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I think I have a NOS VRII around here. Is it worth anything?
Shai

On 11/05/15 4:28 PM, Dave Burnham wrote:
> Tom
>
> Perhaps I didn't make myself clear; when I used a VRII, it wasn't an antique. GE had a luxury version with gold coloured metal and I got one of those directly from the factory. My tracking force was around 2.5 to 3 grams. Also, of course, you're right, a conical stylus would have put added wear on the narrower parts of the groove, but I don't remember my LPs of the day showing unusual wear from this effect. I'm talking about ca.1959 - 1962, a time when all mono cartridges had little vertical compliance, elliptical styli had yet to make an appearance and the VRII was still considered a high end cartridge. Something I don't know, was 1 mil the width of the cutting stylus, hence the widest part of the groove, or was it a compromise between the different widths of the groove?
>
> db
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On May 11, 2015, at 7:53 AM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Dave:
>>
>> What are you tracking at? The groove-gougers, including those using the old GE VR cartridges probably did the most damage by tracking too heavy. As far as I know, the VR's can't track any lower than 2 grams, but that should be OK if the alignment is A-OK and the tonearm is in working condition.
>>
>> For 78's, I think the wider grooves are somewhat heartier, so you can track heavier and use a less compliant cartridge without doing damage. After all, the records were designed to stand up to at least a couple dozen plays with a steel needle tracking at a half-pound or so!
>>
>> That said, I just don't think a circa 1950 cartridge has the technology to translate into electric signals all of the information in the grooves. I just wouldn't go there, but I'm glad you guys using the antiques are getting good results.
>>
>> -- Tom Fine
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Burnham" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2015 12:28 AM
>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Playing Edison Diamond discs
>>
>>
>>> As I've said previously, I used the VRII successfully for many years with no complaints. Certainly I would never play a stereo LP with this cartridge, not even a mono compatible one, but I never noticed damage to a mono LP or a 78 from using it.
>>>
>>> db
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On May 11, 2015, at 12:01 AM, Clark Johnsen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Agree totally with Tom -- in his first paragraph.>>
>>>> Beyond that, into the second one, he shifts from how well a cartridge (the
>>>> VRII) might play a record, into how it might wear a record out. Those are
>>>> two separate topics. While I myself have not experienced the wear-out,
>>>> owing to my discreet reluctance (not variable) to press ahead with repeated
>>>> playing, I can and do attest to its ability however to get great sound out
>>>> of 78s on the first playing. And on the second. Which is all one needs to
>>>> capture the signal.
>>>>
>>>> While I've said this before, perhaps it's worth repeating: As a
>>>> practitioner of "high-end audio" record playing, I have applied many of
>>>> those unusual procedures to my beloved 78s, to success. Nowhere online have
>>>> I seen anything about these practices, so what should I do with this
>>>> abstruse knowledge? Seriously. I'm asking.
>>>>
>>>> Please don't say, Make a cassette. Or, Make a CD. (I can't, anyway.) One
>>>> big improvement lies in the enhanced linearity of the bass, which requires
>>>> a full-range reproduction system to appreciate, which most folks don't
>>>> have. (Just sayin'.)
>>>>
>>>> clark
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Jamie:
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with most of what you're saying, but guys like Doug Pomeroy, who
>>>>> have a long track record of making excellent-sounding remasters from disks
>>>>> can read chapter and verse why doing EQ in the digital domain doesn't work
>>>>> as well. See Gary Galo's article in ARSC Journal, too. That said, I'm not
>>>>> averse to taking something back out to analog, I've always had good luck
>>>>> with it, so I don't see that as taboo (ie do what you suggest -- a flat
>>>>> transfer and your 45/45 processing in the digital realm, but then I'd take
>>>>> it back out to analog for proper de-emphasis EQ). I also don't think it's
>>>>> possible to totally remove surface noise and, in the case of heavily
>>>>> damaged grooves, all the ticks and pops without serious, horribly audible
>>>>> digital artifacts.  So going for "total removal of the disk medium" is a
>>>>> fool's errand, there comes a point where what's left is too thin sounding
>>>>> or inherently distorted so it's more annoying tham some surface noise
>>>>> masking the harsh distortion. The worthy goal that you're espousing, using
>>>>> modern digital tools, is to get as much music content out of the grooves
>>>>> and cancel out as much noise as possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, the description you wrote "the stylus is unyielding and gouges
>>>>> its way through pinch effect" exactly describes such record-wreckers as the
>>>>> GE variable reluctance cartridge. Those kinds of cartridges (including the
>>>>> cheapo 3-gram trackers included in the console systems) cored out the
>>>>> grooves on many a 1950's and 60's mono record, making them not worth buying
>>>>> even in the dollar bins at record stores.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Tom Fine
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamie Howarth" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2015 6:27 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Playing Edison Diamond discs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think what frustrates the discussion is that digital it is possible to
>>>>>> exactly duplicate what you are achieving mechanically plus a whole lot more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not that the stylus is unyielding and gouges its way through pinch
>>>>>> effect (one hopes). It's simply not wired to communicate what it's doing in
>>>>>> that axis. There is nothing magical about 45/45 coil placement that makes
>>>>>> it suck compared to 90/0... You want to use the GE? Terrific. It still
>>>>>> moves vertically it just couples the entire mass of the tone arm and
>>>>>> bearing to that motion rather than absorb it locally in the cantilever.
>>>>>> Terrific.
>>>>>> To each his own.
