From: "Greta de Groat" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2015 11:37:22 AM
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Need help with a series title

John, i'm not clear on who you are disagreeing with, Christoper or Adam?

I agree with Adam.  The Star Trek example is a good one of how colons are used in the real life world and how treating anything following a colon as a subtitles is not only out of step with how the rest of the world views titles, but also creates many title conflicts that we are now required to resolve if you follow the LC-PCC-PS documentation.

greta de groat
Stanford University Libraries.

On 4/16/2015 8:25 AM, JOHN C ATTIG wrote:

[log in to unmask]">

I disagree.  Your example below only partially follows the ISBD specifications.

RDA does not require any aspect of ISBD, but if you choose to follow ISBD -- and code the record as following ISBD -- then you are expected to follow the ISBD specifications for sources, transcription, etc., not just the ISBD elements and punctuation.

        John Attig

        Authority Control Librarian

        Penn State University

---

From: "Adam L. Schiff" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2015 11:08:51 AM
Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Need help with a series title

Christopher,

I don't agree with you here.  I don't believe that you have to change it something else in the title proper or elsewhere.  I interpret RDA used with the ISBD requirements as meaning that you have to separate the title proper from other title by space colon space, but you wouldn't have to change the punctuation in the title proper.  In other words (made-up example):

245 10 $a Star trek: the next generation : $b a history and episode list of the TV show / $c by Captain Picard.

I'm interested in hearing if others agree.

Adam Schiff
University of Washington Libraries

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015, Christopher Thomas wrote:

> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 14:36:10 +0000
> From: Christopher Thomas <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To: Program for Cooperative Cataloging <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Need help with a series title
>
> A colon is prescribed punctuation for other title information in ISBD.  RDA doesn't require using ISBD punctuation, but if you do, you need to change the colon to something else in the title proper.
>
>
> Christopher Thomas | Electronic Resources and Metadata Librarian
> (949) 824-7681 | fax (949) 824-6700 | [log in to unmask]
> LAW LIBRARY * UNIVERSITY of CALIFORNIA * IRVINE
> www.law.uci.edu.library
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Adam L. Schiff
> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 5:22 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Need help with a series title
>
> I agree with you Eugene. RDA allows colons to be present in titles proper, so if you interpret the entire thing pre- and post-colon as the title proper, that is a valid authorized access point.  It's definitely open to interpretation here.  LC has many authorized access points for films and tv programs in which they changed the colon to a hyphen or a comma, e.g. Star trek--the animated series (Television program) and Star Wars, episode III, revenge of the Sith (Motion picture) and Lord of the rings, the fellowship of the ring (Motion picture).  The colon is now allowed in RDA, so a comma or hyphen no longer need be used.
>
> Adam Schiff
>
> On Wed, 15 Apr 2015, Dickerson, Eugene H wrote:
>
>> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 20:05:58 +0000
>> From: "Dickerson, Eugene H" <[log in to unmask]>
>> Reply-To: Program for Cooperative Cataloging
>> <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Need help with a series title
>>
>> Just to shake things up a little bit ...
>>
>> If the series title appears consistently on the chief source as
>> Integration through law: the role of law and the rule of law in ASEAN
>> integration
>>
>> why can't all of this be considered as the title proper of the series?
>> (The publisher certainly uses all of this text as the series title
>> when you look at the listings on the website.)
>>
>> I think that we got into the habit with AACR2 and MARC of saying to ourselves, "Oh, this has a colon, so that means I transcribe everything after the colon as other title information."  This confuses the colon as a mark of punctuation with the colon as ISBD punctuation, which aren't the same thing.  This practice seems to have carried over into RDA.
>>
>> As long as we're still dependent on text strings for unique identification, I thing that the string Integration through law: the role of law and the rule of law in ASEAN integration goes a long way (both literally and figuratively!) in identifying the series uniquely.
>>
>> I think that this text string
>> Integration through law: the role of law and the rule of law in ASEAN
>> integration
>>
>> Identifies the series in a better way than this text string
>> Integration through law (Cambridge University Press)
>>
>> Or this text string:
>> Integration through law (New York, N.Y.)
>>
>> It all depends, of course, on what you consider to be the title proper of the series.
>>
>> I think that Integration through law: the role of law and the rule of law in ASEAN integration is much clearer to a user as an access point than Integration through law (Cambridge University Press).
>>
>> These comments aren't meant to be a criticism of the advice that Amy offered.  I just wanted to articulate a different perspective.
>>
>> Gene
>>
>> Eugene Dickerson
>> Team Leader for Cataloging
>> Ralph J. Bunche Library
>> U.S. Department of State
>> Washington, DC
>> [log in to unmask]
>> (202) 647-2191 (voice)
>>
>> No part of any article sent to you by the Bunche Library can be
>> reproduced, distributed, or transmitted without prior written
>> permission of the publisher. The exception are brief quotations.  For
>> a synopsis click here:
>> http://diplopedia.state.gov/index.php?title=Copyright:_Synopsis_of_Imp
>> ortant_Facts (Link not valid outside the Department of State.)
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Amy Turner
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 2:51 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [PCCLIST] Need help with a series title
>>
>> 1. The other title information can show up in the authority record in
>> the 670 field (reflecting the 490) or it can be given in a 667 field
>> (see for example n  96048920).  If you think people are likely to see
>> the other title information as the title, it can be used as a 430 (be
>> sure to check for conflicts)
>>
>> 2. The qualifier (Series) is not needed because you are not distinguishing from a title that is not a series or from a corporate body.  Having checked that "Cambridge University Press" is established in the LCNAF, I would set this up as:
>>
>> Integration through law (Cambridge University Press)
>>
>> 3. The rule for sources of series information is to work your way down the hierarchy until you find something, then keep going if there are variants.   So the title page verso is a valid source for numbering that is not found in a more preferred source.
>>
>> Forgive me for not citing rule numbers here.  Under AACR2, a lot of information about series was found only in LCRIs, sometimes only in training material, and I'm still slow at finding things in RDA.  Others can chime in if I have missed anything in this seat-of-the pants answer.
>>
>> Hope this helps,
>>
>> Amy
>>
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Program for Cooperative Cataloging
>> [http://redirect.state.sbu/?url=mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>> Behalf Of Yan Liao
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 1:54 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: [PCCLIST] Need help with a series title
>>
>> Folks, we have a bit complex situation regarding to establishing a series title.
>>
>> The book title is Rules of origin in ASEAN. On the book cover and
>> series title page, it has Integration Through Law (big font) The Role
>> of Law and the Rule of Law in ASEAN Integration (small fonts) (no
>> numbering info on cover or title page)
>>
>> On the title page verso, it has: Integration through law: the role of
>> law and the rule of law in asean integration ; 1
>>
>> In the publisher's website, it has Integration through law: the role of law and the rule of law in ASEAN integration  http://redirect.state.sbu/?url=http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/law/public-international-law/series/integration-through-law-role-law-and-rule-law-asean-integration with no numbering info.
>>
>> While searching authority file, there is already another series title established for Integration through law.
>>
>> Here are the questions:
>> 1. Should the other title info (the role of law and the rule of law in asean integration) be included in the authority record in this case? Or it can only show up in 490 (based on RDA 2.12.4)?
>>
>> 2. Normally we don't use other title information to distinguish series title, but rather using form of the title/other institution/place of the publication, etc. as additional qualifier. So under the case, should 830 for the series title be:
>> Integration through law (Series) (Cambridge University Press)?
>>
>> 3. Should I include the numbering info? BTW: if trust the numbering info on the t.p, verso (2.12.9), the starting year of the series would be 2015.
>>
>> This email is UNCLASSIFIED.
>>
>>
>>
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Adam L. Schiff
> Principal Cataloger
> University of Washington Libraries
> Box 352900
> Seattle, WA 98195-2900
> (206) 543-8409
> (206) 685-8782 fax
> [log in to unmask]
> http://faculty.washington.edu/~aschiff
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Adam L. Schiff
Principal Cataloger
University of Washington Libraries
Box 352900
Seattle, WA 98195-2900
(206) 543-8409
(206) 685-8782 fax
[log in to unmask]
http://faculty.washington.edu/~aschiff
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~