A question if you will:
What does NOS stand for?

Ben Roth

-----Original Message-----
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Shai Drori
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 12:35 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Playing Edison Diamond discs

I think I have a NOS VRII around here. Is it worth anything?

On 11/05/15 4:28 PM, Dave Burnham wrote:
> Tom
> Perhaps I didn't make myself clear; when I used a VRII, it wasn't an antique. GE had a luxury version with gold coloured metal and I got one of those directly from the factory. My tracking force was around 2.5 to 3 grams. Also, of course, you're right, a conical stylus would have put added wear on the narrower parts of the groove, but I don't remember my LPs of the day showing unusual wear from this effect. I'm talking about ca.1959 - 1962, a time when all mono cartridges had little vertical compliance, elliptical styli had yet to make an appearance and the VRII was still considered a high end cartridge. Something I don't know, was 1 mil the width of the cutting stylus, hence the widest part of the groove, or was it a compromise between the different widths of the groove?
> db
> Sent from my iPhone
>> On May 11, 2015, at 7:53 AM, Tom Fine <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> Hi Dave:
>> What are you tracking at? The groove-gougers, including those using the old GE VR cartridges probably did the most damage by tracking too heavy. As far as I know, the VR's can't track any lower than 2 grams, but that should be OK if the alignment is A-OK and the tonearm is in working condition.
>> For 78's, I think the wider grooves are somewhat heartier, so you can track heavier and use a less compliant cartridge without doing damage. After all, the records were designed to stand up to at least a couple dozen plays with a steel needle tracking at a half-pound or so!
>> That said, I just don't think a circa 1950 cartridge has the technology to translate into electric signals all of the information in the grooves. I just wouldn't go there, but I'm glad you guys using the antiques are getting good results.
>> -- Tom Fine
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Burnham" 
>> <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2015 12:28 AM
>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Playing Edison Diamond discs
>>> As I've said previously, I used the VRII successfully for many years with no complaints. Certainly I would never play a stereo LP with this cartridge, not even a mono compatible one, but I never noticed damage to a mono LP or a 78 from using it.
>>> db
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> On May 11, 2015, at 12:01 AM, Clark Johnsen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>> Agree totally with Tom -- in his first paragraph.>> Beyond that, 
>>>> into the second one, he shifts from how well a cartridge (the
>>>> VRII) might play a record, into how it might wear a record out. 
>>>> Those are two separate topics. While I myself have not experienced 
>>>> the wear-out, owing to my discreet reluctance (not variable) to 
>>>> press ahead with repeated playing, I can and do attest to its 
>>>> ability however to get great sound out of 78s on the first playing. 
>>>> And on the second. Which is all one needs to capture the signal.
>>>> While I've said this before, perhaps it's worth repeating: As a 
>>>> practitioner of "high-end audio" record playing, I have applied 
>>>> many of those unusual procedures to my beloved 78s, to success. 
>>>> Nowhere online have I seen anything about these practices, so what 
>>>> should I do with this abstruse knowledge? Seriously. I'm asking.
>>>> Please don't say, Make a cassette. Or, Make a CD. (I can't, 
>>>> anyway.) One big improvement lies in the enhanced linearity of the 
>>>> bass, which requires a full-range reproduction system to 
>>>> appreciate, which most folks don't have. (Just sayin'.)
>>>> clark
>>>> On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Tom Fine 
>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Jamie:
>>>>> I agree with most of what you're saying, but guys like Doug 