>>>>>> Every iota of geometry in the groove/stylus interface can be deduced from
>>>>>> 45/45. All of the mechanical noise cancellation or the facsimile thereof
>>>>>> achieved via wiring for 90/0 can be achieved digitally, and then some.
>>>>>> I'll bet Ortofon says nothing about doing the declick and cleanup from a
>>>>>> non-de-emphasized digitization but it's a good idea before all the bass
>>>>>> boost and treble rolloff. Do the RIAA or whatever curve afterward. Slap
>>>>>> some on in the monitor so you know what you're listening to. But preserve
>>>>>> and restore right off the cartridge. Don't bake in anything that loses
>>>>>> information.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please pardon the misspellings and occassional insane word substitution
>>>>>> I'm on an iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 8, 2015, at 4:56 PM, "Goran Finnberg [log in to unmask]" <
>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dough Pomeroy:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are not the only responder to
>>>>>>>> have stated that a mono mix should
>>>>>>>> be made before de-clicking and other
>>>>>>>> noise removal work is done.  I have
>>>>>>>> heard this view stated in the past, but
>>>>>>>> I can't agree.
>>>>>>> And now for the ultimate way to recover the most from any lateral cut
>>>>>>> mono disk record:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://ortofon.com/hifi/products/cartridges/2m-series/2m-mono-se
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Why should you use a dedicated mono cartridge for playing vinyl mono
>>>>>>> records?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On a mono record the signal is cut only in the lateral dimension whereas
>>>>>>> a stereo record is cut at +/- 45 degrees into the opposing groove-walls,
>>>>>>> see figure to the right.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A stereo cartridge will be able to replay stereo and mono records,
>>>>>>> because mono is a special version of stereo where the right and left
>>>>>>> channels are identical.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While a stereo cartridge can play mono records it can’t achieve the same
>>>>>>> signal precision between the two channels. A mono cartridge produces but
>>>>>>> one signal that is directed to both channels in the system. A mono
>>>>>>> cartridge playing a mono record produces a more forceful and stable image
>>>>>>> with a fuller, more impactful sound.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another big advantage in using a mono cartridge to play mono records is
>>>>>>> the absence of response to vertical movement. This means that a mono
>>>>>>> cartridge is basically immune to the pinching effect which comes into
>>>>>>> action when the stylus is pushed vertically upward in very narrow grooves.
>>>>>>> Also the response to dust, dirt and wear is reduced substantially. The
>>>>>>> final result will be a clean and noiseless reproduction of the mono record.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The listening experience will be significantly improved when using a
>>>>>>> high quality true mono cartridge for the replay of your mono records."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> End Quote Ortofon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1/ Complete removal of the pinch distortion that can reach up to 30 %
>>>>>>> second harmonic when played by a stereo cartridge.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2/ Free removal of dust dirt ticks and scratches and audible distortion
>>>>>>> caused by wear.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3/ Up to 20 dB less rumble by using an only horisontal sensing replay
>>>>>>> device that excludes the vertical component where all the rumble hides..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Makes the uses of digital click/crackle/hiss removal tools much more
>>>>>>> effective.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So ditch all your stereo catridges and play the disks as they were meant
>>>>>>> to be played !!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I find the best contemporary digital
>>>>>>>> de-clickers are so good that they
>>>>>>>> fully remove the distortions caused
>>>>>>>> by scratches. Once these and other
>>>>>>>> defects are replaced by sound
>>>>>>>> synthesized from surrounding audio,
>>>>>>>> they effectively vanish and do not
>>>>>>>> depend on mixing for removal.
>>>>>>> By using a true lateral responding device only then the digital noise
>>>>>>> removal tools work much faster since there is less to do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As you have mentioned, the stereo
>>>>>>>> transfer of a lateral recording allows
>>>>>>>> distorted areas on only one groove
>>>>>>>> wall to be manually replaced by a
>>>>>>>> less distorted section from the
>>>>>>>> corresponding section from the
>>>>>>>> opposite wall, and this is indeed a
>>>>>>>> powerful tool.
>>>>>>> And you have lost 3 dB S/N that is free when using a lateral responding
>>>>>>> device only.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A mono mix prior to de-clicking just
>>>>>>>> combines the non-vertical noise from
>>>>>>>> both channels. I find processing the
>>>>>>>> stereo before making the mono to
>>>>>>>> be a superior approach, but I understand
>>>>>>>> there are those who disagree.
>>>>>>> Thus the noise increases 3 dB because it is not correlated ie is not in
>>>>>>> phase between L/R.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The audio signal, is identical on the left or right track thus when
>>>>>>> combined increases by +6dB thus we always gain +3 dB net by using a lateral
>>>>>>> responding device which we get by summing L+R.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It´s free. to do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But then the very best to get the most out of any lateral recorded disk
>>>>>>> is a lateral responding, mono only, cartridge as stated by Ortofon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because then we remove all the imperfections in using a stereo cartridge
>>>>>>> trying to extract the audio from lateral cut disks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The EMT OFD65 with a truncated elliptical is very good for 78´s.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And it is a lateral responding only device too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Goran Finnberg
>>>>>>> The Mastering Room AB
>>>>>>> Goteborg
>>>>>>> Sweden
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> E-mail: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Learn from the mistakes of others, you can never live long enough to
>>>>>>> make them all yourself.    -   John Luther
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (\__/)
>>>>>>> (='.'=)
>>>>>>> (")_(") Smurfen:RIP

-- 
Cheers
Shai Drori
Timeless Recordings
[log in to unmask]
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