> made plenty of records of Hungarian, Russian, Czech and other >> Eastern >> >>>>>>> European composers, plus an on-going series of well-received >> American >> >>>>>> and >> >>>>>>> European modern-classical composers. Paray usually stuck to French >> >>>>>> music >> >>>>>>> and Romantic era classical. Hanson was all about modern American >> >> music, >> >>>>>> for >> >>>>>>> the most part. Fennell was into a variety of things from marches >> to >> >>>>>> "pops" >> >>>>>>> to wind arrangements of symphonic music. None of this was >> "standard >> >>>>>> canon," >> >>>>>>> and it was Mercury's main point of difference (note that there is >> >> not a >> >>>>>>> complete Beethoven cycle on Mercury Living Presence, never a 9th >> >>>>>> recorded >> >>>>>>> and no released stereo 4th or 8th; if I recall correctly one of >> >>>>>> Dorati's >> >>>>>>> Brahms symphonies was mono-only too). I would say the reason no >> >> Mahler >> >>>>>> was >> >>>>>>> recorded was that none of Mercury's conductors or orchestras >> >> performed >> >>>>>> or >> >>>>>>> advocated Mahler, the exception being Barbirolli (who was actually >> >>>>>> under >> >>>>>>> contract with Pye). It's also worth noting that Walter and >> Bernstein >> >>>>>>> started making well-received Mahler recordings in the "golden era" >> >>>>>> (late >> >>>>>>> mono/early stereo LP era). No sane record producer would spend >> very >> >>>>>> many >> >>>>>>> resources competing with Columbia's Bernstein publicity machine. >> >>>>>> Columbia >> >>>>>>> and RCA were much more obsessed with recording every note of every >> >>>>>> piece >> >>>>>>> from Beethoven to the 20th century, "standard canon" material, >> >> usually >> >>>>>> by >> >>>>>>> multiple conductors and orchestras. Finally, it's worth noting >> that >> >>>>>> Dorati >> >>>>>>> brought forth a lot of new-to-recordings material from Tchaikovsky >> >> like >> >>>>>>> original scoring for the ballets, first recording of "1812" as it >> was >> >>>>>>> originally conceived, first recording of the complete Suites. >> Dorati >> >>>>>> also >> >>>>>>> premiere-recorded several modern pieces. Hanson's recording tally >> is >> >>>>>> full >> >>>>>>> of premieres by the very nature of his American Music Festivals. >> >>>>>> Fennell >> >>>>>>> hunted down original band music never recorded and not heard since >> >> the >> >>>>>>> original bands, including Confederate sheet music found in attics >> for >> >>>>>> "The >> >>>>>>> Civil War" albums. None of this is "standard canon of classical >> >> music" >> >>>>>> by >> >>>>>>> any stretch. Mercury buyers were not wanting the Reader's Digest >> >> Guide >> >>>>>> To >> >>>>>>> Great Music, but Mercury made sure not to get so out there on >> every >> >>>>>> release >> >>>>>>> that they couldn't sell records. This was part of what doomed >> Everest >> >>>>>> -- >> >>>>>>> too much stuff that no one had heard of, no matter how well >> recorded. >> >>>>>> The >> >>>>>>> last thing they did, as they were in the midst of shutting down, >> was >> >> a >> >>>>>>> mediocre Beethoven cycle with Krips. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> To part of your point, it's doubtful that Mahler symphonies were >> >> being >> >>>>>>> performed out in places like Minneapolis or Detroit in that >> period, >> >> or >> >>>>>> that >> >>>>>>> audiences were demanding it. But, I think if you checked concert >> >>>>>> repertoire >> >>>>>>> around the US, they were being performed here and there through >> the >> >>>>>> years. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> -- Tom Fine >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Cox" < >> [log in to unmask]> >> >>>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]> >> >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 2:47 PM >> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Records Ruin the Landscape >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> <snip> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> There are no Mercury recordings of any of these (or of Mahler), >> which >> >>>>>>>> shows they were not in the standard canon of classical music in >> the >> >>>>>>>> 1950s. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Regards >> >>>>>>>> -- >> >>>>>>>> Don Cox >> >>>>>>>> [log in to unmask] >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> -- >> >>>>>> 1006 Langer Way >> >>>>>> Delray Beach, FL 33483 >> >>>>>> 212.874.9626 >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >> >> > >