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Martynas, The MARC paradigm is based on record sharing and tweaking records for various reasons (describing new editions, local cataloging practices, etc.) With the advent of the global Web of Data, all that sharing and tweaking needs to be reconciled. Jeff > -----Original Message----- > From: Bibliographic Framework Transition Initiative Forum > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Martynas Jusevicius > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 1:59 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [BIBFRAME] 2-tier BIBFRAME > > Ronald, > > two quick comments: > 1. you can calculate graph distance and closure on RDF data, just not with > SPARQL 2. how often do you need to do that for bibliographic data? > > On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 7:20 PM, Murray, Ronald <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Jeff: > > > > > > > > Agreed. Where things get tricky is when an implementation language > > closes off desirable/necessary descriptive possibilities. For example the > “graph” > > properties implemented by RDF don’t encompass the broader set of graph > > properties and measurements documented in Wolfram Mathematica, for example: > > > > > > > > http://reference.wolfram.com/language/guide/GraphPropertiesAndMeasurem > > ents.html > > > > > > > > A lot of these properties and measurements can be assigned > > community-relevant theoretical meanings, enabling discussions of what > > we want (leading to implementations of what we want) in a more > > accurate fashion. For example: > > > > > > > > What is the “graph distance*” between description “A” and description > > “B” if we permit relationships “X” , “Y”, and “Z” to be used as links/edges? > > > > > > > > Are “B’s” descriptions reachable from “A’s” at all? > > > > > > > > “Someone” wishing to benefit from those kinds of graph possibilities > > has to put those properties and measurements into their graph > > descriptions and applications, or implement them as part of their > application layer, e.g.: > > > > > > > > RDAGraphDistance(target, source, RDAgraph [optional > > relationship_list]) Returns “Infinity” of no path exists. > > > > > > > > Ron M. > > > > > > > > * http://reference.wolfram.com/language/ref/GraphDistance.html > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Bibliographic Framework Transition Initiative Forum > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Young,Jeff (OR) > > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 12:24 PM > > > > > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: [BIBFRAME] 2-tier BIBFRAME > > > > > > > > Ron, > > > > > > > > I think you’re saying that modeling experts need to listen to domain > > experts and the former need to reflect it back in ways the latter (and > > beyond) can consistently recognize, understand, and use more > > efficiently. An analogy would be mathematics. Math needs to reflect > > reality and prove itself useful in practice, but not everybody needs > > to know the math to realize those benefits. > > > > > > > > I would argue that modeling experts need to be steeped in the > > jargon-intense vocabularies of RDF so they can create domain-friendly > > vocabularies where the RDF underpinnings aren’t necessarily even > > noticed. Unfortunately, we live the renaissance period where the > > boundaries aren’t necessary clear to everyone. > > > > > > > > Jeff > > > > > > > > From: Bibliographic Framework Transition Initiative Forum > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Murray, Ronald > > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 11:44 AM > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: [BIBFRAME] 2-tier BIBFRAME > > > > > > > > The difficulty I see in this thread (and much prior to this thread) > > is that instead of contending with a single approach to bibliographic > > description couched in the implementation language of the time (book, > > card, and MARC catalog technology) we now see two approaches where > > workers are trying to do theory in implementation (or at least IT-centric ) > languages. > > > > > > > > Not all of the issues associated with Cultural Heritage resource > > description fall with the scope of IT-centric descriptive languages. > > > > > > > > Early 20th century approaches to scientific description (observers, > > observations, reference frames, etc.) and for representing systems of > > relationships (graph, node/vertex, link/edge, subgraph, degree > > centrality, > > etc.) together (along with conceptual contributions from the social > > sciences) provide more than enough – implementable – descriptive > > power to address library/archive-grade resource description requirements. > > > > > > > > You have to apply the two approaches simultaneously. > > > > > > > > Ron Murray > > > > > > > > From: Robert Sanderson <[log in to unmask]> > > Reply-To: Bibliographic Framework Transition Initiative Forum > > <[log in to unmask]> > > Date: Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 3:09 PM > > To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]> > > Subject: Re: [BIBFRAME] 2-tier BIBFRAME > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me add a few points to that: > > > > > > > > * We need to take into consideration the viewpoints of people who are > > experienced in both sides of the current effort (bibliographic > > description and linked data), and there are very few people with a > > great deal of expertise in both. > > > > > > > > * Actually, in my view, having people engaging with the effort that do > > NOT know MARC is an advantage, not a disadvantage. There are a huge > > number of peculiarities introduced over the years that should be > > reconsidered by fresh eyes, rather than perpetuated without cause. > > > > > > > > * There's more future than there is past. MARC has existed for a long > > time, and there's a lot of legacy there. But there's even more > > bibliographic descriptions that have yet to be written. The longer we > > remain tied to this horribly outdated technology, the more legacy data > > we will need to deal with and the further apart from the rest of the > > world (that is part of the web, not just displayed via the web) we become. > > > > > > > > Your mileage may vary :) > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 10:43 AM, Jeff Young > > <[log in to unmask]> > > wrote: > > > > Michael, > > > > The reason is so that people who have never seen a MARC record never > > need to. They just want the information that is locked up deep inside. > > > > Jeff > > > > > > > > > >> On Jan 31, 2015, at 1:28 PM, Michael Ayres <[log in to unmask]> > >> wrote: > >> > >> Martynas wrote: > >>>> ... > >>>> I haven't seen any actual MARC data, but if someone has a simple > >>>> example, we could work on that. > >>>> > >>>> Martynas > >> > >> Warning--RANT ahead: > >> OK--You've got be kidding!! Why is someone who has never seen any > >> actual MARC data trying to mess with restructuring the framework of > >> our library catalogs?!? > >> This is preposterous! As someone who has spent years cataloging (in > >> both academic and public institutions) as well as managing local > >> systems and library catalog data--I, for one, find this whole > >> 'BIBFRAME' project laughable. Why do the 'powers that be' think that > >> we even want our local catalogs to be semantically connected to the > >> web or have all of our data linked?! But go ahead and just keep on > >> theorizing, while those of us in the trenches keep serving our local > >> customers' needs so very well with MARC (and AACR2). > >> [rant over--no need to respond to this] > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Rob Sanderson > > > > Information Standards Advocate > > > > Digital Library Systems and Services > > > > Stanford, CA 94305