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Karen,

I think your analysis is correct. The bf:derivedFrom property needs to be attached to the URI *after* the 303 redirect (i.e. the "description" resource) rather than the URI before of the 303 (i.e. the RWO/hair-pulling/thing-a-ma-bob resource).

If Ray changed his italicized human-speak from this:

“But that line is also saying that this bf:Instance is an RDF description.”

To this:

“But that line is also saying that this bf:Instance has an RDF description.”

I think it would be a major step.

Jeff

On Jan 28, 2015, at 6:13 PM, Karen Coyle <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:

I thought the issue that came up with a bit different, and was illustrated by:


<http://bibframe.org/resources/fmP1422484598/14290423instance21><http://bibframe.org/resources/fmP1422484598/14290423instance21> a bf:Instance,
        bf:Monograph ;
    bf:derivedFrom <http://bibframe.org/resources/fmP1422484598/14290423.marcxml.xml><http://bibframe.org/resources/fmP1422484598/14290423.marcxml.xml> ;



If "http:...instance21"<http:...instance21> identifies a RWO, then the next line doesn't make sense - a RWO, in this case an actual book, can't be derived from a MARC record. If instead "http:...instance21"<http:...instance21> identifies a bf:Instance graph, not the thing for which it is a surrogate, (and which then is consistent with the second line, above) then we appear to not have an identifier for the RWO. What that means is that if you attach a book review to the bf:Instance, you are saying that the book review is reviewing the bf:Instance graph, not the book it represents.

So what it comes down to is:

either "http:...instance21"<http:...instance21> represents a real world object, and line two is in error, or "http:...instance21"<http:...instance21> represents the bf:Instance graph, and there is no addressable identifier for the real world object.

kc

On 1/28/15 2:23 PM, Young,Jeff (OR) wrote:
Ray,

I think this is very well stated up to this point:

“But that line is also saying that this bf:Instance is an RDF description.”

Note that “RDF description” (as in <rdf:Description>) is not an ontological class. It is a bizarre artifact of RDF/XML to accommodate the potential lack of an explicit type assignment. Note, for example, that rdf:Description isn’t manifested in other RDF serializations like a real class would be. It drops out.

It’s not surprising that people assume it is an ontological class, though, because Striped RDF/XML has some syntactic sugar that allows you to swap it out for one of the rdf:types, if you want to.

http://www.w3.org/2001/10/stripes/

RDF/XML is evil. :)

Jeff

From: Bibliographic Framework Transition Initiative Forum [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Denenberg, Ray
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 4:55 PM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: [BIBFRAME] What is a BIBFRAME Resource?

I seemed to have caused some confusion (my apologies) by my post week-before-last;  I was away (on vacation) all last week, so I have just gotten back to this. I want to try to explain my view of what a BIBFRAME resource is,  in simple terms, without using  terminology that I don’t think we have agreed-upon definition for, such as “real-world-object”, “thingy”, and “r-ball”.  (I have no idea what an r-ball is, only a vague idea what a thingy is, and I know what my definition of an RWO is but am not sure we all agree.)    If I use any term that anyone thinks does not have a commonly agreed-upon definition, please call me out.

So let me try to work through this.

At:
http://bibframe.org/resources/BKw1416525962/779299instance18.rdf


The first line is:

<bf:Instance rdf:about="http://bibframe.org/resources/BKw1416525962/779299instance18">

These are two distinct URIs:


1.       http://bibframe.org/resources/BKw1416525962/779299instance18.rdf    an RDF description,

2.       http://bibframe.org/resources/BKw1416525962/779299instance18     the thing it describes.

Rob says  (I’m paraphrasing) “you can’t have one single URI identifying both the thing and it’s description” .  But we don’t.  These are two distinct URIs.   The trick is, if you click on the “thing” you get the description, i.e. you get RDF, and that’s because  that’s what web architecture and linked data principles say is supposed to happen: if a URI identifies a resource which is an abstract concept, if you dereference that  URI there should be an HTTP 303 re-direct to an RDF description of that resource.


And the line that says:

          <bf:Instance rdf:about="http://bibframe.org/resources/BKw1416525962/779299instance18">

Is saying that this RDF description is ABOUT  http://bibframe.org/resources/BKw1416525962/779299instance18     which is an abstract thing (an Instance).  And the properties expressed within the RDF description are properties of that abstract thing.

But that line is also saying that this bf:Instance is an RDF description.

 So a bf:Instance is an RDF description.   That’s the part that seemed to cause anguish.  So how do we get around that?   I propose we say   “a bf:Instance is a description, and a BIBFRAME Instance is an abstract concept”.

Does this help?

Ray





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Karen Coyle
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