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Using a low compliance cartridge is not what I would recommend for playing fragile recordings.

As for the "strangeness" it's simple algebra. The S in the ME is pure vertical so how is that "not getting back to hill and dale"? That is hill and dale. 

Adding L or or -L or R or -R back into the S at appropriate levels. gives the equivalent of various motions including diagonal so it's similar I guess to what you call "cutting another disc". 

I've found this useful for de fuzzing by isolating the clipped part of one of these angles (often the outer groove has more wear and since the interstitial geometry is never exactly perpendicular sometimes goosing that with a little delay and/or azimuth tracking will yield the precision needed to get the fuzz to cancel. 

Sorry if you've already tried some of this and it hasn't worked for you, but it works. 

Using the GE will be rough on the record and won't communicate all the data in the groove. A rather draconian approach to cancelling out unwanted noise, no? 



Please pardon the misspellings and occassional insane word substitution I'm on an iPhone

> On May 5, 2015, at 11:15 PM, Clark Johnsen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> ‚ÄčOh, so *that's* why I love my VRIIs. Best explanation I've heard.
> 
> I still use my Junior High School VRII !
> 
>> On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 8:04 PM, DAVID BURNHAM <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> 
>> Mr. Howarth
>> There are so many strange things in what you say, but to isolate a couple
>> of them, unless you are cutting another disc, (highly unlikely), you never
>> get back to hill and dale.  I think what you are trying to say is that if
>> you isolate and address all the noise on each channel separtately and then
>> recombine you will get closer to the original desired signal.  I used to do
>> that but I soon discovered that you really don't accomplish anything and if
>> you combine the channels to mono first and then remove the crackle and
>> noise, the signal comes out even cleaner, since your nr system has less
>> noise to deal with so it can do it more efficiently.
>> 
>> I fix a lot of mono lateral recordings by converting to MS and treating
>> the vertical and horizontally independently then recombining. Often the
>> garbage in the vertical can be isolated and added back into the lateral out
>> of polarity and it cleans up dramatically.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On any lateral recording, the "M" is all lateral, (as is the desired
>> signal), and the "S" is all vertical. So on any lateral recording, the "S"
>> component is nothing but noise.  There's nothing you can do to the "S"
>> component which will be of any help when recombining it with the "M"
>> component.  All it can do is introduce more noise, if it does anything at
>> all.  More is accomplished simply by combining to two channels into mono,
>> which completely eliminates the vertical or "S" component.  If you're
>> dealing with a vertical cut record all the "M"s and "S"s in the foregoing
>> can be reversed.
>> 
>> Now a problem with using a stereo cartridge on 78s is that noise elements
>> on either side of the groove will show up when the channels are combined,
>> (just like if you play a stereo record and combine the channels, left only
>> and right only signals are still heard).  If, however, you use a cartridge
>> like the old GE VRII, which has no vertical compliance at all, you will get
>> an ever cleaner rendering of your 78s because the stylus is backed by a
>> rubber cushion which prevents vertical movement.
>> 
>> db
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>     On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 6:32 PM, JAMES HOWARTH <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Digitizing in stereo also allows decrackling and declipping of the groove
>> walls independently then re-combining them to get back the hill and dale.
>> I fix a lot of mono lateral recordings by converting to MS and treating
>> the vertical and horizontally independently then recombining. Often the
>> garbage in the vertical can be isolated and added back into the lateral out
>> of polarity and it cleans up dramatically.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 5, 2015, at 5:58 PM, Mickey Clark <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Mr. Roth - all I meant is that you can have the cartridge phased
>> normally i.e. when you play a modern stereo record, it will be correct. You
>> don't need to physically re-wire your cartridge unless you intend to just
>> listen to the music. When I'm recording, I have the volume low because I am
>> more concerned with listening to the final product. When I said out of
>> phase I meant out of phase for vertical records. I have one turtable I use
>> for almost all recording and like to keep is simple - I still have about
>> 100 diamond discs  - would you like a list? -Mickey
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Follow me on Twitter
>>> https://twitter.com/MickeyRClark
>>> M.C.Productions Vintage Recordings
>>> 710 Westminster Ave. West
>>>           Penticton BC
>>>             V2A 1K8
>>>         1-250-462-7881
>>> http://mcproductions.ca
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Roth" <[log in to unmask]>
>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:19 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Playing Edison Diamond discs
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Greetings, Mr. Clark
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you for responding to my inquiry.
>>>> 
>>>> I'm not quite sure what you meant by "record in stereo (out of phase)".
>>>> Are you referring to the wiring of the cartridge for vertical grooves?
>>>> 
>>>> Also, "invert the phase of one channel" and combine for mono.
>>>> I use Sony Sound Forge 9 which has an "Invert/Flip" tool.
>>>> It turns the wave of that channel upside down.
>>>> Is that what I need to do?
>>>> Please explain a little further.
>>>> Thank you.
>>>> 
>>>> Ben Roth
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List [mailto:
>> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mickey Clark
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 11:53 AM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Playing Edison Diamond discs
>>>> 
>>>> If you're using a computer, you can record in stereo (out of phase) ,
>> then using a wave editor, invert the phase of one channel, then combine for
>> mono.
>>>> I know the process - and the sound will be horrible until you combine
>> the tracks for mono - then all the noices will miraculously disappear!!! I
>> use the same cartridge for modern stereo and verticals - saves a lot of
>> hassle to do it this way and you don't need a designated cartridge wired
>> for verticals - Mickey Clark
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Follow me on Twitter
>>>> https://twitter.com/MickeyRClark
>>>> M.C.Productions Vintage Recordings
>>>> 710 Westminster Ave. West
>>>>           Penticton BC
>>>>             V2A 1K8
>>>>         1-250-462-7881
>>>> http://mcproductions.ca
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "James Roth" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 7:58 AM
>>>> Subject: [ARSCLIST] Playing Edison Diamond discs
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am transferring Edison Diamond disks.
>>>>> I'm using a Shure M44-7 with a 3.5 FCR stylus from Expert Stylus.
>>>>> I think I've rewired the leads properly for a hill-n-dale groove.
>>>>> The turntable is a Technics Quartz SL 1200 Mk 2.
>>>>> I'm using a KAB Great Sound Escort pre-amp.
>>>>> Still, the sound leaves much to be desired.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'm having an extra hard time transferring the Liszt 2nd Hungarian
>>>>> Rhapsody p/b Rachmaninoff.
>>>>> Any suggestions?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>> Ben Roth
>>>>> 
>>>>> P.S. I strongly dislike that cadenza of Rachmaninoff!  I don't think
>> Liszt
>>>>> would have like it either.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ---
>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>>>> http://www.avast.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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>> 
>> 
>>