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Hi Jim:

That's useful data, but I wish it were updated each year or two, and included more software.

Some data points not in the study:

Sony Soundforge 9 and 10 do not recognize tags added to WAV files by dBPowerAmp (and 
editable/authorable with Tag&Rename software). Same story for the latest iTunes for Windows 
(12.1.etc). Soundforge does allow metadata authoring, but it seems to be attached somewhere else 
from where dBPowerAmp attaches tags.

HOWEVER, I just experimented with importing and playing a CD resolution WAV file in iTunes for 
Windows 12.1, and according to my DAC it's outputting PCM 44.1/16. So, at some point, Apple changed 
iTunes for Windows so it doesn't grind WAV through the Quicktime engine in an interim format. Also, 
I did not notice the sound degradation I noticed with the older iTunes version (circa 2011). So 
that's good news!

By the way, I very much appreciate this whole thread. Again, very much new info to me. I wish there 
could be dead-set, no-violation standards for this metadata, so all software handles it the same. 
It's important!

-- Tom Fine

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Sam" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] another file format question


> Yes, like I said, it's out of date as to what supports what, but a good
> overview of what I think Tom was asking about.
>
> On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Steven Smolian <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> I assume these specs have changed since 2011.
>>
>> Wavelab 8.0 doesn't do the whole thing.  Wavelab 8.5, issued last year,
>> does.
>>
>> Steve Smolian
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:
>> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jim Sam
>> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 4:45 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] another file format question
>>
>> Tom,
>>
>> Getting back to your question about different programs having difference
>> levels of support for embedded metadata, though out of date, it'd be worth
>> your while to go over this study:
>> http://www.arsc-audio.org/pdf/ARSC_TC_MD_Study.pdf
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 11:02 AM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Ditto on the thanks to Dave Rice. I have learned quite a bit about
>> > this topic today. I still won't use FLAC as my primary PCM-write
>> > format, but I use it all over my house and studio as a backup and
>> stream-access format.
>> >
>> > It's also worth noting, along the lines of what Paul Stamlber said,
>> > that because FLAC files reduce the storage need per second of audio,
>> > it's a great format for transmission and also for the new generation
>> > of portable players such as by Sony, Pono and A&K.
>> >
>> > Given that no other major company except Apple seems to have
>> > patent-lawyer issues with FLAC's open-source-ness, I will opine that
>> > this is a phantom menace created by Apple to justify sticking with
>> > their proprietary lossless format. If lossless downloads ever catch on
>> > mass-market with Amazon and Google, it's more likely that Apple
>> > gadgets and computers will deal with FLAC natively, and less likely
>> > that mass-market retailers will go to the trouble of selling
>> > proprietary ALAC alongside open-source FLAC. For what it's worth, on a
>> > modern (circa 2013) Windows 7 Lenovo workstation, ripping a CD to FLAC
>> > using dBPowerAmp takes less than 1/4 the time of ripping the same CD to
>> ALAC in the latest iTunes for Windows.
>> >
>> > -- Tom Fine
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard L. Hess" <
>> > [log in to unmask]>
>> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> > Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 1:46 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] another file format question
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >  Hi, Tom,
>> >>
>> >> iZotope has an option to save all metadata (as apparently does FLAC
>> >> (the container)). Otherwise, only metadata the program knows about is
>> saved.
>> >>
>> >> Hi, Dave,
>> >>
>> >> One thing we have is the ability to embed MD5 checksums in WAV files
>> >> with the custom-written software BWFMETAEDIT. However, I have found
>> >> this software a bit problematic from time to time. It was sponsored
>> >> by a US Federal Government initiative.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for the further insight. This was the type of discussion I was
>> >> hoping to engender when I posted the original message.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers,
>> >>
>> >> Richard
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 2015-05-18 1:25 PM, Tom Fine wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hi Dave Rice, et al:
>> >>>
>> >>> Another question about the WAV file format. Why is dBPowerAmp's CD
>> >>> ripper able to write tag metadata to WAV files, and all of my
>> >>> various player software able to read them (Foobar2000, iTunes for
>> >>> Windows, Logitech server and player software), but if I open the WAV
>> >>> file in Sony Soundforge, do anything to it and then save it, the tag
>> >>> information is gone? Also, someone I sent one of these WAV files
>> >>> claimed his software
>> >>> -- either Protools or Logic -- said the file was "corrupted." So
>> >>> what's going on there? Soundforge and Harrison Mixbus software for
>> >>> Windows have no trouble opening these WAV files, but seem to discard
>> >>> the tag info or at least don't save it when work has been done on the
>> file.
>> >>>
>> >>> -- Tom Fine
>> >>>
>> >>>  --
>> >> Richard L. Hess                   email: [log in to unmask]
>> >> Aurora, Ontario, Canada                             647 479 2800
>> >> http://www.richardhess.com/tape/contact.htm
>> >> Quality tape transfers -- even from hard-to-play tapes.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>
>