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One last comment about the "war" -- it was apparently only among collectors and hardcore fans. 
Record companies were perfectly happy to record and release both kinds of jazz. I previously cited 
Blue Note. There's also the fact that Contemporary's parent company made plenty of money off the 
Firehouse Five, reissues of Jazz Man sides AND Sonny Rollins "Way Out West", not to mention 
Keepnews/Riverside not only reissuing original hot jazz at the same time Monk was creating a whole 
different kind of jazz piano style on the label. And Norman Granz was happy to play both sides of 
the "war." I wish I had asked my father more about those days, because he was doing all sorts of 
work with both kinds of jazz in NY. He recorded "Charlie Parker with Strings" as well as 
Parker/Machito sessions and some of the sides for Norman Granz's "The Jazz Scene," and also did 
"revival" sides for Swan and Mercury. Plus there was also a Latin/rhumba jazz-like craze in NY at 
the time.

It's also interesting that this tension among jazz fans arose in the 1940s. In other arts, including 
classical music, the fights between modernists and "romantics" took place at the turn of the century 
up to WWI.

A final tip of the hat to the "moldy figs" -- it's good they wouldn't let the Dixieland sounds and 
styles die. It's great music, fun to hear and when it's expertly played it's really something to 
behold. If you listen to the revivalists and find them a bit up-tempo or polished for your tastes, 
check out Atlantic's recordings made in New Orleans in the late 50's and early 60's, including the 
first Preservation Hall recordings. The show where the music had gone in New Orleans over a half 
century, and it was somewhat slower and darker and more raw than what the young turks were playing 
in NY and CA studios. This is the same Atlantic that just a couple of years later released John 
Coltrane "Giant Steps" and Ornette Coleman "The Shape of Jazz to Come."

-- Tom Fine

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Radlauer" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2015 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Apology if that was unnecessarily heated


> Tom --
>
> Nicely put and you nailed Cullum.  Yes, tribalism is Jazz dates back to the
> late Forties early Fifties when the "War in Jazz" began between modernists
> and moldy figs (revivalist).
>
> Clearly the tribes still clash from time to time.
>
> Dave
>
> **************
>
> On Sun, May 24, 2015 at 6:30 AM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Clark:
>>
>> One man's opinion .. Riverwalk offers interesting tales from history (if
>> sanitized and politically corrected through the NPR filter, which has a
>> very distinct view of American history that doesn't always match facts of
>> the times), and I really enjoy the shows where they have old time players
>> talking about the old times (a highlight was Clark Terry talking about
>> rooming with Count Basie). But, the live music is a different story. Cullum
>> himself insists on taking the flashy solos and often flubs notes and plays
>> clams. It's embarassing and it's not good jazz. I'm very atuned to brass
>> guys playing in tune and hitting their notes, if they don't it's not
>> enjoyable music to my ears.
>>
>> Just to make another point how all of this is connected, and why arguments
>> about what jazz is "best" are foolish if they get too overheated (but
>> they're fun as a civilized intellectual exercise) --  keep in mind that
>> Blue Note Records, that label best known now for hip-and-cool hard bop
>> classics, started out by releasing some great stride piano sides. The first
>> day of Blue Note was Albert Ammons and Meade "Lux" Lewis. Look at Blue
>> Notes first years, pre-bebop:
>>
>> http://www.jazzdisco.org/blue-note-records/discography-1939-1944/session-index/
>> It was all "old-timers" and Dixieland revivalists!
>>
>> It's all interconnceted, so forming "tribes" is a silly exercise. I do
>> think there were "tribes" back in the 50s, among that tiny niche group of
>> hardcore jazz fans and record collectors, but who cares about that now?
>> Much of it is out there for free listening on Spotify and other streamers
>> --  in modern times, people should come to jazz on their own terms and find
>> their own tastes.
>>
>> -- Tom Fine
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clark Johnsen" <[log in to unmask]
>> >
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2015 10:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Apology if that was unnecessarily heated
>>
>>
>>  ​Guys, guys!
>>>
>>> Take a concerted break together and skip the solos (if I may say). It has
>>> been for me instructive to read all the good stuff y'all had to write. Now
>>> let me add twopence from my vast ignorance of the field.
>>>
>>> It seems to me that most current knowledge of jazz history derives from
>>> recordings, which impose their own template on developments.
>>>
>>> Before he died I listened every week to Ray Smith's Jazz Decades radio
>>> show, which taught me most of whatever I know about the decades in this
>>> discussion. The shows are online at
>>> http://www.wgbh.org/audioPlayers/jazzDecades.cfm and sound as good as
>>> ever.
>>> He was a player too and therefore closer to the music than most DJs.
>>>
>>> Although it wasn't broadcast in Boston, whenever on the road I greatly
>>> enjoyed picking up Jim Cullum's Riverwalk Jazz radio show, in which his
>>> versatile band recreated
>>> many styles, along with stories told by era participants. It too is
>>> online:
>>> http://riverwalkjazz.stanford.edu/
>>>
>>> clark
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 23, 2015 at 4:10 PM, Aaron Levinson <
>>> [log in to unmask]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Yeah I actually didn't "denigrate" anything Dave which makes your whole
>>>> attitude on this subject that much more baffling to me and many others
>>>> here. You apparently love just making things up and them randomly
>>>> ascribing
>>>> them to other people.
>>>>
>>>> "Some people" I guess are just wildly insecure and need to act out in a
>>>> way that is both undignified and bewildering!
>>>>
>>>> Good luck with that...
>>>>
>>>> AA
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> > On May 23, 2015, at 3:52 PM, Dave Radlauer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Aaron --
>>>> >
>>>> >>> you seem intent upon elevating it at the expense of other things <<
>>>> >
>>>> > And I don't understand why *some people* --  and this is part of my
>>>> > complaint about contemporary American culture in general  --  insist on
>>>> > denigrating it at the expense of other things.
>>>> >
>>>> > Opinions.  We've all got 'em
>>>> >
>>>> > Dave
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sat, May 23, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Aaron Levinson <
>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Dave-
>>>> >>
>>>> >> First,  I didn't "invalidate"anything so please don't attempt to speak
>>>> for
>>>> >> me that's equally offensive and petulant. I asked you to back up your
>>>> own
>>>> >> assertion of a "significant black audience", I did not make the case
>>>> for
>>>> >> that barometer in the first place I simply asked for YOUR evidence to
>>>> >> buttress your contention.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> You failed to provide it and then attempted to back pedal and dismiss
>>>> its
>>>> >> importance. I stand by my simple assertion of trad jazz as atavistic
>>>> >> despite you looking it up in the dictionary.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Listen you love it and that's great have at it I'm genuinely happy you
>>>> >> are doing the work but you seem intent upon elevating it at the
>>>> expense
>>>> of
>>>> >> other things and that strikes me as both petty and mean-spirited and
>>>> >> beneath you and everyone else on this list.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> AA
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> On May 23, 2015, at 1:19 PM, Dave Radlauer <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
> -- 
> hm# 510-848-8323
> cell# 510-717-5240
> www.JAZZHOTBigstep.com
>
>