>>>>> Pomeroy, who have a long track record of making excellent-sounding 
>>>>> remasters from disks can read chapter and verse why doing EQ in 
>>>>> the digital domain doesn't work as well. See Gary Galo's article 
>>>>> in ARSC Journal, too. That said, I'm not averse to taking 
>>>>> something back out to analog, I've always had good luck with it, 
>>>>> so I don't see that as taboo (ie do what you suggest -- a flat 
>>>>> transfer and your 45/45 processing in the digital realm, but then 
>>>>> I'd take it back out to analog for proper de-emphasis EQ). I also 
>>>>> don't think it's possible to totally remove surface noise and, in 
>>>>> the case of heavily damaged grooves, all the ticks and pops 
>>>>> without serious, horribly audible digital artifacts.  So going for 
>>>>> "total removal of the disk medium" is a fool's errand, there comes 
>>>>> a point where what's left is too thin sounding or inherently 
>>>>> distorted so it's more annoying tham some surface noise masking 
>>>>> the harsh distortion. The worthy goal that you're espousing, using modern digital tools, is to get as much music content out of the grooves and cancel out as much noise as possible.
>>>>> By the way, the description you wrote "the stylus is unyielding 
>>>>> and gouges its way through pinch effect" exactly describes such 
>>>>> record-wreckers as the GE variable reluctance cartridge. Those 
>>>>> kinds of cartridges (including the cheapo 3-gram trackers included 
>>>>> in the console systems) cored out the grooves on many a 1950's and 
>>>>> 60's mono record, making them not worth buying even in the dollar bins at record stores.
>>>>> -- Tom Fine
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamie Howarth" 
>>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2015 6:27 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Playing Edison Diamond discs
>>>>> I think what frustrates the discussion is that digital it is 
>>>>> possible to
>>>>>> exactly duplicate what you are achieving mechanically plus a whole lot more.
>>>>>> It's not that the stylus is unyielding and gouges its way through 
>>>>>> pinch effect (one hopes). It's simply not wired to communicate 
>>>>>> what it's doing in that axis. There is nothing magical about 
>>>>>> 45/45 coil placement that makes it suck compared to 90/0... You 
>>>>>> want to use the GE? Terrific. It still moves vertically it just 
>>>>>> couples the entire mass of the tone arm and bearing to that motion rather than absorb it locally in the cantilever.
>>>>>> Terrific.
>>>>>> To each his own.
>>>>>> Every iota of geometry in the groove/stylus interface can be 
>>>>>> deduced from 45/45. All of the mechanical noise cancellation or 
>>>>>> the facsimile thereof achieved via wiring for 90/0 can be achieved digitally, and then some.
>>>>>> I'll bet Ortofon says nothing about doing the declick and cleanup 
>>>>>> from a non-de-emphasized digitization but it's a good idea before 
>>>>>> all the bass boost and treble rolloff. Do the RIAA or whatever 
>>>>>> curve afterward. Slap some on in the monitor so you know what 
>>>>>> you're listening to. But preserve and restore right off the 
>>>>>> cartridge. Don't bake in anything that loses information.
>>>>>> Please pardon the misspellings and occassional insane word 
>>>>>> substitution I'm on an iPhone
>>>>>> On May 8, 2015, at 4:56 PM, "Goran Finnberg [log in to unmask]" 
>>>>>> <
>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>> Dough Pomeroy:
>>>>>>> You are not the only responder to
>>>>>>>> have stated that a mono mix should be made before de-clicking 
>>>>>>>> and other noise removal work is done.  I have heard this view 
>>>>>>>> stated in the past, but I can't agree.
>>>>>>> And now for the ultimate way to recover the most from any 
>>>>>>> lateral cut mono disk record:
>>>>>>> "Why should you use a dedicated mono cartridge for playing vinyl 
>>>>>>> mono records?
>>>>>>> On a mono record the signal is cut only in the lateral dimension 
>>>>>>> whereas a stereo record is cut at +/- 45 degrees into the 
>>>>>>> opposing groove-walls, see figure to the right.
>>>>>>> A stereo cartridge will be able to replay stereo and mono 
>>>>>>> records, because mono is a special version of stereo where the 
