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Technically, I would say that you cannot create a description that follows *both* RDA and ISBD.  It needs to be one or the other, because while RDA has been designed to be in general alignment with ISBD (see RDA 0.3.3 and RDA D.1.1), there are still some mutually exclusive provisions in each of them.  But the intent in RDA is to be able to create descriptions that essentially satisfy the provisions of ISBD and can be displayed according to ISBD presentation specifications.  In MARC, the Leader/18 code helps the cataloger or system by indicating whether or not the MARC record contains intra-field ISBD punctuation.  (It says nothing about whether or not beginning-of-the-next-ISBD-area-or-element punctuation is included, fully or partially, at the end of the MARC field (think of the full stop at the end of a 245 field, for example), but let's not go there today...)

I cannot find anything in ISBD (consolidated edition, draft of 2010-05-10) explicitly stating that punctuation within an element that is identical to prescribed punctuation between elements is allowed or prohibited.

However:

ISBD 1.1.5.1 says "The title proper is transcribed from the prescribed source of information exactly as to wording, but not necessarily as to capitalization or punctuation (see also A.7). ..."  And ISBD A.3.2.1 says "... The inclusion of other punctuation is at the discretion of the cataloguing agency, as is the spacing before and after such punctuation. Prescribed punctuation is retained even when this results in double punctuation ..."

But then there is also ISBD 1.1.5.4 (Displayed text without a title), which says "Punctuation is at the discretion of the cataloguing agency, except that combinations of symbols and spacing that have a special function is ISBD descriptions are to be avoided. ..."  Note that the context here is not resources that have a title, but one wonders if that general principle is a subtext for ISBD 1.1.5.1.

So, going back to the title that started this whole thread, if we were to consider it as a title/subtitle, might we be able to render it in ISBD as:

Integration through law: : the role of law and the rule of law in asean integration

Kind of ugly, so I'm not recommending it, but...

Kevin M. Randall
Principal Serials Cataloger
Northwestern University Library
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
(847) 491-2939

Proudly wearing the sensible shoes since 1978!


From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of JOHN C ATTIG
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2015 11:03 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Need help with a series title

I was disagreeing with Adam's contention that "RDA used with ISBD requirements" only requires use of prescribed punctuation, and that all the rest of the ISBD specifications can safely be ignored.  To me, that is cheating.

However, I should note that I should not have mentioned the coding of a record as ISBD in LDR/18.  That code now means "ISBD punctuation included" and deals only with the punctuation.  So Adam would be correct if he said that using that code only requires use of prescribed punctuation.

        John

________________________________
From: "Greta de Groat" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2015 11:37:22 AM
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Need help with a series title

John, i'm not clear on who you are disagreeing with, Christoper or Adam?

I agree with Adam.  The Star Trek example is a good one of how colons are used in the real life world and how treating anything following a colon as a subtitles is not only out of step with how the rest of the world views titles, but also creates many title conflicts that we are now required to resolve if you follow the LC-PCC-PS documentation.

greta de groat
Stanford University Libraries.


On 4/16/2015 8:25 AM, JOHN C ATTIG wrote:
I disagree.  Your example below only partially follows the ISBD specifications.

RDA does not require any aspect of ISBD, but if you choose to follow ISBD -- and code the record as following ISBD -- then you are expected to follow the ISBD specifications for sources, transcription, etc., not just the ISBD elements and punctuation.

        John Attig
        Authority Control Librarian
        Penn State University

________________________________
From: "Adam L. Schiff" <[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2015 11:08:51 AM
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Need help with a series title

Christopher,

I don't agree with you here.  I don't believe that you have to change it something else in the title proper or elsewhere.  I interpret RDA used with the ISBD requirements as meaning that you have to separate the title proper from other title by space colon space, but you wouldn't have to change the punctuation in the title proper.  In other words (made-up example):

245 10 $a Star trek: the next generation : $b a history and episode list of the TV show / $c by Captain Picard.

I'm interested in hearing if others agree.

Adam Schiff
University of Washington Libraries

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015, Christopher Thomas wrote:

> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 14:36:10 +0000
> From: Christopher Thomas <[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Need help with a series title
>
> A colon is prescribed punctuation for other title information in ISBD.  RDA doesn't require using ISBD punctuation, but if you do, you need to change the colon to something else in the title proper.
>
>
> Christopher Thomas | Electronic Resources and Metadata Librarian
> (949) 824-7681 | fax (949) 824-6700 | [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> LAW LIBRARY * UNIVERSITY of CALIFORNIA * IRVINE
> www.law.uci.edu.library<http://www.law.uci.edu.library>