>>>>>>> right and left channels are identical.
>>>>>>> While a stereo cartridge can play mono records it can’t achieve 
>>>>>>> the same signal precision between the two channels. A mono 
>>>>>>> cartridge produces but one signal that is directed to both 
>>>>>>> channels in the system. A mono cartridge playing a mono record 
>>>>>>> produces a more forceful and stable image with a fuller, more impactful sound.
>>>>>>> Another big advantage in using a mono cartridge to play mono 
>>>>>>> records is the absence of response to vertical movement. This 
>>>>>>> means that a mono cartridge is basically immune to the pinching 
>>>>>>> effect which comes into action when the stylus is pushed vertically upward in very narrow grooves.
>>>>>>> Also the response to dust, dirt and wear is reduced 
>>>>>>> substantially. The final result will be a clean and noiseless reproduction of the mono record.
>>>>>>> The listening experience will be significantly improved when 
>>>>>>> using a high quality true mono cartridge for the replay of your mono records."
>>>>>>> End Quote Ortofon.
>>>>>>> 1/ Complete removal of the pinch distortion that can reach up to 
>>>>>>> 30 % second harmonic when played by a stereo cartridge.
>>>>>>> 2/ Free removal of dust dirt ticks and scratches and audible 
>>>>>>> distortion caused by wear.
>>>>>>> 3/ Up to 20 dB less rumble by using an only horisontal sensing 
>>>>>>> replay device that excludes the vertical component where all the rumble hides..
>>>>>>> Makes the uses of digital click/crackle/hiss removal tools much 
>>>>>>> more effective.
>>>>>>> So ditch all your stereo catridges and play the disks as they 
>>>>>>> were meant to be played !!!
>>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>> I find the best contemporary digital
>>>>>>>> de-clickers are so good that they fully remove the distortions 
>>>>>>>> caused by scratches. Once these and other defects are replaced 
>>>>>>>> by sound synthesized from surrounding audio, they effectively 
>>>>>>>> vanish and do not depend on mixing for removal.
>>>>>>> By using a true lateral responding device only then the digital 
>>>>>>> noise removal tools work much faster since there is less to do.
>>>>>>> As you have mentioned, the stereo
>>>>>>>> transfer of a lateral recording allows distorted areas on only 
>>>>>>>> one groove wall to be manually replaced by a less distorted 
>>>>>>>> section from the corresponding section from the opposite wall, 
>>>>>>>> and this is indeed a powerful tool.
>>>>>>> And you have lost 3 dB S/N that is free when using a lateral 
>>>>>>> responding device only.
>>>>>>> A mono mix prior to de-clicking just
>>>>>>>> combines the non-vertical noise from both channels. I find 
>>>>>>>> processing the stereo before making the mono to be a superior 
>>>>>>>> approach, but I understand there are those who disagree.
>>>>>>> Thus the noise increases 3 dB because it is not correlated ie is 
>>>>>>> not in phase between L/R.
>>>>>>> The audio signal, is identical on the left or right track thus 
>>>>>>> when combined increases by +6dB thus we always gain +3 dB net by 
>>>>>>> using a lateral responding device which we get by summing L+R.
>>>>>>> It´s free. to do.
>>>>>>> But then the very best to get the most out of any lateral 
>>>>>>> recorded disk is a lateral responding, mono only, cartridge as stated by Ortofon.
>>>>>>> Because then we remove all the imperfections in using a stereo 
>>>>>>> cartridge trying to extract the audio from lateral cut disks.
>>>>>>> The EMT OFD65 with a truncated elliptical is very good for 78´s.
>>>>>>> And it is a lateral responding only device too.
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>> Goran Finnberg
>>>>>>> The Mastering Room AB
>>>>>>> Goteborg
>>>>>>> Sweden
>>>>>>> E-mail: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>> Learn from the mistakes of others, you can never live long enough to
>>>>>>> make them all yourself.    -   John Luther
>>>>>>> (\__/)
>>>>>>> (='.'=)
>>>>>>> (")_(") Smurfen:RIP

Shai Drori
Timeless Recordings
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שי דרורי
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